>>2021087
>Remember when cycling was exciting?
>Now it's all static.
You're just getting old. These are classic symptoms of getting old and jaded. Nothing new under the sun.

This isn't a cycling issue this is a surly issue. Mark my words surly is going to go bust within 2 years. They've consistently refused to catch up to modernity and they're past the point of no return. Couple hundred bucks more and I can get a fully functional hydroformed gravel bike from Canyon with all the latest bells and whistles short of electronic shifting, meanwhile surly is insulting everyone with this "flat bar gravel bike" with microshit, gaspipe steel, quick release, and fucking BB5s, today, yes BB5s that is not a typo, in 2024, for a thousand bucks. Is *anyone* going to buy this thing? What's the market for this? Other than surly employees buying with their employee discount so they can give it to their DUI friend as a christmas present?

>>2021087
At this point it's better to just buy a somewhat in good shape used steel road bike and swap out the components yourself, brands like Surly, Trek or All City put a nice markup on bicycles that really just shouldn't be that expensive to begin with, I'd rather deal with an older frame, add some adapters and have a perfectly functional bike around 250-300 bucks instead.

>>2021133
All City is dead now, but ignoring that for a moment, both of those companies sell/sold relatively reasonable products consistent with current industry standards. Other than your preferred method of dumpster diving, can you name a company that you think sells good new bikes at a fair price today? I suspect you can't. So that brings me to the next question: when are (You) bringing a bike to market that fits your standard of reasonableness in terms of what the buyer gets for his money? Because clearly you have some pretty great connections and business acumen if you can beat the big players at their own game.

Surly seems like a remnant of 2012 era culture

>>2021130
>surly employees buying with their employee discount so they can give it to their DUI friend as a christmas present?
Kek

Yeah they've already annihilated their brand value and street cred. Such an incredible fall from grace. Upper management should be fired. They're squeezing every last penny while burning their credibility.

Velo Orange, crust, and Rene herse ate their lunch while they were asleep trying to appeal to ignorant Reddit bros who got into bikes last month after their polycule split up

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>>2021136
Surly employee detected.
Your company is shit and you exploit ignorant buyers. You know it and I know it.

You design your bikes around "perceived value" while aiming for higher and higher margins. That Preamble shit box is lower value than a $100 Craigslist multi track and we all know it. Hell if given the option I would pay MORE for a USED multitrack

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>>2021146
Not sure how we got from me bashing surly and arguably shilling canyon/trek/all city, to me being a surly employee, but at least (You) dodged the question so congrats to that

>>2021087
I was going to say that's only $100 more than the Marin Muirwoods so it doesn't seem that bad, then I saw the cable discs.
Lol no.

>>2021150
I'm waiting for the "but hydraulic is too much maintenance" cope replies

>>2021087
Shimano mt200 are $30 at msrp what is stopping companies from putting them on bikes like this

>>2021136
Poseidon was selling redwoods new for $500 that seemed pretty fair

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>>2021158
The preamble is micro shift
Economies of scale means it's cheaper to have two SKUs with the same parts
MS doesn't have a hydraulic shifter option a shimano/SRAM drop bar preamble would be well over $1000

>>2021087
>cant consoom
'remember when cycling was exiting'

1000 at 17% inflation actually a $830 bike, at more realistic 23% inflation rate only be a $770 bike. still a lot for that bike even with the surly steel frame. almost impossible to beat the globalist Khazarian mafia kicking out comparable bikes from china for 300 bucks

>>2021136
you mean aside from the aforementioned D2C providers that offer arguably the best bang for your buck? Idk, also dumpster diving? cute lingo friend, I'm glad you're ready to pay extra for the hipster's preference, older frames are generally wonderful for upgrades, but please do judge a book by its cover

>>2021171
A good hybrid shouldn't cost more than $450 new. Cable pull disc is a downgrade from V brakes in every metric.

Raw aluminum crosscheck with v brakes for $650. Make it have room for 2" tires and you'll save QBP from its retarded self. Call it HybridFat or something retarded to get the hipsters horny

>>2021163
Ohhh well.
I'm starting to wonder if it's worth it more to buy a frame with specs you want and buy your own parts

>>2021130
>gaspipe steel
I agree with everything else but the "surly gaspipe" is not true. their steel is decent if not outright good
https://surlybikes.com/info_hole/spew/some_things_about_our_steel

>>2021130
holy shit, touch some fucking grass lmao. You are a riot, man.

>>2021141
Both Surly and All-City are, they were bought and managed by QBP a long time ago. 00s/10s hipsters never learned that their indie brands sold out and went mainstream.

>>2021087
>There were new design innovations every year. Now it's all static
If you're talking about the sub $1000 budget bike yes. But in my opinion it's because these bikes have been 'solved', there is nothing left to improve. Innovations still come out but their ever smaller improvements to wheight, aero, etc. at ever increasing cost due to the complexity needed to achieve them.

>>2021130
Lmao imagine paying MORE for fucking alu.

>>2021259
If op's pic is any indication, it certainly has not been solved

>>2021260
It's an actual 2012 remnant, amazing!

>>2021266
Metals' properties have not changed since then.
>b-but they can make it comfortable now!
No they can't. Good talk.

>>2021267
Don't feel bad, a lot of people are struggling

>>2021181
,what's aggravating is that Shimano MT-200s go for next to nothing for the entire set for front and back, there's no excuse to not upgrade to it nowadays

>>2021163
Why don't more companies just go "fuck it" and start kitbashing?
Get a Microshift shifter/derailleur and a shimano hydraulics brakes kit. Order in super-bulk.
Honestly, I've seen WalMart bikes that aren't "that bad" and seen people upgrade them into something "kinda alright." Really changed the way I saw the industry.
(KevCentral, but there're other ways to upgrade things. His channel used to focus on this, and I've seen bike co-op guys and even bike shop guys experiment with this.)

>>2021273
What makes you think they don't? Isn't that what BD does? Even the real brands like giant and cannondale sell low end rim brake bikes that are clearly intended to have the shit parts taken off and discarded.

>>2021273
Did you even read the post anon?

>>2021087
Yeah maybe 200 years ago lmao
The engineering question of bicycles has been solved

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I went to buy a hybrid and came across this specimen.
>crescent kebne
>full alu
>Quick release
>alivio groupset
>MT200 brakes
>only two sizes
1049€

To me it seems way ovepriced, like preamble but worse. Shops in nordics are filled with these. I thought hybrids are 500€ tops, but shop dude chuckled at me. I have idea what's going on. Prices are bonkers and bikes are crap.

>>2021334
the two sizes and the QR are a bit weird. don't know what to make of that 2x crankset or is that 3x? hybrids coming with 3x while grabble bikes come in 1x is fucking crazy and a sign of the end times. but otherwise I dno't see any issues. at least the brakes are hydro

>>2021334
unironically look at decathlon, their touring bikes have saner prices.

>>2021334
I would probably just buy a hardtail mountain bike they seem much cheaper

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BRIDGE CLUB = SHIT OGRE
PREAMBLE = SHIT STRAGGLER

These bikes are designed to hit a specific profit margin, nothing more. Absolute garbage. Every component and every element of the frame is designed to fuck you out of your money. For anyone ignorant enough to think Surly name still means anything.

Classic death spiral we see in every prestigious brand that gets sociopaths running it. They boost profits in the short term while destroying their credibility of the brand name and then jump ship before the consequences arrive

RIP surly

>>2021334
>Prices are bonkers and bikes are crap.
The cycling industry exploded during covid and a lot of incompetent fucks were promoted to dangerously high up positions. Now comes the collapse.

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>>2021273
Kevcentral is based
This hydro disc bike is $300

Slap a rigid fork on there and you've got yourself a way better bike than the Preamble

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>>2021382
>>2021146
>>2021087
Who at Surly hurt you anon?

Imagine buying a Surly instead of a Soma.

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>>2021390
Pic related

>>2021273
>Why don't more companies just go "fuck it" and start kitbashing?
they do to save money, that's why major brands use FSA cranks instead of full shimano drivetrains.

>>2021391
Ah, the Soma Fart Cutter. A true classic

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Surly didn't even release a minivelo

>>2021391
Whoever came up with the idea of putting garbon forks on steel frames should be executed for crimes against aesthetics.

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Surly business plan:
- build Walmart tier bikes
- charge x5 Walmart prices
- cry fail and go bankrupt

Smart move guys

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Surly business plan:
- let's stop updating our most famous bike for 15 years
- let's discountinue it, its just not selling!!

Meanwhile in reality, people are dropping 900 just for a frame in the same style

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Surly business plan:
- muh steel Israel! We are so practical!!!!
- "please please make an aluminum crosscheck" NO!!! GO DIE
- hipsters now selling aluminum crosscheck frame without paint for $2,000

>>2021469
>please please make an aluminum crosscheck
Said no one ever.

>>2021470
Ron's Bikes is completely sold out of that shit frames and the guy probably made $1,000,000 doing it

A million people said it you just don't hang

>>2021471
Nah that's just his cultists buying garbage because he rubbed his dick on it.

>>2021130
>8 speed
>quick release
>mech discs

the concept is that you have a bike with access to cheap used parts, but unlike other entry level hybrids (for half the price), you're getting a decent frameset. Mech discs allows a cheap drop bar conversion. Quick release wheelsets are cheap. 8 speed is cheap.
It specs a perfectly serviceable basic build and then you're able to upgrade it when that stuff wears out after a few years riding.
The prices for parts for modern standards are astronomical, I actually think that this can make sense.

So then the question is just how nice the frame is, whether it's -worth- upgrading.
I'd have to ride one. I've had mixed impressions of the ride quality of surlys. It's worth noting though that cromo frames on the used market are very rarely the exotic type with properly nice ride qualities. I just got a cromo stumpy in the door and it's quite heavy. The 'nice' old diamondbacks are 4130 tier. This isn't exotic steel but a new exotic steel frameset is $1500+ and forks to suit are $500+.

I think your major complaints at their heart aren't even about this but just about the price of everything, and some other identity politics nonsense.

>>2021480
I'm also curious about how they ride. I've never ridden one but I've heard a lot about how dead they feel. I've been given to form the impression that they aren't particularly good but reel in a lot of people who don't know any better with "steel is real," ironically giving steel a bad name to others. But again, this could all be bullshit coming from internet banter.

>>2021130
show me any bike for the same specs that actually sells for less, at best i can find a marin muirwoods that is a couple hundred cheaper than surly, there are no cromoly bikes under 800

>>2021511
surly make touring bikes and bikes for fats
they SAY they're stiff and stronk

>how dead they feel
fucking duh

hating surly is absurd, the number of surlys that have been on cool tours in the past 20 years is maybe more than any other bike brand

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>>2021518
You can get a state road for $500

>>2021130
The demographic that has bought Surly in the past like all that shit about how they are 'behind the times' and they love the 'steel is real' shit.
Surly is fine. They huck shitty, horribly riding Chinese made garbage bikes to hipster idiots. A concrete demographic in the bike industry.

>>2021389
I just noticed shes making this face because her brake lever is busted off

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I've got a really good Bike, better than everyone else's here, but now it's rusty even though I covered it, I'm sad. I bought some rust removal Gel from Robert Dyas and it did nothing!

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>>2021532
She's probably making the face because she's wearing a helmet that wants to delete her rights

>>2021145
Crust is kinda amazing in that a guy who has never held a blow torch in his hand managed to build a viable bike company by just ordering the right geometry CrMo frames from Taiwanese OEMs and painting them the right color.

>>2021087
>straight top tube
>steel
based if you ask me
no need for this bent top tube alu shit

>>2021534
what did abus do?

>>2021547
Criminally overpriced locks.

>>2021553
The whole bike lock market is a racket. Kryptonite locks are magically 30% cheaper in Europe.

>>2021547
German privacy laws make it way too easy to get this kind of stuff removed from search engines, but the family that owns abus is a bunch of christian wackos that don't believe female offspring should inherit anything. The sect that they belong to also has some strange views on farm animals, though I don't think that has any relevance to the abus owners since they're not in that business. Their sect ("the Brethren") have gotten in hot water in the US on the animal slaughter issue (also Brethren cannot reside on the same property as an animal)

Try using one of the lesser known search engines to read up on it. Google is useless but you can sometimes find forum posts or articles in German if you search just right

>>2021136
>Other than your preferred method of dumpster diving, can you name a company that you think sells good new bikes at a fair price today? I suspect you can't.

i've been coming here for decades but it never ceases to surprise me how everyone on this website is such a passive aggressive little faggot

>>2021136
>can you name a company that you think sells good new bikes at a fair price today?
On-One

>>2021563
On one is shit now (really since Brant left desu) they mostly sell open molds

>>2021531
>horribly riding
they're touring bikes you fucking retard
and they say 'fatties fit fine' on them, they are stiff and overbuilt

how do you expect them to ride well?

>horrible to tour on
>horrible for loaded commuters / shopping bikes
now that's just not true

tfw kinda want a 26 disc trucker after reading massive crazyguyonabike trip report
pretty expensive but I know a guy who might have a prodeal hmmm
also kinda tempted by midnight special and krampus

>>2021534
Abus Gamechanger is the best looking helmet of all time.

>>2021480
Blah blah blah
> A good frame
Lol no

$1000 is a violently retarded price point

>>2021527
> Surly makes fucking STATE bicycles look like a good deal

Lol. It's true and it's pathetic

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>>2021527
>>2021593
>4130 1x8 downtube shifter
>City Bike, 3 speed "all you need" and a coaster brake
>Klunker, half cruiser, half mtb, half bmx, full send
State does have some really based entry level options tho

>>2021593
so state bikes, a cromoly frame for 500 bucks is still a bad deal? wtf is a good deal then

>>2021579
Why would you want a 26 when they make 29er's with as much clearance. If you're road touring it's better in like every way, and we know how to make strong wheels now. If MTBers don't break their 29er rims downhill, you won't do it touring

>>2021612
about 80% hipster historical touring bike aesthetic reasons and 20% when I broke a spoke in Mexico last winter and was trying to source a replacement at a junkyard behind a tire shop in the middle of the desert, the only wheel I could find was a 26

>>2021617
>he doesn't keep replacement spokes inside his seat post

I've crashed and just generally destroyed a hell of a lot of bike stuff but the legendary broken spoke has yet to happen to me, are you all just morbidly obese?

>>2021601
anon, if a bike isn't given to you for free with a smile and a blowjob, with high-quality steel, disc brakes ,and through axles, you're getting robbed by the biking industry. And that can be traced back to the evils of Surly

>>2021621
The only time I’ve broken a spoke was when I put together my first bicycle and didn’t screw in the low limit screw on my RD enough and shifted the chain straight into the spokes. I’ve had rear wheels start making noise after thousands and thousands of miles, for which the only remedy was re-lacing the hub with a new rim and spokes, but by that point the rim’s brake tracks were fairly concave and a rebuild was entirely justifiable.

>>2021620
yeah, well, now I know

>>2021621
how much luggage do you carry on your bike?

>>2021624
>if a bike isn't given to you for free with a smile and a blowjob, with high-quality steel, disc brakes ,and through axles, you're getting robbed by the biking industry

Get fucked. The Surly bike is overpriced by 2x minimum. It's a walmart level bike and we all know it

>>2021716
Where can I get a walmart bike with a butted cromo frame for $500?

>>2021716
Anon you know that you cant build a quality bike for 500$? We are talking new parts. 1000$ for a regular beginner bike with cheap but reliable parts is a decent price. Proof me wrong but a decent wheelset alone is 200$ and up. I think you have still some 2014 prices in mind.

I was considering getting a surly bridge club for about 1500 euro to use on a long combined touring + offroading trip. However for 500 euro more I could get a krampus/ogre. Would it be worth the extra cash? And between the krampus or the ogre which would be overall better? Or something completely different? I can also get a Kona Unit X for the same price as the bridge club.

>>2021722
The geometry on that surly is very dull, I'd go for the kona

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>>2021722
what kind of terrain? the krampus can only fit a 36T chainring so you're gonna spin out on road
the bridge club and ogre both fit a 48T and you could run a triple if you wanted

>>2021723
Thanks for reply Anon. What do you mean by dull when it comes to geometry? I'm still relatively clueless on how to judge the geometry of a bike.
>>2021725
Thanks Anon. I plan on using this bike for everything honestly. I'm in the Netherlands so a lot of bike paths for sure, some local mountain biking trails (mostly sand and gravel, barely any hills) and eventually I want to do the European divide trail, so a lot of mixed terrain. If the krampus spins out on the road then that probably doesn't fit.
I should also mention that I'd like this bike to last me a long time and be relatively easy to maintain by myself.

>>2021727
sounds like bridge club/ogre territory to me. if yuro, bombtrack and maybe tout terrain might be worth comparison-shopping.
>>2021727
>I'd like this bike to last me a long time and be relatively easy to maintain by myself.
that's every bike desu (mayb excluding stuff with lots of internal cable routing)

>>2021722
>or something completely different

this. You're in europe. don't import some trash american hasbeen brand

you have some better and affordable brands there

>>2021736
Tout terrain is definitely outside of my budget (ideally under 2k) but bombtrack has some pretty nice looking bikes. Thanks Anon.
>>2021744
Any suggestions? I'll be buying my first "good" bike, as I've previously just been riding a passed down hybrid with worn down gears.

>>2021749
>suggestions

https://www.cyclingabout.com/a-complete-list-of-touring-bicycle-manufacturers-with-prices/

>>2021722
anon have you been touring before?

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>>2021722
>Kona Unit X
Rigid piece of shit with the ride characteristics of an anvil. Get literally anything else.
t. ex-owner
>inb4 but stiff is good for touring
No it isn't.

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Here's a hydro disc, carbon fork, alu frame, Deore derailleur hybrid for $1,000

https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/2024-dsx-1

>>2021136
Where are you surly employee?? Any comments on this? Why should I ride your gas pipe shit bike again?

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Here's a $530 bike with aluminum frame, steel fork, hydro disc, altus RD. On sale for $350.
https://www.marinbikes.com/bikes/2023-presidio-1-sale
Where the fuck is surly getting their SHIT prices from? Fucking trash bikes

>>2021855
See >>2021149
why didn't you read the thread?

>>2021858
QBP employee trying to sweep. Muted

>>2021855
>>2021857
>alu frame
Anon those are BSOs.

>>2021859
Hi there,

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>>2021858
>>2021859
>>2021863
You both are fucking retards and should shut the fuck up

>>2021857
For $350 I'd recommend this to any newbie. BOOM Surly BTFO

>>2021863
STOP

>>2021855
>>2021857
>25.6lbs
>27.1lbs
isnt alumnum supposed to be light? these weigh more than my steel bike (23lbs)

>>2021907
Aluminum is a valuable metal worth much more than steel. You're complaining about getting more of it?
This is not a race

>>2021909
Compared to 4130 cromo? Per the same unit of weight?

>>2021929
Yeah it's worth much much more

Recycling an aluminum bike frame can net you $100 easy

>>2021087
wtf is this bullshit trend with those funky as fuck looking rounded dropouts? since when a simple double diamond design is obsolete? what benefit can a rounded ugly piece of shit bring? I started noticing them on all mountain bikes now

>>2021963
it's still a simple double diamond frame
the design of the dropout is to make space for a disc brake and a larger rotor, that doesn't marr a rack.

>>2021227
Nothing is actual gaspipe steel anymore, practically nothing is still made in high tensile for that matter, and to top it off reynolds and tange have literally no advantage any more over over taiwanese tube factories pumping out custom butted custom alloy tubes for anybody and everybody willing to drop half a million bucks to prove their frame design. The age of obsessing over tube brands is over

>>2021979
counterpoint: it's important to remind steelisreal cope NEETs on BSOs that their "compare to $1499 trek or specialized" windsor shitter with mystery meat components is actually *not* just as good as a super record battaglin portofino and therefore their weird snobbery about having a worse bicycle can only be justified on the grounds that when they finally get a job they can appreciate nice bikes that much more

>>2021997
post your bike

>>2022002
I've posted it several times and generally gotten favorable (You)s. obviously if I post it now anons are going to find reasons to hate it because that's the context

>>2022003
ok poorfag

>>2022004
I called you poor first so you'll have to find a different angle, perhaps call me fat instead, I don't think that's been taken yet

>>2022005
People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones unless you can prove you're not poor that is which you seem reluctant to do

>>2022006
sorry but no amount of seething over the word "gaspipe" is going to make your gaspipe BSO the same as a high end italian steel frame

>>2022008
High end italian steel frames come from the same Taiwanese factory as my gaspipe BSO.

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>>2022009

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>>2022008
Yeah guess you're right I should throw this thing out

>>2022014
>google and yandex search
>no results
nice, man. tire clearance is probably shit but that's an awesome frame

>>2022028
Isn't the clearance usually pretty good on these old fucks? I had measured 30mm clear comfortably on a mid 80s Eddy Merckx, 32 would fit but I'm a bit safety weenie so I don't like it that tight

>>2022029
I think it really depends. but older tends towards thinner clearance, especially for race bikes.

>>2022029
It's a 90s bike so they ran narrower tires
26c is the widest that will fit

>>2022014
Aluminum is still superior

>>2022040
not the end of the world. I just put some gp5ks on my fast bike in 28mm, but when I pumped them up and put the calipers on them, the actual width was 26.4. I was disappointed since I was replacing Serfas Secas in 23mm that measured 24.4. so instead of getting 5mm extra width, it was only like 2. but they feel great and absorb much more shock, gp5k is just a better tire all around so it was still a significant upgrade

>>2022040
Somehow I am enjoying 23mm tires a lot now. Don't know if I got fitter, used to it or what.
I swear I am the ultimate hipster. I was wanting wide tires in the early 2010's, and now that's in. Now narrow is bad and I am doing that.

>>2022051
I rode the 23s just because that's what I had, and they weren't a problem or anything, but I'd never intentionally go back to them. you're weird.

>>2022051
Yeah me too.
i've got a 23 veloflex on the front of my concorde atm and the ride is so goddamn smooth and nice
it replaced a 28 corsa.

stated tire width is just one factor. People say they'd never go back to narrow tires but super supple narrow tires on a nice springy steel frameset can ride nicer than 32 touring spec on some stiff disc shitter, so it doesn't really even make sense to say that unless you're talking about safety crossing tram tracks or something like that rather than ride comfort.

Also 23s and now even 25s are often heavily discounted. It's worth going for the deals on high end tires. I just fucking love expensive tires.
Likewise gravel tires in ~33mm (narrow) sizes are often cleared too, and you can sometimes get them -really- cheaply like-new on marketplace from boomers.

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>>2021099

>>2021860
what? having an alu frame doesn't make a bike a BSO

>>2022144
Yes it does.

>>2021727
Slack headtube angle makes the bike handle nicer, makes it much more stable at speed and even when trackstanding.
It's especially great when going on mixed terrain.
Steep headtube angles go well with long stems, so they only make sense on road bikes.
The slacker the better. I have 67.5° on my custom rugger rigid touring bike and it rides like a dream.
Steep seattubes make knees happier, make climbing easier. Old road bikes had slack seattubes because old italian freds thought that they would be more aero if they folded as hard as possible with their saddle as far back as possible. This school of thought is bullshit and especially irrelevant to burly touring bikes

>>2021907
They have very low end components. If you were to upgrade the wheels and drivetrain those bikes would lose a lot of weight

>>2022160
*rugged

>>2022152
carbon- or steelfag?

>>2021130
bro are you new to cycling ?
I didn't even read your full post.

surly USP is beeing anti hightech bikes pro unracer.

also,
I used to think the same way, now I'm literally about to buy a surly.

>NOOOOOO you're not allowed to own a Surly, you have to buy something rarer like Soma or Ritchey

cringe

>>2022085
That's a Big wheel

>>2022175
I mean yeah if you had a good used option for something with prestige or logic tubing -and knew your shit about evaluating and then setting it up- then obviously that would be worth considering over Surly. Hell, Ritchey steel bikes are valid alternatives to modern carbon, they're really nice.

It's the same with the rigid 90s mtb world. Your average 4130 hardrock or daimondback apex is great but it's not going to have a magic ride quality. If you -can- get something with super fancy steel you should.

>>2022193
>valid alternatives to modern carbon
...
LMAOO
Not a single soul enters xc races on a fucking steel bike with fucking rim brakes in 1990+35

>>2022236
Who said anything about racing?

>>2022193
Butted Tange 2 bike was my favorite ride feel of all time

>>2022238
you probably just liked the geometry

>>2022240
I had a Reynolds 531 in the same size that rode like shit. I dunno. Both bikes were early 80s road geom

>>2022236
this mf lives in 2025

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Doesn't look bad, but needs higher bars

>>2022014
>columbus thron
Yeah you probably should tee bee aich

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>>2021178
>"acumen" is hipster lingo
Are you the same anon who thought "durable" was some kid of obscure ESL regionalism imported from the indian subcontinent? This is what years of attacks on the education system has done to the amerilard brain. We can look forward to a future where using semicolons gets you arrested by the commission for the promotion of virtue and the suppression of vice.

>>2021130
The worst thing about them is their dropouts. Fix this shit and those would be decent bikes for half the price.

>>2021087
Surly is for people who don't want something new and fancy, they just want a well built and properly designed basic bike

>>2024495
i agree but i also have been seeing a lot of surly builds recently that are really decked out in fancy shit and been like huh on a surly aye why

>>2021136
>current industry standards
"Standards" have only gotten worse in recent years. 20 years old campy shifts gears flawlessly even now. Carbon frames are a joke and it doesn't affect your comfort at all. 2x10 is more than enough even if you live in the mountains. The only improvement was the introduction of disc brakes and wider tires, but both are available on surlys and all city.

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>>2021087
Actually I was considering buying one of those.
So give me your advice please.
I want an all-road bike with classic geometry, disc brakes, the ability to mount a rear rack and wide tires (32mm) with fenders. Well, and the most important thing is that I am 193 cm tall and have long legs, so the frame size needed is 60-62 cm.
I was considering surly straggler but I don't like the short head tube and crappy dropouts.
So now I think I'll take either Brother Kepler (I doubt about the mounts on the seatstays and the stirring tube) or Crust Romanceür (Looks like it has a threaded headset).
So what are the alternatives?

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>>2024636
Black mountain mod zero

>>2024638
>classic road-bike geometry
You're kidding,right?

>>2024636
I"m currently riding an aluminum specialized allez and I'm not happy with a few things. Firstly, the 56cm frame is too small - I had to install a super long seat post, which means I have to lean forward more and my neck gets stiff. And I moved to a mountainous area and although the rim brakes do their job, the rims wear out almost completely in one season.
The problem is I installed old campa record, assembled the new wheels myself. And my current bike cost me $1-1,5k. And the new frame alone costs a thousand or more.

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>>2024636
Singular Peregrine?

>Crust Romanceür
That's designed by that hipster pothead exhibitionist, please don't enable him.

>>2021617
yes but you're more likely to not be able to find the nice tires you want in 26 than 29

>>2024501
for updoots. It's all about building the bike up, not actually riding it

>>2024648
>expensive cable dicks
why

>>2024668
It looked pretty for the photoshoot. They only sell framesets.

>>2024641
I don't understand, why do you need brakes? They don't have mountains in amsterdam.

>>2024671
Of course (you) wouldn't understand why anyone would need brakes; you're already retarded.

>>2024648
>Singular Peregrine
This one looks nice, thank you.
>>2024671
I have been living in Vietnam for the last two years.

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>>2024636
Nemo Tig

>>2024776
>$2,5k just for the frame
>no mounts for racks and fenders
No, thanks.

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>>2024802
>no mounts for fenders
it doesn't have clearance for full fenders, why should it have bosses? Almost all of the ones that might fit don't attach via bosses anyway.
>no mounts for racks
considering the popularity and huge number of options for bikepacking bags i think this is ok now too. Hell even back in the day a race bike taken into the mountains on a tour would get a carradice bag on it. A rack would be really out of place unless it was an exotic svelte carbon or tubus fly one or something like that and accommodating extremely niche meme setups is hardly necessary.

>>2024838
>I think it's ok to get fucked up the ass and eat shit. It was popular back in the day.
No it's not. Thank you for your opinion though

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>>2024838
racks are bloat

>>2024888
>The center of gravity is fucking high.
>The weakest side wind blows you to hell.
>The pathetic Velcro fastenings constantly slip and don't hold anything.
>The process of installing and removing a bag takes 10 times longer than with a rack.
If you like eating shit, that's your choice, but don't try to convince others to do the same.

>>2024880
there are different bicycles and it's ok that they're different

fuck you cunt

>>2024802
>buy road bike with narrow clearence and flexy tubes
>complains about rack mounts and fender mounts
grim prospects man.

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>>2024890
all the tour divide badlands etc riders use this setup
racks are deprecated tech

>>2021391
Fag cutter?

>>2024896
Embarrassing man, truly.

>>2024895
Learn how to read already, retard.

>>2024906
>all bikes sold need racks and fender mounts
pain

>>2024896
There are millions of retarded around the world that use iphone instead of a phone. Why should I follow their example?

>>2024907
I didn't tell that. I described the bike I need. And you throw out some crap that doesn't fit the description. I understand that you're from us, but even though you should have at least some rudiments of intelligence.

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>>2024908
they probably ride with a bunch of shit hanging of their fork like retards

>>2024909
bad day?
I didn't post the nemo and think if you are looking for a bike for racks get a gravel type bike or touring. Look for something in your area and country, not asking us to post shit from the internet that may or may not fit your use cases. A bike setup for racks needs to be strong, especially if you are that tall and say 100kg+. A road racing bike is optimized for rider weight or less, adding a rack+bags+cement would cause a sketchy ride.
This is why people run vintage mtb's with beefy frame for touring.
>>2024908
To increase my stock value, of course.

>>2024888
>>2024896
You don't ride.

>>2024896
both types of setup have their place and lots of people use a combination. There are downsides and positives to both.

Practically every type of bicycle tech can be valid.
Anyone arguing wholesale against anything just because it doesn't suit them or to rationalize their own superiority are pathetic and probably don't have much experience.

>>2021463
they would have sold so many if they did

>>2021146
Nigger you are not important enough for Surly employees to come here to shill to you, now come back down to earth

>>2021136
>All City is dead now
true, true.

>>2024914
they spend months building the bike up then they have to punish themselves riding the fucking thing to the middle of nowhere and camp under a fucking tarp

>>2021560
>The sect that they belong to also has some strange views on farm animals, though I don't think that has any relevance to the abus owners since they're not in that business. Their sect ("the Brethren") have gotten in hot water in the US


What is the deal with you Germans? Let people be free. Imagine a country where you have to pick approved names off a list and you cannot worship in a new sect if the German government says you are a 'cult'.

The first Bretheren church was built in Germantown, Pennsylvania, USA. They are a kind and peaceful sect who adheres to traditional christian values. They believe that the New Testament is the only word of God. They practice pacifism and self determination.
The closest to them would be the Quakers.

Pretty gross that you'd cross a German bike made by Anabaptists off your list but would gladly buy one made in Shenzen by a communist slave.

Wake up, Germany!

>>2021722
Get a Cinelli Hoboleg. It turns heads. It rides great.

>>2024418
>Are you the same anon who thought "durable" was some kid of obscure ESL regionalism imported from the indian subcontinent?

Lol I remember that retard. He literally didn't know what a durable or non durable good was.

>>2025940
>Muh freedom to be retard
How about you legalize drugs first, capitalist slave?

>>2025941
I looked that bike up, it's a sweet bike but a normie wouldn't really be able to differentiate between that and a walmart bike

>itt: spec riders

Hater's gonna hate.

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>JONES HAS ENTERED THREAD

>>2022187
For you

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>>2022085

>>2021334
Get a job.

>>2021384
Better for what? Who would trust a $300 bike what sort of shitty ching-chong brakes would you get for that?

>>2026121
boomer

>>2024501
They're good bikes?

>>2024633
Surly was fairly responsible for dragging the world to fatter tyres. First cross-check getting fat tyres on a road style bike, then Pugsley, then 29+ and moonlander. Surly was also a leader in 29er. You can keep your full suspension and carbon aero aids.

>>2026147
nice way to make the heavier frames not matter so much

>>2026150
Do people shopping for sub $1k bikes really?

>>2021130
What's wrong with bb5? They're great brakes. I notice nobody is talking about wheels, no matter what brakes or drillium groupset you have, a bike with boat anchor wheels is going to be shit. This is how I can tell none of you fags ride.

>>2026152
yeah well compare it to something like a Kona gravel aluminum frame and it makes a difference. Doesn't matter much if you're rolling heavy rubber but if you're on 32's or something it does. And I have 2 steel bikes myself

>>2026153
I only care about good hubs and a strong build.
>t.100kg rider who gets to true wheels semi frequently.

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a challenger appears...

>>2026167
>double-butted cr-mo frame
>3x10 Deore
>bar-end friction shifters
>Hylex mech+hydraulic disc brakes
I mean the specs are the correct choices for a touring bike.

>30 lbs
It could be lighter without sacrificing the level of durability necessary for bike touring.

>>2026169
Seems like a reasonable weight for a tourer.

>>2026161
Tyres, rims, butted spokes, hubs, I guarantee a $300 bike is not going to have good quality out of any of those parts.

>>2026161
Aluminium bikes are shit.

>>2021087
well, a $1000 bike in today's money is like a $500 bike in 2019 money
so be grateful

>>2021087
Pretty sure that preamble is a cost reduced and modernized replacement to the cross-check, which was an awesome bike. I commuted 30km every day for many years and my cross-check never let me down.

>>2026175
we also have less disposable income now though so it doesn't correlate as easily

>>2026172
yes but they have advantages

>>2026179
I made a ghetto copy of a cross check, it just looked like the perfect bike for my local shit roads which are about 50% gravel (3rd world)

>>2026208
what are the advantages

>>2026212
lighter, cheaper, feels the same on fat wheels, chips and scratches don't show rust

>>2026213
>chips and scratches don't show rust
In reality rust is almost always a non-issue, and aluminium corrosion causes just as many issues, actually, it's worse because rust can be charming and rust can be treated whereas aluminium corrosion is gross and harder to do anything about

lighter and cheaper are valid, 'feels the same' is simply not true, although it is obviously possible to have an aluminium bike that rides well.

>>2026213
>feels the same on fat wheels
Nope.
I had a frame swap on a 29x2.6 bike, every other component stayed the same and the difference in ride quality was night and day.
Also no, you can't fake a compliant frame with underinflated tires. I tried.

>>2026222
what does ride quality mean

>>2021087
I've just been made aware of the next buzzword in cycling, low CoG pedals. MTB flats with the pedals mounted lower than the spindle which changes the reaction from bumps from up and over to down and back which increases grip on the flats and reduces bump lift off and pedal rotation. Opponents of the idea are saying bump off is a symptom of aggressively short cranks. Proponents suggests that of the physics of lower mounted pedals ring true, the technology can be ported to road cycling, just like disc brakes and short stroke cranks.

>>2026229
Guess what? Shimano was doing that with the OG shimano dura ace AX clips back in the 80's. They even had the clips/pedals shortened so you had a lower cg and narrower for aero.
>>2026224
>he doesn't even plane
this is why everyone buys stiff as a board bikes and runs fat tires on it in the current year.

>>2026222
They do. I have steel bikes and the ride cushioning is very overrated

>>2026209
>3rd world
USA?

>>2026215
>>2026222
The material of a frame doesn't affect the rigidity of frame at all. The only reason to buy steel frame is looks. That's all.

>>2026253
And durability. A steel frame is more durable than an alloy or carbon frame, which matters if you ride a lot.

>>2026253
>The material of a frame doesn't affect the rigidity of frame at all

Wrong. You can make steel as stiff as alu but you cannot make alu as compliant as good steel without it bending out of shape on the first bump.
I'm sure there are some steel frames that are stiffer than some alu frames, I've ridden some absolutely garbage steel, but in general you can make a steel frame much softer than an alu one.

>>2026253
>>2026260
>>2026287
I see we wanted to open an old can of worms today

>>2026252
not quite that bad, I don't know if I'd even ride a bike in USA

>>2024888
>>2024896
>>2024914
I hate this kind of faggotry.
First off you can get bikes with fenders and racks in the same price range, be it bikepacking or touring.
Second there's options to install racks with fenders on every bike.
Third mount points in frames are free if the frame has them.
And last any (questionable) aero gains are less than what a dirty chain does.

Imagine how shit bikes would be if Surly didn't exist. Fuck skinny wheels, fuck aluminium, fuck carbon.

>>2026298
>First off you can get bikes with fenders and racks in the same price range, be it bikepacking or touring.
That Cinelli we're talking about is not a bikepacking or touring bike. It only fits narrow tires. It's a road bike. Road bikes often don't have bosses, because they're not good at or intended to carry loads. They are minmaxed speed bikes. Are you insisting that all bikes be versatile? Why?

The ultraracing examples given after that are to show that even for carrying stuff, many people with ~touring bikes chose bikepacking bags. Those bikes do still have bosses and could just as easily have racks and panniers (and many of those setups do go halfway and use a front or rear rack).

>Second there's options to install racks with fenders on every bike.
Bikepacking bags aren't used because people think they can't have racks. The examples given are to show that even given the ability to have racks, many people chose bags. Even so, clamping racks on is often pretty annoying especially on world touring bikes that might frequently be disassembled. Running lowriders without midfork bosses is especially awful (i do it).

>Third mount points in frames are free if the frame has them.
It's not free, it's extra work, especially on a handbuilt steel or carbon frame/fork. You pay for it.

>And last any (questionable) aero gains are less than what a dirty chain does.
Not having the bosses? Sure that's not going to make a bike preform better at all. It's largely a style thing. Not having panniers is a HUGE aero bonus though.

>>2024838
These bikes look insane how tall are these people??
Why didn't they just lower the top tube, keep the same length, and use taller stems/seatpoat???

>>2026230
Don't ignore his question, what was the quality of the ride that was lacking even though it has such huge tire?

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>>2026320
Those baggies cost a ton and carry maybe 30 liters total... A single pannier can usually go up to that much. It's not comparable, besides, panniers are absolutely making a comeback, you will be praising them in couple of years. Just see what Lachlan was riding to Tour Divide this year.

>>2026320
What a braindead twat you are.

>>2026332
I hear ya but the tailfin shit is also stupid expensive.

>>2026329
>Why didn't they just lower the top tube
1. Longer seatstays flex more and absorb shock better.
2. It looks better this way.

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>>2026107
and?

>>2026121
yes hello

>>2026320
>That Cinelli we're talking about is not a bikepacking or touring bike
The Hobootleg is definitely a bikepacking or touring bike (or drop bar MTB, I believe they have a model that'll clear 2.6) and I don't see another Cinelli under discussion itt. >>2026298

>>2026338
>It looks better this way
Hard disagree, but de gustibus non est disputandum

>>2026330
You have never ridden a nice steel, carbon, or aluminum road bike. With the right amount of flex you don't need fuckhuge tires and instead you feel just the right amount of road to enjoy it.
You guys and your 35's can just mute the road.
>>2026340
agree to disagree. You can keep your 400mm seatposts with square tubes.

>>2021346
Their Hopprider 520 is heavy as shit. Mad comfy though.

>>2026330
Comfort. I had a direct comparison with another steel bike on 29x2.2 tires and the one with the smaller tires was more comfortable.
On the stiff frame, every bump was transferred directly to the handlebars and the saddle, and the energy wasted on moving the rider's mass up and down meant a tangible loss of speed.
Replacing the frame (all other components staying the same) actually made the bike faster as well as more comfortable. A little flex here, a bit of deflection there and the only thing that goes up and down on a bump is the wheel, instead of rotating the entire bike with the rider on top. Of course it's not full suspension, but it softens every terrain irregularity by a fair bit and that adds up over time.
So a stiff bike rides like this ^^^^^^^^^ and a compliant one like this ~~~~~~~~~ and you can still feel the difference through midfat tires.

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>>2026346
>>2026356
I dunno if this really has anything to do with the material though. I've ridden a nice Cannondale caad8 with 25's and a carbon fork that was "smoother" than my steel cx bike with 38's.

By smoother I mean the Cannondale had a more fluid ride on the road. Going over a traffic speed bump don't jolt me as much. It was faster, more predictable. It felt like ~~~ vs ^^^ like >>2026356 said

That being said, taking the Cannondale on gravel and the like was measurably worse than the cx bike. The big tires smoothed things out when there were literal obstructions in the road.

So what was it?!? I guess it was geometry? The cx bike is definitely not as stiff as the Cannondale, I don't think it was stiff at all desu. Maybe the fork was bent some dumb way and it fucked up the ride?

My point is, I've never personally seen a tight correlation between ride quality and frame material. And yes I've ridden plenty of bikes, maybe I've never ridden your Columbus tubed colnago but I've been on your carbon fred sled, triple butted miyatas, steel rim brake trek touring bikes, cheap hydro formed rigid mtbs, the whole lot with tires between 19mm-60mm.

Personally I think it's geometry mostly. I'm retarded tho so FUCK if I know

>>2026320
>That Cinelli we're talking about is not a bikepacking or touring bike.
this >>2024888 is the same bike, they make gravel allroad and road version of that frame

>>2026360
It's a mixture of geometry, frame materials(thickness/layers,etc) and builder skill. Geometry makes a big difference in cannondale in particular. They made touring bikes people enjoyed riding long distances on, and made crit/steep race bikes that people claimed were the stiffest bikes ever.
I think builder skill gets forgotten too much since that is something you can't really see IRL that well, but some bikes do just ride better. Some are more optimized for your weight so they can ride better, where as others are built for jimbob the 400lb strongman.

>>2026363
>>2026339

>>2024776
this bike mate
nemo tig
that's what popped off the discussion here about no bosses

>>2026332
I tour with racks and panniers m8

I actually don't like framebags because i brush my knees on the top tube when i ride.

Thing is there are a tonne of good options to do what i want, and i don't get mad about different ways existing. There are definite major benefits to bikepacking bags, and this is coming from someone who doesn't personally want to use them. I'm the opposite of biased.

>lachlan had a rack
>>2026320
>(and many of those setups do go halfway and use a front or rear rack).
did you even read my post lol

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>>2026329
because it's pre- integrated shifting (which is kinda awkward from the drops) riding in the drops was bigger.
You have more control in the drops, also, the brakes were weaker, and you can get more leverage from the drops on them.

Current ethos with drops is basically to put the hoods as low as is tolerable and then the drops are for sprinting or getting aero on descents and are basically unrideable otherwise.
Back in the days with higher bars and the drops as your primary position, the other positions become more relaxed, which imo is far more useful for a bar with multiple positions.

So because you wanted higher bars, they had to get up somehow, and doing it with a tall quill stem wasn't really a thing because that would add a tonne of flex which makes the bike sprint worse and can make it handle sketchily. The riders in that pic aren't racing but even for racing, to the very end of the steel era, you'd see 'odd' fits like that, pic rel is the last quill stem to win the Tour de France, done this way probably to save a tiny bit of weight, and a 'normal' bike to achieve the same fit for a tall person, who isn't racing, would be like what you see with Brandt's bike.

It's called a french fit 'fistful of seatpost'.
It's also a 'pro' thing because it means you might not have ball clearance so it's signalling that your bike handling is good enough to handle that and not find it dangerous or akward because you can dismount expertly and do a trackstand and you're riding clips.

>>2026338
>1. Longer seatstays flex more and absorb shock better.
This is true as well. It's comfier, but the main thing is that it's stiffer.
The reasons it wasn't more common are:
>Expensive to have bikes that only fit really tall people
>No ball clearance is hostile to casuals
>Pros would often ride undersized frames to drop weight and this was imitated

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>>2026329
>These bikes look insane how tall are these people??
Brandt was 6'6 but most bikes had pretty short seatposts even pro race bikes

>>2026319
>fuck aluminum
show me where I can buy steel hubs, steel rims, or all steel seatposts
it's hard to find stems or handlebars that aren't aluminum

>>2026372
Kino. Looks like a comfy ride

>>2026319
you're right, they did the had work with all the marketing etc and blew it. Sad part is other companies aren't really picking up their slack so bikes are returning to the way they were (with the exception of tire clearance)

>>2026414
he clearly meant frames and forks

>>2026414
Mine are titanium. There are also several options for cromoly bars.

>>2026459
How did they blow it? I have an ecr and used to have a cross check they were both expensive complete bikes, I can see why Surly may be trying to bring costs down with boutique competition cutting into their market.