Trams are a terrible idea. Who actually thought it was a good idea to take a train and put it on a road? Whenever a regular train crosses a roadway, you have to have bells and lights and barriers to warn drivers that it's coming. That's because trains are big, you can't steer them, and you can hardly stop them. They're designed to run on dedicated tracks where they can only go in one direction. And if someone walks out on the tracks in front of you, apart from blowing your horn at them and hope they notice you, you as a conductor can effectively do nothing but look on. Meanwhile, road traffic especially in cities is busy and full of cars, cyclists and pedestrians going every which way. Now add to that that you're gonna be sharing a lane with a TRAIN. What happens when there's a red light? Can't stop. Sorry, everyone else. Mum crosses the street with her stroller and doesn't see you coming? Oops. All of the accidents that happen with trams speak for themselves. Did you know 48 % of all pedestrian injuries and fatalities in Gotheburg were caused by trams? 52% for all the other vehicles combined. How many trams are there in comparison? The perfect urban transit method has already been invented and it's called a bus. All problems the tram "solves", all of its supposed advantages are done better by BRTs, buses (can go anywhere on the road, don't need dedicated tracks) and metro trains (carry more people faster over longer distances). There is simply no argument to be had for trams. They are a nostalgic gimmick at best.
>>2021370Not reading all that shit kiddo.I dont use any public transport because it sucks simple as
>>2021370>Whenever a regular train crosses a roadway, you have to have bells and lights and barriers to warn drivers that it's coming.Do you live in a village
>>2021370Yes, you're entirely right, busses are superior in almost every way. (You could argue that ICE pollution sucks vs. overhead powerlines)
>>2021377do you live in cambodia?
maybe the actual problem.is motorvehicles in general? Did you consider this yet?
>>2021377>trains have gates, lights, and barriersCities everywhere, well-maintained operators, any road that has traffic>just a signpostExtremely rural areas where even a going down the road is rare, railroad spurs, poorly-maintained operators
>>2021379>What happens when there's a red light? Can't stop. Sorry, everyone else. Mum crosses the street with her stroller and doesn't see you coming? Oops. All of the accidents that happen with trams speak for themselves.It is not a problem here, it is extremely rare for a tram to hit anyone. Trains hit more people and vehiclesRegarding OPs subject, trams can carry a lot more people, they have better acceleration and deceleration, they provide a more pleasant ride, make the city easier to navigate, they are more quiet, can encourage local development along the route, no sharp turns and potholes, they are much nicer in every single aspect
>>2021431As for metros they are superior sure but they generally have larger distance between stops and they are like 100x more expensive
>>2021370you're right, we should have no more cars and traffic lights in cities so trams can run unobstructed. also if you get hit by a tram as a pedestrian you're retarded, they're easier to predict than buses due to the rail, just look left and right before crossing like with any road
>>2021431what kinds of trams do they have in cambodia
>>2021435Go back to SomethingAwful you aging millennial unfunny leftist faggot dork
>>2021431Kinda subjective, buses around here have very nice rides, also metrobuses can carry lots of people too.>>2021436Dang, why are you so mad though?
>>2021438Where do you live?
>>2021370>you as a conductor can effectively do nothing but look on.Why do so many people not understand the difference between conductors and engineers?
>>2021446Engineers build things
>>2021448In the original sense, they were someone that ran an engine. Locomotive engineers are engineers.
>Now add to that that you're gonna be sharing a lane with a TRAIN.Most tram tracks are designed so only trams can use it, they either have ballast or a grass covering. In Germany we have even gone so far as to go underground and make the trams act as a metro in the city centers.>What happens when there's a red light?If a tram has a red light, it has to stop and it will stop.>Mum crosses the street with her stroller and doesn't see you coming?We used to call this natural selection before sissies like you were allowed to have a voice.>Did you know 48 % of all pedestrian injuries and fatalities in Gotheburg were caused by trams?Poor wording. I would assume over 95% of those 48% are caused by pedestrians being careless and tram drivers having no time to react.>There is simply no argument to be had for trams.Lower personnel cost than buses (trams can be up to 4x longer than buses in Germany)Lower construction and maintenance cost than metro trainsCheaper trains (tram models are basically mass produced)Accessability is simple (low-floor trams have been a thing for decades and while a bad bus driver might be uncomfortably far away from the curb, a tram driver will always be perfectly close to the curb every single time the tram stops)
>>2021370>What happens when there's a red light? Can't stop. Sorry, everyone else. Mum crosses the street with her stroller and doesn't see you coming? Oops.
>>2021370>Who actually thought it was a good idea to take a train and put it on a road?It over a century ago, back before we had a petrochemical industry to make asphalt. Roads were literally compacted horse shit, so laying metal rails for carts to roll on was an appealing alternative.
>>2021370Idk I couldn't disagree more. We put in a short line for 20 blocks from the farmers market to the train station. Now its so popular they are adding another 30 blocks to the line. People love it.
>>2021475Here ya go guys check it out https://kcstreetcar.org/Its fun. Tourists love it.
Based a red pilled. Streetcars are the worse kind of train, and is a train operated like a bus (in a bad way). But it's fun for stupid people, and morons in government get suckers into it after taking a junket (vacation) to some small place that has one on your dime.There's a reason why almost no one builds these anymore, and that every other form of railway is stricken (in the math sense) superior
>>2021460>tram drivers having no time to reactThey'd have had time to stop if they had rubber wheels
They are just an awkward compromise, a cheaper inferior metro and a more expensive inferior brt
>>2021448engineers never built a thing in their lives...
>>2021370Trams in the USA are good because there is way less bureaucratic red tape and asinine regulations around them compared to railroads and metro systems.
>>2021448>>2021455>>2021506engineer (n.)mid-14c., enginour, "constructor of military engines," from Old French engigneor "engineer, architect, maker of war-engines; schemer" (12c.), from Late Latin ingeniare (see engine); general sense of "inventor, designer" is recorded from early 15c.; civil sense, in reference to public works, is recorded from c. 1600 but not the common meaning of the word until 19c (hence lingering distinction as civil engineer). Meaning "locomotive driver" is first attested 1832, American English. A "maker of engines" in ancient Greece was a mekhanopoios.At least try..
>>2021499No they wouldn't
>>2021431>trams can carry a lot more peoplesure as fuck they can't, they're always three-car cuckpods that can carry 300 people at most>they have better acceleration and decelerationtrue, but>they provide a more pleasant rideis a lie because of the acceleration precisely>make the city easier to navigatethat much is true yeah>can encourage local development along the routeeven a fucking road does, that's not specific to trams or even public transportation>no sharp turns they do, it's just that they are forced to take them at 5km/h because they're surrounded by traffic>and potholeswell yeah it's fucking rail, neither does a plane> they are much nicer in every single aspectyou are gayer in every single aspect
>>2021546I mean the question comes down to where youre from. Here trams are a much nicer experience than buses in every aspect
>>2021546>Neither does a planeYou use planes for public transport?
>>2021370You are correct, this is why we need trolleybuses.
>>2021431Also to add to this: you can significantly reduce the chance of accidents and delays of tram networks, thereby making them better for passengers motorists alike, if you don't design them like an absolute retard.It's alright for a tram to share space with cars if you're passing through a local street, where traffic is low and slow. If you're in a collector street or avenue, though, you should give your tram its own lane. Like how you would give a bus its own lane. And if you're going over an arterial, you need full grade separation. The tracks should run in the median, isolated from cars.
>>2021568Planes are public transport.
>>2021370it's worse in Melbournethe trams run on TWO LANE STREETShuh whats all this safety craptrams are slow as shit
>>2021370Every cager, cyclist, walker hates:Tram make no noise, tram have no breaks.Silent killers on your streets and no one hears them pass.You only hear their victims scream, on asphalt, grit and grass.
>>2021567a tram is just a good bus, but it doesn't even make the cut for an extremely shitty train.trams are the troons of the train world, and they will never be real trains.
>>2021478Forget the tourist svbhvman for a moment, the place must be built for resident Vbermenschen firsttourust rats should always be at most AT THE VERY MOST a secondary concern because tourist industry is a scam for the people actually living there in the majority of cases and forms low income trapssie haben uns ausgelacht und ausgenutzt doch irgendwann wird unsere GEDVLD zu ende sein und wir werden ihnen das BnB bvchende tovrimavl stopfen!
>>2023148'tism
ITT: Cagetrolls hating on trams because they always lose.
>>2023215the tram is just a bigger cage
>>2023233GIVE WAY TO TRAMSWAYTOTRAMS
>>2023148gv bvck to rvddit
>>2021370I have never understood the point in trams. I guess they made sense when combustion engines were large and inefficient. Nowadays the only point I see to them is a cheap alternative to an actual metro.
>>2021370Other than the mentioned things above like comfort or capacity, there are plenty of cities in Europe that run long trams that approach metro line capacity and ridership. There are also cities where certain lines have grade-separated sectors or where the tram works are a pre-metro. There are also areas where there are just not enough room for buses.In case of maintenance or an accident there is a bus replacement and generally it is a pain in the ass compared to regularly scheduled trams.
>>2021546>that can carry 300 people at mostyou realize that is still 2-3x the capacity of an average articulated bus man/mercedes/volvo bus right
>>2021370I'm just replying here, just to watch the fireworks go off. OP can suck my balls, he either has brain damage or just wanted to troll so hard that in the end it ended up sounding retarded.
>>2021585why should a bus have its own lane that sits empty for 10 minutes at a time in between buses
>>2023985So you can have more buses and they go faster so there's fewer cars. At least that's what they say.
>>2023453So? A metro train has just about 2-3x the capacity of a tram.
>>2024034at a lot more than 2-3x the cost!
>>2024034Not necessary, there are plenty of metro lines with smaller vehicles. The new M4 line in Milan uses 50m vehicles for example. M3 line too. The Copenhagen metro uses the same rolling stock but an ever shorter version, 39m long trains. Barcelona metro has plenty of shorter vehicles too. etc.. In the US there is not a single metro line outside New York that would carry above a long tram capacity.
>>2024090Some Metro trains are xboxhueg, iirc Mexico City has some 9-car trains. But your point stands.Barcelona is a good example since it has both a 2nd gen tram built to quite large standards and a subway. The main subway uses 5-car trains exclusively, there's some local lines on a suburban line with 4 and 3-car trains. The standard 5-car trains carry about 900 pax, the tram when running a full double composition carries 440 pax.Commercial speed is around 24 kph on the subway and 18 kph on the tram. Barcelona is the perfect example for the diminishing returns between 2nd gen tram and subway. The downside however is that a tram built to those standards can't be built on just any road, only on major thoroughfares, or alternatively it needs to take up the whole road, and it aldo needs enough space for the 80m long trams. But wherever possible and so long it's not absolute peak demand I'd rather build trams like that rather than subways, the same investment would get you easily like 3 to 5 times as much tram line as you'd get subway. The tram is also much nicer to ride, no stairs and no lifts for wheelchairs which are a pain in the ass because they often break down and then people in wheelchairs or with prams can't use that station.
>>2024086>muh costif we're gonna cheap out on everything, just force everyone to ride a bike on dirt paths
>>2023349>Nowadays the only point I see to them is a cheap alternative to an actual metroPretty much. It doesn't make sense to build heavy rail unless the route is very densely populated, but sometimes they need more capacity than a bus, so trams fill that niche
Gotta swallow a few camels to have efficient transport thorugh the city centre.
>>2024131Then nobody gets any work done so we achieve true communism as the starvation sets in.
>>2024210Wow that's crazy, they should just use buses and subways, those have famously never had an accident ever.
>>2024247a bus could have stopped
>>2021370Are you from Australia? They work really well in Melbourne and they're a massive part of the CBD transport network and most people use them to get from A to B during the day.
>>2024211yeah, exactly. that's why "muh cost" is never an argument. either do things properly or don't do them.
>>2024270It's just not realistic that they'd build heavy rail everywhere. They built a 16km subway extension here and it cost like two billion. Meanwhile 26km of light rail was 400 million
>>2021370>and full of carsThat's the problem, not the trams.>Mum crosses the street with her strollerHowever, in any city where there are trams, a thousand times more people die under the wheels of cars than under the wheels of a tram.
>>2021431>they are more quietNo.The rest is true though.
>>2024308>a thousand times more peopleconsidering there's a hundred thousand times more cars than trams...this isn't much of a zinger
>>2024308>>2024314and it's not even true. it's nearly an even split, actually.
>>2021478I was that tourist. I found it a sad ride: You only go straight and can walk the distance from end to end in 20 minutes. Besides, there's little to see in that city centre. I remember a Starbucks, a small library and the fruit in the "old" market was rotten. Probably most Euros visiting during the World Cup will be amazed at how different a US city centre is from the old continent, I know I was.
>>2021370Toronto has entered the chat. I love the streetcars in toronto but you are kind of right.
>>2024505We can't replace the streetcars with buses even if they're inefficient, like they carry more people than many American *subway* lines do. Also it's kinda not even their fault since they were built before the war
The only correct answer to inner city transit is monorail to be honest.
>>2021370>And if someone walks out on the tracks in front of you, apart from blowing your horn at them and hope they notice you, you as a conductor can effectively do nothing but look on>The perfect urban transit method has already been invented and it's called a busif I had to choose to be hit by a bus or tram then it's going to be the tram
>>2021370you are delusional but I acknowledge your feelings https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5DjOL2we8ko
>>2027344the bus wont hit you cause it can brake
>>2021370I guess people wouldn't get it if I didn't explain it but anyone else notice how everything outside the tram suddenly becomes more chaotic than it really is just because a train on tracks appeared I wonder what would happen if two trams meet on the street>metro trains (carry more people faster over longer distances)I can play that game you play as well but betterdoesn't look very safe https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUPJckUSdzo
>>2021370Very late to the thread. But I've seen how pedestrians fucking act around trams. I am not surprised about the accident numbers. Same here in NL. Cheap electrical bicycles called FAT bikes. Popular cause cheaper than regular electrical bikes. Very popular amongst kids. Way more accidents including deadly ones because of it. People are blaming the product. If you ask me. nothing wrong with the product. Something wrong with the user. Probably just shouldn't let your kid ride electrical bicycles.
>>2024392That was zone 1 Theyve completed extensions 2 ond 3 which goes down main and extends down to the Plaza shopping mall and the University of Missouri @ Kansas City. (54th street)
trams alone carried almost 400 million people last year in my city, good look replacing thatwe already have permanent bus replacement in some places where trams used to be a thing and its not good
>>2027716>400 million people >in my cityWhat's the deal with you pussies
>>2021370>road traffic especially in cities is busy and full of cars, cyclists and pedestrians going every which way. Now add to that that you're gonna be sharing a lane with a TRAINholy fucking BASED imma CHOO CHOO MOTHERFUCKER up in this bitch city *reks your shitbox car* OUT THE FUCKING WAY PLEBS DID YOU NOT HEAR ME SAY DING DING *runs over a family of migrants*
>>2027716Melbourne carried 150 million, Toronto 70, where are you getting these stats lmao
>>2027753Zurich carried 200 million on less than a third of the track length of Melbourne.
>>2027753here are the stats for my city in millionsin order>bus>trams>trolley>metro>suburban rail>total>passenger km >>2027755yeah and zürich is a relatively small city. cities like berlin, budapest, prague, vienna, etc. in this region carry a lot of people with trams
>>2027773>my cityPussy
>>2027774stop replying to me you weirdo
>>2027776Stop being a pussy and just name what city it is. You don't even have to say "my city" or indicate you live there dumb fuck
>>2027777>
>>2021370Trams make every city better. Most /n/ form of transport in existence. Just run it on a separate lane than regular car traffic, retard.
>>2027778What are you scared of? Your city has millions of people. Stop pussyfooting around and just say which one
>>2024277then build proper light rail instead of cope cucktrams.
>>2027347schizo ass post, with reddit hints of "muh fallacy" and "muh the internet is a debate club"
>>2027347>everything outside the tram suddenly becomes more chaotic than it really is just because a train on tracks appearedtwo conflicting systems cause chaos when they're forced together, yes.
what an absolute pleb thread.trams are the BEST form of urban transit.>not safehow? they do not go with a 150km/h just 30-40.they have their dedicated lane with tracks where you can cross just by looking left and right.pic related is the tram line 4-6it has 350.000 passangers daily in the city of Budapest (1.7 million residents)it goes for about 30 minutes connecting the whole city center.hundreds of passangers can get into one tram.it stops every few hundred meters, it takes you very close to your desired location.its crossing the metro lines 8xit has connection to 2 suburban railway lines and a train station.in rush hour the trams come and go every 120 seconds!honestly how could you beat that?its somewhat slower than the metro and has more stops, yet its just as frequent and at least you see the city while you travel.its espacially beautiful to cross the Danube at night with the tram.how can you hate trams for real?
I genuinely doubt trams are any more dangerous than buses.
>>2027864What even counts as a "proper" light rail? If you make it fully grade separated then at that point it's just a train. Light rail is basically a tram with more separation from other traffic, but it's still a tram
>>2028131>Light rail is basically a tram with more separation from other traffic, but it's still a tramIt essentially just refers to a segregated tram system, as a way to distinguish it mainly from 1st gen tram systems which don't have such a level of grade separation. But it's still a stupid distinction, because no advanced country is building any tram system that isn't at least in large part segregated. Only third world countries like the US do that.
>>2028131>What even counts as a "proper" light rail?Monorail is the only light rail because it isn't build to collide with road vehicles.>>2027978Monorail can do all or better, while not interfering with other traffic like >>2027979 or >>2027344 or taking up space with "grade separation"
>>2028177monorail is an ugly gimmick
>>2028169I suppose one distinction is what kind of average speed and service they're aiming for. They opened a new tram line around here, it mostly has its own lane in the middle of the road and goes a long stretch through a park, but the stops are around 400 meters apart on average, whereas it's around 800 on the light rail type routes. But then they're just called trams and "fast trams" here, instead of light rail
>>2028131>If you make it fully grade separated then at that point it's just a trainyeah, so not a tram, and thus something that actually works without having to spend 10 trillion shekels on heavy rail.
>>2023233I know rightgive my wooden comunal 1800-family sized chariot
>>2028283Isn't the grade separation the thing that makes train lines expensive, doesn't really matter how big the train is. For example the Copenhagen metro is fairly small, the trains are like 44 meters long so basically tram-sized, but the M3 cost over 3 billion dollars to construct, and I believe the other lines are around a billion as well. Comparable to when they extended the metro in Helsinki, the cost was around two billion but the trains are 90 meters (they used to be 120, but they decided to save like 20 million by making the new stations shorter and cucking the whole system lol)On the other hand now they're improving a suburban line in Helsinki, currently it has two tracks but they're adding two more so that the suburban trains and long distance trains have their own tracks. But that's only costing 400 million for 14 kilometers, which is similar to the new light rail lines they're going to construct. But I guess it helps that the route already exists and they're not building a bunch of tunnels or bridges. There's a clip https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNOOW_98jAkSo I guess ultimately it depends on what kind of environment you're trying to squeeze that new line into. If it's already fairly densely built then you're going to need a bunch of tunnels, aqueducts or something which will increase the cost, if you don't want to settle on having sections on normal streets. One of those new light rail lines will have an 800m tunnel going under a train station, which will increase the cost by 100 million
>>2023289>Car stalls on tram tracks>Guaranteed accident because the Tram doesn't have brakes
>>2028352Good cars deserve it
>>2021433>if you get hit by a tram as a pedestrian you're retardedyeah, I'm fine with some people winning the Darwin award because they're at the mental level of a pajeet trying to get crushed by a jugernaut
>>2029566>winning the Darwin awardFresh
>>2021370Trams are comfy as shit and you can go fuck yourself. Buses are not as comfortable, and trams are usually way faster.
>>2029639I like trams as much as any foamer but the reason those things can go "fast" (actually, they are not very fast) is that there's no one blocking the right of way. Buses could have this too, but oink oink oink blue lives matter (if you disagree with me I will report you for being racist against the race of pigs)
>>2023077>Tram make no noiseThey make some noise but even that noise could be easily fixed. I bet that there are many different solutions to fix this problem.https://youtu.be/Rdj5-6t6QI8
>>2029741I was just watching this and it got me thinking.https://youtu.be/CBMVbKrz-Ig&t=398
Update on the doubling of the Kansas City streetcar. In 2025 the expansion of the main line will be from the World War 1 Memorial at General Jack Pershing Boulevard all the way south to the County Club Plaza at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xoe6B_806z0The expansion hasn't been without issue as longtime businesses are seeing higher property tax valuations and special assessment zones. The 'black side' of town still doesn't have their streetcar line yet. The North-South line goes through white majority neighborhoods.
>>2029746is that the siamese twin sisters where there's two heads and one pelvis and one you-know-what?
>>2023077
Trams in the US were historically built by real estate developers who built the streetcar suburbs. They were around before cars.Then some dimwits decided to scrap the trams and enforce car-dependency. Now Americans miss having trams.
>>2029748>Siamese twinsTwo girls, one fuck
>>2029779Yeah perhaps we ought to go back to the horse and buggy days too. Get the fuck outta here shill
>>2021370>Did you know 48 % of all pedestrian injuries and fatalities in Gotheburg were caused by trams?absurd lie, in 2017-2019 it was 9 pedestrians hit by trams, compared to 52 pedestrians hit by carsyou have to be especially retarded to get hit by a fucking tram
Melbourne would be a pain in the arse to get around if there were no trams.
>>2021370>take a train and put it on a roadIn a majority of tram systems I've ever used, the tram is placed in its own right of way (usually a road median) everywhere except the urban core.
>>2029922>everywhere except the urban corei.e. the worst bit?
>>2029836Ex-Melbournefag (now Seattlefag) here: agree.
>>2029922>In a majority of tram systems I've ever used, the tram is placed in its own right of way (usually a road median) everywhere except the urban core.The Kansas City streetcar uses existing roads and an existing lane of traffic that may be used by cars as well IIRC. They don't have the right of way to traffic per se but S.C.O.U.T. flips the lights when they see the streetcar approaching.
