What exactly is wrong with congestion pricing in general? Most people in NYC don't drive so they shouldn't subsidize roads. Also lol taxis being 1/5 motorbikes
In the case of NYC it mainly benefits the elite who can afford to live there by better air quality on the terraces of their 100mil+ penthouses.The people who pay it are working people namely contractors and service workers who need to get there to to their jobs.It's called regressive taxation which means it's not just unethical but also hampers the economy because more money in the hands of the elite won't circulate but more money in the hand of working people will.
>>2026973>regressive taxationThat's quite the grasp. The poor are the only ones that use public transit in America. And poor neighborhoods are welcome to install their own higher congestion tax to move traffic back into Manhattan.
>>2026975nta but they didn't say "poor" they said "working people". why is it that you people say "omg he can afford to take 6 days off a year without becoming homeless, he's basically an oligarch" when you're fighting policies primarily aimed at making life easier on people who make under $100k, but you wring your hands at the "class warfare socialism" when someone else opposes a policy that only benefits literal oligarchs who own $30 million pied a terres in tribeca that they use three days a year
I don't know how congestion zones work because I'm not a thirdie. How are these enforced? Is there like a camera at every entrance/exit that records your license?
>>2026981Every piece of your argument is such extensive strawman that I have to think that there's 0 truth to your side.
>>2026973>The people who pay it are working people namely contractors and service workers who need to get there to to their jobs.No service worker/wagie drives into Manhattan let alone in a truck. Tradies can just tack on an additional "congestion fee" to their bill. Your hand-wringing is gay.
>>2026991>Workers can just tack on the congestion fee... TO YOU!You're a real dumbass, you know that?
>>2026991>nobody needs to do anything in manhattan, the super takes care of thatunderage detected
>>2026969The auto industry loses money. That's it. That's why there's so many shills trying to stop it.
Nothing, cagers just screech nonstop and think they have the right to ruin every city center.
>>2027009>>2027020Cagetrolls BTFO again, Chang!
>>2026973>*adds 24 dollars to the bill*wasn't so hard now was it?
>>2026992>>2026999Literally ignoring the salient point that wagies dont drive into manhattan; stay mad, turbofaggots
why do taxies pay so little
>>2027031>It's okay to pay more for everyday services because the government needs to get its cut.
>>2027035>surface streets reaching maximum saturation>literally no way to increase supply of roads because its lower fucking manhattan>only logical next step is curtailing demand>this confuses and angers the retard
>>2027026This schizo needs a name. I dub him Schizina.Is Chang in the room with us now, Schizina?
>>2027031Wagies and hourlies do in fact drive into manhattan though, you are just wildly out of touch, as expected of this board. I had a job with a contractor as a kid driving in and out of manhattan with a station wagon full of equipment. Those kinds of people aren't broke, but they are working class, and it's perfectly on brand for /n/ to want to put a tax on them so that the ultra-wealthy can have nicer air.
>>2027033urbanists like op need their uber/lyfts to ferry them between brooklyn and manhattan especially when the g train runs once every hour on weekend nightswatch special exemptions for ups/amazon/fedex/doordash in the next year toothis whole congestion charge is a giant fuck you to everyone who doesnt live within 1/2 a mile of a subway stop>>2027045my environmental consulting job had me driving my moms minivan everyday from queens to manhattan or sometimes even jersey/rockland with a trunk full of air sampling equipment to measure air quality at construction sitesi was making $18-25/hr until i got a job for the city and quit, they usually paid for my parking but still doesnt mean i want to give free money to the mta who can't even make people who use the system pay for it. i went to mexico city last week and even the mexicans weren't beating fares unless they wanted to get tackled by a transit cop (usually hanging out at the turnstiles)
>>2027045Please refer to >>2026991 - and before you continue your pearl-clutching Im both a tradie and a motorist. Our costs literally get foisted onto the customer (one reason why a regular oil change in 2024 costs as much as a synthetic change in 2017) - also the wealthy (((socialites))) who live in Manhattan can take a slight uptick in costs on the chin when it comes to having to pay a plumber/electrician/HVAC tech. [Verifcation not required]
>>2027049the only problem with your theory is that there's a whole peninsula to the east of manhattan that has to go through manhattan to join the rest of the country, and most of the people on that peninsula arent wealthy socialitesrouting them all through the bronx/staten island is just redistributing traffic onto the outerboroughs
>>2027053Congestion pricing only applies to surface streets below 60th - Staten islandlets can still take the bayonne bridge wothout getting dinged
>>2027043Not that anon but they already reduced supply with road diets/bike lanes. Unfortunately, since induced demand doesn't actually work the way this board thinks it does it didn't make traffic vanish into the ether.
>>2027059Is the induced demand in the room with us right now anon?
>>2027054>BZZT, Citizen you deviated from your expected route into Zone Prime 001, a fee has been deducted from your account.How utterly dystopian. Freedumb aint free lmao.
>>2026969What's wrong with congestion pricing is that it's a tax with zero ethical grounds. People pay yearly registration taxes, gas taxes, and other such infrastructure taxes which give them every right to use the public roads. The government doesn't own every dollar you make and graciously allow you to keep some, your money is YOURS unless there's a really good reason to take it from you. And no, "this zillionaire socialite wants quiet streets in the Tribeca walk-up they only use four days a year" is not a good reason.>>2027043>logical next step is curtailing demandThen build more/better ways around Manhattan for Long Islanders or Queensfags trying to get to Jersey, or Staten Islanders trying to get upstate>>2027054Nice reading comprehension, retard, now address the fact that the GWB and SIE are just as log jammed as Manhattan streets, and taking the Lincoln/Holland tunnels out of the equation isn't going to help.>2027062>pretending to be ignorant of the constant "people will stop driving if we force--i mean provide--alternatives!" argument from numtits
>>2027064>Government builds the roads >tells you when and where to park on its roads>the speed at which you may travel on its roads>already monitors any and all who travels on its roads with CCTV>REEEEEE CONGESTION PRICING IS TYRANNYOr just ride a bike and dispense with that bullshit you stupid homo>>2027065Acknowledging that on the same footprint/ROW you can tramsport more people and freight with subway/rail than with cars and trucks is not a conspiracy to push the "induced demand" buzzword which I hear tossed around more as a boogeyman for dipshits like yourself, as if getting people out of cars is more radical than>build more/better ways around Manhattan for Long Islanders or Queensfags trying to get to Jersey, or Staten Islanders trying to get upstateWhich sounds like an efficient use of space, time, and money you fucking cretin
>>2026969The problem really is the truck charges, that is going to make all goods in the congestion zone absurdly expensive due to delivery cost.
>>2026969>What exactly is wrong with congestion pricing in general?It requires a massive fuck you in the ass intrusive surveillance system to run and that has big overhead and potential for abuse. It's the same line of thinking as trying to turn every single road and walkway into a toll, and every celphone into a tattler on traffic and motion. There's a benefit to free movement of people and money, and letting free market principles balance out demand, rather than putting up tarrifs fences and borders everywhere. It's a clumsy and misguided command economy.
>>2027094>It's a clumsy and misguided command economy.The fuck? This is the exact fucking opposite. It's a hyper-capitalist, "prove your trip generates enough economic activity to justify taking space away from actually valuable economic activity."How can you call people first-come-first-serve on the limited road space anything other than communism? It's literally a fucking bread queue.Enjoy lining up for hours for your government ration of road use.
>>2026975>And poor neighborhoods are welcome to install their own higher congestion tax to move traffic back into Manhattan.They are not. You need state and federal approval to do this.
>>2027043It won't reduce traffic. It won't curtail demand, as poor people stop driving in, there will be less traffic and it will encourage more rich people to drive in. Induced demand, traffic will remain the same but the average income of car drivers will increase.Also, majority of traffic in the congestion zone is Rideshare and Taxi which is effectively exempt from the tax.
>>2027116>it will encourage more rich people to drive in.As if rich people weren't already driving in?
>>2027092>efficient use of space, time, and moneyIf you look at where the money goes in the MTA around half of it is administration costs (extremely high). Why not do cutbacks in bloated admin costs and instantly free up budget for transit improvements rather than wring citizens for even more money?
>>2027124What?! Are you insane?! We need these administrators and programs. They're important sources of employment for the invalids, the incompetent, and other elements of the lumpenprole. It's a human right that these people receive a government job for life.
>>2026975This will massively increase price of goods in the congestion zone though, which will affect poorer people disproportionately as they're less able to go elsewhere for their goods, and will affect smaller businesses disproportionately as they're less able to pay the massively inflated delivery costs.
>>2027125urbanists:>nooo you can't just have rules! real estate development corps should be able to do what they want including lead paint and no fire codes! who cares if millions of kids grow up with brain damage and can't do anything useful? all these rules are impeding progress!urbanists:>whoa why are there all these brain damaged adults who can't function in society? you can't just let people rob and steal! the government should stop this!also urbanists:>noooo you can't just give handouts! those people should have to work like anyone else!also urbanists:>noooo you can't just give people jobs! that's socialism, they should be left to their own devices!also urbanists: >nooo why are all these people homeless! someone needs to do something!also urbanists>whoa why do we have a per capita incarceration rate that rivals xinjiang? quick, give more money to corporations!rinse and repeat
It’ll generate a lot of revenue and ridership for transit.
>>2027092>You're already getting fucked in the ass, why NOT put spikes on the dildo? >>2027108When the government makes you pay them money, that's not capitalism. Words have meanings, you don't get to just redefine them on the fly.
>>2026969>Most people in NYC don't drive so they shouldn't subsidize roadsBut everyone benefits from the transportation network, regardless if the personally drive. And in any case, if people got to opt out of taxes for services they don't use then most services would collapse immediately
>>2026969public transit is slow as shit in nyc and full of violent retards and troons and no I am not exaggerating. the congestion shit is unpopular as fuck with the majority of the city to the point where the governor delayed it because it would have caused a bunch of dems to lose their jobs in the election.
>>2026982I don’t commute to NY, but they might be enforced at the bridges. As you can see from the map, Manhattan is an island so it’s easy to require tolls on bridge crossings from the surrounding areas.
>>2026969>Most people in NYC don't drive so they shouldn't subsidize roads.cool, by your logic people shouldn't subsidize mass transit or bike lanes
>>2027152The fucking fuck are you talking about? Every capitalist government has taxes.Funny enough, the only way a government can run without taxes is if they have a state corporation that pay their profits into government revenue. You see this mostly in oil-producing countries these days. Though I believe Egypt also funds their military largely through state monopolies on things like gasoline.
>>2027152>>You're already getting fucked in the ass, why NOT put spikes on the dildo>He said on a board devoted to solutions to not getting fucked in the ass, in a thread discussing discouraging people getting fucked in the ass.>Actually getting fucked in the ass is great, until people get charged slightly more for the privilege >If youre not in favor of a culture of forced assfucking youre a commie/troon/third-worlder
>>2027177Ah yes, the "we just want alternatives" argument on a thread that involves paying an extra toll to drive to fund the perpetually broke mass transit system.
>>2027180Hey if you enjoy getting assfucked dont let me rain on your (pride) parade - you do you boo
Once this is in place I hope there's a few hundred chuds with tape on their plates running coal through the """zone""".Or better yet a few elevator repair companies deciding to just no longer do business in the area.
>>2027176You know full well what he's talking about you disingenous nigger. Bullshit arbitrary taxes are the very first thing you anti-capitalist kikes implement.
>>2027177>a board devoted to solutions to not getting fucked in the ass, in a thread discussing discouraging people getting fucked in the assAh yes, freedom is slavery, off-topic urbanist tranny spam is heterosexual.
>>2027188>off-topic urbanist tranny spam is heterosexual.Hey dont look at me, >>2027152 is the one who compared being a motorist to getting fucked in the ass. Or as Ive already mentioned just ride a bike to avoid the red tape but thats trannypilled or something according to you guys. I dont know why you come to a board on transportation to expound your homosexual fantasies/ideas.
>>2026969>6969>NiceI was in NYC lately and the level of butthurt over this is actually comical. Know one guy who actually drives into Manhattan to work fairly often, so for him I kind of get it. But there's this other dude who's never owned a car in his life and the tv still gets him fired up as shit about it. Muh freedoms etc. Meanwhile he also bitches without cease about traffic, how slow and expensive the bus is... confounding. Contrary to popular belief, NYC is mostly not that different politcally from a trailer park in Nebraska. Everybody shrieks about "welfare queens" and any new taxes but somehow simulataneously, unironically believes that they're entitled to all the things the government has to give THEM and, actually, that they should be getting more
>>2027191More proof that "Democratic" blue cities are anything but, the corrupt bureaucratic class owns the government in these places and any votes against their agenda or for someone who would check their power are simply not counted.
>>2026969Crazy that the Yanks fought us because of a 2% tax, and now they just find new ways to tax their own. It's almost like hypocritical treason.
>>2027201Bro London has had a congestion charge since 2003, don't pretend your government isn't far more totalitarian.
>>2027204>London has had a congestion charge since 2003And did it work? mwhahaha lmao
>>2027176>Every capitalist government has taxes.Just because they call themselves capitalist doesn't make it so. The official name for North Korea is "The DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of Korea" but that doesn't make it democratic or for the people. An Ayn Rand capitalist would call taxation theft and/or tyranny, and whatever social programs it benefits "socialism". I'm not saying pure capitalism is good, but a government taking money from citizens doesn't fit the definition.
>>2027190>compared being a motorist to getting fucked in the ass.Getting fucked in the ass by the government. And I'll still lube up rather than endure pubtrans until that improves significantly. Doesn't mean I enjoy getting my wallet gaped, and it CERTAINLY means I don't appreciate an attempt to make it any worse. It's just that arguments about >previous taxes>high tolls>ridiculous "no parking" zones that apply on M,W,Th,F but not Tu,Sa,Su unless it's the second full moon of the season and raining, etcdon't magically make increased punishments for existing any better. Just because gun owners didn't boogaloo over the NFA doesn't mean they would appreciate all guns being banned.
>>2027234"Real" capitalism doesn't exist just as communism. What a surprise! Yet there'snoless democracy in North Korea than in the us.
>>2027176>Every capitalist governmentEvery government has taxes.Yes, at the moment there's not a a single state in the world that is not capitalist. But in the past there were. And, surprise!, they also collected taxes.
>>2027172What about like London for example
>>2027235>And I'll still lube up rather than endure pubtrans Pretty much stopped reading there lolAlso, you forgot>Bikes>Walking
>>2027177>youre a commieImplying commies are not the only living beings on this planet worthy of being called human.
>>2027320Keep seething.
>>2027244the ulez is a purer form of preventing the poor from driving. With just a congestion charge a "poor" can budget for when he wants or needs to drive in the congestion charge area, with the ulez he needs a whole new car. >>2026982I believe the roads surrounding the zone are open, if you were to turn off them into the interior of Manhattan camera enforcement charges you. I believe that there will be some sort of bridge/tunnel toll + congestion charge discount >>2027033taxis/uber are public transport. But they also take up space. I'd imagine that the price is there to ask the passenger: "Is this more convenient then the subway?" I can't imagine a 1.25/2.50 fare increase once changing my habit, but the change is at the margin.
>>2027191yimbys who have never lived in a city don't get it because they think it's "humans vs cars" and anyone who doesn't drive must have a deep seated desire to punish drivers whereas all we want is a fair system that makes things safe and efficient for non-drivers, which this is not
>the people pretending like millions of wagies drive into manhattan every day only 1/3 of new york drives to work and that includes outer queens and staten island, shut the fuck up you stupid ass bay ridge cagecucks
>>2027382Again, the problem is not people driving to work being taxed, it's all goods coming into or through Manhattan being taxed. It's going to make everything people who live or work in Manhattan (and possibly Brooklyn and parts of Queens as well) purchase way more expensive.
>>2027383there should be hundreds of barges plying up and down the hudson delivering goods from the mainland to manhattanit doesnt even make sense to drive an 18 wheeler in new york
>>2027384*in manhattan goods to long island can travel on the 3 highway connections it has to the bronx bypassing long island
>>2027246Neither of those are viable form of transportation for anyone who's not a NEET. This is just a motte and bailey fallacy for trannies like you to attack cars and shill for government regulatory capture while you pretend to be a nootral bystander.
>>2027384This is sillier than the idea of forcing trucks to load things into train terminals. Adding arbitrary load/unload to logistics drives up the cost and time to get to a destination, and it's not like Manhattan doesn't already have a problem with expensive, wilted produce.
>>2027411>calls people tranny>is tacitly on the side of "I want to get fucked in the ass"What did he mean by this?
>>2027429>if I call him a tranny that'll deflect from me being a faggot!Once again take it up with >>2027235 and >>2027152 its not my job to keep you up to speed on the conversation, homo <@:^)
Why stop there? We should make Cagies pay back EVERYTHING they cost society. It would solve the problem overnight.
>>2027027>t. price elasticity of demand for less urgent services (majority)>t. monopolistic competitors market structure
>>2026969motorbikes should be exempt like in London, how the fuck do motorbikes cause congestion?
>>2026969>What exactly is wrong with congestion pricingIt's less the idea and more the overall price. If it was just a couple bucks more expensive than a subway ticket, it would be annoying but tolerable. It being 15 bucks means if you have to into in the zone for your job, even briefly, you have to pay 15 bucks a day, which is 75 bucks a week.
>>2027533>motorbikes should be exempt like in London, how the fuck do motorbikes cause congestion?Motorbikes don't cause congestion, but bikers have money that the MTA can extract, and they don't have a powerful lobbying arm, so they are not exempt.
>>2026969I forsee a lot of BOH kitchen workers on/just below 60th having to cart deliveries several blocks to save their boss a few dollars.
>>2027658Cringe. How old are you? 7?
>>2027658Commies and CEOs are both evil, and when they collaborate (as they often do these days unfortunately) they create giga evil.
>>2027670>Anteaters and termites are both evil, and when they collaborate (as they often do these days unfortunately) they create giga evil.You're retarded.also /transportation/?
how do people do this>congestion pricing will eliminate traffic>congestion pricing will raise so much revenue we can do everythingat the same time lol
>>2027717because Manhattan is in a certain sense the centre of the universe, you have almost infinite demand. You can raise the price until the traffic is free flowing at rush hour, at that price point you have almost infinite revenue.But I doubt $15 is enough to impact congestion.
>>2027720>You can raise the price until the traffic is free flowing at rush hour, at that price point you have almost infinite revenue"Free flowing at rush hour" means almost everyone has moved out. Thinking taxes are "infinite revenue" is retarded under any circustance.
>>2027031>wagies dont drive into manhattanYeah retard, next time your pipes burst the plumber is going to ride in on the subway or bicycle
>>2027798Hello dipshit you missed >>2026991Contractors will just charge more, unless youre really concerned that Mr. Noseberg is getting dinged with a bigger bill.
>>2027767Then we lower the price until we have traffic again. No biggie. The Laffer curve is real
>>2027804>No biggie.The forces setting rates have no reason to care or optimize for that. Once the assfucking machine is in place, asses will get fucked for the sake of assfucking. Protection of revenue above any negative externaltities.>>2027767Just even the way the proposition is framed is indicative of disaster.
Wendover is shilling for ithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2j-LgcA7Gkit boils down to >yes it's elitist butThe only valid argument is that IF the revenue from it flows into the MTA budget public transportation can improve.And for that I'd say just allot a bigger budget and if the city needs money tax property, that's ethical and can't be circumvented because buildings don't move.
>>2028164>The only valid argument is that IF the revenue from it flows into the MTA budget public transportation can improve.It won't, it will disappear under "administration costs" with zero improvement in the actual system
