“But I raised an issue, saying we didn’t hear what specific countries will join this initiative, and whether the U.S. will be there,” Zelenskyy said.

The Ukrainian leader is determined for his country to become a NATO member. The alliance’s 32 member countries say that Ukraine will join one day, but not until the war ends.

“The deployment of European troops (to keep the peace in Ukraine) should not rule out Ukraine’s future in NATO,” Zelenskyy said in the television interview.

Zelenskyy described the incursion by Ukrainian forces into Russia’s Kursk border region as a “very strong trump card” in any future peace negotiations.

In a bid to counter glum news from the front line, Ukraine seized part of Kursk last August in what was the first occupation of Russian territory since World War II.

But the incursion didn’t significantly change the dynamic of the war, and military analysts say Ukraine has lost around 40% of the land it initially captured.

Nevertheless, Zelenskyy said that the achievement impressed countries in Asia, South America and Africa, and tarnished Russia’s military reputation.

>Guy in charge of country at war says to the man coming into office of US President, "Yes, you are very strong, you can absolutely end thus war, just keep supplying me."
Wow

>>1372570
Another jew on trump's side? Color me surprised.

>>1372573
Well, the US strategy so far has been to slow Russian advances as much as possible while simultaneously ensuring that US defense industries make as much profits as possible, and as many people will be killed as possible on both sides.
Given that, it's not surprising Zelensky is backing someone offering an alternative strategy

>>1372584
Grant the eastern Russian portions of Ukraine their autonomy and get the rest of Ukraine into NATO or at the very least arm them aggressively and insert NATO peacekeepers.
It gives Russia the NATO buffet zone they want, as well as autonomy of the Russian regions, and it secures non Russian Ukraine from further incursions

>>1372592
so, capitulate to invaders

>>1372570
Trump is too good and based for this demented planet we live in. Fuck this fake and gay planet

>>1372593
>so, capitulate to invaders
Neither side gets everything they want.
The best compromises makes neither side completely happy.
Ukraine isn't getting those territories back, but I don't put it past you to fail to see reason.

>>1372596
neville chamberlain thought he was reasonable too

>>1372593
What other pragmatic option exists than a compromise?
Continue to draft 20 year olds from Ukraine and send them to the meat grinder? All out war with Russia?
Come on man, think with your head and not with the mass outrage media

>>1372599
i'm not ukrainian, but it's pretty condescending to disparage someone's outrage over being invaded and terrorized

>>1372601
So you have no fucking solution. I'm not Ukrainian either but it doesn't take a Ukrainian to understand that even tho it sucks, they are not getting those territories back.
Russia has absolutely zero incentive to return them. And I'd prefer they keep them then us engage in total war against their country.

If you want to keep the decision making up the the Ukrainians then we shouldn't be involved in the first place

>>1372603
your "solution" isn't a solution, it's giving up. if ukraine is willing to fight, let them fight

>>1372604
>if ukraine is willing to fight, let them fight
I totally agree. If they want to fight, let them. We don't need to be a apart of it. If they want our help in defending themselves, a compromise must be made, and fighting to the last Ukrainian on the US's dime is not a compromise.

The territories are lost, they can either continue to die trying to get them back, or everyone can cut their losses now and Russia gets their buffer zone, and Ukraine gets filled with NATO peacekeepers and defenders to stop this from ever happening again

>>1372603
If I worded this another way, there is no benefit to Ukraine for continuing to fight. There is benefit for us, which is further weakening Russia and growing our defense industry.

The emotional solution at this point is to not waver and continue letting Ukraine fight over lost land. The logical solution at this point is to cut losses, let there be an independent buffer zone, and then let Ukraine join NATO, or arm them to the teeth with NATO defenders once peace is negotiated

>>1372594
Don't do it anon! Don't immolate yourself outside tRump tower in a tesla. If you must, use a Ford F-150. But please stay alive, as our Dear leader needs your donations for lawyers for the arduous lawfare waged against him

>>1372606
>which is further weakening Russia and growing our defense industry.
At the expense of our national debt, which we increase via inflation, which makes the working class poorer.
I don't give a fuck about russia. I care about affording milk and gas. And eventually a house.
Every neocon cocksucker that keeps trying to shame me out of economic stability deserves to be dragged through the streets.

>>1372608
There's that whole thing too, yeah

>>1372608
nice exhausted talking points there, mr neutral

>>1372612
Not sure if you couldn't tell, but I wasnt replying to myself: >>1372606 with this post: >>1372608

>>1372612
Kill yourself you warmongering fuck.

>>1372614
move to russia faggot

>>1372604
>if ukraine is willing to fight, let them fight
Another response to this, not unlike what was said by >>1372614 >>1372608 albeit not nearly as unhinged...

While I acknowledge that the US has a history of arming just about any militant group who's willing to fight against one of our strategic enemies, such as Ukraine is willing to, I don't think this is the best strategy here. The point of Nash's equilibrium in this scenario leans heavily towards the option of "make peace and ensure it never happens again" and not "continue doing what we've been doing"

I still don't get why russia bothered with this war. The zones they control now were already their proxies. Now the russian economy is rocky, their navy is battered, more countries have joined nato, and theyre completely dependent on china and foriegners to refill their workforce. With control of crimea and a little patience they could of had what they do now without a war and none of the drawbacks

>>1372617
Idk anon. Def wasn't a smart move. It is what it is. Russia was concerned Ukraine would be militarized and made a NATO asset, and the US was worried about Russia so they starting arming Ukraine a year before the conflict. It's like both parties concerns manifested the outcome that neither of them wanted, and now everyone is dealing with the fallout of the decisions made by war pigs.

>>1372617
russia has been expansionist for its entire history, if they're not taking some new shit they get restless

>>1372617
They did it because Putin has realized every answer to Russian imperialism has been to just let them take the territory every few years.

>>1372592
Russia will never accept Ukraine being in NATO, even with buffer zones.

>>1372621
Sure, I agree that's a hard sale. International peacekeepers would be much easier though.

>>1372616
>make peace and ensure it never happens again
and how does one go about doing that

>>1372624
he doesn't want that shit either. he wants ukraine. the blue helmets are about as useful as tits on a bull.

>>1372627
and how does one go about doing that
just let them have austria, what's the worst that can happen

>>1372628
>and how does one go about doing that
By people letting him. Which is why he should be broken in Ukraine. Peace begins with Putin gone, anything less and Russia's is just going to keep doing this shit.

>>1372627
>>1372627
>and how does one go about doing that
You know how you replied to this already.
>>1372627
>he doesn't want that shit either. he wants ukraine
He's not getting Ukraine, and Ukraine isn't getting the eastern ethnic portion of their country back. That's why it's a compromise. Nobody is happy.

Being bullheaded and sending all these Ukrainians to their death while Russia continues to make gains benefits nobody but the US

pretend to be neutral poster is back

>>1372633
Why do pragmatic solutions anger you?

>>1372633
Well, who cares. I doubt Trump is going to continue biden's strategies with Ukraine, all signs point to him moving towards a peace negotiation. I guess time will tell if trump demands Russia give up all Ukrainian territory or if he wants Ukraine to concede the territory to stop the active hot conflict.

Because what you want doesn't really matter at all, and in all honesty, what ukraine or Zelensky want doesn't matter either. It's all going to be dependent upon what America wants and what Russia wants.

>>1372637
>all signs point to him moving towards
all signs also pointed to him lowering grocery prices, and he's already admitted both that and Ukraine are going to be harder than he said.
The only thing he's going to take care of is lowering taxes for corporations and the rich.

>>1372636
appeasement is historically the opposite of pragmatic

>>1372637
>. I doubt Trump is going to continue biden's strategies with Ukraine, all signs point to him moving towards a peace negotiation
I wouldn't be surprised if he makes some post on truth social claiming Zelensky became a dictator when he suspended all democratic elections and then al qaeda inexplicably shows up in the country armed with US weapons and overthrows Zelensky

>>1372639
Peace prevents loss of life.
The US has prevented Ukraine from accepting peace deals because they are trying to atomize the Ukrainian population of fighting aged men, not protect Ukraine.

>>1372641
fuck off, Russia started the war
you're advocating that anyone attacked should just give up and surrender everything instead of fighting back

>>1372642
well yeah, he's a shill

>>1372642
>you're advocating that anyone attacked should just give up and surrender everything instead of fighting back
You're pretending like every provocation deserves a response, up to and including committing suicide.

>>1372643
Well, no, it's just common sense.
Ukraine isn't winning the war. They have already lost so many men that they won't be able to repopulate naturally.
If you care about Ukraine, you obviously wouldn't want Ukraine to self-destruct. But retards keep coming up with excuses why they *shouldn't* accept a loss and instead grind themselves into dust.
Maybe if you were a realestate developer I could understand. But you're just some faggot on 4chan.

don't tell the shill which side the vast preponderance of suicide videos come from

>>1372646
Nigger, you're the one shilling for war. Peace is never a bad idea unless you are an arms dealer.

>>1372647
you're literally a russia shill begging us to make ukraine stop killing invaders

>>1372648
>you're literally a russia shill
Why? Because I don't want my economy strip-mined to fund a proxy war we are losing?
Feels like I'm back in in 2003 all over again
>hurr durr you don't support endless war? what are you, a terrorist sympathizer?
Kill yourself.

>>1372649
you're the russia shill you disingenuous faggot, if you want russia's economy to recover, tell them to stop invading

>>1372638
>that and Ukraine are going to be harder than he said.
Biden's really fucked up a lot of stuff, I agree

>>1372642
He's right tho.
You have no solution to how Ukraine can win back the land without total war with Russia, because there is none.
Make fucking peace, that 20% of Ukraine is gone, and protect the fuck out of Ukraine moving forward.

It's not "appeasement" even tho that's your favorite current thing buzzword. It's cutting losses and planning strategically instead of emotionally

>>1372652
>Appeasement: a diplomatic strategy that involves making concessions to an aggressive power in order to avoid conflict
wow, you sure are a massive shill faggot

>>1372652
and this is a doublepost, but nobody is tricked by your little sleight of hand "even tho" to try to sound younger. you're an ugly old man being paid to post obvious lies and you should get a new job

>>1372653
Wow so every military treaty ever short of unconditional surrender is appeasement?
Retard.
>>1372654
>Despite you being totally different than this other personal online, I am certain both of you must be the same person
Please take meds anon

>>1372656
nobody wants a horde of manrapists occupying their territory anon, sorry. it's a fact of life

Why do these Ukraine shills get so assblasted when someone presents logical conclusions online?

Ukraine isn't getting their 20% back. It's not happening no matter how much you schizopost online

>>1372657
De facto it's not theirs anymore. They lost it.

if you needed proof of how compromised this board is by russian faggots, look no further

>>1372650
>"I don't want to become bankrupt funding retarded wars."
>UHHH ARE YOU TRYING TO HELP RUSSIA?
KILL YOURSELF
KILL YOURSELF
ABSOLUTELY KILL YOURSELF YOU PRO-WAR, FALSE DICHOTOMY SPITTING SHILL

>>1372661
you're not american anon, we are all very aware

>>1372660
Do you even know how unhinged you come off as to other people?

>>1372663
de facto and de jure you're a faggot

>>1372664
At least I'm not crazy or retarded. More than be said about you though.

>>1372665
your vocabulary seems inadequate for a shitflinging engagement in english

>>1372666
You really do come across as unhinged af tho

>>1372667
you really are obsessed with this thread. what happened?

>>1372658
You're talking to a Ukrainian that fled his country (coward) and is spending his spare time shitposting, or a europoor that wants us to fund the war because they are afraid putin is going to invade them with defunct military equipment from the USSR.

>>1372671
Honestly he's just fkn crazy. Definitely mentally ill

>>1372676
Yeah, in your head. Seek professional help.

>>1372656
>Wow so every military treaty ever short of unconditional surrender is appeasement?
It's appeasement when it's blatantly obvious that one side is just going to try again after rebuilding their forces.

>>1372679
>>1372701
>>1372716
>All the people being replied to have since gone to sleep, yet this shill posting is 24 hours.
Amazing. Do you work in shifts, or are you bots?

>>1372570
>Trump responded favorably to the possibility raised by French President Emmanuel Macron of Western peacekeepers being deployed in Ukraine to oversee an agreement that stops the fighting, Zelenskyy said
Seems reasonable. I know leftists are going to be upset when they hear that we aren't going to force Ukraine to fight down to the last man, but it is what it is.

>>1372780
Just shut up already bro

>>1372793
Why do you insist on shutting up this board though

>>1372592
>Ukraine into NATO
Unlikely to happen anytime soon.
Not only are the current governments of Hungary and Slovakia going to object, I think there is a good case for more reasonable actors to object to, because realistically having Ukraine in NATO at the moment is very risky. And as much as I wish Ukraine would join, at the end of the day those countries' first responsibility are their own interests.
>>1372596
>Neither side gets everything they want
Yet the messaging towards any future would be aggressors would be "you can get away with it, as long as you're stubborn enough". Not a world I would like to live in to be honest
>>1372599
>Continue to draft 20 year olds
The minimum draft age was 27 until it got lowered to 25 sometime last year if I remember correctly.
Either way, the window that has been open since 2022 is closing very fast, but with adequate material support from the west (And the US isn't the only country to blame here, looking at you Scholz) Ukraine could get the initiative back.
Also Russia's whole deal is just waiting for the west to lose interest in supporting Ukraine, so making sure they know we are actually committed to this

>>1372720
Wow they banned the libbot lmao.

>>1372676
>>1372679
>How is the winter in St. Petersburg this year?
>>1372716
>Looks like Ivan didn't get the memo about gaslighting not working on this board
>>1372780
>Are the strawman leftists in your head all pro-Ukraine?
>>1372793
>No one is making you stay here genius. You entered the thread on your own
Good work mods on banning the bot

>>1372965
>Not only are the current governments of Hungary and Slovakia going to object, I think there is a good case for more reasonable actors to object to, because realistically having Ukraine in NATO at the moment is very risky. And as much as I wish Ukraine would join, at the end of the day those countries' first responsibility are their own interests
I agree that NATO membership for Ukraine is an unlikely, though ideal outcome. The far more likely one is having western peacekeepers in Ukraine to guarantee whatever peace deal is brokered remains held.

>>1372965
>Yet the messaging towards any future would be aggressors would be "you can get away with it, as long as you're stubborn enough". Not a world I would like to live in to be honest
Not sure what the other option here is besides letting Ukraine continue losing land in the conflict or total war with Russia, both of which I like the sound of less than the whole stubborn thing

>>1372975
>letting Ukraine continue losing
half the reason they are "losing" is inadequate support from the west. If our government would have wanted to, Ukraine could have had its 1991 borders back. Now the window for that is closing fast (if it even still exist) but adequate support for Ukraine could get them the 2014 borders back
>>1372974
That's probably the bare minimum Ukraine would ask to accept any sort of deal. For them it's a fight for survival and I doubt they'd be interested in giving Russia a break that benefits it more than them.

>>1372976
>half the reason they are "losing" is inadequate support from the west.
Both the US and Russia have been treating Ukraine as a political pawn since the Soviet Union collapsed. I strongly dislike our historic behavior of using the country as a chess piece against our enemies, and if we weren't fully committed to defend it to begin with, I strongly believe we've lost the chance to do so effectively by now, which leads me to what appears to be the a similar solution as Macron suggested, which is to cut losses, Ukraine looses that 20%, and then we actually *commit* to defending the remaining portion of Ukraine with actual boots on ground military force keeping the peace and maintaining the agreed upon peace deal

>>1372976
>half the reason they are "losing" is inadequate support from the west
What the fuck are you saying
We have practically given them a blank check. We've even put American boots on the ground in Ukraine.

Trump's going to was with Denmark for Greenland and questions why it belongs to Denmark

He forgets of course that Denmark has had colonies on Greenland since before the USA was forged

>>1372977
I guess I see your point to some extent. suppose part of me is just upset, that I've been talking about the western lack of commitment and a plan in general for 2 years now and it's frustrating, now that the self fulfilling prophecy is slowly coming true, to see people come out of the woodwork and claim "see, supporting Ukraine until victory is impossible" when that hasn't always been the case (not saying you did that, just in general)
I'm just not convinced if this will stop Putin (or people like him) long term. As much as he'd like to have Ukraine, his greater goal is to fracture NATO and if he senses even a bit of weakness somewhere, he'll be more than happy to exploit it.
>actually *commit* to defending the remaining portion of Ukraine
This would have to be a rock solid commitment. So Putin can't just wait for a populist government to be voted in in the countries involved that would withdraw their commitment or something along those lines.
>>1372986
Kek
Most stuff they get, they get way later than would have been possible and/or in low quantity and/or with tons of restrictions an/or less effective versions of the weapon system (ATACMS and Abrams come to mind)
Remember that lend-lease thing that was passed with bipartisan agreement? As far as I know Biden didn't use a cent of it before it expired, all aid was provided through other mechanisms.
And don't worry, I'm not only talking about the US, here in Germany our government also delayed a lot of the aid until the last possible moment and kept everything at a low quantity.
>We have practically given them a blank check
Not blank enough apparently. Ukraine is stating that they can't run their own war production at 100% because of lack of money so countries like Denmark have to step in to help them out with that.
>>1372989
It's all just rhetoric my guy

>>1372604
> if ukraine is willing to fight, let them fight
The draft dodging shows Ukrainians don’t want to fight. Zelenskyy commands them to fight for his personal interests

>>1372995
Draft dodging is a problem in every country especially as a war drags on. Actual polls show that the majority of people still supports the war, which makes sense, given they are literally in an existential struggle.
A big reason for the draft dodging is also the lack of equipment and training (something that we could help with, if we actually wanted to). There have been polls among Ukrainian expats where a significant number of people said they would be happy to return and fight if they would get western gear and training. I believe some of them are being trained in Poland right now

>>1372995
Then why doesn't the Russian draft dodging show that they don't want to invade?

>>1372993
>Remember that lend-lease thing that was passed with bipartisan agreement? As far as I know Biden didn't use a cent of it before it expired
???
That's not how that worked.
The lend-lease agreement was that we gave them physical resources in the form of weapons and training, and in return they would pay us back the cost with interest.
We had a similar agreement with Britain during WWII. They finally paid back the full amount in the 2000's IIRC.
This is part of the reason why the US is so invested in Ukraine winning. If Ukraine no longer exists then that debt is erased and the US is left holding the bag.
I don't know how other states are working with Ukraine, but this entire situation is a SNAFU because the US decided to back the losing side.

>>1373027
>If Ukraine no longer exists then that debt is erased and the US is left holding the bag.
Again, most if not all US aid was provided through other mechanisms. As far as I'm aware even though the lend-lease act was signed, Biden never made use of it.
My point is that if Biden actually had wanted to support Ukraine more, he had the means to, but he didn't

>>1372998
But Ukraine isn’t in an existential struggle. Live for everyone will continue the same whether Zelenskyy or Putin is in charge

>>1373048
esl

>>1373048
Ah yes, as we can beautifully see on the occupied territories
I'm genuinely not sure if your post is supposed to be irony and I'm just being an idiot

>>1372993
I'm the person you replied to here >>1372977
Thanks for an honest response, anon. I really appreciate it on this board

>>1373078
nice try samefag

>>1372593
>so, capitulate to invaders

Crimea at least was never historically or ethnically Ukrainian, it was transferred to Ukraine by Khrushchev in the 1950s in a purely internal Soviet administrative move. Even after Ukraine's independence, there was never more than a small percentage of Ukrainians in Crimea.

>>1373127
By that logic it should go to the tartars, who've been there the longest.

>>1373329
Tartars are Russians though