>>28210040
They are sufficient for most commuters unless you drive over 100 km for work

>>28210046
What about price points? Electric/hybrid cars still seem to have expensive upfront costs but supposedly the running costs are cheaper.
Plus I hear battery replacements are a pain in the ass.

>>28210046
That about 63 miles for the math challenged that were failed by the american school system.

>>28210114
It averages out to be a wash. Electric cars don't have to do a ton of maintenance work that you need to do with ICE vehicles (fluid changes, timing belst/chains, etc.) but they do have a massively expensive repair in battery replacements, which being fair, prices have gone down from that 20K meme, and are now more in line with replacing a transmission, which is still expensive, but 36-K for a repair is more manageable than a brand new car money. Depends on the EV., this combined with extra wear and tear on tires and brakes basically puts them on par pricewise at the moment.

The real question you need to ask is if you can charge from home, because that's where the real savings are. If you have your own garage, or at the bare minimum your own driveway where you can install your own charger then the EV wins, you basically fill up your car for pennies on your electric bill. Essentially saving all of your gas money. If you cannot, then you have to rely on superchargers and that's gonna cost way more.

>>28210139
This is good to know, thank you.
>The real question you need to ask is if you can charge from home, because that's where the real savings are.
And that is something I didn't think about, but should have. I'm not going to be here forever, I will move out in time and so that won't be an option at, say, an apartment. Would a plug-in hybrid be a better option in that case?
>If you cannot, then you have to rely on superchargers and that's gonna cost way more.
Those would be the EV charging stations? Yeah I can see how that'd be costly.

>>28210139

>63 miles
>math challenged

The challenged one is you. It's significantly closer to 62 miles.

On a personal basis, >>28210139 is on the money.

On a large scale, it's still a bit early for EV saturation. Right now there is a saturation of early adoption, but saturating the mainstream is not something that should be forced before 2030. The vast swathes of unsold Lightnings is a consequence of short-sighted corporate behavior married to heavy-handed government incentives; Ford overextended fleet production based on an ostensible subsidy by a government headstrong with its EV mandate. The consumers at large don't want it, Ford got paid upfront to build this fleet, then Ford is stuck with the bill of not being able to sell these lot queens (technically it's the dealers, but dealer damage means long-term damage to Ford). This is just the issue of supply-demand on the product package itself.

Widespread EV adoption is a massive strain on the electric grid. For CA the current market saturation has added at least 3% to the daytime grid demand compared to before Tesla opening up shop. If the consumer has their own garage or driveway charger, grids need to be prepared to handle the gradual, but significant, load during nighttime. Customers without their own car spaces, such as big city residents, require fast charging stations. It's those stations that put intense grid demand that will shock the daytime energy availability. If you want EVs to replace long-distance driving, imagine those gas station stops needing to sit on grids capable of daytime GW peak delivery; mere 5 to 25 MW grids won't cut it.

The above and smaller nuances have me convinced that 2040 is a realistic goal for EVs to penetrate past 30% of the automobile market.

My house gets power from a plant that uses diesel generators. They have 6 generators and run 3-4 at a time. 5 MW each. Wartsilla and MAN gents

Cost per KW(h) is not too crazy, especially if you keep your consumption low (taxes increase in brackets the more you consume) but it still makes more financial sense to get a gasser, even more so for a diesel as diesel is cheaper than gas.

>>28210114
They dont have an expensive upfront cost. They're infact just as cheap or cheaper than comparable gas models. You can literally buy used Teslas for <$20K and brand new ones for ~$30K with some incentives/~$39K without any incentives. Thats less than average new car price too.

>>28210350
The only argument for gas cars is if you only buy used <$5K cars. At this point in time, EVs havent been in the market long enough to have used cars go below that. I think used Leafs exists for that, but thats a ~50 mile EV and not a real EV. You need atleast 200 miles for city to city travel and normal usage.

>>28210040
Nah they're a fad. I know a few Tesla people who went back to ICE vehicles swearing to never drive another EV again. The people with EV's still take their ICE vehicles when they go hiking, skiing or snowboarding in the mountains. EV's will only stop being memes as soon as they're fully viable for EVERYBODY, not just people with the ability to home charge who never leave their containment zone.

>>28210040
Depends entirely on how well sorted your life is.
Are you a home owner and can charge at home and afford multiple vehicles? Then yes it's easily worth it.
Are you a rentoid who can barely afford a single vehicle? Then it's probably not worth it, but rentoids deserve the bus anyway

>>28210046
I actually do drive 100km+ for work daily and do it in an EV. Went from spending $1k a month on fuel to $50 a month on electricity, it was a no brainer

>>28210190
fwiw Ford is struggling to move regular F150s as well. "Grid can't handle it" is a meme because most charging is done overnight when there's a surplus in power generation, EVs mught actually help stabilize the grid
Most power demand increase is from AI slop, a single inquiry takes 10 times as much power to compute as a single traditional search

>>28210353
Chevy Bolts might reach that point soon enough

>>28210360
Claims like these are really funny because Tesla has the highest brand loyalty among any brand where they dominate repeat sales

>>28210040
No electricity is too expensive

>>28210467
What are your guys' thoughts on tesla among EVs? I wasn't a fan of how minimalist they look.

>>28210471
Decent EVs, shitty cars. Tesla's biggest advantage was the supercharger network, but now days other manufactuers are getting access to it as well
I guess the new Model 3 is still quite a lot of car for the money. Stuff like removing the indicator stalk is stupid, but there are 3rd party stalks that you can add back yourself in like 20 minutes
If you have a place to charge at home, something like a used Model 3 is simply the most car per dollar you can buy, very little if anything comes close to the value it provides

>>28210471
Minimalists = less things to break = lasts longer. Its simple as that.

>>28210480
Supercharger network is great for access to long distance. However I think they have ton of other great advantages. Software/hardware stack control top notch on them. Their build quality is now on par with rest of the industry, combine that with less parts to break/maintain + electronics hardware + software superiority, it easily becomes the best 2X over.

>>28210467
They may make a hell of a cup of koolaid but not everybody is dumb enough to drink it.

>>28210587
You realize Turo exists right? With zero investment, someone can test drive it

>>28210480
>but there are 3rd party stalks that you can add back yourself in like 20 minutes
How reliable are those? Decent? I'm sure Teslas are solid but I'd hate to get something like that and mod it and find out its shoddy.

>>28210792
Made by the same people who made SEXY buttons, they're pretty well regarded

>>28210592
I know people who did that too. For some the novelty wore off after a few hours and their next purchase was a ICE vehicle. Dumb people test drive them for 5 minutes, buy one then mold their lives around it's inconveniences. Smart people do their research and realize they're a waste of time and money.

>>28210807
You're one of those dumb people?

Memes by RC fags
> saves gas
New model 3 at $42k plus tax,.$46k, over 5 years you spent $10k on insurance, and $4k on tires and $20k depreciation= $34k, say you drive 10,000 miles a year, 50k miles after 5y, and you get 250 mile range on a 90kwh battery, that's 200 times you had to charge to 90kwh at .30 cents/kwh (CA home price) which is $27 each, or $5400, so you're in for $39.7k, or .80 cents a mile.

New Honda Civic econobox $24k+ tax $26k, after 5y and 10k miles/y: $4000 insurance, $2000 on tires, $500 oil changes, 50000 miles at 35mpg and $4 gas = $5700, $10k depreciation, you're in for $22k or .44 cents a mile

And the Honda will keep running for 200k+ miles no problem

And if the RC fag is charging at public stations the price per kwh is $.60, that's $42 to charge from 20% to 80% which gains you 150 miles, assuming $4 gas price, that's equivalent to getting 13mpg.

>>28210825
Fuck no. I drive a ICE vehicle that allows me to call the shots.

EVs are a neat driving toy. Its fun to experience the acceleration and quietness. Its nice having it already charged and ready in your garage. Its fun to charge it with excess solar on the summer. Everything else about them is a meme.

>>28210963
There has never been a Model 3 with a 90kwh battery

>unplug car
>drive to work
>drive home
>plug car back in

they're an ideal solution for everyone except the small percentage who enjoys road trips.

>>28211030
So like 99% of drivers, and even then road trips are totally doable except for the most hardcore of pissjuggers who have to be able to do spur of the moment cannonball runs

>>28211033
with a couple, the one who does more work-related miles should have an EV and the other have a gas powered car that is good for road trips to maximize everything and have a car for vacations

>>28211035
That's what I thought I'd do, but I ended up just taking my EV on road trips anyway. Yeah my truck can do 600 miles on a tank, but I was stopping roughly every 3 hours for a break anyway, turns out my EV can go 3 hours between charges

>>28211036
it's almost like having a physical limitation to how far a car can go and then making the most of that limitation to enjoy the ride is a good thing

>>28210963
The gas to electric price is the one I'm most interested in.

>>28210040
Do you never plan to drive beyond half your range? Sure. They suck for roadtripping unless you enjoy sitting at stations for upwards of 30m, and worse a line

>>28211033
>So like 99% of drivers
Just about. as a mater of fact, you don't even need to own an ICE vehicle for a road trip, you can just rent one for the once a year trip between states to visit yellowstone, or Grandma, or whatever it is that you drive to.

>>28211033
The biggest problem with EVs are for people who want to go off-road. If you ever intend to camp somewhere that isn't a designated campsite with a 30-50 amp service at each campsite, you pretty much can't take an EV there. I expect Volkswagen will fix this with their Scout models, the range extender makes normal outdoors stuff possible.

>>28211500
people who want to go off roading can rent a car for a weekend.

>>28211500
I'd argue an EV would be fine off roading, you generally aren't going very fast or very far, and any significant distances you do drive would be on public roads to get to and from trails
Now EREVs make perfect sense for overlanding and towing where DCFC just can't compete

>>28211520
Or I could just have the one car I use for everything
>>28211521
There are very many public lands and WMAs in this country that are not near charge stations that you cannot make it back from with EVs that only have 300 miles of range, especially if you intend to go when it's cold (for example, during deer season). You don't need a truck to go out there, I've done it in a hatchback and a coupe, cars are generally more capable than people think they are, but there's no feasible way to get an EV out there without putting a bunch of superchargers out in the middle of nowhere to service the 100 odd people that go there once a year and maybe the logging companies, too.

Some of you have clearly never left city limits or big metro suburbs and it's so painfully obvious. Especially out midwest where you basically have to plan any trip along a major interstate or you're absolutely fucked. Even in my state (PA) outside of the three major cities the number of supercharges are pitiful compared to where I can get gas. Hybrids make far more sense over EVs unless you just commute to work and back or live in a city/major metro area.

It's funny when I did my last big road trip out through rural Montana I even saw someone with a Tesla using a portable generator to charge his car lmao. Guy at least was prepared since even gas stations are like 60-100 miles apart along some roads of it (let along EV chargers), but it made me really laugh.

>>28211539
I think even the most abused and shitty EV that isn't a first gen Leaf can easily go 100 miles on a charge in the dead of winter, that's not a very impressive distance
Next time LARP as an Ausfag where they actually have large distances between gas stations across the outback with warning signs telling people to bring extra fuel or they will die

>>28210155
>Would a plug-in hybrid be a better option in that case?
Plug_in packing a bigger, heavier battery that take away trunk space. It is utterly worthless if you don't plug your car at every opportunity to run as pure ev most of the time.

>>28211533
Rivian has it's own network with chargers at these locations. Obviously it doesn't cover literally everything, but by your own admission this only affects a couple hundred people and at that point they literally don't matter to the wider car buying market

>>28211545
>I think even the most abused and shitty EV that isn't a first gen Leaf can easily go 100 miles on a charge in the dead of winter, that's not a very impressive distance
I didn't imply otherwise retard. My point was for gas stations. In northern (eastern) Montana there are basically 2 places where EV chargers exist and they are 350 miles apart if you take the shortest route. If you make the mistake of going along the north roads it's more than 400 miles apart. To claim traveling in EV is as easy as ICE is simply false. you have to well plan your routes in advance, which potentially means limiting yourself to major roadways and not being able to go backcountry.

With ICE there's almost always a gas station within 100 miles in any place in the lower 48, and worse case you can carry extra fuel if needed.

>>28211550
About 3% of the country hunts, probably about the same go innawoods for a while with family for hiking/fishing/whatever, it's a good idea to have at least a line of products for those people. It's not the majority of people, not by a long shot, but I did say that Volkswagen is probably just going to solve the problem with their Scout line (at least, if it is what they claim it will be). $50k, 350 miles, an extra 150 per fuel tank for the gas generator. They won't exist until 2027, so there's plenty of time for VQG to change the specs or price, but if (and they are selling cars with a pretty similar range and price point so this really might be realistic) these numbers are anything resembling reality, I'll probably buy the truck.

>>28211561
>you have to well plan your routes in advance
Only if you plan on traveling across backwater shitholes, major travel routes are all thorougly covered at this point
Of course more shit is always being added, may as well complain that ICEs will never take off because there are no gas stations outside of major cities in the early 1900s

>>28211571
You're a mouth breathing retard and it's no wonder you are form Austria. No one is saying EV will never be the future, but to make a thread and claim EVs can do it all TODAY is SIMPLY FALSE.
> traveling across backwater shitholes
Yeah you mean like the majority of the USA where most of the natural wonders are? I get it you're from a hellish desert shithole of a prison continent with nothing of value. The US actually has interesting nature outside of cities unlike your shithole of a country.

>>28211574
>but to make a thread and claim EVs can do it all TODAY is SIMPLY FALSE
Who claimed this and where? Are you confused?
>muh natural wonders
Let's be real, most Americans are commuting to their wageslave jobs and back

So which EV is the best for general use? Can't be Tesla, right?

>>28212583
Right now? Ioniq 5, N if you want something sportier. I wouldn't buy any currently existing model though, silicon carbon batteries are just starting to show up in phones and will undoubtedly show up in cars once manufacturers switch over and auto companies do some redesigning for them, and they'll have about 20-30% more energy density, so the next refresh is when I would buy if I were going for an EV. 2026/2027 models will probably be when they get really interesting.

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>>28212583
The best EV is the Porsche taycan. Get the 21+ which has the best more reliable battery, they're also at the bottom of their depreciation curve.

>Still a car
Has stalks for turn signals, wipers, physical gear shifter, handles great.
>Door handles
Mechanical door handles on every door on the inside, key override for the driver door. Buttons on doors to unlock passenger doors, don't need to page through a screen.
>Two speed tranny
Higher top speed, faster than most from a roll
>Cross turismo is capable of off-road performance
Comes standard with air suspension, large battery, practical wagon style
>Porsche
Not a me-too NPC mobile or iPAd on wheels or jeet taxi (model 3)
>Tons of options and colors
Unique and looks amazing
>250 range but fastest charging of all EVs
Taycan won the cannonball run against lucid, merc, and trashla because of its quick charging
>EV for the car enthusiast
Many owners are modding theirs. There's a chip available that will unlock a base taycan to the same power as a GTS (468hp > 600hp). You can get CETE to manually control your air suspension through an app. People using PIWIS software to code features such as matrix headlights, and disable stuff like telematics lane keeping assist etc.

>Ioniq 5 Nigger edition
Lolol seriously? It's a riced out clown car.

>>28212745
>they're also at the bottom of their depreciation curve.
>at most 4 years in
lol they're going to go lower

>>28210040
Electric? You want a personal charging station. Usually needs a garage or homeownership.

Hybrid? The buying proposition has been solid since 2010. Matured technology.

>>28212745
>It's a riced out clown car.
How do you figure?

>>28212774
So then how do hybrids do in maintenance and running costs? I've heard they're more complex under the hood than EVs and gas powered, so does that translate to higher maintenace costs due to being a trickier process?

>>28210963
imagine not charging at home overnight for free kek, where I am the rate is negative $0.03/kwh at night. also you will only go through tires more if you do lots of rocket starts from a stop, the torque chews up tires. but aside from that, a model 3 weighs about the same as any other sedan.

>>28213549
>I've heard they're more complex
Not necessarily. Toyota uses a planetary gear CVT which is probably the most robust automatic transmission ever devised. And oil changes etc work just like with a regular car. You'll never mess with the hybrid battery but that's doable too, for example ChrisFix has a video on changing a Prius battery.

>>28210963
>>28213554
Also the realistic price of a new base model 3 is $35k since they receive the $7.5k tax credit. Is the insurance really that high? If so, that's hilarious.

>>28213560
So if I were to be in the market for a hybrid within the next year, would Toyota be what you recommend over something like hyundai?

>>28213567
The tax credit is stupid and will definitely go away this year unless the red party once again decides to do nothing it promised to do on the campaign trail (very real possibility).

>>28213627
Tesla will most likely lower prices if that happens. Elon says he wants the credit to go away, probably because the competition can't survive without it. Meanwhile Tesla profits around $10k per vehicle.

>>28213656
Elon has been busy burning his credibility and political capital lately by calling the people that voted him into power retarded and paying for other people to play video games for him so he can pretend to be hip and cool for the kids (which didn't work because the kids immediately figured out he was lying).

>>28212745
Shitty touchscreen interior and I don't have long term faith in the pouch battery. Also they're not anywhere close to the bottom of their depreciation curve

>>28213571
afaik toyota and the newer honda hybrids are the only ones that use an ecvt(aka planetary gear cvt aka essentially direct drive aka 1 speed manual).
Personally I'm waiting for the honda prelude.

>>28213906
Why a honda prelude over an existing toyota hybrid? What's attractive about it?

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>>28210040
>Are electric/hybrid cars worth it in the year of our Lord 2025

Do you have a set daily commute of under 150 miles? Do you own a real car in case you need to drive cross country? Do you spend a lot of time sitting in traffic and would rather have the car drive for you?

Then an EV may be for you. They have their place. Not having to buy gas is nice; but they have limitations and you need to know that. They also aren't going to last long term the way a gas car will and they're going to depreciate like a bitch so you may want to consider leasing.

>>28213924
it's a coupe

>>28213567
>Is the insurance really that high?
Yes the parts are expensive and take forever to source. If there's even the slightest possibility of damage to the battery pack the whole pack has to be replaced. This means the thing is getting totaled in a minor collision which means high premiums.

>>28210040
It takes significantly longer to charge an electric vehicle than it does to fill a take of gas. Think 30m versus 4m.
They also have a tendency to explode in hot weather.
>I want to be more environmentally conscious, so I've bought a vehicle powered by coal plants
Electric vehicles are meme.

>>28211030
Soon as they have wireless charging pad available on EV, no more plugging in. Old inductive chargers had ~80% efficiency. New ones like the ones Tesla is focusing on with magnetic resonance, has ~95% or so.

>>28214046
>They also have a tendency to explode in hot weather.
Holy shit are you serious?

>>28214345
very rare but can happen facts can end up a bit distorted because people would point to a person having their EV catch on fire because they damaged the battery as being because of the heat or something

>>28211580
>I have no idea how people live in america, but let me tell you, an american how you live
Your death would be celebrated by your family.

I'm of the opinion that NA 4cyl has no more reason to exist without having a hybrid system tied to it in 2025.

Should be either tarbo 4cyl or hybrid 4cyl. V6 hybrid in full size vehicles.

>>28213906
Camry and prius are looking attractive but the prius looks really cramped.

>>28215128
If anything what makes the new Prius a no-go is the retardely huge wheels. it looks like a toy car because of them.

>>28216141
Yeah they're not exactly pretty.

>>28210040
>1997
toyota offers a hybrid
>2025
this anon ask if they are worth it after they occupied the world.

>>28210040
the answer depends on how much you wrench and how much you intend to wrench. anything with an abundance of electronics is going to be really difficult for the average retard to fix. shop fees these days are like $80-140 an hour just for labor alone and that figure will only continue to go up

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>>28210040
They. contain all the reliability problems of gas, hybrid, EVs all in one package. They're a fucking nightmare.