I go through hiking boots quickly, typically I just deal with the smooth ruined sole and slip and slide. I'd like to get a pair of something resolable, which lead me to Jim Green leather boots. Anyone hike in leather boots? I don't live in terrible heat nor do I wade through rivers. Thinking a single lined leather boot is going to serve me well in the long term.
Boot soles still wear out and a resole costs $150-200. If your boots are that cheap you won't want to resole them.
>>2764964I've hiked around in the same pair of leather boots in just about every state from Texas to Maine. If you pick right and take care of them, they'll hold up for a long time. I'd go for plain leather boots, no lining. Use thick, wool socks instead. >>2764968Last time I went to a cobbler in town, it only cost around $80. Doing it myself would've brought that down to $70, ~$60 for the sole and $10 for cement+acetone.
>>2764981What are your thoughts on double lined for longevity/water resistance? My main damage is to my sole and the tip of my toes (catching branch spiking into the boot) so I was going to get an extra leather cap applied. Re: cobbler. Jim Green sells spare soles for really cheap so I'm probably going to just get a few extra sets for the future. I own acetone and cement, should I just be doing this myself (I literally fix antiques for a living, it should be well within my capabilities) just need a bench grinder I guess. >>2764985I hike 10-15 miles once or twice per week, I don't care about spending on my hobby. I want a high quality boot that will form to my foot and not have to re-break in every year, arguably the worst part of new boots.
>>2764981Vibrams cost $130 on their own. You can get a cheap sole for less
>>2764995I can't say it'd be a bad idea to try double lining the tip. It would shift the center of mass of the boot a little further away from your ankle. 1 oz @ 8" is .6 oz-in.If you have the skills to resole, you might as well. It's a useful skill to have. I've become friends with my local cobbler and he does the job better than I would but I'll admit that it does cost a bit more. >>2764999The one I get, the Vibram 360, costs around $60. Randomly picking, the Vibram Logger Full Sole costs $40. Where's $130 coming from?
>>2764964Get a good pair of resoleable lowas meindl or limmers. I've had my limmer standards for ca 35 years and have resoled them twice and they are still going strong.
>>2764968Lol I paid $60 for a resole of redwings at a small cobbler shop. Don't be retarded.
I've got both a Jim green African ranger and razor back, I use them in Florida as a surveyor and honestly they are reasonably perfect
>>2766000This is nice to hear. I went with ar8s, no shank, a shallow lugged sole and a leather toe cap. No inner structure in the toe because I want them flexible. I hike in mostly boreal forests. I also asked them to double stitch whatever they though t would need extra durability because I wear my boots down hard. How have you found they manage water. I usually take rain boots in rain, hut often wet grass is just as bad.
I'm not going to make a new thread over boots. Lord knows we get enough of those. That said, I have always just used hiking shoes. I'm originally from flatlands and swamp hiking, so I just need low shoes. I have some keens right now.Anyway, I moved to mountains. I hiked my first ever mountain yesterday: Medicine Bow Peak. Went clockwise. Long story short, my bitch ass flatland ankles are weak and they hurt like a sonofabitch. Would Salomon Quest 4's or similar help this, or are there better boots out there?
I have retard-wide feet and ordered a pair of semi-custom leather hiking boots (standard last with the toebox widened) from a local bootmaker. Being made to measure they are super comfy but no matter how much I grease them they aren't very waterproof. However I live in NZ where hiking through deep sticky mud is fairly common all year and the boot ends up constantly in contact with water/mud. I also have some Jim Green Barefoot African Rangers, they are incredibly comfy but I haven't done any serious distance in them yet. I don't expect them to be very good in the wet either. I haven't found a single pair of 'modern' gortex/cemented boots that fit my feet properly. Probably going to JimGreenmax from now on and just deal with having wet feet from time to time.
>>2766091pic related
>>2765833Based and limmerpilledDoes anyone know if the ultralights are any good? They're a full pound lighter than the lightweights so I'm wondering what black magic they used to make them.
I wear Timberlands læther boots. It's not a meme, they're comfy af and waterproof still after ~8yrs. They are a little heavy but leather boots are
>>2767136Slightly thinner leather, but mostly it's the single soles. Standards are double-sole chonkey boyz.
>>2766038get better ankles? jokes aside, for class 2 and up its definitely nice to keep your ankles compressed. I bought their x-ultra boots a year ago and they do fine. I havent tried any other manufacturers since up until then I was using lightweight combat boots which also did the job. I will say the dedicated hiking boots were an upgrade from those.
I do my hikings with my trusty blundstones. Hate the feeling of constriction around my ankles that laced shoes give me.
>>2767157what if you step in mud and it's clingy
>>2767158I think before I walk into mud. There's always ways around it unless you're walking through a wet tilled field, and that's not my cup of tea anyways.
>>2767200what if you have to run
>>2767204I ran miles with those boots
>>2767213what if you have to run through mud
>>2767214What if your knickers are all tied up in a twist?
>>2764964I started hiking in a pair of redwing blacksmiths last fall and I love them. Once they're broken in they're super comfortable and versatile. One thing though is that you need to take care of the leather if you want to get the most out of your money. If you don't condition them once in a while and clean the mud off them the leather will dry out and they'll basically last as long as any other crappy pair of boots. If you do take care of them, they can last decades (assuming you resole them).
my leather boots looked a bit dry so i applied the nikwax conditioner, its the only thing i ever applied to them, i had them for around 7 months and applied it 4 times, but they got like this, so now im thinking of buying leather oil to fix them.picrel is how the looked before the nikwax
>>2767482heres the dry part after washing it, as you can see it looks different
>>2767483heres the nikwax conditioner
>>2767486heres how they look after treatment
>>2767487now y intention is to buy a condtioning product to feed the leather, oil seems the best option, but ive seen theres also canned greases but they contain wax which is for waterproofing which is another thing, so i think ill stick with oil, im in europe, anyone got any advice on the type or brand of oil to buy?
>>2767488heres some of the stuff i found on amazon
>>2764968You're on drugs. t. cobbler
>>2764968Not even in leafbucks.
>>2767548Question cobbleranon. Leather missile vs. Lightweight polyester? Opinions?
>>2767626>missleMidsole*****
>>2767488Mink oil is the best if you don't mind darkening the leather a few shades.
>>2767661dont care about that, just want the boots to be healthy and last long
>>2767816Then don't use mink oil, it will weaken the leather considerably.
>>2767833then what oil should I use ?is the oil from here good?>>2767489
>>2767851No idea, I don't speak greek.
>>2767851Leather treatment products generally contain a mixture of oil, fat and wax. The more of the former two, the better it will soften leather, which is something you want if it's old and dry and something you don't want if it's in normal condition.Judging by the look of your boots>>2767487you can probably go with a normal fat/wax mixture. Which of your products that is is hard to tell, except the pure oils probably don't contain wax. It should be soft at room temperature, but not totally fluid.
I've worn these "waxis" (/k/ Rhodesian larp boots) for a few years. Original colour tan. They're a case of false advertising because they are supposed to be goodyear welted even though the midsole is glued to the rubber.I love these boots so I haven't decided whether to get them converted to goodyear once they wear out, keep them stitchdown, or just get a pair of higher end boots.Wouldn't recommend buying though because their price has been hiked to shit and are always sold out. Something like $300 Canadian shipped iirc.
>>2767138>I wear Timberlands
>>2764964I got a pair of the rangers.Comfortable and robust, they also dry quickly. The seams are not water tight at all, same as the leather. I will probably wax the shoes next season.Breaking them in was fast but very painful.Happy with the purchase.
>>2768170anon pls
forester herepretty much anyone worth anything wears white's, nothing else comes close. i have 3 pairs personally:smokejumpers for fire seasonsecond pair of smokejumpers in case somehting happens to the first pairspringheel caulks for my general daily wear>muh weightyeah they are heavy boohoo>muh costit's like $600 you poorfag cunt>muh other special snowflake brand like nicksyou may not be able to tell because you are a retard but a pair of actual white's is incredibly visually distinct in real life and people 1000% do noticewear your glue and chinese toiletpaper boots for sitting in a parkinglot like this retard>>2767138or standing outside your apartment in the favela like this fag>>2767483meanwhile actual men who work in the woods will be wearing the same boots they have since the 1800s
>>2768232nice you're a pretty cool guy, I will notice your visually distinct boots when I see you around so I know to keep distant from your faggot self
>>2768232I looked into whites, nicks, redwings etc., my takeaway based on my use case is that I hate how stiff and narrow they are and I want to feel the ground. I hate the heel too. No doubt they have their place and are wonderfully constructed, but for my needs I went with Jim Greens, no metal shank, no formed toe, low treads, single lined etc. They should be light and breath well while having a wide toe box and age well. Can easily do a resole when needed etc. Stitchdown isn't ideal but for the price you can't really go wrong.
>>2768344>stiffyes, they are made of leather. leather is still before you have broken it in, unless the leather is so thin and shitty that it's like wearing a tennis shoe right out of the box like the african rangers people are memeing at the moment>narrowdude you can order a boot however narrow or wide you want, what kind of complaint is this, it's like saying the boots are too big or too small, order the correct size lmao>no formed toe, no heel, no metal shank, single lined, low treadwhite's hillyard, also have a goodyear welt which will lend to 'feeling' the ground more>breatheableit's a fucking leather boot dude have you ever worn shoes beforealso, the boots in your pic have literally all of the shit you DON'T want you massive retard. fucking steel shank, formed toe, double-layer, etc.
>>2767626Brand-quality almost always matters more than materials and fit is king. If you're not willing to do regular maintenance on the Leather than just assume your better option is to buy new shoes every 3 to 4 years. I also never recommend having just one shoe fits all. At least have a summer and winter setup. I wear leather in winter and synthetic in summer. Most people are better off with two or three pairs of shoes and rotating between them if they hike a lot...simple and obvious but totally ignored by most: if you rotate between two pairs of shoes they'll last twice as long.
>>2768232haha oh man I.remember having this argument with you in like 2020
>>2768563haha yeah i would post about whites constantly on /fa/ during covid, literally brought knowledge of loggers to this god forsaken place by myselfi remember posting my speedlacing guide and people losing their fucking minds because i dont tie them
>>2766010Sorry for the late reply, they are water resistant but not waterproof, I wax them regularly once a week but if you step in a deep enough puddle you will feel the moister in your socks sadly, the razorbacks are good about it since every day I trudge through puddles and wet grass. If you deal with more water I would probably get some booties like you said but otherwise my razorbacks handle it well and they can get pretty beat up with that thick leather. Also they were comfortable in Oregon especially
>>2768614thank you for the detailed reply. I don't wade through puddles, my main enemy as of late has been wet grass while wearing meshy like shitty north face boots I got for really cheap (not worth it if they were free).
>>2768424My guy are really getting mad and arbitrarily defending your favourite American boots on the internet out of some sense of loyalty? I think PNW boots are neat but they are way overbuilt for 90% of real life needs. Anon probably isn't a wildland firefighter. I would probably buy some Whites if I lived in North America because they are dope, however I wouldn't shill them as the be-all end-all of leather footwear.
>>2768649my guy are you redditspacing your responses>overbuiltlmao perhaps you underlive
>>2768639I feel you lol, for I whole I wore gortex adidas hiking shoes but yeah just went through wet grass taller than me and the boots maybe feel cold on the inside but otherwise don't soak my socks ever really, they are dark and double layered so they do heat up in the cruel sun
guys I'm rarted should I get the liquid oil in the bottle or the grease tin to nourish the leather on my boots?
>>2768797Post bootsBut oil is almost always too softening on the leather. Get a tin with a fat/wax mixture.https://www.altberg.co.uk/bootcare/leather-boots-for-water-repellency-leder-gris-treatment-video
>>2768811its these>>2767482>>2767483>>2767487
>>2768812Well I told you already.>>2767964For reference, I have used the following products in my time:https://www.amazon.de/van-Laak-Tierowa-Lederfett/dp/B0016ZXC8KGood stuff, seems to work well, bit expensive.https://www.amazon.de/TAPIR-Lederfett-beanspruchte-Glattleder-natur/dp/B016OXOQUQHas a grainy texture. In my anecdotal experience, it preserves breathability pretty well, might be because it's exclusively natural fats.https://www.amazon.de/Erdal-PROTECT-Original-Lederfett-Dose/dp/B00IJM4BVKVery fatty, anecdotally hurts breathability.>Meindl SportwaxWorks perfectly fine on my boots, can't really speak on the breathability thoughhttps://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/tallipoika-leather-grease-500-ml/59457Too much wax, not ductile enough.As altberg says, too much fat makes the leather soft, the right amount of fat is needed, wax on top to preserve waterproofness. Note that on some products (belts, furniture, jackets etc.) you might not want wax (it has that peculiar look) so small amounts of pure oil/fat are the right choice. (Oil=fat with low melting point, wax is chemically different). Concerning different products - I didn't do conclusive testing, it's just been my personal experience - I slathered two identically constructed boots with tapir and erdal. The tapir boots retained breathability, the erdal boots didn't. I treated meindl boots with the meindl product and they're still perfectly fine, but they are leather+foam lined and that construction provides a decent bit of buffer.Btw. concerning leather linings - I've seen conflicting opinions on this. Some claim you should oil the inside, some suggest hand cream, some nothing at all. I tried the hand cream treatment and it hurt breathability considerably. IMO you should at most apply natural oil, very, very sparingly.
>>2768816thanks for the effortpost, these are goretex lined btwif you apply wax you should apply it after the oil right? what happens after the first time you apply it and you still have sole wax on? does the oil/grease still penetrate?hope the nikwax product i previously applied doesnt interfere
>>2768834I also have new Salomon jungle boots for hot weather, I guess I should treat the leather on these too
>>2768834Hmm. Goretex lined leather boots are a bit of their own thing. With leather lined boots, the liner absorbs and buffers moisture (dries out when you don't wear them). Goretex liners don't absorb moisture, even further they form a barrier before the outer layer. Frankly I don't know why they exist, treated leather is plenty waterproof on its own.Most companies suggest that their goretex lined leather boots only be treated with wax - supposedly because fat eventually permeates the leather, clogs the goretex and makes the whole thing entirely unbreathable (had that happen with a pair of shoes, I think there's some truth to it). No fat means the leather breaks eventually, but the goretex will also leak and the synthetic lining probably abrade so the whole boot has a limited life time anyway. I think nikwax has a pure wax product.>>2768837You could, but jungle boots are not waterproof anyway. Only treat the leather if it gets dry.
>>2768849so usually if you buy leather boots you get leather only?is that even for hiking boots or just work boots?
>>2768851Most of these boots have foam inbetween the leather.Frankly, I don't really know. Maybe the goretex provides that bit of extra water protection someone needs in harsh conditions. But as I said, goretex boots have a limited life in more ways than one.
>>2768858these ones have a liner too as they're made for cold weather, not a thick one but they do
>>2766010How so fit? I’m 10 in some boot brand like danner but regular shoes I am 10.5. I’m thinking about the ar8 which size should I go?
>>2770643I haven't received them yet. Ive been told to order true to size and did measure my foot properly and check their sizing guide.
>>2768424Ive got a pair of whites and a pair of nicks. I like the whites better personally but id say the difference is pretty minor. Fantastic boots to work in but i hate the heel for day to day wear. I dont consider them an everyday boot, theyre more like a piece of equipment imo. Speedlaces>zippers. Id like a good low/zero drop leather shoe for everyday wear. I had a pair of clarks for like 6 years but eventually they wore through and i couldnt repair them.
>>2770741yeah i'm more into management now and the crazy heel makes a ton of noise when I walk around. switched to one of white's more casual boots, the sawyer or something like that, and it's much better. low heel, has a very doc martens-esque profile
>>2770644>I haven't received them yet. Ive been told to order true to size and did measure my foot properly and check their sizing guide. I’m usually 10.5 in sneakers and 10 in boots and ordered the 10. It’s plentyy big could probably go 9.5 even. I got the regular ranger barefoot and think I’m going to return for the 8” version I don’t like the height it dogs in the front of my bony shin too much. For 200$ they look as well put together as the dinners recons I’ve been getting at 400$.
Im looking for:>low cut>leather, preferrably suede>resolable>PU midsole >non GTX or waterproofing liningSo far pic rel is the only thing I've found that fits. Any other recs?
>>2770741if you wanna burn a hole buy vivobarefoot and use their refer a friend for a 20% discount by using another e-mail. For Vivobarefoot, make sure it is side stitched and be careful using obenaufs or other oil based conditioner. use water like nikwax becasue the oil will seperate any glue. Vivobarefoot ranges from good to shit shoes. I like their Michelin outsoles. They wear faster on concrete, but still thicc for a barefoot and should last longer than most. They track mud like a son of a bitch though. Vivo had a feature in March for their Fall/future shoes that should be coming out in the next month you may wait on. I think most their future models will have a stitched sole. Gobi/Ra have always been pretty good too as well as michelin but hoping they release similar with a better outsole in the future. The catch is usually a harder rubber tends to offer less traction.If you wanna go cheap buy whittins off Amazon for $40.Also if you prefer minimalist over barefoot just buy an insole. I use either wool insoles off amazon (size up), nicks arch leather insole, or tread labs replaceable polyurethane insoles. That solves the comfort and then you just need a durable shoe.>>2773157there's a guy named david paige in seattle that resoles a lot of polyurethane hiking boot brands. Give him a ring to see if he will resole a model. Don't think a lot of the Euro brands like Lowa/Meindl/Hanwag etc have resole places in US, but not sure where you are. I know Haix offers resoles on some models. They sell a wildland fire boot that is popular here.
>>2770741also this is a bit into a chunkier outsole but barebarics is good too. side stitched, made in portugal, uses good enough leather, good recipient for replacing insole if you size accordingly. I'd say Vivo/Barebarics/Whittins are the 3 best out right now depending on your wants. Not sure if Barebarics are Be Lenkas from Czech Republic but very similar. I also had a friend recommend Saltic but never tried them myself. They make climbing shoes though so imagine they are good too.
expensive leather boots are a memeI've owned 3 pairs and they have all been shit compared to cheap/mid priced synthetic bootsI'd rather buy new cheap boots that fall apart after 3 years and be comfortable than use shitty expensive not as comfortable boots that last 5
>>2773502Im in EU
>>2773157Limmer hikers fit most of the criteria, they're very expensive though.https://limmerboots.com/products/the-hiker>>2773777What brands/models? A lot of boots are expensive but have dogshit design in order to increase profits (looking at you danner)
>>2773157Jim Green makes a few models pretty close to that
My Jim greens arrived. Let the break in commence. Only regret was not going with some rough out leather around the toe and rear, but they are a pretty serious boot. Fit is perfect btw, use your standard size unless you are going to wear extremely thick socks. >no shank >tire sole >standard black leather >double and triple stitched wherever possible >rough out green interior >leather midsole >etc.
>>2765845That's just a outersole not a midsole.
Would the Frapa M120 be strong enough to be a reliable boot for hiking and road doging, where sometimes I am going off trail through brush and bramble, or would the calf leather upper be too supple and tear too easily? Looking for a boot to replace my 10 year old Italian made full leather upper Vasque; something that will last me another 10 years and not made in China, Taiwan, or Vietnam.If not the M120, other brand suggestions?
>>2778180Jim green razorback
>>2778183This
>>2764964Check out Limmer boots, the custom boots are legitimately the best you can buy.
>>2764964I have recently started testing out hiking in surplus jump boots. I started riding my motorcycle in the GSM since there are lots of fun roads and it's beautiful, but I don't like packing an extra pair of boots. So far so good, I've not been on any super long hikes, but no damage to feet so far. I wear 2 pairs of socks, thin dress socks as a liner under wool hiking socks. The boots I have were $60 on ebay, new-old-stock US army surplus from the mid 90s. Leather is super thick, quadruple stitched all around. Steel shank and toe, so a little heavy but nothing you can't get used to. Soles are pretty decent, not a super deep lug, just a basic zigzag pattern, but made of slip-resistant rubber. Tongue is attached well over the ankle, could probably wade 5in with no water getting in. Thinking about adding hobnails since the sole is designed for them. Might be something to consider if you are looking for a traditional leather boot but are on a tight budget.
>>2778377Even their off-the-shelf boots are pretty spectacular. They're made by Meindl, and they're honestly better than Meindl's own line of boots. Old man Limmer had been a bootmaker at Meindl before emigrating to the US, which is why the Limmer boots so strongly resemble the old-school Meindl's.
>>2768858are u finish ?can you suggest some nice finish or Nordic made boots ?
keens are the best boots imo. I wore steel toed keens everywhere for years, daily, hiking, anything. They're very good. I'll tell you though they ain't good for working concrete that cement dust and slurry rot em up in about 3 months. Otherwise though, keens.
>>2764964I get called a dumb fuck for this frequently but I've always hiked in water resistant 8" work boots.
>>2778995NoAlfa M77 and Lundhags boots are somewhat unique to scandinavia, shell boots without lining, lowers drying times.
>>2779122thanks, much appreciated the insight
>>2779122>>2779303I don't know if anything has changed with lundhag in last 2 years but they switched from rubber to polyurethane 5 years ago or so. It's lighter but more likely to split. Polyurethane has issues with hydrolysis so you'd want to use year round.
Lmfao terrone is back with his creased boots KEK HAHAHAHA this guy.
>>2776156Are those AR8's or you had them custom built?
>Jim green is going to make a russell moccasin clone>True moccasin construction with a leather midsole>Doesn't look like a clown shoeLooks like I'm not buying limmer ultralights kek, hoping the moc build improves the water resistance compared to their other designs
>>2768837Why even put "leather" on a shoe like this
>>2768118Those look like theyre 4-5oz leather based on that ancle creasing how the fuck are they $300. They look as cheap as my clarks malis
>>2780385nta but they're a historical reproduction of an apartheid-era combat boot, made at the same factory in South Africa as the originals. The idea was that they were supposed to be a compromise between the thick leather combat boots that were too hot and heavy and the canvas tennis shoes that got torn up too quickly in the savannah. You could also order them with the an "anti-tracking" sole, which was pre sanded down to age your tracks, something the South African commandos did. They're supposed to be made of thinner leather, don't own any but I think they were about $150 when they first offered them. I suspect the reason they're so expensive is because milsurp autists are either cheapasses who will buy lowest bidder Pakishit or spend way too much on muh reel deel.Just looking at the construction, I actually wonder if the OEM is actually Crouch Footwear ie Jim Green
>>2764964Does anybody like Wolverine's?
>>2780436i have a pair of those with the flat sole as my daily winter boots100% wool felt insolevery satisfied but i wouldnt hike with them i guess
>>2780423That would make sense as to why they have a similar profile to malis desert boots in the first place. But I resoled mine with vibrams christys and some leather midsoles so they don't look anything like they originally did with the shitty crepe sole and fiberboard. And I stiffened them with a bunch of cold applied beeswax with a burnishing stick.
>>2764964I hike in leather boots outside of summer seasons. Havent tried Jim Greens, but intend to do some in tge future due to the wide toebox. Mainly been using Altbergs.
>>2776156>no shankWhats your reasoning around this? Im a bit conflicted on it
>>2780752Shanks are only needed for high heels.
>>2780771So like in pic related? I looked at the other sole >>2776156 that comes with AR8's and it seems like weak threads that would quickly wear down flat, but I really dont have any experience with them. Do they actually function well outside of African enviorment, like in foresty taiga enviorment?
>>2780775Stitchdown is usually more durable and stiffer than welted. The thread is saddle stitched after gluing to the midsole and if you have ever cut and resoled you would see that even if you rip the thread between each punch it does not pull off easily. You have to cut almost every single stitch to get them to pull off. The most you'll rip out by yanking after you already pull the toebox off the midsole is maybe 4 punches by yanking as hard as you can.
>>2780928
>>2780930
>>2780931
Leather boots are great!
>>2778180Maybe one of the big German brands? Hanwag, Meindl, Lowa. I know the first two still make a range of double stitched boots while all have a bunch of models that are resoleble. The quality of the leather is very grood in all of them and you have a choice between leather lining or GTX lining for a bunch of models. Dont know which of the brands has a better presence outside of the EU though.
>>2782301Lowa biggest then Meindl. Wouldn't really recommend Hanwang as its owned by company that owns Fjallraven.If you want welted just get Limmer's. They are made by Meindl. Personally its a little too expensive for my taste. If I went welted for hiking and wanted to save weight i'd probably get a jim green vellie, add an insole. Even a custom one would run less than $200 and you can change the sole and midsole from fiberboard to leather for a boot only about 2 pounds.With all that in mind id probably still go for a direct attach boot/polyurethane that those companies usually sell.
>>2764964I gave up hiking in boots. Coming from the military, I was conditioned to think boots were essential for hiking/backpacking. Years ago, I noticed the growing trend of people in trail runners and all of them saying how much better they are than boots. I eventually tried a Salomon gortex lightweight hiking shoe for a Rocky Mtn backpacking trip and I will never go back to boots. If I ever did wear another boot, it would be one that is very light weight, not leather.
>>2782369This. You can go far in shoes or 4 to 5 inch lightweight boots and gaiters. I've gotten into the habit of also using barefoot shoes and just adding a proper insole so they technically aren't zero drop but a lot of their outsoles are just as thick as hiking boots if you negate the immense amount of foam they use in the midsole. Look at a pair of chonker danners and they just use a vibram kletter outsole which 1) is a zero drop outsole. 2) The vibram kletter outsole is only 8 mm or .3 inches thick.So why pay $500 for a Limmer, $300 for a Lowa/Meindl/Zamberlan, or even $100-$200 for a Jim Green when you can buy Whitins off Amagoys for $40 and add an insole. Then you can buy Outdoor Research Gaiters who will replace them for life in the US.I do prefer leather over cloth but when I discovered that foam boots weighed a fuck ton more with all that injected polyurethane/EVA also making for a clunky boot, and that a lot of boot outsoles are so fat in the heel that they cut out holes in them to lower weight I realized a lot of it was unnecessary bullshit unless you're climbing a mountain or something.
>>2782387This is what I mean. This is Vibrams most famous outsole, the Montagna. All that rubber does nothing. It makes heel strikes worse causing more long term damage, adds weight, and provides no extra durability.If you spend any time in wildland fire or the military you'd know that foot/leg/knee/back injuries are proliferous. I'm not against foam either, but just think it can accomplish plenty of shock absorption with an insole then a midsole. Plus if you are adding less heel height to your boot/shoe you are decreasing the amount of shock each heel strike is going to give.There's always going to be interne troubadours telling you how you need those end of the world 6 pound wildland fire boot. And when they wear down within a few years of the apocalypse i'm gonna be prepared to go full bilbo baggins.
>>2768232Why so insecure in your masculinity my guy?
Can anyone recc a relatively light, low- or mid-rise boot? I like to cycle into the woods in the winter when it can be ~10 degrees and the only thing that keeps my feet hovering above frostbitten seems to be my heavily greased-up boots. However my regulars are high steel toes and I'm really thinking about getting something lighter for the purpose.
>>2782404fatherless statement
>>2779353Yes, adding the leather toe cap was important to me because I often hit twigs and sticks head on into my toes.>>2780752Flexibility. Shank is important for shovelling and climbing ladders, these are for autumn and spring hiking.>>2780775They are ar8s with tyre wedge sole. Pretty comfy, I do regret not going barefoot desu but its a fairly low heel as it is. >overallIve finally been able to spend the whole day in them without blisters, they get more and more comfortable every time. I can't comment on waterproofness, I used the sealer jimgreen sells and they don't wet my feet in wet grass or rain. They are very heavy, don't underestimate that. Extremely grippy tyre wedge, steep inclines in dry dirt feels very secure. Nt4vg2
>>2768232Every boot on their website looks like they're made for gay shopkeepers or bdsm
>>2782630>all too familiaryou would know
Red Wings or bust.
>>2782630why would you trust anyone else? clearly the gay shopkeepers and kinksters are going to shell out for quality shit
>>2764964I've been hiking in the LL Bean Cresta boots for a few years now and I really like them so far. They're pretty scuffed up but otherwise showing no signs of needing repair/replacement
>>2764964i work outdoors in northern albertai wear a heavy leather boots for most of the year, even in wet conditionssynthetic just doesnt handle abrasions or burns as wellit takes a lot of cleaning and oiling to keep my boots from falling apart, and keep them water resistantworking all day in heavy clay mud will destroy a good pair of boots real quick, if theyre not cleaned or oiledi go through an 8 ounce bottle of mink oil every yearsounds like a lot but my boots last at least twice as long as my coworkers, and they break in betterbut if im just going for a nice walk id rather have a real light syntheticsoles arent an issue because i dont drag my feet and i dont kick shit
>>2782411if you want a solid toe composite is a lot warmer than steelthermal socks a larger than summer socks and can eliminate the airspace at the end of your toe, making your feet colderi buy my winter boots a half size bigger to make roomwool socks suck for really cold weather>wool insulates when its wetnot when its touching your skinfor really cold weather i always have a synthetic base layer and a natural second layeracrylic socks suck in most of the time, but theyre great in minus 40c, and cheaper and more durablethe most important thing is to keep your feet bone dryi pull out my insoles and dry my boots upside down over the register every night in the winterif i dont the next day is miserablechange my socks and insoles at lunch if its really cold
>boot fits perfect with thick wool socks for long days and give space for downhill walking>conversely fits too big with thin summer socks>half size smaller boot fits perfect with summer socks but too tight with wool socks and can't be worn for long daysSo is the solution to have one summer boot and one winter/long day boot?
>>2782947>thin summer socksNot a thing for any serious walking, especially when carrying weight.
>>2766091Do you do long hikes ? Typically boots that get wet qui quicker also dry a lot quicker. If you have tried to just change your socks after drying your feet during hikes, I'd be interested in knowing your experience with that.
>>2768566Speedlacing guide ? Do tell me more
I've worked, hiked and hunted with these Alico's for 8 years. Durable and comfy.
>>2783717Watch out drying them near a heat source. Are you Venetian?
>>2782727Red wings are a good starter boot
Polyurethane vs EVA. What are the benefits and trade offs for either? Is one better for hot/humid tropical climate?
>>2784632This about covers it. Explains why some work better in other applications. Don't forget that often a proper insole can take care of a significant amount of comfort if you dont use a foam midsole or boot.>evaInsulative. Outside cold doesn't radiate inside through material. Great for fishing or cold.Lighter. Crocs material.After about 500 miles foam starts to compress.Leaving out in sun causes material to shrink.>polyurethaneHeavierFoam cushions for longer periods. More in hiking boots.Heavier.Not as insulative.Hydrolysis. Breakdown of material due to infrequent use causing moisture buildup.
>>2784635Thanks! I guess the tropics would take their toll on either over time anyway. So, choice probably depends on the shoes use/application more than the climate.
>>2784678If you use polyurethane every day you shouldn't have an issue. Farmers in Australia use redback every day and get years and years.It's the people that wait for the rainy day footwear that end up taking a shit saying they used it once and it fell apart.People use crocs all the time in the summer too. Just don't let it cook on your porch.
>>2764964Leather boots suck. They are not water proof and not comfortable. A good pair of boots is 600 dollars they take forever to wear in and then you can send them back for 200 dollars a time to get resoled. They just aren't worth the money and they fuck up your feet and back.
>>2764981>Doing it myselfYeah Ive done this before and you can't actually do it right without a press. Hammering the sole on is not correct and you can't restitch the soles at home. You basically need the shittiest type of boot to event try doing this at home.
>>2784795Are you the same guy who gets a mad itch from wool? You spew just as much bullshit.
>>2784797Ive never been on out before in my life i just saw a leather boot thread on the homepage. I have purchases super expensive leather boots before and simply moved past them. I love wool and have a ton of wool base layers and hats. Wool is the best.
>>2784795I should have also specified that I think nicks/whites type boots are not worth it I am not talking about scarpa/la sportiva type boots.
>>2784798Then be educated:-Leather boots with the right treatment of grease are waterproof for a decent amount of time-Leather boots that fit are very comfortable, especially when worn in. Fit doesn't depend on the amount of money you pay btw.-Diminishing returns for leather boots happen in the 250-300 bucks range, not 600. At least over here in europe.-Leather boots are not harmful to either the foot or back if they are cushioned. Cushioned sole leather boots exist.-Most importantly, leather boots can last a long time (and resoling doesn't cost 200 bucks either, unless you get it from a company that offers $600 boots to begin with). "Waterproof" goretex boots delaminate, the membrane leaks, the synthetic lining abrades etc. etc.
>>2764964I hike in military style new rocks. They're expensive but they're really nice.
>>2784795>way too generalized statement to take seriously.Plenty of people here don't recommend White's and Nick's. Even industries that historically used those $600 logger boots now have switched over to Lowa's Haix Meindl Danner and other brands that are using polyurethane. The logger boots often weigh 5 to 6 pounds and have 0 sock absorption leading to many injuries later in life.>>2784799>now that you mention it.completely agree. the logger boots are recommended by obese larpers. the only way i'd recommend them is if you entered a doomsday scenario where it was a 10 year depression or the end of the world. If the world ended though you'd have a world of troubles when the boots broke down and at that point you are better adapting like a native american and making moccasins, breaking your feet in for that instead of pampering them with boots that will prevent your foot muscles from developing and wear the bones down.>>2784801like how the us only switched in mass from revolvers to pistols in the 1990s, the us is slowly switching over to foam footwear like europe did eons ago. our only polyurethane boot makers i can think of are belleville, danner, and thorogood.
>>2784795>Leather boots suck. Wrong.>They are not water proofThey can be made water resistant enough for most needs (e.g. rain, puddles). If you need full water proof you wear a rain boot.>and not comfortable.Depends on the boot, but generally wrong. A well broken in leather boot will fit like a glove.>A good pair of boots is 600 dollarsYou can buy a pair of high quality domestic made Redwings for less than half that.> and then you can send them back for 200 dollars a time to get resoledWrong. A well done resole shouldn't be more than $150, which sure beats buying a new pair of boots.>and they fuck up your feet and back.Maybe if you're a fatass with poorly conditioned feet and back muscles.
I know this isn't a full leather boot, but is this ok for entry level /out/ing?
>>2785203Don't even know what it is. Looks like fashion slop.And what's your definition of entry level outing because crocs would work for car camping so just about anything passes.
>>2785203I suggest you buy your outdoor boots from companies that make outdoor boots, not companies that make fashion boots.Apart from that: textile panels have to be lined with goretex, else they are not waterproof. Non-waterproof boots have their place in dry and hot climate. Waterproof boots if there's a decent chance they'll get wet. Textile panels can get dirty though and are hard to clean, I personally prefer full leather boots.
>>2785203Depends what you mean with entry level, something like that is absolutely fine for a stroll on a flat trail, as most walking footwear would be. A pair of running shoes would be cheaper and equally good in that case.
>>2784801>>2784635is the cushioning important due to the weight of the boot? I wear the opposite because I can feel looseness and pick my footing much more easily, but I don't want to end up with blown joints down the road.
>>2785413Cushioning is advantageous if you're carrying a weight and if you wear normal footwear, which will lead you to always walk with an heel strike.
>>2785203I know this is a leather boots thread but the answer is yes these are fine.since when are people so stuck up here.you can hike 25km a day in sketchers.it's just a good bit nicer to have good boots.
>>2785705>reddit spacing>since when
>>2766010what's the name of this particular type of boot and can I hike/fish/style these?
>>2766010That blown rubber soles going to wear down in less than a year if you wear it hard. Topkek. So many jim green fags who don't realize this equating welt = durability.>>2786254>styleWe have at least established you're a faggot. Considering the short lifespan of the outsole those would be considered larp boots for people wanting to burn a hole in their wallets.
>>2786359>replaces outsole for $60 with anything you want
I use Haix. They're made in the EU and not too expensive.
>>2786359just give me the name
>>2786450Fishermen use waders or rubber boots. I go with eva boots because they're light and stay warm and they're not stylish.Lemigo, torva, nordman have liners to soak up sweat. Only a few real rubber boots anymore. And they're like 5 pounds. Le chemeux (some French brand). Aigle and gum leaf are the other two I know.Varusreleka also has a Nokian boot of heavy plastic rubber that the Finnish army uses but gonna also be like 5 pounds.For hunting I'd use something else for steep terrain. I use m77 cause I'm a cheap bustard. You need to use them regularly though to prevent hydrolysis of the outsole.Most people go with European brands. Meindl, Iowa, zamberlan, haix, etc...If you are a welt fag go with limmer (meindl made) or Jim green.For barefoot boots go with vivobarefoot with Michelin outsole. The tracker esc I think. Tracks a lot of mud though.
>>2786509thanks, I just want to buy one pair of leather boots that I can use for everything, like hiking, buying groceries, and fishing.I already own waders that I use for rivers and surf fishing, but I mostly do shore/rock fishing in the city so a nice pair of ruuged boots can do that job and for daily use as well in the cold months.
>>2786526>>2786509Ok it seems like Jim green has the boots I'm talking about, but sadly they don't have stores in my countryWhat are some alternatives?
>>2786526>>2786537for hiking shoes, i'd say in general a person's gonna use merrel moab if they are cheap or lowa zephyr/renegade if they are willing to spend a bit more.I use m77's because I like shell boots where I can use a thicker insole or two socks if it's colder and because the shell (a single layer of leather without a built in liner) dries faster then one that does.I would recommend what I do even for people that use the earlier boots I mentioned because if you buy a boot with thinsulate you won't use them in summer and thus hydrolysis. Most modern hiking boots use eva foam (croc material) or polyurethane foam. Running shoes use former more often and hiking boots use latter.Eva is a softer/lighter foam that tends to start compressing after about 500 miles. It has a ton of air bubbles in it so can insulate very well. On the cons, leaving it out in the sun or by a fire to let it bake will shrink the material and the compression.Polyurethane is a hardier foam that is a bit heavier but less likely to compress with time. Polyurethane is subject to hydrolyis. This is the premature breakdown of the foam due to disuse. Tons of people buy polyurethane boots for a rainy day and find the foam breaks apart because it was stowed away in their closet for years before using it, whereas i've seen farmers using polyurethane for a decade before it was time for a new pair because they used it daily.Tons of people see this then want to go welted like Jim Greens, but I have spent enough time in wildland firefighting to tell you the 'legendary' pacific northwest boots fuck your body up and firefighters and loggers are switching over to polyurethane boots because they are lighter and provide cushioning to your heel when it strikes the ground with each step. Suffice to say i'd still use a welted boot if it had a low heel, was light, and had room for a good foam (polyurethane) insole in it. (cont)
>>2786556Something like Jim Green's Razorback is 3.5 pounds and you can just throw the insole away and replace it with a superfeet, tread labs, this:https://www.varusteleka.com/en/product/jalas-fx2-climate-insoles/80990yadda yadda. I'm still experimenting with insoles. The worst part of cold for footwear (besides cutting off your circulation with too small a boot and too many layers of sock is radiation, or the transfer of cold from the rubber to your foot. With more minimalist boots I tend to avoid foam insoles and go with wool like picrel (felt store wool insole) because I typically don't need cushioning at that point.I've also found cork to be really good but most cork insoles are not well made. The only good one i've found is Meindl's cork insoles. You need a good boot that allows a lot of range in lacing to support that though.Note though for some insoles like the last two you may need to go up a size or 2. The m77's I use are high volume so are plenty flexible for the wool insoles. The meindl cork insoles I used in a pair of Sievi soft solid's that also allowed for a good amount of volume but did not have the best lacing.>other welted shoesI wouldn't hike in welted boots but I will throw a few suggestions out there.Danner (USA. don't recommend. Too clunky and low quality. Bought out by fashion brand)Hanwag (Europe. don't recommend, bought out by same company that bought out fjallraven.)Austrian Feldschuh Leicht (Europe. Combat boot.)Meindl Perfekt (Europe. Too heavy)Going on what I said earlier, if I hiked in a welted boot i'd go with Limmer Ultra Lights (too narrow for me and I don't like full length shanks even though I understand their purpose) or buy Jim Green's Chukka's. They were last only $100 on sale, could throw in an insole if you size right, weigh less than 3 pounds (probably 2.5), durable, good leather (go with suede side for hot dry weather albeit will wear faster. go with smooth side for wetter weather).(cont)
>>2786562but at the end of the day i'd still go with a polyurethane or eva shoe/boot for hiking if not barefoot.>barefoot shoesI mentioned here >>2782387if you look at the outsole without the fat amount of foam in there, it's not a very thick outsole of shoe. You can get barefoot shoes with as thick of an outsole. That's the Vibram Kletter on a Danner boot. So you get this like 4+ pound monster boot with a think outsole you can get on a barefoot shoe/boot that weighs between 1-2 pounds. Furthermore you can pair a barefoot shoe with a gaiter and get similar benefits to the boot.I'm still testing barefoot shoes so it's hard to gauge durability. I don't really give a shit about zero drop either as I sometimes add insoles with a couple mm lift, but I just don't like heavy/clunky boots.As I stated before, I think the vivobarefoot esc shoes/boots are the two best barefoot shoes right now other then they track crud like a bitch.I'd say sole runner (good sole but upper trash) and whitin are runners up. The latter for cheap asses as they are only $40 on amazon.>evaOther then waders/fishing type boots, which I use Lemigo's for for rain, I tend to just use barefoot for running shoes so don't know enough about good eva shoes.>polyurethaneas stated earlier, lowa renegade/zephyr are some of the most used/recommended. Most the European companies are really good. America is just behind. We have a few foam boots like Belleville and Danner but they are still behind European companies.Even Australia has Redback/Mongrel which do a pretty solid job.I prefer the more Scandinavian companies, which is why I like Sievi and the Norwegian M77 because they understand a wide foot. The German's typically do a wide foot well and Italians tend to be narrower foot.If I didn't go with a Scandinavian, i'd probably go for Zamberlan because they use designs that are more one piece leather which allows for less water entering through the stitching.(cont)
>>2786565>pac bootsThis is the one other genre i'd mention. Think the LL Bean Boot. I tend to not like these boots because they weigh about 5 pounds. They use a polyurethane or rubber (usually plastic rubber) lower and leather upper to have kind of a rubber boot you can lace up.LL Bean Boots are lighter, cheaper, and fairly cheap to resole but aren't very warm, slick, and will wear down faster.Other's in US are Schnee's and Hoffman. I'd go with latter if I had to choose. These use a liner for warmth you can remove which is a plus to me, and you can resole them. It's still 5 pounds which is too much for me.For Europe, they have lundhags.>ultra coldif you are in alaska type conditions i'd go with a few optionsMickey Mouse boots. US Surplus. Heavy AF and slick but warm. Also fairly cheap. Look up Bunny Boots for warmer.Stegers Mukluk. Been really close to getting a few times as they are light, use a liner, and the kamuk extreme uses a rubberized over the leather. These are better for dry cold though as wet will permeate the leather. Also is a real rubber sole so urine and oil will break down the rubber.EVA boots with a liner. What I hear most from russia. nordman, torvi, lemigo.A lot of people also use neoprene boots with a plastic rubber lower. Think Muck's. I find these end up cracking or the neoprene tears easy on barb wire. Albeit they are good when they work.hope that helps.
>>2786556>>2786562>>2786565>>2786566Thanks a lot anonI'll think i'll look for leather combat boots, they seem to be within my budget
>>2786562>Danner (Bought out by fashion brand)danner is owned by the same japan parent company that owns white's
>>2786576doesn't make it still a fashion company. not trusting a japanese fashion brand to make boots period. i've been to white's and danner's factory. i wouldn't recommend either anymore. danner's specifically cut corners and has heavy boots with very thin leather.and even though i don't like welted boots, there's 3 more companies in the same place as Whites, in fact, they all used to work at White's: JK Boots, Franks, and Nick's. I think I saw another once in Idaho but forgot the name.>>2786571The Austrian boots are solid. Kommando Store had them make some in wider foot lasts but not sure if they have a current run. Store's run by /k/ fags. My one issue with it is not a lot of volume for an insole.The Norwegian m77 is also a combat boot. It is a high volume so insole good for filling up the space. there's a few different manufacturers for them. everyone says alfa who was the og maker of them but i found the leather very poor on them. they are also no longer made in norway but in romania.i prefer varustelekas version (i think foxberg) because its a wider fit but samelin also fine. have yet had the time to compare the two.
>>2782419He's doing quite well actually, he's trained 4 wild owls that live near him to come to his calls.... thats his new hobby, he calls me to talk about it all the time.
>>2782355>Hanwang as its owned by company that owns FjallravenTrue. But I would consider this a non-factor. Unless you really hate the parent company or something. At least Hanwag makes boots almost exclusively in Europe and the high end, hand made stuff in Germany. Something which cannot be said for a majority of Meindl and Lowa boots anymore, who manufacture, especially the lower-end models, predominantly in SEA. So from a quality stand point I would say all the German brands are top, at least when you single out their proper, re-soleable boots (not the EVA midsole, low cut, approach shoe/fast hiking crap).
>>2787675>predominantly in SEAOk. Maybe not predominantly. Like I said though, it depends on the specific model.
What causes this discolouration of the leather? From white/cream to brown. Does is say anything about the state/condition of it or is it natural?
>>2787821Forgot pic.
>>2768232What exactly do you do forester? Are you a smokejumper by chance?
>>2767233I was thinking about buying Redwing blacksmiths as my first pair of leather boots but I had casual wear in mind. Would redwings provide just as much support (including ankle support?) as traditional hiking boots would when hiking with a heavy backpack on uneven terrain?
>>2787821>>2787823Humidity, heat, friction. Perfectly normal.
>>2786562>Meindl PerfektHave you tried this shoe on btw? Im interested in some Meindl welted boots (specifically the Ortler) and am wondering about fit. The company is known to make wide, high volume boots. But I am not sure if this also translates to the welted shoes, which are handmade. No store nearby offers Meindl welted shoes anymore.>I wouldn't hike in welted bootsWhy? Too heavy? In my mind its nice to know you can always repair the boot and that it wont fail because of some glue coming off in the long term. I think I want that peace of mind.
>>2786565>German's typically do a wide foot well and Italians tend to be narrower foot.I can attest to this. I made the mistake of going for the approach shoe meme. Italian climbing brands scarpa and la sportiva. Narrow as fuck. Wanted to throw them away, luckily sold them off.>t. German
>>2787827You responded to a 3 month old post. I'm in wildland fire and the people that use to own whites switched over to polyurethane. One uses lowa tibets>>2787855When I did my first year in wildland there was a guy in usfs ranger station whose red wing heritage boots broke in a week. Like welt completely coming undone broke. I tried them and they were not comfortable in the slightest.As I said earlier I'd go jim green razorback and get an insole (or a similar boot with volume for your own insole), or if you really want support and a welt go with a pnw boot maker (whites nicks frank jks).If you're only going to wear for fashion like how a girl wears heels it doesn't matter.
>>2787883>>2787883Haven't tried perfect. Have used limmers off the rack which meindl makes. It's a great boot if you don't mind the weight. They may have a model in Germany they could sell you if you're in Europe. US here. I'd go wide though.
>>2787855I wear my blacksmiths hiking on all manner of terrain. They're great. They take a while to break in, but once they do they fit like a glove. As far as ankle support goes, I don't know, I've never had a problem with that. >>2787990>When I did my first year in wildland there was a guy in usfs ranger station whose red wing heritage boots broke in a week. Like welt completely coming undone broke.Sounds like bullshit. A welt doesn't just come "undone" after a week of use.
>>2787991Cant find a single EU store than has this brand, here. Seems they only sell in US. Does Meindl make them in Germany?
>>2787990Why would a fire team pick a material that will melt and fuse to their skin? Are theh mentally retarded or is there some nonbrittle thermoset in footwear I am unaware of?
>>2788060The thread on leather boots is poly and melts and so does the sole glue. We need to go back.
>>2787991are these the lightweights? how much do they weight?
Not exactly a full leather boot question. I can get really good deals on boots. I currently own some construction worker Red Wings that are 6 in tall. I like how far they come over my ankle, since it prevents gravel from getting in. Keen, one of the brands I'm interested in, has 6 in boots that are not declared hiking boots, and all of their hiking boots dont come up as high. What's the deal? The store I work at doesn't have the non-hiking Keens. Should I go out of my way to try the 6 in boots or stick with a Targhee?
>>2788075Ultra lights and site says 2.5 pounds but closer to 3 in my experience. Leather just darkens with conditioner
>>2787993Saw it with my own eyes as we were all in training together not even doing heavy hiking. Red wing heritage is fashion boots.>>2787994Live in us. Call meindl and see. I've always found it hard to find meindls welted models in US besides limmer.>>2788060Melt to skin. Are you implying people are licking boot outsoles on fires?You welt faggots can stick to your fantasy but people here switch from whites to lowest, haix, red wing non heritage, etc and never the other way around. The pnw boots do irreparable damage to your body but I suppose it doesn't matter if you're a fat weekend warrior.This was the second busiest fire season in my decade of it and no one's outsole melted. In fact none have ever melted. I'm pretty sure we had new seasonal this year not even using nfpa boots this year and none had an issue.
>>2788220>Red wing heritage is fashion boots.Completely baseless claim. I've abused the crap out of mine for over a year and they still look good as new with a bit of oiling and buffing. You're either lying or your friend got a defective pair.
>>2788222>1 yeargo take your red wing heritage to your ranger/guard station for 2025 wildland fire season and try not to get laughed out of the room
>>2785706Trump los-oh wait
>>2788259Yeah no shit, they're not fireman boots. Who claimed they were? That's not due to poor quality though. It's due to the inherent design with the lower ankles and lack of fire resistant outsoles. The sorts of boots you would wear for fighting wildfires are totally unsuitable for casual wear/hiking though, unless you're a masochist.
>>2788220>The pnw boots do irreparable damage to your bodytelling lies again anon, shame on you.
