I feel alone in my view here. My view is that punishment is wrong no matter what.I even feel genuinely sad when I witness it or see people celebrate it, especially against people who are seen as bad by society, especially criminals.I thought of an alternative justice where psychological manipulation is used instead of punishment. So, you'd trick the subject into not doing bad basically.You might say "well, that violates basic human rights of consent." Well, so does punishment. Both approaches are non-consensual, but one comes with zero trauma and zero pain.I doubt ANY of you get me, but I have nothing to lose by posting this so... Worth a shot, I guess.
>>475692386I get you. Plenty of people may call you a faggot, but I get you.It would be better to fix people. Punishment and revenge don't fix things. Fixing things fixes things.
I'm. Going to kill myself this weekend.
>>475692961Don't do that. If you wanna die, make the world do it to you. Go walk into the desert or something. Fight a hobo. Something interesting.
>>475692961Why?
>>475693041Yeah, but that would be painful. Ideally, you want to go painlessly.
>>475692838Thank you so much! That's exactly what I'm talking about. You even mentioned revenge. You're wild, my guy! <3
>>475693109If you want to go painlessly you don't want to die, you just hate your current life. Go do something else.
>>475693275
>>475693288Not entirely wrong there. You might just need a new goal to keep you going. But I don't know if that's applicable to everyone.
>>475692386How about the death penalty?
>>475693370
>>475693472What about it? It's still punishment, isn't it?
>>475692386This is worse, gayer and more prone to abuse than punishment. And it's also stupid because most real criminals can't be "convinced" to stop doing it.It's how a sociopath (the human trash behind almost every problem nowadays) views everything and pretends to care about problems.
>>475694074That's the thing: you mustn't "convince" them. They should not know that they're being tricked!Humans are behavioral animals. Given enough manipulation on a large scale (the government), they WILL change. Classic conditioning!
>>475694290This is an excuse for sociopaths to play stupid mind games, they will use excuses to play those on as mnay people as possible, over bullshit crimes, ...There is no easy way out of crime and the solution involves a lot of people "being gone" (either naturally or via violence).
>>475692386I think OP actually might be a woman.
>>475694290You suck so much you are hardcoded to be obnxoxious insane homosexual criminals (and this is the reason you have to be killed or die without leaving subhuman children):Why are Narcissists, Sociopaths, and Psychopaths considered ‘Untreatable’?https://flyingmonkeysdenied.com/2016/09/23/why-are-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-considered-untreatable/
>>475692961It's cool if I cast your vote for Kamala this November for you, right?
>>475692386if you wanna be pacifist, you better become a gnostic and reject everything this world has to offer.
>>475692386No. I have tried this for many years and instead people will keep taking advantage of your good faith.
>>475695852Don't be ridiculous.
>>475696005I am agnostic, but how is rejecting the joys in the world a way to become a pacifist?
>>475696134you can't be a true pacifist otherwise, unless you kill all your desires
>>475696042Well, the offenders can only take advantage of your good faith if they know your plan.
>>475696222I still don't get it. Can you elaborate on why exactly?
>>475692386>My view is that punishment is wrong no matter what.As I've aged, I too have arrived at this view. I see repeatedly that the artificial pains inflicted to 'correct' often leave the recipient resentful and covertly defiant. It destroys relationships because the vast majority of the time people act in what they believe to be in good faith (and also FreeWill™ is an illusion). Punishment is like circumcision: it is an intergenerational abuse-trauma cycle which leaves everybody mentally sicker.
>>475692386I'm going to kill your family. You will watch and do nothing. Get ready. I'm on my way to your house right now.
>>475692961You'll have to put it off until you improve your punctuation. That's an order.
>>475696937Determinism is my cup o' tea. I agree, it's a never-ending cycle of power abuse.Also, funny enough, I've been circumcised when I was a kid. :(
>>475692386so you basically want to do "a clockwork orange"?
>>475692386>I thought of an alternative justice where psychological manipulation is used instead of punishment. So, you'd trick the subject into not doing bad basically.I am not against segregation, but if you're going to put people into complexes and restrict movement and economy, you have an obligation to provide at least Motel 6 accommodations and not fee them to death with $5 noodle bricks and $10 5 minute video calls. Every cell should have a Playstation and they should be all on the prison LAN (or WAN for fostering artificial inter-prison rivalries).Prison should not be to punish but to reparent or to HUMANELY and with DIGNITY separate the truly dangerously sick.Also no life = 10 years, no execution or actual life sentences except for oath taking office holders, all charges and sentences for one overall "incident" (the bank robbery, the getaway, the assaults, the accidentally dead pedestrian in the crosswalk during the chase) must be concurrent and capped at 10 years, and no time shall be served for anything happening past 20 years into the past (murder someone and hide for 18 years? 2 year max in prison). Basically we need to give everyone guns and cut the state's cock off and make it just like its true mascot (Baphomet)!
>>475692386You don't think it's wrong, you inherently know it's not. You just don't like when it happens to you, so you have adopted this extremely childish view of the world.
>>475692386There is a time for punishment. There is a time for mercy. There is a time for everything.
>>475697517Prison is still punishment though.
>>475697610Duh! It's all subjective, mate. Our views stem solely from our empathy. There is no right or wrong, just opinions. Even the law itself is an opinion.
>>475697677I hate it too, but there must also be the right and ability to disassociate in your society or else you can't escape dregs. My idea of prison is for the 5-10% who are so fucked they (and society) need them separated and well treated. This isn't failure to pay taxes, this is constantly B&E with an assault last time kind of mental case. Unless you propose victims try to kill them in the act. It's like lions, they will fuck you up but you don't purposefully house to mistreat them.
>tricking/lying to people, even when it' may be in their interest, causes no traumaFalse, absolutely, verifiably false.Just take a look around this board. Most anons are angry and hurt from having been tricked/lied to by their government, family, teachers and societies. And while some lies were of course malicious, many were well-meaning, or simply stemmed from ignorance.
>>475698759Do you really think finding out you've been peacefully tricked into behaving ethically by the government is worse than prison?
I hate niggers
>>475697487But more peaceful, yes.
Ok, absolute Pacifism But mine literal elder sister being 14, she tried fore Bob DylanI know why he didn't come fore that European prize
Ok, I wil hint ye fore pol/der dreads>also gtfo
>>475699043Yes, unfortunately. Prison is a realistic and enforcable system that allows us to deal with anti-social behaviour (rape, robbery, murder, etc) in both a preventative and punitive manner. In some cases, even rehabilitative. "Tricking" somebody into acting ethically is an unrealistic solution, how do you even trick a pathological serial killer into not murdering and raping more victims? How do you convince or trick inner city basketballers with an IQ of 80-90 to refrain from their base, but natural impulses to rape or rob somebody? Unless you propose some kind neuro-chemical or psychological brainwashing process, I just don't see it being viable. And honestly, I think that kind of intervention is far more disgusting and dehumanizing than simply locking somebody up for a certain period of time; my body may not be free in prison, but my mind and will are still my own.
>>475700596Sorry vren I can only read after replying. Because, just as my national anthem says about the South.
>>475700596I still think prison and punishment in general is wrong. Call me insane, but I really do. It's not like I chose to have this view. I literally want to cry when I see some shit.
>>475692386i also don't believe in punishment. i simply believe in removing a threat from the people, usually by locking that threat away somewhere where it can't hurt anyone. though some say the threat of punishment scares some people straight and further suffering can actually be prevented this way. ultimately i'm not sure how true that is. anyways the technologies and techniques you're talking about would inevitably be abused. the state controls the legal system and the state is... well they're evil. they would abuse it. think of what they would do with that power you advocate to develop and perfect for them
>>475701256Why are you calling criminals "it"?
>>475701256Instead of spending our resources on law enforcement, we should spend them on eliminating the root causes of crimes.
>>475701353it in the context i used refers to the threat not the person him (or her) self>removing a threat from the people, usually by locking that threat awaywhy would you have me call the person the threat? that person is not innately a threat, his actions are the threat. he could take different actions and no longer present a threat.don't play pilpul games with me faggot i'll just spin the bullshit back at you and now we're both spewing nonsense. what a waste of time
>>475701421ok but you totally dodged the point which is why the fuck would you trust a government to mind control people so overtly? you know they're just going to declare everyone who disagrees with the state to be criminal and then brainwash them. you can't be so naive as to not anticipate that so i assume thats you're desired outcome. why? are you just evil or something? power hungry? obsessed with control and domination?
>>475701526I didn't mean anything offensive, mate. Sorry.
>>475701631I'll take anything over punishment.
>>475701666no you were trying to do a clever little "gotcha" to win the "argument" using semantics. i'm so fucking tired of that trick. you want to run me in circles and dodge my main points, i've played this game before.>>475701713the state brainwashing me to love trannies and cut my dick off and die in a war for israel would be a punishment to me. and thats exactly what would happen and you know it, you want it
>>475701797I assure you I did not want to play any "games." I don't know what's going on in there, but please calm the fuck down, mate.Anyway, being brainwashed wouldn't feel like punishment because you're not aware of the fact you're being brainwashed. We'll all be happy in it. You're just afraid right now because you're aware of it.
>>475701954Might as well just lobotomize the entire human race into a vegetative state then, eh? We'll feel nothing but bliss, after all, so who cares?
>>475701954so if they brainwash you into cutting off your own body parts and then murdering other people on behalf of the government its ok because you've also been brainwashed to enjoy it?wowyou're evil, you've proved that. we're done here.
>>475692386>flagsad to see your half-nigger brothers arrested for murder and rape?
>>475702190he would unironically think thats a great idea. thats what happens when low iq dunning-kruger effect normies shed the safety rails of religion and try to moralize on their own
>>475702305or he's evil and is just pretending to be a guy who doesn't like punishment to try and sell an evil idea. its one of those. either he's stupid or evil.
>>475702385You think I have a chance to sell an evil idea? What would I gain by coming to 4chan and do it? How would that make it more likely to happen?
>>475702190Ye Germany. As long as the South is still
>>475702190Don't deny HollandWe want ur RussiaOKThis is what we want
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0&list=PLpTHjAucqq9A2IDIsR8Ftbg7U6bKCMrcr&index=2
>>475702527Wtf even is this retarded pilpul.>>475702704>>475702745Mein Neger, you guys need to conquer Belgium and Luxemburg and reinstate the Kingdom of Frisia already.
My sister is a journalist>It could have been prevented>Dying of brest cancer nowShe never(Me)
>>475702962Listen vren 500 iq before
>>475692386Fuck islamembrace cristianism
>>475702527it's called a trial balloon. you float the idea out, see how people respond, make adjustments, try again. when you have a line of reasoning that seems to convince people you then run with that.
>>475703044I'm not religious, my guy.
>>475703044K come one then
>>475692386>You might say "well, that violates basic human rights of consent." Well, so does punishment. And this is where your logic fails. The rights that actually exist in nature are none. Rights we ENFORCE are decided by the society/civilization. Without enforcement of a right, there is no right.
>>475703160So, you think I have the ability to execute this "evil plan"? Like, I work for the government or will work for the government?
>>475703044Listen, mine sister, unless they report in fore benisFuck you negers
>>475703460 (Me)However so nei YOU
>>475703361its a possibility, there's another possibility here >>475702305
>>475703316Human brains don't resonate with absolutes, so we can't just converse like some sort of transdimensional beings.
>>4757035161. If I'm just a normie, then that means I don't have an executive ability to overestimate in the first place.2. I'm not religious.
>>475703541It doesn't really matter if someone believes it or not, it's the de-facto default state of nature that rights are a construct that requires enforcement. OP does have the ability however to see his conviction through to death.
>>475703697Ya MoroccoYe undulated speaking te Holland
>>475703697>pretending he doesn't understand so he can run me in circles over the same tired nonsense instead of actually addressing anything i actually saidclassic pilpul. but i don't play that game. you know what i meant
>>475703837Being Moroccan doesn't imply being religious, my friend.
>>475692386The reason this is your philosophy is because you are a pedophile. Ask me how I know this.
>>475703902You'll pass fore the Dutch National anthem>I still do not know what they werehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwOfCgkyEj0&list=PLpTHjAucqq9A2IDIsR8Ftbg7U6bKCMrcr&index=3
>>475703765I know that rights are relative concept. I was just saying that I don't see myself talking so absolutely for the fear that people here wouldn't relate enough to engage.God, I sound like the nerd emoji.
I want mine Russia now
>>475692386you have empathy, its ok but can get you in trouble if you start defending the worse types like chris from mr beast
>>475704027Is it because of this:>>475693695
Don't lower your standards for the retards. Most people here are fucking cattle who think they're edgy. All you're going to achieve is lowering yourself to their level instead of moving forward. I understand though, finding people intelligent enough to discuss these things these days is a nontrivial task, so much so it's practically a waste of time.
>>475704275>>475704056
>>475697003Even the pets?
>>475704275Yeah, sometimes I think I'm the only human with this extreme view. I've already given up trying to change things a bit ago though. I'm just trying to find people that can relate so I don't go insane.
take a low iq normie who doesn't understand he's low iqnow strip him of all religion, so that he has no religion. and has to come up with the rules of morality on his own without the safety rails religion would provide. and he goes right over the edge.the end result? philosophies like the one op has proposed, which i have already revealed the flaws of in earlier posts. such ideas are often not even from the normie himself but the idea of someone evil trying to gain support by feigning decency and tricking the normie.i thought op was the normie. but after he expertly dodged any legitimate criticisms and then engaged in pilpul by playing dumb, i now know him to be the latter. he is working for the state, they would like to mind control the shit out of us, he is working for them to trial balloon the idea online and see how people respond to it so they can adjust their strategy going forward.op is evil
>>475702190/THREADOP is El Retardo
>>475704622Are most 4chan users this paranoid? I'm a newfag.
>>475704712why the fuck shouldn't we be this paranoid? entirely justified at this point
>>475704786This entire time, you've been making me anxious and feeling like a cockroach. But after I saw you saying you figured out that I work for the state and that I'm trying to mind-control you, I just laughed and relieved it.
>>475704978uh huh, i saw you play dumb though. if you're not some kind of shill then why did you do that? and you still haven't addressed any of the legitimate criticisms of your plan and instead do everything to redirect the topic. tactic after tactic straight out of some shill handbook, we've all been exposed to it before. in response to this post you'll employ another tactic, over and over, after so much expertise being a dishonest shit i doubt your brain is even capable of honesty anymore. leaving you an empty shell of a man, lying to even himself, capable only of pilpul and bad faith arguments.
>>475704585Well your view is not one that reflects the reality in which we exist. You want to elevate yourself above this reality into some kind of transcendental place, but in this reality most people are animals and behave like animals. They cannot join you there.
>>475705440Honesty is the reason I made this post. But I know you'll never believe anything I say given how paranoid you are from a 4chan post.
>>475704622>implying this is some psyop to shift the overton window on a herd of cattleAre you even familiar the depths of human stupidity in the masses? They don't even think about any of this. Why would the state focus on a psyop targeted at <1% of the population (and that's probably being generous)?
>>475705548Every human behaves like an animal. Every human IS an animal. What morals do is fake differences between citizens and criminals.
>>475705731so you're in on it too huh?
>>475692386So what you want to do is introduce a world where free will doesn't exist. Which literally makes the benefits of doing the right thing and being a good person meaningless, because everyone is forced to be good. No punishment. No reward. Just a mundane life of 'existence'.Fuck that shit.
>>475705845Free will doesn't exist anyway. It makes no difference.
>>475705731notice how he pretends to misunderstand mei specifically explained the concept of a trial balloon and he is pretending i am implying this thread itself is the psyop and not just the trial balloon for one.
>>475704712Yes, there are some smart schizos and autists here. Paranoid as they come, although IMO that paranoia is an essential defensive strategy in this world. Problem is something in their brain is fucked so the paranoia starts intertwining with reality and they ironically lack the intelligence to separate the two logically. I don't know if this is a physical constraint of their fucked up neural wiring or some form of psychological phenomena, but it is what it is.
>>475705907I think I'm too stupid to hold a conversation that would satisfy you.
>>475705907A trial a balloon is aimed at a large population strata, not one consisting of <1% of people. Clearly you might know what a trial balloon is on paper, but you don't clearly don't understand the details when it comes to the math and stats to properly utilize it.You genuinely have something wrong with you psychologically or physically with the wiring. Here's the test of your own intelligence - are you intelligent enough to recognize the problem and work around it?
>>475705932so are you the supervisor that op called in when he started losing control over the thread? how many trial balloons are you running from your alphabet agency psyop center? trying to prep the people for widespread reprogramming of the population? trying to figure out how to sell it as a good thing? lol but you keep outing yourself by using all the tactics from your shill handbook, which i have read by the way lol
>>475706069>uh acktually a trial balloon is...missing the point to mire me in a semantics debate. classic tactic
>>475706097You MUST be a troll. I CANNOT believe this any longer...
>>475705932Maybe me and them are having this debate because we're both autistic. XD
>>475706097You know that John Nash was able to eventually recognize and control is schizophrenia, that's what real intelligence looks like. I honestly hope that you can achieve that kind of enlightenment at some point because your potential is being constrained by it.
>>475692386I'd rather be punished than psychologically manipulated - and I say that as someone who has had both. I've been beaten up and manipulated. The latter was a lot fucking worse>zero traumaFuck no. Do you have any idea how traumatic it is to find out your best friend was taking advantage of your amnesia to manipulate you?I legitimately have trust issues because of thatI would rather just be punched or somethingFWIW, I want him to be punished (not manipulated), because I'm a good person
>>475697800>Stem solely from our empathyI don't even know where to begin explaining how wrong this is. I'll try this: I raised geese for a while. Geese are highly organized in their flocks. While some of them eat, the other half stand guard, then they switch when one half has had enough. One day, a goose tried to rape another male goose to show dominance. The other geese chased him out of the flock, and shunned him. They wouldn't let him eat or anything. Somehow the shunned goose got hurt, and when the other geese saw that opportunity, they swarmed on him and killed him. I watched them do it, it really is interesting to see animals enforce law like that. Do you know why they did it? Pack maintenance. If one goose starts fucking up and they allow it, the structure of their flock falls apart and they instinctually know that. Society is just a much more advanced, and complex, flock. And our laws are to maintain its structure. >picrel unrelated
>>475706232I wouldn't put it on them to somehow "control" their "schizophrenia" if it is true.
>>475706155>>475706232sure surebut what about the fact that the state would abuse this power, label any dissidents as criminal, and then brainwash them into becoming soldiers to murder for globohomo. you keep dodging that criticism
>>475706319He manipulated you for his own gain. I was talking about manipulation for both the criminal's good and the greater good.
>>475706155I recognize talking to this person on here before. If they were a troll I think they would have gotten bored of it a long time ago. They're obviously intelligent, just fucking something wrong in their brain. I'd wager they know what I'm saying is true just from the people in their life.
>citizen we have detected wrongthink, please report to the enlightenment center for re-education
>>475692386>>475692838I understand where you are coming from, but too many people are sociopaths and psychopaths. Some people, no matter how hard you try to help them, will pretend that they won't do wrong again, only to cave your fucking skull in the first chance they get. They will pretend that they won't abuse animals again, only to beat their dog into submission and kill their girlfriend's cats because they genuinely get joy through causing pain and suffering. Some people need to be separated from the rest of society for society to function. Not as punishment. Not as revenge.It's like removing a stone from your shoe so you can walk properly, or removing a splinter to prevent an infection.Some people can't be fixed. I am speaking from experience.
>>475706331Then I deem society "evil."
>>475706471yes yes, a long tired ad hom, post after post reiterating that you have no actual argument other then labelling me insane>take meds, touch grass, have sexyes yes, i've heard it all before
>>475706468How would it be good for either? You can't manipulate someone if they know it's manipulation, so it would have to be gaslighting and shit like thatIf/when they eventually find out, they'll have trust issues and extreme paranoia for the rest of their lifeEveryone has a baseline understanding of how the justice system works, so they'll eventually realize some of their life is literally fakeI'd honestly rather kill myself than live in your dystopia
>>475706603that's cute coming from you
>>475706650>extreme paranoia for the rest of their lifewhat's wrong with that? i'm having a great time
>>475692386People like you should be culled. We don’t need weak faggots.
>>475706543With all due respect (seriously thank you), your experience is still limited. What punishment does is pout water on sand. We need to fix ROOT causes of crimes instead of "fixing" crimes.
>>475706631Wait, why sex? Are they calling you sex-depraved?
>>475706603Its evil to prevent chaos so that there can be peace, abundance, and order?
>>475706761>We need to fix ROOT causes of crimes instead of "fixing" crimes.translation: we need to let the government openly brainwash dissidents into serving the will of the state.
>>475706688Thanks! ^w^
>>475706631Well you know what I said is true. Nevertheless I really don't give a shit what you end up doing, I'm not one to talk considering I gave up myself years and I'm patiently waiting for either SHTF or my number being called by the reaper.This reality is hell for me and I'm looking forward to the slim possibility I can isekai into a better one after death.
>>475706719haha it is sometimes good, I feel I have some natural defense against scams. I also document everything meticulously. It still hurts to find out something cool I "just discovered" has an entry on my personal wiki from months ago that I forgot about, but that's the nature of having awful patchy memory
>>475705731Because that <1% represent a major threat to the institutionalized power structure, especially because to the epidemic, memetic potential for spreading dissident ideas.I think Canada anon is overreacting, imo OP is more likely a retarded normalfaggot or an actual psycho than a glownigger. But he's not wrong to be playing it on the safe side. And you're acting like a faggot too, pretending that this board isn't monitored or spammed by interested government parties.If you're both ACTUAL newfaggots, not shills, you need to STFU with your dumb opinions and LURK 2 moar years.
>>475692386I agree in principle but jews are too sick, they are cursed and their golem will wage war on man forever unless they are stopped. Undoubtedly men will quarrel, such is life, but jews scheme with their master and peace is forbidden to them. If they can't have a nation, then none will.
>>475706850>playing dumb againlol. why though? there was not even a point to playing dumb that time. is it that you lie and manipulate by default and it takes a massive effort for you to ever speak truthfully, if you even still can? this is why governments, intelligence agencies, and media is so mentally ill, they become chronic compulsive liars and then start deluding themselves. turn away from this path while you still can
>>475706650Nobody has to realize anything. It's like the classic saying of "it's not illegal if you never get caught."
>>475692386>I thought of an alternative justice where psychological manipulation is used instead of punishment.This is a very deeply subhuman point of view.
>>475706992Holy fuck, you have to be a trollDo you really think this is remotely feasible? To manipulate millions of people and have almost none of them find out?What do you do with those that do find out and resist the manipulation? Do you start to punish them?
>>475692386I believe in punishment by work, criminals do all the work and we live like NEET gods among them. No brutal work conditions either, just normal hard work
>>475706733Weakness is not unlocking empathy for criminals. You don't know how much it hurts seeing someone else suffer like that. You don't experience any of my painful empathy.
>>475707054^^ thisOP is sick and twisted, retarded, or a trollCould be all three
>>475706865Peace, abundance and order can be achieved with more than one age-old sleeve trick.
>>475707121This is how you strip someone of their autonomy. The thing is, people like OP already raise children like this and the result is literal NPCs.
>>475706892No, I mean causes in the environment that led the criminal to do the crime.
>>475707216>psychological manipulation is used instead of punishment. So, you'd trick the subject into not doing bad basically.so after they commit the crime you reprogram for good right?
>>475706543Fucking kek, never thought I'd witness an ozzy be the voice of reason.
>>475707172Kek, how?
>>475706969People don't have to be only this or that. I might be a mix of normal AND psycho, or even something else entirely! I'm not a psychologist. Are you?
>>475692961Do a back flip faggot
the state would use brainwashing to reprogram only violent offenders to stop being violent right? the state would never abuse that to turn dissidents into soldiers to serve globohomo right? we can trust the justice system with this power right?
>>475707081No? Don't fucking punish!
>>475692386pacifism is a fucking joke. you'll just get eaten by cannibals when there's no one to protect you
anyways op would love to punish me for wrongthing, sorry he doesn't believe in punishment. it would eb a benevolent reprogramming, he'll make sure i'm happy to serve globohomo
>>475707521>wrongthingwrongthink
>>475707195We're already NPCs according to determinism.
>>475695852Probably but it's getting harder to tell.Revenge is for God but criminals need to be kept separate from regular people.>>475696937That belief is why school children are so unruly these days.Your generation is raising coddled brats who have no ability to rein in their emotions.Actions have consequences and these days bad behavior is rewarded.
>>475707305Yep. You see that as bad. I see punishment as bad.
>>475692386Same, I don't get why so many people love being against each other.My idea for criminals would be different tho. Human rights my ass, human rights come as a privilege for acting as a functional member of society. The moment you chimp out and commit crimes, you lose that privilege as a consequence.I wouldn't keep criminals lazy in prisons, I would make them work, use them in contruction, cleaning streets, doing anything to support the society they harmed, by force, under guard.I would also remove the death penalty, that's just getting away from their crimes easily. Let them work, hard, and watch society flourish, get better, let them break their backs and suffer while people around get happier.
>>475707471Of course. This will bring peace, freedom, justice and security to our new empire... I mean democracy!
anyways ops chilling dystopian idea that sounds like something ripped from an episode of black mirror has been thoroughly ripped to shreds in the thread and he has no rebuttal except classic shill tactics of misdirection, misunderstanding, and pilpul
>>475707353Using the brain instead of the brawn.
>>475692386>My view is that punishment is wrong no matter what.That's such a sweet, and completely retarded worldview. Thank you for sharing this almost childlike optimism with us.Never stop dreaming. And probably also don't leave home without an escort.
>>475707471Then how can we trust them with the current justice system anyway? This shit is just inevitable.
>>475707563>We're already NPCs according to determinism.You're already an NPC for sure and determinism is just your metaphysical dogma.
>>475707516I'd rather be killed by someone than punish them.
>>475692386Die in pain.
>>475698759>muh traumaPeople are babies these days.You do realize the more people's whims are catered to, the less tolerance they have for even trivial discomfort?It isn't just social media responsible for epidemic narcissism.
>>475707602as do i, as i already explained in my first post. i don't care for punishment, i care only to reduce harm by isolating violent offenders so they have no access to victims. however there is potentially a deterrent effect to punishment that prevents further suffering, but i'm not sure. what i am sure of is that the government would abuse the power you think they should have. they would take people who oppose them and then reprogram them. where have we seen this idea before? ah yes, in george orwells 1984. it's not a new idea
>>475706761I'm sorry, but in my view, it is your experience that is limited. I've seen people turn their life around from being on a seriously dangerous path, and I've seen people who, no matter how much of a second chance you give them, will keep killing grandma's for their handbags even when they are working a decent job. And they will cry, and say they are sorry, and it won't happen again, and next week they are doing a home invasion even though they don't need to.I don't believe in the death penalty, but some people are born evil and need to be incarcerated or exiled. Jeffrey Dahmer ate people despite not being in a situation where he was deprived of food. How are you going to trick him into not being a cannibal?
>>475707606OH, HELL NO! That is the opposite of what I'm saying! Do NOT fucking punish, for the love of God!
>>475707728we can't but at least they're not reprogramming masses of civilians for wrongthink yet. though you would like them to start as soon as possible. i wouldn't like that much
>>475707658So you just want to take free will away? Ok. I can agree with that when it comes to the shitskins, they're never going to stop being subhuman. Perhaps that's what's needed when it comes to them, but why do it to societies that are capable of managing their own and have prospered with free will? >>475707765Now you're just baiting.
>>475701421The root cause of crime is bad parents and bad genetics. Particularly single mother households.
>>475707741No, I'm just basing it on science.
>>475707845Living around niggers is trauma. I refuse to serve them, etc alone work for them. I'll suck this system's welfare dry until the test dries up and thn I'll probably anhero. Fuck this nigger pit.
literally 1984ministry of truthTHERE!ARE!FOUR!LIGHTS!
>>475708015>I'm just basing it on science.At best, science is completely agnostic to your purely metaphysical dogma. Realistically, the empirical evidence contradicts it outright.
Treat other people the way you want to be treated.Treat other people the way they treat you.Treat other people the way they treat other people.Whichever one you choose, the result is at least fair.
>>475707958Again, I don't believe in free will anyway. Also, I'm not baiting.
>>475708184How is denying a supernatural force that is supposed to represent consciousness metaphysics?
>>475708335You sound like a broken bot. Your reply makes zero sense.
>>475705759Read the New Testament.The answers are in there.
>>475708359What I'm saying is that if you follow science, science says the big bang is the sole cause for everything. So, if you tell me we are free, then you are implying otherwise.
>>475708202So by your logic the people you're advocating not punishing would commit the act in question regardless of punishment, and you think that brainwashing would be the factor to change their determined paths?
>>475707485So... do nothing about autistics and schizos you can't control? Wow what a well thought out system you have hereJust jail them, dude
>>475708418>if you follow science...At best, science is completely agnostic to your purely metaphysical dogma. Realistically, the empirical evidence contradicts it outright.
I have a solution to OP's conundrum:He should simply lobotomize himself.Then, he won't feel so bad about this punishment. OP is happy. We no longer have to put up with his shit. Everybody wins!>>475707845No shit. My point was that lying to/manipulating people for the sake of some vague "greater good" is way more retarded than establishing and enforcing clear laws and consequences for bad behaviour. Cause and effect. But tbf, when I posted that I was still under the assumption that OP might be arguing in good, albeit naive faith. Now I'm convinced he's a glownigger or troll.
>>475708448no, he's going to allow the government to completely reprogram anyone they say is a criminal. completely rewrite their behavior to correct for all wrongthink. what could go wrong?
>>475708439It would be determined if that happens. The things that will happen, will happen. There is no changing that. The big bang caused every reply in this entire thread.
>>475708526What an evil fucking retardI can't wait for him to be reprogrammed
>>475707911What you're saying is not only impossible, but also less humane and helps society less than my suggestion.Humans are prone to violence, it's human instinct, violence itself was detrimental in our evolution as a species. Brainwashing someone into not being bad would make them less human.What I am suggesting instead, is not harming anyone's humanity, but using those who cannot control their violent tendencies for the betterment of our society.
>>475708566lol, that would be ironic. hoisted by his own petard
>>475692386if you break the law, you deserve punishment and ridicule.
>>475708592It is sad indeed.
>>475708592I think you mean fundamental or inherent, not detrimental, just fyi.>detrimental = harmful, counterproductive
>>475707081The only effective manipulation involves violence or the threat of violence.The rest is illusion.Nothing about the covid hoax would've worked without state force and guns behind it.OP is embarrassingly naive.>>475707102Criminals don't give a shit about the suffering they cause. Do you just let them run rampant? Id you were empathetic you'd empathize with the victims.So why do you empathize with criminals unless you relate to them more? You just resent boundaries.
>>475708673So, if YOU break the law, do you want to be punished?
>>475708856YesWe keep telling you it's better than manipulation
>>475708492That sounds about right for him. >>475708565You make no fucking sense, you know that right? Then why the hell have you spent the past 3 hours advocating brainwashing people if you don't even believe it would do anything? I've been arguing for things demonstrated in nature, see >>475706331 and all you can do is shit out half ass answers like this. Im going to bed, kys dumbass.
>>475708803yeahgonna ESL moment myself for this one
>>475708824I don't care if criminals give a shit. I only know that I'm the one who cares about them.
>>475709013nobodies buying the naive act anymore. you're a wolf in sheeps clothing trying to sell state brainwashing of dissidents as a good and benevolent idea
>>475709064I just want people who can relate dammit! Because so far in my life nobody does.
>>475709144>dodges the criticism again
>>475709013I kek every time this deranged psychopath whines about how much he "cares" about other people. This is female normie narcissism to the nth degree.
>>475708920Nighty night, anon. Sleep tight.
>>475708856If I break the law and am stupid enough to get cought, yes I deserve all the punishment.Either you are a woman or you are huffing that estrogen pack. Cause by God you have no shred of logic in you.
>>475709192Literally what do you want me to tell you? You're not gonna be convinced, mate.
>>475709241I'm huffing autism, I'll tell you that.
>>475709267say you've seen the error in your ways and that we have made the flaws in your plan clear to you. thank us for enlightening you. and then fuck off
>>475709344Nobody is right. Everything is subjective. I just don't want to feel alone in my view.
>>475709344Checked.Gonna enjoy watching OP trying to squirm his way out of this.
>>475709410>Everything is subjectiveah yes, the logic of satanism
I think this has been my longest debate ever, wow...
>>475692386Nah punishment can make you gain knowledge. Let's not remove things that let's us know who and what we are.
>I am le quirky pacifist atheist moroccanstop shaming our flag vpn faggotwe already have enough fag shit to deal with.
>>475709410No... Your emotional ramblings are dangerous at best. If someone breaks a law/commits a crime, they deserve punishment. Otherwise you will invite chaos into society. In your fucked up "teehee peace love and peace!" world, a nigger can kill all your family members and all your friends, rob you of your valuables and then do the same to the neighbour, and you would just preach "we have to forgive him!". If I were your neighbour in that scenario, not only would torture the nigger for as long as he can stay alive, but I would do the same to you. You would forgive me in your retarded mind, after all!
>>475709816Shaming your what? I'm not shaming anyone nor using a VPN.
>>475709905But you're missing the effectiveness of psychological manipulation.
>>475710032no, we get it, we've all read george orwell
>>475710216Why don't you just ignore me and this post? Neither of us are gonna achieve anything here.
>>475710322was the goal for you achievement? what were you trying to achieve? i'm just passing time
>>475710495Ah, I figured. I was looking for like-minded people since, you know, sharing an ostracized view can be quite the cow on the shoulder.
>>475710754>sharinghaving*
>>475710754you'll find plenty of people who share your vision for a dystopian future where the state monitors for wrongthink and then corrects with brainwashing: at the world economic forum
>>475710893Thanks, I guess.
Nevermind, I'm not into it. It's economics for Christ's sake.
>>475711002still pretending you don't understand my argument? still not addressing it even though clear as day, there it is, proving you wrong. no shame in admitting you were wrong. here, let me do it for you. just copy and paste the below text>>hey so i was a little naive, i just wanted a world without punishment, but i see now that the state would abuse this power to brainwash dissidents and that overall it would increase the suffering and injustice in this world while empowering the very worst of humanity to continue their power-mad quest for absolute dominance. now that you've explained it to me i can admit i was wrong, thanks for setting me straight.
>>475692386Pain means fearAnd fear just can'tcoexist with love
>>475711107it's all the most powerful people in the world, every banker, every leader of a nation, every major ceo. they're all openly members of the world economic forum and they all have their meetings there where they decide policy for the world going forward, mostly in secret. but you already knew that you little pretender you
This makes me feel like Philip Carvel from Utopia.
>>475711445also they make these creepy speeches and write these sus articles trying to sugarcoat their dystopic plans. "you will own nothing and you will be happy" that was them. they tried to claim they never said that but its still on the internet archive i checked
>>475711601Just forget about it.
>>475711301I don't get it. What does this have to do with my post?
>>475711661it's my deterministic fate not to forget about it, don't blame me. right? it's not like any of us has a choice right? we're all just coasting on the cause and effect from the big bang right? so why even ask me to forget about it? whether i do or don't is entirely out of mine or anyone elses control. right? wrong. because cause and effect breaks down at the micro scale where fundamentally random fluctuations occur. and somewhere between the random micro scale and the determined macro scale is your little neurons, tied into a quantum state via microtubules. so no i won't just forget about it
>>475712275This is heavily theorized, no?
Somtimes you have to violently root out the weeds to make the garden blossom.
>>475712416Treating criminals like objects, are we?
>>475712275Then how do you explain upbringing causing future behavior? Did you choose to become the way you are the moment you were created?
>>475712500I'm all for fixing people, but sometimes you get a bunch that cannot be fixed and they are too dangerous to live free in a society. What would you do with em? Keep them locked up forever?
>>475712388some of it is, some of it isn't. random particles pop in and out of existence in a vacuum, thats real go look it up. basic physics. though one could argue even basic physics is heavily theorized. the quantum state of the microtubules in your neurons is a bit theorized but there are studies in mainstream journals suggesting it without going into the implications.your faith in determinism is unfounded basically. i already worked this shit out for myself like 20 years ago, when i went through my deterministic atheist phase on high school. its real entry level philosophy talking about cause and effect like you're some genius.looking forward to your trite and inane response that doesn't address anything i actually said
>>475712725>upbringing causing future behavior>causesinfluences not causes
>>475692961No, anon, don't do i->americanMake sure to livestream it
>>475712826What difference does it make? You still didn't choose the outcome.
>>475712728yeah. but its not about locking them up, it's about putting them somewhere where they won't have access to victims. maybe that should be the focus instead of punishment. make them as comfortable and free as possible while still containing them. but then again there is some psychological deterrence effect to punishment that could prevent further crime and suffering so maybe don't make them too comfortable.
>>475712881>looking forward to your trite and inane response that doesn't address anything i actually saidand you did not disappoint
>>475712965Anytime.
>>475712500>noo, you have to degrade society and bend backwards for crackheads and rapists because think of the individualFuck you faggot, we're way too lenient on criminals
>>475692386This is b->85 PBTIDHuh. AI?
>>475713023Literally imagine you're a criminal for a second. Don't tell me "oh I can never-" Just do it, then reply.
>>475713116>that pedophile that got hung? That could have been me!This is you.
>>475713205Try again.
>>475713267How about I try and alert your authorities so they find and lynch your child raping ass? What did you do/plan to do?
>>475713355I said imagine YOU are a criminal.
>>475713116What sort of criminal? Law is subjective.If I murder someone, I don't deserve freedom. If I prove that I am a danger to others, I should be locked away.This is not a really hard concept honestly.
>>475713418he's trying to mental gymnastics his way into>the government should reprogram people it doesn't like so they obeythat's the whole point of this thread, him trying to make a case for that grim dystopic reality
>>475713404Ok, now I get punished. Shouldn't have broken the law, I either go to jail or pay a fine depending on the severity of my crime. Now what, pedophile?
>>475713418Then why don't all criminals give themselves up? You're saying you're not going to fear punishment and NOT want to be punished after knowing you're caught?
>>475713538Bullshit. You're only saying it because you're not in a situation where you're actually a criminal. You're a human, not a machine designed to follow the rules.
>>475692386Why do you think psychological manipulation isn't traumatic or painless? You can't establish an authority over people without the credible threat of violence for disobeying that authority whether it's physical retribution like flogging or the death penalty, removal from society like incarceration or exile, or subjecting the disobedient to whatever nightmare fuel psychological horror you have in mind. You could argue that western "democracies" are already doing the last one against the general population to catastrophic effect on mental health.
>>475713539Hey faggot, if we started treating criminals with kid gloves don't you think criminals will start doing crime because of minimal consequences? Are you mentally handicapped, you kid fucker?
>>475713666>You're a human, not a machine designed to follow the rules.I think you're just a dumb animal who can't stop himself from lusting after kids so you're here trying to make the case on why treating you is a better option than putting a bullet through your head and preserving the well being of society at minimal cost.
>>475713713It's called invisible authority. It's like it's never there, but it is, tricking people into not disobeying.
>>475713717I think I am done here.
>>475713539You said I had to imagine "myself" as a criminal. I understand rules of society and respect for others well being, and if I went out of my way to violate them, I should be punished for it.Unfortunately lots of people are not as rational and kind as me, so they need punishment as a deterrent from doing bad things.
>>475692386You are alone, you will be punished.
>>475713512Kind of hypocritical because violating someones free will and mind for his actions is definitely "punishment"
>>475692386What an excellent way to allow me to torture you to death with no real repercussions.It's your arrogant conviction that ideas can prevail over reality that cause the latter to be progressively more unkind to you.
>>475714017I knew I was alone all along! I fucking knew it!
>>475713893Yeah, you're done. You can maybe try and make your faggy arguments on reddit, they're low iq enough to love midwit tier theoreticals
>>475714058What'd you do, faggot? Answer the question
>>475714040Is it though? The subject is not harmed. So, how is it punishment?
>>475714058Alone in having this view lol.
>>475714040his response is that they will also be brainwashed to enjoy being brainwashed so its all good. he pretends he doesn't see how this could go wrong or be abused by governments
>>475714218Again, governments already abuse their powers. It makes no difference in that regard.
>>475714316so they've already proven they can't be trusted with more power. especially the power to control minds at an individual level for total brainwashing
>>475714464They already have that power.
>>475714158Prisoners are not harmed when they are locked away in a prison, so with your logic thats not a punishment either then.
>>475714574They are mentally harmed by being forced there, sometimes even physically.
>>475714574>>475714464Good job fueling this reddit gold farmer by going along with this woman tier hypothetical
>>475714511no they don't, that's why you're asking for it. the whole point of this thread is that you want governments to brainwash criminals into not doing crimes. if they had that kind of power they would eventually expand it to cover any dissent as a crime. and whoever argues with that will be taken in for brainwashing. its so obvious so stop pretending you can't connect the dots.
>>475714677You would be mentally harming someone if you brainwash them against their will.
>>475714759You guys are so assumptive, man.
>>475714824I'm asking they execute that power. And you're assuming their motives.
>>475714830Not against their will. It must be invisible.
>>475714912ah ha, so you admit you are asking for that. finally.and then you say>but what makes you think the government would do that?LOLseriously? are you fucking kidding me right now? you are taking the piss. why wouldn't they? WHY THE FUCK WOULDN'T THEY? morality? do you have any idea what the lust for power does to a man? absolute power corrupts absolutely ever heard that? why take the risk. absolutely foolish.also i can tell you're a woman. ashamed it took me this long to figure it out but i see it now in your reasoning.
SIX HOURS DEBATE MY GOD
>>475714848>reddit tier mentality>reddit tier argument>I'm le quirky autist xD>can't even reply to multiple posts in one post>102pbtidYeah, a real mystery why I'd label you
>>475714944Thats literally against their will.This is like saying rape is not rape if I rape someone who is asleep and they never knew I raped them.
>>475715137Yes. Great example.
>>475715085>arguing with faggots on 4chan is a debateI rest my case, hope you retards enjoy being in screencaps and having updoots under them
>>475715085it's not a debate because you're not able to debate. this is an entirely one sided rhetorical gangrape.
>>475714912>I want the government to abuse their power to hurt and coerce people against their willAAAAAAND that's a wrap, folks.You are scum.Hang yourself, today.
>>475715229Exactly, mate. But the 6 hours isn't in vain. I've learned this is not my place lmao.
>>475715460yeah if you can't learn and grow as a person over the course of a discussion then you can't make it here.
>>475715544Thank you.
>>475715578no seriously. debates have changed my mind about all kinds of things, because i'm open to being wrong. you're not and so you learn nothing
>>475715544>/pol/ is the place to have coherent discussions and learnYou're just being silly
>>475715633Listen man, I know one thing: everything is subjective. This is my own opinion. So, there's that at least.
>>475715665and... it's a place for frends. cheers
>>475715707no that's wrong too but we're too long into this thread to start a new debate.
>>475692386Yes, I do not get you. I'm pretty sure you are retarded.Assuming that everyone is good and wants to do good is incredibly naive. Punishments exist and are a tried and true method because most people are barely above animals. Yes, me and you included, faggot.Unless there is a threat that something bad will happen to you if you don't act like a normal person no one would obey the rules.We know this because of more than two thousand years of societies collapsing and of endless discussions on the matter. And, even now, most nations on earth cannot agree on what is deemed a 'sufficient punishment' for a certain crime. Some say death, others say rehabilitation.Psychological Manipulation? That is quite literally what we already do. From a young age we are taught that certain things are wrong and that they should not be done. During the first two decades of your life you are given lenient punishments for disobeying those rules and for doing harm to others.It is when you've become an adult and you've proven incapable of acting like a civilized human being that we bring out the rod.Don't say you think you know better than the entire fucking world because you fapped in the shower and think you've attained enlightenment.
>>475715460>>475715707>I don't want to confront reality!>I want to live in a fantasy la-la-land!There's only one place for you to go then, and it ain't this world.
>>475715728It is, it's just that it's compromised to the point that there's no thread safe from spam, bait or retarded tourists like OP
>>475715764Have it your way.
>>475715843Hey, I didn't choose to be "retarded."
>>475715707>everything is subjectiveThat's so deep bro, you killing yourself would objectively make me happy though. Doing it live on a stream would objectively make me cum too.
>>475715948Oh yeah? Is that a fetish?
>>475716001well everything subjective so who are you to call it a fetish?
>>475716058I asked, not called.
>>475716098if his opinion is that wanking to snuff porn is totally normal and not a fetish. then who are you to tell him otherwise? have it your way right? right its all subjective, it's all up in the air. is murder wrong, killing an innocent child maybe, who is to say, its all just subjective.say, if everything is subjective. then what are you reprogramming these criminals for? who are you to even call them criminals?
>>475715922You can always choose to shut the fuck up. I didn't choose to be born with a bad sounding voice, I choose not to subject people to my attempts at singing.
>>475716205I call them criminals so you can know who I'm referring to.
>>475716001Yeah, I get off to faggots dying.
>>475716273wow, it's almost like words have meaning. its almost like there are universal objective truths such as "murdering a 10 year old randomly for no reason is wrong"
>>475716368>inb4 yeah but Ack-tually
I know that 1 + 1 = 3.I think it's true, so it must be.There's nothing you can do to change that fact, hahahahaha.... everything's subjective, after all.You're just gonna have to accept that 1 + 1 = 4, sorry. Not sorry.Hahahaha.
