This nigga create the closest thing to the bugman/wageslave mind in the west and i am tired to pretend it's not true.
His hat looks stupid.
>nigga
>>483908281Calvinism is the only logically consistent version of Christianity
>>483908846based and tulip pilled.
>>483908281he gets a bad rap for his generous use of executing degenerates and usurers and heretics and other anti Christian types as governor but I suspect there's two sides to the story there. I wouldn't want to rush to judgement because he might've had some good reasons
>>483908281He made Christianity quite reasonable. Losing the mythicity (I guess that's a word). I'd say he correctly interpreted the Christian message, which is of course a slavish message.
>>483908281Elaborate for me. I tried going to church but the Calvinists were too intense.Didn't Jesus die for everyone who accepts him as savior? All this predestination stuff sounds like "I'm in the club and you aren't.."
>>483909466The word is "mysticism" Anon...
>>483909561>You're in the club because of course, God made you born to be in it. >If you fall off, God didn't want you in it anyways. In other words, you're in the community because deus vult. You're not in the community because deus vult. Deus vult. Because the community is clearly correct.
>>483909825Thanks for the elaboratism
>>483908281Calvin is where western society went FUBAR, retard
>>483909825i think he meant mythology
>>483908281
>>483910060Mythicality
>>483908846>CalvinismI disagree with their take of predestination in which man doesn't have agency. It's not like God "makes" you do things just because he already know what you're going to do. I think that's a misunderstanding of God's omniscience.
>>483908281Wokeness is just Calvinism minus God. You can’t prove me wrong.
>>483910504NTA but I agree with you. That is one of the sticking points with me.
>>483910504Yeah they believe God assigns a destiny to you. Which means that as a baby is conceived, God already assigns them to heaven or hell.
Protestants aren't Christianity
>>483910749it's egalitarianism from Christianity, a monastic religion>prove me wrong :^)
>>483910504>It's not like God "makes" you do things just because he already know what you're going to do.If he knows what I'm going to do then I'm not actually making any choice on my own. My choice was made for me before I even existed.
>>483910835Which if you take it to its logical conclusion means free will doesn't exist. How can Adam and Eve have disobeyed God if God determined what they were going to do? It's logically inconsistent.
>>483911174As someone who much better than most understands the philosophy and history, i agree. Protestantism is going back to the Bible, the religion before the ecumenical councils and council of laodicea. It's properly understood as a type of Messianic JudaismSouthernprotestant.com
>>483908281this true it be so
>>483911279Just because he can see the future doesn't mean he forces you to do something. If someone asks you "Choose red or blue", he has already seen your choice, but he didn't MAKE that choice for you. There's still that internal engine you are responsible for that is making that decision. He just isn't boxed into time the way you and I are.
>>483910504It's the logical conclusion of the premises that God is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. In that case there could be nothing outside God and nothing outside of God's knowledge, definitely including any capacity for free will you can exercise. The premises are mutually exclusive; if you are capable of doing something "freely," that means there's some part of the universe; no matter how small; which is outside of God, which contradicts omniscience/potence/presence. If God has those three things then everything must be essentially predestined since he knows all of it and could change any part of it, therefore there must be a deliberate decision made for every little thing, how it happens and how it fits together.What's very interesting, though, is that the strong logical consistency of Calvin's beliefs has not done anything to make them very popular. That suggests that Christians are concerned with something outside of the logical consistency of their truth-claims regarding God/Jesus/Holy Spook/etc. The problem is that religion is not about consistency, logic or evidence, it's about coping. Coping with the brutal nature of reality. And one of the best copes is this idea of an all-loving God who is sort of like a cosmic parent; he's powerful and he loves you. He'll let you do things on your own but he won't let anything too bad happen to you, there'll always be a dawn after the night. Even when the worst, death, comes for you, God will save you from that too. This is why we want all the omni- qualities for God, that way he can't possibly lose and so we can't possibly lose. But we want free will so we can still feel like we can go out and do things, take agency in our lives and in the world. So nobody likes Calvinism because he removes your sense of independence, your sense of agency. It's too much into the copes and not enough into the leeway for fun.What everyone wants is to go misbehave and then come running back to a church to make it better.
>>483911537I'm a proud protestant "heretic" who thinks scripture, love of god, love for my fellow man, and the holy spirit will be all I need to get into heaven.
>>483912018>If someone asks you "Choose red or blue", he has already seen your choice, but he didn't MAKE that choice for you.If he knows for example that I'll choose blue, then I literally have no option but to choose blue. From my individual POV it may feel as if I have "freely" made a choice, but the result of that illusionary free choice was determined before I even existed. That isn't free will. At best you can call it the illusion of it. >>483911486Because the authors from antiquity either didn't think it through enough or didn't care to.
>>483909561Calvinists are wrong and preach false gospel. They're almost like jews. God wants everyone to be saved and everyone can be but many reject Christ and live a life of sin and end up in hell. God does not will anyone to go to hell but he allows it. We all have free will. We are only saved by God's grace and ultimately its up to Him what happens after death Don't listen to Calvinists they lead people astray.
>>483912112Wrong. God gives us free will and he does allow bad things to happen to us like Job or the people driven to suicide by demons
>>483912880Can you explain why that anon is wrong and why you're right? Can you post scripture for this
>>483912112That's what made knowledge of good and evil such a profound thing to acquire. It made us "like God". Being able to be aware of good and evil is to have a choice in one action or another aka free will. It is sort of as you said, once they did that and became aware of shame, they introduced evil. They introduced the ability to disobey God. Now, you can say God himself allowed for them to have free will, and you are right. But AFTER they acquire it, they are responsible for it. The entirety of the bible is dealing with the consequences of free will/man's fall and being able to go against God. >>483912416You did make a choice though. If you are watching a tv show, the fact that you can fast forward and rewind doesn't mean the actions depicted in the show didn't happen. It's the same way God viewing the decisions you make. He's already fast forwarded to the end of time and determined the way everything shook out in this universe is to his liking. Now it's a matter of seeing who wants salvation and who doesn't.
>>483912670Why do many reject Christ? Why do they not see the errors of their ways? Why do they prefer evil over good? Why do they not realize the existence of the afterlife? Why do they prefer the pleasures of sin over the fruitful fulfillment of good?I want the root cause of your explanation, so go into detail as much as possible. For example, if they are mislead by the devil, how, why, if they don't want to be helped, why, what can we do, what can they do and why don't they do it etc.Didn't the bible talk about this? It should've been sent for the worst-case scenario after all, as God knows our weakness.
>>483913434-- to add, for US it's a matter of seeing who wants salvation and offering it to anyone we can. To God, he already knows who chose him, but he didn't "make them" choose him just as he doesn't "make" people reject him. We are all responsible for ourselves
>>483913434>You did make a choice thoughHow did I make a choice if my decision was predetermined before I even existed and there was no possibility for me to do otherwise?
>>483913723What your saying is that, if your choice was predetermined, it should have a cause, and if the cause of all things was determined before then how come we're responsible for it's consequences with the root cause being God?I find it difficult to understand as well. If someone denies salvation, that surely has reasons beyond our comprehension that can surely be traced back to the Creator assigning that person the perfect set of circumstances so that he could deny salvation?Or does God exceed all logic, after all a true free will, not one based on rng or mathematical models approximating true unbiased randomness in computers is difficult to create no? It is beyond our comprehension how the one that could create it also views it. Maybe the concept of free will is simply 3d and He is 4d? Like, how can He that created free will not be above it, but then how can it be free, maybe that is the distinction between God and man? So vague.
>>483913566"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.">>483913723It wasn't predetermined before you existed, it is determined moment by moment as you make your decisions. Again, you think because God exists outside of the process of time and causality, that means no one is actually making decisions, no one is doing anything, because there's something greater that has seen it all. He has seen it all because he exists outside of time. You do not exist outside of time. So, when you make a decision, that decision is made in that moment of time. If God wants to look at that moment in time, he will see you making a decision, but he is not controlling you like a puppet. Think of it like this, WHY would God do that? Why would he control all of his creation like puppets but then instill in them an ILLUSION of free will? So they can feel shame and guilt for actions that are beyond their control? Does that seem logical to you?
>>483913566They reject Him because they don't like what He had to said and they don't believe in Him. Some are ignorant and manage to follow natural law and live okay lives (don't lie, don't steal, don't murder, not homosexuals, etc) and those people too despite no one telling them about Christ can be saved if God wills it. It's not likely but it could happen. Society promotes sin and error. They can look at scripture and look at the modern world. Scripture tells them they're wrong but the world says they're right. People like sin because it feels good. It feels good to get drunk and do cocaine and have sex with whores but ultimately it's sinful behavior. Pleasure feels good. Some people think hedonism is justified, aside from Christianity, this has been discussed by philosophers. Whether to live a life of virtue or one focused on pleasure. We can spread the gospel and talk to them but no one can be forced to accept truth. They either want to or not to. Sometimes God guides them to the truth. We have scripture and tradition. Not everything is covered in the Bible and it even says if everything Jesus said was recorded it would be too much for one person to read. Communism isn't mentioned in the Bible but it doesn't mean that Christians can't apply Christian values to inform their opinion of it and discuss with other Christians. Christians should oppose communism.
>>483913566>HowDo you want to know the exact mechanics of how this works? The devil can manipulate our imagination and suggest things. Sometimes the devil or his demons intervene more directly in our lives. The devil is the prince of this world.>Why And God allows us to be afflicted. It is for our own sanctification. To drive us towards Him. It is also the consequence of original sin.
>>483914148What then predisposes one to bad deeds? If we understood everything about humans, we should be able to predict with 100% accuracy what a persons next move is going to be, and if that is on a wrong path, then how is that not being predestined to hell? Like, if God knows all our actions, there must be a certain way of knowing it, and if that is there doesn't it make everything predetermined?Then free will would be nothing more than God elevating you above your fate, but wouldn't you turning to God besides your fate also not be fate?>>483914421Like wouldn't the devil affecting you and you turning to God also be predetermined? Or is there a way to improve your fate through God? Let me make it simple: How does God's omniscience relate to fate? Like how does God know our fates, that means there is a certain reason for everything, right? Shouldn't free will be unpredictable? Or am I degrading God to the level of man?
>>483913298I can't quote you an exact verse I don't have the Bible memorized. God gave us freewill and he allows us to be afflicted. Demonic activity is historically documented for millenia across the world and even amongst non Christian populations. It is a fact of reality. Humans used to live in paradise and then we fell into a world of death and suffering. God is just. Satan and his demons were also cast down to earth. The God of the calvinists is not God. No one is predestined to damnation from the womb. It's not true. You don't have to be catholic or orthodox to know this is heresy. It turns people away from Christ. It's not good
I am a Gnostic because the idea that there is a duality to existance and that matter is the realm of Satan makes perfect sense to me and seems to answer a lot of questions.But that's going off reading Manly P Hall15 years ago as a young stoner.
>>483914148>It wasn't predetermined before you existed, it is determined moment by momentThis is impossible because it would directly contradict his omniscience by implying that he isn't aware of a person's decisions before they're made. You can't have it both ways. God either fully knows every decision a person will make before they exist, meaning their "choices" aren't really choices at all (predestination and foreknowledge are the same thing to an omnipotent being) or he doesn't, which contradicts his omniscience. >So they can feel shame and guilt for actions that are beyond their control? Does that seem logical to you?No, which is why I am not a Christian lol
>>483914868Actually >>483912112 summed it up in the first paragraph better than I did and I didn't see his post until now
>>483908281BasedCalvinism is basically what Jesus was warning against when be said you can't serve God and Mammon. Mammon is materialism, and Calvinism and its offshoots are all guilty of it.
>>483914641I believe God can see the future and know what the future is but the future is also mutable and changes based on people's actions. Some things are fixed like Christ's ultimate victory. Different futures appear and dissappear based on different actions on the individual level which scales. God sees all of this. Our actions do have an impact. This is seen through the 10 commandments and when God punishes the israelites for turning to baal and away from Him. Following Christ isn't just about what you do and believe, it's also about what you Don't do. Old and new testament are clear about what God abhors and what is forbidden. Some things carried from the old covenant to the new , like the 10 commandmentsIt can become predetermined based on one's actions. Like explicitly serving the devil or reaching to satan. If someone does witchcraft its almost guaranteed that the devil or his demons will be in their life. God says not to do any sort of magic.Even good Christians can be afflicted , the devil tries to break our faith but ultimately this just strengthens our resolve Jesus Christ is the way and the truth
>>483913434The question isn't whether a choice is made, it's whether that choice is "free." If God made all sides of the board and all the pieces on the board, including every atom in your body, in what sense is your choice "free" of his will? There would have to be something about you that is outside of God, which would be a limit to the omni-s.
>>483914780Be an actual Christian. God is the creator of everything, Satan is the prince of this world and wields power here. Christ also wields power here.
>>483914868Or I do have a theory:Just like how God created man. Why did God create man? We don't know. For man, it was about worshipping God, but what need did God have for it or why he desired it, we don't know.In that same vein, we don't know how God knows what we will do and how it matters to him whether we have free will or not. In the end, if we could perceive Him, we would surely worship Him alone, but a part of faith is in being able to perceive Him when He is hidden. So He knows how things will turn out, but let's us play it out, just like how a parent cares for a child. The "freedom" then is that we can perform deeds that have negative consequences for us, while our parents would have prevented us from playing with fire because they foresaw the consequences.At the end I think the question is why God created us, and why he did so with free will, why that mattered to him at all. Understanding how God acts, or how he knows, or how he understands is beyond humans. That's basically asking why God exists, it's explaining the root cause.So our free will is just a perfect random number generator, of which He knows the sequence anyway because He is above reason.>>483915556What if it is not so much that it is outside the scope of God, but that a part of God is inside of us? Or a way to communicate with him? Or that everyone is already doing so to a degree, but doing it consciously, effectively is what sets you truly apart in faith?
>>483908281Determinism leads to fatalism which leads to totalitarianism. >>483908846If you take Calvinism to its logical conclusion it ends up leading to Nestorianism because Calvinists make the mistake of separating Christ's divine and human natures combined with the absence of free will, and so then they argue Jesus had to be damned by the Father in order for humanity to be saved; effectively rejecting Christ's divinity. The "Reformed" traditions are nonsensical because they over appeal to human reason (which is inherently faulty and limited) rather than appealing to mystery. A human being cannot comprehend the mind of God, and to suggest such is spiritual prelest.
>>483916057God created us to glorify Him and praise Him. Maybe other reasons besides that, but He loves us. Does it even matter to know exactly why? All the reasons? Does that change anything? We exist and that is a miracle. God gave us a world to inhabit and He loves us so much He chose to incarnate in human form. This disgusted some angels and they rebelled and were cast out. God is real. Jesus Christ is real. The Holy Spirit is real. Have faith. Read the Bible pray. Don't look to calvinists , many protestants preach false gospel and their churches are synagogues of satan >>483916589Thanks fren. God bless
>>483916589>appealing to mystery>it doesnt make sense but just trust me broI guess possible like anything else, but can you really blame people for feeling like this is cope?
>>483917177No, but I found it easier to accept God than Christ. It's obvious to me that there is a creator and a spiritual reality. Too much weird stuff happens here that doesn't really add up it's not a random chance meaningless reality . God is the creator of all and Jesus Christ is God incarnate
>>483917177God is transcendent, humanity is finite. Appealing to the human mind is irrelevant because human beings ultimately are not rational creatures. It doesn't matter if an idea "makes sense" to someone if it's ultimately untrue. The idea of atoms being an existent property of reality is a conceptualization that "makes sense" to many human beings, but it doesn't change the fact that the idea of atoms is not accurate to how reality functions. If your primary concern is in appeals to the mind rather than adherence to objectivity then such conceptualizations will very quickly devolve into relativism and ultimately nonsense.
>>483917636>Too much weird stuff happens here that doesn't really add up it's not a random chance meaningless reality .Compared to where? Have you been to some other counter-example universe that isn't like this one?
>>483918129No but the explanations offered by science are not sufficient. They don't explain everything. You sound like you don't have faith in God and Jesus Christ
>>483917874>God is transcendent, humanity is finitethings that aren't finite do not exist. You are promoting atheism.The Apostle Paul wrote about how it was good for people in the congregations he ministered to have sound minds.
>>483918518>things that aren't finite do not exist.You're arguing that God isn't infinite and then claiming I'm promoting atheism when in reality that is what you are doing. You are claiming God himself doesn't exist simply because you cannot conceive of an infinite being. Over-appeal to the human mind is ultimately what proves Calvinism to be complete bullshit because human reason is deceptive, limited, and faulty. It does not matter whether or not you can comprehend God because you can never possess the mind of God.
>>483918761>>483918518God is by definition , eternal and infinite . God is completely incomprehensible by humans and ineffable. Through His incarnation we can conceive of Him in a more intelligible way to humans
>>483918761They lack faith and they deny God. Sad to see
>>483918518>“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you know so much. Who determined its dimensions and stretched out the surveying line? What supports its foundations, and who laid its cornerstone as the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?>Job: 38:4-11 - NLTIf you claim to be a follower of God then your priority is in submitting yourself to God regardless of your understanding rather than building heresy. It is not up to you to determine how God works, it is up to God to determine how God works.
>>483919122Great verse, thanks fren. God bless
>>483908281John ((Calvin))
