The punishment for debt/ interest banking should be public execution.Lending more money than you actually have is counterfeiting, pretending to give than money to someone is fraud, charging interest on a loan that you never paid with money that never existed should be punishable by beheading
>>489051117I agree
>>489051117The difference between real wealth (consumables such as buildings, equipment, energy, food) and virtual wealth, in the form of debt is that real wealth is subject to entropy and will rot, rust, wear out, or be consumed over time, while debt is just an artificial accounting device subject only to the laws of mathematics, not the laws of thermodynamics. Debt compounding at some rate of interest will grow effortlessly over time and without limit, instead of diminishing with use as real wealth does. An economy based on long-term compound interest must eventually fail due to the physical and mathematical impossibility of long-term exponential growth on a finite planet.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth,_Virtual_Wealth_and_Debt
>>489051117Technically banks are not lending money at all. They are just creating numbers inside computers which they own. They have every right to put whatever numbers they want into their own computers. Instead of restricting a company can do with their own computers, instead the legitimacy of these numbers must be eroded. Firstly, no bank bailouts, if a bank fails then everyone looses their deposits. Secondly central bank accounts should be made available for everyone. The numbers in the private banks computers would loose their value if people had an alternative choice that could never go bust.
>>489051117Well if you notice, back when debtors prisons were still a thing usury wasn't thing like it is today where everyone but me and a bunch of spoiled trust fund babies like you guys are al deeply in debt over stupid shit they didn't even need in the first place anyway. A person in debt is really no better than a child molester when you look at their matching mental processes.
>>489052352this is probably the one book I've ever wanted to read posted here. while I intrinsically understand this, this is a cut above the way I would phrase it.
>>489051117hey buddyjust COOL IT with the anti-semitism already
>>489052991This process is perfectly fine if done by a nationalist state. It was no different in National Socialist Germany.
>>489052991/r/antiwork gobbledygook
>>489054268No, he's 100% correcthttps://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1057521914001070Banks don't take money that exist in some vault or account and lend them out to you (even fractionally). They just change the stored number in a database to whatever amount they loan you.
>>489054268How anon described banking is factually correct.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EC0G7pY4wRE
>>489054948Based Werner poster.
>>489052352Very interesting thanks anon. Are you familiar with Richard Werner's work?
>>489055014Also good to see anons who know about this. Any other books/papers/resources you recommend?
>>489054215>it's perfectly fine to create money out of thin air Nuke yourself faggot
Outlaw usury just like every sane nation did. It's forbidden in the Bible as well as other holy books. Pretty sure every religion is against it.
>>489055334Only gold and silver are money everything else is credit.
>>489055220Yes. A sovereign currency controlled by a nationalist state is necessary. Precious metals can be used to back international currencies to settle transactions.
>>489055421Gold and silver historically have been monopolized by the most powerful states of the time and more recently, kike bankers. A nation that doesn't control its money supply isn't sovereign.
U have choose wisely
>>489055421>>489055452>>489055604Precious metals actually won't work. You can't reflect an economy of every growing value with a fixed quantity of value.
>>489051117Yeah i never got that either. Like how is it “safe” and legal for banks to have 4:1 leverage? You literally just made 3 lies and one loan
>>489055803True. We need to go back to using shells as currency
>>489055957Same problem. Shells are finite and have intrinsic value.
>>489055803PMs aren't optimal, but it's not because of that. America industrialized rapidly during multiple decades of deflation.
>>489055840It's worse than that; they actually made 4 lies and one loan. Banks can have $0 in assets and still loan out an arbitrarily large amount of money. See Werner's paper ITT.
>>489056155It's not that they aren't optimal, it's that they can't work. Again you cannot use something that is finite and has intrinsic value to represent an ever increasing pool of value. You will always run into a liquidity/credit shortage.
>>489056384In this hypothetical, the value of the money supply will increase or decrease based productivity. It's not that relevant because credit has always existed on top of whatever the base money is.
>>489056944Credit has to be paid back in real money eventually though, since all that credit has interest attached to it. Otherwise you just have the current system of infinite debt to pay off more debt. Eventually you'll have (as all PM based economies have had, if they didn't encounter some other crisis first) a liquidity crisis.
>>489057795Interest creates deflationary pressures, with or without credit. This is another reason why the state needs to be involved in lending, as the state can cancel debts to alleviate this problem.
>>489058691How does interest create deflationary pressure?
>>489051117Agreed, maybe next time try to not elect some billionaire who received $100,000,000 donations from banker jews.
>>489058887Money enters circulation through loans and leaves circulation when loans are paid back. More money is owed back to the creditor than was lent in the first place. The compounding of interest given enough time creates deflationary pressures that can have massive consequences.
>>489060055Ah I follow what you are saying. This problem is resolved through debt-free money instead of credit money.
>>489062050Debt-free money has the opposite problem of inflation. The only way to get money into circulation without causing significant inflation or deflation is through productivity. That's why public banks with low interest for productive purposes is ideal.
>>489052991>The numbers in the private banks computers would loose their value if people had an alternative choice that could never go bust.
>>489063042So Hitler's ideas about a labor-backed currency are sound
>>489052352>Debt compounding at some rate of interest will grow effortlessly over time and without limit, instead of diminishing with use as real wealth does.>the person to whom the debt is owed is shot in the headYour response?
>>489051117>Credit has to be paid back in real money eventually though, since all that credit has interest attached to it. Otherwise you just have the current system of infinite debt to pay off more debt. Eventually you'll have (as all PM based economies have had, if they didn't encounter some other crisis first) a liquidity crisis.One way of looking at this is that lending out money you don't actually have and then enforcing them to pay back interest is actually allowing people to borrow from their future, or turn hope into reality.The only issue is this 'service' seems to be provided by banks which profit for seemingly doing nothing except moving numbers around in a big ledger.And they profit way more than they should for the service they provide in the age of computers.
>>489063042Not quite. Technology has a naturally compounding effect on efficiency, so UBI/national dividend disbursements fix the liquidity injection problem. Look into C.H. Douglas and Social Credit. The book I posted here >>489055803 is about that.
>>489063675Yes, which was based directly off of Gottfried Feder's ideas. It's not so much labor-backed than production-backed, but the latter doesn't have the same ring to it.
>>489051117>The punishment for debt/ interest banking should be public execution.>Lending more money than you actually have is counterfeiting, pretending to give than money to someone is fraud, charging interest on a loan that you never paid with money that never existed should be punishable by beheadingAgree. Have a bu,p
>>489054215>It was no different in National Socialist Germany.WRONG. They used physical silver coins.
>>489052991>Technically banks are not lending money at all. They are just creating numbers inside computers which they own.Correct. >They have every right to put whatever numbers they want into their own computers.No, this is called currency counterfeiting .Should be punishable by public executions and hangings of the bankers from poles.
>>489065322
>>489064628The mechanism is the problem. You can't fix the problem without changing the mechanism. Money that is created and used unproductively creates inflation. UBI will create massive inflation because the vast majority of people will use the money unproductively.
>>489065628Again look into social credit which pegs money creation to productivity.
>>489065322Multiple forms of money were used including bank credit and silver, as it was in every economy in the world. The difference was the benevolent regulations applied to the financial system by the state.
>>489051117Compelling argument
>>489065766I'm familiar with social credit, but I was responding to UBI which you brought up.
Whatever happened to Yang's twitter post about a bank that keeps 100% of its deposits on hand? Did he get called anti-Semitic?
>>489066273>a bank that keeps 100% of its deposits on handThis is called full-reserve banking. The reason why it isn't done is because it's inefficient.
>>489060055In theory you are right, but in practice isn't credit still inflationary? If you create a new debt, you are essentially adding to the monetary supply without guaranteeing an equivalent increase in value, so credit will inevitably lead to the necessity to paying it off with further credit and eventually you will get an exponential debt crisis. I suppose you could say that this wouldn't occur if the only loans that were written were for economic activities that would create more value than would be paid back, but then you would still run into the inevitability that the economy still expands the more debt it has, and thus investments would flow into debt (i.e. financialization) and restrictions to good loans would give way in favor of maximizing the amount of debt that's created, good or bad.Am I completely off base here?
ITS SIMPLE.WE KILL THE BAT MAN.
>>489066925Inefficient maybe, but very resilient, why doesn't that count for anything hm? The system always finds ways to gamble when it gets too much money in one spot.
>>489066971You're correct and that's the conclusion this book comes to. Credit between businesses which results in increased productive activity can be safely done because more wealth is actually created after which can re-anchor the debt to something real. But credit to individuals who are just trying to make purchases to maintain their life are fundamentally not payable and inevitably lead to pauperization and the confiscation of all assets by wealthy lenders, who monopolize all opportunities for economic activity, lead to stagnation and are ultimately only dethroned by men with weapons murdering them and burning the ledgers.In ancient Mesopotamia, the rulers would occasionally proclaim debt jubilees not only canceling all private/"consumer" debts but also returning all confiscated/foreclosed/repossessed land to the farmers it had been taken from. Usury was allowed, but all its negative effects were undone every so many years.
>>489066971Credit is inflationary if used unproductively and deflationary if used productively. There are multiple historical examples of banking systems that were regulated to prevent credit from being used unproductively and resulted in high growth with little inflation, or even deflation in the more tightly regulated systems.
>>489067910Interesting, thanks for the good response. The Old Testament mentions a debt jubilee as well of course, but it never once occurred. Wonder why God then smited Israel so hard haha
>>489067425The financial system in isolation could be more resilient, at the expense of the rest of the economy. Full-reserve means exponentially less money for businesses, which has greater consequences than a less resilient financial system.
>>489068149>Credit is inflationary if used unproductively and deflationary if used productively.Succinctly put, thanks>There are multiple historical examples of banking systems that were regulated to prevent credit from being used unproductively and resulted in high growth with little inflation, or even deflation in the more tightly regulated systems.Is this more because of a non-fiat money supply than from the lending practices themselves, though? As long as you have some kind of sound money supply, it seems like inflationary lending is a lot harder because it's baked into the system that unproductive lending will not survive. I mention this just because it seems like the primary objective is to fix our money supply (which means moving away from a credit-based system), and then sounder lending policies will naturally follow.
>>489068710>Is this more because of a non-fiat money supply than from the lending practices themselves, though? The problem is primarily the lending practices, not the form of money used, although inflation can be exacerbated by credit, and deflation can be exacerbated by deflation. >moving away from a credit-based systemThat would be a mistake, as the problem isn't rooted in the form of money, but lending practices and private monopolization of banking.
>>489069733>deflation can be exacerbated by stable money/PMs*Typo
>>489070539How can stable money/PMs exacerbate deflation if their quantity is increasing at a very low rate, so their quantity is not deflating?
>>489072059Deflation of all kinds is worse the more restricted the money supply is. For instance, some of the worst economic crises in American history happened in the 19th century and were deflationary. The panic of 1837 is a good example of this. >The ailing economy of early 1837 led investors to panic, and a bank run ensued, giving the crisis its name. The bank run came to a head on May 10, 1837, when banks in New York City ran out of gold and silver. They immediately suspended specie payments, and would no longer redeem commercial paper in specie at full face value. A significant economic collapse followed: despite a brief recovery in 1838, the recession persisted for nearly seven years. Over 40% of all banks failed, businesses closed, prices declined, and there was mass unemployment. From 1837 to 1844, deflation in wages and prices was widespread.
I heard op has been comitting usury. Get him! Hes a 1pbtid chinese jewish nigger jew poojeet
>>489072989Less than 1% a year inflation when there was an empire expending effort to flood the world with gold and silver. The expansion of the money supply brought prosperity from the new purchasing power available.
>>489073970Those numbers are false. Inflation was massive throughout Europe during this time. Stephen Zarlenga documents this in detail in his book "The Lost Science of Money".
>>489073609Sorry had to mulch some real estate agents
>>489066273Deposit banks still exist, but a strange problem of actually having the money you claim to is that people try to rob you. Nobody would rob their local bank branch, because despite claiming to have millions in deposits the bank only has like 50k.
This notion that banks lending money stimulates economic development is again, constantly repeated, but let's examine that. Money is not a resource, it's a transaction medium. You can't build a house without bricks, printing more money doesn't create more bricks, shifting monetary supply, debasing the currency, buying up all the bricks before people realise the money is worthless, this does work. But it doesn't produce more bricks. And Americans will cry about "supply and demand" but this phrase is meaningless. The physical supply of bricks requires input resources, not money. Bricks cannot be made of money. The demand for bricks is actually fucked up by debt money, because inflation pushes genuine buyers into poverty. Sheckleberg Goldstein prints money, snatches the bricks, puts them in a vault, has no actual use for the bricks. The builders real money is now worthless, most bricks are gone. Productive demand and speculative demand are opposing forces. And the cherry picked examples of where increasing monetary supply boosted the economy, all a hoax. Migrants used to bring resources with them, generated value in primary industry, it was not "new capitol" it was gold some Chinese guy dug up with a bucket, which required no capitol input at all. Hitler's economic policy was not really increasing monetary supply, and that was a very unusual situation I'd rather not derail the thread with.
>>489065766We can finally catch up to China and have our own social credit scores.
>>489076270>The physical supply of bricks requires input resources, not money. Bricks cannot be made of money. The physical supply of bricks depends on businesses who produce the bricks, and those businesses require money to do so. >The demand for bricks is actually fucked up by debt money, because inflation pushes genuine buyers into poverty. Creating money isn't inflationary if used for productive purposes, such as funding a brick business.
>>489056014So we establish shellfish breeding farms as needed to coin new money
>>489078636Begone Jewish metal shill
The jew fears a system that uses real money. Usury SHOULD be punishable by death. Real money prevents judaism. Digital tokens enable kikes
>>489051117We're literally paying to build kike apartment complexes and every other predatory kike investment through inflation. Everything they have was stolen from the rest of society.
Thr jews' power stems from being the main counterfeiter of the us dollar (which is a unit weight of silver). They printed it on paper first and now its digital, which fuels their debt kike banking
>>489051117>charging interest on a loan that you never paid with money that never existed should be punishable by beheadingYes.It is an abomination.
