I'm a zoomer. I am aware there's always been a debate about who/what was responsible for the ratings drop in the early 2000s. But do you think people were too harsh on Triple H?If Triple H was never the guy to carry RAW at the time, who would have been the better option instead? Or was it just him hogging that position since Austin and Rock were gone?And was he a good heel?Just curious what your thoughts are on him at that time.
>>16343943Thing is guys who theoretically could have really done something were cut off at the knees every time by Haitch til fucking Batista won the Rumble 4 years later, so we don't have a great idea of who else would have been good in the spit
>>16343960In the spot lol
>>16343943the ratings dropped because Rock and Austin left, and Trips was the only guy on the roster at that time anywhere close to being a main eventer + Vince knew HHH will never leave the company so investing into him is worthwhile, company's fault for not building more stars before their 2 biggest ones left
It was justified because he did make Batista and despite what the internet would tell you, guys like RVD/Kane/Booker weren't going to be on that level ever. Batista and Orton were the options.
>>16343943people cried about Cena too but he was pretty much the only top guy there and he was stale just cuz he was working every week, almost never injured, while fucking cocksuckers now work for 3 months and take the rest of the year off. I wasn't watching during Gaytch's reign but usually guys like that get pushed down your throats because they're reliable and keep things at least steady, maybe the decline would have been far worse with someone else on top
Ratings were already dropping heavily in 2001 onwards even while Triple H was injured. Wrestling had already peaked in 1999-2000 and it was only downhill from there. There was no more monday night war to increase the excitement of wrestling as a whole. The "reign of terror" is vastly exaggerated, his one true bad year was 2003 where he was injured + beating everybody the same way (evolution interferes) and his match quality was bad against over the hill people like Steiner or one trick pony Goldberg. 2004 and 2005 were much better in terms of match quality and stories.
>>16344123> guys like RVD/Kane/Booker weren't going to be on that level everWhy?
>>16344123Only one i'd disagree with is Booker. The entire rest of wrestlers that the smarks have cried for decades claiming they got "buried" or "not pushed" enough were absolutely dreadful at promos like Benoit and RVD. They weren't heavyweight championship material.
>>16344157If Jeff Hardy was trusted enough to be champion when he was even worse at cutting promos there is no reason RVD shouldn't have been champion when he was the most over wrestlers for years.
>>16344157>theyuhhh can'tuhhhh give a 30 minute promo to open the showuhhhhneck yourself nigger you swallowed the kool-aid and asked for more
>>16344223RVD couldn't even go for 30 seconds cutting a promo.>>16344210The thing is RVD was entrusted to be a champion in 2006. He fumbled it by getting into legal trouble like a retarded teenager at age 36 while holding the most prestigious belt. Proved himself to be untrustworthy and its cases like this why Cena was entrusted to be the main man of WWE for so many years, he was squeaky clean and talented. Jeff Hardy also crashed spectacularly even after being pushed so heavily by WWE.
>>16344156Because they were B+ players and we have years of evidence without HHH involved to know that
We saw what would happen if HHH did lose and it was just the mid Benoit reign.
>>16344362RVD's drug use has nothing to do with his promo ability. It shows they did see enough in him to eventually try him as champion, they just didn't do it while HHH was around like everyone around that era who was wasted.
>>16344419>they just didn't do it while HHH was aroundwhat? He was there on every show RVD was on while champ
>>16344439Yea, dressing up doing his stupid DX shit you blithering retard.
>>16344380Where to find this evidence?
>>16344464so he was there then glad you agree
Haircut was never able to live up to Austin and Dwayne, and this fact haunts him to this very day.
>>16344464He is making shit up, you can look in youtube the huge pops kane got against triple jew, people wanted him to be the the champ, and akne wasnt a B player until his mask was remove
>>16344123>>16344157Kane in 02/03 in the shape of his life looking like a jacked fucking monster and finally showing some real personality on the stick and in pre-tapes had him mega fucking over, seriously they had lightning in a bottle and they came up with Katie Vick
>>16344123RVD and Booker absolutely could have had short runs and they could have eventually put the title back on trips by having Batista cheat for him or having them in some sort of triple threat where he's made to give HHH the win and that sets up their feud. RVD was insanely over at this time.
who are the more forgotten reign of terror victims?i know haitch killed eugene's heat by feuding with himprolly a higher ceiling than anyone ever expected for that character though
>>16344683Big Poppa Pump
>>16344729posedown segment is legendary vince homolust projection
>>16344123>OrtonThe guy gaitch buried despite being over as fuck? And then buried again after they spent five fucking years building him back up?
>>16344917Brainlet take. Him and Batista were complete unknowns in 2002, being in Evolution made them known and over. He had an excellent run as the legend killer and feuds vs Carder/Mysterio/Angle. Orton was a dimeless fuck in 2009.
>>16345415nta but he's referring to when Evolution turned on Orton and he had his dogshit babyface run where he only got the belt so Brock wouldn't be the youngest champ ever (he'd just left on bad terms and they were in a legal battle with him)everything before that though yeah Orton was really well built up by being part of Evolution
Jericho, RVD, Kane, Booker T, Goldberg and Orton were the biggest victims of Haitch's reign of terror. RVD, Kane, and Booker could all have absolutely gotten short reigns and RVD off the heels of being the only over guy in the Invasion probably should have. Booker was also white hot going in to WM19 and could have had a small reign until BacklashOrton and Goldberg got reigns but looked like absolute fucking idiots and just dropped the belts right back to Trips after some awful bookingJericho was fucked being a non Evolution heel on RAW and should have been kept on Smackdown
>>16344683>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hImofL_MgWcWilliam Regal was buried in the same Eugene program.
>It was justified because he did make Batista and despite what the internet would tell you, guys like RVD/Kane/Booker weren't going to be on that level ever. Batista and Orton were the options.
>>16343943My older brothers who bought all the toys and rented PPV VHS's stopped after Austin and Rock left, so my knowledge of wrestling ends there. Take that for what you will
>>16343986>Trips was the only guy on the roster at that time anywhere close to being a main eventerUndertaker, Kurt Angle, Brock Lesnar, Shawn Michaels, Booker T, Chris Jericho, Kane, RVDCan't wait to hear your retarded reasoning behind why you think those guys weren't capable of being in the main event long enough to keep building guys like Orton, Batista, Cena, Edge, Benoit, Eddie etc.
>>16343943At the time, H was primely hateable for multiple reasons. He was still the guy who (by 2009) openly admitted he slept with Steph, married her, and people can already put two and two together by how often H was ALWAYS in a belt feud, or given large screen time, or main evented PPVs and Mania. Surely that would be bad, but as long as he was ENJOYABLE, it'd be fine, right? Well he wasn't. H was, 99% of the time, a complete charisma vaccuum. If you have even an ounce of analysis on behaviors, you can tell he is obviously a guy who WANTS to be liked, even as a heel. He's the markiest mark in the business. If he's a face, he wants to be the one with the witty zingers, if he's a heel, he wants to be the last word. And the majority of the time they were so eyerollingly boring that people got sick of it and developed go away heat. The only other issue is that he was, at times, also genuinely good at putting on matches and sometimes being a good heel. So it was like a toxic relationship. But let this speak for you: at the Mania where he was facing Booker (face), every single match was won by a face except for Booker's. This was especially stinging when the feud already had underlying racist tones from H. >>16344123This guy is fill of shit. Don't listen to him. >>16344917Admittedly Orton buried himself by being an asshole backstage, that's the real reason he lost his first belt so early on. >>16345415>2009I'm watching 09 right now and this is objectively NOT true. Orton has some of his best matches and mic work in here so far. There's some shitty booking around October where they play hot potato with the titles with Cena for some reason, and Cena is soul suckingly annoying and gives the exact same kind of promos EVERY TIME.
>>16346373ummmmm paul was the top guy cause uhhhhhhh he was kinda like austin but ummmmmm with hair or something and uhhhhhhhhh yeah. also, he was an obvious nepobaby, which the fans also love. so yes, he was the only draw, nobody could have carried the company the way he did. bow down to the king
>>16343943The WWE would have kept hemorrhaging their audience at that pointless regardless of who was on top. Ignoring the obvious reason of no competition making WWE complacent, wrestling at its peaks has always been a flash in the pan cultural phenomenon followed by nose dive. Eventually they start losing the audience that was only watching wrestling because everyone else was. Then the shows start getting less attendance. Then people going to half empty shows start to think "there's no one here, why the fuck am I?" Ruthless Aggression was to the Attitude Era what the New Generation was to the Golden Era and it's pretty much inevitable whenever there's a sudden, unavoidable changing of the guard.
>>16343943Having two separate shows with separate, segregated rosters was the stupidest fucking idea. And then they split up the world championship into two different titles, one for Raw and one for Smackdown. Vince acted like such a retard after all of competition was gone.
>>16343943>Was Triple H's 'reign of terror' with Evolution really that dimeless?Not really. It was nothing compared to the bullshit ones he's booking today and over the past few years. More to the point the fact alone that it made Batista is enough for it to not only not be dimeless but instead be megadimes
>>16346542The one benefit was how different the tone of the two shows was. RAW was more of the trash TV people were used to while Smackdown! focused more on the wrestling. One had Eric Bischoff on creative and one had Paul Heyman and boy, was it obvious.
>>16345789Jesus fucking christ, just name the entire RAW roster and the divas while you're at it. Do you really find peace thinking every single one is a victim. They had multiple years at different brands to do their thing and get over / win multiple championships. Maybe they just weren't good enough
>>16344157Yeah, because guy who's a cut above most of the roster technically but can't cut a promo to save his life would never work
>>16346752Bret had charisma.
ONE SELFIS THIS ON?
Since the WWF roster was so shallow right when he began to take off, Stone Cold had to simultaneously develop his character and find a way to get over while working with the likes of Savio Vega, Marc Mero, and a washed up Jake Roberts. He had to feud with a wheelchair-bound Brian Pillman at one point because there weren't any other viable options on the roster. But his success sky-rocketed when he was able to develop a deep and very well executed program with Bret Hart. The principle of 'iron sharpens iron' holds good in pro wrestling: in order to become one of the best performers in the business, you need to work with and learn from those who have already done it.Once he was the biggest star in wrestling, Stone Cold needed more names than just Undertaker and a non-wrestler like Vince keep his success rolling. Without typing a thousand replies to my own post, there's plenty of evidence that Austin worked closely with the Rock to ensure he'd have another legitimate top guy to work with. We know that Austin and Rock both worked to elevate Kurt Angle, and the Rock did the same for Brock Lesnar. I don't mean they simply jobbed to them, they helped develop them into main event caliber talent.HHH didn't do any of this. He probably couldn't either, since he wasn't that good in his own right. I don't think he's a complete shitter. He's a legitimate WWE main eventer (unlike Edge, Miz, or Sheamus), but not a great one. He politicked, cut scripted 16 minute promos without stuttering to open RAW each week, worked feuds with guys who couldn't effortlessly outshine him, and finished each feud with the same formulaic and unremarkable PPV payoff match ("By gawd, that's a sledgehammer!"). In short: HHH is nowhere near as good as Austin or Rock, and he was too dense, selfish, and inept to elevate himself by elevating others. The RAW brand suffered because of it.
>>16346687>Maybe the entire rest of the main event scene just wasn't good enough
>>16346687that's like 6 people over 3 or 4 years
>>16344605dimes look
It will never fail to surprise me how many people on an autistic wrestling board do not understand wrestling.>HHH booked himself as the top guy!Vince was the booker. And HHH was barely ever a top guy >But he was the champion!Your champion shouldn't be your top guy. The person chasing your champion is the top guy who the company wants to build around. The money is in the chase, not the result. >But babyface championsOutside Hogan and Cena, two people with ludicrous charisma, long term babyface champions have never drawn in the history of professional wrestling in the US>StingAlmost killed WCW in the surfer era, he drew that poorly and he was never a long term champion.>CodyIsn't the top guy, he's holding the belt while coconut theater, which is actually the focus of the show, plays out.Let's say HHH drops the belt to RVD. Then what? Whats the next year or programming look like? You have a roster of likeable babyfaces with the RVDs and Bookers of the world, they needed a heel champion to chase. HHH was a safe and legitimate option>Yeah but he suckedYeah he was a heel, you weren't supposed to like him>Go away heat with me brother No he didn't because you didn't stop watching
>>16347263> Outside Hogan and Cena, two people with ludicrous charisma, long term babyface champions have never drawn in the history of professional wrestling in the US> inb4 doesn’t count because old or some other goal post move
>>16347298Haha, I've actually just clicked back on the thread to write "actually I forgot about Bruno. Bruno was a huge draw" but you beat me to it.>AustinNever long term and the draw was the chase vs McMahn, not him as champ. When he did eventually have a long reign without feuding with McMahon, ratings and revenues crumbled
>>16347263>So, in conclusion dum dums, Damien Priest is the hottest act in wrestling and the top guy in the WWE right now. Sure he isn't generating that much revenue for the company, but he is a babyface chasing a heel champion, so the most qualified wrestling experts will have no trouble recognizing that he's basically Austin circa 1999.Alright kid
>>16347344They crumbled because they booked him as a heel, you fucking idiot. How can you stand atop a horse made of paper and pretend like you know what you're talkinf about?
>>16347422>An entire company fell apart because of a heel turn.If you actually believe this then you're an edrone who gets their history from the WWE Network
>>16347416>Reads post answering this exact point>Makes point anywayBased retard
>>16344392followed by mid Orton reign lmao, i hated Trips dominance over the WCW gold but these guys that are over with the fans are either unreliable or uncapable.Though, I believe that Booker T and Kane could've had a solid reign if they were the belt during their prime.
>>16347563Entire companies have fallen apart completely for less. Remember the Fingerpoke of Doom? Retard.
>>16347686you mean when 14 - 21 negroes each stuck a finger in kevin nash's bum? not sure how that's relevant.
>>16347263These are all true but you forget there are other guys that are reliable too. Jericho for example. He got pretty good mic skill, his wrestling style works with just about anybody, he was never busted for anything afaik and he was never out injured for too long. I think Jericho couldve another reign even for a short one, before he eventually did get a reign when he cut his hair short but that was years after his prime. Another reliable guy I can think of is Kane. Not exactly a good talker but with his size he didnt need to be, he can work with anyone never injured another (except Regal but then Regal sawdusted himself), never busted for anything and has been seriously injured once in his career. Kane could've had a decent reign too.
SmackDown! was the absolute fucking tits during this era. Best set, best roster, best action, Eddie Guerrero coming into his own, cruiserweight action with Rey, Chavo, Ultimo Dragon, Undertaker always on the hunt for he WWE title, JBL shenanigans, gorgeous fresh United States title belt design, Stephanie McMahon at her hottest as SmackDown! GM, Kurt Angle being a dimes machine, Chris Benoit putting on wrestliing clinics weekly, Dawn Marie, Torrie Wilson and Sable taking their clothes off weekly, Tazz and Michael Cole bantz without Vince in their ear; it just didn't stop. It was ultimately the better show despite not being live.You flip over to RAW and Triple H is cutting a promo that is just going on and on and on and on and on. He was literally gifted the world belt without winning it, wrestling for it or even having it be in a tournament, he started his own faction to be the Horseman 2.0 an all the members benefited from Hunter being in the main event picture, he kept RVD, Booker T, Chris Jericho, Kane and a lot of others from ever sniffing the main event scene, he was in world title matches at three consecutive WrestleMania's in a row, one where he buried Booker T in a humilating fashion, another where he bored the crowd to tears after Rock and Hogan tore it the hell down, he ruined Randy Orton's original title run, he caused Kane's unmasking and this was after the gross-ass Katie Vick story to bury him, he consistently buried WCW stars despite losing the title to Goldberg, and he more or less hot potatoed the belt between himself and his friends. You turn on RAW and it just felt that so much talent was being wasted but they couldn't bring themselves to go to the B-show. SmackDown!Home.
>>16347692OH DEAR
>>16347692
>>16347686>Thinks WCW fell apart from a match resultYeah, stop getting your wrestling history from the Network and spergy smarks
>>16347730It was the icing on top. Every metaphorical domino gets the wind that pushes it for a reason.
>>16347730fell apart when they didnt put ddp over goldberg
>>16347774It was a small event that's massively overblown by a wrestling audience who for many years after WCW failed, didn't understand how the business side of wrestling functionedNo company in history has lost a ton of revenue based on the kayfabe result of one match. Not even Sheik vs Andre. Killing the town is a total myth let alone killing the company. In fact, the Nitro ratings popped with the fingerpoke from their December slump and stayed high for the whole January
>>16343960Booker should have won. He was the most over guy coming out of the Alliance after RVD and unlike RVD he was more complete since he was a good promo/charismatic and could do whatever role you needed, plus had credibility as a top guy already.
>>16345415Orton jobbed to Triple H after winning the title from Benoit.Orton won the 2009 Rumble and jobbed to Trips again.Batista is the only star the Reign of Terror made.
>>16347344So 3 out of the 4 biggest baby faces in WWE history had (multiple) lengthy title reigns and you’re telling me the money is in the chase? Seems like Austin is the outlier.
>>16348551Yes, the money is always in the chase. This is how wrestling has worked for a hundred years and how professional boxing and UFC also promote now.The crowd turned on Reigns, Cena and Hogan too.
>>16348571> Yes, the money is always in the chase. This is how wrestling has worked for a hundred years and how professional boxing and UFC also promote now.Then how did Bruno, Hogan, and Cena draw will on top and having (multiple) lengthy title reigns. And if we bring in boxing and ufc there have been numerous dominate champs who drew while not chasing. > The crowd turned on Reigns, Cena and Hogan too.Sure any gimmick eventually runs out of steam, but that isn’t relevant.
>>16348585This is a low IQ argument. Oh there's specific examples to this highly generalised point? Well surely that disproves it right?
>>16343943where did his balls go
>>16347184looking like that dude from type o negative
>>16348623Your boomer truism was retarded and thinking about it for more than 15 seconds should have prevented you from posting such stupidity. If we’re veering off into arguing about arguing, then nice motte and bailey. I’m not sure when you decided I’ve been arguing against your “highly generalized point” instead of the insistence >>16347263> Outside Hogan and Cena…long term babyface champions have NEVER drawn in the history of professional wrestling in the U.S.and >>16348571> the money is ALWAYS in the chase.but yes, my examples do disprove your point. If you meant to make a generalized point, then don’t write it as an absolute (multiple) times. I hope you can get back on topic and actually answer my question >>16348585.
>>1634785914 world titles, one of the most reliable workers for 20 years and he's pretty much globally recognized, always getting one of the biggest pops outside of USA
>>16348623Some wrestlers just look better when chasing the title instead of having it. It's like "their story" is finished. Look at Cody Rhodes and how mid his shit has been for the most part since he won the title, he hasn't even been the focal point of anything, even having to suck the tit of the bloodline story like Phil to become relevant. It's what happens to most babyfaces that don't have alot of charisma on their own promos like RVD. Once they get the title they fall flat.
>>16348873>Some wrestlers just look better when chasing the title instead of having it.Not him but they still need to win the thing at one point otherwise they're a fucking loser who can't get it done>he's more overuhhh chasing meuhhhh
>>16343943OP, if you know anything of SuperCena's run, and how overbearing that was them you know Cancer Hunter's run, too.It's basically the same over promoted shit, ran 20 feet down into the earth, then ran some more. Some of the worsts part of Hunter's run is he's not that great of a personality, not the best stick man and he's doing this God run as a heel, so there's even LESS reason to get himself over via promo by traditional WWE standards at the time. And yet, he has multiple segments weekly. Fuck it was bad. It's the reason he got the "Cancer" moniker. No one was tired of babyface WWF Hogan the way they were tired of Hunter. I'd argue one could blame the SuperCena run on this Hunter run, as proof of concept because we definitely continued watching.
>>16343943If you’re a zoomer and didn’t live through it, keep your shit tier opinions to yourself.
>>16348737Nta but you cannot seriously be this autistic
>>16343943He just wasn’t entertaining despite being the focal point of the show. If you think about it, Triple H was the star of the show. Problem was, plenty of other wrestlers would’ve done better in that role. For the Shawn/HHH matches, the other wrestlers on the card were told to work a certain way so they’d look more epic in comparison. So he’s not really entertaining as a character, so so as a wrestler, yet he’s this dominant champion and all these better wrestlers just aren’t beating him. People also had a perception that he was only successful because of who he married. Do you see why people had a problem?
>>16347570You didn't make a point. Instead you've confused what it means to be a "top guy" with a role involved in a simple conventional booking practice.The "top guy" at any given time cannot be reduced to whomever is performing the role of the babyface challenging the heel champion. Regardless of whether you realize it or not (and don't make me have to quote you), this was the dumbkid thesis of your post based on what you actually typed out. If your point were sound, then Damien Priest would be considered the top guy in the WWE. That is what I was mocking.At his peak, Austin's popularity (to name only one example) transcended that of the entire company itself. The questions of whether he was a face or a heel, or champion or challenger, become secondary once a character achieves this status. The "chase" was only one phase in the process of his achievement. There's another (less impressive) sense in which we can legitimately label someone a "top guy." This is when a character is consistently and prominently featured as the "guy" on "top" of the kayfabe hierarchy. In this sense, early 2000s HHH was a top guy, but the same can't be said for the likes of Steiner, 2003 Nash, or Damien Priest. Receiving the push to play the role of babyface challenger to the heel champion doesn't make someone a "top guy." Go ahead and struggle to clarify your "point."
discussing trips reign of terror is one of the consistent way you can actually discuss wrestling in pw.org.il
>>16349443I'm pretty sure half the time Austin wasn't even CHASING a belt, he was off fighting against the McMahons. Even during the Ministry of Darkness, Austin and Taker fought for no belt. The money is not in the chase, it's the character. Because like you say, if it were, I'd be fucking baffled WWE considers Damien and his zoomer lingo tryhard ass to be a top guy. The top guy is whoever makes the most money. That's it. And there's usually factors on WHY they are.
>>16344123RVD and Booker are pretty much household names despite underachieving massively in WWE, this is just cope
>>16346687Im guessing you’re just really young or something because everyone loved those guys growing up
Yes, it was absurdly bad, genuine example of go-away heat and a big reason why the ratings declined slowly but steady since 2003 or so. His awful boring promo openers, the shameless main eventing and his mediocre wrestling ended up doing more damage to the company than anything Cena ever did. Mind you, HHH is a B+ talent, probably the best B+ talent the industry has seen in fact but still a B+ talent all the same, and as you can see by his accolades he doesn't have a sigle thing to his name; his feud with Foley?, just another day for Mick, his feud with Undertaker?, can't even get close to 'carder vs HBK (and others) , his promo game?, absolutely mediocre and a single Rocky line had more charisma than years of HHH, his ring psychology was very limited compared to SCSA and so on and on and on. HHH has nothing to his name besides marrying the boss's daughter and impregnating her asap, even though he has been in the big scene of the industry for way longer than most of those guys, the longevity of a Hogan with 1/16 his star power. Anyways, imagine if Ziggler married steph during 2015 or so and started to push himself everywhere and opened all the show with 15min of retarded promos, it's basically the same thing.
>>16349749Triple H was A talent, and has everything and did everything. What have you done? sit on 4chan and get raped by your dad? I would rape you too
>>16346914This deserves a (you), great post /asp/ie.
>>16346914100% this. Real draws like Austin were confident in their ability to lead the company so they purposefully tried to help other guys get to their level so they’d have someone to make money with. Haitch knew that he was a shitter that found himself in a great situation and didn’t want to let go of it, even if that meant making everyone around you look dimeless
>>16349767Chyna warned us about you, Hunter.
>>16349767>obese faggot retard smark sits at home and thinks about raping man ass daily Um, yikes.
>>16348863And not because of Triple H.Jesus, you're dumb.
>>16344149>2004 and 2005 were much better in terms of match quality and stories.Nigger, 2004 was when he was main eventing Raw with Eugene over Benoit who was the fucking champion. Then he buried Orton. Then he never properly lost the belt. Then he lost it to Batista, jobbed a few times, left, then came back and feuded with Flair for no real reason. Then it was 2006 and the godawful DX reunion run happened.
Remember when Paul Pedigreed Londrick for no reason after they helped him and he tried selling it to them as it was totally intended for them to feud and get their win but gosh darn it the writers decided they didn't want to do it but Paul was totally fighting for them, honest.
>>16346542The problem was that they had too many people and the plan to make WCW a separate brand entirely failed because Viacom (since Nitro was supposed to replace Raw) didn't want "WCW".
>>16350529Just a reminder how Vince immediately threw those plans away because he saw ONE bad match because the wrestlers were out of tune and up against a bad crowd who still HATED WCW because they were fed drones. I fucking hate Vince, he's such a horrible businessman.
>>16343943Everyone stopped watching when del Rio became champ
>>16343943i can only speak for myself but when vince started to push triple h the most i stopped watching. im sure many other fans did too
>>16346914Triple H didn't want to elevate anyone. When they wanted to put the belt on Jericho he said that Jericho was too short and nobody would buy him as a top guy despite Jericho being over; then there's the awful Jericho/Triple H feud where Jericho, the camp, was reduced to playing fourth fiddle to Triple H, Stephanie and a dog. With Booker he convinced the writers that since the match wasn't the main event it wouldn't be good for the WHC to change hands in a non-main event match. With Kurt, he completely derailed the original love triangle angle (where Stephanie was supposed to go with Angle) by saying that nobody would believe Stephanie would pick an ugly guy like Angle over a sexy badass like himself.Arguably the only guy he elevated was Batista and even that only barely because Batista got shipped over to Smackdown right afterwards.
>>16347726Why was Nash beating up Je'Von Evans?
>>16347798The myth comes from the fact that the only comprehensive book about WCW's demise was written by fucking Alvarez and the guy from WrestleCrap.
>>16348873You said it yourself, the issue is that Smackdown is Coconut Community Theater and Cody, despite being the champ, is just a side character to it. They've finally put him in a real feud against KO though and lo and behold it's good.>>16349749Nothing will ever top Cornette callig him a 7 pushed as a 10 so he looks like a 4.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBfxm82M6uoThis was the moment everyone turned on Triple H
>>16350968I still can't believe they just straight up did this shit. >H: Hey Vince, what if we just GAVE me the title? >Vince: GODDAMNIT PAL I LOVE IT
>>16346379>I'm watching 09 right now and this is objectively NOT true. Orton has some of his best matches and mic work in here so far.Is that deranged skinny bald Orton going around punting everyone, cucking a handcuffed Triple Cage and killing Cena's dad?because that shit hooked me as a kid lol
>>16347263You're 100% correct but you need to shower and go outside.
>>16351241I think the Cena Sr. punt was in 08, but yes, exactly. Something just clicked in Randy because he plays this new character so damn well. The promo he gives at Breaking Point is REALLY good. Unfortunately most of the matches with Cena sucks.
Smackdown was taped back then but it was still superior. It had free reign to do whatever it wanted and didn't have the politics of RAW with Undertaker being the big man over there.
>>16344123Batista was only over from 2005 to 2007. People were already getting sick of him in 2008. I guarantee that Booker T, Kane and RVD would have at least had a similarly long shelf life.
>>16350968>>16351224>oh wow I have just bought so much of wrestling's legacy and history with the purchase of WCW and NWA>I also have potentially the hottest heel authority figure in wrestling to be the show's antagonist>lets just have my bitch Eric give the most historic belt away to Hunter then bury it to my belt over the next decade LMAOChad move by Vince. Ya just gotta
>>16351364That's because Cena is a shitter whose only good matches are him being carried by vastly superior workers. Orton is like the living embodiment of WWE Style so no way in hell was he going to carry anyone. That's why all their matches sucked.
>>16351837I'm still confused on what "WWE style" is. If it was just being slow and strong like for heavyweights then yeah, but Randy was lanky and tall, so I don't get it. >>16351677Vince always thought money could grow from flames, it seems.
>>16343943Evolution was dimes and don't let zoomers tell you otherwise
>>16346379Watch the triple threat feud between HHH / Cena / Edge and the one between HHH / Cena / Orton. Edge's work was miles better compared to Orton's.
>>16344123fuck you, RVD is like jeff hardy and sting, they dont need good promos, but its not because work rate, its because of quality of work
>>16343943>>16347858Booker T ended up being the worst commentator of all time in WWE so getting buried was well deserved in hindsight.I don't know what Booker T adds to the commentary. He doesn't say anything meaningful and does not even know the names of any moves.
The spotlight was exclusively on HHH from 2002 on without a Rock or Austin to challenge his status. HHH’s promos are boring, he has no distinguishable charisma, he certainly can't carry a two-hour show and after he returned in 2002 with added muscle, he couldn't work a singles match. Look no further than his KOTR 2002 bumfest with the Undertaker or his dueling shit-tier matches with Scott Steiner. Booker T and RVD were far better alternatives at the time.If you wish to revisit H's golden era, check out Royal Rumble 2000-Judgment Day 2001.
>>16352811>HHH / Cena / Orton.Not to be a smartass but which one? They had 2: WM24 in 2008 and Night of Champions 2009.
>>16350785There are two instances I distinctly remember where "Reign of Terror" era HHH chose to act in a way that inexcusably damaged his opponent's image in the eyes of the fans.The first is from the Wrestleman match with Booker T. Booker's been mentioned a lot in this thread, but remember how that match ended: HHH hit the pedigree, then fell backwards and laid motionless for a while. This gave fans reason to hope that perhaps Booker had enough time to recover and kick out. But then HHH slowly lurched over and made a weak cover before the ref completed an anticlimactic 3-count. It made Booker look like a bitch unworthy of competing atop the card, and it made the match itself worse.The second is even worse. Jeff Hardy was already the more popular half of the most popular tag-team in the company. He was so over that he was getting huge reactions during singles matches, most notably in a ladder match against Undertaker on a RAW in 2002. That match was good, with Taker winning but Jeff shining in an underdog role. He nearly won and the crowd was so behind him that Jeff appeared ready for a successful singles push. Then he wrestled HHH on RAW in September. HHH won clean with *a fucking sleeper hold.* The fans got to see that HHH didn't even need to use the pedigree to beat that mid-carder. He locked in what appeared to be a rest hold. The crowd initially gave the customary chants to encourage the babyface. The ref began lifting Jeff's arm for the spot they've all seen a million times before: the arm falls limp twice, then the babyface comes alive for the comeback on the third attempt. The crowd watched and waited... Jeff's arm fell a third time. The bell rang. And that was it. HHH never used the sleeper as a finish again, and Jeff Hardy's singles run wouldn't begin for another several years.
>>16344605Kane in that time was the smallest he had ever been wtf are you talking about.
>>16353819hmmm maybe but the look was peak, it had all come together
>>16353727Wrestlers don't come up with the finishes in WWE
>>16354066The main eventers and most every proven and established performer has more or less of a say in how a match is to end. Watch a shoot interview.Unproven or inexperienced talent are expected to simply follow the instructions given to them by the agent assigned to their match for the night, but established guys are given plenty of latitude. And with the sole exception of the 'creative control' clause in Hogan's WCW contract, I doubt any single performer had more control over the finishes of his own matches than Vince's son-in-law in the early 2000s.
>>16343943His biggest crime was burying Eugene. A literal retard was getting more reactions and more over than Triple Bitch and he couldn't stand that.
>>16352692Slower pace, less fancy moves, generally softer and safer, focus is largely on the finishing stretch and signature moves; a style meant more for TV. Orton was basically the epitome of this with his ultra-slow and very basic style filled with a lot of restholds which is why "Another chinlock, Randy?" was a common criticism. Usos are probably the guys who most work a typical WWE style match now.
>>16353090I do wonder how different things woukd have been if Steiner's foot wasn't fucked up but I assume it would have only been marginally better because of how shit Triple H was and then Paul would have likely buried him backstage so his run plays out largely the same.
>>16353727The worst part about that Jeff Hardy match is that RVD literally bloodied Triple H before the match and Jeff still lost like a bitchhttps://youtu.be/hQ-oRrQkVdU?si=F_qGbPDeqjw-Auo3
>>16349749I consider triple nose as B (B+ is for Jericho,JBL etc).>Triple H never had 1 memorable promo while having a career in attitude era (can say whatever they want) and while get paired up with McMahons and getting infinite TV time(most wrestlers anytime).>0 good single's matches in his entire careerConsidering the above I am putting triple Nose at C Talent>>16350968For me its the 20 mins RAW opening promo saying nothing everyweek
>>16354345 me(most wrestlers get none)*
>>16354066Smark only board, do your research
