I just want to go over this concept with you morons. Last time some guy ignored the logic while attacking what he thought my motivations were. Being the most wrong I think possible. Truly an achievement in a way.I think there are two main schools of thought here. One is the religious which says you go to heaven or similar.Then there's the atheism variant which I have the biggest problem with because people think they are being scientific, unlike religion which never claimed that.So a really widespread nonsense idea is that when you die then you stop existing for eternity. Okay. What is it like to not exist for an eternity? Do you actually think you will experience endless non experience? Think about what the fuck you're saying for a second. If you've ever fainted, been unconscious, you know what non existence is like. No time passes. You don't even know how long you were gone for. You faint and then you wake up. If you die, it doesn't matter if you don't exist for a googolplex years or infinity. To you it's nothing. You WILL continue to exist the moment of your death from your perspective. Whatever that form may be. You will always exist. There's nothing you can do about it.
>>79998618Maybe my space dust will keep existing the but the electricity in my brain that holds me will never be reignited ever again, my space dust will probably form a different intelligent being millions of years from now
>>79998640We aren't talking about space dust, we are talking about consciousness. If that's not something you know what is you're an npc and this doesn't apply to you.
I don't understand your logic. Death is not a state, it's a non-state, just as being yet unborn or unconscious is. To me, being alive or more specifically being conscious, a conscious being, is to resist death. Once you are dead, you can no longer resist death; when you are unborn you cannot resist death, thus you aren't alive, you have no experience, you are not (to say you are dead is in a way false too, it presumes that death is a state that your being experiences, when in fact it is simply the end of experience. If you cannot resist death, you are not alive, you cease to have form, a subject or identity.
>>79998698consiousness huh? How come no one ever came back? How come you don't remember the last time you died before you revived to this state? Even if this is your same consciousness, the "You" of last time died. You have no memories of that past life, every person you met in that past life is foreign to you.
>>79998618Like, it's not death that matters, man, it's like, life, that matters, man
>>79998618When you die it's over. Your brain shut off like a computer and never turns on again.
>>79998738>How come no one ever came back?Back from what?>How come you don't remember the last time you died before you revived to this state?lol, maybe because your memories get destroyed when your brain rots?>every person you met in that past life is foreign to you. And? Nobody has argued that David Davidson will forever be David Davidson.
>>79998754 Maybe, like, learn to read, man.>So a really widespread nonsense idea is that when you die then you stop existing for eternity. Okay. What is it like to not exist for an eternity? Do you actually think you will experience endless non experience? Think about what the fuck you're saying for a second. If you've ever fainted, been unconscious, you know what non existence is like. No time passes. You don't even know how long you were gone for. You faint and then you wake up. If you die, it doesn't matter if you don't exist for a googolplex years or infinity. To you it's nothing. You WILL continue to exist the moment of your death from your perspective. Whatever that form may be. You will always exist. There's nothing you can do about it.
>>79998772oooooh I see where you are getting at
>>79998781>f you've ever fainted, been unconscious, you know what non existence is like. No time passesI think this is a crucial error in your thought, it's solipsistic. Meaning, your argument is that time stops when time stops for YOU, but this is simply untrue. You can easily see as evidence that things have changed, time has progressed, in spite of your experience of nothing or non-time for instance when being unconscious for a period of time.
>>79998826There's no error, it should be obvious that I know time continues for others. And you have misinterpreted that time stops for you. Time never stops for you. This is the same for Einstein's time ideas and time dilation. People often get that wrong.
>>79998698>you're an npcback to /mbti/ you coping midwit faggotyou're gonna to die and that's gonna be the story of you, this is the one and only life you will ever have, you can't "will" shit into existence just because you're scared to die and can't cope with the fact that you wasted your shit life like the rest of us
>>79998897I completely don't understand your argument is then, because what do you mean when you say no time passes then? I didn't misinterpret that time stops for you in fact I was arguing the opposite. So if we can thus agree that time does not cease when you cease to function, why is it then a reach to imagine that existence goes on without you as you cease to live? What evidence do you have that your form goes onto some other form of life, instead of just ending?
>>79998929these people can't accept that the universe is completely indifferent to their consciousness, after quantum mechanics proved that the measurement doesn't require consciousness and can occur outside of it due to other reactions it more or less discarded even the philosophy that the universe revolves around any form of consciousness, it's just another chemical process that happens to exist inside of it. They will build entire fictional frameworks and mental gymnastics based on these self absorbed ideas because they are truly horrified of dying.
>>79998929What I mean when I say no time passes for you is that what you experience of not existing will be nothing, no time, nothing. If you imagine a movie showing what it would be like is you die and then you wake up, in whatever form. Like in the next frame of the movie.And this by the way is almost the same reason and answer to why something exists rather than nothing. I have no idea HOW something can exist, but I know that logically it has to.
>>79998618Anon, your model only makes sense if we assume (a) that the whole universe revolves around our perception of it and (b) that there really is some kind of "transformation". Unless you can definitively prove both those points, your model is nothing more than conjecture>it like to not exist for an eternityIt's just like how it was before you were born, except it never starts again.At the end of the day, we have yet to prove that consciousness is anything grander than the chemical process of neurons firing. It's a wonderful, beautiful thing, but that doesn't make it divine or sacred by rights. Just because it feels special doesn't mean it'll never end
>>79998618finally, this is the type of this /r9k/ was meant to discuss, this is why we have the robot overlord watching us. i somewhat agree OP, would you consider the state between death and continuing to be reincarnation? do you think its possible to live another human life? or do you come back as anything since matter cant be destroyed? is it possible to come back as an inanimate object like plastic or something? or always as another form of life like a tree or a lizard?
>>79998952 This is not an emotional argument. And by the way, I would be totally fine with not existing. I'm way more scared of what this argument implies. That you're in the worst case scenario tortured forever.
>>79998963>. I have no idea HOW something can exist, but I know that logically it has to.I can understand that, but what I don't understand is why what has to exist (if something is to exist) has to be a continuation of you, of your life, when all physical evidence points to the end of it. Movies end at some point no? They don't go on to become other movies; other movies are distinct from each other, otherwise they wouldn't be very interesting.
>>79998984then accept it, instead of trying to pass it of as a cheesy logical problem. Consciousness is just an extremely complicated chemical process which came to be due to circumstance and chance. Even if the quantum multiverses exist and there are indeed an infinite amount of wavelength collapse scenarios, then there's possibly a huge amount of universes without any form of consciousness. Not to mention that the theory itself doesn't mean that these scenarios can be traversed in any way or that your "consciousness" can bounce between them.
Anyway it's pointless to even debate this until there's real, measurable proof that your "consciousness" goes someplace after your neurotransmitters ceased to function. It's literally just fiction.
>>79999017>then accept itAccept what? Your baseless, mental midget dogma? Heh. Never. I accept only rational arguments. So if you want me to listen, try that instead.
>>79998972>if we assume (a) that the whole universe revolves around our perception of itYes, this is truly the way it has to be. Imagine there's a huge number of universes right now without consciousness. Then imagine there aren't. Now what's the difference? Nothing. Those universes may not exist at all. The way something truly exists is if it can be accessed by consciousness. That's how we are here now, the anthropic principle.>It's just like how it was before you were bornThis is the meme I'm talking about. You have absolutely no fucking clue what was before you were born, because you have no memory of it. While you're acting like you know what it was like. Total rubbish.
>>79999074I am willing to continue this debate after you provide concrete proof that the chemical process known as consciousness persists in any way shape or form after your brain stops functioning. Until then, we might as well discuss Warhammer lore.>>79999128>The way something truly exists is if it can be accessed by consciousness.Debunked, the measurement problem/wavelength collapse doesn't require a conscious observer.
>>79999005>has to be a continuation of you, of your lifeIt won't be, anon.
>>79999145wave function collapse* excuse my drunk ass ways
>>79998618I don't want to live more lives as animals or even worse, low IQ poopjeets. But the thing is, it makes no difference. Whether I die and that's it forever, or I get reincarnated. I won't lose a "chance to rest eternally," I simply won't know what the burdens of my past life were after the point I stop being alive currently.I edited it to illustrate this, there's simply no way to understand the before or after, so they are irrelevant. For all intents and purposes, "we" stop existing after we die, even if we were to be reincarnated.>So what are you getting atBoth "Life, death" and "What actually happens" can be considered correct, since when we die, WE no longer exist. It's not us anymore if we get reincarnated
>>79999145>after you provide concrete proof that the chemical process known as consciousnessHow about you first prove that nonsense claim? The burden of proof lies on you.>>79999145>DebunkedYou clearly have no idea what I'm even saying when you start talking about the measurement problem.
>>79999178>The burden of proof lies on you.No, it doesn't and from now on it's obvious that you're just baiting. Either way, you will die, forever and this faggot life is the only one you will ever have.
>>79999128>Yes, this is truly the way it has to be.You can't just assert that, dumbass. You have to prove it>You have absolutely no fucking clue what was before you were bornYep, and that's how it's going to be after you die. Hope this helps
>>79999193Baiting? I'm not baiting. Fuck you man. Prove your claim or BTFO of here
>>79999246Not me but thanks for answering for me lol. The other guy is the one baiting or just brain-dead.Anyway I have to go, but I'll come back later if this thread is still up.
>>79999246Agreed. You owned that idiot.
>>79998897I am with you here. The other people here are projecting their emotional investment on to you. Unconsciousness is not experienced thus is meaningless. Only consciousness itself is congruent with existence.
>>79999246OP? Are... are you ok?
You are a brainlet, you will never make it, especially with this theory. Just because religiousfags don't get it and reddit atheists don't get it doesn't mean that you do.
>>79998618Go ahead and prove it. You can't.
>>79998963>And this by the way is almost the same reason and answer to why something exists rather than nothing.but not EVERYTHING exists, in fact most things don't exist.
>>79998618From a philosophical pov reincarnation based on karma seems the most fair desu, maybe in the next life we can be chad if we're good enough people in this one. And humanity deserves the current society considering our sinful nature.But what do i know im just a sad incel hoping theres a reason good acts have value
>>79998618This is what scares me about dying. I, in my current place in this universe, may cease to exist, but the concept of my existence, my configuration of particles and molecules that makes up me can still occur. Given an infinite amount of time, assuming the universe remains as we know it and continues allow for the conception of myself, I will INEVITABLY be recreated somewhere somehow having experienced no time pass. The likely hood then that this recreated continuation of my existence is in a place where it can sustain itself is almost zero, so I will again suffer and die immediately before the process repeats. Theoretically this will go on forever. Constant suffering as a result of pure chance and entropy. I don't want to die.
>>79999813The universe isnt infinite. It wouldnt work like that. Unless the big bang is the end and beginning and time is a loop but at that point i'd say we are in hell and we're fucked anyway
>>79999857To believe that nothing existed before the big bang is simplistic and naive, we can't definitively prove anything did, but there's nothing to say it couldn't. I believe that the universe exists infinitely, and that universes like ours are created out of very very very VERY rare occurrences of low entropy pockets in an otherwise fully entropic space. This occurrence of a low entropy pocket results in what we know as a big bang. These other universes that arise out of pure chance are unlikely to be able to sustain any form of life as we know it, but the chance for one that is able to sustain life isn't zero as evidenced by our existence. The combined anthropic and Copernican principle then tells us that we must exist in one of these universes that started with a rare low entropy state, but that it is likely the most typical of these universes. Therefore, our concept could again arise in another of these low entropy pockets, essentially in another universe that follows the same laws of physics as ours.
the power supply that powers on and keeps computer running doesn't die when computer is shutdown nor does it originate from computer itself
>>79999930intelligent posts? on my r9k? to be fair I forgot this place used to be like this pre-2016 before all the normalfags came around
>>79998618kek the stupid mental gymnastics humans do to try to think your existence is important and immortal. You're just an ant that will turn to dust after you die.
>>79998618I'm not an expert and I am fairly sure it depends how you die. If you get electrocuted is going to be a lot different than if someone perforated your lungs. At some point you're body is going to contract, all your muscles will spasm then release and you'll piss and shit yourself. There are verying amounts of pain you'll do that first depending on how you die. I personally am a lawful,... I assume good? Person. So usually I'd shoot you so you'd typically depending on distance don't have to worry about that too much.
>>80001552I mean without getting all scientific about it, I think I'm doing you a favor you won't her the first pop.
>>80001567herfucking hear? Not that it'd make a difference to the poor sap. There are probably worse ways to go. Not that I do that sort of thing anymore.
>>79998618This is all super interesting but I am too stupid to get it.
>>79998618This question is meaningless to science. Consciousness is beyond any possible observation, as far as science is concerned, consciousness does not exist. I personally don't think eternal nothingness is possible. But this is just a feeling that has no basis in physical reality. Any questions relating to consciousness are strictly philosophical.
>>79998952Across endless eternities your exact configuration of atoms will exist again. If consciousness is purely physical then your subjective experience must also exist again. To argue against this is arguing against materialism.
>>80001653>as far as science is concerned, consciousness does not exist.Hahahaha. That's scientism for you. Follow the scientific method instead.
So it's like a videogame, but as soon as you die you start back all over again. What happens to our body? Does it get absorbed by the plants and insects that eat our corpse? And our consciousness? Do "we" cease to exist and a part of us lives on in animals and other living things?
>>80001720Its 100% impossible to observe someones subjective experience. If I cut open your head nowhere in there will I find the subjective experience of seeing the color red, for example.
>>79998618Finally, someone gets it. You cant experience nothing, and we came from nothing, so we can only ever be something over and over again.
>>79998618>What is it like to not exist for an eternity?Existence is a prerequisite for "what is it like" questions. A problem here is that language itself in general is sloppy and misleading e.g. we call something a "sunrise" that's really more of an Earth rotation. In this specific case, the language problem I see is the tendency to say use "existing" like it's an act people participate in like walking when really existence is whether or not you have people to refer to at all. If "you don't exist" it means there is no you, not that you're less solid or hibernating or something.>Do you actually think you will experience endless non experience?There is no you if you don't exist. You need to exist to have experiences.>If you've ever fainted, been unconscious, you know what non existence is like. No time passes. You don't even know how long you were gone for. You faint and then you wake up. If you die, it doesn't matter if you don't exist for a googolplex years or infinity.If you exists and *suspend* consciousness with drugs or brain injury the subjective result is time travel.You didn't exist before birth though so instead of time travel you just don't have any experiences to reference before early childhood. It isn't mysterious or troubling that your memories have a hard temporal limit. Nobody really expects an infinite amount of "pre-existence" experiences in their minds from before they were born. Death would be the other limit, where you end. Death wouldn't be like anything because there wouldn't be any you there to experience the point where there's no longer any you.
>>79999492One theory of the universe is that everything does exist. Then everything interacts with everything else, and the result is as you see. That doesn't mean you can see everything though.
>>79999813Yeah, there are a lot of scary scenarios you can make up. I like to think that given that we have already had an infinite existence, consciousness is the ultimate controller of it rather than a ragdoll being thrown around by cold, uncaring, random rules and occurrences. Whether it was like that from the "start" or we took control at some point.
>>79998618Never seen a compelling argument against reincarnation, tbqhon. If you were born once, no reason it can't happen again. And it would be pretty much instant, too.
>>80001749Yes, for us at present time all you can do is guess what others experience from clues.I've had people tell me "that question is beyond the scope of science" and then I solved it later myself.
>>80002490Even if we 100% understood the human brain we would still not find the subjective experience of the color red. We could find the exact physical brain states that correspond to the experience of the color red, but that is not the same thing as the experience it self.
Ok but what if your brain gets phisically destroyed, like if you die in an explosion? How can consciousness phisically transfer from one destroyed brain to another? Reincarnation just sounds like magic to me
>>80003140Brain doesn't generate consciousness. Consciousness permeates all of existance.
>>80003140because consciousness is an illusion. It's a derivative of the memories and thoughts in your brain, which themselves are a derivative of the chemical signals and voltage potentials in the synpases of your neurons. If these chemical signals and voltage potentials were to be perfectly recreated it would be as if a duplicate of you were to be created who thinks they're you.
>>79998618>>79998952>>79999017Here is a mechanism for how quantum immortality might be possible:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=65jdcvSOOjI
>>80004311I graded your cosmic copesD+, see me after class
>>79998618Who cares about your perspective when you die? The reality is that the word keeps spinning after you're gone and there's no reason to believe the universe will ever spit you back out again. This life may very well be all there is, there's nothing impossible about that.
>>80005502>thinking you can speak theories of self>doesn't know what qualia areMidwit knowitall detected
>>79998640I will hump fat girls in heaven while using her cunt to smoke a bong
>>79998618This is retarded.I can't comprehend ""life"" even if its infinite.Only for as long as your consciousness lives, do you live.Anything else you cannot observe or interact with and therefore it doesn't mater.
This thread is full of people who substantially don't understand the argument but try to challenge it.
