>>153519503
>NBA player rankings
its so tiresome. No other sport obsesses this much about these lists. It doesn't fucking matter.

>>153519582
Probably because a single player has much greater impact on winning than in other sports. Put prime lebron on the worst team; they are making the playoffs. Put prime messi on the worst pl team, they are still going to the championship. A single player has huge impact on winning.

>>153519859
Refs in basketball make the biggest difference over any player. Easy to enforce the script

>>153519503
bro lets do somethi ndifferent

let's first identify the different eras and name them, and then name the top 10 players in each era, and then cross eras and decide which players would be the beste accross two adjecent eras, andthen keep iterating that selection process to see what we come up with

but to answer ur quesiton OP:
off the top of my head, stream of consciousness (soc):
1. jordan
2. shaq
3. bird
4. kareem abdul jabar
5. wilt chamberlain
6. pistol pete maravich
7. stephon curry
8. hakeem olajuwan
9. julius erving
10. willis reed

its interesting no one said shaq
i dont rate lebron bro he was the first guy that was fully manufactured and got the original traveling exemption.

curry was an otherworldly technician and a little guy, he's way above lebron

it's intesrintg no one says shaq bro this guy was essentially the greatest center of all time no one was moving like that at that size

>>153519503
1-10. Wilt
Undisputed GOAT at both ball and life don't @ me

>>153519859
>Probably because a single player has much greater impact on winning than in other sports
Thats an NFL Quarterback and its not even close.

>>153525699
there are really only three eras in basketball, macro eras we can call them:

Before Pete, After Pete, and After The Hand Check Was Removed (aka the shift from American Basketball to International Basketball)

>>153519503
Pointless discussion since players of today play another game. Dead sport

>>153526483
i agree dude, that's why my list only has steph curry, who i think because of his quick release and just ridiculous tehcnical skill/ability, would have been a special player, if not a top 10 player, in any era

but thats what i always say too, man,

after hand check was removed, that was a marketing decision, it lowered the barrier to entry and opened up the nba as basically a plug and play product where anyone from any country could walk in and star.

in the hand check era, that was american basketball. it was a totally different sport, it was way better too, i believe objectively. there was resistance then to overocme. there were consequences. it was real

this shit is...meh
ii dont...

i just compared it to, you know if you play like football manager or wahtever, and you simulate all these seasons and eventually all the real players retire and it's like 2045 and beascailly everyone is a computer generated player now? it loses meaning

that's kind of the feeling you have now, tthere's no meaning, everyone is just a computer generated number generator themselves. whatever, man

>>153526656
it used to be a heroic arc, a hero's journey

now it's a production line

/thread
i mean...the nature completley changed...this is pathethic. it's not even up for dedbate, it's...it's a funeral.
tehre are no more heros, only production workers, they're all basically factory workers. there's nothing to overcome

>>153526656
The handcheck is incredibly overrated. Lebron or Giannis would still bulldoze through defenses if it was allowed. Curry would still get open, Luka would still be scoring on everyone.

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>>153519503
>1. Kareem

>>153526656
its arcade nba jam basketball now, i agree it used to be real, mans game basketball.

>>153519503
If you have Lebron lower than #3 then you are disingenuous.

>>153527266
deluded
>>153527410
it used to be an actual sport, yes.
>>153527508
if you hav ehim on that list at all you don't know what the fuck you're talking about

joker is better than hakeem and im tired of colored people telling me differently

>>153528259
i cant sit here and do this shit all day, get real man

>>153528259
>>153529198
listen to me bro
put your 5 best players of today, any 5 no restcitions
and match them against the last placed team in 1991, and they would get fukcign MAULED they woudl walk off the court by halftime and retire

THAT"S what you guys don't udnerstand. it's THAT big of a difference

era's are 1 problem, the other is position
what a center is asked to do vs what a point guard has to do are 2 different universes.
once you understand that its clear you have to make a top 10 goat list for guards another for forwards and another for centers.

>>153519503
>No Shaw or Kobr
>LeCancer
Throw this shit in the trash

>>153527508
No it means you didn't let Klutch media brainwash your zoomer brain. LeCancer ruined the NBA

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>>153527508
OP here, I actually used to have LeBron #3 behind Kareem and Jordan but his faggoty behavior over the last five years has lowered his estimation in my eyes. That and he never won more than four rings.

>>153519503
>no point guards
John Stockton is a top 5 player
i already know what ppl will say
and i say ' you're right, John should've faked injuries, took 13 - 20 games off so he could've been fresh for the playoffs like the load management bum of todays league'
like leDucant and leDiddy do

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>>153527266
Always drives me nuts how people constantly point at handchecking as if it actually made a difference. Let's look at a selection of all-star guards who played big chunks of their careers both before and after the rule change. Wow, would you look at that, their numbers barely changed. The bigger change was the removal of illegal defense rules, but that had much more to do with team-building than the effect it would have on a single star — since you can't just have four defensive specialists stand on the other side of the court, you did actually need role players who could contribute on offense instead of just being a magnet for the opponents matching position. Stars were going to eat no matter what; handchecking was barely a blip on the radar for a good guard.

>>153530014
basically every single one had a significant jump in TS% and they were all around 30...

listen, you insufferable autist, and i'm wildly austistic too but i'm not dumb, when peopel say "hand checking", they mean the entire host of changes that were ushered in to completlely transform the game and make it accessible to foreign players who wouldn't be able to make the cut in the actual pre 04/05 nba.

the guys today, that your'e atlking about, you cant even say they would do this or that, the fact is they wouldn't even be in the league.

>>153529958
A point guard has never been the best player on a championship team.

>>153519503
The eye-test tells me it's:
1. Jordan
2. Kobr
~~~ power gap ~~~
Rest

>>153519503
Duncan and lebron lost the olympic games to argentina

>>153530501
>muh championships
Robert Horry belongs in all top 10 discussions from now on

>>153519503
objective ranking
1. jordan
2. russell
3. kareem
4. kobe
5. magic
6. duncan
7. lebron
8. bird
9. hakeem
10. wilt

>>153532514
load management era players can NEVER be considered top 10

>>153525973
>t. started watching the nfl in 2019

idk like, without really qulaifying what you mean exactly by top 10 nba players, then my list is obviously the best list anyone offered here, here's why:

what is a top player? for me, it's not the nigga that won all the time or consistnetnly or had the most chips
it's who WAS basketball, who were the nigas that WERE the entire sport, man.
julius erving WAS basketball at that time he was the transition from aba to nba, he was the first jordan.
pete basically invented basketball the way it's played today, he literally opened the door for all of these players we're talking about. i mean, that's not debatable. so we're talking also about influence here, overall influence. then there is willis reed, a little bit of a weird pick to u maybe, but this guy exemplifeid, look if lebron is the poster boy for the bitch fake bakseball era, then willis reed was the poster or epitomized the hardness and toughness of the original sport, the sport as it was isntended. his greatest game he scored 4 poitns and hobbled on to the court basically crippled. people don't understand shit like that anymore when guys are droppin 40 and 50 point games like a walk in the park and teams are scoring in the 150s every other game
easy come aesey go
everything tehse guys did was ..it had meaning, it had weight..maybe that is actually what we're getting at. what the modern guys are doing has no depth, it's empty numbers.
so duncan is not there for me, he was conssitent, he had the chips, but come on man, no one gives a fuck. he was dead, he didnt influence anything, he didnt singe himself into your memory with anything amazing. he just showed up all day every day and put up mvp numbers and won championships. it's funyy to say this but: big whoop. lol and that's not takin ganythign away from him. i mean to write that sentence about someone, that's a huge compliment. but duncan isn't what we actually mean when we ask for a top 10 list.
a couple more words on pistol, yeah man, hang on cont'd,limit

>>153532837
ficlom
fuckin*
ok yeah, couple more words on pistol and why he is without any doubts top 10 all time
he created the modern game he was the template for every single kid that came up on the playground after him, he created And1, eh created magic johnson, he created the entire idea of an individual player having his own style
and this guy basically, he was playing the international game of today, in a lot of ways, in the time when guys were gettin massacred and a three point line didnt ven exist. he was literally eternal. he is basketball past, present, and future
anyone who doesnt have pistol somewhere on the top 10, begone

>>153532514
no lebron, no duncan ..idk, i guess russell yeah he can be i dont remember him that much, ...magic you can make a case. i didnt like the entire aids psyop though he was obviously an agent of the state for,
hakeem yeah..i would replace kobe with shaq
kobe was great dude, but he was basically a shittier copy of jordan, that came right after jordan.
wedidn't need a replay of that shit.
shaq was exceptional, absolutely a retarded level player. i think before he got fat, i mean this guy was moving like a guard with the frame of a fucking superhuman. retarded
shaq is in all top 10s idk how u can not have that
we will proably never see that ever again , complete anomaly

>jordan
Actually that guy
>lebron
Fraud played most of his prime in the weak east. Still gold enough for top 10 i guess
>kareem
Fraud who only won 1 ring at his peak in the weakest era
>tim duncan
That guy
>wilt
Plumbermerchant
>bill russell
Plumbermerchant and stacked teams
>magic johnson
Deserved goat candidate
>bill russell
Deserved goat candidate
>steph curry
Systembaby but won a non asterisk ring so he gets a pass
>kobe and shaq
Good players but 2 of their rings are from rigging (2000 2002)
>hakeem
Only won when mj was out
>kd
Snake fraud who is already frontrunner for kwaboty
>jokic
Great player
>giannis
Fraud with the biggest asterisk ring in a long time, has won 1 playoff series since then despite being at his peak in a bad conference
>dirk
Legend
>kg
Great player.
Nuff said.

bump? anyone still awake? i'm only in this threa di'm not checking the gallery any more, i posted too muc today on /sp/ i feel. so i'm contained. i'm goin to sleep bros if no one hasany last words i'll be around for another 5-10 minutes if you wanan drop an insight,a thought or wahtever

alright dags, i think thats all she wrote
stay good be well, stay up lil nigs
be heretomorrow 8 sharp, were gonna do some poastin
how do the negroes say, "im finna bout to go to sleep" is that it? im finna bout to catch some zzzs no cap fr
good night negroes, i enjoyed this thread today, i think, you know, maybe tomorrow i'll pick like three threads, and not even look at the gallery all day, and i'll just , maybe that's like a better way to post let's try that tomorrow. that way i'm not spreading myself too thin

becuase you see here, i mean, i'm bringin fuckin gold bro. it's fuckin uncanny how many truly profound insights i bring to literally any discussion i'm in. i mean..and so consistently too. it's fucking unreal. i don't even try, that's just literally my thought process, that's my default

man. you fuckin guys, man. you're sitting there, metabolically compromised, completlely drooling retards, and this nigga drops from space at the exact same time as you're alive, on the same forum. you get graced by this presence.
shoot, i wish i was in your shoes sometimes.
sit back and relax brethren
take heed
good night
oh yeah but i mean, go through this thread again, i mean the layered nuance, the insights, the completley original ways of looking at the problme the ideas. it's fucking sickening how brilliant i am. i'm disgusted

good night lil nigs

>>153536190
Good night

>>153519859
Why not just autist rank actual individual effort sports like fighting and track.

>>153534130
>kg was bum played in the charmin soft era
>Duncan a system baby who benefited from load management at the expense of guys like Kawhi
>KD isnt even worth mentioning - ring chaser
>you mentioned bill russel twice make up your mind schitzo
>itts unfair to Russel & Wilt to compare them with anyone who came post Magic/Bird era, its not there fault the league was only 12 teams
>not Hakeem's fault MJ wasnt there

>>153530311
>when peopel say "hand checking", they mean the entire host of changes that were ushered in to completlely transform the game and make it accessible to foreign players who wouldn't be able to make the cut in the actual pre 04/05 nba.
No, they don't. They literally just mean handchecking as if that by itself was some unstoppable cheat code. I doubt most of the people romanticizing the hand check even know about illegal defense.

>>153528150
>>153529763
retards
>>153529843
At least you're admitting you're not being objective, unlike other people who would pass on their bias as subjective analysis.

>>153536849
The second bill russell is meant for larry bird

>>153536926
Hakeem took the rockets to the finals in 86 so you cant say he was a fluke. also, MJ returned in 95 and lost in the playoffs so the MJ was out argument holds no weight.
i dont rate Kareem either his biggest comp was Robert Parrish

>>153530501
Curry, Magic, Isiah Thomas, arguably Chauncey Billups
Sure, it's really rare, but it has happened.

>>153537009
You are right. Changed my mind on hakeem hes legit

>>153537009
Kareem's biggest opps was Moses Malone the most disrespected player in the history of the game. Real hoopers have Moses high on their all time lists

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>>153538223
Dennis Johnson as well. The types of lists that can be made show how many fine players have cycled through.
>duncan
>shaq
>m. malone
>jokic
>olajuwon
>dirk
>howard
>k. malone
>kg
>robinson

Jordan's a pedophile now. He's disqualified from being the GOAT. Give the title to Kobe or Larry.

>>153525973
Kek no. If you don't have at least one elite receiver and a decent o-line then you're basically fucked for the season.

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>>153543415
Breaking news: Team sport, still team. The last good carry I can think of was Dirk's and the Mavs title run.

>>153543758
Read the actual post chain, anon; the german anon wasn't talking about actually winning a championship, just about having winning seasons. An elite hooper on a wank team can still get you to the playoffs, maybe even the second round. Look at the Warriors, Bucks, Lakers last year. An elite QB on a wank team is going 4-13 and is going to be out of the playoff picture by game seven.

>>153543845
>An elite hooper on a wank team can still get you to the playoffs, maybe even the second round.
what gets the elite hooper buckets? looks provided by team defense, and more so pace of play along with sloppy handles/footwork to inflate defense. Im not arguing an elite hooper cant carry, but what gets that hooper to push elite volume? The defense (comparison is the OLINE/DLINE football dictating possessions) or you have the Kings for the past 20 years plugging in 2 guards to carry for low mid high level winning seasons with levels of big men to boost/tank, adding themselves to the list of winning teams like the Jazz/Rockets/76ers/Knicks/Clippers who have earned countless titles.

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>>153543845
This is a fun thread. I havent thought to compare carried teams that lose deep in the playoffs. Here are the Bulls who lost to the Heat

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>>153543845
versus a Brunson carried team last year. Both Thibs teams

>>153544216
What, exactly, are you trying to say?

The point I was reiterating was that, unlike in the NFL, adding a single player to an awful NBA team can push them above .500 and into the playoffs. That's repeating what the second german anon said — that basketball, more than any other sport, is where a single player matters most — which answers the first german's question (why does basketball, more than any other sport, obsess over individual player rankings).

If you take Luka off the Mavs team that makes the finals, they get what, 25 wins against other terrible teams, maybe even fewer depending on Kyrie's availability (because he can no longer take possessions off to rest and will likely have to either sit more or will get hurt even earlier in the season)? If you put Allen or Stafford on the Jets this year, do they suddenly become a playoff contender? Do they even win one more game? The difference that a single player can make in basketball is far more relevant to individual season results. Yeah, obviously, you need a full team if you want to actually win a championship; That's true in both sports. But adding an amazing quarterback to a team full of guys who should be on the practice squad won't get you to the playoffs, and wouldn't even if half the league made it, like in the NBA.

>>153519859
1/5 is a great impact than 1/11 , if messi was on a team without defense it would not matter, iagina inter miami with only messi and americans bad players like they had, messi would have not won shit

>>153544447
imagine*

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Ray Allen carried the Bucks to the ECF against the 76ers. Iverson did not play the 5-26 game, and the Bucks won.

>>153544418
I look at the systems that highlight the players. Reggie Jackson carried the Thunder, and 10 teams now make the playoffs setting the bar lower than ever. Whats the value to carrying in the NBA? Carry to lead above .500 outside a draft pick? Carry to be just outside the playoffs? Carry a 100 million dollar contract? I understand adding a player can do that, but is it bullishly accepted to be the norm for one player to lead to the edge, but rarely finish, yet accepted in all other sports. The head count sure is lower, sure, but why the fuck would a top dog be content leading to being almost X, or almost that.

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>>153544521
76ers carried by Iverson. A carry weight should be developed.
>minutes
>fg/fga
>pts/trb/ast
>to
>pf
>cap hit
>per game pay
>retirement saved
>retirement spent
>bad shots attempted
factor it all in for a number. Lavine is leading the fake stat currently

>>153544594
All of that can be true, but it's largely irrelevant to the question "Why do basketball fans disproportionately care about all-time player lists?" and the answer "Because it's the team sport in which an individual player has the most impact on outcome." The contention with that answer was that it was actually an NFL QB, which just isn't true. You responded to someone saying that an NFL QB on a bad team still won't have a winning record by saying that you need a good team to win a ring in the NBA.

>>153544636
>A carry weight should be developed.
It exists and is called usage rate.

Only major difference is three point volume.
>>153544521
>2000-01 Bucks
8 players double digit minutes
4 double digit points
.434 FG%
95.7 PPG
>>153544636
>2000-01 76ers
7 players double digit minutes
3 double digit points
.421 FG%
92.3 PPG
>>153544335
>2010-11 Bulls
8 (Kurt Thomas played less than 10 games) players double digit minutes
3 double digit points
.422 FG%
92.5 PPG
>>153544347
>2024-25 Knicks
7 players double digit minutes
5 double digit points
.455 FG%
109.6 PPG

>>153544684
>Why do basketball fans disproportionately care about all-time player lists?
The lists generate discussion about styles of play, types of coaching, talent fields along with everything else to be talked about, for further comparison, in an attempt to pin the "ultimate list" which will never be done thus the endless lists.

Does this usage rate factor in salary? I'd want the most value on the court at all times in a penny pinching league.

>>153519503
I would love to hear what argument exists to have Kareem over LeBron. Their case is virtually the same, comes with the basically the same blemishes, and LeBron just did it more. I don't see how you make something that isn't pure emotion to put Kareem above LeBron.

>>153554266

LeGM stat padded in the east most of his career, got the league to ignore tampering rules so he could trade for a whole new roster mid season. you going to say 'Kareem had a superteam too' but that was his front office drafting good players. LeGM got the Wade to take less and money under the table.

>>153525973
What if an NFL team had a line up composed of all the GOATs at every position but the QB is trash?

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>>153554266
Lebron haters have no shame in how they frame his career. Every blemish on his resume is a complete moral failing to them, an irredeemable black stain. They don't criticize any other players with the same level of contempt that they do Lebron whether they be just as accomplished as him or much less so. I don't even think time will be kind to him because the anti-Lebron mindvirus has infected multiple generations who will downplay all of his accomplishments while catastrophizing every single one of his shortcomings for the rest of their lives. It's sad, man.

>>153519503
The Pedo is number one

>>153554529
You can't downplay dominating a conference for 8 straight years, the East was weaker but they still had good teams and a lot of great defenses like the Bulls and Celtics. Why didn't somebody else give Lebron any semblance of a challenge if it was such a joke? The rest of your post is just you being assmad, who gives a shit whether it's the player or the front office is pushing for moves? Kareem also forced his way out of Milwaukee but I like that was conveniently left out.

>>153554529
>you going to say 'Kareem had a superteam too'
No, I'm going to say that

>LeGM stat padded in the east most of his career
Kareem did the exact same thing in the West in the late 70s and 80s, was less successful doing it, and did the final eight years or so as not even the best player on his team.

>>153554566
Trent Dilfer has a ring. If the surrounding cast is good enough all you need is the QB to not turn the ball over.