>>96465923
>How few before it is not enough?
>How many before it become too many?
There should be between 3 and 7.
2 stats stop being stats, they're just two metres like Health/Mana.
8 and more become hard to remember... unless they're arranged in an easy to get grid, f.e.
>three categories: physical, cerebral, social
>each category has a straight-forward, a subtle, and a defensive stat
Or
>four stats used together with skills
>four stats that don't have skills but are used as thresholds or determine secondary values

Cyberpunk gets away with 10 stats, but three of those aren't used for skill checks (BODY, MOVE, LUCK), and one (EMP) serves mostly as mental health metre rather than a roll bonus.

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>>96465923
Tinkering with a Pokemon system on the side. I'll answer.
>What attributes do your game use?
Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed. The Stats from the games.
>How do you use them?
4 skills each. Each Stat has a social skill so no one is a complete social retard. I also wanted a knowledge skill for every stat but it was hard to find them. You get two Major Skills depending on the classes you pick, and about four Minor Skills? Minor Skills are 2d6+Modifier and Major Skills are 3d6+Modifiers. Generally? Attack is for physical power and presence. Defense is for physical toughness and ability to survive. Special Attack is your mental power and general intelligence. Special Defense is for empathy and acuity. Speed is for reflexes and quickness of body.
>How many before it become too many?
>How few before it is not enough?
KISS: Keep It Simple Stupid. 4-6 Stats are generally enough if you have a skill system.

>>96465923
GURPS has 4 main stats, and a multitude of secondary stats derived from the main 4.
The main 4 are:
Strength, which determines your damage with muscle powered weapons, your hit points, and your capacity to lift/carry weight.
Dexterity, which determines the speed you react/act in initiative, how fast you move, and your ability to use dexterity skills (any skill requiring the use of your hands or other extermities).
Intelligence, which effects your Perception, Willpower, and ability to use Mental skills.
Health, which effects your fatigue points, ability to resist being stunned or poisoned, and is used for a few niche skills like Hiking.

GURPS separates what would be the "charisma" attribute into multiple constituent advantages/disadvantages, including your Voice, Appearance, Charisma (word choice), your skill at certain influence skills (diplomacy, fast talk, intimidation, sex appeal), your social status, and your reputation.

>>96465923
Fighting Fantasy has Skill, Luck, Stamina, with Stamina being hit points and Luck is somewhere between a stat and a meta-currency. Some have none at all but that gets into "barely a game" territory.
I'm trying to go with Bile, Melancholy, Blood, and Phlegm, with the idea being that their personality is more important than their physical or mental capacity.

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>>96465923
As soon as you get to like 9 or more stats, you're probably better off asking yourself if your game should just be focused on a skill list instead.
And if you only have 2 stats, then you've basically reduced your game to something like pic related where the stats are just treated as inverses of eachother. Helpful for a one-page RPG that needs to keep things simple. Less so for anything robust.

For what you're asking for, 4-5 is probably better to aim for, especially in the context of every roll being a combination of two stats. The thing to keep in mind there is that the more stats you have, the more combinations you need to account for in terms of what they mean.

For instance, what would be the distinction between using Strength+Charisma and Constitution+Charisma? If certain pairings end up redundant, that's probably an indication that you need to meld some things together. A more generalized Brawn stat would likely be more useful in that context.
And just as a whole for that sort of system, stats that sound more broad make it easier to find a pairing that suits the situation and make judgement calls on the fly.

>>96465923
My main Attributes are:
>Agility - a combination of flexibility & snap-decision making
>Strength - an abstraction of both physical burst strength & magical might
>Vitality - combines endurance, fighting stamina, & luck into one abstract factor

Each Attribute has a slightly different behavior depending on each Feature, too:
• Head
>AGI: Every 1.00 applies +1 RFX to Action & Reaction Skills
>STR: Applies its value to the base Power of Thrown Skills
>VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Head Feature
• Body
> AGI: Every 1.00 applies +1 Chance to the character's Control Checks & -1 Chance to incoming Zoning Effects
> STR: Applies its value to the base Power of Melee Skills
> VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Body Feature
• Arms
> AGI: Every 1.00 increases Throw Range by 1 Space
> STR: Applies its value to the Power of Skills used by the Arms
> VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Arms Feature
• Legs
> AGI: Every 1.00 increases Move Range by 1 Space
> STR: Applies its value to the Power of Skills used by the Legs
> VIT: Every 0.25 contributes 1/4 HP to the Legs Feature

Then, there are the secondary Attributes:
>Armor: A Feature's Durability is equal to its ([STR]+[VIT])×[ArmorMod]. Armor Modifier is determined by character generation options.
>Health: How much abuse the character can sustain before succumbing. Equal to the total HP of all Features, divided by 5. Health is reduced by some Ailments or when an Injured Feature would take Damage.
The character's Current Health applies -1 Chance to incoming Ailments.

>waaah too complex waaah vidya gaems
It's part of my game, that you'll never have to play.
I wrote what I wanted, & I enjoy these mechanics. That's what TTRPGs are about; finding/making games that one enjoys, with mechanics and/or challenges one enjoys.
Rewrite what you don't like means there's no such thing as a bad TTRPG.

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I'm wondering if I have the right stats because I intend to combine all of them, never use them alone.
Medieval fantasy with focus on infiltration/escaping/disabling traps & magic + social conspiracy

Strength is not needed because magic
>Willpower
to combine with Vitality to resist torture
to combine with Charisma to resist intimidation
>Vitality (boost hitpoint or poisons resist)
to combine with Charisma to Intimidate
>Agility
>Dexterity
can't decide if I need both
Agility is about agile body, meant to combine with Vitality if you need basic movement
Dexterity is about skills, meant to combine with Agility to avoid traps, or with Intelligence to disarm trap, or with Charisma to manipulate
if I don't have both, it bothers me to not differentiate basic and skillful actions,
>Charisma
social skills, inevitable
>Intelligence
knowledge, inevitable

And now I'm wondering if I need "Awareness/Perception"
because I suddenly realized I had nothing to combine to notice traps or even ambush in a damn infiltration/backstabbing game
That would make 7 attributes, or 6 if I can remove one.

>funny filename I wish I had more joke pic about stats

>>96467227
I would argue you don't need both Agility and Dex. To me, Intelligence holds more of an implication of a character doing something in a skilled way.
Agility+Int works just fine as a general trap avoidance, lockpicking, etc. Agility+Charisma still works for fast talk.

The lack of Strength isn't an issue because there is a decent amount of coverage for physical tasks. Willpower+Vitality works fine for someone lifting something heavy, Agility+Vitality works for general physical tasks, and I could see Willpower+Agility working fine for some weapons. In some ways I could even see fusing Willpower and Charisma into Passion.

As far as awareness goes, you could possibly just use Intelligence and Willpower. Remember that the point of a system where rolls are just a combo of two stats is that you don't need to worry about making a skill for every little thing.
If you're that worried, you could swap Intelligence for something like Acuity, where then it not only covers a sharp mind, but also sharp eyes and ears. That's what I mentioned earlier in the thread about using more broad names for stats so that they can cover more situation. Since then you avoid needing to add in a new niche stat .

Where's your MOVE stat? Gotta have a MOVE stat.

>>96466479
Sounds kinda bad.

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>>96465923
Whatever you do, for the love of god and all that is holy: differentiate between dexterity and agility. And make perception or something else related to ranged combat.

>>96465923
The most important feature of a set of attributes is that they spell a word with their first letters. Like SPECIAL.

>>96465923
>What attributes do your game use?
12, a sacred number, 4 physical, 4 mental and 4 special.
>How do you use them?
As base% for skills and a lot of derived stats. Abilities like magic are more affected by attributes: Mag for safe spell 'level cap' (can go beyond it but so do the consequences of failure) and damage, Cha for spell aoe/# targets, Per for spell range increments, Spi for fueling spells and spell defense, Int for spell repertoire and research, etc. Want to dodge? Use Agi. Want to parry? Use Dex. Want to block? Use Str. Ranged weapon skills use Dex+Per, bow# determines Str required to properly use it, Str also determines throw range. Want to move fast? You need Agi and Str. Want to do a lot on your turn? You need Dex and Int. Luk affects your crit rate, the ability to gamble against your odds and special defenses. Cha and App divided, high App will give benefits either if it's good or bad, Cha mostly for being social and that includes worship of gods and bargains with spirits. Int also for bonus skill points and faster learning.

>>96467825
What if they all alliterate instead?
>Strength
>Speed
>Stamina
>Smarts
>Senses
>Social

>>96469897
This is also good.
S 5 S 7 S 3 S 15 S 8 S 3 makes for a very readable stat block.

>>96466017
>>96466367

brainlet take. wod/exalted uses 9 stats. they are perfectly fine and simple to remember, their name is self explanatory.
and these are skill based games.

>>96467421
this guy gets it.

>>96470995
Hardly.

>>96465923
Fight
Fuck around
Find out

What are you doing
>I attack the goblin
That's a fight roll
>I craft a potion
Fuck around
>Look for traps
Find out
>Smooth talk the guard
Fuck around
>Cast fireball
Fight
>Fuck the goblin
Fuck around roll. Find out to check for STDs afterward.

>>96469915
kek

>>96471427
Do AoE magic/abilities count as fuck around or just fight?

>>96465923
This thread already exists.
>>96469069

>>96471608
Shit wrong thread.
>>96467611

>>96471446
Does it cause damage? Fight.
Does it cause effects? Fuck around.

Let's break it down.
Cause or prevent damage? Fight.
Have a direct effect not related to damage (open a lock, put enemies to sleep, create an object, etc)? Fuck around.
An attempt to gather information (check for trap, search a room, interrogation)? Find out.

Hacking a computer? Fuck around. Search the hacked computer for data? Find out. Prevent ICE from blasting your brain? Fight.

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>>96465923
I'm writing one right now that has only three attributes, but nine ability scores are derived from those by adding one attribute to half of another attribute.

The game uses a d6 dice pool with varying degrees of success, and the size of your pool is determined by the relevant ability score. Two dice at minimum, five dice max.
Target numbers are determined by either your own ability scores or your target's ability scores depending on the action being performed. You would roll against your own to perform a healing miracle but roll against your target's to bonk them with a warhammer, for example.
You want to roll as many successes (rolls of 4 or more) as possible. Falling short of the target by one still succeeds, but at a cost. Exceeding the target by one or two is a great success, and exceeding the target by three is a crit. Falling short of it by three is a fumble. Sixes explode, and ones defuse (any dice that would explode do not).

I initially conceived this to be used with a skill system, but I'm strongly considering abandoning it. I kind of wanted to ape the skill-based progression mechanics from Mouse Guard, but I'm not sure if it's actually going to add much to my game or not.

>>96467825
You would love the QUENDO system I made up in an afternoon for my little sister when I was a teenager, then.

>Quickness
>Understanding
>Experience
>Nerve
>Direction
>Oppa Gangnam Style

STAMINA
SKILL
LUCK

>>96468383
How does this look?


[Physique] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: Health pool.
-Strength- :: Governs violence and exercises of force.
-Endurance- :: Governs resistance against physical forces.
-Metabolism- :: Governs digestion, recovery, and biological/chemical resistance.

[Motorics] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: AP pool.
-Dexterity- :: Governs fine motor finesse, particular in the hands.
-Agility- :: Governs acrobatic and athletic feats
-Reflex- :: Governs evasion and other feats requiring twitch responses.

[Psyche] :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: Morale pool.
-Expression- :: Governs social grace and persuasiveness
-Intuition- :: Governs primal instincts and spiritual sensitivity.
-Attunement- :: Governs raw spiritual potency.

[Cognition] :: :: Equal to sum of SubStats :: SP pool.
-Intellect- :: Governs matters of logic, reason, and academia.
-Perception- :: Governs the acuity of all mundane senses.
-Resolve- :: Governs mental and spiritual resistances.

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>>96467391
Thanks for the constructive argumentation, it's fascinating how anons give such wildly opposite ideas.
Just to be clear, yes Dex+Int is best choice for skilled works.
But if I only use Agility, Agility+Int would become skilled-work and only 3 stats would lead to easy ninja agile, smart & crafty.
...unless I then use Agility/Dexterity+Awareness/Perception to cover a ninja who invested in Agility+Awareness but lack the Int to craft or disarm stuff.

>Willpower+Vitality works fine for someone lifting something heavy
My magic system really override Strength and Willpower is to be a character defining stat you can chose not to invest in, not a Laziness stat.
Sames goes for using Willpower along Intelligence to see things, it would force to put points in Willpower just in case.
I must reveal that I intend to use Willpower as a bad thing due to magic or fast-talking a Willpower build lacking Int or charisma.
I might look for a whole new attribute name.

>>96467421
Care to go in more depth why separating Dex & Agility is important for you?
Myself I want to differentiate so an Assassin's can leverage Vitality+Dexterity over a plain Vitality+Agility.
Archery/ranged battle would indeed be Perception+Dexterity. I kind of prefer Awareness to include listening check or plain survival instinct.
Which is why I suddenly realize my need for such stats.
As said above, it could be used to replace Dex+Agility, while also giving analysis: Intelligence+Awareness
If I only keep one, I kinda prefer Dexterity.

>>96467825
I shall keep these words of wisdom under consideration.

>>96473235
>Care to go in more depth why separating Dex & Agility is important for you?
Different guy here, but I like the idea of separating the two because they can have wildly different applications.
Dexterity is fine motor, and Agility is Gross motor. Folding a paper crane and vaulting over a barrier without losing any speed or momentum are very different skills.

>>96465923
Fire: Acts as strength, passion, charisma
Earth: Acts as willpower, resistance, and stubborn
Metal: Acts as logic and precision, intellect
Water: Acts as empathy, perception, adaptation
Wood: Acts as stealth, agility, and deception

Done. I've solved attributes using the most based elemental system.

World War D uses 10/11 Attributes , each contributing to three factors of your character. With most units having randomized stat gains this should help each stat feel impactful.

Strength: Physical Damage, Stun Reel, Carrying Capacity
Agility: Reactive Damage Bonus, Crit Reel, Running Movement Spatial
Dexterity: Critical Damage Bonus, Dodge Chance, Skirmish Movement
Endurance: Focus Damage Bonus, Hit Point Capacity, Defensive Matrix Bonus
Intelligence: Technical Damage Bonus, Affliction Reel, Skill Point Capacity
Perception: Dynamic Damage, Direct Hit Reel , Range Bonus Spatial
Magic: Magical Damage, Spirit Points Capacity, MAGA bonus
Wisdom: Exploitative Damage Bonus, Control Area Spatial, Support Magic Tax (SMT)
Charisma: Co-op Damage Bonus, Co-op Reel, Smirk Reel
Luck: Bonus Reel, Antiffliction Reel, Force Fate points ( like a reroll but used preemptively for gamespeed)
Finally there is Reason which is only for human characters with agency. Your in game faction will populate this stat one of several ways.

>>96473275
The anon you answer: that is/was my original take.
But both are extremely close and kinda become redundant if the true distinction is carried by the combination with something else.
>Folding a paper crane
Dexterity+Intelligence
>vaulting over a barrier without losing any speed or momentum.
Dexterity+Vitality

>>96473300
Deception/stealth is typically associated with water as it flow evasively
And empathy/adaptation would be something that grow, that's alive: wood
Sorry, I would rather drink pure aether

>>96465923
I'm partial to Shadowrun and GURPS

Shadowrun has:
>four physical attributes: Body, Agility, Reaction, Strength
>four mental attributes: Willpower, Logic, Intuition, Charisma
>four special attributes: Edge, Essence, Magic, Resonance
>physical attributes map directly to mental attributes: Body = Willpower (Resistance), Agility = Logic (Finesse), Reaction = Intuition (Reflexes), Strength = Charisma (Power)
>Magic and Resonance are irrelevant to most characters, and can be thought of as an extension of Essence, so really there are only ten attributes total

GURPS has:
>Strength (ST) (10 pts/lvl): physical power and bulk; governs Damage with muscle-powered weapons, Basic Lift, and Hit Points
>Dexterity (DX) (20 pts/lvl): agility, coordination, and fine motor ability; governs Basic Speed and most physical skills
>Health (HT) (10 pts/lvl): energy, stamina, resistance (to poison, disease, radiation, etc.), and basic "grit"; governs Basic Speed and Fatigue Points
>Intelligence (IQ) (10 pts/lvl): creativity, intuition, memory, and reason; governs most mental skills
>Willpower (Will) (5 pts/lvl): resistance to psychological stress, supernatural attacks, and mental manipulation
>Perception (Per) (5 pts/lvl): general alertness, physical senses, and ability to notice things

I am of the opinion that any system where Dexterity is a single attribute and costs less to raise than Strength and Constitution is shit.
Likewise, any system where Willpower and Perception are inseparable attributes is also shit.

>>96470995
Read again. WoD/Exalted are literal examples of what >>96466017 said.
>unless they're arranged in an easy to get grid
>three categories: physical, cerebral, social
>each category has a straight-forward, a subtle, and a defensive stat
That's point-for-point WoD/Exalted's stat line-up.

>>96473235
NTA, but separating Agility/Dexterity is often done to avoid the bit you were talking about, where without splitting them Dex can easily become a very all-encompassing stat because it ends up covering things like dodging, ranged attacks, sneaking, and a lot of other quick/precise tasks, which tends to cover a very, very broad range of tasks.

That isn't to say you have to include both, but it does mean that any other stats you include have to be similarly useful.
Like for instance, if you made it so Awareness+Int was for ranged attacks and crafting, then the hypothetical Ninja still ends up needing more stats to cover everything. Or crafting could be Vitality+Int instead to represent a smith working at a forge, an alchemist testing chemicals, etc.

>My magic system really override Strength and Willpower is to be a character defining stat you can chose not to invest in, not a Laziness stat.
See, that just ensures that people are going to be reluctant to invest into Willpower if it's deliberately made worst than other stats. You generally want things to be fairly even so that players don't end up gravitating towards a certain stat spread.
I might suggest doing some playtesting for some basic scenarios, and keeping a tally of what combinations of end up being used. If a combo or stat isn't getting used enough, ask yourself if you really need it, or if it could be replaced or folded in.

Fucking this >>96467421. I can't count the number of systems where the one Dexterity/Speed attribute is the uncontested God stat that does almost everything, while there are three or more stats for the same cost that do literally fuck all.

>>96473300
>>96474200
There is a fair case to be made for using elements or something more abstract as stats. Primarily because it allows you to subdivide things in whatever way you need without having to worry about finding the right word to describe it.

Notably your objection to the list primarily seemed to be that Wood/Water should be swapped.
So why not do that? Have Wood be empathy and perception because it is patient, and water be stealth/agility/deception because it's nimble and flowing.
Or any other mixture really. As long as you can justify the associations, the stats are able to be as broad as necessary to have things mechanically work.

>>96474200
>>96475393
In Wuxing, Wood is associated with evasiveness, and water is associated with adaptation. Wood penetrates into and through objectives, and water is something that flows around objectives rather than into them. Stealth is fundamentally the practice of being where you do not belong without being noticed: Like a weed in a garden or a beast in the forest.

As far as perception and empathy, Water fits because it's about intuition. While wood is also seen as impatient and assertive, the kind of risk taking you'd do to sneak into a fortress. Wood is the type to do not listen to people, while water is the type who would hold back.

It also has to do more with elemental interactions in play. Someone lying to you (wood) can be easily debunked with logic (metal), which fits because wood is overcome by metal, but would be good at talking someone around their principles (earth).

Someone connecting with you (water) in order to convince you to do something is easier if you're a passionate person (fire) but a lot harder if you're just a stubborn bastard who refuses to listen (earth).

The other way around makes less sense.

While deception is something of a thematic connection to the stealth aspect, you are right it would fit slightly better with Water... except you also need to consider avoiding making a godstat for any particular playstyle. If you make Water both stealth, deception, and perception, then any kind of scout archetype character can just max out water. As-is, every character would want at least two stats, and very few would want just one. A swordmaster would want both Fire and Metal, a scholar would want Water and Metal, while a bruiser would want Fire and Earth. That puts Water and Wood into a scout archetype.

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How do you guys feel about Luck as an attribute? What have been your favorite and least favorite ideas and implementations of it?

Right now, I'm theorizing the idea of having a race have Luck as their special racial ability, which functions similarly to probability manipulation that can be used in social situations, combat, and everything in between.

>>96476395
>roll a d100
>this is your luck stat

>>96476395
Unofficial Elder Scrolls does Luck really well.

For each 10 above the average, you get a lucky number (rolled during character creation) and a luck point. Points can be spent (or burned) for effects, and those lucky numbers are what you need to roll in order to crit. For each 10 points below average, you instead pick up 'unlucky' numbers which are automatic critfails.

>>96471853
This is actually pretty neat. Good job.

I have an obsession with the personality typology known as Psychosophy, which has four functions (Physics, Logic, Emotion, and Will). These correlate to Body, Mind, Spirit, and Soul. Or Soma, Logos, Telos, and Pathos. Point is, I think there is something about this schema (as well as your conception) which is archetypal and highly satisfying.

>>96476525
I'm glad you see what I was going for there, and I would have to agree. I'm unsurprisingly trying to use this for a pulp fantasy game, but I wanted to lay a groundwork that could be used with other settings. I also wanted character creation to be dead simple. You get five points at level 1 to assign among those three attributes.

If I do end up including skills, I don't want to have too many cluttering my character sheets. I'm offering classes and races, but I'm calling them "tags" and allowing each character to choose three tags, one of each kind: a "style" (nimble, terrible, noble, wild, dark, bright, etc.), a species and a job.
If I do end up including explicit skills, I'll package one or two skills with each tag, probably two.

>>96466193
Attributes are definitely a weak point for gurps

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>What attributes do your game use?
Pic related is an example
>How do you use them?
Point buy system, stats go from 1 to 10, but it's a d12 system. Initially you get 9 points to buy Mind Body or Soul (=), then you get double that available for (-) and (+) of every stat. In general terms:
> - : Passive i.e. Passive Mind -> Resisting Intimidation, or Passive Body -> Blocking an attack
> +: Active i.e. Active Mind -> Trying to learn something, or Active Soul -> Throwing a fireball
> =: Neutral or fallback value, for whenever you are not sure if something would be passive of active. It's also used for other calculations in the game
Items and magic have a similar structure, but with type of damage and stuff. Everything was made to be easily created with in seconds, I also have some scripts ready to make it easier.
>How many before it become too many?
Whenever you are unsure of which stat to use, it's already too many imo.
>How few before it is not enough?
If the game feels like a Power Point slide when it comes to calculations then it's probably not enough.

My system was thought for a play by post system but I've also used it in person just fine.

>>96476950
Good idea. I would recommend that skills should involve specific actions pertinent to what the adventurers will be regularly doing rather than comprising a comprehensive list of every conceivable domain of knowledge. Start with a small list of useful skills and add more through play testing.

>>96474200
Swift as the wind, silent as the forest, fierce as fire, immovable as a mountain.

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>>96465923
These are the ones in the game I'm currently playing. Quite enjoying genesys even though I know I'll never own any physical dice for it. Maybe I'll get lucky and FFG will make more eventually...

>>96467825
>Awareness
>Utility
>Toughness
>Intelligence
>Strength
>Magic

You're right

>>96477141
I like it. Very clean and minimalistic. I'd play with this.

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Did any game find a good solution to the Strength/Agility/Resistance conundrum? As a reminder:
>A very agile character should also be stronger than average
>A very strong character should be more resilient than average
>Yet, you can imagine characters which are tough as nail but not strong, or strong but not especially agile

>>96478730
It's never truly elegant, but some systems base the HP/Wounds on several attributes with different weightings. For instance, WFRP may add double your Toughness as Wounds, and also your Willpower, as well as your Strength and your Agility. Attributes like Dexterity don't add anything to your numbers of Wounds.

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i'm making a 4x4 grid.
Everything starts at 9, you must choose one from each column to be -4 and one to be +4.
it's a 3d6 roll under system.

>>96478730
The physical stats coming together is more of a statistical thing though.
For a TTRPG it's much more fun to be able to easily create a character with a very atypical physique that is somewhat mechanically represented. I'd be bit bummed if I can't play a slippery twig or a glass-jawed bruiser if I want to.

>>96478789
This is really cool, but I don't see why my character should be very dexterous in one category and clumsy in another one.

>>96478861
i get that. this is very early stage so you're probably right.

i could justify those in roleplay:

junior scout, so you're very fast, but not very precise (aka you run like the movie Flash).

a war-medic turned surgeon, so you're very precise, but old, so you're not very fast.

you're a retired brawler for entertainment. agility and reflex on point, but not the precise/sneaky type.

but you're right i need to refine this.

>>96478730
In what way is that a conundrum? Such characters are both imaginable and exist in reality. The first two points are irrelevant.

>>96479270
is a bot

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>>96478742
That's a good option, but it doesn't link Strength with Agility.
But, yeah, I also like systems where Strength and Constitution are fused.
Hey! Here's another part of the conundrum
>Being taller makes you both stronger and more resistant to damage (except for some edge cases, like acromegaly)
>But you can be stronger than average without being taller
>You can also train to be stronger, but not to grow taller
>>96479270
>>96478825
Hum... maybe I reworded the third part of the conundrum very poorly.
The issue is that, if these three stats are completely disconnected, you can get into absurd situations where a character with a high agility has a lower than average strength or constitution (or very high strength but lower than average constitution and agility, etc...), which both don't make sense in reality and don't stick to archetypes seen in most fiction.

>>96479771
I'm not a bot, I'm just ESL

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I'll admit the truth, my entire game is actually about pic a reality.
There's no hiding it further.

>>96474652
Yes, my intent is to prevent being able to invest in stats that encompass every action, while the stat+stat combination encourage large gap without becoming a single-trick pony.

>if you made it so Awareness+Int was for
I get your meaning but your example are kinda counterintuitive.
My Archery would use DEX+AWA (it would be VIT if magic didn't replace Strength)
My magic don't use INT, at all. So AWA+INT would be more about searching the environment for something to exploit.
Ninja type moves would scream AGI+DEX (implying a ninja isn't VIT, and need to go low on CHArisma or INT).
Crafting may ask for INT+DEX, but smithing would accept VIT+DEX so an ex-smith don't rival with a scholar making clocks, while still crafting.
I'm really thinking about fusing AGI as DEX and taking Awareness. I feel dumb not having observation stat in a game I meant to be about stealth, cunning, and surprise attack.

>are going to be reluctant to invest into Willpower if it's deliberately made worst than other stats
I'm regretting calling it Willpower >>96467227, mine is more of a trait you chose/roll than an investment.
Still combining it with other stats force the player into some approach.
Vitality+HIGH WP would let you resist torture, but Vitality+low WP would let you sneak inconspicuously, make other underestimate you.
I could go on but I'll just end up explaining my whole game.

Good suggestion tho.

>>96478296
>>96475393
>>96476230
>In Wuxing
I yield, please spare my unworthy life oh Cultivated anon!
I admit that my take on Water = evasiveness is half intuition, half "Magic the Gathering". Letting you guess for wood & nature.
Wuxia is dumb tho, only funny because of the incredible effort put on rationalizing previous madness

>>96476395
>How do you guys feel about Luck as an attribute?
I feel like even if I maxed it, I would only arrive at the end of my luck.

>>96480484
Yeah, my homebrew is basically a bunch of wuxia and xianxia bullshit stacked on itself. It's a love letter to the spirit cultivation genre. My main goal is to get players to say shit like 'you are courting death!', calling themselves in the Eighth Stage of the Golden Core Realm and using techniques like 'Fifth Star Ultimate Soul Strike'

I'm surprised nobody's really done it yet, or hadn't when I started making it, outside of Legend of the Five Rings which isn't exactly what I was looking for.

>>96465923
>What attributes do your game use?
Agility (Speed and Reflexes)
Charm (Charisma and/or Attractiveness)
Fortitude (Endurance and Durability)
Marksmanship (Perception and Precision)
Mental (Intelligence and Insight)
Might (Physical strength)
Spellcraft (Magical ability and knowledge)
>How do you use them
Each Stat has 5 associated skills. Some Stats affect things like HP, Class Saves, and Attack and Defense Modifiers, but all affect their associated Skills in Skill Checks at half value (rounded down).
>How many before it becomes too many?
As many as benefits the system for mechanical diversity. For example, in my system splits several important skills across various stats, With Marksmanship dictating all ranged weapons (other than explosives and thrown weapons), Fortitude dictating Unrarmed Weapons, Might dictating Melee Weapons and Thrown Weapons as well as Explosives, and Spellcraft dictating both spellcasting and the use of Enhancement Arts, self-buffs that Martials can use by spending their (limited) MP. Mental and Charm are more auxillary social stats, though some Specialties (similar feature to subclasses or archetypes) can make use of these in combat too.
>What alternative is there
A system purely driven by skills. My system uses skills (0-5) and stats (1-10, limited to 1-8 at chargen) instead, as the stats allow for mechanical diversity in class options as well as augmentations to HP and MP per level and the potential for GMs to swap what stat is used with what skill (i.e. Agility [Stat] + Spotting [Skill] for a reactive attempt to spot a fast moving hidden creature).

>>96480439
The thing I'd note with the examples you gave, which is the thing to be wary of, is that all of them rely on Dex.
Archery is Dex+Awa
Ninja-stuff (which is incredibly broad) is Dex+Agi
Crafting is Dex+Int or Dex+Vit
Disarming traps is Dex+Int
And you mentioned earlier how Assassins might use Dex+Vit, or how Dex+Cha is to manipulate

This is the exact issue you say you want to avoid, but it's cropping up because you've decided that Dex is for all skillful actions.
How's this for an exercise: take a character that's hypothetically maxed out in every stat, except for having a 0 in Dex. How functional are they in terms of being a stealthy/cunning infiltrator?

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>>96480551
>My main goal is to get players to say shit like 'you are courting death!', calling themselves in the Eighth Stage of the Golden Core Realm and using techniques like 'Fifth Star Ultimate Soul Strike'
Obligatory american cultivation

>>96480192
>high agility has a lower than average strength
Small person who can move their body well but not exert force on other objects.
I still don't see the problem. You just seem to have very strange expectations of an incredibly abstract model that crams the huge range of human possibilities into a handful of small numbers.

>>96480672
That's a very good warning. Thank you.

Thought we were focusing on DEX versus AGI.
The solution is to make sure another attribute imply a lesser form of dexterity, rename it or maybe fuse Vitaity&Agility
But if I keep Agility I fear to have to arbitrarily define what goes in, and it spread into 2 stats qualities that often go together. Someone Agile is typically Dexterous.
>archery
I could use Vitality+Awareness, it's not Strength only because my magic override it.
>Ninja-stuff (which is incredibly broad) is Dex+Agi
I was kinda joking with that one to show that both DEX & AGI would feel obligatory for martial art, resulting in VIT 1 ninja mook spending the rest in INT, CHA or now AWA
>Disarming traps is Dex+Int
Noticing trap first would now ask for AWA+INT. but escaping it would indeed scream AGI or DEX
>And you mentioned earlier how Assassins might use Dex+Vit, or how Dex+Cha is to manipulate
Intimidating would lead with VIT, and use my 'special' not-attribute personality score for willpower, whether you confront problem, or sneak around problem or accept VIT+CHA, + contextual change
Manipulating could easily use CHA+AWA, if DEX+CHA is fast-talk suited for a guard, CHA+INT would be a sophisticated lie (I guess INT+AWA would be stating fact).

>How's this for an exercise: take a character that's hypothetically maxed out in every stat, except for having a 0 in Dex. How functional are they in terms of being a stealthy/cunning infiltrator?
A good test case. But always using 2 attributes mean he would average 5/10, so more as a dump stat:
With high VIT he would survive traps, if aware of trap, he could use INT to trigger/lessen it (but making noise)
With high CHA+INT he could talk his way, he would be mocked as clumsy but dangerous.
Still working out my not-attribute trait which is quite social and contextual, forcing to sometime bet on failing it.

>>96485213
>But always using 2 attributes mean he would average 5/10, so more as a dump stat:
He'd only average 5 on anything Dex related. But the point is more to have a character that's going to be choosing a non-Dex option whenever possible, and would be the worst at Dex.

And the examples there aren't exactly inspiring confidence. I assume Vit+Agi would be for dodging a trap, since it covers both avoiding and enduring.
Triggering a trap intentionally is something that doesn't even seem like it should be much of a check. But it's also a bad example since Dex is still so useful in disarming traps.
And he does have Cha+Int or Cha+Vit for persuasion/intimidation, or options like Vit+Agility to be physically mobile.
But if that's the handful of examples that spring to mind, it really highlights the problem where unless you're doing social stuff, Dex is basically always ending up as the better option than everything else.
And I think it'd be possible to split up some of this with Agility in order to reduce Dex's dominance, but I think that requires a more clear delineation. there isn't a clear distinction for Agi+Cha and Dex+Cha in terms of what they'd mean for conversation.

I think what might work is to shift it to Device or Tinker, where Dex is instead shifted to be specifically about fine motor skills involving complex objects.
That still leaves some things like crafting or disarming traps, but Dex might only be useful for crossbows, rather than a wider range of weapons. Awa+Vit could be bows, and Vit+Agi could be melee options. It also makes Agi the more clear option for fast-talk or lying, while Device+Cha might instead be forging letters or playing instruments.
It lets you siphon away enough nimble/skillful tasks from Agi to avoid it becoming dominant, but helps avoid Dex being the same by narrowing its scope.

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>>96487129
>But the point is more to have a character that's going to be choosing a non-Dex option whenever possible
That's why I rephrased it to reach that intent, If he is "maxed out" in the rest, he can't suffer a low combination.
>I assume Vit+Agi would be for dodging a trap, since it covers both avoiding and enduring.
If I keep AGI along DEX, yes. But as discussed, they overlap too much.
>Triggering a trap intentionally is something that doesn't even seem like it should be much of a check
Unless your INT+AWA check tell you exactly what the trap does and it has a safe way to trigger it, you might kill yourself in the process. the obvious trap was to distract you from the real trap.
>it really highlights the problem where unless you're doing social stuff, DEX is basically always ending up as the better option than everything else.
Yes, a common problem, DEX is usually the safe bet.
>I think what might work is to shift it to Device or Tinker, where Dex is instead shifted to be specifically about fine motor skills involving complex objects.
The way I read that was fusing DEX into AGI and making a "Device/Tinkering" attribute.
Maybe a word for proefficiency with tools/magic? Siphoning even weapons out of "great motor skills".
It also siphon Charisma combination but there was already too many. Martial art would become VIT+AGI, weapon VIT/AGI+tools, trap disarm INT+tools, most talk based manipulation CHA+INT, unless physical then CHA+AGI, also resulting in archery being Tools+AWA. and having CHA+tools for instrument reminded me Red bard from Thunderbolt Fantasy
That actually sound great if I find better than TOOls.

>>96488262
>Maybe a word for proefficiency with tools/magic? Siphoning even weapons out of "great motor skills".
Yeah, that was the rough idea there, where rather than being quite as broad as dexterity, it is more focused on tools and tinkering. And that sort of tinkering skill wouldn't really help when it comes to something basic like a mace, but works fine with crossbows or complex magical weapon gizmos.
And then it leaves AGI available for the more physically intensive aspects of speed and movement, and also makes it more distinct in terms of which rolls should be assigned which.

The name is a hurdle there though. Tool sounds a bit off compared to the other stats.
Technical might work. Shortens to TEC. No matter what it would still need to to clarify the scope of the stat with the players, since it would be a more unusual one.

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I wanted to make a game system that makes HP, magic, and any action really all one stat. Just call it energy.
Throw a punch, cast a spell, get hit..all would take some HP. It was supposed to use proportions of the energy used to determine intensity. So much like you might up cast a spell using a higher spell slot for more effect you could dump more energy into a spell for more effect.

The net effect was to have players think more strategically about when to unleash powerful spells and all of that.

Would probably work better for a tabletop for like dragon ball Z but could be adaptable for anything else really.

I was never sure how I would apply stats. Maybe something that would modify how much energy was used for actions.

>>96465923
The speed vs. strength meme has probably been the most disasterous idea to ever exist. Not only that, making dex and attacking stat as if swinging your sword like a limp-wristed fop versus being a -IQ brute makes a difference.

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>>96488499
>The name is a hurdle there though. Tool sounds a bit off compared to the other stats.
Technical sound a bit off-er to me, medieval fantasy setting and all.
I've gone through this entire list: https://creativereckoning.blogspot.com/p/attributes-by-game.html
Only seen 'tool use' and technical for cyberpunk games, tools usually ask Dexterity so of course everyone use it!
At this point either I use "TOOL" or I stick to using both Agi & Dex, insisting Dex is only for precise body movement, so le Virgin VIT+DEX fat trap disarmer will get jump-kicked in the face by le Chad VIT+AGI martial trap jumper.
At least it prevents Tool from being obligatory to use weapons and siphon Dex out of ninja

It would annoy me greatly to go back to zero despite the good suggestions so far.
I wonder if we can trigger shitstorm asking the difference between Agility & Dexterity attributes.

>>96490166
>The speed vs. strength meme
I've always wondered if it didn't appear because of video games
Movement speed, attack speed are vastly easier to code and balance than anything involving parry and hitting weak point in plate armor.

>>96492033
The only other thing that springs to might is Artistry or Artifice, to cleave a bit closer to medieval fantasy, but it's definitely tricky to find a good word there.
Tool feels like it could work, but I think runs into the issue where it implies that anything that involves even the most basic equipment gets to use it. Like instead of using Vit+Agi to climb a wall, and having a lower DC if you use a rope, including the rope would let you sub in Tool instead, which seems a little off.

That's why phrasing the attribute as something involving more precise technical skill feels key to limiting its applications. Since then it would allow you to use different stats for less mechanical/complex weapons.

>>96471427
>>96471716
Sounds pretty good to be honest family.

Could build a beer and pretzals light game off it, at least

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>>96492159
>but I think runs into the issue where it implies that anything that involves even the most basic equipment gets to use it.
You confirm it's worse than I thought.
The latest objective was to avoid DEX being an go-to stat and have a stat combination for "basic movement".
With only AGI & Tool, AGI would become the new DEXobligation for all movement and Tool the implied obligation to use weapons or a spoon. So it feels we've gone backward.

I'll just stop the headache (started with >>96467227).
I'll clarify my AGI (good overall movement) and DEX (tricky actions, tools will fall in only if tricky), it will be 6 attributes (+ my special trait that isn't something we put point in anyway), adding Awareness I've lost a blind spot. Try & see.

Thanks for the brainstorming.

>>96476950
I'll be honest I have no idea what sort of game would use >>96477141>>96471853
But forgive me I'm dumb and it's incurable.

>>96494231
I'm >>96477141 but my idea is pretty similar to the other anon, I also have something similar to his tags. As someone who didn't grow up with TTRPGs but rather was heavily into gamedev growing up, I just wanted a simple system that could support complex situations, and when vidya does that it's usually through compound stats.

But as far as playing experience goes, I don't think it's that different from other systems, if you need to roll for something you get the compound stat and roll for that. Besides of course, allowing for the possibility of the player treating it like vidya, which I know can be a negative for some, but for us it's ok.

My favorite part is that I can just sit down with new players for like 20min and they already get most of the system.

>>96490166
>making dex and attacking stat as if swinging your sword like a limp-wristed fop versus being a -IQ brute makes a difference.
You aren't a limp-wristed anything. Dexterity as an attacking stat, particularly for melee, represents precision. You don't swing a rapier wildly, you strike precisely. A monk is not just a brawler, they use technique and precision to strike pressure points and vital areas rather than bludgeoning someone to death.

Meanwhile, using strength to attack is raw power. You're hitting hard and imparting greater force, with bladed weapons to cut into a foe, with blunt weapons to crush a foe's body like tissue paper.

It's called Dexterity most often for a reason; it's manual dexterity, precision, and nimbleness, where as strength is raw force and power.

Furthermore, it allows for gameplay diversity; if all melee weapons scale on Strength, you get a very flat game where all melee characters pump their strength while all ranged characters pump their Dexterity or whatever the ranged stat is, and there's little to no weapon variety.

For example, my Modern Fantasy system takes things a step further; Ranged Weapons fall under the Marksmanship stat, Melee and Explosives (which are heavier and require greater strength to wield or throw further) fall under Might, while Fortitude dictates Unarmed ability, mainly for the sake of mechanical diversity and making it so that one stat is not the "God" stat. Agility can also be used for any weapon with the [Nimble X] Tag, which grants its X value as a bonus to initiative, being either lightweight and fast to draw or designed for quick deployment or readying, and some Natural Weapon options for Species can use Might in place of Fortitude for Unarmed Weapon Attacks, with Spell Attacks being dictated by the Spellcraft Stat plus a Skill determined by the CLass/Specialty used. Mechanical diversity is important in TTRPGs.

>>96465923
Strength is a stupid attribute because it's so easy to change

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>>96496386
Since we're using D&D as the backdrop, whether or not you swing your rapier like a fly swatter or can pierce the eye of a roll of coins thrown in the air can be represented by your proficency and access to weapon skills.

Either way, it all requires physical strength

Max Health
Energy (like magic-points/stamina)
Willpower (resists certain things, also increases some sources of health and energy regeneration)
Melee
Ranged
Unarmed (also governs maneuvers like disarming or pushing something, occasionally used for something similar to a strength roll)
Dodge (adds to AC)
Movement
Stealth
Perception
Medicine
Charisma
Spellpower (adds to most spells)
Knowledge (intentionally broad, since I find that stuff like history is overly specific and rarely used when compared to something more broad like perception or charisma)

There are no skills or sub-skills

>>96496470
>Since we're using D&D as the backdrop
Nobody said that. But since you want to...
>whether or not you swing your rapier like a fly swatter or can pierce the eye of a roll of coins thrown in the air can be represented by your proficiency and access to weapon skills.
Ah, but you see, Skills and Proficiency represent training. Your Stats represent actual hard physical traits. It doesn't matter if you have proficiency with Greatswords, if you have a -1 STR modifier, you're going to be shit with them.
>Either way, it all requires physical strength
...In real life. However, TTRPGs are not real life. They are games. And thus, they require balance.

I can tell you're bad at reading (probably a bot), but I'll humor you. Who cares what is realistic? Game balance is more important. Mechanical diversity is more important. If Strength is the only Attribute that influences Melee, then all Melee characters will have the exact same build. However, adding weapons that can spec off of Agility/Dexterity/Speed/Whatever the system uses adds layers. It adds mechanical diversity. It creates new playstyles. And that is not only good, but ideal for the health of any game. Systems that have objective best playstyles/builds with no reason to play certain builds are bad systems.

Why do people worship vlaakith or shar if they suck so much.

>>96497946
Except the result in the context of DnD is that Dex ends up being a better stat overall, since in addition to being great for skills and ranged weapons, you can still use melee when you need to. Meanwhile, a Strength based character only really excels at climbing/jumping and hitting people with a big sword.

Balance and mechanical diversity are all well and good, but you don't achieve that by having one stat just be a better version of another 90% of the time.

>>96496452
some people are innately stronger than others.

>>96475193
There is always Lancer, where agility is by far the worst stat

>>96476395
The Abyss within had luck give you higher item level gear, and bigger booster packs that you build your character deck from. Luck was a god stat in that game and all the stats mattered.

>>96465923
I would add a new question
>Does your stat system apply to all your creatures?
I see stuff like >>96466479 or >>96472381 and wonder how it would work on non-human character.
Don't know much about RPG to be honest

>>96494231
>>96495840
And I'm the other guy. I like your system, by the way.
>As someone who didn't grow up with TTRPGs but rather was heavily into gamedev growing up, I just wanted a simple system that could support complex situations, and when vidya does that it's usually through compound stats.
>My favorite part is that I can just sit down with new players for like 20min and they already get most of the system.
These are the exact same motives and influences I had when designing mine, but you've totally got me beaten on the second front. The active/passive/neutral thing is very cool and easy to grasp.

>I'll be honest I have no idea what sort of game would use
I'm hoping I'll end up making something that's almost as simple as EZD6 but with more mechanical choices on offer during character creation and better suitability for long-term campaign play. You know, one a them fantasy adventure games.
I have a table that elaborates on my proposed degrees of success that could maybe make my intentions a bit clearer, but I'll have to post that later when I'm home from work.

>>96465923
I really think you need a few more attributes bro, how about adding in Moxie, Chutzap and A Certain Je Ne Sais Quois?

>>96506758
>A Certain Je Ne Sais Quois
>A
Your Anarchism, your ability to reject coercive conventions such as meaningful Attributes name
>Certain
Your ability to remain unflinching in your action
>Je
Your sense of identity, your presence
>Ne
Your ability to negate things
>Sais
Your savoir, your intellect
>Quois
Your open-mindedness

The game would obviously bet set in France and be about ruling a political party built on the cult of its leader, you would call the populace to burn the authoritarian democracy to the ground, suck your countries' wealths, prevent any reform from being voted, all until you reach the one true goal: Stand tall upon a high-hill (of ashes) looking like the paragon of the weak fighting against tyranny!
that's how leftist look like in france yes

>>96465923
All that matters really is that ALL of the numbers must remain important to ALL characters. If your character can just dump and ignore most of those numbers in order to function with just one or fewer... then your system fucking sucks.

Keep those numbers important for everyone. Period. No exceptions.

Therefore, take care when naming them, because the name will influence how you conceptualize their function in the system. Make sure you name them such that they automatically give an intuitive expectation that they affect something relevant to all characters. Not "strength", but "force" instead: it's not your literal actual muscles, it's the effort you can put into things generally. Not "dexterity" but "finesse": it's not your finger's flexibility, it's the style of your general approach to tasks. Not "agility" but "speed": it's how fast you can take in and react to situations. Etc. Intelligence better govern your character's ability to learn, integrate and understand new information, such that it affects all your skills. ALL OF YOUR SKILLS. No, your warrior cannot just ignore intelligence, a smart fighter is better than an animal or else it's not a fucking character class and there's no such thing as a warrior because there is no sense in which training and practice can make you better at fighting stuff.

Let me know if you need help understanding this.

ALL YOUR RPG NEEDS IS
> ATTACK
> TOUGHNESS
> WOUNDS
> RANGE
Anything else is a note on your profile for RP purposes and nothing else. You get one quality like, "Can talk to people well," or, "Knower of lost lore and arcane secrets."

>>96490166
It really should just be an attack stat and how you get there is up to you and your weapon of choice. Cause really, it's the weapon that determines that anyway. Everyone has an idea of how they attack then builds stats around it. No one builds the stats then looks for their class and weapon unless you're doing random stats.

>>96465923
If I have say on a game or I'm using any homebrew rules, I take out the Personality stats (Int/Wis/Will/Cha/etc) and replace them with something physical. I do it to discourage someone rolling a 9 on int and speaking "Hurr durr I'm a bawbawion!" the entire game, or going "Well the smart thing is to do X, but I rolled a 10, so I do the stupidest thing on the planet."

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>>96497989
>Except the result in the context of DnD is that Dex ends up being a better stat overall
That's a specific D&D (and off-shoots) problem. It was already a topic in this thread. Just differentiate between DEX, AGI and a dedicated ranged attribute.

>>96512880
>Therefore, take care when naming them, because the name will influence how you conceptualize their function in the system.
Indeed, in the thread we've had a whole discussion about Agility & Dexterity, whether you need both or if they overlap, if having only one make it an obligatory stats and so on.

>Not "dexterity" but "finesse": it's not your finger's flexibility, it's the style of your general approach to tasks
That interpretation only stood globally if Agility isn't used precisely for that.
>Not "agility" but "speed": it's how fast you can take in and react to situations
I've read a few disagree with that interpretation here. It becomes an Initiative check that could be done by Perception type attributes.

>>96465923
>2012+13
>Not balancing your humors