What is the Lawful Good action here?
>>92577137Kill Janeway in self defense.
>>92577137Depends on the laws of the society. This is a very niche situation though and I doubt there is much precedent or common consensus on the matter so it'd be hard to run inline with or against what would be considered lawful good. I mean this is just the trolley problem with a different coat of paint which is designed to be a conundrum that is hard to be unquestionably right or wrong about.
He's alive, his "parents" aren't. Only an insane utilitarian, so any given utilitarian, would see it as gaining two people from one person. It's murder with the chance at resurrection and should not have been attempted. Plus look at that drip. You're going to kill a man with such a swag coat?
>>92577137What happened was the only “good” aligned choice.Tuvix was an abomination and the result of an experimental scientific mistake whose so-called life was the result of two others who could be salvaged. The only path that follows good and righteous morals was to separate Tuvok and Neelix because it was possible and reverse the mistake.Anyone who disagrees is retarded or baiting.
>>92577137Use the transporter to clone him, because that's also something that's been done before. Then split one of the clones apart. Bonus points if you can do it all during the same transporter process.
Erase the federation from history. It's for luddites anyways.
>>92577137He is a new and entirely different being from Tuvok and Sneedlix. He has the same rights as any member of the federation, and expressly and clearly stated his desire to not be destroyed. The crew's decision to split him was not only murder but expressly unlawful.As such the only Lawful Good action would be to defend Tuvix's right to exist, and if Janeway still splits him, to relive Janeway of command even if it's by force.
>>92577270This, 100%. It only seems to require an ion storm or the like to make a transporter clone, heads, or tails if they turn out evil or become a terrorist though.
>>92577137Law says don't murder.Good says don't murder.
>>92577270Jesus Christ you couldn't force me into a transporter if the alternative was death.(Also, if not in one step, what about the transporter clone you kill?)
>>92577233He has no parents, he's a composite of two accidental donors. He's a chimerical Adam Frankenstein whose parts need to be returned to their non-consenting donors in order to prevent their deaths. He isn't even alive without their parts; this isn't a Sim situation where he has agency of his own, his agency is literally their agency. Nobody ever suggests reconstituting him, or finding a way to do so that doesn't involve killing the donors next time, because he isn't alive, and doesn't die. You're arguing for the multiple personalities of a brain-damaged patient to be given voting rights here.More to the point, the lawful good here is clear, as the legal precedent is set during Spock's Brain, where the stakes were the death of an individual or the death of a civilization if that individual were restored, even though this destroyed the MorEwok's underground computer house. Tuvix, neither a true individual nor acceptable under Federation law (being a genetically enhanced individual, he cannot serve in Starfleet), was no great loss. Just ask Kes how happy she was not to have the giant idiot hitting on her.
>>92577542Murder requires the intent to deprive a living individual of life. But Tivo isn't unalive after the procedure to separate him, he's part of Tuvok and Neelix, neither of whom wants him to exist again, and both of whom have an absolute inside track on what Tits'n'blow would have wanted, because they were it
>>92577137A lesser paladin may make the mistake of letting Tuvix live not understanding that they've condemned Tuvok to an unjust lifetime sentence of Neelix
>>92577547It really shouldn't be an issue, because you can also keep people stored within a transporter buffer for decades. Scotty did that to himself on purpose in order to survive being stranded, so you can likewise keep the two clones of Tuvix de-materialized, and then only re-materialize the clone when you're ready to separate it. At that point, the clone especially would never technically be alive, because it'd be a collection of data in the transporter's computer that has yet to materialize into an actual physical person. To say that the clone should be still be considered because it could potentially be materialized is to acknowledge that Tuvok and Neelix deserve it even more, because they can also now both be materialized from that data, while having their own lives to get back to. Ultimately though it's the best answer to give all three men the best shot at life.
>>92577137Janeway did the right thing. The abomination was intolerable
>>92577790Is there anything the transporter CANT do?>can grant immortality S6E7 TNG>do dbz-esque fusions of people S2E24 Voyager>create evil clones of people S1E5 TOS>create normal clones of people S6E24 TNG>perfect form of stasis for sentient life S6E4 TNG>dimensional travel >time travel
>>92577137Everyone dies constantly in the setting and you could make endless copies of them with the transporters if you wanted to.Normal morality breaks down pretty quickly.
>>92578098Can it make Alice Eve's sexy scientist fall in love with me?
>>92577137Stop whining, there´s a universe he rose to captain.
The problem doesn't exist in a world with the objective morality required for alignments to exist. A lawful good character would simply never face the problem - they exist in entirely different narrative contexts.>>92577304Defend Tuvix's life in a way that wouldn't apply to a sentient parasite or cancer. Neelix and Tuvak weren't dead, their consciousnesses persisted - they had memories of the incident (as noted by Tuvak's reaction when he is brought back) This, in essence, makes them less dead than a patient in a coma.
>>92577137Have Tuvix program a hologram clone of himself, then go through the splitting procedure, so lives on through the hologram.Alternatively, there's no reason they couldn't clone him like >>92577270 mentioned.Then proceed to split the original and bring the clone out of the transport buffer right after to help keep continuity. Also, was there any reason they couldn't have just bred orchids on the ship to be able to pull off the fusion process anytime it was convenient for the plot? I can see it being a controversial (even in universe) solution for all kinds of situations (too little air left on the ship, start fusing people, etc). I can't remember if the planet's atmosphere was part of the "formula" but if they could duplicate the atmosphere of the hell-planet in sick-bay, they could do so for the orchid one for the transporter room.
>>92577547>what about the transporter clone you killWhat about the billions of other clones who live and die constantly for casual teleporter trips?
>>92577137Gary Gygax thought that the only thing that kept Hitler from being LG was hurting humans instead of orcs. He explicitly endorsed slavery and genocide as 'good ' actions. Since tuvix wasn't human he had no moral agency (ie had a fixed alignment ) thus his life has no value.
>>92577137You have so much bullshit tech. Figure out a way to save all three.
>>92577137>What is the Lawful Good action here?Declone Tuvix. Kill Neelix. Congratulate Tuvok. Fuck Kes.
Neelix was fucking a two year old, killing him is lawful good
>>92579162Gary Gygax was inconsistent and can't be used as anything except an example of how not to be a DM. Or Businessman. Or even just a person.For every Gygax quote you pedantically put on a pedestal, there's another Gygax quote that contradicts it. Guy had zero integrity, didn't think any of his ideas through, and often just catered to what he thought his audience wanted to hear.
>>92577270this guy gets italso Star Trek is trash
>>92578727> Neelix and Tuvak weren't deadLet’s say that someone discovered a way to bring your dead parents back to life at the cost of your own life.Tell me how him doing so is different than what Janeway did.He was a sapient being who expressly did not want to die. And the idea of killing him to bring two dead people back to life was sufficiently clear-cut that the EMH, programmed to be as ethical as possible, flat refused to kill Tuvix.
>>92578874They don’t exist because transporters don’t work that way. It is expressly stated in-series that the person who steps off the transporter pad is the same person as the person who stepped onto it, that it was proven fact.*How* they proved it, I don’t know. If I could answer that then I wouldn’t need to hang out on 4chan. But the fact is that they DID prove it.
Destroy the Feds, Romulans, borg and dominion in glorious battle. Glory to the Klingon Empire. Proceed to create more klingons with hot klingon battle sex
>>92577270If the product of a transporter accident has any right to life, then by this solution you're murdering the clone.
>>92582352>Tell me how him doing so is different than what Janeway did.Easily: I'm not an entity whose existance depends on the (non-consentual) death of my parents. Not going to pretend it's a clear-cut feelgood problem. But when you consider that Neelix and Tuvak were, in fact, not gone and were, in fact, capable of creating memories - they were not dead. Tuvix is just breathing with their lungs. To imply otherwise fixates on corporeality as the sole critia of life (which is objectively wrong in Trek) and frames the entire argument in such a way wherein the EMH is 'dead' every time he deactivates.Again, what separates Tuvix from a sentient parasite or cancer? Unfortunately we never got the 'Data gets a sentient virus from torrenting subspace pornography' episode, so we'll never have truly conclusive answers regardless. But Kirk's galpraxian tapeworm wanted to live just as much as everything else.The EMH is specifically programmed to do no harm. Medical ethics are not the same as universal ethics - they're also what stops him from attempting an overly risky surgery on a patient, even if it improves his chances of survival. He should not be treated as a compass for pure universal right and wrong.
>>92577270I've said this before. I demand credit
>>92577137Two men are dying and they need his perfectly healthy heart to clone and transplant. He will die from the procedure.It's the same scenario.
>>92582381They just agreed that continuity of memory is all it takes to qualify as "sane person" so assuming the transporter clones don't have any missing time between the 'original' being annihilated and them being constructed out of available molecules as the drstination, they are the same person. Nevermind that it can easily transport spawn multiple copies, all of which are legally and morally the original.
>>92582533See >>92577790At that point, they're all just data in the computer. The data can either be born as a clone, or as two people who already exist. And given that the extra set of data in this scenario would be created purely for the purposes of bringing back the two, then there's no reason to rematerialize the data as a brand new clone.
>>92577137The amalgam only has a right to life as an extention of the other two. You are validating the lives of the previous two by extending that to the amalgam kind of like grandfather laws. If there is an option to separate the amalgam & bring the originals back healthy then that's the only right option. Extending option off of that is MORE just, but that doesn't mean that any other option is unjust. So clone the amalgam if you want, but separate the two if possible as a matter of course. Just because bad things happen doesn't mean things stop being "good" or "lawful"
>>92577137They should have genocided the ferengi
>>92577137Federation law clearly calls this murder. So the Lawful Good action would be to allow him to live. However, Janeway is neither lawful or good. This isn't even her worst crime.
>>92578727>Defend Tuvix's life in a way that wouldn't apply to a sentient parasite or cancerNo. If cancer were sapient, it would also have a right to live, just like anybody.
>>92577137All 3 of them niggas were inhuman aliens so Janeway can do whatever she wants with them.
>>92577790It should be noted that being stored in a transporter buffer is highly risky as it requires said buffer to operate perfectly. The other person stored with Scotty had their pattern too degraded to be rematerialized and Scotty's pattern had also suffered degradation.
>>92582450>draw scantily clad ST alien chicks>the Ferengi isn't an actual Ferengi chick covered by strategically placed environmental objects
>>92585850Scotty was also being cycled in the buffer for decades though, so it's clearly not that risky.You aren't trying to store anyone in the buffer in the long term though. Tuvix would be cloned, but only the clone would stored. Tuvix himself would be re-materialized as normal, so there's no danger to him regardless. By Star Trek standards, this level of technobabble from an engineering officer to solve a problem wouldn't be too difficult. It's mainly that it relies on knowledge of these sorts of niche transporter accidents and whether the Voyager's computer would be able to pull up the details well enough to re-create it all. All of this is mostly to say that if the writers wanted to avoid killing Tuvix while bringing back Tuvok and Neelix, all of the tools to justify it were already there.
>>92578727You assume I wouldn't protect the life of a self-aware cancer-being and don't routinely advocate for the continued existence and in fact proliferation of parasites. You tried to do an emotional appeal, not a logical or ethical appeal, and it fell flat because I know enough to not default to a blind disgust at trigger words.
Tuvok is black. Leaving them merged would be an evil act toward Neelix.
>>92586018Parasites are by definition harmful to their hosts. If you're trying to make an ethical argument for not splitting Tuvix based on that line of ethical thinking then you're not even having the same conversation.
>>92578098It can't make a lazy hack writer good
>>92583669She's a good example of True Neutral. She has higher priorities than any sort of code of conduct.
>>92586096Buddy you don't even know what a parasite IS. It's a symbiote that lives on or in another organism from which it extracts something it needs to survive. The ETHICAL argument is about the sanctity of actually existing current life versus the sanctity of potential hypothetical past or future life. Which you categorically fail. Parasites are cool and you are garbage.
>>92586217>It's a symbioteDefinitionally parasites aren't symbiotes. Symbiotic relationships and parasitic relationships are two different things.
It's inherently flawed to judge a complex moral dilemma from the meta standpoint of knowing what happens after a choice is made. We get to know what happens when they split. They were guessing. This always fucks up movie/tv dilemmas, we get to know whether it worked or not.
>>92586129Janeway is a clear example of Chaotic Evil and one of the most believable women I've ever seen put to the screen.
>>92586301This is how I know you haven't had a STEM class since 8th grade. Shut up, dumbass.
>>92577614>the multiple personalities of a brain-damaged patient to be given voting rightsI think that's based desu ne.
>>92577137Kill Janeway.
>>92578560There's a universe where Barclay randomized selection too.
>>92586526This is really easily solved by you having a quick google search and seeing the definition of both words.
>>92583618So you would kill one totally self aware, unique, living being to save two. Two to save four? One million to save two million?
>>92590619All things being equal, yes. Ideally the one should be willing to sacrifice himself to save two, but not everyone is gracious like that.Also, how sacrificed is the amalgam? I don’t think they got into how their memories got transferred, but if the Tuvok and Neelix remember being Tuvix, then he isn’t really dead. At best Tuvix would be a shared experience.
>>92577137There is no law in the Delta Quadrant. The Prime Directive held no sway over the crew of Voyager and lord knows they made some horribly immoral choices.
In TNG, Worf was asked to be a ribosome donor for a Romulan who was going to die without it. There was no risk to him, it would be like a blood donation. He refused, because he fucking hates Romulans. Even though he was guilt-tripped by the ship's doctor, and even though Picard worried that the death of the Romulan might lead to increased tensions with the Romulan Empire that could in turn lead to war, he stuck to his guns and let the Romulan die. It was presented as the correct course of action to allow Worf's autonomy over his own body, even with all the potential fallout and complete lack of risk to himself, instead of ordering him to allow the donation.Janeway is a murderer.
>>92580630Based sounds like a certain God Emperor
>>92592919>but if the Tuvok and Neelix remember being TuvixWe don't know whether or not they do. The episode ends before it can be addressed. Tuvix did not talk like a conjoined being the way Vegito did. He wasn't two minds in one body, he was one mind in one body just like anyone else. He considered himself to be a wholly distinct person - not a fusion of Tuvok and Neelix, but the offspring of both.>Ideally the one should be willing to sacrifice himself to save twoBut this isn't "saving". Tuvok and Neelix are dead, and Tuvix is alive. This isn't a noble sacrifice, it's a blood ritual to power necromancy.
>>92582922>Tuvix is just breathing with their lungsNot entirely. The episode takes place over the course of several weeks. Now granted neither Tuvok nor Neelix are human, but if their cell reproduction is anything like a human's then by the end of the episode many fo Tuvix's cells were never possessed by Tuvok or Neelix but were instead created by him, for him. He also possessed distinct memories that neither Tuvok nor Neelix ever had.>Again, what separates Tuvix from a sentient parasite or cancer?First, both of those would be considered sapient and have the inherent right to live under Federation law.Second, he doesn't depend upon a host body. Tuvok and Neelix do not exist anymore; there is never once the suggestion that their consciousnesses endure inside of Tuvix, with Tuvix as simply a third personality in control of the body. Tuvix is not a parasite or cancer, he is an actual living person.I mean this kind of situation isn't even beyond Star Trek; there are sapient species in Star Trek where every member of a given generation dies before the next generation is born, like the Horta. If you could kill a Horta of one generation to bring back to life a Horta from a previous generation, would that be ethical? What if you really, really liked the dead Horta, does that make it ethical all of a sudden?
>>92583467>They just agreed 1, That's not "proving" anything.2. You're also just plain wrong, because Star Trek isn't that kind of show.Transporters are not suicide booths, and anyone who tries, in seriousness, to argue otherwise, is a faggot.
>>92594654Rent free, as expected of election tourists.
>>92577169Spock's replacement and the doctor went through this in The Motion Picture. They died. Logically, Tuvix is a mistake and is the "death" of two people.
>>92577169Remember when Barclay found the space worms in the transporter and it turned out they were people? Tuvix is the equivalent of leaving them space worms forever.
>>92596423>it's a blood ritual to power necromancyAnd what's wrong with blood ritual powered necromancy?
>>92577137The only proper LG response is that it's the result of miscegenation, so it needs to die.
>>92596763The part where you kill an innocent man who has expressed a desire to live and who is under no obligation to give up his life for people who are already dead.>>92596759Tuvix is the equivalent of leaving them as space worms forever when they have expressly told you that they desire to be space worms forever.>>925967521. Spock's katra was preserved in McCoy as a separate entity. There's no question that it needs to be removed as soon as is feasible, no one denies that. The original intent was to go to Vulcan (the planet) to have this happen, but then an opportunity to have his katra placed in a living body was presented thanks to the Genesis planet. 2. The physical body on the Genesis Planet isn't a person, as he's incapable of higher thought or reasoning; he's an animal that's shaped like a half-Vulcan.The situation is very different.
>>92577542>don't murderLawful says don't murder because murder is specifically unlawful killing. Lawful killings like executions are fine. Good can murder as much as needed, Evil can murder as much as wanted and chaos can only kill if the killing is murder.
>>92577137Destroy all Transporters and ban their use throughout the known galaxy, because those things are way too much fucking trouble. Way too many shenanigans with those things.>But if you get rid of Transporters, than-Don't care, get rid of them.As for that thing? I dunno, shoot it into a star or something. It came from a Transporter, so it can't be good.
>>92577137Modify transported so it splits them into 3 separate entities.
>>92597294>of leaving them as space worms forever when they have expressly told you that they desire to be space worms forever.i agree. this is pretty much the same argument i make when i explain that mind control and brainwashing is good, i'm glad i finally found someone who shares my perspective
>>92577137Transporter duplicate but splitting one of them back into Tuvok and Neelix. As long as you do this before the patterns form then it's technically not an abortion under Federation law.
>>92597294>>92597980The fun thing is we know that they have ancient vulcan Katras preserved, even Surak himself, which means they could whip up a clone body to house his Vulcan soul similar to Spock. Then for shits and giggles have him and the clone of Kahless hired as talking head commentators on the Federation News Network.>"This action by the Federation Council is completely illogical.">"I agree. Totally lacking in honor whatsoever."
>>92597294>Tuvix is the equivalent of leaving them as space worms forever when they have expressly told you that they desire to be space worms forever.Pretty much this. Him claiming his desire not to die really doesn't matter when his existence is the result of an accident. Someone could have a talking tumor that desired to simply continue existing and doing as it is naturally inclined to do, but that doesn't mean it is entitled to live at the expense of others. Tuvix is a parasitic entity that requires the sacrifice of two other living beings that also simply wish to live. Tuvix's opinion doesn't fucking matter because he is inherently inclined to demand the thing that allows him to continue existing at someone else's expense.
>>92577137>Tuvix happens>Documented transporter accident made two Rikers years prior to thisThe answer to this was obvious in hindsight
>>92577137For Tuvix to volunteer for the separation.
>>92605936>Tuvix is a parasitic entityTo be a parasite he'd have to be attached to another, distinct organism. Please feel free to point that organism out in any scene containing Tuvix.>when his existence is the result of an accidentThe existence of the nanites in "Evolution" was also the result of an accident, yet as soon as it was reaized that the nanites were self-aware the idea of killiing them was immediately off the table unless it proved totally impossible to communicate with them or there was no other way to protect the Enterprise.>but that doesn't mean it is entitled to live at the expense of othersAnd he isn't. Tuvok and Neelix are dead. He *came to life* at the expense of others, but that wasn't his choice or his fault. He is not *living* at the expense of Tuvok or Neelix because they no longer exist to extract any expense from.
Split the being into three equal sections with a Bat'leth.Then make use of some sticky notes and a marker to identify which chunk belongs to which entity.
>>92578098Whenever you make a transporter clone, there is often an amount of additional matter in the way of the transportation which is sucked up by the transporter and used to create the clone.
>>92577169>Depends on the laws of the society.he asked for lawful good, not for lawful neutral
>>92577137Dematerialize enough raw matter to gain enough raw materialsto rematerialize the Neelix and Tuvok in the transporter buffer, making all three live
>>92577137which traditional game are you discussing?
>>92610614GURPS
>>92610614Presumably Dungeons & Dragons or one of its spinoffs, given the explicit mention of the "Lawful Good" alignment, and alignment being principally a D&D thing.Dumb question, really. Yours, not OP's.
>>92610631>>92610672No.
>>92577137Solomon's commandBisect the fucker
>>92610614retard
>>92611014Yes.I know you want to fit in, but this is not it.
>>92611087>wisdom of Solomon is just cutting things in half
>>92606982>Please feel free to point that organism out in any scene containing Tuvix.It's the organism that makes up his entire being.>NanitesSeparate entities that don't need to kill the crew of the ship in order to survive. Notice how that episode's problem solved itself through communication between intelligent entities that didn't need to threaten each other?>Tuvok and Neelix are dead. Not according to the fucking episode they aren't. Seeing as they came back when Tuvix was separated.
From my understanding of the natural law advocated by the Church Fathers, you could do a surgery that resulted in death as a side effect but you couldn't do something with the main goal of killing someone. EG a pregnant woman could take a cancer drug that resulted in a miscarriage as a side-effect but not get an abortion for convenience or because Chad wouldn't marry her or whatever. I think you could apply that to Tuvix as well. You do the surgery to fix Tuvok and Neelix and Tuvix disappearing is just a side-effect. >>92582381I do feel like you have to just not think about transporters too deeply. EG why no one creates transporter clones on purpose or uses them to teleport enemies into space.
>>92611155well, they broke my wisdom teeth in half before removing them, I guess it's fitting
>>92588333A symbiote is ANY organism living in CLOSE INTIMACY with any other organism. A parasite is a symbiote. The classification of symbiotes is parasite, commensalist, mutualist. You are taking about mutualism and using the wrong word, the way people who don't know shit from fuck do. A dictionary records popular use, not utilitous use, or rigorous use, or precise use, or even historically consistent use. It is not a final declaration of Truth and never claims to be, you fucking retard.
>>92605936All living is at the expense of others. You don't hold a consistent position.
>>92611112retard
>>92611139No.
>>92611527The dictionary determines what words mean, end of.
>>92611574This is the most retarded rebuttal you could have offered. Tuvix didn't eat Tuvok and Neelix.
>>92611607Social consensus of speakers, or their egregore if you will, determines what words mean, dictionaries just try keep up cataloguing those definitions.
>>92611261> It's the organism that makes up his entire being.Yes, his one being, attached to no other organisms. That’s definitionally not a parasite.> Separate entities that don't need to kill the crew of the ship in order to surviveNeither does Tuvix. He doesn’t kill people to survive. He didn’t even kill people to be born. His birth *resulted* in people dying, but he did not choose to do that even in a nonsapient capacity.> Not according to the fucking episode they aren'tYes, according to the episode, they are. Neither Tuvok nor Neelix are suggested to still exist in anything other than an aspirational capacity, and that on the part of their coworkers who’ve decided they value their lives more than Tuvix’s. Tuvok and Neelix no longer have thoughts, they no longer have feelings, and they no longer have bodies. In no measurable, discernible way do they exist or live. But Tuvix does. He has his own thoughts, his own feelings, his own desires, his own memories, and since the episode takes place over several weeks em he even has his own distinct cells that were never part of either Tuvok or Neelix’s bodies. > Seeing as they came back when Tuvix was separated.Yes, coming back from the dead does require a “dead” component. Doesn’t change that they’re dead.
>>92612442>Tuvix didn't eat Tuvok and Neelix.You have no clue what happened in that matter stream! What happens in the pattern buffer stays in the pattern buffer.
>>92612654>hm, I wonder if this thing gives good succ
>>92586593Many have tried...and FAILED! Ask the Borg Queen. Do you dare, young master?
>>92612510Everything you've said is objectively incorrect. You literally did not understand the episode at all and are making up a headcanon so you can be correct. Got it.
>>92577137The lawful course of action would be to replicate the transporter accident until the processes behind it were fully understood. Then it would be time to establish a biological collective and merge the entire crew into a complement of highly capable staff serving under an Emergency Command Hologram. They could them seek out new life and absorb them into the Federation, further expanding the capabilities of the crew whilst acting in full accordance with the Prime Directive.
>>92607232Lawful good still cares about the laws of society. That is literally the point of all ‘lawful’ alignments. The good/neutral/evil axis simply informs what that person tries to accomplish within the confines of societies laws, because they all do follow them.
>>92619566It's lawful good, not lawful neutral.
>>92582450ROMULAN SEXO
>>92585880Ehm, excuse me, that is her drinking hat. It's a party.
>>92611527Based factual anon
>>92619566Lawful does not nor at any point cared about the law of every given society at any given point. If only for the fact that it's impossible to know how a judge in Zimbabwe would rule regarding a decision about a guy fucking your chickens. If you think Lawful is the alignment that cares about that, then literally every Lawful character needs a law degree or equivalent.
>>92586217>>92611527Lumping Parasites in with Symbiotes was modern apologia by disgusting geeks defending their disgusting hobby.
>>92629849My take was a little more reductionist>Lawful: The best way to live is within an organized society; traditions, legalism, strict rites and observances.>Lawful Good: The best way to be benevolent is through an organized society. A romantic version of Charlemagne, bringing pagan tribes under his rule might be an example.>Lawful Evil: The best way to serve your own interests is through an organized society. A romantic version might be some Mafia family with strict traditions and rules that take advantage of society to protect themselves from incarceration whilst taking advantage of laws to exploit others without repercussion.It gets a little screwy when you start adding in supernatural entities and various groups that dabble in metaphysics such as priests and occultists. Their ideas of Alignment don't really conform directly to human or demihuman society, rather some higher order of Law or Good and Evil.That's how I used to handle it when I ran a game, though it did not prevent the occasional alignment debate, especially in regard to the typical "Paladin falls because he farted in an elevator" bullshit that midwit fedoras liked to play up.
>>92578035So was Neelix
>>92577137I'm not entirely sure what the Lawful Good solution to the Tuvix situation would be, but I *do* know what the Chaotic Good solution would be:>put tuvix in transporter>beam tuvix into buffer>copypaste a perfect tuvix copy from the buffer>transport this perfect tuvix copy out of the buffer>the perfect tuvix copy rematerializes and survives>detangle neelix, tuvok and that stupid flower from the ("original") tuvix copy in the buffer into their original discrete selves>neelix, tuvok and the flower rematerialize and surviveYou now have both of your original crewmembers -- Tuvok & Neelix (and that stupid flower) -- plus an additional third crewmember -- Tuvix -- who blends their traits into a very well-balanced person with a wide array of skills.Remembering such transporter hijinx as the Thomas Riker storyline from Star Trek: The Next Generation, et cetera, the whole Tuvix story fell apart as lazy writing.>for that matter why not just have copies of every crewmember from every trip they took through the transporter regularly backed up and ready to be "rematerialized" in the event of death?I like Star Trek even though Star Trek sucks.
Pure murderReally should have written something else or a clean third option if you don't want me to hate a crew of murderers
>>92577137>His existence requires the death of two people.>Those two people can continue to live if the accident that created him is reversed.>"I'm not Tuvok or Neelix! I'm Tuvix!">Immediately pervs on Kes even though she's still mouring Neelix, who Tuvix apparently isn't.>"I'm not Tuvok or Neelix! I'm Tuvix!">But he can assume both their duties, because he's a totally separate and distinct individual, right?>Entire crew wants their friends back.>He kicks up a fuss and cries and calls them murderers because he's too stupid to realize that he's not a separate being, but a composite of three lifeforms made in an accident.>The only perfect solution (besides calling back to earlier transporter accidents and using their solutions) would have been to immediately reverse the problem (so that he could not form new experiences or attachments), but since they didn't know how, they did the best they could.They made the right call. Fuck Tuvix.>"TUVIX BODILY AUTONOMY! HE'S ALIVE THEY'RE DEAD AND THEIR WISHES DON'T MATTER"Neelix and Tuvok didn't seem to mind that they got to be alive again.
>>92645589One issue with that. You could make a Tuvix out of any other two crewmen. In every combination. That's around 22000 sentient beings that by no choice of their own don't exist, but could be brought into being by the push of a button, just from Voyager's crew alone. How is it moral to bring only Tuvix into existence this way, but deny existence to every other Tuvix that could exist this way?
>>92645727>Neelix and Tuvok didn't seem to mind that they got to be alive again.This is the most damning thing. Tuvix was a temporary personality made of a gestalt of both of them, and upon separating, neither of them said>why did you do that? We wanted to remain Tuvix! We wanted to keep being him! Put us back together!
>>92577137Do not commit murder. Murdering to undo a death is still murder.
>>92646929>gee starfleet, just because you made them functionally retarded doesn't mean they're any less alive than Data>nope, synthetics don't count. chuck 'em in the woodchipper
>>92645788Because Tuvix was an accident, but intentionally forcing many thousands of combined people to come into existence suddenly isn't.You might as well be asking:>How is it moral to bring only babies into existence through consensual sex between men & women, bit deny existence to every potential rape baby which could be produced through rape?
>>92577137restoring the two individual originals./threadAslo, pipeweed is categorically tobacco and named as such.
>>92645788Lower Decks bypassed the problem of the Tuvix-people deciding the only way to avoid being killed (after reading the Voyager logs) was to make the rest of the crew into the same so there would be a cohort of new people to resist.That got solved by tricking them into going through the transporter again, resulting in several people put together and the resulting biological mismatch of several aliens rendering it barely-functional and probably non-sentient.So then it became morally OK to split them up.
>>92583402>Two men are dying and they need his perfectly healthy heart to clone and transplant. He will die from the procedure.No, in this case it's more like a fucking alien from outer space came down and ripped out the hearts and brains from two healthy people, and it's possible to take back the hearts and brains and resurrect the dead people at the cost of the alien's life.Tuvix didn't appear out of thin air, he's a fucking super saiyan fusion dance of two other people who didn't consent to being murdered and who very much want to be split. Janeway did nothing wrong (as usual)
>>92590619>So you would kill one totally self aware, unique, living being to save two. Two to save four? One million to save two million?Killing an unrelated stranger to save two people is still wrong, as would be running around stabbing people and harvesting their organs even if it could theoretically save more lives, stop this retarded Utility Monster strawman. Tuvix is not a random person on the street, in this circumstance he's an accidental fusion of two people, and has no right to exist AT THE EXPENSE OF HIS CONSTITUENTS. If the two people had consented to permanent fusion and voluntarily gave up their lives to become Tuvix, fine, but that's not what happened
>>92648099This same show has the Videans, who are the literal embodiment of that example and even feature that exact plot, except with Lungs instead of hearts and brains. The Videans are fucking stupid and should be a shoot on sight species for the entire universe because they'd kill many to save the few.
>>92647905I agree with you. But also, in your example does that make Tuvix a rape baby?>>92648108Lower Decks was pretty cheeky about it, because it it left unanswered if T'lyn knew ahead of time that merging them again would render them unsentient. She hasn't volunteered that information, but there is the chance that she knew what she was doing.
>>92650662I think that was more a convergence of events, since T'lyn was beaming just as they were trying to create another Tuvixed crewmember. The flower being present still as she initiated the transport merged them all.Not 100% because she had to know what they were doing merging the crew, but she seemed legitimately confounded by the super blob mess.
>>92577137Sedate him so he is unconscious. Make adjustments to the transporter so that you duplicate Tuvix in the same way they did with Riker. Then separate one copy of Tuvix into Neelix and Tuvok. Old crew members get their lives back, Tuvix gets to live, and everyone wins.
