>>92592356
>tott
The Chechnya incident, it's pretty hard to top that imo

>>92592356
Beastgate has to be up there.

>>92592356
Gotta go with the OG one: Gypsies. Speaking of, is that in the mega? It’s gonna be worth plundering for mechanical ideas, at least.

which clans top and which ones bottom?

>>92592711
all of them are subs.

>>92592711
Top: Lasombra, Tzimisce
Bottom: Ventrue, Toreador, Tremere, Nosferatu, Gangrel, Giovanni, Setite
Vers: Brujah, Malkavian, Assamite, Ravnos

>>92592821
Please. Tzim likely flesh shape new orifices to take as many dicks as possible.

>>92592711
Realistically, that's an individual thing, not a clanwide thing.

>>92592711
With Sire/Childe relationships, blood bonds, & shit, it's all gay in different ways

>>92592854
The Sabbat, and consequently its two major clans, radiate top energy

That is to say, they're arrogant, cringy, edgy, and have the fragilest of egos

Daily games from vampire to homebrew.

https://discord.gg/67UrKxmD

>>92592356
I liked the w5 art one it was fun to laugh at paradox wolf and the search for the original pictures was like a weekly alternative reality game, just you know real and at the expense of its host

>>92592854
>tzim
> new orifices

>lasombra
>shadow tentacles
Ah now i see why those two are allied

just realized that you don't even get all the Camarilla clans in the v5 corebook lol like paradox really did just sell the complete (new) Camarilla experience as fucking literary DLC

>>92593580
Doesn’t v5 assume that your character is most likely a anarch neonate? So that was probably intentional

>>92593580
Yes, they did and people still bought it.
They later attempted to do a Player's Guide containing all remaining Clans and it was a shitty product (courtesy of once again Renegade).

Who even likes or respects the Anarchs? I get it, every ancilla feels the weight of the years, & tires of the Elder's sometimes trying commands, or the rebellious phantom heartbeat of a neonate might lead them that new blood is wiser than old blood. One might dabble in foolish independence but who would ever think they could stand against the Cam?

>>92594201
Retards love the underdog.

>>92594201
At least according to VtM Revised, Kindred are supposed to be Vampires first, Clan second and Sect a distant third. Personally I added a “zeroth” category of “People” too, but I think the main point is supposed to be that the overwhelming number of vampires, even up to Princes and Bishops, mostly just pay lip service to Sect, and live out their nights exactly as if neither existed. The power of the Camarilla comes more from the *perception* of their power than any actual ability to project that power.

So like the Prince of Boston talks a big game about being a part of the Camarilla and it’s laws and rules but ultimately barely ever hears from anyone higher up and feels free to completely ignore them whenever he wants.

In that sense the Anarchs are more just saying the quiet part out loud. Every Prince and Bishop just uses the *idea* of the Camarilla and the Sabbat to enforce what they wanted to do and how they wanted to do it anyway; the Anarch Barons just don’t try to hide it.

>>92594201
forget their chances against the Camarilla i still can't figure out a single good talking point the anarchs have. Every single one of the Camarilla traditions make sense and the rest (and sometimes even some of the traditions) is up to the prince/baron/leader/etc and the other local kindred in power so the problem is not the sect but that your local strongest(and mind you being charismatic enough to gain support is also a strenght as is being good at politics so a baron is still either the "strongest" guy around or a puppet) cainites is a dick who is unlikely to personally care about your survival and woes which won't change regardless of which sect you are in

also that camarilla itself does not ask shit of you, you don't have to pay taxes to elders in europa like the giovanni do and most kindred won't see a archon in their unlifes so again what's the problem?

the only thing the anarchs even in vtmb (a game with some of the worst of the camarilla in it) can bring up is population control which makes sense if you are a undead parasite species trying to hide your existence and that they been fine without the camarilla when they really really weren't because them being so unorganized is the reason why this is the only place the kuei-jin invasion worked

the kuei-jin also invaded mexico for example but ran away screaming when the sabbat introduced them to shovelhead, the feuding duo was enough to keep them out of chigago and if i remember correctly the kuei-jin that went to istanbul and russia just disappeared without a word

point being there are other supernaturals in the world that don't like kindred and anarchs can barely keep themselves from imploding and only if they have a charismatic leader so outside influences that other sects would laugh about are life and death things for them

so am i missing something or do they have no real point and offer no safety (either in laws or protection) to it's members?

>>92594459
> i still can't figure out a single good talking point the anarchs have.

“Just because you’re older than me doesn’t mean you should automatically be in charge of me”, is I believe the main Anarch throughline.

>>92594427
I'm sure a vampires daily life is largely free & unencumbered by the Cam, but you've got to account for how much indoctrination there is as a vampire. Just a sire picking a childe & then grooming them, introducing them into the society, etc. the Cam is the only structure in a neonates unlife that will protect them, teach them, & most importantly give them a social life that matters in the long run. It's quite literally a surrogate family & while you might be estranged or you might only get together for holidays, you still respect your grandma & steer clear of your weird uncle. And if your cousins see you doing something you shouldn't, like doing drugs, then your dad is gonna hear about it.

>>92594522
You’re describing sire, brood, and clan there - not sect. You can literally find all of what you described in a Setite cult, a Brujah gang or a Tzimisce fiefdom. The Camarilla and Sabbat add nothing here.

>>92594488
That's still not a very good talking point. Within the Camarilla, the only Kindred you have to take orders from is the Prince, and members of their court, acting upon their will. Ie: the Sheriff or the Seneschal. As well as your Primogen, but even that isn't an absolute legal "you must do this". Every other older vampire that can exercise power over you is the result of their connections and the fact that they usually are just straight up stronger than you due to age. You're not compelled to follow the orders of a vampire with a decade on you, and removing the Camarilla would just make this problem worse as there's no legitimate authority so it all devolves into who has the biggest dick. AND without the Traditions making vamp on vamp murder illegal, that decade older vampire can just kill you if you don't do what he says.

Anarchs have no points in their favor.

>>92594488
and that would make sort of sense if they would be in europa where primogen are called clan eldest, but most anarchs are in america where it's the norm for primogen aka the guys who are most likely (either in person or using their whip) to order you around under the pretence of showing "a united front as a clan" are voted into their office so that's like complaining about the president of a country being only in charge because they are old?

and prince is in charge for.. well the exact same reason as a baron, it's not like a prince is gonna stand down just because someone comes comes around after all

so again it's not a sect thing it's your boss being a asshole and that doesn't change if you go anarch the only thing that changes is that you are in the "in" if you manage to get territory, stay in charge and stay in the good graces of the new boss so it's the same thing as joining a gang because you want power and you don't think your country will give it to you (fast enough) and then thinking that your gang of 13 people should go to war with the united nations... while there are also half a dozen more united nations out there that all already want to kill you

>>92594618
*someone older comes around after all

>>92594571
Dad = Primogen/Sire
Cousins = other clan
Grandma = Prince

Whatever it's a metaphor. It doesn't matter, unless you are insular, your going to mix with the other neonates outside your clan. Far more than you're gonna mix with any of the elder's or even ancilla. Because of this the rules of the Cam are important from stopping dipshits from starting feuds.

What's your guy's personal idea of Golconda? You don't have to go into mechanical detail if you don't want to, but what effects do you imagine it has?

>>92594595
It's mostly the same are you cammy or anarch: the most powerful (and therefore usually the oldest) vampire has control, and you have to keep in line or greet the sun. Anarchs just word it differently than Camarilla does, and so I think they mostly define themselves in contradiction to Camarilla.

Only the full weight of the Camarilla keeps me from slaughtering every slimy wop pizzashit Giovanni I come across, or deepdicking every Malk girl. Remember it's not rape if she sees a vision of it first

>>92594459
>anarchs can barely keep themselves from imploding and only if they have a charismatic leader
That's a narrative trope; one chosen, consciously or not, by the writers. Not a universal truth that can't but make it into the fiction.
As I've been saying for a while: the issue is that anarchs are never presented as anything but petulent children, with no working political institutions of their own.
The trouble is that giving them that would basically kill the mood of the game as it exists. I've tried it last years with friends - working something out of libertarian municipalism into something more fitting vampires, and while interesting in its own right, it basically turned the game into Hardcore Condominium Syndicate RPG. Which, while it has political potential, is leaving to be desired in term of gothic, punk, or gothic-punk (I guess Hot Fuzz proved you can iron the gothic back in if needed).

Another issue is that, well, it's something that's plagued WW from inception: the plight of having to write intelligent and educated people well beyond the writer's grasp, whether the subject happens to be historical, religious or political.
We're to believe that beings with supernatural capacities that far exceeds human's cannot devise basic modern low scale institutions. Which can help make up for good stories, but leaves to be desired on other fronts.

>>92594709
It's tough to write out but basically, a Vampire Bodhisattva. You're Humanity 10+ and you're motivated by a kind of universal love. You're still a predator, you still feed on people or animals, but you're no longer motivated to do harm (nor are you particularly attached to any group of individuals). You never Frenzy, and it's the next best thing to becoming Human again (e.g. you can sorta endure sunlight, enjoy food and other pleasures like a Thinblood). That's the interpretation I prefer, I never liked Revised's edgy "you become the Ultimate Predator" take.

>>92594769
Go forth and slaughter, my friend!
Just remember to send me some of their books.

>>92594779
Honestly, if the only way to redeem the Anarchs is to rewrite them to such a degree that they're basically an entirely different thing, I'd rather just be rid of them entirely myself.

Though I'll defend the general disfunction of vampire societies. Vampires are much harder to manage than humans, and the only thing that can manage them are other vampires. They're all torn between need to be social and their need for power and blood. Individuals within this government have wildly different levels of strength and powers that practically turns any law into a suggestion, even if enforced. Humans struggle to keep our own governments going for a few centuries in continuity, I can't see immortal vampires with supernatural powers doing much better at it, not matter how smart they are. You'd need to reinvent political theory from the ground up, and frankly we all know political theory is theory for a reason, it rarely works in practice. The most successful vampire political structures are clan-based, like that of the Ventrue and Tremere, because it's primitive and they don't care much about the negative consequences of such a unifying principle.

>>92594709
Simple. Golconda undoes the the angels' curses, so you are now a day-walking, fire-tolerating, food-eating cainite.

>>92594769
Honestly if I were Prince I'd let my subjects slaughter Giovanni freely. As well as Setites. Open season on the lot of them. Hell, if you swear a blood oath to me I may even let you diablerize them on the down-low.

No raping though.

>>92594201
the writers are big government stooges that think they're anarchists so they wrote the book nudging you towards playing one

>>92594459
>point being there are other supernaturals in the world that don't like kindred and anarchs can barely keep themselves from imploding and only if they have a charismatic leader so outside influences that other sects would laugh about are life and death things for them

that's only true if you look at the american anarchs, the soviet anarch council did have a lot of control over their lands and been top dogs in the soviet unicon for decades despite the area having a large number of verbana mages and being the homelands of the two high tribes of the garou... til baba yaga used plot magic to kill them all at once of course

the problem with these guys then is of course another writing problem with the anarchs and that is these guys have nothing to do with the anarchs in the free states because the anarchs, as much as v5 and to a lesser degree v20 wants us to believe otherwise, aren't their own sect, the books themselves admit that they do not share any unifying political ideology and the soviet council being called anarchs also disproves the claim that instead they share a "philosophy of egalitarianism" because supressing clans not named brujah and making life misserable for everyone else (regardless of if they are kine or kindred) while filling your belly with gulag blood is not what i would call egalitarianism. No like the other anon said membership is defined by opposition to the camarilla and to a lesser degree sabbat which i don't think is even a bad thing because the original anarchs in the setting had been rebels after all so can we please stop pretending they are a sect? they are rebels

>>92594880
>Though I'll defend the general disfunction of vampire societies.
Vampiric societies will be disfunctional because all societies are disfunctional on some level. But then anarchs don't even have a disfonctional society; they don't have one. They're just copy-pasting the Camarilla. As anon said, they all too often feel like the fantasy of establishment kids thinking "rebels are so cool!"
>You'd need to reinvent political theory from the ground up
Not really, I thnik there's only one major hurdle - granted it's not a small one - modern political theory posits that no one member of a political body can be stronger than the political body itself. The discrepency of power between Methuselah and young vampires is such that it *can* happen that no institutional check-and-balance can be found. But apart from that?
The issue is more that vampires work as excessive metaphors of human flaws, and that model mostly fails to bring up the stories people expect from the genre. It becomes byzantine politicking over nothing-burgers.

>>92594709
You're free from the burden of ever having to harm another living being to survive, you no longer have to drink blood, can indulge in mortal food, and no longer radiate the aura of the beast. You can even walk in the sunlight with some effort, and you no longer face the rotshreck. However, Golconda is a state of being, not an endgoal. One can fall from Golconda through breaking a tenet of whatever path they followed to reach it (usually humanity or the path of christ or something similar)

>>92594709
not quite the answer to your question, but i would like other roads to also have their Golconda like the Path of Metamorphosis and it's Azhi Dahaka after all it's not "path of humanity" only as the road of heaven is also related to Golconda and you still need to go down to humanity 1 to switch to that road, but Golconda in general has been such a non topic in our games so far that i never got around to writing down what i would like for it to do

>>92592821
What the fuck is a vers?

>>92594980
>can we please stop pretending they are a sect?
No, because having an unified rebel group sells and simplifies shit for new players. iirc ''anarch'' was just the vampire version of a barbarian but they decided they needed to make them a major faction.

>>92595163
>No, because having an unified rebel group sells and simplifies shit for new players

but that's the opposite of what they are saying they want to do remember the v5 is all against what they see as "monolithic factions" everything is meant to be smaller and local and misserable because when these guys see factions they don't see any opportunity to roleplay in them, no they just see them as roadblocks for some reason

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390 KB JPG

>>92594709
>What's your guy's personal idea of Golconda?
I am conflicted, a part of me just wants it to be a return to human form a la Promethean. another part wants it to be a vampiric ascension, properly integrating the beast into your self breaking most aspects of the curse becoming a blood fueled demigod growing in your own image.
The later just sounds like a wankfest waiting to happen while the first sounds so... empty.

>>92594709
Golconda is about redemption, so it should unironically make you human again. Nobody who isn't pure of heart and seeking redemption should be able to achieve it in the first place. Power comes to vampires naturally with Age, you don't need a mystical journey altered state for that.

>>92594595
>That's still not a very good talking point
Anon, it's a fantastic talking point when the people in charge of the Camarilla not only don't know how to use a computer, but in many cases don't even know what a computer *is*.

It's an even better talking point when you remember that you're all immortal vampires. In a normal gerentocracy, eventually the old geezers at the top die and eventually you get to be an old geezer at the top. That doesn't happen with vampires. The old geezer just gets older, more curmudgeonly, and more determined to pay back Varney the Ventrue for that shit he did back in 1641 and you will be carefully manipulated into pulling this off by the Prince to that effect even as Varney has decided that YOU need to die because the Prince kind of smiled at you once which must mean you're important to his plans.

>and then thinking that your gang of 13 people should go to war with the united nations
But it's not your gang of 13 people. It's your gang, and the neighboring gang, and the neighboring gang, and all of the other gangs. You don't necessarily get along with all these other gangs but you damn well are going to fight for your right to exist and their right to exist independent of Varney the Ventrue's plans to manipulate you into kamikaze attacks against a pizza shop because he's convinced it's a front for the prince's rum smuggling business that he founded back in 1641.

>>92595285
You forgot to reply to a post to correspond to that second quote.

Even if the Camarilla elders are a bunch of old insane retards like you think they are, the Anarchs have no solution to this problem. In the Camarilla, you (legally) can't be killed unless you violate the traditions. Can this be abused? Can you be manipulated and screwed? Of course. Welcome to the world of the Kindred. How exactly does being an Anarch save you from any of this? Being an Anarch offers you only the protection of a Baron, maybe, who's just a Prince with no officially defined limits to his power. If the Elder wants to screw you over, at least in the Camarilla you can hide behind your Primogen's skirt. The Anarch's only response to an Elder deciding "fuck you", is to try and destroy the Elder, which is going to require unity and zeal. Which causes us to arrive at the Sabbat's position. Every Sect tries to find a solution to the problem of an ornery elder. The Camarilla sets rules of engagement, the Sabbat wants to kill every elder but their ideologically aligned elders, and the Anarchs have no solution but saying "I don't recognize your authority."

>>92595356
>the Anarchs have no solution to this problem
Yes, but at least they have acknowledged that there IS a problem. The first step and all that.

>>92594709
All the best parts of being human with all the best parts of being vampire. You don't need to fear the sun, fire, & can eat human food. All the curses are lifted. You can have fangs & can still drink vitae. Your Beast is gone.

On the opposite Metamorphosis destroys your humanity & let's your beast reign

>>92595356
>Every Sect tries to find a solution to the problem of an ornery elder.
No, they don't. The Camarilla doesn't have a solution to the problem of an ornery elder; just the opposite, they have a support network specifically designed to give aid and succor to that elder. You can't hide behind your Primogen in the Camarilla unless it benefits the Primogen to protect you or would hurt them to not; if you're a Toreador who's pissed off a Nosferatu and then gone running to your Primogen for aid, the likelihood is that your Primogen will nod, smile, and then Dominate you over to the Nosferatu because she just does not give two shits about you and would rather keep things civil with them.

Anarchy work better as a catch all for just rebels of any stripe. Just a big open cause to be a magnet for those who resist the Camarilla but don't go Sabbat. Commies? Sure. IRA types? Sure. Hippie Christians? Sure. Usurpers trying to make their own system with them on top? Sure.

one thing i am wondering aren't cities in the dark ages really small when you look at it from a modern point of view? so are there just more kindred per human in those cities or do most cities have 3-4 kindred in total during that time?

>>92595462
That will happen if you haven't proved your usefulness to the Primogen and have still managed to piss off someone problematic to her: I doubt that most Kindred that have lived for a long time would be willing to just hand over an useful toy without a good reason.

>>92595585
>aren't cities in the dark ages really small when you look at it from a modern point of view?
Yeah.

>so are there just more kindred per human in those cities
Yes.

>>92595462
I think you have a very distorted view of how the Camarilla works. A Toreador handing her clanmate to the Nosferatu would be a disgrace, those two are ancient enemies. Primogen have their position to represent their clan's interests, so if they do not do so, they lose the respect required for their position. They don't have to solve your problems for you, but unless you broke the traditions. Hell, in the Camarilla you can only legally be put to death on the Prince's decree, so if those Nosferatu can't kill you lest they risk being caught and executed themselves for violating the traditions.

According to Guide to the Camarilla, Primogen sometimes even intercept tradition-breaking Kindred themselves, so as to deny the clan the shame of one of their own being publically punished. I have no idea where you have gotten this ludicrous exaggeration of the Camarilla from.

>>92595580
The Camarilla does have a solution. When an Eldar becomes to ornery they get Listed & killed, or kept in check by the other Elders. You guys act like the clans don't regularly clean house every couple of decades.

>>92595614
He's probably the same faggot who thinks the Tremere blood test everyone every sundown & track every fart

>>92595585
News didn't travel and people still commonly believed in vampires anyway, it's reasonable that more vampires would be in closer contact and more exposed within smaller populations.

>>92595399
In this case I don't think acknowledging the problem does anyone any good. It's a simple fact of vampirism that the older you get, the stronger you become. Generation and natural talent/potential/whatever you want to call it are also factors, but even the most talented neonate can't stand up to even a mediocre Elder. It's a problem you can't solve, not in full.

Plus, both the Sabbat and the Camarilla were formed due to the original Anarch Revolt (as little sense as that term makes, but hey, DA was written second), which was in response to unaccountable Elders abusing their Childer. Both Sects sought to address this problem with different solutions. The Camarilla's is to set rules of engagement, and channel vampire pettiness to less destructive ends like preening in Elysium. The Sabbat's was to create an all-encompassing cult that otherizes everyone else to ensure internal cooperation. Neither succeeds in removing the problem outright, as the problem is inherent to Kindred nature. But both are far better than the Dark Ages alternative.

Which, funnily enough, is what the Anarchs would practically bring about. With no structure, it'd just devolve entirely into the every vampire for themselves with some Clan cooperation depending on the Clan structure, that led to such horrible abuses of power in the first place.

>>92595614
>A Toreador handing her clanmate to the Nosferatu would be a disgrace, those two are ancient enemies
Except when they're not. You're falling into the mistake of stereotypes, but the books are VERY clear that at most half of the Toreador or Nosferatu or Malkavian or whatever fit what you think of as a Toreador or Nosferatu or Malkavian.

>Primogen have their position to represent their clan's interests
Describe to the Toreador Primogen how it's in the clan's best interests to have a neonate who can't even avoid getting into a tiffy with the Sewer Rats around.

>Hell, in the Camarilla you can only legally be put to death on the Prince's decree
And some Princes are more than happy to hand out that decree, or look the other way and pretend they didn't notice anything happening. And don't think you can go running to someone up the Ivory Tower to deal with a Prince who just doesn't care, because they themselves just don't care as long as the Prince isn't practicing infernalism or joining the Sabbat or doing anything to endanger their schemes in the Jyhad.

>I have no idea where you have gotten this ludicrous exaggeration of the Camarilla from.
The fact that Kindred are vampires first, Clan second, and Sect a distant third.

>>92595736
Do you have any books to cite or are you just going to keep repeating that mantra? Obviously not all members of the Clan are the same, but clan structure does matter heavily. Your example doesn't even make any sense, half the time Toreador and Nosferatu get into tiffies simply by existing next to each other. Your Primogen may well keep your ass alive if for no other reason that it pisses the Nosferatu off. Yes there are exceptions but at that point one can't make any argument because every city has a different political scene. You have to argue in broad strokes or else it's an endless cycle of "but this vampire might".

You can't list any books to support your image of the Camarilla, you cherrypick quotes to argue and ignore every other part of the argument and haven't explained why the Anarchs offer any solutions to these problems. I don't see any reason to keep engaging with your nonsense, and frankly nobody else in the thread should either.

>>92595607
>>92595661
Ah okay makes sense, you guys know any sources for city map during the time dav plays in? I found some but most of those are like 2 to 4 centuries later

>>92595781
>Do you have any books to cite or are you just going to keep repeating that mantra?
Yeah, Vampire: The Masquerade Revised, pg. 64, the sidebar "Clans and characters", which directly contradicts your statement "clan structure does matter heavily" with

>one does not experience the agony of the Embrace and the ravages of the Beast only to spend eternity as a faceless agent/bureaucrat for "the organization." For every "typical" clan member, there are many more who defy conventional wisdom about the clan. Most vampires follow their clan's teachings exactly as far as it suits them, and no farther.

The "vampire first" thing I keep saying is also a direct quote from one of the Revised era books, but I can't remember which one (it may seriously be have been twenty years since I read it) except that it went on to point out that the Camarilla and Sabbat are extremely new in vampire terms, barely more than five centuries old, and most of the elders in both sects aren't really committed to them in any meaningful way except as a means to an end in the Jyhad.

>You can't list any books to support your image of the Camarilla
Anon it's supported by a direct read of any of the Camarilla sect books that have been published. Seriously pick an edition, it's made very clear in all of them that the Camarilla is a support network that exists to entrench the power of elders. It doesn't protect the ancillae or neonates or fledgelings in any way. What protects them is having favors owed them by the elders or being useful to the elders, but that's got nothing to do with the Camarilla's structure.

>>92595807
No specific source, but the biggest cities can probably be found with some googling. Paris 1180:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Troisi%C3%A8me_plan_de_la_ville_de_Paris_-_Gallica_1.jpg

>>92595781
>and haven't explained why the Anarchs offer any solutions to these problems
I never claimed that they had, I just pointed out that the Anarch position is easy to understand: "just because you're older than me doesn't mean you should be in charge of me" should be intuitive to any person who's ever had to deal with being talked down to by someone who is objectively a moron and yet gets to be in charge because he was born a couple decades before you. And it really shouldn't be hard for you to imagine how much worse it would be if instead of a few decades, he's a few centuries older than you; and that instead of just talking down to you, he can kill you.

>>92595993
It's a bit of a different situation though when your average Elder is far from a moron, just out of touch. They're very intelligent and charismatic going by their stats, and it stands to reason that one needs a bit of cunning to survive to be an Elder in the first place.

If the Elder is being depicted as an objective moron, rather than someone smart struggling to adapt to a world that's changing quicker and quicker (and let's face it, it's becoming hard for even younger people to keep up with the rapidity of changes nowadays), then I think that's either a failing of the person writing the Elder as such. Or it's a failing of the game that it does not accurately depict Elders as the oafs it wants them to be mechanically.

>>92596148
>It's a bit of a different situation though when your average Elder is far from a moron, just out of touch.
They're not just out of touch. They're out of touch inhuman monsters who will ruin your life because their rival from 1641 once kind of smiled in your general direction, and the closest thing that elder has to a boss, the Prince, does not care if he gets you killed as long as he both does it in a deniable way and as long as it doesn't hurt his own power base. He may even sanction it if it advances his own power base.

That is exactly the Camarilla as it has always been depicted.

>>92595285
>>92596303
>1641
Busy year...

>>92596490
Varney the Venture has NEVER gotten over the execution of Thomas Wentworth and aims to ruin all the vampires involved in causing it.

>>92596590
>Varney
Oh, yeah, the first year would be hectic.

>>92595137
vers = versatile. sandwich filling

>>92595993
Fucking zoomies. The Elder isn't in charge because he's older. He's in charge because he is stronger, more skilled, more knowledgeable, & has a closer connection to Caine than you. He has been playing vampire politics longer than your lick can fathom & you think your moderninity makes you worthy to be even close to equal with him. Well guess what shovelhead? He's cultivated a plethora of delegated support & subordinates that DO know about modern stuff & they ultimately work for the Elder. Blood flows up.

>>92596490
Wait till you hear about 1530 and 1827.

>>92595258
This. I like to think that the suggested systems of allowing characters to buy traits up to 10 regardless of generational limits and similar are actually false promises designed to lure unworthy vampires (vampires seeking Golconda as a means of gaining power, rather than of personal redemption) to their dooms, and that any vampire seeking such benefits cannot attain Golconda at all.

I like the idea that vampires who actually attain Golconda cast off the curse of Caine (which, of course, is the ultimate spiritual reward for a vampire) and become human again. I also think they should die immediately, perhaps by rapidly aging to their true age, with their souls in a state of redemption in the eyes of God.

>>92596772
Based.
>>92595993
>someone who is objectively a moron
Would never have survived that long, unless maybe they're somebody's puppet.
We're talking about the politics of an organization of literal monsters, not your shitty retail manager who got promoted because of seniority.
IIRC WoD vampires don't get senile either.

What's the coolest koldunic powers for a tzimisce trying to set up their own hidden domain in a city without anyone finding out?

>>92596847
Give them a brief moment of pure, human joy before they enter the kingdom of heaven. Let them savor that which they have been denied for so long.

>>92594709
>What's your guy's personal idea of Golconda? You don't have to go into mechanical detail if you don't want to, but what effects do you imagine it has?
None. It's a scam. The Master of Ravens (no, the other one) was right. You wanna be agood guy, try and find the Children of Osiris.

>>92596772
This isn't an argument that the Camarilla is better than the Anarchs, just stronger. You are literally making an argument that Might makes Right. You might think that's true, and Hell it might actually be true, but by the Modern Nights there's centuries of philosophy in the mortal world arguing about things like the social construct, separation of powers, power to the people, etc.

>>92596851
>Would never have survived that long
Counterpoint: Tremere. Both the person, and the Clan as a whole. I'm nearly certain that every single thing Tremere himself and his clan asa whole have ever tried to do on any kind of scale has backfired in some way.

>>92597234
I'll start taking the Anarchs seriously when they ditch the retarded name and suggest an actual solution rather than just bitch about the other sects.

>>92597234
Unless the Anarchs want to become a bunch of diablerists it pretty much is objectively true on a vampiric level

>>92597234
Clan Tremere is arguably the single most powerful clan. Their sorceries & political power founded the Camarilla. You're retarded.

Might does make right. Sometimes weaker people can unify & overwhelm an individual, but that's just might too. All in all you are forgetting the single most important vampire power. The unification of Tremere and the most devastating power a vampire has & one that the Elders of any clan have cultivated over their centuries. The Blood Bond. An Eldar has multiple powerful vampires enslaved to his will. Those vampires have their own enslaved servants, so on & so forth. On top of this is mortal connections & slaves. This isn't something you can stop with some catchy slogans or some townhall speeches. The Blood Bond is what makes Tremere so scary, other Clans have sorceries or Disciplines that can rival Thaumaturgy, but the fact that the entire clan works as one cohesive unit against their foes is power not easily stopped.

>>92597262
>when they ditch the retarded name
They didn't even pick the name themselves, it was applied to them by the Camarilla. The Anarchs began as vampire Princes who agreed with the Traditions in principle but didn't want to subsume themselves to the Camarilla and instead continue as independent entities free to implement the the Traditions and make their own rules as they desired; if the Camarilla is the European Union than the original Anarchs were Switzerland and Norway and Iceland. The Camarilla called them anarchs for not being willing to submit to Camarilla authority. The original Anarchs aren't actually anarchic, they're very much pro-authority, just not pro-Camarilla-authority. They still exist in the modern day: Cairo, for example, is an Anarch principality under Mukhtar Bey, even if Bey himself would just call himself "independent" rather than an Anarch (because he doesn't care to support the independence of other fiefdoms, just his own).

The Anarchs you're bitching about are the vampires who've embraced the name the Camarilla gave them and made it their own, and imported the idea of independent freeholds who don't have to bow and scrape to the Camarilla or become religious fanatics like the Sabbat to America when they created the Anarch Free State. Their proposed solution to the elder problem is enforcement of the Status Perfectus (which basically calls for communal power: no Prince, no Primogen, every vampire having equal say in how a city is run; a given fiefdom usually has a small enough number of vampires that this is actually feasible)

>>92597450
The Little Orphan Anarchs didn't even name themselves. It's almost sad when you realize that they are puppets of the Elders, a slow burn to keep any real united resistance from challenging the Cam.

>>92597450
>the Status Perfectus (which basically calls for communal power: no Prince, no Primogen, every vampire having equal say in how a city is run; a given fiefdom usually has a small enough number of vampires that this is actually feasible)
>Actually feasible

Hahahaha. An Independant I can sorta respect, but this is just sad. Vampire direct democracy is the stupidest idea I've heard all night, thanks for the laugh.

>>92597368
>Their sorceries & political power founded the Camarilla.
No, desperation in the face of the Inquisition, the Assamites, and the Anarch Revolt. And the Tremere can try and play things up as much as they want, but they contributed no more to the Camarilla then any of the other founding clans, and in fact arguably made things harder than they needed to be given that bringing in the Tremere meant bringing in a clan that at least two others (Tzimisce and Assamites) wanted wiped out at any cost.

Also even setting that side, given how the Camarilla has become an entrenched power structure for its elders allowing them to continue the same abuses that they did prior to its founding while also denying the existence of, and doing nothing to fight, the objectively real, objectively existentially threatening Antediluvians, one can make a strong argument that if the Tremere were instrumental in the founding of the Camarilla, it's just further proof of the fact that everything the Tremere touch turning to shit.

>Clan Tremere is arguably the single most powerful clan
Pull the other one.

>but the fact that the entire clan works as one cohesive unit against their foes
Yeah the Toreador figured out this weakness ages ago. The Tremere have themselves organized in a swell pyramid hierarchy that looks great on paper but is so damn easy to fuck up. Kill one Tremere and the entire chantry starts tearing itself apart as every Tremere lower on the pyramid starts jockeying to ascend. The Tremere backstab and betray each other at least as often as any other Clan, if not more. And they're not nearly as unified as you're trying to gaslight me into believing: There are Anarch Tremere and have been ever since the first Revolt; and there were antitribu Tremere for hundreds of years, and even Tremere (the person's) efforts to eliminate them ended up blowing up in his face when he managed to get his soul stuck in Goratrix's body, giving his own body fully over to Saulot.

>>92597513
>Actually feasible
Direct democracy is usually considered to be impossible once you have over 1,000 people.

The vampire population in modern nights is considered to be unusually high because *some* places have 1 vampire per 10,000 mortals. A city would need to have over 10 million mortals in it before you'd have a population of 1,000 vampires; this would mean that in the whole United States, only the New York-Neward-Jersey City metro area and the Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim metro area would be too large for democracy to be feasible for its vampiric population. Every other metro area is less than 10 million people. Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue, for example, would have just 400 vampires in it. And that's assuming that that metro area even has a vampire:mortal population ratio that high; again, it's said that *some* places have huge Kindred populations, but that definitionally means not all or even most.

So in principle, no. There's no reason why vampires couldn't have a democratic institution if they so chose, and the Anarchs are expressly vampires who are willing to give it a go.

>>92597652
>Neward
*Newark
Also note that metro areas can be huge; the Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue one I mentioned covers like 15% of Washington state. Most likely each of Seattle, Tacoma, and Bellevue would be separate principalities, with smaller principalities scattered between them. Seattle proper's population is just under 750K, so there'd be just 75 vampires in the whole city even assuming the expressly absurdly high 1:10,000 vampire:human ratio; Tacoma just 22, and Bellevue just 15. More than small enough for direct democracy to be possible in principle. And again, Anarchs are expressly willing to try. The Revised Edition's Guide to the Anarchs states outright that many baronies are informal democracies, even if they more resemble the democracy of Edward Teach than the democracy of Thomas Jefferson. Hell, the entire reason why Anarchs have "barons" is because "baron" is the lowest title of nobility and a baron is *never* a ruler in his own right, he is *always* beholden to someone else.

>>92597652
>Lol, sure let's have a direct democracy. I'm gonna create a bus load of shovel heads & force a vote in my favor
>Or I'm gonna be sneaky & blood bond some weak ass neonates
>Or I'm gonna start killing neonates that don't vote for what I want in droves
>Dominate Dominate Dominate

>>92597569
Maybe address the Blood Bond problem faggot, that was far more important than me jerking off Goratrix's non existent dick

>>92597794
>Maybe address the Blood Bond problem
Hello, fellow Anarchs. The Blood Bond is sure a problem! Have you considered engaging in a sort of "Communal Blood Bond" with one another, that protects you from the depredations of the individual bond? You can read more about it in this ominous book.

>>92592821
Tremere are all switches. That's the whole point of the Pyramid. You top anyone in your chantry that is lower in rank, and bottom for anyone higher in rank.

>>92597794
An earnestly democratic gang or cult sounds horrifying enough. You'd settle at the lowest common denominator of monsters without anybody at all wanting it or taking ownership.

At least Carthians kinda realize they're going to eat themselves.

>>92597888
Honestly there's too much wrong with a democratic vampire society to list it all without wall of texting for half the thread. Any attempt at direct democracy requires everyone to be operating in good faith, which is an impossible ask for vampires, and that's where I'll leave it.

That and frankly, this topic of discussion is getting dry and repetitive.

>>92597828
This. The Sabbat is the logical conclusion of any Anarch philosophy, and that is horrifying.

>>92597927
Well, they either larp as the Camarilla, or they devolve into Sabbat.

>>92598070
An Anarch will inevitably either join the Camarilla or live long enough to embrace the Sabbat. Either way, the result will be an inhuman monster just wearing a different mask.

>>92597828
Maybe... What's your stance on killing the elders that try to control us?

All this talk of the Sabbat, Anarchs & Camarilla have me wondering if Tristan the deep cover Salubri (soon to be renamed) should maybe have a different "face" for each sect, & fuck around in each political sphere of the Jyhad.

He his given name would be Tertius,
His Camarilla name would be Saburo, a studious Japanese descended American quiet, reserved, & a good ritualist
His Anarch name would be Trillion, a new age cult leader who is involved a lot in community outreach
His Sabbat name would be Trey, a shovelhead that lived, & always willing to help his brothers

>>92594201
Mithras said: any neonate that isn't an anarch is a fool

Anyone got full version of Book of Hungry Names? I really would like to see al arts. Amy Wilkins has such a lovely character design.

>>92598252
Last thread that quote was attributed to Villon. I'm starting to think it's made up.

>>92592356
Any of you guys ever homebrew up a monster, completely divorced from any of the splats? Tell me about them. I love homebrewing up random oddities and one-off monsters, it's something I feel like oWoD was desperately lacking and that nWoD does well but doesn't do enough.

>>92598348
>it's something I feel like oWoD was desperately lacking and that nWoD does well but doesn't do enough.
I feel the same way. I felt like one of the things that could have been done to give Beast more of its own identity is make one of their things being nega-hunters by having them track down, learn about, and assist other monsters. The Beast gets unique Kinship Merits and Nightmares out of it after all, and the "like me" effect they have would be less bad to me if it emphasized the fact Beasts instinctively view other monsters as family, and what that does psychologically to them. Include a build a monster section like Hunter has and it makes them less reliant on crossover.

>>92598318
all the old and powerful think that way. You must be some retarded doormat in their eyes if you do not attempt to kill the elders and break your shackles atleast once

>>92598252
The real life original is Clemenceau.
The vampiric variation was attributed to Villon in the France book. Which fits the character at least. Both story and manerism of stealing things from better people and claiming merit.
Mithras being by definition an original Anarch* - told the Camarilla to fuck off - I don't think it fits him that well.

*: though I don't know who'd dare to call him that way.

>>92598348
currently about to because i want to run a division E game so any suggestions are welcome

>>92598318
>>92598544
Hard to keep track of who said what.

>>92592643

WW may even publish other more troublesome races if it was older. We can even play a RaHoWa-style game under ST system

>>92598348
>>92598582
Not really, but the closest thing you really get to the build-a-bear monsters of CofD are the Fomori in Book of the Wyrm, and Pentex works reasonably well enough for antags for just about anyone, plus the tendency for Fomori to spontaneously manifest in other places means you can do a whole lot with them.

The thing I both love and hate about oWoD is how wiki-fied it is, CofD has build-a-bear monsters because it's a world where weird fucked up guys nobody knows about can exist. oWoD kinda has a design ethos of "Everything must be codified," which has a certain irony when Mage presents the Technocracy as so villainous.

>>92597794
>Maybe address the Blood Bond problem
Again, Anarchs do address it by at least acknowledging it as a problem, and the Free State specifically basically calls it anathema to their very existence by stressing freedom and individuality so much in the Status Perfectus. A vampire who goes around attempting to blood bond his fellow Anarchs stands a good chance of running afoul of every Anarch in the area and basically putting a target on their heads.

The Camarilla's solution? They don't have one. They love blood bonds. The encourage blood bonds. They practically gush blood at the thought of binding everyone underneath them and everyone over them. You do not have a strong talking point yourself on that front: you say "well Anarchs can't figure out how to prevent blood bonds in the first place" while handily ignoring that the Camarilla encourages their implementation. The Anarchs might not have a solution but at least they don't have "make the problem worse" a central tenet of their philosophy.

>>92597888
>An earnestly democratic gang or cult sounds horrifying enough
It's literally just what happened on pirate ships in the Caribbean during the Golden Age of Piracy, like I alluded to when I said that their democracy was the democracy of Edward Teach rather than Thomas Jefferson.

>>92599599
Why did you rant so much about Cam blood bonds? You realize I don't have a problem with blood bonds, I was just pointing out that
blood bonds make democracy pointless. The Cam doesn't care about democracy, so whining about how the Cam "doesn't have an answer either" shows me that you don't actually understand what I was talking about & that you are far too focused on some imaginary dick measuring contest.

You're being juvenile

>>92599599
>what happened on pirate ships in the Caribbean during the Golden Age of Piracy, like I alluded to when I said that their democracy was the democracy of Edward Teach rather than Thomas Jefferson.
Yeah, it's just that vampire powers make those a lot more corrupt and easier to usurp.
Blackbeard was intimidating enough to be the captain for most of his career, now imagine what someone like him would do with presence.

>>92599706
>Why did you rant so much about Cam blood bonds?
Because you do. You brought them up in the first place. You've brought up practically every single point in this entire conversation. Literally all I started with was the central throughline of Anarch philosophy, that elders shouldn't get to be in charge just because they're older being something that every human being - and thus every vampire - should intuitively understand.

That's the Anarch's talking point. That's the thing they bring to the table, that's how they entice neonates and ancillae in the Camarilla to join up. "Your master is old, and he's only getting older. He's strong and he's only getting stronger. He has power and you will NEVER, EVER be able to have any of your own in the Camarilla because the entire organization exists to entrench his power and keep you in your place firmly beneath him. You are stuck in a job where upward mobility is flat impossible unless you become very good at killing people more powerful than you and not getting caught doing it. You will always be beholden to your master, you are his slave, unless you become just like him.

"But over here in the Free State we're trying something different. We're young and hip and we're giving power to each vampire as individuals. We are trying to give you an actual say in how you get to spend the rest of eternity."

That's the appeal, that's the message, that's what they offer. And you can pooh-pooh it all you like, but you're being deliberately obtuse if you don't understand why it would appeal to young vampires who grew up in the Americas where virtually every single nation has a history of revolution in the name of liberty, as well as, due to being younger and thus not having the toll of centuries on them, having higher Humanities and thus being far less amenable to the idea of killing people just to gain power.

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>>92599725
Join the Anarchs?

werewolves bottom for mages

could a vampire survive being split in half vertically.

>>92600060
Hmm, actually an interesting question there. They haven't been decapitated, after all, either side of the head is still attached to its respective side of the neck...

>>92600060
That would be an insta kill for pretty much everyone and their mother given that the most generous way to stay that would be 22 lethal damage.

>>92600060
>>92600094
Heart would also still be fine so could be, there is one tzimisce who is sure he could survive losing 80% of his biomass in case he has to make a emergency escapes through a tube after all

Either vamp would certainly in topor though

>>92600151
*there is one tzimisce in haven of the dammed

>>92599781
You really need to focus on addressing the person you are quoting & stop soapboxing so much my guy

>>92600224
And *you* need to stop pretending that the Anarch's position of "just 'cause someone's older than you doesn't mean he should be in charge of you" is some kind of twisted, incomprehensible nonsense instead of the most obviously appealing statement a young vampire could hear.

>>92599781
Anarch free states were proven not to work after the death of Don Sebastian in 1944 and the anarchs couldn’t come together after and instead devolved into packs of gangs and territories. By their nature they require an adversary to unite against otherwise they’re no better. The rant of equality is great and all but elders inherently have more power. And just because they decry the blood bond doesn’t mean the blood bond can’t be used. There are subtle ways to bind other vampires. Or just use dominate/presence. They don’t even have proper Elysiums, it’s just bad manners.

>>92600302
>They don’t even have proper Elysiums
Oh no, you mean they don't have places where Toreador and Brujah dress like peacocks and snipe at each other all day long while deciding who's unlife to ruin next because they're just so gauche? C'est terrible.

>By their nature they require an adversary to unite against
By their nature ALL vampires require this. The only reason why the Camarilla lasted as long as it did was because it had to constantly deal with the Anarchs, the Sabbat, and the Assamites, and the last was literally by choice since they could have just, y'know, not let in the jumped-up Caitiff D&D LARPers who ruin everything they touch.

>>92600151
Yeah the side with the heart would be the "real vampire" and the side without would just turn to dust. Of course this would imply a vampire could survive a decapitation even though all the rules imply final death in that case.

>>92600302
>Anarch free states were proven not to work after the death of Don Sebastian in 1944
Excepting of course that they successfully united and repelled a Sabbat crusade in 1965 and managed to hold their territory against both Camarilla and Sabbat incursions for decades afterwards until a completely unexpected third party (the Kuei-jin) showed up in force in 1998.

Also the Status Perfectus was penned in 1948, four years *after* Don Sebastian died.

The Free State was messy, sure, but it's not like the founding of the Camarilla was nice and tidy and with instant cohesion, and the Sabbat have had three civil wars, two of them lasting decades. The objection to internecine Anarch gang warfare as somehow being uncouth kind of falls apart when you remember that the clans of the Camarilla will quite happily strike at each other as well; the Camarilla is not some kind of big happy family where all vampires get along and never try to kill one another.

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And now for something completely different...the final four Caitiff pregens.

I think I had more fun writing this one than I did even the Graduated Shovelhead and True Believer.

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>>92600437

>>92600060
Do the sides have to separate? I think there was a rule that if you heal in the same turn as a dismemberment, your blood sticks you in place and glues back together like Deacon Frost or Dio.

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>>92600446
This is the one that held things up most of all. Literally spent more time trying to figure out the backstory for the professional toady than I did for any three others combined, and the character sheet went through about five or six major revisions.

The nature and demeanor being identical is not a typo.

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>>92600461
Crimson Bat was also slow but mostly because I wafted between how silly I wanted to be. I ended up splitting the difference by making it clear that the Crimson Bat's "Justice is served!" persona is a deliberate affectation.

Oh and hey, on a related note, should I keep the original image for the Vengeful Diablerist (left) or replace it with one where you actually get to see his face (right)?

>>92470537
This was his write-up.

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>>92600544
Dammit forgot pic.

How do you stop a life mage who turned herself into a tapeworm and slithered up a werewolf’s ass as they slept?

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>>92600557
>>92600544
Left, right looks like an edgy twink mad that you wore his favorite MCR shirt without permission

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>>92600604
>right looks like an edgy twink
Given that the character concept is literally MAXIMUM EDGE, this isn't exactly an indictment.

Got yelled at by a player complaining I like to add other supernaturals to Vampire games
'It ungrounds the dark and gritty realism"
At most, I add Promethians

>>92600726
"I need some variety but I definitely don't need you." Hope you showed that guy the door.

Can my snowflake Deviant Awaken?

>>92600446
There's a merit ypu night want to use for this guy in Beckett's Jyhad Diary, next to the 16th generation flaw I believe

>>92600428
Except that as I stated they require an adversary to be united. That’s not a sustainable model of governance.

>>92600945
SIXTEENTH generation? I thought that was literally impossible, that the next step down from 15th generation vampires was dhampirs.

Also the Jyhad diary is 651 pages long, so I could use some help finding...well, anything in it, especially since it's organized by stories and a quick browsing of it hasn't allowed me to spot ANY rules-stuff in it. I genuinely thought it was all just fluff.

>>92600947
>Except that as I stated they require an adversary to be united
So do the Camarilla and the Sabbat. You can't indict the Anarchs for a flaw that both of the other major Sects possess. The only large Cainite faction I know of that didn't need an outside force to remain united is the Ashirra, and there's so little information on them that we can't even say that for certain.

>Spell calculator gives +10 dice from yantra rather than the +5
I wish I knew that sooner.

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Camarilla
>Old cranky guy with a stick up his arse rules and kills anyone who threatens his regime
Sabbat
>Old cranky guy with a stick up his arse rules and kills anyone who threatens his regime
Anarchs
>YOUNG cranky guy with a stick up his arse rules and kills anyone who threatens his regime

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>>92601284
Young good, old bad.
I'm joining the anarchs today.

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What clan/bloodline and generation would they be?

>>92600726
That guy is dumb. If one accepts the existence of vampires, there being nothing else supernatural out there is far less realistic than the alternative.

>>92601427
I can believe in adrenochrome without ghosts.

>>92600224
This dude is either arguing in character as an Anarch debatebro, or it's one of those Revised era goobers Paradox put in charge of WoD5 after the Chechnya incident.

>>92601454
WoD vampires aren't weird rich people injecting adrenochrome, they're a physics defying lineage of cursed beings that drink the life force from their victims.

>>92600270
The Cam isn't a gerontocracy no matter how many times you say it. It's a Caineocracy. Every vampire is subservient to the one who sired them. Thin bloods are ostracized for a reason

>>92600726
Tell him to list how many big bads Buffy fought that were vampires compared to how many were not.

>>92600936
You can't hold two major templates at the same time

>>92601466
yeah right and next your going to tell me Jews can't cast fireball and read minds baka wake up sheeple

Who are the good guys of vtm and why is it the sabbat?

>>92601467
Honestly, I'd take that further. The Fourth Tradition only applies until such a time as the Childe is released from your care. While the Fourth Tradition grants you authority over them for this time, it also means you're responsible for their fuck-ups, and get punished for it too.

The only Kindred you have to obey are the Prince, members of their court acting on the Prince's orders to their official capacity, and your sire until you are released from their custody. Hell, Chicago, the archetypal city of vampire has a Prince who is younger than all of his Primogen, and who's blood is less potent than many of them, if I recall correctly. He keeps his position through cunning and sheer control over mortal institutions. This guy cherrypicks all the worst parts of the Camarilla and states them as universal fact.

>>92601531
>Who are the good guys of vtm
The Tremere, obviously.

>>92601383
Depends on the game but going base arcade, it would be Baali. Fireballs & Sin

>>92601456
That's funny, I was thinking to myself that the only person who would try to argue this hard but in in his particular style of doing it is a V5 writer

>>92601531
the Inquistion are unironically the good guys. any vampire with a soul knows this is true, sure you might kill them and continue living but in the end you must accept that you are the monster in the story no matter how you look at it.

>>92601531
There are no good guys in VtM. You have Bad Guys that keep things civil and peaceful, aka the Camarilla. Worse Guys that want to save the world so they can rule it as mad blood tyrants aka the Sabbat, and Bad Guys who are deluded into thinking they're good guys because they overdosed on the mind-poison that is political theory, aka the Anarchs.

An individual vampire might be good, but none of their factions are, not by our definition of the word.

>>92601531
There are no good guys. Not at a sect level, anyway.

The Sabbat are religious nutjobs who decided to embrace the fact that they’re monsters and lord over humans as sheep. They’re hypocrites since elders still hold all the power i their organization and are perfectly happy to send fledglings and shovel heads to die in droves. They’ve fought three civil wars, two of them lasting for decades. They’re also objectively useless at their stated goal (“kill the Antediluvians”) since the two Ante kills they *claim* have have achieved actually just furthered the Ante’s plans.

The Camarilla are a might-makes-right gerontocracy that entrenches the power of the elders and ensures that every vampire down its ladder is a slave to the one above them; it literally is just a continuation of the abuses that caused the Anarch Revolt in the first place, just formalized. It also denies the existence of the objectively real, objectively existentially threatening Antediluvians while in reality actually being the Ante’s greatest catspaw (containing the Tremere clan, for example, which is a major tool for two very powerful Antediluvians who are playi by the Jyhad for keeps, neither of whom are named Tremere).

The Anarchs are a disorganized, disunited mess 90% of the time who, whatever their feelings towards other vampires, still have no real issues being absolute bastards towards humans when it suits their purposes. They’re too weak to be major players outside the United States and parts of Mexico and Canada, and ultimately whatever their stated goals, they’ll probably end up just being either the Camarilla with another name or the Sabbat with another name.

>>92601531
No one. Caine should have never sired childe & ever since, his childe have always fought one another & made kine suffer too. Saulot is kinda presented as a vampire Jesus or at least someone far more insightful & philosophical than the other warring & feuding ones. Some of the books present him as having the keys to perhaps fix some things, but then he also made the Baali, & is influencing the Tremere which are both pretty power hungry & evil. Unironically the only good vampire is a dead vampire, may Caine drink the world

>>92600726
Lolwut. I appreciate stand-alone narratives that are grounded and gritty and not overwhelming, but even within a lone splat there are a lot of overwhelming features.

I mean, damn, vampires are closer to superheroes than vampires in these games. You should realistically only need like one or two vampyric powers in a game of vampires.

WoD is also robotic and machine like just like D&D. Anyone with a more aware mind will immediately recognize they’re inside a video game.

>>92601631
cont’d…

The Assamites are built out the same blunt, efficient stupidity that built the Third Reich, and have a main goal of killing all other vampires who don’t meet their stringent standards - which is to say, all other vampires. They’re fine with using and abusing humans too.

Your typical Giovanni likes fucking his sister so much that he doesn’t stop even after she’s dead, and they have a plan for the world that makes the Rwandan genocide look like a Sunday social.

The Setites basically are the *real* anarchs of the setting and want to create a world of sinful debauchery where anyone can do anything they want to anyone else. So in other words a world that kills itself inside of about a week.

And the Ravnos…huh. Actually, you know, I don’t really know much about what their end-goal as a clan is, or if they even have an end-goal other than to just have a good time.

Guys the Ravnos might be the good guys.

>>92601543
They're not that sinful honestly

>>92601675
The Ravnos are gypsies. Gypsies are incapable of being the good guys

>>92601690
Baali or Drac?

>>92601675
Western Ravnos are bums. Eastern Ravnos want to filter vampires just like Assamites and command the cycle of reincarnation.

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So I wanted to make a serial killer and since the ventrue were one of the few clans I hadn't touched yet - How's this concept? A finder, controls a logistics corporation specialized in discreetly acquiring and shipping whatever your feeding restrictions/the clan might need. More Hitman/G-man than Michael Meyers. Pay off/trick law enforcement and customs to look the other way, Dominate mind wipe or arrange "accidents" for witnesses, get around legal loopholes, conceal living/biological cargo through mountains of paperwork before anyone actually takes a look at it. Feeding restriction: Afraid people.

Am I being too uncomfortably realistic/edgy/magical realmy? Is the restriction too loose?

I wanted to go more slasher but can't come up with a reason why the suits would embrace or keep a Leatherface knockoff with zero dignitas.

>>92601675
>And the Ravnos…huh. Actually, you know, I don’t really know much about what their end-goal as a clan is, or if they even have an end-goal other than to just have a good time.

the main goal the clan was created for was total kuei-jin death, but the united front fell apart after their ante gone to sleep and their allies the gangrel fucked off supposedly because they got backstabbed by the lhiannans

the western romani ravnos also have corruption and debasement of all other ravnos and the diablery of all non ravnos elders as goals they just have no real way of archiving it

>>92601729
>I wanted to go more slasher but can't come up with a reason why the suits would embrace or keep a Leatherface knockoff with zero dignitas.
American Psycho very much covered that option

Nah I’m pretty sure the sabbat are the good guys :^)

>>92601729
I'd make him a high society type, friends with all the Elders and Primogens. Have him own his own island where he runs his operation. I'd call it Esteem Island. Any type of kine you need he can get it. Keeps a little black book of everyone who's even been to his island. Gets blackmail on them so they can't kill him or oppose him meaningfully.

>>92601711
Dracula, and his son
The scene was rocking, all were digging the sounds-

>>92601755
It's called the Book of Nod, not the Book of Shake Your Head in Disagreement, so it must be true

>>92601772
Basic Castlevania Drac is all about Sin & Chaos & he throws fireballs & summons demons.

>>92601793
I say he's more blasphemous than sinful. Sure blasphemy is a sin but with all other kinds he's not worse than any other vampire, but the hellfire and demon summoning is a good point

>>92601729
Make him a legitimately talented businessman or socialite, that's why he was embraced. Ventrue don't pry into each other's social life, so as long as he doesn't get caught or openly advertise his private life, it shouldn't impugn his dignitas.

That could be far more terrifying, that he is in good standing with his peers who are blissfully unaware of his predilictions. Like a modern Gilles de Rais.

>>92601556
Can't be Achili, this dude seethes at the very mention of the Tremere. Do any of them have a weird fixation on the Assamites to the point of treating them like a worthy consideration when compared to the Sects?

>>92601910
which is funny because he used to be the number 1 tremere fanboy in the world, wonder what happened

>>92598348
Go for Bygone Bestiary book. There they have a lot of creatures for you to use and a whole section on how to create your own monster.
People really tend to forget this book.

I also recommend Storytellers Book from Dark Ages setting. They have a couple of creatures there as well.

>>92601854
Nothings a perfect fit. Like with most powerful vampires in media, they'd have to have a variety of Disciplines from a few clans, but most things can be covered easily enough. That's why I focused on the bare bones. Fireballs, demons, "What is a man?", that sort of shit. So he's a Baali

>>92601910
Who was responsible for destroying the Pyramid & writing Thinnlood Alchemy? It's probably them

>>92602030
Yeah sure, baali is probably the best fit

Is there any discipline or blood magic that let's you turn into blood and possess people? I think it would be cool to "leave your body behind" on a fairly permanent basis.

>>92601949
He didn't get Tremere gf.

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>>92601747
Hory shed you're right anon. I can also use that as an excuse to dump mental stats since Bateman himself barely does any actual work at his own job, and it gives potential victims a chance to outsmart him. Physical stats first, maximize appearance and manipulation but 1 charisma, but not very bright, just has enough education to get by and pretend he's doing it right. Total airhead, and it gives me a reason to quote Bateman the whole chronicle.
>>92601763
While the island I can see as something the ST could easily dismiss, the little black book of customers with a dead man's switch - both a MAD option and a potential ST plot hook if it gets stolen/tampered with. Maybe as blackmail.
>>92601885
I like the idea. You know how packages sometimes get damaged, right? A bruise here, a couple blood points missing there. And adds the hook of keeping them hidden from clan as well as polite society.

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>>92602123
not blood magic, turning to blood is vicissitude and possessing people using it is a combo discipline

don't try it on vampires though it's the diablerie version of suicide,.. once had a player try it as part of his childe's embrace...

>>92602129
>implying he wants a tremere gf after he spend half a page describing how brooding and dark lord tremere looks like

he lust after the Tremere D and only the original will satisfy hench why in his books he just wasn't in a body struggle with saulot for some reason

>>92602275
Maybe Achili is Goratrix?

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>>92600726
"dark and gritty realism"
Tell him to show up his ass. He doesn't know shit and doesn't know how to have fun.

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The more I read about them, the more the Fianna feel like they're really supposed to be a really successful camp of a much broader, disparate ur-Celtic tribe. The books make it clear that the camps not from Gaelic stock stop having a history with the Irish and Scottish Fianna very early on. The Brotherhood of Herne and the Dryn a drowd yn flaidd are often flat out antagonistic to the Gaels, I really doubt they'd accept the Ard Righ as being their king and they align themselves more closely with the Silver Fangs anyway (again, against the Irish). It wouldn't be until the 1800s that you would be likely to meet a Fianna that talks about Fionn MacCumhail or the Dagda or the Morrigan outside of Ireland. They just got a lucky break by being the group of Fianna that pushed out into the Americas, gobbling up land and caerns.

>>92602275
small correction he also wrote Transylvania Chronicles which featured the body smurf, but then ignored the entire body smurf subplot in blood treachery to have tremere show up in his original form

>>92602328
he tried to kill goratrix and killed his entire house for not being tremere enough when i say he is the number 1 tremere fanboy i mean it

the whole "goratrix is stuck in a mirror thing" was retconned in later. Transylvania Chronicles just had goratrix be dead or a ghost that would never be able to get his body back because he would have to overpower tremere's 10th level body stealing ritual

yes achili somehow had Tremere stay a 3rd gen who can cast 10th level rituals without Saulot's soul or his own body (meaning none of Saulot's blood)

>>92602400
there is a thing with the dustin familly where in some books they are fianna kinfolk and in some they are black spiral dancer kinfolk

so perhaps the fianna started as white howlers who got in with the fae which changed them like it did with that one bastet tribe who's name i can't be bothered to look up

>>92602404
Personally I'm a huge fan of Clan Tremere. I think they are probably the strongest clan, but I also love them for their faults & problems. The idea that Tremere got possessed by Saulot is cool as fuck. Them being weak to the blood bond & chained to the Pyramid is cool as fuck. Why anyone would go out of their way to not play uo their faults is not a fan boy, but dickriding for their own stupid projection

>>92600999
In case you didn't find them yet, 142-144 has the rules for 16th and Seers.

>>92601910
> this dude seethes at the very mention of the Tremere
I didn’t “seethe”. I brought up the Tremere originally because I thought that they were a self-evident example of elders who’ve pretty much done nothing but fail upwards. Instead I get someone who’s been guzzling the Kool-aid telling me that the clan is wholly unified and moves in perfect lockstep and is totes the most powerful in the world. Nevermind that they backstab and betray with the rest of them, that there’s been Anarch Tremere since the first revolt and were antitribu Tremere since the 18th century, that simply being Tremere or being friends with them puts you on the shit list of two major clans, and that when it comes to Tremere the individual, he has one major achievement to his name (laying the Assamite blood curse), and everything else has basically been him being manipulated by or playing into the hands of Saulot, [Tzimisce], or both. He isn’t even the one who figured out how to turn House Tremere into vampires in the first place, that was Goratrix.

I don’t hate the Tremere. But they’re not exactly what I’d cal a go-to example of success. Their reach has constantly exceeded their grasp and their power, while real, is also far smaller than they make it out to be. That’s basically the entire theme of the clan.

>>92602330
>initial post about cofd
>answer with unrelated owod screenshot
Huh...?

>>92602516
yeah the flaws and the organisation of clans are the fun part in general for me too

but a lot of people seem to dislike that i recently got a reminder of that because some new guys joined my workplace and the vtm game we have running there and one of them said he played vtm as a ventrue for years and he never heard about the ventrue gerousia till then and there

>>92602426
Fianna lore asserts that White Howlers already inhabited Pict lands by the time they got there, however I'd imagine that's something they'd readily lie about if it were the truth. The only problem being that it wouldn't explain the continental Whispering Rovers, who were the Fianna that didn't cross the English channel.

>>92600926
>>92602330
>>92601427
As much as I'd like to scream and swear that's not what a good ST should do
>Look at that asshole who fights with his players
>He can't handle one disagreement
I'm letting him play with the group because it's better to try and make peace than burn a bridge
If he still wants to argue I'll give the excuse all game masters give in this situation
>This isn't a session you'd enjoy
Btw my Promethean defense was Gargoyles and Wraiths
We're playing Vamp 20th with there being Fae Lasombra vampires for God's sake

>>92602619
>Played a Ventrue for years
>Had never heard of the Gerousia

Please tell me his game just used the new form "The Board" rather than the old form Gerousia.

>>92602607
>Maxes out 2000 letter limit explaining how he's not mad...

>>92602882
no he didn't knew about monthly meetings or ranks inside of the clan "i thought only tremere had that"
his other st also told him dignitas is just another word for boons and his character in the other game never had a agoge

>>92602885
Mucho texto is always a sign of the big mad, or autism. Sometimes I max out the text when talking about shit that happened in my games or lore, that's the tism speaking.

Honestly it's not worth engaging with this guy. He moves the goalposts every post, and very much cherrypicks the worst aspects of whatever it is he's criticizing and treats that as the absolute case everywhere.

>>92602922
As a Ventrue enthusiast... that hurt to read. Especially since in my humble opinion the Ventrue Clan Structure is the most effective and functional of the properly structured clans, so it's not like engaging with it is a burden to the player.

Bros, I keep making NPCs I'll never need, and it boils down to I want to lard my chronicle with hot Toreador girls (and some other clans too) but I don't want them to get mauled by player autism. Is this a Catch-22?

>>92602619
>played vtm as a ventrue for years and he never heard about the ventrue gerousia till then and there
>>92602922
"i thought only tremere had that"
Ventrue players, ladies and gentlemen.

>>92601508
STPC it is.

>>92602885
>>92602927
That’s not even close to the 2k limit. Also, mad =/= wrong. Autistic =\= wrong. The Tremere are overhyped by their fanboys.

>>92602975
If they kill too many hot toreador girls, send hit squads of hot toreador guys to kill them.

>>92602927
> He moves the goalposts every post,
My goalpost is where it always was. “Just because you’re older than me doesn’t mean you should be in charge of me” is an intuitively comprehensible argument in favor of the Anarchs, and anyone with a working brain should be able to grasp how they’ve used that to pull in as many neonates and ancillae in the Americas as they have.

Please note that I also posted >>92601631 where I excoriate the Anarchs just as hard as the Camarilla and almost as hard as the Sabbat.

>>92602975
While I know Toreador has a stable of beauties, I find Malks so much hotter

>>92603009
Why use a forward slash & a backslash? You look retarded. Also big word mean big mad

>>92603059
How many times do people need to point this out? It's not about age

>>92602948
to go back a bit in the conversation i could see a scenario where the board can be a obstacle for a player especially when they can't invest or interfere with a company owned by another venture or something and thus a plan of the coterie can't advance, but again for me the skull digging and scheming that can come from that is the fun part for me which is why i also like tremere apprentices screwing each other over for good guy/girl points and the classic amici noctis court case where a lasombra wants to eat their sire

not saying either of them are the same (as in as functional) as the ventrue i am just saying i feel the game becomes more hollow when you play clan as character classes and stereotypes only

>>92602977
happens more often than you'd think personally i blame the fact that there is no v20 camarilla book, no real good city book in v20 for people who can't or won't get the older books (no idea why you wouldn't but i heard of several people like that) to base their city on and that lore of clans has a anarch explain the structure so this might turn off some people

and of course some people just don't want clan structure to be a thing

>>92603052
Actually, that's a pretty cool idea. "That gallery owner wasn't just arrogant for no reason. She was one of the most popular Kindred in the city and the apple of her sire's eye. What'd you think would happen?"
>>92603089
It's not for nothing there's an old tale that says the Toreador and Malkavian antediluvians were siblings in life and in undeath.

>>92603118
>it’s not about age
No, it’s about power, but as was pointed out upthread, she brings power to vampires if for no other reason than they have the ability to entrench themselves in mortal politics or have time to develop their Disciplines or whatever. Age isn’t exactly synonymous with power but it’s not far off, either, and it’s definitely how vampires themselves consider things in-universe - otherwise why would the Sabbat rant about elders, why would the Anarch Revolt have been said to be about elders, why would the positions of status in the Camarilla correspond roughly to the age (fledgeling, neonate, ancilla, elder, Methuselah), why would nine times in ten Princes be among the oldest vampires in the city? You name Lodin, I’ll name Mukhtar Bey. You want to keep playing the name game and I promise that you’ll run out of vampire princes under 300 years old before I run out of vampire princes over 300 years old. Age might not beget power directly but it’s a useful shorthand for it, and you know it, otherwise you wouldn’t be so determined to split hairs and go “hashtag not all elders”.

>>92602975
>Bros, I keep making NPCs I'll never need
oh i know that feeling i keep telling myself that my current city of recidence could support 180 vampires and stay in the one vampire for each 10k people range, but my players have meet like 30 npcs in total and i made like more than twice that

>I want to lard my chronicle with hot Toreador girls (and some other clans too) but I don't want them to get mauled by player autism. Is this a Catch-22?

i "fixed" that once by having the players be played and betrayed by a hot setite chick, but now they won't trust anyone with appearance over 3

>>92598348
>>92598582
the old hombrew side in the op has two pages for mage and wta based fanmade monsters

>>92603231
Don't you know by now Malkavian twin siblings are always imaginary? They're the same person.

>>92603119
I think the rule of "you can't fuck with another Ventrue's affairs" is much more helpful than it is harmful. Especially since it can protect a young Ventrue's business from older Ventrue, who would have more ability to subvert your enterprise.

Clanbook Ventrue puts forward a pretty good solution to the problem of "everything is already run by existing Ventrue", build yourself a new power base. Get into an emerging, new industry that your elders don't have an existing stake in, or a physically new domain. Use your real estate connections to physically expand the Clan into suburbs or satellite towns it has no presence in. In doing so you not only stake for yourself an inviolable domain enshrined by your status as Ventrue, but further extend the Clan's influence as a whole. It's a very effective structure that feels very plausible, since it accounts for the sheer amount of egos that a self-proclaimed "Clan of Kings" would produce. It's not perfect, obviously. Nothing is, but it works and I love the weird nepotistic meritocracy it creates.

Hell, one of the things I like about the Ventrue is they have a clear and defined theme without relying on a stereotype. Ventrue don't embrace from one field, or even one social class. They embrace "winners", so to speak. People with the natural potential to or proven history of winning. Your "default" Ventrue is in business, because that's where a lot of the power is these nights. But you can also easily find
>Mob Bosses
>Socialites who know and control all the movers and shakers of the city
>Machiavellian Politicians
>Espionage Agents
>Military Officer
>Old Money/Nobles whose very name carries respect

Or any combination of the above. They appeal to a very clearly defined "vampire as the elite" concept, without pigeon-holing you into something.

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What are your favorite hunter groups? any version, if that matters.

>>92603378
oh i don't disagree with you, i am only saying that there can be situtations where you will have to act against the clan for your interest it's vampire first clan second after all and what i think i am trying to say (sorry it's late here) is that a good clan structure gives you a possible reason to engage with members of your clan and gives you a allowed terms of engagements both when it comes to getting help and or trying to mess with another member and of course the extra fun that comes with either trying to follow these or trying to break those terms without being caught

add to that the other players who unless you play a single clan game will be outside of this structure (and possibly in their own) and thus can and can't do things you can.
and the fact that if you have friends on the otherside other people will too and you get a web of intrigue that i really like to play out when i am running vtm

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>>92603391
Oh boy, a Hunter question. I love these. In no particular order
>Task Force: Valkyrie.
I find them a much more plausible and fun take on the concept of the Glowie Hunter than the V5 stuff.

>The Society of Leopold.
Church secret societies are great conspiracy fodder, which is one of my favorite parts of the setting. Plus, they can be psychopathic monsters or actually heroic individuals depending on what you want to do with them, no lore-bending required.

>The Ashwood Abbey.
Probably my favorite "bad guy" Hunter group to use. They're easy to hate so when I want Hunter antagonists without any moral stipulations, I often default to these degenerates.

>Network 0
I haven't actually run these guys yet, but I think they're actually more interesting to use now than when they were originally written, what with all the concerns about internet and other media censorship and obfuscating the truth. I'd like to use them to explore just how ironclad the digital masquerade can be.

>The Arcanum
While technically not Hunters at all, I just want to mention that I love these guys as a mundane "nerd" organization that has some real legit information on the supernatural buried under phrenology textbooks and a 30 letter correspondence on the existence of the Nandi Bear.

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>>92603378
>Or any combination of the above. They appeal to a very clearly defined "vampire as the elite" concept, without pigeon-holing you into something.
Maybe its just the Requiem version bleeding back into Masquerade but I would expect more animal related business.
Maybe some asshole trying to repopulate the buffalo so he can relieve his mortal dies massacring them by the hundreds.

>>92603465
I get you, not trying to start an argument or anything. Intrigue is fun. Conspiracies are also very fun and I love secret societies within secret societies.

One thing I've been working on in the recesses of my mind are some additional secret societies or "cults" that exist within the Sects, and possibly across Sect lines. More than just Infernalists or Lilith worshippers.

>>92603468
>I'd like to use them to explore just how ironclad the digital masquerade can be.
It Depends™®©. For the most part it would be more of the usual ''rich people doing horrible hit for their own amusement'' stuff until people leak some Ordo Dracul experimental logs.

>>92603470
When I was playing as a Ventrue, if I ever had exp to burn on stuff I didn't absolutely need, the two out of clan disciplines I'd go for first would be Auspex and Animalism. And Animalism is only second because we had a Nosferatu that had it mastered so less immediate need for it.

Honestly once you've got your modern nights infinite money glitch going, I could absolutely see Ventrue engaging in that sort of behavior. The shit mortal crazy rich people get up to is nuts enough, imagine what a cream of the crop Vampire that can rewrite memories might do for fun.

I do like Requiem Ventrue's "Lord of All" thing they have going with Animalism, I just wish it didn't come at the cost of Presence/Majesty.

>>92603499
>Conspiracies are also very fun and I love secret societies within secret societies.
Once you know the basics of how they work making your own becomes much easier.

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>>92603468
i personally really like the fun fact that the get fenrir in germany, the area they are the strongest in, are so scared of the local society of leopold because of how hard they kicked their ass during the inqusition and the fact that to this day they pretty successfully specialize in werewolf slaying, that they don't transform in front of people and if someone sees them they kill them all instead of relying on the delirum

quite a nice and rare humanity fuck yeah moment

kinda fucked up how it's completly legal in the eyes of the Camarilla to like skin another vampire as long as you make sure they don't die because of it

>>92603548
>I do like Requiem Ventrue's "Lord of All" thing they have going with Animalism, I just wish it didn't come at the cost of Presence/Majesty.
I know it's just me but Majesty/Dominate overlap is too much to put in a single character.
Even if Presence is busted in 1v1 scenarios.

>>92603590
Bodily harm is a lot less severe for vampires.

>>92603590
it would be legal for every sect wouldn't it? nothing in the sabbat code forbids that (tzimisce make sure of it) and the anarchs have no unified code

so if you want to ban bodily harm, skinning, murdering of infants etc you gonna have to do it on the local level

>>92603586
I don't really follow WtA lore myself but that is interesting. It does follow though that organized, aware humans would actually be a huge threat to Werewolves, who rely much more on brute force. Since silver isn't really that hard to get and make into a bullet. I'm more impressed on how they beat down the Get back in medieval times. Silver crossbow bolts?

>>92603548
Ask your ST to get Animalism instead of Fortitude next time you play a Ventrue. Maybe you can justify as being from a lineage where that's common.

>>92603590
Skin is small time. I remember one of my character having her liver ripped out in front of the whole damn Elysium.

>>92603641
silver was something the society had a lot because it was funded by a noble family the cursed von Murnau in bavarian + true faith powered inqusitors (of which Leopold von Murnau was one) who had a lot more active abilities in exchange of self inflicted "curses" on them due to the dark thing they had to do for the church (dark age: inqusition turns true faith into a entire splat) + their versions of theurges (faith based sorcerey nothing to do with werewolf spirit gifts) also been way more common back then

and also the fact that leopold the absolute madlad that he was, was not above using his part of the bavarian army to hunt "devils"

>>92603699
>Skin is small time. I remember one of my character having her liver ripped out in front of the whole damn Elysium.
Why? more specifically, why the liver?

>>92603707
Oh, old Leopold himself fought them directly, huh? That explains it.

>>92603699
I've seen the cartel videos and I can tell you that being skinned is not "small time"

>>92603235
I am not the anon you think I am. More than one person is annoyed by your shit.

I'm just glad you finally admitted you were wrong

>>92602608
The game is in Owod but I love the idea of monsters who were never human trying to become one

It's a fun inversion of Vampires abandoning humanity, seeking a cure they will never obtain, or accepting what they are and clinging to what humanity is left

>>92603598
I understand the thinking there but, in my experience, they actually complement each other very well. Together the two disciplines offer you near total control over an individual's actions, and you can use which ever one is best suited to your current situation.

>>92603874
yeah, leopold in general is the giga chad of wod going from being a sickly child and cursed child to a knight and inquisitor who was so awesome that we was granted special dispensation by the pope

he fought his brother who got embowered by fae and a earthbound and went to Scholomance to learn magic and still leopold killed him (how is up to the st because it's a story hook to get inqusitors to hunt dark age winter fae, but we know leopold somehow won),
he went to war with the get fenris and again als won, and he also managed to absorb all the other inqusitor orders that at the beginning of his career looked down on him and his "cursed little familly", he also burned a lot of brujah elders in bavaria, but in comparision that is nearly not worth mentioning

absolute chad

>>92603931
I did no such thing, you gaslighting, autistic twat.

>>92603499
There's always the Inconnu.

Also, i had a group of kindred aligned together for the sole purpose of guarding what may or may not have been an antideluvean crypt. It was a mix of different vampires from different backgrounds & loyalties.

>>92601690
Dracula literally made himself immortal to spite God for letting his first wife die of the black plague.

>>92603378
I had an Italian Ventrue restaurant owner who fed on food critics. When he catered to exclusive gigs the special ingredient was vitae. Momma Mia so much spilled tomato sauce!

>>92594769
>Implying you could kill a Giovanni
Heh, keep talking shit online Brujah dumbass. The Giovanni are the only clan with their ducks in a row.

>>92604115
How many times have you used that buzzword already? Also you 100% did admit you are wrong, my friend, don't deny it now

>>92595585
Technology was lesser and it was easier to feed and not get caught. There's just more vampires per person. Modern nights generally estimates at about 1 in 100,000. For dark ages I'd go as far as saying you could have 1 kindred to every 500 people, if they're willing to eat a cow every once in a while. Which is another big advantage. Animals are everywhere. Drain a cow dry and let your kine butcher it and eat the meat, its a win-win. Any vampire that just exclusively subsists on animals will have an easy time

>>92604273
Not Brujah bro. And if ducks you mean dicks, & by row you meant mothers I would agree.

>>92603746
Long story. The character had the Conspicuous Consumption flaw (had to eat body parts when feeding, similar to Nagaraja clan curse, usually hearts and livers).
When making a deal with one particularly shady NPCs a threat of eating his liver if we get played was leveraged, and one's threats are only good if one has reputation for carrying them through, so it had to be done - jumped the guy, gave him good old Prometheus treatment, stuffed the body down the gutter so that he can pull himself back together and that would be the end of it.
The NPC decided to make stink about it with open acussation at the Elysium. So the girl decided to own it, pleaded guilty and immediately proposed to make amends "eye for an eye and liver for a liver" to which Prince agreed, so insted of whatever sympathy or political clout the damn snake was hoping to get he had to settle for a slab of meat spiced with public humiliation.

>>92604293
> How many times have you used that buzzword already?
Which, autistic, gaslighting, or twat? Twice, twice, and once, respectively, and not including this post.

> Also you 100% did admit you are wrong, my friend
No, I didn’t. Clarification of a point is not an admission of being wrong, especially when we’re arguing over terminology used to generalize something. Age = power is true often enough among Cainites that it’s pointless to argue otherwise.

Put another way, if I was arguing that Earth was a sphere, and then clarified “oblate spheroid”, that wouldn’t be an admission that I’m wrong when I’m arguing against a Flat Earther (you, in this context), because treating the Earth as spherical is good enough and close enough for ninety-five percent of the arguments a sane person makes against a Flat Earther.

>>92604382
> Which, autistic, gaslighting, or twat? Twice, twice, and once, respectively, and not including this post.
Actually just double-checked and here I will admit I was wrong: while I’d written “autistic” twice, I’d actually only used it as an insult once. The other time was in response to being *called* an autist by pointing out that that’s not the same thing as being wrong.

So in the sense of, “how often have you called someone an autist in this thread”, just once.

>>92603391
This anon >>92603468 summed it up for me but I'd change Valkyrie for VASCU and add Lucifuge in as well

>VASCU
I just find them cooler, I also never liked having the government being in the known about the supernatural in my settings so just having a secret division focused on catching serial killers by using some psionic pseudoscience is more to my liking

>Lucifuge
All of these thoughts runnin' through my head
Arm on fire, veins burnin' red
Frustration is gettin' bigger
Bang, bang, bang, pull my Devil Trigger

>>92604382
You just moved the goal posts & then made some absurd analogy.

>>92604462
Lol, what a faggot you actually when back to look

>>92603468
Network Zero have always intrigued me too. Given theat they lack that physical presence (when it comes to monster busting at least), I wonder how you'd keep a campaign interesting. It'd be tough to spend the whole campaign just doing reconaissance and passing that info along to a third party, but having the PCs get hands-on feels like it'd defeat the point of the Compact?

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>>92604222
>who fed on food critics
Fucking kek, tasteful idea. Perhaps yours had a better time being the owner since I was trying to create a ventrue french chef, unmatched with a knife and as a chance to practice my french. Though I wasn't sure to characterize him as jovial and perverted to capitalize on the trope of the dirty frenchman, permanently pissed-off he has to control the beast near flame or can't taste his creations without the Eat Food merit, or more on the brink of a nervous collapse ala Pizza Tower's Peppino.

>>92604588
What about an American Italian Vampire chef who tries to be a real Italian chef but his view of them are cartoonish stereotypes

>>92604576
I also have an issue with Network Zero, although I like the idea of "THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE WAKE UP SHEEPLE" hunters I like to keep the supernatural hidden to the point even hunters uphold the masquerade because "if normies knew they could become immortal vampires we might just actually end up getting even more vampires than we can handle"and I feel like a Net 0 game would revolve around dismantling the masquerade

>>92604222
>>92604588

Fine dining is such an underrated political and financial tool. Gets you in the right circle of powerful people and you'd be amazed at the stuff people say while eating. Could be an excellent information farm while lining your pockets.

>>92604531
Ah. I see we’ve reached the “helpless gesticulation and frantic needling” part of you losing the argument.

Don’t worry, at least you’re not the ‘tard Anon who tried to claim the Tremere always move in perfect lockstep and unity. That guy was easy to prove wrong without me even needing to bring up anything from V5 or even V20.

>>92603391
Developmental Neogenetics Amalgamated.
"We don't give a shit about these moon-worshipping wolf-mutants except for what sort of medical tech we can distill from their body parts."

>>92603590
>>92603887
Is skinning a vampire even really feasible? They're supposed to be extremely durable, I dont think slow-cutting would have much of an effect

>>92604576
Net Zero work best in a mixed-organization game. Where you can play the party nerd and abuse computers with your fellow PCs handling the actual violence. Besides, your ass might need to get involved physically anyway out of self-preservation.

>>92604664
It's something that can bring them into conflict with other Hunters. Hunters fearing an end to the Masquerade is a sensible stance I think is often understated into the lore. With Network Zero you should lean into the internet free speech, conspiracy nut, warrior of truth stuff. If running all Net Zero, turn that shit into a game where you know you're right, you collect irrefutable truth and post it online only to be called a schizo by the world.

>>92600999
14th: Max discipline 4
15th: Max discipline 3
16th: Max discipline 2
Then Dhampir. 16th breed Dhampir consistently, I believe.

>>92604711
We truly live in dark times.
What's next? A 17th gen "generation alpha"?

https://files.catbox.moe/2be8lt.mp3

>>92604813
>the forbidden succ

>>92604681
I've won. You've conceded & then reneged. And to be fair, I've been needling you this entire time, it's not a new development. You've been shitting up this thread for a while my friend, but its okay to let it end

>>92604844
A three dot background & a set of balls & its not forbidden

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Stat him.
(No, he cannot be kindred because he can explicitly walk during daylight)

>>92604986
Who is this motherfucker?

>>92605015
I'm assuming it's Book Dracula. That matches his appearance when Harker meets him in Romania.

>>92604986
He's clearly a liche or Nephandus of some type. Studied the dark arts at The Scholomance

>>92604871
> I've won.
You haven’t even advanced. You have no strong argument against the Anarch who points out that the entrenched power of the elder means zero advancement opportunities for the younger generation and how batshit insane it is to expect neonates to be okay with taking orders from someone who still thinks that steel is the wave of the future. The closest you’ve come is saying “well that’s just how vampires necessarily work”, while ignoring and downplaying that the Anarch Free State showed for fifty years that it *can* work differently while still successfully defending itself from outside interference by both Camarilla and Sabbat.

It didn’t fall because of its ideals, it fell because of an invasion by an outside context problem that there really isn’t any reason to suspect the Camarilla would have dealt with any better.

>>92604986
He's Drac. He found ways to slip the weaknesses of the curse of Caine. Don't hate a motherfucker & call it impossible just because your little lick ass can't even look at a flashlight without sizzling like bacon. You get no kine.

>>92605017
Thanks bro

>>92605054
You don't even know which anon I am half the time bro. You talk like some fucking shovelhead. Did your sire not teach you these things? Did they not introduce you to how the midnight society works? It's histories? It's politics? You want more power? Take it. Until then do what you can to not get murdered or blood bonded. Earn some boons, get in with the Sherrif, make friends with the Harpies. Kill that Elder you hate so bad, drink his soul, get away with it. All the upward mobility in the world

>>92604464
The Lucifuge are very fun mechanically and have great potential but I find the actual culture of the Conspiracy a bit annoying.

>>92605131
I'm pretty sure he thinks you're me, I stopped arguing with him half a thread because it was going nowhere.

You're honestly best off not engaging. Dude's either trolling or has a very skewed view on the setting he will not budge on.

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>>92604661
Also a great framing device for me to both justify my poor accent, keep practicing the language, and quote The Spy as much as possible.
>>92604667
Definitely something to use in political intrigue, albeit much easier as the restaurant manager/catering business owner than the cook.

>>92604986
If you don't want to use the stuff that let's you walk in daylight, you could just make him a high xp Sorcerer with a very autistic build.
I don't really know how to stat him CofD without making either a vampire or horror.

>>92605131
> You don't even know which anon I am half the time bro.
Nor do I care, because you’re all interchangeable in your wrongness.

>Kill, kill, kill
Say hi to Humanity 1 for me as you fall past it, assuming you’re even capable of speech at that point.

Have you just forgotten that most young vampires aren’t exactly eager to go around killing for power as part of a game that they might not have even wanted to be part of? Have you just forgotten that it’s mechanically impossible to create a vampire with a Humanity score lower than 5 at character creation? A Humanity 5 person is okay with hurting and killing *when necessary* but they don’t go out of their way looking for opportunities to do so. The core rulebooks expressly describe them as merely “unpleasant”, not the monster you’re describing.

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The last thing you watched is now part of CofD or WoD. How would you use that in a game?

i have everything prepped for my next session in a vtm wild west chronicle, but i do have one major issue.

music.

it's been a tradition for my group to put on some ambient music and shit, probably the same for other groups idk, but im really struggling to find good, dark, ambient music befitting the wild west. the best i've gotten so far is some tracks from fallout new vegas and the red dead redemption undead nightmare soundtrack, any suggestions /WoDg/?

>>92605221
non non biyori huh.
cute girls doing cute vampire things in the countryside I guess

>>92605221
>vinesauce joel playing garten of banban
i blame pentex

>>92605228
not very dark but Rango

>>92605221
>Yugioh
Mage mixed with a children's card games

>>92605231
Ren-chon is defnitely a Mage though

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>>92605221
>Breaking Bad
Already deals in shady cartels, forbidden substance handling, and industrial conspiracies aplenty while also having a deep human and ethical component.

>>92605237
>Joel is being sponsored by Pentex to sell performance enhancing pills
Which are just gas station dick pills with demon spit in them

>>92605265
joel was reluctant to accept the advertisement until they told him the truth. the banban devs are just fomori. they're putting banes inside the creatures.

>>92605221
>William Hanson the etiquette harpy
I've thought about that before, so nothing really new.
If only movies/series allowed:
The Cinema Paradiso guys are all mortals and should stay so. Maybe a spirit from the cinema itself could be used. I like the idea of once powerful spirits who are now decrepit and weak.

>>92605221
>Godzilla x Kong The New Empire
Kaiju the Cataclysm incoming

>>92605265
Yes, spit...
>>92605246
You are the group Nosferau ghouls filming the show.
>>92605237
I don't think Pentax would sponsor that. Even the Wyrm would find that so trashy it wouldn't eat it.

>>92605171
> I stopped arguing with him half a thread because it was going nowhere.
Dimes to dollars it’s because you forgot the original point and I didn’t.

As a reminder, it’s:
>>92594459
> i still can't figure out a single good talking point the anarchs have.

The point isn’t about whether or not anything I’m saying - what the Anarchs are saying - is objectively correct. The point is whether or not what the Anarchs says appeals to their target audience. A talking point is “good” based on whether or not people agree with it, not whether or not it’s correct. Whether or not by bringing it up you can get people to follow you. And given that the Anarchs have had neonates and ancillae defecting to them in a fairly steady stream over their throughline argument of “just because someone’s older than you doesn’t mean he should rule you”, I’d say it’s pretty self-evident that it’s a good talking point by any rational measure.

>>92605228
Pretty sure I’ve mentioned that I don’t have a World of Darkness so much as a World of Turn On the Damn Light I Stubbed My Toe, but songs I’ve been listening to when making Clanbook: Caitiff include:

>“Cry Little Sister”, G Tom Mac
>”Isolated”, Chiasm
>”Twilight Zone”, Golden Earring
>”House of Wolves”, My Chemical Romance
>”Personal Jesus”, Depeche Mode
>”Dragula”. Rob Zombie
>”Theme from Angel”, Darling Violetta
>”Freak on a Leash”, Akron
>”Plastic Heart”, Nostalghia
>”Nothing Else Matters”, Metallica
>”Mitternacht”, E Nomine
>”Inner Universe”, Origa

It’s exceedingly poppy, I know, but it puts me in a vampire mood.

>>92604707
>If running all Net Zero, turn that shit into a game where you know you're right, you collect irrefutable truth and post it online only to be called a schizo by the world.
Yeah, I think that would be kind of frustrating for the players even though it kind of fits WoD(vampires are doomed to stab each other's backs, werewolves are doomed to fuck up and get 10 loses for every win, changelings are doomed to grow up and hunters are doomed to never be taken seriously). I guess I could always just do a chronicle with the winning condition being to overthrow the masquerade and then go back to regular games where that never happened
>>92605152
What you don't like about them?

>>92605211
I'm one of a kind bitch, you better respect it. Time for my wall of text, get ready I'm going in deep

You keep speaking for one narrow shovelhead retard point of view. If you're a vampire you knew what you were getting in to & if don't think liking an Elder for liberty isn't worth getting your hands dirty I guess the killing wasn't necessary, go great the sun or fall in line. Not every vampire is Louis constantly at odds with his nature. You don't ha e to go full beast to play politics you hippie commie fuck. Drinking blood every night but won't raise a hand against an elder? Will kill Cam neonates with an Anarch carbomb though won't you? You're just a coward too spineless to challenge anyone. Too scared to kill. Too weak to grab strength. Power is the fundamental particle of exisistance. Power comes in a thousand forms & is never equal. You say "oh I don't like the Cam, I want to be independent" well what happens when the Cam comes to town motherfucker? You can't peacefully protest a Gangrel gone savage. You can't petition a Setite to return your internal organs. You'll have to fight & kill to protect your peace. Say goodbye to that Humanity you hypocritical fuck.

The Cam does have upward mobility. You just gotta play the game. But you won't because you're a pussy bitch. You want your voice to be heard but you can't even muster the balls to clear your throat. You're a feckless lick who whispers desention solely because YOU aren't at the top & your arrogant enought to think you belong where your betters have earned their place. You are a worthless piece of shit. You shift your Swiss cheese argument every which way you can, but can never counter anyone else's objections except with appeals to a minority perspective. Every point you make is at odds with another one you've spewed. You can't keep your story straight. You cant argue for shit. It's pathetic.

>>92605221
Ben 10 (watched it with my son) just got more interesting

>>92605228
Hank Williams Jr. The soundtrack to any John Wayne western. Blazing Saddles. Just play country western. Specifically country western by the way. Not modern country pop

>>92605468
>Ben 10
Hal Jordan suddenly appears and btfo ben.

>>92605328
>A talking point is “good” based on whether or not people agree with it, not whether or not it’s correct

Yet your the only bitch in the thread who supports the Anarchs... by your own logic you've failed

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>>92605240
>>92605482
Good suggestions but I should've mentioned that the overall tone of this campaign is intensely inspired by Blood Meridian, Hank Williams Jr. I don't know about, I've never listened to much of his stuff. I do have a few colter wall songs picked out for certain moments but I'm mostly looking for instrumentals.

>>92605221
>Prisoners of Ghostland
A brief detour into the Hegde?

>>92605521
David Allen Coe is also great though not so PC if that matters. I'd Google "dark western music" & poke around

>>92605500
I was thinking Deviant but focused on aliens.

>>92605545
Clade Companion when

>>92605436
>What you don't like about them?

It's been a minute since I read their fluff but they give me Cult vibes, which can get in the way of a story or a good character arc about reconciling your demonic heritage with who you are.

>>92605558
Soon(TM).

>>92605221
>X-men
I don't.

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>>92605221
The real question is, is Marceline still the vampire queen?

>>92605521
https://stevenlynn.bandcamp.com/album/soundtrack-from-an-imaginary-western

>>92605512
I note with varying degrees of interest that you completely wiffed on the part where I said “target audience”. Neither of us are neonate vampires who have nothing to look forward to be an eternity of slavery beneath our elders, Anon.

>>92605458
>I'm one of a kind bitch
That’s what they all say.

>If you're a vampire you knew what you were getting in to
Pfah! You’ve failed already. Right off the top of my head, the stereotypical Gangrel embrace method is to nab two or three prospects without warning, Embrace them; abandon them for a few years, and then eventually come back for whoever survived and take that one as your childe. And since I know you’ll bitch if I don’t name a source, it’s literally the backstory of Ramona, the iconic Gangrel in Revised Edition, and her Embrace is treated as totally normal for both her side Tanner specifically and for the Gangrel generally. You can read Clan Novel: Gangrel if you don’t believe me.

Nosferatu embrace beautiful, vain people as a punishment too. They don’t check and see if the prospect is okay with it first. They’re FAMOUS for it. It’s not literally the only people they Embrace, but it happens often enough that there’s an ironic name for the victims of this and everything.

That’s two Camarilla clans right off the bat who don’t give a shit of their prospect knows they’re about to be a vampire and gice the prospect no choice. Or one and a half I’d you want to take into account that the Gangrel left the Camarilla in the original VtM run, but only a few years before Gehenna.

>>92605592
Not soon enough. Although it could be next week.

>>92605597
X-Men is great Deviant fodder though, so you're missing out

>>92605649
Deviant moved out of layout hell, so we are probably getting it in a few weeks.

>>92605436
NTA but I dislike them because of the whole devil lady of Milan & shit. I want my demon children to be interlinked by happenstance, omens, & infernal visions. Sometimes you get nightmares that lead you to help a fellow orphan of hell, sometimes one of your own helps you. You don't talk much. It's better that way. If you don't follow the leads sometimes bad things happen. Sometimes to others, sometimes to you. Is it penance & punishment from the power behind this organization or was it simply the consequences of doing nothing? If you ever actively work against the power that can't be seen men in black coats with silver pentagram rings come...

>>92605221
>RiffTrax Live: Space Mutiny

Fang Hardblood!
Lick Frenzykill!
Vamp Nightstalk!

>>92605628
No.

Anyone else post that they were one in a million? No? Guess no one else is saying it but me champ, but good effort trying.

>>92605638
So a few deviant cases is what you're going with? Can you make a single argument that isn't one outlier presented as the absolute fact?

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What's are the best powers to spam the shit out of? I want to play a Sixteenth gen guy to see what's their deal.

>>92605799
>So a few deviant cases is what you're going with?
Anon almost literally every clan Embraces out of passion, or doesn’t let their would-be Embracee know about vampires until the Embrace happens, at which point the victim has a choice of either death or vampirism (the only major exception is Giovanni, who both aren’t relevant to the discussion and have a whole other set of issues). The introductory story in the Revised core rulebook has a vampire state that fact plainly: “there is no way you’re walking out of this alive. You can walk out of it dead, though.” The original story from the 1e book involves a photographer force-embraced by some Mesopotamian bint. This is presented as the NORM, not the exception. Embracees aren’t given a choice of the red pill of vampirism or the blue pill of a normal life; it’s the red pill of vampirism or just being straight-up killed. And often they don’t even get the “death” choice.

The fact that these vampires don’t have the stomach to commit suicide after the fact by watching a sunrise (and, NB, there’s a strong chance the Beast won’t even let them make the attempt) doesn’t imply consent for everything that follows, just resigned acceptance because they are given no other real choice.

>>92605736
Edge Bloodmoon!
Sucker McDiablerie!.
Shovel von Largehead!

>>92605986
Claw Furrypelt!
Wane Gaiafist!
Wolf Blitzer! …wait.

>>92605923
Its illegal to create Childe without the Prince's permission. There's also a lot of ghoul to vamp culture. It's like you keep picking a single vector & pretending it's the norm. It's like you've done this with everything, & I keep telling you how you're retarded.

>>92606051
Don Knots!