>be me>farmer in cormyr>working the fields all day long>it's hard work, but get to blow off steam in the festhall later so it's ok>life's good>come home one evening>sit down to have dinner with the family>wife drops her fork, bend down to pick it up for her since I'm a NG chad>wait what's this>there's an old orange someone dropped by the table leg>grab it too>fuck, it's got mould on it>gotta throw it out with the trash>wait>it's got mould on it>my wife screams but it's too late>some elf chucklefuck is already in our home>power word kills my entire family>'nothing personnel, maybe you shouldn't have recklessly advanced technology'>go to wall of the faithless since I worshipped all good gods equally and hadn't really picked a favorite>suffer for eternity
>>92593148It seems to me that you were not a chad after all.
I don't get what mold has to do with advancing technology.
>>92593561>I don't get-Good, now move along citizen
>>92593561Penicillin is derived from a type of common food mold.
>>92593561I think he was referring to pe
>>92593598EXPLOSIVE RUNES
>>92593148>the elf is le evilReddit.>you can choose your own afterlifeStupidest idea ever.
>>92593561Elves invented advances technology and OP hates that.
>>92593821This post was typed by elven hands>>92593829Elves didn't invent shit. Look, I can let my bread go mouldy and ta
>Harper thread>748,630 replies later>Harpers suck>the end
So if you manage to whack every Harpernigger that tries to fuck with you and your advance technology, Elminster will be the one next to knock on your door?
>>92594296He will but not because he heard of the technology, he has a quest for you that for some reason he can't do himself.
>>92593148Wow, it's another anti-Harper fag starting another anti-Harper thread.
I wonder who could be behind this
>>92593978Oh crap, Candlejack is an e
>>92594308If you were that powerful, would you want to bother with most quests? Why not attend to more important matters/lay around and fuck bitches on a higher plane? I'm pretty sure one or both of these is the general assumption for why he pawns it off on PCs so much
>>92593148>Walled for worshipping equally????Even if you don't worship a god can claim you just because they like you.The wall only happens to people who are so militant atheist that they've actively burned down churches or attacked priests of every god, as in psychopaths who are so dysfunctional that it's amazing society hasn't put them down.When Myrkul was in charge of the wall it was easier to get in, but that's because he made it specifically to be a dick since Myrkul is the biggest dick in all of Faerun and that's part of what made him the best god of the dead.
>>92593148Whats the Setting, I am Intruiged now
>>92594676DnD’s forgotten realm
Its not enough to discover mould, or even discover THE mould. You have to discover it specifically within the context of its antimi-
>>92593561As you shouldn't. Back to your fields, peasant. Remember to respect elves, they are all good aligned, specifically Chaotic Good, and NONE OF THEM are in ANY way evil.
>>92593598SHUT IT DOWN
>>92596082This is a truthful statement. Dwarves drink the blood of human children but will always say humans, elves, or gnomes do it.
>>92593148>>92593561Hey guys. So using metal tubes and glass lenses, I invented an image magnification device that can be used to observe things far away. Using it, I watched a ship go out to sea and to my surprise it disappeared below the horizon! What could this mean?
>>92596589Means that you're genuinely retarded and a secondary who knows nothing about the setting.
>>92593148>"Forgotten Realms? That's that backwater plane full of idiots who are afraid of magic yeah?"
>>92593148So when does Gond team up with Bane and Tempus and declare a holy war on the Harpers?I mean, I guess Gond needs to stop being a pussy but let's pretend he manages to do that and gets onboard with warfare on an industrial scale, for the sake of argument.
>>92596792>Forgotten Realms: HaRpErS dEsTrOy AlL TeChNoGeRy!!!1>Also Forgotten Realms: Watterdeep has a spaceport and you can buy airships at most large cities, seaports use steam powered cranes and carts to offload ships, wars are waged with lightning shooting siege artillery It's safe to say there's a huge disconnect between meme version Harpers and in-game Harpers. And yeah, that gnome filled island of Gond worshipers with huge airship fleet is still a thing.
>>92596952>meme version HarpersGreenwood has literally posted on Twitter about how they oppose technological advancement unilaterally because it "destroys the balance" for anyone to have an advantage over others.
>>92596952I just hate the Harpers and think they all deserve to die.I'd give Arilyn Moonblade a pass if she renounces Harperism and lets me Elminster her, but otherwise she gets strung up too.
>go to Vilhon Reach>spread "rumours" (that are literally just the fucking truth) about Harpers>the entire Reach expels all Harpers and bounties them>Harpers unable to make further inroads into the region>suddenly advancement begins, everything is more stable not less, and you get actual competent governance that doesn't need to rely on CIA and the sort of tactics that would give 1984 fanboys wet dreamsIt has been factually proven that the Harpers are a net negative for society in Faerun, as evidenced by places where they are locked out.
>>92596952No. The setting in inconsistent with tech / magic tech. But the harpers have always opposed it.Because i guess keeping the mortal plane far weaker than the elementals, fey, and fiends is somehow fucking balance.The harpers are the most poorly written faction of the setting.
>>92596952Just because they fail to achieve their objective some times doesn't mean they don't terrorize innocent people to try to enforce their ideology. The cults and secret societies don't always automatically win after all.
>>92593148>>92593598Penicillium mold is useless medicinally without a way to extract penicillin itself from it. That farmer was closer to inventing blue cheese than antibiotics.
>>92593148>HarpersAbsolutely absurd Reddit take.>Wall of the faithlessCouldn't have worshipped them very well if not a single one of them wanted you.>>92593821You don't *really* choose where you go, one of them chooses if they want you. I you worshipped them, good chance they want you. The wall of the faithless is of nobody wants you.
>>92594676Forgotten Realms, 2e/3e era, read through retard goggles. (Or Zhentish propaganda).
>>92596082Sure sure, by the by, we rounded up your co conspirators for trying to assassinate The Sad Queen, and we have you surrounded. Not guilty you say? Here. Draw this Moonblade.
>>92596589Kraken got the ship. Poor crew.
>>92597017Yeah but is the Vilhon Reach a collage of simple minded content yeomen farmers managed by socially progressive cosmopolitan cities.If not then the Harpers will come for you.
>>92596989Just because they oppose tech doesn't mean they go around butchering families for accidentally making medical discoveries. That's just bullshit Zhent propaganda.But yes. The Harpers are wrong, and Khelben was right to found the Moonstars.
>>92598132>doesn't mean they go around butchering familiesThey are happy to cover up butchered families when it's an elf doing the butchering though. Repeatedly.
>>92598847Prove it, retard.
>>92593148>Mfw, me a Harn aristocrat, sees a Forgotten Realms thread
>>92598950
>>92596952wrong. waterdeep has a massive SEAPORTspelljammers are in ASTRAL SPACE and are all magic. not technologyand only halruaa has flying ships, as they are a little outpost of the fucking netheril and again, WIZARDS making magic shit that ignores physics and reality.
>>92593148Why would there be tropical fruits in a temperate climate like Cormyr?
>>92594296>>92594308>>92594457Elminster has distanced himself from the Harpers like a century ago.
>>92594145The truth shines through
>>92594145I dont disagree but why are you coming into the thread about THING I DONT LIKE and bitch about it?
>>92599486> making magic shit that ignores physics and reality.if it exists it's part of reality and operates under the physics of the universeMagic is part of physics and devices that use it are technology
>>92593602F for anon, shouldn’t have commited thougtcrime against elfdom.
>>92599206>literally covering up the existence of elven naziswell, that's pretty wild also technically not nazis but merely 'supremacist'- there's no single elven nation I know of but at least it answers my question of 'what kind of elves would willingly team up with drow?'If they cover-up groups like that, do you think there are some elven serialkillers out there in faerun who get covered by them just because the harpers can't stand the thought of evil elves existing at all?imagine going to court and being like>well, I obviously can't be evil because I'm an elf- ask my harper buddies and today I got a cool new tattoo idea
>>92600048>there's no single elven nation I know ofEvermeet and Evererska tho Evereska is more of a city-state.Funnily enough they are the only ones left and have a rule of generally killing humans on sight.I wonder if this is why they are still around unlike all the others.
>>92593148where can I read the truth about [[[them]]]?
>>92599206Gotta say, I hadn't seen that one before. That's retarded.
>>92602344The Lands of Intrigue Box talks more about Veluuthra antics that Harpers cover up, it's kind of absurd honestly.Cloak & Dagger has a little bit as well.
>>92599726Not according the the Harpers. Magic takes effort to learn to use. Harpers are limiting technology that can't be controlled, to preserve the status quo. Halruaan skyships aren't mass produced so any peasant can use one to bomb the kingdom.Like, the Harpers aren't really good, they're just less evil than the Zhents. They want to preserve the status quo, except when they can push towards "the dream of myth drannor", aka an impractical multicultural utopia they want to export to the world.
>>92600048They're genocidal supremacists.>>92600048There are several elven nations. But yeah, the Eldreth Veluthra essentially want to exterminate the humans and have the Sun Elves rule all other elves, and rebuild the ancient elven empire of Aryvandar (or some equivalent), from what I recall. (Basically the same as house Dlardrageth, who bred with demons, devils, and yugoloths and made a whole population of elf-tieflings). Both will work with Drow, too; IIRC.
>>92602494The EV hate both the Fey'ri and the Drow more than they hate humans, it's listed as essentially being the only thing they'll cooperate with humans on (or, more accurately, trick humans into dealing with for them).
>>92600250And the star elves in the pocket plane of the sildeyuir (in the yuirwood), though by 1374 it's in a state of collapse. And by mid 1375, they're rebuilding Myth Drannor, because a bunch if elves concluded the retreat to ever meet was a mistake and Elves need to play a role in helping deal with threats to Faerûn.>>92600634Code of the Harpers; Cloak & Dagger; >>92602401 Lands of Intrigue boxed set apparently; and the various harpers novels - though be warned, they cancelled the final book of the Arilyn Moonblade series without an ending because the author couldn't meet her deadline to wrap it up satisfyingly, so while the individual novels are still pretty good IMO, her particular character arc never gets a proper conclusion.
>>92602606Oh. I stand corrected then. They're so similar to the Fey'ri in their beliefs and goals, I figures by would be begrudging allies, even if the Feyri weren't sun elf enough for them.
>>92602709I believe embracing the demonic taint of literal hell was a bridge too far for the elven purist and supremacists secret society. If half-elves are abominations to them due to mixing blood with human vermin then I can see mixing blood with actual hellspawn being worse. And the drow are demon fuckers too, ontop of worshipers of Lolth who most elves hate as traitor for consorting with demons and trying to usurp and murder Corellon on multiple occasions.
>>92603196Yeah, the Feyri see themselves as still sun elves (and some of them are), but they're much more concerned with elf world domination (with them at the top), and are not picky about *which* elves are included so long as they're onboard with elf empire dominion, which is why they'll work with Vhaeraunites.I can see how the EV could hate them for not being pure sun elves, but I find it funny given that otherwise they have basically the same overall wants.
>>92603196>>92603286if the day ever comes when Lolth kicks the bucket we'll have some VERY interesting developments>or the elves will be like: Vhaeraun?Eilistraee? Sorry, I don't speak drow- have fun killing each other down there
>>92603340Eilistraeeans an Vhaeraunites, I think mostly run into each other on or near the surface, no? I don't think there are a lot of Eilistraeean enclaves in the underdark proper. I think it would be Vhaeraun with some Ghaunadan and Kiaransaleean outposts.'Course, Hasbro went in a retarded direction with them after like 2004, and killed them all off leading up to 4e, and then realized "wait, gutting the setting that setting fans like to appeal to the players who hate settings) is unpopular and loses us more sales than it gets? Oh. Whoops".Fuck 4e. Fuck Hasbro.
>>92603437Also fuck Loren Greenwood and Rob Heinsoo.
>>92603286Well the current EV leadership prefers sun elf leadership, but they'll accept any *pure* elf into their organization. The sun bias apparently stems from the whole thing being started by sun elf noble families and the classic secret society shtick of mostly inducting family member to grow the ranks. The EV is also still very big on venerating the traditional elven pantheon, so that's probably where many of the hang-ups about consorting with drow and lowplane spawn come from. Though apparently the elven gods don't appreciate them back or allow their clerics to have anything to do with them.
>>92594296Harpers generally won't bother peasants except maybe to get them to tell them how penicillin works. The exception being the crazy Anti-Gunpowder splinter group.Typically their targets are powerful people hoarding/using new technology to gain control over entire regions. Basically, OP is a liar and probably a Zhentarim plant.
>>92603437>>92603495And fuck whoever thought adopting Vancian magic was a good idea and everyone after that who decided to stick with it. Vancian magic is a terrible system for actually playing.
>>92593148>I hate the harpers because they fuck with technology get on my level weaklings
>>92603528I actually really like prepared spells and how they make you plan in advance, but yeah, the UA variant of "you can prepare X spell levels" is better than rigid slots.
>>92603528Vancian magic is fine; the problem is that people keep trying to find a narrative explanation for a gamist feature.
>>92603688>trying to find.What's difficult about it? You're actually building/casting the spells in advance and then activating them as needed, and can only hold so many at a time. Granted, it made even more sense in AD&D when they were 10/15 min per spell level to prep, rather than a flat 1h for however many you can hold. Always made sense to me.
>>92603688spells are complicated and need components and wizard have a vast array of spells but only so much time, money and resources in actual battleeasier to choose from ten spells prepared in one day with components at hand than looking at your components first and then thinking long and hard about which spell to use at the current time while your party gets slaughtered
>>92603760Especially if that 6th level spell would take you an hour to cast if you didn't prepare it in advance.
>>92603515I think some errata for 3/3.5 mentioned Shevarash accepting them, and also the Fey’ri as long as they hated Drow.
>>92602446>Not according the the Harpers.because they are retarded >Magic takes effort to learn to use. that is partially artificial as Volo had to be forcefully stopped from publishing a much easier method of learning magicAlso technology can be very trick to build and operate >Harpers are limiting technology that can't be controlledno, they are preventing tech that can be easily used > to preserve the status quonot a good thing> any peasant can use one to bomb the kingdom.yeah because the first thing peasants would do with those are bombing kingdoms that would have the magitech to prevent that if not by the harpers> they're just less evil than the Zhentsno, they only have better PR>They want to preserve the status quo, except when they can push towards "the dream of myth drannor"that doesn't make than good
Would "take down the Harpers" be a job for a mid or high level party? The more I think about it it sounds like a gangster as fuck game concept, like Deus Ex but in fantasy.
>>92596589Well, it's a submarine you see.
>>92605902I thought volo was prevented from providing particularly dangerous spells to the masses, not making magic easier to learn.>no, they are preventing tech that can be easily usedWhat's the difference?>not a good thingNope. Neutral, LN, or LE, depending on what they're keeping the same.>kingdoms that would have the magitech to prevent that if not by the harpersI never said the harpers were right.>no, they only have better PRHarpers don't go around killing civilians (though apparently they cover up elfnazi crimes).>that doesn't make than goodNope. I'd say they trend towards a very flawed LN (regardless of what the rulebooks label their actions), while the Zhents trend more NE. IMO Neither is good.Khelben's Moonstars is more actively good than the Harpers, even if they're only big-picture good and always playing the long game rather than reactionaries preserving the status quo because delusions.
>>92605972IIRC one of the seven sisters runs them. So your BBEG would be a level ~25 epic caster who would be able to call on a dozen or so other epic level castersto protect her (even if they wouldn't fight for her minions), including but not limited to Elminster, her step father.You'd need to take them down through politics, not violence, forcing them to reform or lose their epic level backer, rather than starting a war.I mean. You *could* kill her and all the 'good guys' who arrive to try to save her if you're high enough level before you start it, but you'll be handing the continent to the Sharran, Drow, Zhentarim, and Thayans in the process.
>>92605972>>92606674Elminster (35), Simbul (32), Silverhand (30), Blackstaff (27) because of Silverhand, and more would also get involved. If that many Chosen of Mystra get involved, you might really bite off more than you can chew.
You don't necessarily need to fight the level-bloated Enforcers Of DM's Status Quo to gut the Harper organization in a large enough area that they can't shut things down. Like any organization, most of its power comes from low-level members that have not the remotest reason to be ready for Scry-Or-Die, and it just so happens that there's a power-set back in 3.X infamous for warping campaigns with overuse of top-level effects. How many mooks do you think a party of four Psions can clear in a day?
Who's got the >I hate the antichrist!Meme but it's two Harpers trying to kill an artificer in goggles with a gun
>>92593148I thought the Wall was retconned years ago?
>>92602446Even at the height of Myth Drannor's alleged utopia, any non-elf was explicitly a second class citizen at best. If you passed an elf in the street, you were expected and required to bow and avert your eyes. And the elves also, during said utopian period, banned other races from immigrating to Myth Drannor (the ones already there were allowed to stay, but no new ones because it was changing the racial makeup and pushing elves into a minority... ironic).
>>92606674Storm doesn't run them any more, she trains newbies on her farm but doesn't run them. Elminster also no longer runs them, he is instead chief of the Waterdeep Secret Police.Laeral Silverhand does have some involvement with them, but she also operates the Moonstars and is distant from day to day operations. The Harpers are just about free from oversight as a result.
>>92596082>>92593148Why are Harpers considered a chaotic organization when their actions are peak Lawfag?
>>92605972With effort you can clear them out of particular regions. The Vilhon Reach is one example, the Harpers were actively run out because they wouldn't stop meddling.They unfortunately completely infest Cormyr and much of the North. Those places are a lost cause. But Amn, Tethyr, and Calimshan all expunged their Harper meddlers, so any footprint the group has there is exceptionally small because they are effectively Kill On Sight for all three nations.
>>92594296Depends. Elminster himself disowned the Harpers IIRC after they killed one too many innocents for his liking.
>>92608292My guess is because they act as decentralised cells with no clear hierarchy aside for individual standing and power.
These threads make me motivated to have my next pc be a artificer who has a “on sight” policy for harpersMake him talk like a paranoid conspiracy theorist
>>92608310It isn't a conspiracy if it's true anon.
>>92608313“I’m telling you! These elven fucks come on down and burn my workshop! Tell’n ME that I gots to not mess with the “status quo”. Alls because I took a commission from some military big shot. But I’ll show them! I’ll shows all of them thats I can mess with anythang I want! And ain’t no secret confederacy of bard gonna tells that likes of me what to do!”
>>92608302He kept trying to refound them to work better, and every single time they went off the fucking reservation and turned into the CIA except no oversight from anybody at all. So he eventually just gave up and moved to Waterdeep.
>>92593148I don't understand why people have an issue with this. Modernity is a cancer. Let's say you could stop Communism, social justice as a movement, or social media from being created.Like, let's say you could prevent the abolishment of slavery. Isn't that worth any sacrifice? Imagine if those fucks in China never got to learn how to build the internal combustion engine.
>>92608522Nobody likes a hypocrite who acts contrary to how he advertises himself. They're a neither chaotic nor good organization whose objective is to uphold the status quo in the name of a long-dead authority forever.
>>92606957Yeah. Trying to wipe out them all is a difficult task. May as well be trying to kill all the arch devils but Asmodeus.>>92607632>muh enforcers of status quo.Most just want to run their little countries unless a world ending threat comes along. But if you try to murder their close personal friends, they will get involved.>>92607632Sure. Running them out of an area is a very different proposition then trying to take them down.>>92607897Yes. The Harpers worship a fantasy that never was.>>92608276My mistake. My recollection of who runs them comes from my memory of the Spellfire novel, which is not set in 1374/1375.>>92608292Because of their disregard for political authorities and laws, I assume. The law chaos axis is consistently a mess in how many ways you could justify either call.
>>92593148Do Harpers police all of Toril or is it just topside Faerûn? Are they also over in Kara-Tur and down in Zakhara? Or even down in the Underdark? Do they collapse cave systems if people do too much inventing down there?
>>92609431Not even close, they are mainly limited to the North and Heartlands region, and some of the Moonsea. The majority of other places expelled them or they never managed to make real inroads to. If it's a place that Ed Greenwood doesn't really care about (so outside Cormyr and environs, Waterdeep, some of the North, the Sword Coast) then the Harpers may as well not be there in large part.
>>92609431>>92609776according to Baldurs Gate 3 Drow Harpers exist down there toothose we see are dead, and they're only a handful of drow, could just as well be all of them because it is really weird that lolth-sworn drow team-up with an organization like the Harpers who are very pro-elf it always weirded me out how only an Eilistraee-drow is angry about that
>>92609942I'm not familiar with how much the Realms have changed in new editions, let alone a videogame, but Eilistraee being all about redemption and finding the light in the dark would fucking hate the Harpers given their questionable goals and history of condemning people by association and their practice of blood guilt
>>92606611>What's the difference?tech that can be easily used is easily controlled by the people instead of being the monopoly of the powerful>Nope. Neutralretard, they are killing people and sabotaging projects to keep stagnation, that is evil >I never said the harpers were right.but you kept making excuses for them>Harpers don't go around killing civiliansthey do when civilian make any break through that can change the status quo in any way >though apparently they cover up elfnazi crimesmaking them accomplices and guilty of further crime>Nope. I'd say they trend towards a very flawed LNno, they aren't lawful and killing people and sabotaging advancement to keep the world stagnated along with covering up elven crimes is evil
You know, thinking about it Forgotten Realms & the Harpers represent perfectly a huge gear shift that's happened in D&D over the years.OD&D eventually had you become regional powers in and of yourselves as your party levelled up. You became lords, you became high priests, you became wizards with fancy titles.Or, to put it another way, you gained influence and power rather than just staying rando adventurers adventuring for the sake of adventure. There was actually something along the lines of a self-interest goal involved in delving old tombs.FR and particularly Mr Glowie seem to hold that idea in raw contempt and that's bled through into the game over the years.
>>92596589You got to love elves and their marine craftmanship.
>>92610687The entire point of the Sword Coast, the Dale Lands, and the Border Kingdoms was to give places for players to become barons.Places like Cormyr and Waterdeep were to give areas where becoming nobility were an option.Those days also said working with Harpers or killing them were both viable strategies.Just because D&D changed is hardly the fault of some guy who WotC purposely removed from the game
>>92610627>retardGotcha. No need for civility with you then.>its not about tech they can't control it's about tech that's easily used!>What's the difference>if its easily used they can't control who uses it.Are you huffing paint, illiterate, or incompetently ESL?>killing peopleThat has yet to be cited.>and sabotaging projects to keep stagnation.Stupidly maintaining the status quo is LN retardation.>making excusesNo, you're just fucking illiterate.>Harpers go around butchering civilians over tech development.In your headcanon, sure. Not in any published material I've seen. Though stealing the tech, yes. In the sources I've read they're lawful retarded more than psychotic serial killers.>they aren't lawfulThey're obsessively devoted to a code of conduct and maintaining the status quo, even if its shit. That's lawful retarded.>covering up elven crimes is evil.Depends on the motivation. Its evil if they want to encourage more elven crimes. Its mostly retarded if they're doing it "to prevent racism".You think they're effectively a CE demon cult. I think they're effectively a cult of deluded status quo obsessed LN retards with an LE sub theme. You seem to retardedly insist that LN retards with an LE subtheme makes them good guys. And of course, you have repeatedly demonstrated nigh-nonexistent reading comprehension.I don't believe you're capable of logical discussion at this point, so I'll be ignoring your replies for the rest of the thread now.
>>92610687I disagree.FR is just a higher level setting, and its not an uninhabited frontier land, its a renaissance land with city states.You can absolutely still get political power in Faerûn. It just happens at higher levels. And its not an uninhabited wilderness, its renaissance Europe with magic. In generic B/X land, you're a big deal at level 5 and can be a regional power, possibly retiring by Lv10. In Faerûn, level 5 makes you a potential smalltime inner city gang leader. By the time you start amassing real political power, you're at level 15+, and at 25+ you can hold a city state against other city states. A developed high magic world vs an undeveloped, relatively low magic world. But for instance, Power of Faerûn is full of subsystems and essays about running campaigns where the PCs get actual power. Whether that's through nations, guilds, religions, or business.Forgotten Realms is a world where you can't get much political power if you stick to low level play. But there's nothing stopping you from building level 15+ characters and playing a more political / epic game, or starting at 12 and levelling into being high enough level to compete. Or playing a really really long campaign.I think that's probably where the distinction came in. Ed's Forgotten Realms home game went on for so long that his players became entrenched players and the world history built up over time, and now the power curve is higher.
>>92612786Not him but there are also FR areas specifically dedicated to the classic domain phase of the game, for example the Thar moors in the Moonsea. You can easily make the pc there raise in power using the old named (9th+ level circa) character standing.
>>92608346>Alls because I took a commission from some military big shot....Which big shot?
>>92612896The Blackstaff, Mr. Harper. (Always blame Khelben. They already hate him and he's constantly involved in dozens of centuries-spanning schemes.)>>92612891True, there are smaller ponds with smaller fish. But, eventually you're likely to end up in he bigger pond interacting with those bigger fish.I don't think either style is *wrong*, but playing in a more populated faction dominated world is just going to be different than playing in a low population wilderness world. Much more focus on NPC interactions rather than on looting dungeons and building a backwater fief.Just depends what you want to play.
>>92612786Wait what? I don't remember most of FR's city states being ran by level 20 demigods.
I’m playing BG3. Can someone explain how Bane could even have a sizeable following? I can understand why a Nobleman would worship him, but why would Joe Commoner worship the God of Tyranny?
>>92615699Bane's Dogma says bane is Duke #1, everyone else is trash.If you can overpower them, you should overpower them and teach them that they're beneath you and you serve no other than Bane.Bane appeals to everyone because everyone always thinks that they're the smartest/toughest/bestest leader and that if they had their moment in the spotlight they'd best the incredible leader everyone wants.There was even a mention in an AD&D book about slavers following Bane because they believe if they can earn his blessing they'll gain the strength to break free of their bonds, because Bane is their only master, not the asshole with the whip.
>>92615771slavers -> slavesI spent all day doing heavy labor and my brain is fried.
>>92615699Bane has a following because his whole thing is pretty orderly. People are fed, laws are obeyed and everybody has a place in the system. His church is also a meritocracy, where the "best" can rise over everyone else.
I love Harper bashing threads. Fuck these cunts, and fuck Greenwood for being a spook loving cunt.
Are the Moonstars still around post 3E?
>>92612786>But for instance, Power of Faerûn is full of subsystems and essays about running campaigns where the PCs get actual power. Whether that's through nations, guilds, religions, or business.In fairness that same book also says "nuh-uh you can't no nobility for you" when it comes to gaining status in places like Waterdeep or Cormyr.
I'm a BG3 zoomie and I fucking love Harpers. Secret Agent Druids are such a cool concept, Jaheira having animal spies blew my mind. I normally hate Druids because they just have two flavors, preachy hippy and Poison Ivy from Batman.
>>92615491Not all of them, but a bunch run bigger city states or kingdoms or similar.
>>92616382The problem with harpers isn't the *idea* of secret agents (the Zhentarim and Moontars and Red Wizards also have secret agents), It's the specific "we're the good guys, honest" propaganda while enforcing a status quo that's shit for a lot of people, trying to revert the world back to a ~1000 year old failed multicultural utopia that wasn't nearly as great as they think it was - apparently to the point that they're covering up for elfnazis so thy can keep pursuing their utopian delusion. "Reject modernity, embrace tradition", Seattle saboteurs edition.
>>92616382>>92617062Doesnt the Emerald Enclave also have *specifically* druid aligned secret agents? I thought I remembered some secret Enclave members in Scions of Arrabar.
>Harper agent>Plays the lute
>>92608522>”bro let’s just go back to savagery”Kill yourself
>>92617192That’s because he’s the true face of the harpers; Luters. Retards who go about their merry way, being amateur spooks who shaft anyone who makes any move away from the one exact hypothetical ideal they all share, built upon several centuries of lies, all while claiming they’re on the right side of history. Unfortunately the movie wasn’t smart enough to run with this
>>92615699To be enslaved is the deepest yearning of the human/mortal heart. It brings ultimate comfort, because slaves never have to make difficult choices.
>>92608522Slavery isn't abolished. There are more slaves today than ever before in history -- probably about 50 million of them.
>>92617086Yes.To Enclave is also responsible for loads of ecoterrorism and atrocities if you read the Vilhon Reach from AD&D it details shit like them wiping entire towns off of the map.But they don't pretend to be the good guy.Also their leader at the time was a bronzed skilled muscled milf that everyone assumed had to be an amazon because of her proportions.She wasn't but she did open up alliances with the amazons.
The funny thing about everyone screeching that the Harpers are covering up a massive hidden elven terror network is that for one thing, they spend a shitload of effort taking out Eldrath Veluuthra cells and thwarting their various plans, and for another, according to 3.5, where that same blurb came from, there's only about 300 members of the EV to begin with. That's fewer members than the Fruit of Islam, the Michigan Militia, the Oath Keepers, or the Three Percenters. That's less than a high school's worth of the fuckers. They're barely even an organization!
>>92618662So why cover the organisation up if it’s only a marginal amount. Oh right! Because they’re cripplingly obsessed with a fairytale kingdom and even the slightest chance someone would hate an elf would bring that crumbling down! Man they’re such great heroes, prioritising their shitty ideal over people’s safety!
>>92615699His followers tend to believe in meritocracy and that it's everyone's prerogative to elevate themselves through whatever means are available to them. Power is the means and the end, and everyone may pursue it to the best of their ability. In practice the devoted followers of Bane might be anything from mobsters, slavers, mercenaries, feudal lords, technocrats, wizards, or whatever. And although they're categorically a self-interested bunch, a bad crowd, their whole thing of wanting to dominate the social hierarchies means that they often want to be the sort of bad crowd that people will easily fall in with.Basically Bane has a following because he has a very clear appeal to assholes who think they're better than other people and there are a lot of assholes around.
>>92619229I like to think of Bane's insidiousness in that if you tell people he's the god that most politicians would follow, they will tell you right on, fuck those banite bastards.If you then point out that most of these hard-line political pundits/grifters would also fall in line with him, since they're all about preaching that the other side is the existential evil that must be flattened to make room for "our" enlightened utopia, most people will still agree but some will say "nah, that's an exaggeration" or "well my guy is different".If you then point out that most people with extreme views that they refuse to consolidate or compromise with others on, would also potentially fall under his purview, and suddenly you're the bad guy for speaking the truth.
>>92618662Gotta take them out quietly if they're going to avoid resistance to their regressive fantasy utopia agenda!>>92618611Yeah, the Enclave is a lot less concerned with PR. I was just pointing out you can easily have druid secret agents without being a Harper.Arguably FR is largely a setting *about* secret agents and spies. There are so many factions waging secret wars.IIRC Greenwood has a massive unpublished Illithid conspiracy going on that he mentioned on his YouTube channel. Dunno if it ever got detailed anywhere
>>92597951>That farmer was closer to inventing blue cheese than antibiotics.METEOR SWARM ON WHOLE VILLAGE!!!!!
>>92619572>IIRC Greenwood has a massive unpublished Illithid conspiracy going on that he mentioned on his YouTube channel. Dunno if it ever got detailed anywhereDon't think it did, because it clashed with stuff that WotC wanted to do with illithids.Since his version was about Illithids growing their power bases through skullduggery and conspiracy and most illithid deaths being the result of illithids tricking adventurers into killing other illithids.
Harpers are just a faction of Teds and are therefore based.
>>92620158So the exact same conspiracy he recycles for everything else?
>>92618662>takes them so much effort to take out 300 terroristsSo they aren't just fantasy CIA, they're also an incompetent fantasy CIA?
>>92620297The CIA’s default state is incompetence though.
>>92620281I'd say he has about three different types of conspiracies.Harper conspiracies, where it's not a conspiracy, we're the good guys, just kill this guy and don't ask why.Zhent conspiracies, where it's not a conspiracy, we do everything out in the open, we're just interested in making money and putting people in our pockets for a nebulous goal.and Twisted Rune conspiracies, where you're actually working for a proxy of a proxy of a proxy of a proxy because the people involved are so ancient and paranoid that they don't take a shit without making sure they know exactly where the poop is going to be 23 years from now.From what little I heard the Illithid conspiracies were in the Twisted Rune camp, but I don't remember what their end game was.
>>92618662The EV aren't just a bunch of Joe Schmoes though. They have a number powerful wizards and rich influential nobles in their ranks.
>>92593148>>92596082So do Harpers do jackshit about the gnomes because they only allow for advancement via gnomes or is that just craziness they have no interest in bothering with?
>>92620407Actually it’s Virginia. Langley specifically. Incompetence is in Illinois. But there’s also one in California, Texas, and New York. There’s also Incompetence street in Bangor Maine.
>>92624184The gnomes in faerune tend to be the hippy type. Like the halfling version of elves. Letterally, faerune gnomes were from the fey wild just like the elves. Some of them have interesting in engineering and tinkering but they aren't really strongly driven to innovate so much as learn all existing knowledge. There are a few odd exceptions, but the devices built by those are often as much magic as technology and there for can't be easily reproduced at scale so not an issue when it comes to keeping tech stagnant.
>>92624184The gun meme that people talk about was a gnomish factory where everyone who worked there was killed, the factory was destroyed, and all records burned.>>92624264>Feywild gnomes???Gnomes are techy as fuck because they're connected to Gond, the god of machinery.They have steam engines and shit.
>>92624264Didn't they have some kind of steampunk utopia that was wiped out with the Spellplague? It was on the island, far to the southwest.
>>92624488IIRC it was Nimbral, not Lantan, that got hit by the spellplague but I'm not a specialist on 3e/4e era Realms. From what I remember, Nimbral had pegasus riders, not steampunk shit.
>>92624363>>92624488I haven't kept up with 4e and 5e. 3.5 books says their pantheon consists of Baervan Wildwanderer, Baravar Cloakshadow, Calladuran Smoothhands, Flandal Steelskin, Geardal Ironhand, Segojan Earthcaller, and their chief god Garl Glittergold. There is a mention under Gond that some community of rock gnomes worship him, but that was the exception rather than the rule. Guess when the gutted the setting in 4e and 5e they ditched the old gnome lore and made them World of Warcraft gnomes.
>>92624184Nobody especially cares about gnomes. They're the most forgotten people of the Forgotten Realms.
>>92624774I don't care about much about gnomes, half-orcs, dwarves, or halflings. That said, I would rank them from most to least interesting, as Gnome, Dwarf, Halfling, Half-Orc.
>>92596989If they oppose it doesn't mean they are successful at it.
>>92618221Remember when Hollywood had Viola Davis play a "Woman King" fighting le ebil colonizers while completely leaving out that one policy she was fighting against was the abolishment of slavery?
>>92624885*one policy the real person had fought against
>>92615699Not Joe Commoner but top 10% of hierarchic system and those who want to get there which is plenty.
>>92606674I played a campaign years ago in Faerun as part of an evil party where we did manage to fuck up the harpers'n'frends, and managed to bring about an age of darkness under the glory of Shar. Party all ended up forming a brand new pantheon under Shar, and most of the campaign was gathering divine sparks from a variety of sources so we actually had god-like powers by the end. The good guys could not stand against our bullshittery. It felt pretty good to stomp all over the Harpers and the other good guys.
>>92624813I think Faerunian dwarves (at least prior to 3e) had some interesting lore, mostly because of the split between the traditionalist dwarves and the progressive dwarves causing a real fucking schism in their northwestern societies, but a combination of 3e introducing the Thunder Blessing (and then doing nothing of value with it) and Salvatore relying on dwarf memes, led to that all coming crashing down by the end of 3.5e.Gnomes and Halflings are both kind of shit, with the only thing I'm curious about is that Esmeltaran was said to have a high halfling population.Esmeltaran was basically the city every rich guy in Amn had a vacation house in and was known for its riches and hedonism.So were Amnian halflings basically the jewish mafia and had access to that kind of money, or was there a gross implication here?Half-Orcs I think are about as boring as Half-Elves, and would much prefer seeing more stories that go into the various different kinds of orc in Faerun, whether it be the savages of the Northwest, the farmer orcs of the Moonsea area, the northeast orcs who helped humanity beat the mongol horde because TSR liked really dumb events, and then got shafted for it because the promised farm land and livestock only happened for a few of them and the rest were told to fuck off since no one wanted to trust orcs in their communities, the mountain orcs of the Vilhon Reach, who on the west side of the mountains are seen as savages who only want to fuck and kill, while on the east side of the mountains are fantastic trade partners, or the eugenics orcs of Thay.
>>92624488>>92624634Lantan wasn't a steampunk utopia, but it was a higher tech level than the rest of Faerun with guns, machines, and steam engines that were being prototyped for various ideas including the horseless carriage and others (as detailed in Aurora's Whole Realms Catalogue).In 1e it was Humans, in 2e it got retconned to gnomes because TSR wanted Greyhawk Tinker Gnomes in other settings.The Demihumans of the Realms book, which introduced a lot of Kits for demihumans not covered under Warriors & Priests or Rogues & Wizards, introduced the Lantanese Artificer, which was a Fighter Gnome who wasn't as skilled as a regular fighter but in exchange got bonuses to being Gun + Shield and bonus skills in relation to tinkering.Also Gond appeared as a Gnome during the Time of Troubles, which given every god was forced into their mortal form this raised questions.In Demihuman Deities, one of the three big FR deity books that came out towards the end of 2e, they ported over the Greyhawk gnome pantheon into Faerun proper, except Nebelun the Meddler, who was implied to secretly be Gond who split from the rest of the gnome pantheon to become a more widely worshiped god.3.5e then shifted away from this because 3.5e also reduced the tech level of the setting (and introduced the story about the gun factory being destroyed), for some unknowable reason. In 2e the printing press, was seeing widespread use in Waterdeep and being reproduced in other places and completely changing the landscape because it used to be that magocracies had high literacy rates which were defined as being around 40%, and now with the printing press even societies without proper schoolings were reaching 50+% literacy. In 3e it was only recently invented despite being 10 years after 2e.But to get back to the gnome topic as >>92624774 poked fun at, the gnomes of faerun are known as "the forgotten folk" because no one gives a shit about them.
>>92625073>TSR wanted Greyhawk Tinker GnomesDragonlance, not Greyhawk.
>>92624184Also of note alongside the other replies is that the Harpers don;t care about specialized tech which isn't directly used for harm.A big complex contraption made to pump water, that once set up cannot be moved and is built to purpose in that environment, gets a pass unless its used to like drain the local watershed.
Aside from the map shrink, is there a list somewhere of the 3e retcons to Forgotten Realms? They stopped talking about guns and printing presses. What else?
>>92620407I don't see how they can be incompetent at the same time as they secretly rule the entire world like so many people claim.Same applies to the Harpers.
This thread is motivating me to add "enemies of weapons of mass destruction" to my "elves have invented everything" list. Optimally, technology itself is associated with 'the elf'.
Elves took out Jhaamdath. I will never forget or forgive them.
I'd say the perfect representation of the Harpers is in Baldurs Gate 2:>Fuckheads casually murder one of your previous maybe-friends, then have the hubris to demand you stand judgement before them for the personal advancement of their tosser of a leader>When you tell them to tuck it between their legs and fuck themselves in the ass they take that as evidence perfect that you're a wrongun because clearly a sleight against one of them is a sleight against all of them, only insiders get to think Harpers are shitheads>When you fight your way out they decide to be reasonable about it by going after those travelling with you, firmly ignoring any and all evidence of the situation at hand they opt to send assassins to try and do you all in, only sending a warning because one of those travelling with you is in with the in-crowd (And because she refuses to stand for this injustice they kick her out, because 'If you're not with us, you're against us, zero tolerance' is the position of a reasonable bunch of people)>After several murder attempts (All of them ending in dead Harpers) they force your Harper companion to yield to them on threat of her own personal assassins being sent after her for not having murdered you herself>So you have to go in and stab them all to death since they've taken her hostage and refuse to listen to her>Ignore her reasoning>Ignore you entirely, not even involved in the discussion>Ignore their motherfucking own ancestral spirits who bailed on the cockwrangler that tried to dunk on you and his entire operation for no longer acting in the interests of the Harpers>In the end Elminster himself has to pop up and 'tard wrangle them back into line because at the rate you're going you're going to depopulate the entire Swordcoast of its village idiot industry because they refuse to stop escalating at every possible opportunity.Fuck the Harpers, all my homies hate Harpers (Except Gorion, he was an OG)
>>92633257Oh and of course>No apologies, no admission of wrong doing, never accept any responsibility for the deaths of their comrades who died in the process of attempting to assassinate you because clearly you're a bastard for fighting back when the Harpers deem your death to be justified>Even Elminster doesn't rush in with 'My god, I'm so sorry about this, I will personally summon a 7 cocked futa Marilith to engage in the roughest of intercourse with the condemned souls of everyone involved in this travesty that's been done to you. Internal Investigations are all over how this could've happened in the first place. Jesus Fuck, how did we let that rube lead an entire chapter?!', instead the conversation is him going to Jahira 'Well I guess if you think you did the right thing then it's fine, no more Glowies will be bothering you from now on, you're off the hook this time :^)' without even addressing you, the non-Harper pleb they were trying to murder once - Important enough for him to turn up for personally, but not important enough to hear an admission of a mistake, am I right?>Zero attempts at self-reflection or asking 'Why is this person with Reputation 20 refusing to back down, maybe there's more to it', just 'Thy crime? Questioning us. Thy sentence? Death.'Harpers really do play out like a parody of themselves whenever they appear on screen.
>>92633354All sounds pretty in line with their books.Harpers cause as much, if not more, trouble than they solve.
>Selune, the moonmaiden, mightiest goddess in Faerun, I know you will save us from the evil Shar…ACK
>be an American>get isekai'd to the Forgotten Realms>become an Artificer>own a musket for home defense, since that's what the founding fathers intended>four Harpers break into your house. >"What the devil?" >grab your powdered wig and Kentucky rifle. >blow a golf ball sized hole through the first Harper, he's dead on the spot. >draw your pistol on the second man, miss him entirely because it's smoothbore and nail the neighbors dog>have to resort to the cannon mounted at the top of the stairs loaded with grape shot>"Tally ho lads" >the grape shot shreds two men in the blast>fix bayonet and charge the last terrified rapscallion>he bleeds out waiting on the town guards to arrive since triangular bayonet wounds are impossible to stitch up>just as the founding fathers intended
>>92633354>>92634221The most hilarious Harper book for me was the one about the desert. When the Zhentarim, as a trading company, are attempting to establish a caravan route across the desert to facilitate trade, movement of people, and general benefit to literally fucking everybody. Sure they'll take a cut to establish it, but they're putting the effort in and they are genuinely and unironically being straightforward.The Harpers decide this cannot be allowed and send agents in to train the native Bedine (totally not Bedouin) tribes in guerrilla warfare to destroy the Zhentarim and fucking up the nations backing them.You could not lift this plot more from real life if you fucking TRIED.>>92633354Remember when the horde of not!Mongols was going to rampage across the continent? When they actually managed to overrun THAY and forced the Thayans to fight a standstill and allow them to go further west? Remember when a band of nations joined forces like the fantasy UN/WW2 Allies to fight them off? Including Zhentarim mercenaries? What were Elminster and the Harpers doing?Nothing. In fact, when asked for his help keeping the continent from getting trampled under the hooves of not!Genghis Khan, his response was "fuck off I'm busy". And it turned out he was not, he just didn't like Zhentarim.
>>92638949The Zhents in the desert one still confuses me.Like I remember reading that the Zhents were going to abuse the bedine people, but I don't really remember that.Also I wouldn't care if they did.But that entire region is a mess given that what was supposed to be an ice cold desert full of weird magic shit had to get toned down and turned into the not-sahara because TSR is stupid.
>>92633354>I will personally summon a 7 cocked futa Marilith to engage in the roughest of intercourseI was going to ask how does he know that spell but then I realized it is Elminster we are speaking about.
>>92639032I like the idea of someone asking Greenwood this and him spinning a yarn about the time Elminster won a favor from a 7 cocked futa Marilith
>>92638949>When they actually managed to overrun THAY and forced the Thayans to fight a standstillTuigan hands typed this post. In the end of Dragonwall, Yamun realises fully that Szass IS able to back up his big words with action and chooses the path of least resistance. Besides, before that the Thayvians obliterated Chanar's force and beat a second force into an actual rout with heavy casualties.Oddly enough, you're probably the only person I remember seeing here who even remembers the Empires books, which are my favourites out of any xD&D books out there. Too few books actually show what a game changer a large number of wizards would be on an otherwise medieval battlefield, for instance.(deleted the first reply to eliminate a spoiler if someone wants to read the books blind)
