Why it failed?
I killed it
pandering exclusively to grogs just isn't economically sustainable nowadays
>>92614838it didn't die you trunk
>>92614838Actual old-school players aren't buying new books or recruiting many new players, because they've already got what their groups and books. They're just OS, because there's no need for a revival or renaissance or whichever other R you're plugging in.People with an actual understanding of """the OSR mindset""" realize they don't need to buy a shiny new game to apply the majority of the principles of OSR.The remainder is either uninterested in OSR principles or lead by the nose by grifters, neither of which really grows an OSR movement.
>>92615435This. I've always thought it was ridiculous. Know what my "OSR" is? Buying old D&D modules and magazines off ebay. The fuck would I want a new RPG to "capture the feeling" of an old one? If we wanna play the old one we know and love, guess what we do?
>>92615219Whats wrong chuddie? Upset that no one cares about your shitty genre of make believe that can barely be defined other than 'old good new bad'
>>92614838Grognards killed it.
>>92615219I just add furries to my OSR games. It's fun! You should try it
>>92615435>>92615456You gakekept the wrong part. Instead of embracing the original mission statement of making classic D&D easier for new people to get into, you created more and more subgenres so you can feel better about how your half-finished unplayable OD&D clone is better than that other guy's.
Did it? I know more people into B/X clones now than 5 years ago. Especially compared to 5 years ago.On the mainstream, yeah sure the newest edition of DnD is always going to be the most popular, but that's not the best metric of success. It's better to look at influence, and in that regard, OSR has suceeded. Two types of systems are on the rise, 4E inspired systems like Lancer, and more simplistic systems like OSR as a whole. I imagine whichever causes the paradigm shift in /tg/ culture will cause the other to rise as a sort of counterculture. Or perhaps we might see a fusion of the two come out of it.The future is soon old man, don't be a grog. Wash yourself, become the jolly old man, and be glad you're not a GURPs fan. Now they are on the way out.
>>92615753>I know more people into B/X clones now than 5 years ago. Especially compared to 5 years ago.Yes, 3 people today compared to that one guy five years ago. Big improvement. Huge.
>>92616125I didn't say it was huge, but for a small town, that isn't too bad. A coworker of mine is currently playing in a group that has 17 players, and it's still running 2E. And I've met some people just yesterday looking to play OSR.A friendly smile and a confident handshake can get you anywhere anon, why not use it to run whatever system you like, and leave macro-statistics to corporate suits?
>>92614838People stopped giving it credit for their rewrites of it.
>>92614838Total incoherence in terms of design goals and intention, combined with the loudest, most powerful voices in the community being unironically fucking insane.
I started games because of it which are still running, and awesome modules came out and are still coming out. Yes, a lot of garbage was produced. That happens with everything. A lot of gems were too, and still are.
>>92614838It hasn't. There's been enough material made and game groups formed to last a lifetime. Hopefully it becomes less marketable and the tourists fuck off though. Waiting for another of the nusr community darlings to get canceled, should be enough to push it under.
>>92615611>reading comprehension
>>92617971You should learn some, yes.
>>92614838For me, someone not particularly invested in the notion of being old school, it's the never ending ourity spiral that leads to shit like claiming the brown books aren't sufficiently old school.
>>92618060Dear anon-sama, please explain how two posts saying>OD&D clones are dumb, why not just play OD&Dand>you don't need a special "OSR" game to play old schoolyield the conclusion of:>these people are rabid cultists of some grifter's "OSR GAME" and know what an OSR subgenre is
B/X is fun.People have been playing some form of this game for almost half a century. The game hasn't changed, it's just become more polished.Advanced is a different game. 3.5 is a different game. Pathfinder and 4.0 are different games, 5e is a different game.Different dose'nt mean better. New dose'nt mean better. There aren't various editions of chess, checkers, or poker.The game is either fun or it's not.People still like B/X. It's not going anywhere. I wouldn't call a game that's outlasted every other edition a failure.
>>92618331Finally someone with common sense in the thread.
>>92617217I miss seeing Zak sperg out.
>>92618331>There aren't various editions of chess, checkers, or poker.Are you retarded?
>>92618457You can now pay him regular patron bucks to see him sperg out. Maybe even at you!
>>92615435Honestly you can only make so many B/X remixes. It was doomed to wane but it was so active in the firat place because of the coff and the massive influx of people from mainstream attention on D&D due to CR etc. I think it's simply back to where it's always beenbut fuck I miss the coff sometimes, I was playing 4-5 times a week, beats me if I can find ONE game now
>>92614838/tg/ is obsessed with arguing about how to play make believe correctly. This is just an special education kindergarten for autistic weirdos.
What makes you think it failed?
For the same reason Black Metal failed, it was something unique and experimental, than second wave codified too many ridged rules and acted holier than thou, made it cringe as fuck, than third wave made it a commercial cesspool built on venerating the cringe best forgotten second wave. It was never meant to be taken seriously, have longevity or ever leave the fringe but too many hanger ons and speculators wanted to capitalize so it died.
>>92618124I'm all about the pre-school gaming, but saying 3LBB aren't old enough IS retarded. And what if they aren't? OSR is about playing in the post 3LBB frame of mind anyway. If anything, the 3LBB/Chainmail/Outdoor Survival are too old school for OSR. 3LBB lets you play as a fucking dragon if you want to. It's written in the first pages of the first book. The idea of playing as a dragon makes most OSR players seethe. OSR is about how the game was played by the people back then, not the creators.
>>92614838Incest
>>92617359Got any recs for good modules? I wanted to try ACKS or something and good crawls to harvest for ideas sounds like what I need.
I wouldn't say it's dead by any means, but for me it's in the same place as historicals where people who actually play the games and inhabit the creative spaces are generally nice and interesting people and the evangelists on /tg/ are some of the most insufferable spergs you've ever met.
Like a lot of the hobby it's been ruined by people wanting to make a buck out of it instead of creating for themselves and their players.You can pinpoint the time when that happened pretty easily if you lived through it. One day we were creating and sharing in good faith, the next 2 weeks everyone and their sister's boyfriend began trying to sell their 'new' OSR game on every platform/forum/blog/subreddit.Same thing happened to FKR. And to solo.And with making da moneh came the need to generalize and expand what OSR is to have more customers.
>>92614838Because when people actually started playing OSR games they discovered that the rules sucked.
>>92616176>2ENot OSR but okay.
“The scene” is dead. No little creative burst lasts forever, and the best creators go off in orthagonal directions.
>>92621581This is why OSR is dead.
Honestly they tore themselves to bits.
>>92614838It's doing fine.>>92615401Ironically, the old way of releasing content for games was the best way from an economic and commercial standpoint.Way back when, the overwhelming majority of supplements were soft bound adventures with three hole punched sides, a few pages long, and could be run with zero prep. Monsters came in loose leaf three hole punched stacks that you tossed into your own ever growing binder of baddies, the same with spells, trinkets, etc.The result was a steady supply of content across the board, cheap to make, cheap to buy, and easy to swing by a shop to pick up the new stuff that dropped that month.
>>92622765Also cheap magazines with mini modules and stat blocks that were often written by people who actually worked on the game, or at least were involved with other games. That can sort of be replicated by drive-thru rpg, but there's a deluge of it with negative editorial oversight, so it's not as useful.
>>92615435/thread
Only problem I have is that the shilling is super hardcore. Everyone's trying to sell you shit. Same reason why Shadowdark vibes were off.
>>92615600How? I been wanting to do it
>>92622726Because it didn't expand its scope to include things that ain't it? Genius take.
>>92623320Because you spent all your time and effort trying to exclude things and acting smug about it.
>>92623540That doesn't make any sense. Why would a community have to include things they detest, what would the point of having that community be in the first place?
>>92623603I dunno, but the point of your community was to exclude things you didn't like rather than include the ones you liked, and so you fractured under the weight of your own exclusions.
>>92615435Yep. A bit of A&B&C for me, no D.I have a handful of OSR products I crib ideas from.I mostly don't need to buy more shit unless its a convenience product, or a fun setting book. The games I have work fine.I'm not terribly interested in actual B/X or AD&D mechanically though, and even less interested in rules lite knockoffs, and the OSR stuff I do want, is specifically stuff I'll be able to adapt to RM4 / d&d 3.0+3.5 / GURPS. It's a different feel to hex/dungeon crawling with all the added crunch (and detailed skill systems).Not terribly interested in grifters though. If you can show me new mechanics or similar that I will find actually useful, great. If its an art book with a subset of the BX stats shoved in, or a reprint of shit that's already out there, pass.
>>92623719Pretty sure the people who want to just play BX and ACKS and Flame Princess dungeon and hex crawls, are still just doing that, just like I'm still doing 3.5 and GURPS, and every few years we do another RM4 campaign."You need to change to become 5e because 5e is new and trendy" is a losing argument. If we liked the new shit, we would be buying and playing it. This new shit is not what we enjoy, so we're going for stuff we like better, even if it's older.
>>92623719>the point of your community was to exclude things you didn't like rather than include the ones you likedIt's the same thing, Anon. The OSR was born in opposition to the effect of the Hickmann manifesto on D&D, from 2e onwards. Disliking the Hickmann manifesto and preferring the (early) Gygaxian style is exactly the same thing.>and so you fractured under the weight of your own exclusionsYou're dreaming things, there is no "fracture". It's a really rather well-defined divide in the history of D&D and the way of playing it. Now granted:1) There are some people who like 2e and are hurt because they think the OSR label is kewl and they feel excluded that the /osrg/ guys dislike they're favourite edition, but it's only a weight for people who are outside of the OSR.2) There are some people who appropriated the "OSR" label to promote their microlite / NuSR RPGs that have little if anything to do with OSR.All the /osrg/ community has done is sticking to their original definition of what OSR meant, and keep playing the way they like. No fracture, just outsiders trying to infiltrate.
>>92623852>just like I'm still doing 3.5 and GURPSYep, it's exactly the same thing. The OSR community is pretty unique in that there's people trying to appropriate the label from the outside for the reasons I mentioned above. In 3.5e and GURPS generals I haven't observed anywhere near the volume of bad faith posters that we get on /osrg/, trying to claim that whatever *they* like must be considered OSR as well.
>>92623877>they're favourite editionFuck me.
>>92623852The problem is you also don't like the old shit. I've watched you fucks brand a scarlet F (for FOE) on the foreheads of enough people who want to talk about the wrong OSR game, or mention something they don't like about whatever the current darling is. You purity spiral like a cult. It's not a mystery why OSR hasn't maintained its momentum.
>>92624039>purity spiralYou are confused, the definition of "OSR" hasn't changed meaningfully in over a decade now.
>>92624156That's kind of proving my point, since a lot of other people supposedly in the OSR space don't agree with you. Probably not even the rest of the guys in this thread if you questioned them about it. And instead of just focusing on your thing, you collectively fight over everyone else's things because they're wrong and you're too autistic to not care. You've pushed too many people away.
>>92624156NTA, but usually every time I pop into /osrg/ or see a similar sort of thread like this one multiple OSR people are getting into protracted edition wars style fights over specific versions of early D&D, and I don't mean 2e like that other anon. Then you have bitching about newer OSR games being thrown into that mix which can devour whole threads.
>>92624245>>92624209>a lot of other people supposedly in the OSR space don't agree with youSure, but it's the other way around. It's not a purity spiral, it's people from the outside trying to appropriate a space.
>>92614838It didn't. There's just no room for people to make a quick buck on another BX shitbrew.
>>92624399Don't worry, eventually you'll get flushed too if the entire community doesn't collapse first. It's hard to see you're in the spiral until it's too late.
>>92615456Yes, but in 2003ish when the OSR started, old books were OOP and had no legitimate digital release - unlike today.
>>92624547There is no spiral. The definition of OSR has always been the same since its inception.
>>92624574My guy, you even mentioning games made this millenia makes you the outsider of tomorrow, if not the outsider of today. You are not pure enough.
>>92624632An OSR game is a game that maintains compatibility with TSR D&D such that no more conversion is necessary than it would to run a Basic module in AD&D or vice versa.There's wiggle room on how much conversion that is, but it's been consistent since before OSR was coined.
>>92624632You're not very good at this.
>>92624760It's funny how they always go "purity spiral this, purity spiral that", and yet they can never mention ONE game that got "purity spiralled" out of the OSR.
>>926247932e.Now, of course you're going to say that it was never OSR, and that's because you're blind to the spiral tightening. It was OSR, and now it's not and anyone who mentions it is an undesirable. You can't even fully agree on if 1e AD&D should count.
>>92624793A convenient list from the previous /osrg/>shadowdark, into the odd, cairn, mothership, mork borgThe only counter argument to any of these being objected to was that someone thought Into the Odd was a good game, but still not OSR. Lots of people say these are OSR.
>>92625226You can't run B2 in Mship without massive conversion; ergo, it's not OSRProbably the best horror game I've played, since CoC. Great game, OSR-influenced, not OSR.
>>92625226Honestly I think the real issue is that people never could agree on what "old school" meant. In common usage it usually means "in an old fashioned style", but to different people in the OSR context it seems to mean, variously:1. Games, new or old, that are played in the spirit of how the first rpg designers intended the games be played2. Games, new or old, that are played in the style common to people who picked up the red box (or whatever) as children and tried to play what they thought the game was supposed to be.3. Actually old games, NOT new ones, played in the designer intent style4. Actually old games, not new ones, played in the received style of child-with-poorly explained rulebook.Given that David Wesley is still alive and perfectly happy to talk RPGs and Gygax wrote a book about role playing that basically describes the opposite of the "shut up and roll dice or go to your improv club" stance you see sometimes see floating around as the "true" interpretation of old school, it's pretty clear that a lot of people were not playing the games that the first wave of rpg designers thought they wrote. You could take statements made by the first rpg designers and write them out as a manifesto and at least some of the OSR community would call it faggy nuSR shit. I think the real issue is that multiple groups of people with wildly different conceptions of what old school meant tried to make a community out of a catchy name.
>>92625482And therein lies the problem. Some people's idea of a "massive conversion" is changing how characters are made or choosing to add a bespoke element when the game instructs you to roll on a table.
>>92614838good ol' tribalismvague nebulous definition of what is and isn't OSRco-opted by grifters, failed novelists, and political extremistsits just a buzzword slapped onto a kickstarter project(also 5e compatible so it can actually get sales) to sell their house rules, micro fiction, or agenda.the people that really just want to play older games will just play older games. Rulescyclopedia is POD nowadays isn't it?
>>926249882e was, indeed, never considered to be OSR. You just don't know anything about the history of the "movement" and its opposition to the Hickmann Manifesto if you claim it ever was.>You can't even fully agree on if 1e AD&D should count.That's beyond retarded.>>92625226>shadowdark, into the odd, cairn, mothership, mork borgThose, also, never had anything to do with OSR. What happened is that the authors tried to appropriate the "OSR" label to promote their own shitbrew. It's not like they were accepted as OSR and then rejected, they were never accepted as OSR from the get go.>>92625593>the real issue is that people never could agree on what "old school" meantCommon source of confusion. OSR is not "old school", it's an acronym that was invented to hint at TSR back when you could get your ass sued for it. There's lots of old school games that aren't OSR. It's the renaissance of one particular old school game, D&D before the Hickmann revolution.Now granted, it's arguably a bad acronym because people look at the words "old school" and infer that whatever is old school to *them* must be OSR. I've read people arguing that 3e must be OSR on those grounds, and most 2efags whining about 2e not being accepted as OSR are using pretty much the same logic.
>>92625928See what I mean? Completely blind.
>>92624245/osrg/ is weird in that they'll fight tooth and nail over systems they agree are largely interchangeable. >>92624399Under a strict definition anything that isn't pre-2e D&D could count as FOEGYG. Which is kind of a problem the OSR community has grappled with since the start; why play a game like B/X when you can just play B/X? It also ignores that playstyle as intended and playstyle as practiced are different which messed with any arguments about how to actually run a game, both mechanically and content-wise.
>>92625650Stats, skills, panic, and monsters work differently in Mothership. It's not a simple port like AD&D to BECMI. It's its own beast.
>>92625928>It's arguably a bad acronymYeah, that was what I was getting at. I'm not invested in what is and isn't "old school", I'll run my games how I like them, but it seems pretty clear to me that at least some of the reason for the weird fractiousness that crops up in the OSR community sometimes is just that it is poorly named.>d&d before the Hickman revolutionI accept that that is your interpretation, again I don't really have a dog in the race because I don't care if I am or am not old school, but that clearly isn't a universally accepted definition. I've had people tell me with a straight fucking face that LBB isn't old school because only pre 1974 blackmoor counts. I'm not even sure there is an actual book for that in existence and you don't just have to fucking infer what it was like.
>>92625979>OSR community has grappled with since the startRetroclones exist because the OGL and SRD served as a backdoor to publish out of print editions so people could access TSR D&D. The only tension there is exists because several years later, WotC released most of their TSR back catalog on DTRPG and even reprinted things like the 1e core books.
>>92625960Repeating something doesn't make it true, Anon. 2e and microlite NuSR games were never accepted as OSR. Get over it, you'll feel better.>>92626042>that clearly isn't a universally accepted definition.Sure, take plebbit for example: Over there people *broadened* the definition of OSR with respect to the original one to include pretty much anything anyone likes because "gatekeeping bad" and, more importantly, because the mods over there are friends with some of the NuSR authors. They consider even DCC to be OSR when the author himself explicitly stated that it isn't. That's how broad it got. So what's happened on plebbit is the exact opposite of the purity spiral that butthurt 2efags allege on here: It's progressive dilution of the term. And again, that's happened only in some spaces. E.g. take this general from 2019:>>65049170The definition is still the same as the current one in /osrg/, "D&D as played in the first decade". Where's the purity spiral?
>>92626066True, but there's some residual value to some retroclones even after the old editions have become widely available. For example, OSE is an outstanding reference manual for B/X.
>>92625226Mork Borg is based around the idea of OSR at a specific point of its existence. Namely, it bases itself off the idea that OSR means a high lethality, rules light game with a gonzo weird fantasy setting inspired by metal music.
>>92614838Bad optics.You had racist chuds being the face of OSR ruining things for people who just wanted evil orcs and unsexualized goblins.
>>92626285That's like creating a sport off the idea that Chess involves hunting pigeons, calling that sport Chess, and then complaining about a "purity spiral" when people say that Chess doesn't involve guns or pigeons.
More desperate tranny projection>In 4 chanI mean are you surprised at this point. How's those 5th edition sale going? Cr? Surely gay disabled black women of mixed races are both providing a limitless well of talent as well as insatiable audience?
>>92626336This is a feature not a bug.
>>92626285Mork Porg is based on the wet farts of lotfp's cancelation and rushing in to fill the void with a sanitized current year hot topic gaem.
>>92626253>Repeating something doesn't make it true, AnonThe irony is palpable. Almost as palpable as your textbook spiral denial. We didn't move in, they moved out! They have always been impure! I am pure! I know what has always been impure! This is actual real life cultist behavior. Luckily the worst they can do to you is call you a FOE when you slip up or fail to adapt to the new purity.
>>92626339>>92626456The point I was making is that Mork Borg is based entirely on OSR products, not the principles of OSR. It's a derived derivative.>>92626427That whole SWORD DREAM shit died out because pretty much everyone creating and playing OSR weren't racist, sexist neo-nazis.
>>92626587>They have always been impure!A link was provided showing that the /osrg/ definition hasn't changed in years. What do you have to back up your claims?NuSR games haven't "always been impure", they just didn't exist when OSR started.As for 2e, again, the criticism of the Hickmann manifesto co-arose with the OSR. They are essentially the same thing.
>>92626723The /osrg/ definition isn't used as an authoritative source. Games that objectively play like Greyhawk get labeled as FOE GYG bait. People who argue in favor of things Gygax himself did have been called out as wrong and bad. /osrg/ is a cesspit. It's also not the entirety of osr.And that combative energy where policing other people is the most important thing is why it's a dying genre, which is the entire point of this conversation.
>>92626840>Games that objectively play like Greyhawk get labeled as FOE GYG bait.Are these games in the room with us?>People who argue in favor of things Gygax himself did have been called out as wrong and bad. Link or it didn't happen.
>>92626840>The /osrg/ definition isn't used as an authoritative source.It's certainly a source on whether there has been a purity spiral when it comes to 2e inside /osrg/ itself and guess what?, there hasn't been one, so you're talking out of your ass.
>>92626907>>92626929Do you suppose this is helping your case?
>>92623917There's a couple people in /3.5g/ who tell me I'm playing 3.5 wrong because I use a lot of old 3.0 and 3pp 3.x books to run it as more of a world sim and less of a grid skirmish game centred on late 3.5e books. But they can't say my approach is coming from outside, because it's older than the grid-combat build autism playstyle, and even most of the 3pp books I'm using came out before or the same year as 3.5. So they can get mad and say I and the game designers who made the books I like (including 3.0 Core) "miss the point of 3.5", but well, fuck 'em. Just amuses me that they get bent out of shape over playing 3e in a play style that was clearly meant to be supported.But yeah, I haven't seen anything similar for GURPS. Some people don't like GURPS homebrew/blogger content I guess? But it's still clearly GURPS, and again, its not new, people have been homebrewing for GURPS since before 4th came out in 2004.Neither game has a group showing up decades later, making something slightly compatible but wildly different at the table, and claiming they're doing the same thing as you.(That said, I quite like the 2e TSR setting books. But I don't care about whether its proper OSR, and I can see it's a totally different type of game from B/X. It's closer in playstyle to 3e than to BX).
>>92624039>you also don't like the old shit.Of course I don't. Reading the post explains the post.I cherrypick bits of OSR mechanics only for use with RM4, GURPS, and 3e sandbox gaming, none of which are OSR. They're all skill-system games with heavily fleshed out skill mechanics, while OSR games don't normally even *have* skill systems.>purity spiral>"We like no-rails high lethality sandbox dungeon crawling and hex crawling">"I made an OSR baking simulator">"that's not a thing. That's word salad">"help help, I'm being repressed!">momentumBut why would they care? They're (mostly) playing dead games, just like I am. You get together a handful of players and you're good. I'm not trying to convince the whole world to play more detailed simulationist RPGs. Why would I bother? (Unless it's a sales pitch and I want you to open your wallet and give me your money).
>>92627354>But why would they care? They're (mostly) playing dead games, just like I am. You get together a handful of players and you're good. I'm not trying to convince the whole world to play more detailed simulationist RPGs. Why would I bother? (Unless it's a sales pitch and I want you to open your wallet and give me your money).Considering that's what this whole thread is about, you tell me. Why do you care? Why do they care? Look at how fervently they defend it against the accusation of not being friendly enough to hold a wide audience.
>>92624209Old School Revival / "Play Gygaxian D&D" ≠ Old School Renaissance.Different groups of people who want different things, that diverged in he mid-2000s, and neither dropped the acronym.The Renaissance people jut decided to lath on to B/X compatible math for their homebrew, and the Revival people just brought back playing old D&D again after being unhappy with what RPGs had become after Dragonlance (and that 2e doubled down on)."The OSR Space" is two discrete groups, and has been for like 20 years. You're just butthurt that the one more popular on this website is the no-plot gygaxian games variety rather than the basic homebrew jank art book variety.Its not that hard to wrap your head around. Just requires a small amount of observation and gaming history knowledge.- high crunch skill system preferring anon that would rather get what OSR people like from a roguelike or castlevania or gauntlet videogame.
>>92627395Are they trying to claim they're not friendly enough for a wide audience, or are they responding to a fake obituary with "don't be retarded we're right here", and "I don't care if you give it the same name, Thing Y is not Thing X, move on".
>>92627532*trying to claim they are friendly and want to attract a wide audience*Editing error.
>>92627474I'm actually amazed it took this long for one of you to go "you're just jealous". I award everyone else vaguely arguing on your side 1 internet trophy for showing restraint. You don't get anything.
>>92627551>JealousI don't think you're jealous. I think you're throwing a tantrum that there's a group of people you don't belong to using an acronym in a way you don't like because you want them to become something else (or perhaps give up the acronym) and they refuse.That's not jealous, its just retarded. I didn't join this thread because of a love of gygax d&d. I don't play it and don't want to. I came here because the OP is retarded and I thought it would be entertaining to call out some retarded arguments.It has been.
>>92627598Okay.
>>92627636Anyways. Have fun whining that /osrg/ keeps telling you "they don't want your game its offtopic go make your own thread" - how dare they.I'm sure if you just complain some more they'll definitely welcome you discussing hack shadow nascar 2024 deluxe collectors edition in their thread because it gas an OSR logo on the cover.Gambatte anon. Don't give up.
>>92614838Not so much "failed" as... Well, there are three main groups in the OSR as far as I can tell.Group one are the die hard purists who stick to OD&D or BX only, MAYBE AD&D 1e. Any deviation from the set rules in the core books are seen as nigh sacrilegious and the best you could expect of them in choosing another system is maybe OSE or OSRIC.Group two are a bit more loose, allowing for more varied play styles and may also include AD&D in the mix. They are more likely to homebrew and use alternative rules or even update some things like maybe using ascending AC and the like.Group three uses OSR more as a general idea rather than any specific adherence and are probably never touching official D&D, preferring OSR inspired or adjacent systems like Astonishing Swordsmen and Sorcerers of Hyperborea or maybe Mork Borg. They prefer a "gritty" high swords and sorcery (and raygun sometimes) aesthetic and feel.So it is fairly divisive because neither group really likes the others.
>>92627693Ok.
>>92627700I drop into /osrg/ on occasion because of group 2 discussing subsystems, when I'm looking for subsystem inspiration. Group 1 and 2 seem to coexist okay, and they also seem to be mostly okay with LL and ACKS and S&W.
>>92627693Not reading this argument chain, just correcting your obnoxious translation of 頑張って / がんばってIt is gaNbatte, and it's also seNpai, ん is N not M.
>>92627828Ah. You're right. I fucked up.>>92627807>If you don't play my favorite flavour of BX derivative but still dare to point out stupid arguments you're retarded!Oh. Oh no. My life is ruined.
I like that OSR roleplay focuses on different things, interrogating the fiction and shit like that, that's cool
>>92627800Ooh, did you get banned for saying a naughty word and now have to pick one that doesn’t trip the Jannies?
>>92627700OSE and OSRIC aren't "other systems" but properly indexed and formatted restatements of B/X and AD&D 1e respectively.>>92627693I fucking hate this comic. I run a Barrowmaze game for a group of women in their 60's plus and they are way more hardcore than any of the pussies in /osrg/ "3d6 down the line in order? Sure anon!" "I failed my death saving throw and now Scott Bakula the second is dead? Time to roll up a new sucker."
>>92627957based and correct
>>92627960>OSE and OSRIC aren't "other systems" but properly indexed and formatted restatements of B/X and AD&D 1e respectively.If you aren't playing AD&D from the official books penned by Gygax himself then you, anon, are a FOEGYG.
>>92627960You 110% missed the point of tha comic series if you think your made up story about 60 year old women is comparable. Cute you have a hypebitch saying your lies are based though.
>>92627598Lol rekt
>>92627828ん is pronounced /m/ before labials, so it's phonetically more precise to transliterate it as 'm' in those situations, and some romanisation systems for Japanese do, in fact, do that.
>>92627960>I play with womenidpol anon got triggered by a comic because of poor reading comprehension
>>92627960menbros btfo
>>92626271I don't disagree. I just want to point out that during the mid-2000s when the OSR and retroclone movement started, TSR core, splats, and adventures were available without putting on your pirate hat.At the time, there was nothing to grapple with: B/X and AD&D were long out of print: so Labyrinth Lord and OSRIC made it so people could get into TSR D&D with something currently in print.>>92626723I like 2e as cleaned up AD&D1e. The first printing (guy on horse) is gorgeous. It's very compatible with B4 or N1 and so on. The tension comes from most of 2e's adventures being distinctly FOE; and the splatbook creep into a proto-3e.
>>92629216>2e is a cleaned up version of AD&D>The tension comes from most of 2e's adventures being distinctly FOE; and the splatbook creep into a proto-3e.False and false, all the problems with 2e (from the OSR perspective) are already in the core books. The near absence of exploration rules, with what they left being botched, like multiplying exploration speed in dungeons by ten and advice against wandering monsters. And the Hickmannian DMG, with XP for whatever the fuck the DM wants and advice against using XP for gold. And bowdlerisation, with removal or renaming of Demons, Devils, and assassins. And all the amazing procedures and advice in Gygax's DMG being removed. And the advice to the DM to create story arcs instead of being a neutral referee.I could go on, the point being that 2e is not just a "cleaned up" version of AD&D, it's a castrated version of it, with a radical shift in the way to play the game.It's fine if you like it, of course.
>>92629270My background was playing and reading 1e with my dad, so the 2e material had most of the same stuff, but more clearly written by Zeb Cook. I guess the exploration details never really popped out, since we were thinking in Turns. The 2e DMG is dogwater; but the 2e PHB is quite good.I don't give a shit about monster tweaks, because all the TSR editions are compatible in this respect.With respect to exploration speed, OD&D to AD&D saw several different order-of-magnitude changes to the times of things. Like rounds going from <=10sec to 1min in AD&D. If you're not going to get up in arms about that, I don't see the point of getting up in arms about the 1e-2e change.
>>92629270I never understood the XP argument. Any XP system is functionally a reward system designed to easily modifiable on the fly by the DM as a means to make players engage with the game and provide a sense of progression.
>>92629388Not sure why you call it an "argument".* XP-for-gold is at the core of how D&D worked in the first decade or so (up to and including BECMI).* XP-for-whatever-the-DM-says is at the core of D&D post-Hickmann (since AD&2e).It is, indeed, easily modifiable like all other rules in the game.
>>92629502Sorry, the argument about XP systems in general (gold for XP, combat XP, milestone XP, etc) rather than the specific use of gold for XP in OSR.
>>92629531What's the argument you don't understand? Can you be more precise?
>>92625928the only change that needs to happen to 2e is the dungeon exploration procedure just use that from 1e and use gold for xp (included as an optional rule). thats literally fucking it. it's nearly identical to 1e at that point and 100% compatible off the cuff with any old school adventure you want to run. you seem to forget that shit like proficiencies are immediately succeeded by the word O P T I O N A L.the 2e monster manuals are the best versions of them. please break down my arguments and explain how 2e can't be included.
>>92629502>* XP-for-whatever-the-DM-says is at the core of D&D post-Hickmann (since AD&2e).gold for xp is in the 2e DMG, and even if the 2e dmg is shit they still thought to include this.
Cairn 2e just made nearly a quarter of a million dollars on Kickstarter. What's the problem?
>>92629603>the only change that needs to happen to 2e is the dungeon exploration procedure just use that from 1eSo what you're saying is that you need rules from AD&D to make 2e into an OSR system. So what you're saying is that 2e is not an OSR system on its own. Thank you for conceding the point.>>92629609>gold for xp is in the 2e DMGAs an optional rule, and with the strong recommendation not to "overuse" it. So yeah, if you go against the advice in the 2e DMG and decide to "overuse" the XP-for-gold rule by scrapping all other crap rules that they suggest and instead using only that and the one for killing monsters, which provides about 10% of the total anyway, you are getting closer to the OSR way of playing. Thanks for proving my point again.
>>92629577I don't understand why people get so worked up about it.
>OSRbros fallin for lame baitvery disappointing
>>92624793I've seen people state Basic Fantasy RPG isn't OSR because gold for xp is an optional rule at the back of the book and clerics get better mileage out of the weapon tables than fighters.You can tell who actually plays and runs games in OSR circles because they'll make one or both of those minor tweaks and just play instead of theorycrafting and screeching like a howler monkey over insignificant changes.
>>92630239Gonnerman is trying to reproduce D&D as played before the year 2000 as opposed to D&D as played in its first decade, so of course there's going to be some overlap but also some discrepancies. You can make a few tweaks and then it becomes OSR, or you can pick a game that doesn't need those tweaks.
>>92630239>just play instead of theorycrafting and screeching like a howler monkey,screeched he.
>>92629136You're a sinophile, I see. Traditional Hepburn romanization is the only one designed for the Latin alphabet and English language, and I could give zero fucks about how Japanese people believe sounds should be translated into Latin characters, they support sinophilic interpretations because they don't speak or write English. Senpai. Ganbatte.
>>92630408Doesn't that imply that any houserules to OSR games mean they stop being OSR as well?
>>92630747No, it doesn't.
>The Hickmann Revolution>The Hickmann MANIFESTOYou guys know the Hickmanns were already part of TSR when 1E was released, right? How do you justify excluding their contributions?
>>92631021>How do you justify excluding their contributions?We don't like them.
>>92629627Cairn is not someone's houseruled B/X notes from 1976, so it makes grogs mad
>>92627960I thought I saw someone complaining that OSRIC changed stuff.>that comicI've had a reasonable female player in many of my groups for the past 20 years. I think its not meant to be a statement about all women, but a statement about a particular kind of entitled twat.
>>92631021They hate Dragonlance and how it changed later 1e products and playstyle away from a roguelike experience more than the typical 3.0 guy hates proto-4e encounter power build all combat slop late 3.5.
>>92629631The entire point of 2e is that it's a toolbox system. You didn't think you were supposed to use ALL of the rules it gives you, did you? Most of them are mutually exclusive and you have to choose which one to use. That's the whole point. I can see why you'd hate it when you're trying to crowbar three mutually exclusive methods of figuring out how magic users get their spells and three+ mutually exclusive non-combat skill systems (including the old standby "roll against your stat if it makes sense your character can do this thing").But that's not how the game is meant to be played, nor how it directs you to play.
>>92632014Retard here, what's up with the Dragonlance thing? I started with 3e, never read any Dragonlance books, seems like a general high fantasy setting from here with gypsy halflings.
>>92632262It seems like grognards only want soulless roguelike dungeons randomly generated as made by an AI.
>>92632465But what I don't get is the problem with Dragonlance. Did it start the trend of long campaigns with actual stories?
>>92632262It was a really railroady fantasy novel inspired adventure, basically the antithesis of the freedom to decide what to do that they liked and were used to.Some stuff has of course been figured out since allowing players to have that kind of freedom without it needing to be limited to roguelike dungeon and wilderness exploration (newer sandbox techniques), but they tend to want to stick to their more basic roguelike experiences.Mostly it seems, they viscerally hate the inherent coercion factor of railroads.
As far as I can see the only thing that's changed is a few storefronts now label completely unrelated dogshit as OSR. Everything else is pretty much the same. Still getting modules for the stuff I care about. (OD&D/AD&D/Moldvay and Hyperborea)
>>92627770I'm not saying there isn't SOME overlap, but that the groups do tend to get fairly toxic among each other. I say this as someone who has been playing OSR games for about 13 years now (sweet fuck where did the time go?).
>>92630769If a few tweaks can make something OSR then a few tweaks in the opposite direction should make something not OSR. >>92632682Premades are by definition railroads.
>>92632262>what's up with the Dragonlance thing?They're not really the first to do it but the popularity of the Dragonlance modules were really the start of all published modules shifting away from being interesting adventure locales you could present to your players into becoming plot railroads with unkillable NPCs.
Hot take: OSR failed because D&D is ultimately just not that interesting. People play [current edition] of D&D because they want to play "D&D" as the cultural meme. The people who keep playing it, it's not because D&D is good but because they figured out how to enjoy it (no one plays 5e RAW and RAI)People play 3e or 4e because it was the [current edition] of D&D and they figured out how to enjoy it.So when people want to play OSR, they want to play the good version of D&D they are always hearing about but it turns out D&D was never good, it was just what was available and people made it work. So they play OSR and it sucks, so they either leave the hobby go back to whatever edition they are most comfortable with.
>>92635235>They're not really the first to do it but the popularity of the Dragonlance modules were really the start of all published modules shifting away from being interesting adventure locales you could present to your players into becoming plot railroads with unkillable NPCs.Moldvay himself wrote a different rpg called the future king and its the most railroaded bullshit imaginable. It has the GM take control of player characters to have them make statements in the middle of describing locations. I don't think even dragonlance pulled that shit.I've come to the conclusion that the games that early d&d designers wrote, the games that people who bought the starter boxes played, and the games that the early designers actually played are all completely different.
>>92634863>premades are by definition railroads.They are not.Example: 2e's City of Splendors Boxed Set. Or its 3e counterpart book. Super detailed place, full of NPCs who want things. Lots to do. You can add a railroad to that, or not. But its entirely possible to just buy a sandbox, take notes about what's what in it and where to reference, use it to provide most of your campaign notes, and then run it as a sandbox.You want a giant premade non-railroad campaign? Ptolus.
>>92614838It didn't.Captcha: ASHY V
>>92615435This. Turns out that whole "we have to gatekeep every aspect of everything" means that new stuff dies on the vine because it simply isn't the old stuff.
>>92622765>trying to glamorize the shitty monsterous manual monthly mail-in cookbook era
>>92632262>>92632672If you read the first 5-10 pages of the first Dragonlance module you will understand the complaints right away. It's not just being story-heavy or linear, there are specific scenes with specific (premade) characters the authors wrote with certain cues about when they should happen. The premade characters are strongly recommended and the tone is like the players are picking roles to act out in a play. It's not THAT strict but it's the vibe. And the boxed text is excessive and overly literary. Shame because the dungeon in that one is pretty cool with different routes and entrances and lots of verticality.
>>92637477What? You don't like microtransactions and DMC (direct mailable content)?
>>92618331Moldvay Bx was less popular than holmes and odnd + supps back in the day, BX became the lingua franca of OSR due to a combination of historical circumstance, + being more of a "system" than a toolbox, which appealed to modern game culture.Construing BX as THE old school syatem is OSR historical revisionism.
>>92614838It's better than modern gaynd and the skirmish 3.5/pf autism, but at the end of the day it's still a d20 system with classes.
>>92626407>How's those 5th edition sale going? Cr?Great? What are you talking about you delusional retard? 5e is selling great despite being a shit rules system, engage with objective reality.
>>92627693Entirely because of this post, I'm going to make an RPG and market it as OSR despite being some newfag Fate/PbtA mix, and there's nothing you can do to stop me.
>>92642210>I'm going to make a thing that takes effortI doubt it.
>>92639011Honestly, the fact that kiddies today think the Lorraine Williams era was "good" means that we did fuck up by not bothering to pass our history down to them. There's a reason why the 3.5 kiddies think D&D was dead in the ground until they showed up.
>>926425162e was dripping in great setting ideas (some of which were even executed well). The problem is that the rules, GM advice, and published adventures were shit.
>>926247932eRulescyclopediaFucking DCC
>>92621134Honestly ACKS is fucking great but I wouldn't call it OSR. The creator doesn't either. Go check it out. It's one of the better choices.
>popular edition is garbage now>cool edition is niche nowHave you guys ever considered that maybe ttrpgs in general is the thing that is actually dying?And no, it's neither hasbro's nor grongnard's fault, is mainly because videogames are a popular thing now.
>>92642915There is no spiral considering the osrg definition of osr has stood for years and represents a block of time (the first 10 years from inception).2e falls outside of that 10-year perimeter and the parts from classic d&d in numerous ways that fundamentally alter the game. Rulescyclopedia isn't particularly treasured but has never been removed from osr canonDCC is not osr at all and was never and was in and was never in the running and was never in the running.>>92642976ACKS is osr as the fundamental core is bx.
>>92614838It was always a grift aimed at boomers nostalgic for their youth in the 80's and young people with reactionary attitudes towards modern gaming concepts like sesison zero, metacurrency, failing forward, et al. When people actually sit down and LARP that it's 1981 they realize how much it actually sucked. And even if it was good no modern person has the attention span or free time to map out a 3 level dungeon, poke every square with a 10 ft pole, etc.
>>92642384Making a PbtA game doesn't take effort, idiot.
>>92643254Some solid fan fiction you've came up with. Is this what you tell yourself at night when you stick your finger up your ass and jack off to critical role? B/X and OSR will remain long after your blue hair dye dries up, your onions supply runs out and they take away your dilator. A new generation of spiritual oldfags will rise from the ashes of modernity to carry the torch.
>>92643169>OSR Canon>Missing the point this hard
DM is an OSRhead, and after a few years of running cyberpunk and his BRP homebrew for us, he decided to finally show us OSR.I think we ran through tomb of the serpent king.To be honest it kinda sucked shit.The "you don't need explicit mechanics, just interact with the fiction directly, infinite possibilities" schtick doesn't really work when the "fiction" in question is a boring cave full of generic fantasy crap.
are there any interesting attempts to marry OSR + pbta? I keep seeing people talking about stuff like vagabonds of dyfed; it looks ok but not really the best use of either framework. any worth looking at?
As a person making a game I took a lot of good lessons from the OSR and their games, but most of the content doesn't appeal to me on a fundamental level. The problem in most cases is that the games are simply analog versions of superior computer games, not unlike playing og X-COM in current year. It has its charm and its niche, but its not compelling enough to carry an entire catalog or industry. Most of its core ideas or innovations are improved on or made more accessible by modern products. I think the OSR also cheats a lot at their own purported principles, which makes them rather hollow. It's hard to take their moralizing seriously when they do that.
>>92642915>2eWas never considered OSR because it's the Hickmann Edition.>RulescyclopediaThat and BECMI were always considered transitional. Some parts are OSR, others aren't.>DCCNot sure if stupid or bad faith. Even Joseph Goodman, the author, says it's not OSR.
>>92643379Tomb of the Serpent Kings sucks, that's your problem. Now granted, it's entirely possible you wouldn't have liked OSR even with a good adventure, it's not for everyone. (Nothing is.)
>>92642210Go ahead. You'll still be called FOE, and told to fuck off when you and your three players try to talk about it in /OSRG/
>>92643379>"you don't need explicit mechanics, just interact with the fiction directly, infinite possibilities"Are you sure you were playing an actual proper OSR system, though? Or with a DM who gets it? Because that seems really rather misleading, AD&D is very crunchy.
>>92642210>I'm going to make an RPG and market it as OSR despite being some newfag Fate/PbtA mixYou'll only be the hundredth person to do this.>>92642384As if it took effort to write 12 pages of microlite crap, half of which are consent forms, pronouns, and "Nazis can't play this game".
>>92643083Absolutely. They've been dying a slow death for 20 years. Most of what they offered is now also offered very well by videogames. I've been keeping an eye out for a hybrid product that'll give the best of both, but we dont have one yet.Menyr looked promising in its kickstarter phase, but they're a year behind schedule on release and are lacking a ton of the features they promised for launch still. Glad I didn't shell out for it. I did shell out for Talespire. Its a slightly better VTT, I suppose, for the maps, but is missing a lot of features I'd want. Tried RPG engine too. Similar but less severe problems + ugly art and slower map maker.
>>92643345Articulate the point
>>92643254Metacurrency, failing forward, et al. Are mostly garbage. Session 0 is a worthwhile idea. But I don't want to play a tabletop roguelike either. I'll keep running GURPS and just not include the meta-crap.
>>92643083ttrpg isn't dying>All the tourists and fags are leaving to chase whatever new gay thing they chaseThis is Dnd healing.
>>92643683>Nazi's can't play this gameWhat if I told you, that nazi's could in fact play those games. I'm running a game of 'Treue Ehefrauen, die viel trinken' I'll let you figure out what game I modified it from.
>>92618143And there you go, you don't even have the same reading comprehension as a borderline nonfunctional retard (me). That isn't he said in >>92615611. He said that (((You))) let the OSR fragment into different grifts and circlejerks about the best way to play.
>>92643916i whish i lived in your bubble my fren
>>92643653>Go ahead. You'll still be called FOE, and told to fuck off when you and your three players try to talk about it in /OSRG/I'll post about it in /osrg/ nonstop just to annoy you more.
>>92643254Do people really dislike session zero? It's entirely designed around making sure everyone is on the same page regarding what kind of game is being played and the tone to head off any issues.
>>92643341>A new generation of spiritual oldfags will rise from the ashes of modernity to carry the torch.Bro you don't have to like it to admit that 5e has sold more PHBs than every previous single edition of D&D. Shitty "do whatever, idk" DM advice + nerf bat combat + railroad storylines is what the market wants, that's why they're selling it. Dragonlance influenced the next 40 years of game design because people want to play that sort of slop.
>>92644478No, Stranger Things has sold more. Not the merits of 5e itself. Between Hasjews attempt to videogamify and nickel and dime people to death with microtransacted vtt's and their insistence on not wanting to print books anymore there won't be a TT left for them in TTRPG. So when the fads gone and it's just a digital cash grab we'll see who remains.
>>92644539The 10 year fad. They've said 6e is going to be exactly the same as 5e specifically because sales are still going up:>By the end of the third edition, we were seeing a trend, a downturn [for] every product… And that's a signal to us… [but] the trend that we've seen in the last 10 years is not what we've seen with Third [Edition], not what we've seen with Fourth. The game is doing better and better and better. So we're not at a point in the life in Fifth Edition where we feel like, OK, the fans are telling us this is not the game for them. They're not saying that. They're saying 'we love Fifth Edition.' So then the question is, how can we make your Fifth Edition games better?5e's PHB outsold the PHB of the previous WotC editions by August 2016 (https://twitter.com/mikemearls/status/764241988128419840), one month after Stranger Things was first released.I mean, look, you can cope all you want, but the reality is people are playing this because they like it.
>>92642976>Honestly ACKS is fucking great but I wouldn't call it OSR. The creator doesn't either. >>92643169>ACKS is osr as the fundamental core is bx.Personally, I hope ACKS will go beyond the OSR label.I already seen glimpses of Macris trying to bolt the ritual/ceremonial magic on it, which would great since I'm tired of Vancian magic every time, all the time, in every D&D/OSR game I've seen.
>>92644405>I'll post in /OSRG/ constantly to spite *you*.Sucks to be them I guess.I'm the GURPSfag who came here to critique stupid comments. Though I do empathise with the OSRfags who just want to be left alone to play their 50 year old game and are tired of indie slop fanboys coming into their space insisting their random games belong there. Sounds infuriating.>inb4 I'll make it GURPS compatible instead and raid GURPSgen.Over the past couple years GURPSgen has become nothing more than people to ask what book and page the thing you're looking for is on. Go ahead. It might liven up the place.
>>92642210People have been doing that for 10 years, so...>>92642516Most of what people recognize as D&D is from Lorraine's tenure. Most of that is the Forgotten Realms.
>>92646261Forgotten Realms' domination over the brand has been a genuine cancer.
>>92646261Can confirm. Comics, Videogames, and Novels are what got me to try D&D not OSR dungeon crawls. Consequently, a generic roguelike is not the draw.
>>92643683That's the sad part, you're still not going to do it.
>>92642210Vagabonds of DyfedFreebooters on the Frontier World of Dungeons(Not Dungeon World)
>>92647258>You're still not going to do what the person you responded to said they were going to do.Anon. Learn to follow a thread. Lurk Moar.
>>92646829I can see how you would say that, as someone whose interest in D&D has always been mostly for FR sandbox adventuring because I like the novels and some of the videogames.I never showed up for OSR dungeon crawling, and the game I want to play (though it is still a game, unlike 5e storytime), is not at all the same game you're playing, it's a very different beast.The game I've played outside D&D that's the most like what I am looking for *From* D&D, is The Dark Eye with Aventurische Kompendium 2 rules (in German, translated through google translate, because for some reason he book with all the cool shit never came out in English).And OSR D&D just isn't a renaissance faction sandbox full of politicking (but Forgotten Realms kind of is)
>>92644412Some players hate it because they think in meme and decided it's 'storyshitting.'Or worst, they think of it like they think of the X Card shit because they lack critical thinking.
>>92643916This>Inb4 b-but we need a constant influx of midwits and mongoloids to survive!No, ttrpgs always were a minuscule niche living through the gravitational pull of other hobbies and products. Nobody introduced me to ttrpgs, i simply found about them through boardgames and general nerdom. The first time i tried to sit at a table (a Merp game) in my lgs i had already passed through heroquest and a becmi starter set (that my father brought to me from a generalist boardgame store) with my friends.>Inb4 that's because you're a grog, times changed old man!I met some early zoomers (class '97-98) that were introduced to ttrpgs through the 3e boxed set (picrel), they transitioned to the real thing quite easily by themselves.
>>92644412Yes. Because nothing kills a campaign's momentum quite like devoting an entire session to character creation. It's the "this meeting could have been an email" of RPGs.
>>92652089This, its very rarely useful and generally can just be done by talking and being normal with people instead of a 'session 0'.
>>92655008Does anyone actually make it a session anymore? I thought it was now used as a generic catch all term for "talk to your players to set expectations and build characters before campaign, and have them coordinate back stories"
>>92652089Totally untrue what the fuck lol everyone is even more excited after a character creation session
>>92644412>Kooky reactionary boomers hate it because people didn't do it in 1981. >Let's-get-down-to-business powergamer autists hate the idea of having an audition where everyone makes sure there's chemistry and common goals for the group. >People who get off on trampling other peoples' boundaries seethe at the idea of someone being able to veto things because they don't want to spend their precious free time roleplaying something that upsets them like sexual assault or bigotry. Sounds like Session Zero is doing its job by filtering out the human detritus.
>>92658705this desu kek updoot"Session Zero" is maybe a fifteen minute chat with the group, and/or a message in whatever shared messaging system you use to define the tone the GM is after and any limitations to adhere to.
>>92637477Better than waiting a year and change for monster manuals, cheaper overall too.
What're you talking about? ACKS just made filthy money off its recent kickstarter?
>>92644412Session zero is was made for games where it takes more than an hour to roll up your first character and becomes nonsensical in the context where it takes less than five minutes. It's essentially saying "we should spend an entire session talking about how we should play the game instead of actually taking time to play it".Anything it supposedly gives you is solved by the DM saying "you all need to share a common goal [like gold]" and either shifting the focus as necessary or being open about the kind of game they're willing to run.People trying to force that session-wasting mold onto the OSR, or other games where character creation is near instant, are utter retards.
>>92662445Give me my couple monster manuals and a grabbag of templates (tome of horrors, advanced bestiary), and I'll make enough weird variants to last decades.
>>92615753>4E inspired systems like LancerShadow of the Demon Lord, which LANCER is a direct hack of, is 4E inspired?
>>92662758It's a discussion on expectations, wants, house rules and limits of the game from both the GM and the Players beyond just the elevator pitch. It's more than just chargen.
>>92614838Did it die again? That's the third time this month.
>>926249882e fag, ur a true homo
>>92624988lol at pretending that 2nd ed was ever considered OSR rather than the very definition of the thing the OSR was reacting against. Or, better put, >>92663996
