Why do I not see more people talking about Hero System? Yes, it's a big crunchy and complex, but it's easily my favorite system by a mile because because it's so god damn freeform without being overly simplified, meaningless index card improv. Best TTRPG system in my opinion and the fact it gets overlooked so much is a tragedy.
I have read it years ago, can't remember much of it.Quick rundown pls?
>>92638921heros great as long as you avoid the canceraids of the later editions
>>92638988Fairly freeform and indepth system. You have base statistics and skills, but the real meat of the system are 'Powers', like Energy Blast or Duplication. Powers can be modified with 'Advanntages' and 'Disadvantages', which, when combined, allow you to make a power that will be a good, satisfying representation of any ability you can think of.Want to make a character who can make explosive kamikaze clones of himself? Duplication, reduced Endurance cost, reduced durability on the clones, every clone has a bonus power, AoE Energy Blast on themselves, where he is not immune to it's damage. Boom. The list goes on. One of the few systems where you can literally build anything and have it be mechanically supported.
>>92638921I read it once and loved it, the only reason i then settled with gurps was because of localisation in my native language (and i'm glad of it because my lazy-ass players wouldn't even bothered to play it otherwise). Unfortunately i have now its niche covered between gurps and mutants & masterminds so i wont have a feasible slot to employ hero for, i may if the star align in the future with the right group.
>>92639025what's wrong with the later editions, I thought they fixed some stuff
>>92639275I'm not sure, I actually liked 5th, but 5th was the many one I was taught, so bias. I did not care as much for 6th, for every good change there was two bad ones. But, if you have to start somewhere, 6th is the newest.
>>92639147The thing that got me to check out HERO was how much I hated M&M at the table. Still haven't gotten a chance to try it though.
>>92638921modern gamers are too dumb to do the math for this, same reason people gripe about GURPS . The few nugamers who might have tried it got sucked into Mutants and Masterminds, it's d20 based ripoff.
>>92639275Nothing. Or rather, they changed minor things, and thanks to the narcissism of small differences this has led to the pettiest edition wars imaginable. There's one truly big change from 4th to 6th--getting rid of figured characteristics--and then a bunch of window dressing that have effects on gameplay but are no reason to actually pick one edition over another.The biggest thing is the size of the books. Every edition became wordier in an attempt to explain and cover even more stuff. So 4th ed, often considered the platonic Hero System edition, is 220 pages, while 6th edition core is two volumes that total 784 pages. If you understand that the Hero rules are a reference to do literally everything you may or may not want to do, rather than a singular ruleset, then the extra page count is helpful rather than a hindrance. But if you like your books lean and mean, or are new to the system and hope to master it, that's pretty damn intimidating.
>>92645853Being dense books that are harder for new people to get into is a pretty significant difference though. Even if it plays pretty much the same for the people who are already intimately familiar with the system.
>>92638921Most zoomers/millennials who play RPGs besides D&D (who are themselves a minority of the larger TTRPG playerbase) want either rules-light (Fate, PbtA) or rules-medium (Savage Worlds, CoC, NWoD). The few who are into really crunchy games get funneled into GURPS.
>>92638921GURPS, while strictly inferior in every way, is more popular.
>>92646308GURPS is better for lower powered games than HERO is. Stuff around the action movie protagonist level or lower. Once you start looking at capeshit or shonen shenanigans, HERO becomes the better choice.
>>92647161>HERO doesn't do low poweruse the Skills and Equipment Guide books. Restrict players to buying certain types of Combat Skill Levels instead of raw OCV (the how good you hit with any type of attack stat)
>>92647507I didn't say HERO couldn't do low power at all, I said I think GURPS does low power better. Similarly, while I could use HERO for a Xianxia campaign without too much difficulty, GURPS is kindof terrible at those later Xianxia power levels (it could handle Foundation Establishment okay).
>>92646308Which is an annoyance, but I can't hate GURPS. I respect it's particular brand of autism, even if I think Hero System is better.
>>92639275In 6e the most noticeable changes are they use meters instead of 2m tabletop inches, got rid of figured characteristics so all stats are independent, and lowered the amount of mandatory complications.It doesn't change a lot between editions, it's no D&D, and there isn't even a change on the level of Gurps 3rd to Gurps 4th. If you like a certain edition keep using it, it's not like there's new HERO material being released. If you like something from an old edition, just put it back in 6e. The similarity between editions also makes it easy to use supplements that will never have a 6e version (due to them never making anything ever again) like Vehicles.
>>92638921Because it's a beautiful, freeform and, above all else, complicated system. The amount of work alone it takes to make a character, let alone stat out NPC's, is probably more than all but the most seasoned vets can stand. I love it, but god would I never run it. My job would become a second job to my campaign, which would be like a full time job on top of a part time one.
>>92639046Doesn't the GURPS Power module cover that though?
>>92646308But why
>>9263892199% of people who hear about it take a short look at the book and decide "Fuck, this shit is impossible to play"Therefore, dead.
>>92658244It does, yes. But the GURPS version tends to start breaking down in playability if you're looking at the superman type power level. It's also a more lethal game, because the defaults are not for capeshit. Making it do capeshit is rather more effort with GURPS.
I liked how "embracing" it was and the amount of liberty and options it gave, but by God, I can't understand a thing about how the combat system works
Don't think it gets played much, probably because it is a lot for GMs in the champions version. If you aren't just hand waving NPC abilities you have to spend quite a lot of time to build interesting scenarios, maps and NPCs especially when often you are having to take into account the vast variety of PC abilities. The customisability can be a hinderance unless you are going to be lazy and just have a suspicious number of villain teams that mirror the PCs. As an example of what I mean - If you make a "stop the Hulk" type encounter with a tanky brute monster, should one of your PCs have mental powers or the more esoteric drains ect the fight can be over very quickly. If you give them defences to make that less of a threat then those characters tend to be standing around doing nothing. Due to how OCV/DCV works you can also have some martial artist/speedster type who will never get hit but can't do enough damage in a given attack to matter. If you don't give the tank enough defence however your strong PCs can end up one hitting the guy. This is without mentioning the vast disparity that movement powers can bring into it. It is harder to balance an encounter to give all your PCs the feeling of being impactful and any stress on a GMs time will often end up with half your PCs feeling useless in a fight and sitting on their hands. The effort that PCs and GMs have to put into setting up things sort of demands longer campaigns which are rarer in general.
>>92666394The combat isn't that complicated though to run it quickly tends to be easier to just keep the rules in your head for the specific characters in the fight that try and learn how ever power works. Character creation is much easier if you use their HERO designer software
>>92666420Having not played it for a while, I think you've made some good points.I remember one fight where we had the exact opposite problem, reduced damage versus a horde for no obvious reason. Only one of us had an attack type that did anything and even that the GM admitted to handwaving and doing it for pity, but that was a GM problem not a Champions problem. We weren't a very diverse group so it's not like there was much problem in planning for us aside from the character customisation choices you already noted.
>>92648103> handle Foundation EstablishmentI'll happily run 3rd edition, thanks
>>92638921>Why do I not see more people talking about>big crunchy >complexPeople like simplicity. No matter how "good" a system is, if it can't easily convey the most information possible in the least amount of words, then it's doomed to obscurity.
>>92638921>Universal system>Only has rules for combat
>>92668227Sounds like a bad system. I wonder which one you're talking about.
>>92670428well that criticism applies to neither HERO or GURPS so I too await this system reveal with anticipation
>>92670428that was my takeaway from reading HERO, I'm genuinely curious what noncombat options there are because I couldn't see much
>>92638921>Why do I not see more people talking about Hero System?It's honestly too good to talk about. It doesn't have shitty rules like alignments to argue about. There's some character optimization, but nothing like other games funky class/race combos. No weird culture war drama.It's the best RPG system I've ever played, but the crunchiness filters tons of people and with a small player base, there's not much active discussion.
>>92670618*skimming I should say, I'm still getting my head around it
>>92648103>betterBetter how? I've liked and even ran low powered games in Hero.
>>92656743>The amount of work alone it takes to make a character, let alone stat out NPC's, is probably more than all but the most seasoned vets can stand.Maybe it's just because I picked it up on kindergarten, but character creation is super fast and easy of you have hero designer. Like I make characters in it faster than in DnD.
>>92666420>give all your PCs the feeling of being impactfulI think this is only a problem if you make it one. Just like comic books, sometimes a heroes power set is not good for an encounter, like Captain Explosion fighting kidnapers in an orphanage, or the Inhuman torch trying to infiltrate the fireworks factory or Mentallo vs the mindless robots. It gives players an opportunity to think outside the box and see how they can be heroic and contribute without their powers.
>>92670634>>92670618Weird. I have more people completion that there are too many non-combat options and ask me to trim down the skills list because it's too complicated.
>>92670706322It can be done, even with a group that has spread their powers across the archetypes, but it requires more effort from PCs than "use an attack power on your sheet" and from GMs to build encounters than most other games hence fewer games in general or ones that go any distance. The Phase system can also lead to some difficulty keeping attentions going at the table in combat for slower characters.If you do get a group that meshes with it and falls in love with the super hero genre it is one of the most rewarding games to play. I dream of recreating a 00s game I was in for six years
>>92670864>I dream of recreating a 00s game I was in for six yearsAny good stories?
>>92638921Its an amazing system, but creating a character without the hero designer program is horrifying. Also, it requires more from the player's side, meaning that it filters anyone who is a casual.
>>92670950>it filters anyone who is a casual.Maybe that's why I've had mostly good games with it.
>>92638921I already got 5 generic systems that rarely (if ever) get touched, why should I toss this one on the pile of perpetual non-use with Fate, GURPS, SWADE, BRP, and Genesys?
>>92672113>why should I toss this one on the pile of perpetual non-useYou shouldn't. Hero is the one true system. After it you will need no others.
>>92672254Same could be said of GURPS, BRP, and Genesys. Yet they don't get use because faggots won't learn a new system.
On the subject of HERO, which powers would you pick as your main thing?Villain or hero?
>>92670618That's mostly covered in the Skills book
>>92672587I'm not sure what you mean. Like for a character or IRL? For a character it depends on the concept I've got, which depends on the setting.
>>92672356>because faggots won't learn a new system.This has weirdly not been an issue for me. My last play group I held their hands through character creation, then they just told me what they wanted their character to do and I handled most of the mechanics.
>>92668227
