>setting is supposedly a European medieval fantasy world>town guards>snobbish, arrogant nobility >bastards are not acknowledged, shunned and disinherited >nobles who marry commoners automatically forfeit all titles and become commoners, even royal heirs>there is a town jail>certain crimes require a time in jail, but not execution, simply paying a fine isn’t enough>there is a magic shop anyone can enter and buy things from>feuds don’t exist between nobles, only wars and duels>there is an eternal inner peace in the kingdom>the king has legal dictatorial powers over everyone in his kingdom and even nobles are at least de jure required to do everything he says>every single commoner has to be polite and submissive to every single noble>no real identifiable national identities, only different accents>civilians usually aren’t armed and are harmless >mercenaries are individuals and not part of a company>most artisans and merchants are free entrepreneursJust learn some fucking history PLEASE
>>92666963>>town guardsexplain
>>92666963>>bastards are not acknowledged, shunned and disinheritedEven up until Charlemagnes time being a bastard wasn't a problem. Maybe you should learn some history.>>there is a magic shop anyone can enter and buy things fromNot a problem in the largest cities, you'd probably have to speak to sages who own private collections moreso than a store.
>>92666963But I love the town guards meme. Please don't take it away from me.
>>92667190>>every single commoner has to be polite and submissive to every single nobleWhy not? It's nice to be polite. Your average person is polite, only obnoxiously loud outliers aren't polite.
>>92667250I don't know if we are talking about the same thing
>>92667126Barely anyone here acknowledges Pre-Crusades medieval when talking about medieval history unfortunately.
H.Y.T.N.P.D&D.?
>>92667126>Even up until Charlemagnes time being a bastard wasn't a problem. Maybe you should learn some history.Read the OP again and think of what he is trying to communicate.
>>92667281>H.Y.T.N.P.D&D.?Hot Young Teens Post Dick and Dingleberries.
>>92666963haha no get rekt /his/fag this is a board for fantasy games not crying about people not knowin le heckin historyrun your own game pussy
>>92667250If you kill every salt of the earth farmer because he looked at you funny and said something offensive you would not have food to feed your army.You can get by killing a fair few to send a message who to respect, but if you give laynobles that kind of power your nation will struggle to produce enough serfs to perform your labor as most will move and others won't settle in your land
>>92667617That sounds like a real settled society problem to me dog.
>>92666963>European>fantasy world??? if it's a fantasy world there is no Europe
>>92666963Who gives a shit you sperg? A fantasy world's society doesn't need to be a 1:1 copy of historical ones.
>>92666963>Just learn some fucking history PLEASENo. Now roll for initiative, you're getting attacked by ninjas with a trained velociraptor while you were on your way to get pizza.
>>92667617Everything you just said sounds like a politeness problem.
>>92666977Town guards were never a thing. The idea of a town guard/ police officer did not exist until it was invented by the English for London specifically during the industrial revolution.
I like the idea of noble feuds
>>92666963No.
>>92667850when did they invent crime?
>>92668158Depends on what you mean by crime. Modern crime was invented around the same time hence the police officers. Otherwise it was really just every man for himself. Hence why everyone used to own weapons.
>>92666963>>fantasy world>>there is a magic shop>Just learn some fucking history PLEASECredibility lost.
>>92668171ok you are full of it
>>92667850Lol no. They might not wear a uniform or have ranks but they existed in some form or another. Sometimes they're basically firemen or night watchers or palace officials. You're just being le pedantic.
>>92666963>setting is supposedly a European medieval fantasy worldI've seen very few that state anything like that. Pendragon does, but what else?
>>92668158Codes of Hammurabi, 1750 or 1755 BC. Important highlights are reading men their rights, an example "an eye for an eye" arguably older than scripture, and NTR being punishable by death.
>>92667783Rules question, does the "ugh harder" caveman ability that increases damage with thrown projectiles include the railgun since his telekinetic abilities are fueling it? Surely that counts as him "throwing" it.
>>92668262In all likelihood the code of hammurabi was not the first system of laws ever invented, but it was notable for being the first one that was intended to be actually fair (and universally applicable) instead of arbitrary. Which is of course why it's famous. Oh, also it was also publicly posted so that anyone could easily see what the laws were.
>>92668158It was always there but the peasants handled it by punishing you if caught. Typically either by forcing you to pay back what you stole, getting run out of town, or if the crime is sever enough a hanging.And if you didn't get caught but everyone thinks it was you , you lose reputation and therefore lose a support next when things go bad.The closest to a guard was a market watchman who was paid by the town or by the local nobility to patrol on market days to catch thieves and adjudicate disputes. Otherwise what you had to rely on was whatever standing retinue the nobility had on hand which remained on their estate unless called upon, or a potential bouncer type for a prosperous and rowdy enough Inns to need one.In legal disputes it was mostly common law as understood by local tradition and occasional later on in more developed areas deliberations by traveling court official.Everything else was done by Mob Justice.
>>92666963>medievalSorry, all my games are set in a renaissance-to-reformation Europe primarily in an HRE-equivalent empire.
>>92667617Samurai did this all the time lol even once to a white boy and got a town bombarded as a result
>>92666963I missed these types of threads, this garbage is already nostalgic.
>>92668280The only problem is that it was never actually cited by any judge, or really followed or even used, as far as we can tell.
>>92666963Playing BG3 the other day I was thinking that it's more like the late 1800s with swords, but actual medieval mores would just be incomprehensible to the general player population
>>92667617But Russia, Baltic German holdings and Japan did work that way
>>92668374>But muh [savage shitholes]Who cares?
>>92668374Three locales famous for the incredibly short average tenure of any given ruling noble. You think there might be a connection?
>>92668374>"Medieval Europe">Starts talking about Russia and Japan
>>92667850>king of norway founded the town guards in the 1200's. uniforms and all.uhm....
>>92668428Part of Russia is geographically European, the Baltics definitely are in Europe. Plus the German principalities had a similarly brutal serfdom culture but it gets pretty complex there and I'm not very familiar with it
>>92668385Sure but that was over local power plays, not because you killed too many serfs. Only the Baltic German nobles had that problem and it was mostly because they tried to fuck over the Hanseatic League, and the city burghers fucked them over in return by giving escaped serfs automatic citizenship
>>92668436I guess you could count the Muscovite streltsy too but they're arguably Early Modern (still much earlier than 1800s however)
>>92666963Alright anon, how would YOU implement a historically accurate magic shop, i'd hate for my lightning bolts to not match the historical records
>>92666963Just play Harnmaster lol
>>92668436Do you have more info about this so I can research it more anon? I'm interested in Norway during this period
>>92668271A railgun isn't listed as a throwing weapon, so no, unless you're using it as an improvised thrown weapon.
>>92666963>all of that shithome…
>>92666963>there is a magic shop anyone can enter and buy things fromWhere exactly do you think people should read up on historically accurate magic shops?
>>92669007Not Op but you clearly get the magic items from Wise Women/Witches who live on the edge of the wilderness in return for a trade or suppliers, or from traveling merchants from somewhere you have never been.
>>92666963>>setting is supposedly a European medieval fantasy worldIs it, or did you just jump to conclusions due to some pats of the setting resembling medieval Europe despite other parts being different?
>>92667617>most will moveThat's why enserfment was a thing, literally to stop that
>>92668436Why are you stuttering over text
>>92669028The ye olde magic shoppe thing is what kind of does bug me, magic items should be special>>92669149Correct, I mean serfs (with exceptions) didn't have the right to move and would be pretty brutally herded back if they tried
>>92666963have you tried not being an autistic asshole with no place in society?
>>92668442>Part of Russia is geographically EuropeanThe vast majority of Russia is not European>the BalticsEastern europe barely counts as europe
>>92670252Finally, someone gets it.It would be like if we were talking about the US and someone brought up Guam and acted like it was an example of what it's like.
>>92668703cant give you much more than wikipedia https://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vekter_(eldre_tid)you are going to have to translate it yourself though
>>92667850>Linear development modelYou have a lot to learn.
>>92669260Because I'm trying to type while fingering your mom
>>92667617I think you've a very narrow understanding of what people have and do tolerate. I think you're also misunderstanding that a noble having the power over life and death does not mean he'd always exercise it; he might just have you beaten, disfigured or just seize some assets.
>>92668158When they invented laws, but he's right that the idea of an organized constabulary was the sign of a large city with developed institutions that was definitely not indicative of a small town's level of development.While OP is generally being a bit of a sperg he's right that most of the institutions we take for granted today simply did not exist back then. Communities could mobilize men over a certain age of participate in manhunts, for example--which was basically just a lynch mob, but the concept of highly organized professional police as a civilian authority answerable to municipal authorities required a LOT of surplus wealth and civic institutions.More commonly in small towns the Mayor or some local families might have toughs to protect property or enforce laws, but these wouldn't be uniformed, essentially they weren't beat cops. The idea of the beat cop would be considered completely insane in the medieval world, someone whose ONLY JOB is to prevent people from committing crimes is a pretty insane luxury, and would only be necessary in major cities where crime gets out of control.
>>92666963>>town guardsAccurate, not universal.>>snobbish, arrogant nobility Accurate.>>bastards are not acknowledged, shunned and disinherited Not universal, but known.>>there is a town jailHappened, but not frequently.>>certain crimes require a time in jail, but not execution, simply paying a fine isn’t enoughHappened, see debtor's prisons and penal mines. Let's count galleys at well, since from the late medieval period through the renaissance into the early modern, galley slavery was used as a form of imprisonment. French really liked it.>>there is a magic shop anyone can enter and buy things fromSure, depending on the size of town. No guarantee any of it is real. >>feuds don’t exist between nobles, only wars and duelsWhat system, what game? Be specific and detailed.>>there is an eternal inner peace in the kingdomWhat system, what game? Be detailed and specific.>>the king has legal dictatorial powers over everyone in his kingdom and even nobles are at least de jure required to do everything he saysHappened in France, Russia, and Spain. English fought a series of wars over it (Cromwell was a totalitarian dictator in all but name.)>>every single commoner has to be polite and submissive to every single nobleVery common, not universal.>>no real identifiable national identities, only different accentsWhat system, what game? Be specific and detailed.>>civilians usually aren’t armed and are harmless What system, what game? Be specific and detailed.>>mercenaries are individuals and not part of a companyWhat system, what game? Be detailed and specific.>>most artisans and merchants are free entrepreneursPretty common, not universal.
>>92672095>Happened in France, Russia, and Spain. English fought a series of wars over it (Cromwell was a totalitarian dictator in all but name.)That was in the 17-18th centuries. Not Medieval by any means.
>>92672118Absolute monarchies were already developing in the late medieval period.
>>92672197The late medieval period had increasingly centralized monarchies, but they were by no means absolute. The closest thing to an absolute monarchy in the 16th century and before would be the Ottomans or the Byzantines, neither of whom are particularly relevant to European feudalism.
>>92666963>setting is supposedly a European medieval fantasy worldName one that claims this.
>>92669741>The ye olde magic shoppe thing is what kind of does bug me, magic items should be specialI mean that's a fine opinion to haver. I just don't see how it has anything to do with historical accuracy.
>>92667126You were so desperate to correct OP you missed the fact he’s saying the same thing you are
>>92668244Basically this.There was a night watch of men-at-arms in much of Europe from at least the 13th century. We're they literally medieval cops like fiction portrays town guard? No.
>>92668244No. He's right on this one. Even Rome didn't have what you mention until Augustus. Russia didn't have the streltsy until Ivan the terrible and that's in the 15h century, and a municipal streltsy was just a levy and not a towns guard. So in all of Russia by the 16th century Russia has a town guard in a single city. For most of human history and in most of the world, law is maintained by posses, bodyguards and clan structures.
>>92666963Friendly reminder that if you question modern mythology such as science vs religion you can get treated poorly by society.>>92667617It never happened. Once you realize media loves to paint earlier times as barbaric to make you not question today's society you understand why they accuse you of things they do to you. Defending the Church and proving that they were right can get you banned.
>>92672892Its got about as much to do with historical accuracy as historical accuracy does with a fantasy setting.
>>92666963>every single commoner has to be polite and submissive to every single nobleEveryone below a noble had to be deferential. Medieval Europe is literally famous for it's social class system
>>92666963No. A wizard did it.
>>92666963>no real identifiable national identitiesYou're drunk anon
>>92666963Most of these are completely irrelevant considering DnD and many other settings are explicitly more early modern in tech/society levelNot to mention greater population and different societal organization compared to IRL, or the fact that at least half of the things you list there are ALSO historically inaccurate or overly broad
>>92668428Everything east of the Elbe functioned like that.Even after the crisis of the 13th century.
>>92666963>there is a magic shop anyone can enter and buy things fromWhat's this one in particular? We don't really have the best comparison to this, because in real life, random people would peddle bullshit and say it was a saint's finger or some sort of special thing.>>92667278People do when it comes to the Norse, but then it's usually just injecting Vikings into a post-1096 Europe.
>>92666963>See dad? My medieval studies degree wasn't waste of time and money!You sure showed him.
OP here. Time to clean up the trash.>>92674547Bullshit. There are medieval depictions of feuds (you probably don’t even know what a feud is), where peasant women are nobles, who are trying to torch their homes and fields, with whatever blunt instruments they could find, maybe even the stereotypical rolling pin. Does that sound like she is deferential to the noble? And here‘s the kicker. He is not going to massacre the peasants whose homes he just destroyed. Maybe just beat them up a bit. But it was about fucking with the noble, who they are bound to. Not about killing his peasants.>>92672292Every DnD players I ever played with said this, except a single other person, who said the stereotypical depiction of the middle ages by DnD has more similarities to later periods.>>92670150No.>>92669007Because there are so many things you can draw from to make acquiring magic items interesting and you went for the most boring option of them all. >>92668521Anything. Pick anything historical that seems even slightly interesting to. Just copy & paste monasteries for example and only change the fact that the monks there are creating magical items. That would be interesting as fuck. You‘d have these monastic societies, who are given huge self-sufficient estates, living in fortified monasteries, but also despite apparent seclusion an important part for the local economy and social structure. Or make a magister an official title in a feudal society, who is in a feudal contract with his lord and owes him certain stipulated magical services in exchange for permission to build a fortified tower, tax rights over peasants or toll rights. Anything but don’t make Merlin into a fucking shop keeper. lol>>92667190You can have gate guards. Merchant guards. Towns in Germany basically had the idea that free men would come together and swear an oath to defend their town. You can have like 10% your town‘s population be compromised of Oath-Sworn, who are armed citizens.
>>92676374>Every DnD players I ever played with said this, except a single other person, who said the stereotypical depiction of the middle ages by DnD has more similarities to later periods.NTA but I don't think DnD has any similarities with anything, it's basically a simulacrum at this point and it's really depressing how many people think it's representative. I would go as far as to say the real medieval era is more obscure than the bronze age, since there's this layer of trash covering any real information.
Imagine how more interesting your fantasy universe could be, if instead of anonymous respawning town guards, you made it so „citizenship“ to a town meant something. You can come up with cool names like Oathsworn. And you could visually distinguish them from the rest of the population. Maybe they are the only ones armed. Or they stick red feathers to their hat or special belt. This would also just connect them further with the rest of history, because many tribes had very unique identifiers, which would instantly show what clan or tribe they belonged to. Now you also have more diverse social classes than simply nobles and commoners, because these townspeople would be closer to the stereotype pf a Knight than a peasant. Knights on other hand can be made even more rural. Make them actually live in forts outside town. Lots of Knights had toll rights to roads. This is where the myth of knights degenerating into bandits come from. Because that‘s actually townie propaganda, who as towns became larger started ignoring the privileges of Knights, because they came into conflict with them. When towns can field large enough escorts to just show the middle finger to any knight trying to get a toll from them to support himself, what is he supposed to do? And towns often illegally tried Knights for banditry and hanged them asap they got their hands on them. Other times they would employ them, sometimes just so the feud they have with the town would legally rest for the employment period. >>92676417Yeah. That’s unfortunate. People are state-brained. They can’t imagine a society based on oaths, honor, privileges and rights as opposed to one single central authority giving clear guidelines to their life. People aren’t even able to think up an actually free world.
>>92668158The way you and I think of it today? The 1800's, and even then, it didn't change much. While antisocial behavior is endemic to human society (as are methods to curb it), the state didn't start getting involved in those efforts until relatively recently. It used to be, if someone did a murder, at most, the local sheriff would round up some tough guys from around town to go fuck that guy up.Gangs paid by the moneyed classes to fuck up anyone who makes them uncomfortable for any reason, meanwhile, have existed for thousands of years, from hired guards in the Roman Republic to colonial-era constables all the way up to modern police. The main difference is that, until Dragnet came out, being a business-owner's hired thug breaking the legs of anyone who steals from you or just someone trying to open a business in what you've decided was your turf was considered an unsavory profession peopled exclusively by scumbags. This didn't change; the business-owners just started lying on behalf of the scumbags.
>>92676417I don’t disagree.I’ve called the bread and butter settings (Faerun, Golarion) “Renaissance Faire Fantasy” because that’s basically what they are. You might stumble on a bit of history now and again but that’s not really the main thrust.I’d say one step grittier you have places like Greyhawk and Mystara, which are still flash gordon / renfaire cheesefests, but beneath the power metal aesthetic there are some more medieval social / economic / political systems.The only times I’ve seen D&D really get into historical fantasy is literally when they set shit IN medieval europe, but with magic and elves and shit.None of this to say that these settings are bad, they just aren’t trying to be particularly medieval other than the barest trappings.
>>92676374>You can have gate guards.oh yes very different than the town guards as they are in most games
>>92676475>ACAB meets revisionismCaramel latte please.
>>92676509The history of organized law enforcement isn't special or unique. Everything everywhere has always had a filthy history. Organized labor and organized crime have been joined at the hip pretty much forever, and some of the earliest examples of what we understand today to be cops were unpaid yokels conscripted by lottery to patrol around town and take bribes to look the other way (and were typically very drunk). You don't get to clean the grime off of history no matter how badly you want to suck a SWAT's shotgun barrel.
>>92676541they had laws though
>>92676541You can't clean the grime off history but you'd better clean the ice machine before next shift.
>>92676374>Because there are so many things you can draw from to make acquiring magic items interesting and you went for the most boring option of them all.And where should I read up on the historical information related to magic items?
>>92676475>breaking the legs of anyone who steals from youWhy pretend thieves are anything other than subhuman parasites who deserve violent treatment?
>>92666963>setting is supposedly a [...] FANTASY worldJust learn how to have fucking fun PLEASE
>>92668158You're a fucking moron. I need you to know that. You lack sense, historical knowledge, logical thought, and a spine.
>>92678134uncalled for
>>92674194>Once you realize media loves to paint earlier times as barbaric to make you not question today's society you understand why they accuse you of things they do to you. Defending the Church and proving that they were right can get you banned.That is not a "today" problem. Ever since the Renaissance Europe's intellectual elites have regularly decided that every single person who lived before was actually a fucking retard and a savage brute. Renaissance scholars were so hellbent on proving that they are the pinnacle of human civilization that a lot of their projections and fabrications about medieval life still live on as dark ages "facts" over 600 years later.
>>92677356Don‘t be petty.
>>92678492This.
>>92676374So are you using this knowledge to run fun and 'period accurate' games? Or are you just here to bitch and moan because try as you might, all the world building and tax code writings can't help you write an interesting story?
>>92666963>european medieval fantasy game>party can somehow take on the local lord and his five hundred men at arms
>>92666963/tg/ fears non stereotypical feudalism even more states that never filled the mold of it during the medieval age.I do like byzantine autocracy yes I do. Especially during the Macedonian Dinasty.
>>92666963>Setting is supposedly a Roman-esque Fantasy setting.>Anyone who's anyone wears full plate, and wields a Longsword or Greatsword.>Homosexuality is almost universally criminalized.>If you put a toe outside of a set of codified social expectations, that are never explained but are written down, people in other countries will know about it and treat you as if you're a criminal.>Sexual slavery is extremely common, and slaves, hell, anyone sworn to the service of anyone, pretty much has no rights and can be freely abused by anyone above them, who will do this when they're bored.>Wars and genocides are committed on people for praying to a god that the genociders admit isn't evil in any way.>Any kind of sexual interaction that's not between a married hetrosexual couple is seen as either the height of degeneracy, a failure of manhood, or a criminal offense.>If you're a slave, or a woman, you're worth nothing and have no power over anything in your life.Dear god anon I fucking get you.
>>92681981>Anyone who's anyone wears full plate, and wields a Longsword or Greatsword.>Wars and genocides are committed on people for praying to a god that the genociders admit isn't evil in any way.>Sexual slavery is extremely common, and slaves, hell, anyone sworn to the service of anyone, pretty much has no rights and can be freely abused by anyone above them, who will do this when they're bored.These are the only three that seem flat-out wrong. The conservative norms could make sense for an early republican Rome or Roman monarchy-inspired setting.If it's inspired by Imperial Rome, all that flies out the window, though. Tell your table to read Satyrica if they think Imperial Rome was a conservative society.
And what about Gondor's tax policy?
>>92681608I don't know if he's doing it directly, but he just gave me some excellent ideas for my game that I'm going to use.
>>92666963No
>>92666963What's unrealistic about snobs and arrogant nobles? They're used to having better things to do than talk to common laborers, so they act like they're being imposed upon even when it's not a big deal.
>>92682243What are you planning, anon?>>92683141That’s not true. Nobles and commoners intermingled very much. Only in the Victorian age, centuries after the middle ages ended, the nobility secluded themselves from commoners. The Industrial Age caused an explosion in population. Our medicine was good enough to cure some diseases, which caused child mortality to go below 40% which was a standard in all of human history. In fact that child mortality is maybe as important to healthy human reproduction as millions of sperm racing to fertilize the egg. That caused very new horrifying diseases to appear all of a sudden. More ill people for diseases to mutate, but also just more people. This caused nobles to distance themselves physically from the common people, where this reputation comes from.Before that in the middle ages nobles and commoners were very close. After all every single generation many sons and daughters of nobility with little or nothing to inherit would join the commoners in social rank. There was constant downward social mobility, which is one of the reasons why the Industrial Evolution was possible in Europe, because the commoners got smarter every single generation by the Elite outbreeding them. This is also why most Europeans, who are alive today, have land-owning farmers from the 17th century in their family tree.
>>92668262>NTRadultery
>>92667850>they didn't have night watch before the industrial revolutionlol k
I think this whole debate comes down to just whether the setting is consistent. When you are playing a fantasy TTRPG being historically accurate has no intrinstic value. However it has a lot of worldbuilding value because as long as you follow historical example, you know the stuff would actually work the way you are describing. When you add magic to your setting, you have to be careful though, because this kind of addition would always bend those rules. Thats when the creativity comes in.Anyways, I balance between the fantasy tropes and actual historical examples when creating a world of my own, trying to create a world that is both fantastical and fun but consistent and logical at the same time.
>>92676374>(you probably don't even know what a feud is)This made me laugh harder than it should have. Imagine trying to be elitist over shit you learned in Intro to Literature in high school.
>>92676509>Caramel latteDamn, you want a dick in your ass with that, fruity?
>>92676374>Every DnD players I ever played with said this,europe doesn't exist in DnD>Verification not required.
>>92666977He just found out about this playing Manor Lords and now needs to tell everybody like it's breaking news.
>>92666963>setting is supposedly a European medieval fantasy world>town guardsif the one thing making it a "fantasy world" is the presence of dangerous wild monsters, that makes perfect sense. you nincompoop idiot fuck. fuck you.
>>92666963Why do fantasy settings give historyfags aneurysms? I’m here for fantasy not to join you as you jerk off your autistic hobby and make more historical fiction pretending to be fantasy
>>92685326Because actual history is so much more interesting than DnD medieval fantasy stereotypes. >>92684824So there are dangerous monsters OUTSIDE town? Why do you need the town guards meme INSIDE towns? I gave you so many more interesting alternatives. The nobles and masters of the hunt, who take care of these beasts can also themselves become more dangerous and fantastical in relation to the danger of the beasts they have to face.>>92684226It‘s true though. Most people don’t know what a medieval feud is. It would confuse them too much to just confront them with the concept of a feud, especially the implication that there isn’t some absolute law, which instantly identifies one feuding party as criminal and the other one as in the right. Then tell them that nobles actually had a legal RIGHT to feud and watch their head explode trying to fit this into their worldview.
>>92687070>>92683816>Nobles aren't arrogant snobs with superiority complexes>Also they were constantly feuding with eachother for no reason other than having hurt feefees over nothingAt least try to stay consistent
>>92666963>>92676374Why don't you stop complaining and start building a historically accurate setting OP? Bitchin' won't get you anywhere. There's even a thread up where you could bring in your unmeasurably vast knowledge about medieval history right know >>92635512
>>92687070Town guards have been invented for roleplaying games in order to prevent players from just going full murderhobo whenever they enter a town.
>>92687833They would sort of exist depending on the situation, context. Such as having soldiers posted in a town, depending on the context like the Knight's Templar owning the village, county, etc. But usually, it's just a citizen's militia enforcing things in regular clothes. And or maybe a soldier or two at the gates, if there are gates.
>>92687532You think and talk like a peasant. A single Knight was brave enough to have a feud against an entire city. An entire city. And the seething townspeople were seething so much, they often hanged these knights in the rare cases, where they were captured, despite that not being lawful. Despite that the Knights were good sports about it and in times of need even allowed a town, which they have been feuding with, to give them a very generous payment, which would allow the fearful little sheep in the towns some rest, because a Knight, who is feuding with them, let‘s the feud rest for the employment period, but as soon as it ends, picks it right back up.>>92687833I gave you many alternatives to town guards. Town guards aren’t needed for that job. It‘s just a lazy stereotype to make them game less interesting. Wouldn’t wealthy townspeople owning their own equipment and all male citizens having sworn an oath to protect the city be way more interesting? Then the murderhobo party is actually killing important NPCs, who own shops or do other important work.You can also have an old Knight, a very high level fighter, who is retired, sit around in town all day and be very popular with the women of the town. He is too slow and doesn’t like to travel beyond the city, but the women take care of him. The women tell him about all of the latest gossip. So if they heard suspicious noises or the rogue picking locks at night or whatever, he and some young men, who respect him and want to learn from him, would confront the party. Of course they would also do this, while being recognized by the bailiff, who has know him for decades.Also there really was no bystander effect in the middle ages. The bailiff could mobilize the male population of a town, who‘d join him with clubs. Also the men of a town were legally required to purchase weapons and armor, depending on their wealth and then line up and show up fully-kitted out. That was a regular event.
>>92690012>One Knight>Being noticed by, let alone threatening by a CITY of peopleYou're retarded. If half of what you weere saying was true, you'd have examples of how that even would be the case. But this doesn't even make sense as some retards fantasy of what ye good olde days were supposed to look like
>>92690012How does the bailiff derive authority? I'm not all that familiar with how the chain of command worked back then, or if the pop culture take of Local Lord (Owns the town) > Bailiffs/Knights/Men At Arms (works directly for him) > Everyone else, is accurate
>>92690012>wouldn't [x] be way more interesting?This is such a fucking nothing of a complaint that it makes anything else you say not worth reading. What (You) find interesting is hardly relevant to someone else's game. Whether they have a small group of town guardsmen patrolling the streets or protecting it from outside threats, or the mayor gathers up a posse of random guys with whatever weapons they can scrounge together really doesn't change anything. Either way, the party is getting jumped by twenty guys probably not as well equipped as them for trying to rob the shopkeep.
>>92684422Is Manor Lords good?
>>92690012I think you just wanted to jack off about the old knight having a harem
Oh oh here he comesWatch out adventurer he'll chew you upWatch out here comesHe's a local lord
>>92691287See how amazing history can be? You don’t even believe me, because what I said sounds so unbelievable. And no of course a single Knight isn’t a huge threat to a town. What they did was form an alliance with each other. Other people could also join their side in the feud and were legally recognized as participants. If the rights of a lot of Knights over toll roads for example were threatened and the cities became too aggressive, you could have these kinds of coalitions, who would also have a legitimate legal and economic interest to see their side win. Look up Goetz von Berlichen. He was on the last generations of rural Nobility, who tried to fight the overreach of the cities. He also has a very famous quote and even had a Waffen-SS division named after him.>>92691320The bailiff is the official appointed by the owner of a region for a single town. Remember that nobles didn’t live in the cities they owned. That‘s something that should be emphasized. It‘s a peculiar things and quite extraordinary. Other ethnic groups didn’t do that. It has something to do with the Germanic past of European nobility. They continued to live rural and build fortifications for their chiefs to live in and just let the cities mostly rule themselves like did before they came along. Nobles even figured out that the more freedom you let the cities have, the larger and more prosperous they grew. But sometimes this also lead to a period where nobles tried to re-assert their rights over these golden geese. He bailiff basically does everything. For all intents and purposes you could treat him like the ruler of the city. He even can act as a judge. And he is someone, who represents the interests of his Lord. But some cities have powerful councils, who want more autonomy and marginalize the bailiff. Some even managed to attain the right to appoint the bailiff, which, you can imagine, at that point they are basically a free city.
>>92691433lolYeah, I intentionally worded it kinda sus, but my point was that women in the middle ages were a spy agency. They knew everything. They are washing your bed and see a we spot? And it smelly kinda fishy? But your wife was out of town? Now there is talk you cheated on her. It‘s literally impossible to commit in the middle ages in a town. Don’t try to argue this point. It‘s literally impossible.
>>92691287An example (and I believe the one anon is talking about) is Goetz von Berlichingen>He was active in numerous military campaigns during a period of 47 years from 1498 to 1544, including the German Peasants' War, besides numerous feuds; in his autobiography he estimates that he fought 15 feuds in his own name, besides many cases where he lent assistance to his friends, including feuds against the cities of Cologne, Ulm, Augsburg and the Swabian League, as well as the bishop of Bamberg.They way this usually works is that the knights robs the cities merchants and takes hostages.
>>92691681How are some ways feuds between Knights and cities or towns might start? The toll stuff makes sense, but surely not all Knights were just glorified toll keepers. Likewise when it comes to feuds between other nobles or noble families.
>>92691320i am not him, but a bailiff in england could technically be appointed by the king, appointed by a local lord, or appointed by a city council, the level of authority would depend entirely on whose livery he was wearing. the kings bailiff obviously would be acting on the highest authority, though he was not allowed to enter a city because these by definition had their own priviledge. how it worked precisely in other medieval countries is probably different in various ways i couldnt list. technically in england a noble could not own a town or city (though they often got their family members elected mayor via influence) as these were all by definition created by royal charter, subinfuediation was both illegal and null, but of course this is certainly not the case everywhere as >>92691681 seems to say it was in germany, so i wont counter him on that as i dont know enough about iti will relate an ammusing record involving a bailiff however>Accident played a great part in the social life of the fourteenth century. Society was in reality neither calm nor quite settled, and many of its members were still half savage. >The facts happened in 1342. Some Lichfield merchants state to their lord, the Earl of Arundel, that on a certain Friday they sent two servants and two horses laden with spicery and mercery, worth forty pounds, to Stafford for the next market day. When their men “came beneath Cannock Wood” they met Sir Robert de Rideware, Knight, waiting for them, together with two of his men, who seized on the servants, horses, and goods, and took them to the priory of Lappeley. Unfortunately for the knight, during the journey, one of the servants escaped. (tbc)
>>92691797>At the priory the band found “Sir John de Oddyngesles, Esmon de Oddyngesles, and several others, knights as well as others.” It was evidently a pre-arranged affair, carefully devised ; all was done according to rule ; they shared “among them the aforesaid mercery and spicery, each one a portion according to his degree.” That done, the company left Lappeley and rode to the priory of Blythebury, a nuns' priory. Sir Robert declared that they were the king's men, quite exhausted, and begged for hospitality. But the company had obviously a suspicious appearance, and the abbess refused. Indignant at this unfriendly reception, the knights burst open the doors of the barns and lofts, gave hay and oats to their horses, and so passed the night.>But they were not the only people to have made a good use of their time. The escaped servant had followed them at a distance ; when he saw they had taken up their quarters at the priory he returned with all speed to Lichfield and warned the bailiff who hastened to collect his men for the pursuit of the robbers. The latter, men of the sword, as soon as they were met, stood their ground, and a real battle took place, in which they had at first the upper hand, and wounded several of their pursuers. At length, however, they were worsted and fled ; all the spices were recovered, and four of their company taken, who, without further ado, were beheaded on the spot.>Robert de Rideware was not one of the latter, and did not lose heart. He met his relative Walter de Rideware, lord of Hamstall Rideware, with some of his followers, while the bailiff was on his way back to Lichfield ; all together veered around in pursuit of the bailiff. A fresh fight. This time the king's officer was routed and fled, while the highway gentlemen once more captured the spices.
>>92691808>What resource remained for the unhappy William and Richard, authors of the petition ? Resort to justice ? This they wanted to do. But as they were going for this purpose to Stafford, chief town of the county, they found at the gates some retainers of their persecutors, who barred their passage and even attacked them so hotly that they had difficulty in escaping without grievous hurt. They returned to Lichfield, watched by their enemies, and led there a pitiable existence. “And, sir, the aforesaid William and Richard, and several people of the town of Lichfield, are menaced by the said robbers and their maintainers, so that they dare not go anywhere out of the said town.”>One may, especially, notice the coolness and determination of the knights, not disconcerted by the death of four of their number ; the attack under cover of a wood ; the selection of the victims, “garsuns” belonging to rich merchants ; the request for hospitality in a priory under pretext of journeying in the king's service ; the expeditious justice of the bailiff, and the persistent surveillance to which the victims were subjected by their lordly robbers.>Other noblemen were, like him, supported by devoted retainers, ready for any enterprise. Capes and liveries of their masters' colours were given to them, and they went about as the uniformed soldiers of their chief ; a lord well surrounded with his partizans considered himself as above the common law, and it was no easy matter for justice to make herself respected by him. The custom of having a number of resolute followers wearing one's colours became universal at the end of Edward III's reign and under Richard II. so they at least had the authority to just execute people on the spot, but also such authority only reached as far as they could actually win fights
>>92691754A town might for example start to build a fort somewhere, which overshadows the keep of a knight, which pisses him off. Or a lord builds a fort very close to a river with the intention to tax merchants, who come by boat. This pisses off the city. Then there are also disputes over who has the right to bring someone to court. This is something cities sometimes just ignored by hanging „robber knights“ as soon as they got their hands on them.In retaliation some Knights would patrol their area and stop all merchants from a city they declared a feud with and hold them in ransom.Also Knights aren’t singular people. They might have something akin to a „gang“, who‘d help them for example with collecting tolls. Getting your hands on taxes was hard in the middle ages. But having rights to collect a toll was a way to really make some pretty good coin. Especially for well-travelled roads. Merchants literally had to constantly pay tolls everywhere they went. Sometimes they didn’t. I mean what can a Knight and a handful of his men do against a merchant caravan with hundreds of guards for example? But yeah the thing is if you don’t declare a feud, you risk your right to something basically being annulled. If a certain legal situation persists for hundred of years, it turns into a legal precedent. Feuds can have all kinds of reasons though. Eventually this was legalized and you had to officially declare a feud by sending the other party a letter and your reasons for it.>>92691797German towns in the middle ages started out very small for the most part and grew over time, so they had to fight for their autonomy. Except for the cities founded by the Romans, but those were often made into Bishoprics. Like Cologne for example. That was an actual city, but it was subjected to basically the absolute rule of the bishop of Cologne, which was unfortunate for its development. It could have been the capital of the HRE.
>>92692093Couldn't they just get along?
>>92691427it's ok
>>92667299I don't think that's it Sinclair
>>92692132The towns sometimes employed knights, who are feuding with them, so the feud would rest during their employment. And there was also a movement by people, who pushed for feuds to be made illegal or at least for them to rest on holidays and certain weekdays. This is comparatively mild to what some other people we up to. Other ethnic groups have concepts where your oath requires you to kill the people, who wronged you and there is absolutely no reconciliation. Your honor depends on you killing them. Dwarves from Warhammer got this attitude from the Italians and Greeks.
>>92692093>>92692358thats interesting to me, is cool how similar but how different things can be. i knew about the robber barons up and down the rhine but wasnt quite clear how much an impact they had
>>92667850>The idea of a town guard/ police officer did not exist until it was invented by the English for London specifically during the industrial revolutionMy brother in Christ Augustus organized a force of firefigthers and watchmen in 6AD.Henry issued an ordinance in 1252 stipulating that men were to be apointed to aprehend criminals and quell breaches of the peace.You are Dunning–Kruger made flesh.
>>92667850For an long as the concept of "this is mine and you can't have it" has existed, there have been armed men to enforce it. Also it was Scotland, not London, that's why it's called Scotland Yard, it was the origin of the modern idea of police, but not the origin of law enforcement in general.
>>92681981>>Homosexuality is almost universally criminalized.If I remember correctly the entire idea that Romans were fag came from a jewish faggot who's evidence was exactly 1 pot owned by a hated noble depicting it, then just said that 25 other pots that in no way depicted faggotry were faggot coded.
>>92698183That's the whole "greeks were ghey" thing, the Etruscans had a bunch of rich pervs than were into all kinds of stuff(zoo, gangbangs, raping kids) and they reached an attic pottery to comision they whole stuff, that's from where the majority of the ghey pots come from. Homos in greek cities fluctuate, from kill on sight to the powerful ones are tolerated because money, but the whole pederastry thing, its like thinking all squires were ghey, incredible over blown be homos in the 19/20th century.
>>92666963Here's a map of Europe, point to where my setting is.
>>92698510Strange, strange.Because painters working specifically for the Etruscan market come to adopt specifically Etruscan motiffs, like Vanth the psychopomp, Erotic red figure pottery has none of that which would indicate that although a deal of it may have ended up in Etruscan tombs that wasn't what it was made with in mind.Ultimately this is a methodological and on your part a brain issue: a large amount of the corpus of well-preserved Greek pottery was found in Etruria because the Etruscans were in the habit of preserving it for use in burial contexts rather than smashing it up, this does not mean that every pot and pan with such a provenance was painted with a rich Etruscan in mind.And as for the depth og Etruscan perversity it seems to have extended to allowing respectable married women to take part in the symposium rather than making that the exclusive domain of men and their prostitute guests.
>>92668428>>92670252Russian expansion into Asia/Siberia only started in the 1500s. The cultural and political core as well as the center of population has always been in Europe.
>>92667850Guild apprentices were often used as a policing force in big cities. In villages and smaller towns there could be a reeve and he would have a group of men we'd now recognise as deputies. Their role would be to enforce the laws and dispense justice.I'm beginning to think the OP might just be exquisite bait.
>>92666963>>92698510>>92698183>>92681981>Dunning-Kruger Midwits From /pol/ - The Thread
>>92698939Do you not understand that what you just said disproves the town guard meme?
>>92690012You clearly know nothing about medieval history lol. Sounds like your "education" is acquired from watching youtube videos. What medieval era are you even talking about in the first place and in which region?
>>92699117I am not here to educate people. I am here to give them ideas to simulate their world in a more historically authentic way.
>>92699142The historically authetnic way being something you misundertood about a pop-his youtube videoSee: le town guards didn't exist meme
>>92699142>I am not here to educate people.Correct. Because educating someone would require some actual knowledge about the thing you are talking about. All your doing is parroting some shallow talkingpoints on the level of pic related while not even specifying the period or country you are talking about. You sound like a child that just learned a new word or a teenager who thinks he's deep for whatever the fuck reason.
>>92699161The town guard meme of fully-kitted out anonymous soldiers being employees of the town and being paid to patrol or stand watch the entire day to catch criminals is historically inaccurate as fuck and even worse than that it‘s really boring.If you actually know more about this topic and like how Ancient Romans had a patron, who was in a kinda of mafia-like relationship with them, so basically they had their own gangs, who would protect their own turf or merchant guards or the bailiff being able to sort of „draft“ men in the town as needed to catch criminals or all of the other ideas in this thread. If you already know about that, then I am happy for you. We are on the same side.>>92699167Do you expect me to actually give you university-level lectures about history? Of course I am not going to put such an amount of effort into my posts. And no one should expect this in a 4chan thread. The very topic itself necessitates that you paint with very broad strokes. Because we are not discussing a specific era in history in a a certain cultural region. We are doing the reverse. We are talking about a vaguely medieval-inspired fantasy world with and criticizing it for it‘s shallow portrayal of that world, while giving better ideas from many different places and times in history.That‘s all I am going to say to this kind of criticism.
>>92699197>Do you expect me to actually give you university-level lectures about history?No. That would be far beyond your abilities. You also ridiculously overestimate the quality of most such "university-level lectures".This just goes to show that you've never seen a university from the inside.
>>92699197>being paid to patrol or stand watch the entire day to catch criminals is historically inaccurate as fuckWhile not exactly being the norm this exact thing actually DID happen during the late medieval era at SEVERAL places but how would you know. Protip: Constantinople isn't some foreign food.
>>92684824>I hear you're a racist now, anon!
>>92699238It‘s not that. I said that, because my brother studies history and I have seen the kind of posts he does about history in social media. He even includes sources and links to studies. I am obviously not on his level and am not even going to bother to attempt to compete with him on that. I am able to bring up some things he doesn’t know about, because he isn’t a right-wing radical like me, who follows obscure twitter accounts with esoteric history knowledge.>>92699268Constantinople is actually quite foreign. Eastern Rome wasn’t conquered by a Germanics, who became the new nobility and warrior class. It had a very different attitude and if you‘d visit it, it would feel „oriental“, not western. It was Western Gentleman, who were inspired by the Ancient Hellenes, who influenced the Orthodox Greek rebels of the Ottoman Empire, who were the descendants of Roman citizens, who didn’t convert to Islam, to think of themselves as a continuation of these Ancient Hellenes. Anyway. I already mentioned that despite most towns being relatively small in population, there were some unusually large cities in the middle ages, which had a Roman past. Like Cologne for example. But there were also large Italian cities, which caused the HRE lots of problems, because of their fierce desire for autonomy. They were so much larger than towns north of the Alps. They of course functioned a bit differently. But then again, when you go further back and read up on how he Censors in Rome weren’t working as individuals, but had men following them around, who helped them to apprehend criminals, that doesn’t sound so different than a Bailiff, who also had „men“, who didn’t have their own official title, who helped him to catch criminals.
>>92699367>a right-wing radical like me, who follows obscure twitter accounts with esoteric history knowledge.
>>92699429>Is it really so unbelievable to think that someone has a twitter account and follows right-wing people, who make tweets about history?
>>92699367>He even includes sources and links to studies.Wow that's like crazy. Using historic sources instead of just pulling shit out of your ass? Must be some sort of hidden jutsu. Anyway, can we talk to your brother please?
>>92699452Who are you quoting?
>>92699167>racially diverse>they all just fucking disappeared and had to be reintroduced in modern timesEither that or>using Spain as a baseline, ever
>>92699467Why are you so retarded? lolYou think it doesn’t take effort to type up a 10,000 word post and cite the correct studies and books you are getting your information from? Because it is. Earlier you implied it wouldn’t take a lot of effort. There is also a spectrum. It‘s not a binary. Just because you are not on that level, doesn’t mean it‘s automatically wrong. Anyway. You are not contributing anything positive to he discussion. I bet you are fat and no woman ever told you your sweat smells good and hugged you, despite being drenched in it.>>92699493I was going for something else, then edited my post and forgot to remove the greentext arrows.
>>92699526>You think it doesn’t take effort to type up a 10,000 word post and cite the correct studies and books you are getting your information from? It really isn't if you know what you are talking about. Earlier you posted Andrej Pfeiffer-Perkuhn. You think that guy needs to look everything up just in order to talk about it? No, like many people he has a natural interest in medieval history and therefore garnered experience and knowledge about this subject over the years. He knows his sources and where to quickly find them. That guy hasn't even finished his history degree btw which doesn't seem to stop him from using muh secret obscure historical sources. What was your excuse again? Oh yeah being lazy and retarded. >I bet you are fat and no woman ever told you your sweat smells good and hugged you, despite being drenched in it.Nice projection there pal!
>>92699584What a strange strawman. Anon has demonstrated an excellent ability to just talk about things without needing to look them up or carefully check over his arguments, and has even provided sources earlier in the thread.Instead of this passive aggressive seething, why don't you just point out what post and what words you specifically have taken offense to?
>>92699617>totally not him btw
>>92699584I mean I haven’t looked up anything I brought up in this thread. lolBtw if you actually watched videos of Geschichtsfenster and paid attention, you‘d notice he constantly looks up things and prepares notes for anything he wants to talk about. In most videos he even directly reads from a book, which he is also giving away for free to a random viewer, >>92699617Good point. I don’t feel like anything close to an expert, but compared to normal people I know a lot.>>92699624>no one ever would agree with the anon I am arguing with, he has to be literally the same poster
>>92699658Personally I just fancy myself experienced enough to tell a few facts from falsehoods.But given modern versions of history are so riddled with revisionism and propaganda, and that most of it can't be easily deduced as falsehoods like the old "Othismos" myth has been, I've just accepted my own overall ignorance and view history as just a tool for pushing agendas, or as a source for cool ideas to put in my games.
>>92666963>OP thinks all of medieval Europe was the same
>>92699238Even basic talks about history is far beyond his abilities.
>>92687070>Because actual history is so much more interesting than DnD medieval fantasy stereotypes. Then why don’t you autists play historical fiction instead of constantly crying in and about fantasy settings
>>92701691Seeing how realismfags barely have enough brain power to not eat their keyboards it's very unlikely they play any tabletop game
>>92699367>a right-wing radical like me, who follows obscure twitter accounts with esoteric history knowledge.You should go back there then, twitter rots your brain and makes you unfit for anywhere else, you chose to spend time with the troons and leftists and now that's where you belong
>>92681608>Write an interesting storyGo write a book fag, creating a consistent and believable setting is so the players can enjoy playing a Game
>>92699167Thank you for your image. I like the racially diverse square because until recently Europeans believed in ethnic divisions, and Asians believe in that to this day.
>>92702400No, that's just the background for the novel I'm throwing at them.
>>92702675In fairness, everybody believes in it, even most of Europe does. The ridiculous energy surplus of the last century was just good at making them forget that their own interests will always compete with their neighbors.
>>92698525>No HRE>Unified Italy>Unified Spain>Portugal present>Independent Baltic statesAnon I’m not sure you quite grasp the meaning of medieval
>>92699304>what’s this slide doing in here? There are no maori on /tg/!
>>92687070>So there are dangerous monsters OUTSIDE town? Why do you need the town guards meme INSIDE towns?To keep the Monsters from getting inside town, retard. Why are historyfags so bad at understanding actual realism?
>>92666963>Faggot OP makes a threadJust drink bleach already PLEASE
