I was looking through the dungeon meshi adventurer's bible and I noticed these charts for the characters' stats and how each character had one stat that was unique to them, and it got me thinking about how that would work in an actual game. Imagine, you have your basic stats for most checks, but you have a blank space that you can use for something that your player character specializes in or distinguishes them, and you can use that stats for whatever checks your game master agrees is relevant to what you've put down, and I was also thinking that stats would run on a point buy system so instead of putting down a penalty you could instead pick something your character is especially bad at by not investing in your special stat so you'd have more points for your basics. What do you think, is there any merit to the idea? Has it been done before?
>>92669322I think the idea sounds really neat on paper, but in practice it works kind of like all these "aspects" from all the "narrative" games from Dogs in the Vineyard to Fate. Which is for sure will result in the endless "Mother May I" instead of cool improvised moments supported by the game mechanics.For example, the game I want to run currently, Forbidden Lands, let every PC has a trait that called "Pride". Basically "aspect" about what the character can do so good he is proud of it. A hefty bonus that activates narratively when the context is right. I think you can see in advance how this may be heavily abused or shine once in a blue moon, depending on the player/GM negotiation. So it is limited by the rules to "once per session" use, which makes it boring.I think that for this idea to work, it should have a set of pre-made "unique" attributes. For example, you have regular str, dex, int, cha, and then something like D&D sources of power, "domains" to choose from like Martial, Divine, Shadow, Arcane, Artsy, Primal, Tech, Psionic, Fool etc.
>>92669322Ive experimented with similar concepts in undefined skills, but its best to just let people know what they're buying outright.
>>92669322I can see 'class' stats being a thing like wizards getting an extra mana stat and martial artists getting a 'qi' stat.Stats based of personaltiy and shit could also work, but they NEED to be predefined. Because unlike a manga where stats are only descriptive in a game they are perscriptive.meaning players will use them for stuff and a vague stat definition will make faggots try apply it to everything.
Gonna hijack this thread because I don't wanna start a new one but here's Mithrun's stats, my question is, are there other examples of this "I fear not the guy who practices 10.000 kicks, but the guy who practices one kick 10.000 times" trope, i.e. the guy with a narrow focus on one type of magic, even one single spell to the exclusion of others but with high competency? I suppose a lot of superhero characters fit the mold, now that I think of it
>>92670717A lot of Japanese fantasy has magic-users know one specific kind of magic rather than being diverse specialists.
>>92670717Frieren kind of has that.The main wizards actually have an ample repertoire; but when it comes to fighting, they stick to the basics, with ordinary attack magic and ordinary defense magic, but executed with extreme competence.That is, until the last fight of the season, when shit gets crazy.
>>92670717Part of my darling setting is about how it's a life engulfing feat to study and learn even one act of magic, like a single spell.If you do as well you're set for life in terms of usefulness. Someone who can mutter back together a broken farming implement in the same day as enchanting a bag of torn clothing back together and fine dishes uncracked (such as like the D&D Spell 'Mend') would be an amazing person.
>>92669322>i'm max in my unique stat>>>92670717>my unique stat is also my dump statI mean okay, but why even assign a numerical value to them if they are identical to a trait/flaw system?
>>92674905*Perk/flaw system
>>92669322My first thought was Fate, though that tends to assume all of the stats are tailored in some way.I have seen similar things in more standard RPGs, where you'll have a background specialty that can apply to certain rolls, but having it as a proper stat makes it function more oddly. Like it wouldn't make much sense to let somebody take basketweaving as a dump stat.It could work if you had a list of options for a 5th stat that let people tailor their character's strength or struggle, but in a way that's more defined to make sure it's a hinderance if not invested in. Something like Honor might be an example, where high Honor can reasonably apply as a way to persuade people with honesty and integrity, but low Honor might indicate that nobody really trusts your character.
>>92670717In the system I'm working in I'm trying to address the Paradox of precisely this. Wizards having 2 opposite stereotypes.They are both a swiss army knife and an elemental mono-caster with a theme. DnD does this shit and lets wizards have their cake and eat it too.In my system beyond class selection there's an Ascension mechanic. Using a specific skill or element repeatedly causes you to muteye to become better at it and unlock related skulls while becoming worse at generalist applications.
>>92674465This is what I kinda dislike about the show. It does to magic what boxing did to martial arts.Martials in Frieren are also so weak compared to mages they might as well not exist.
>>92669476>For example, the game I want to run currently, Forbidden Lands, let every PC has a trait that called "Pride". Basically "aspect" about what the character can do so good he is proud of it. A hefty bonus that activates narratively when the context is right. I think you can see in advance how this may be heavily abused or shine once in a blue moon, depending on the player/GM negotiation. So it is limited by the rules to "once per session" use, which makes it boring.Don't forget, you can lose your pride if the roll still fails, and you have to come up with another one. You also get 1 xp for even invoking it for a roll, so it's encouraged, but on top of it being limited use, you can lose that pride, since you can't be proud about it anymore, obviously you aren't as hot as you thought you were.Oh, and it's a d12 in a d6 pools game.It sounds boring, but it ain't. It occupies just about the right amount of space as it should I find.
>>92674905Maybe putting a low score in it gives you more points for other stats? Also, because it's funny.
>>92675603>>92669476Is forbidden lands fun to run? I've read some of the book, but I didn't get a very good idea of whether I'll enjoy it. I've ran Coriolis and Vaesen, and both those games are very weak mechanically but saved by good settings and interesting hooks. Forbidden lands seems much more generic in terms of what it's trying to do, but it also seems like they tried to be a bit crunchier with the rules.
>>92680363I will run FL this Saturday for the first time. Previously I've run Vaesen and I agree with you.
>>92675130>what boxing did to martial artsI'm not sure I understand. You mean performance over variety?
>>92675130It's a manga/anime, not a game. The author can skew the worldbuilding any way she wants.
>>92687483NTA but I don't like it because makes the warrior character feel very irrelevant overall.
>>92687511Were you also upset that Gandalf was more powerful than Pippin?
>>92674915>>92674905They aren't flaws, it's a perk system where you can only put points into 1 perkMax out Pluckiness, you're the pluckiest character, and your other stats are kinda low (which in this case is appropriate). Or you max toughness and put 1 or 2 points in pluckiness, in which case you look tough and turn out to be even tougher. I'm just spitballing but it feels right for an anime-flavored game where each character is various degrees of quirky (but never has more than one quirk).
>>92669322What's this kind of graph called?
>>92691385Radar chart.
>>92691385Sonar chart.
>>92680363Best way to find out is to play/run it. It comes with it's own setting, map, and short adventures, and it's own history and legends. The rules aren't crunchy by comparison to actual crunch games, but the rules are more substantial than lite systems.It's not technically OSR, but it is the kind of game where a character that can cook food is the MVP.
>>92675130I don't remember there being any real martial vs mage fights in the show so I don't know if it's so clear cut, especially since the really tough fighters like Himmel, Eisen, and Stark could do some crazy stuff. Those sort of guys seemed few and far between though, only other warriors who seemed comparable were the elf monk and maybe that old dwarf. Unfortunately, and without knowing what happens in the manga, it just doesn't seem like there will be much focus on them because it's not really the point. Would be fun to play in a game as a dwarf who could run on water and jump off tall cliffs while landing on his head with no injuries though lol
>>92697243might as well use this thread rather than make new one
>>92675130>Martials in Frieren are also so weak compared to mages they might as well not exist.1. The focus of the story isn't on martials. You could say the same about priests. Pretty much the only thing they ever establish that Heiter could do that Freiren couldn't was cure poisons. Freiren can even do healing, just not as well as a priest. The story exists to be about her and mages in general. That's just what it is, so of course they got the spotlight.2. Even with all that said, I still disagree with you when you say "martials may as well not exist". It's established on multiple occasions that to operate effectively, mages need frontliners. Freiren relies on Himmel and Eisen, and she doesn't just pick up Stark because he begs her -- rather they come and insist he join them because they need HIM. Later in the capital, Verbal (seemingly a talented and company commander) wants Stark's help too.3. This is a world where we see martials...>literally cut a mountain in two>leap at least a hundred feet into the air and ignore fall damage>resist poison for superhuman amounts of time>continue fighting with injuries that would have killed a normal personYes, it's true that martials don't get to fly, create magic golems, cast healing, block all rain in an area, summon a field of flowers etc. - but those have never been standard for martials.
>>92669322>Has it been done before?Closest thing I can think of is West End Games Ghostubusters.One of the earlier, more narrative focused games way back in the fucking 1980's. Each stat had a "focus".Eg. the stats areBrainsMusclesMovesCoolAnd each stat has a specific talent, designated by player and GM negotiation, so for example, Egon has brains 7 (physics), , Ray has brains 6 (occult).
Why is tg still discussing the fewd fantasy show like it matters
>>92698322KOT>>92699971Shut up
>>92699971There's an anime airing. It will die down in a few weeks, you can go back to discuss female space marines after.
>>92700028good girl mage
>>92691385Lidar gauge
>>92669322>I was looking through the dungeon meshi adventurer's bibleDumbShit franchise
>>92700697But now you're going to stay in the thread about the topic you dislike
Sentinel Comics does this.
>>92680363I've been on the player side and it has three big issues. >Willpower generationWillpower is the one and only resource that fuels any special abilities you have. And you only get willpower by pushing rolls. So if you want to cast spells you MUST throw out your back lifting a boulder before that to rack up points. Unless you houserule this your players will game the system just so that they can actually use the abilities they bought. >d6 pool but only 6s are hitsThis wouldn't be such an issue if the pools weren't so low to begin with. A DP of 6 should be respectable but that's just a two-thirds chance of scoring over 0 hits. Opposed dice rolls are the swingiest of nightmares and combat vs armored foes is genuinely just a slog. >No passive defenseIf you go up against three goblins you are fucked. That's it. Chad Thundercock got action-economy'd because defending takes actions. ===I think my GM enjoyed the low-power aspect of the system but personally it just felt like I wasn't allowed to be good at anything. Our GM had the experienced scouting party of 8 people we rescued, die on the way back to their city because they failed the consecutive Survival checks that required. Which is literally their job. Either you buy Talents that let you auto-succeed on rolls and your dice pools don't matter, or you stay bad. It should be mentioned that our GM has grown incredibly Mudcore though. He did houserule Willpower to not be stupid, but other than that every session started with nerfs. Coincidentally he switched systems the moment I got an ability that let me auto-succeed on the survival checks.
>>92701018>MudcoreWhat do you mean by that?
>>92700028Oh hey, the illusion-making animal has a bunch of tails like a kitsune
>>92701336And the leaf motif is from the tanuki. Both animals are shapeshifters in folklore and this monster is a mix between the two.
>>92701405I totally missed the tanuki-part, I thought it was some wolf-like critter
>>92701288A penchant for "realistic" medieval settings where the narratives we engage with are low in scale and our characters are just normal people. To be truly Mudcore it would be need to be grimdark as well but he hasn't jumped into that rabbit hole yet. As an example, in our current system your character is weaker than a town guard. There is NO progression or xp to become better at anything. We are not on a great quest to save the kingdom/world. Instead we are low-ranking grunts who are hex-crawling to vague promises of plot hooks and to find guy lost in a mountain and will get auto-killed if our GM rolls "snowstorm" on the %-table. We have absolutely zero narrative power, zero martial power, and magic isn't available to us nor will it ever be. I humored his attempt to get us to try playing what I call "medieval peasant simulator" for a few sessions but I only forced myself to have fun despite the system.
>>92701018FL softfan here.>d6 pool issueIt's a bit tough at the start. Armor is a BIG DEAL in FL, to the point that the main villain faction is the only force that has consistently heavily armored foes.Fights can't always be won, best avoided until you have know you can win, and a couple of combat classes have ways to pump their damage really high, despite armor.The action eco actually comes in really important here>no passive defenseCharacters who can fight are noteworthy as being able to draw both of their weapon, move up, and attack three times, while being able to parry as many times as they want, all in the same round, compared to the noncombat character, who can only draw their bow and ready an arrow for their entire turn.I kind of like that, though. Being able to throw out 3 attacks and still being able to defend yourself makes that character a very dangerous combatant; a Longsword deals 2 damage on a single 6, meaning that three normal hits is enough to kill ANY humanoid. This isn't counting armor, but it also isn't counting extra 6s or bonus damage.>WillpowerThe only thing I could say is genuinely iffy about this game.>Unless you houserule this your players will game the system just so that they can actually use the abilities they bought.Unfortunately, the willpower based skills are designed specifically around how willpower is gained. Their relative power and utility is massive, so any homebrew to willpower will require a homebrew of the abilities that use it as well.It's doubly unfortunate, because the abilities themselves are fun to use, and burning willpower to use them feels right, it's just that willpower doesn't make much sense. It's like a metacurrency that isn't one.
>>92680611P.S. The game is ok, but it desperately needs home rules for some systems to work smoothly. For example, getting and spending XP is busted, but I knew it from Vaesen already. Just give your players 1 advancement per session: skill, spell, or talent, and skill-wall some talents. Also, I almost immediately begun to require one Survival roll for a daytime/nighttime instead of one roll per hex. This way you can manage hunting and moving together, and seasons start to make more sense. Or using torch-roll per dungeon level. Or multiply food by cooking instead of preserving it. Or counting similar small items in bags and pockets. Or giving free coup de graces if the situation is appropriate. A lot of stuff, honestly. I expected rules to be a little better in that regard.And if you want to set stakes and from the plot you need to work with players dark secrets and prides to make a narrative beyond hex/dungeon crawl, not to say that you absolutely should make more narrative driven "random" encounters and mishaps than just a default random tables of the game. They may run out too fast and still don't provide you with any interesting hooks and ideas.However, some of my players were surprised that the story acknowledge the backgrounds of their characters and slowly adjust to them on the fly. Maybe in modern D&D games, GMs don't run things like that at all.Oh, and official lore and setting look boring. I force myself to read it from beginning to the end one day, but for now I rolled my eyes more than once while reading the master manual.>>92701018>No passive defenseBut, Anon, armor is a passive defense.> Opposed dice rolls are the swingiest of nightmares and combat vs armored foes is genuinely just a slog.I think that the idea behind it is that warriors of the party should use their talents to bypass armor.
>>92702657>Characters who can fight are noteworthy as being able to draw both of their weapon, move up, and attack three times, while being able to parry as many times as they want, all in the same round, compared to the noncombat character, who can only draw their bow and ready an arrow for their entire turn.Huh, hm. Yaknow, my experience with the system was probably tainted by the fact that we didn't really get XP. I recognize the talents you're talking about but there was simply no way in hell that anyone managed to afford that. Our GM had this godawful XP table which resulted in us getting like 1-2 XP per 5-hour session. Your description of a noncombat character is literally what our combat characters looked like. >>92702865>I think that the idea behind it is that warriors of the party should use their talents to bypass armor.But what if your GM saw you use Path of the Arrow to ignore the armor of their monster exactly once, and then nerfed it so that you must decide to spend willpower BEFORE attacking? I'm starting to realize that my grievances with the system might not be with the system after all...
>>92702954> But what if your GM saw you use Path of the Arrow to ignore the armor of their monster exactly once, and then nerfed it so that you must decide to spend willpower BEFORE attacking?Well, that doesn't sound like a fair home rule.
>>92705824
>>92706076I ship them
>>92669322>that you can use for something that your player character specializes in or distinguishes themsounds gay
>>92702865>Or giving free coup de graces if the situation is appropriateCharacters need to *fail* an empathy roll for a reason, and it costs willpower and deals 1 point of empathy damage just trying. The reasoning is simply, really.Unless you're a fucking monsters, knowingly killing someone who's unable to fight back and clearly helpless is nearly impossible. People just can't bring themselves to do it.It's great, and I love that awareness in the design.>Or counting similar small items in bags and pocketsI'm not sure what you mean by this, but 'tiny' items do not typically count towards encumbrance at all, so you can have a bunch of them on your person.>Or multiply food by cooking instead of preserving it.Having it be a die means that it could potentially last a lot longer than just having 4 units of food. Having a d12 means you likely don't have to worry about food for a while, whereas having 4 food means you'll be out of food by the time you get to the site. Math, see.Two mistakes some GMs/players may make, because it's a european book:>Meters, not feet.>"A Turn" is 15 minutes. Combat isn't "Turn" based, even though it is taken in turns. The word "Turn" is used in an unusual way, because Sweedes.>>92702954>Our GM had this godawful XP table which resulted in us getting like 1-2 XP per 5-hour session.The game does have that table if it's the one I'm thinking about.>1 for just showing up and playing>1 for travelling through at least one new hex for the first time in a session>1 for finding an adventure site (even if you didn't go into it)>1 for finding treasure worth at least 1gp>1 for slaying a monster>1 for an extrordinary action>1 for risking your life for another PC>1 for putting your pride on the line>1 for suffering from your dark secret>1 for building a function of your stronghold3xp a session is trivially easy to get, and a new level 1 talent is exactly that. 4 to 5 exp a session should be doable fairly regularly.
>>92701018Oh, another weird thing I feel like I want to ask more about,>Our GM had the experienced scouting party of 8 people we rescued, die on the way back to their city because they failed the consecutive Survival checks that required. Which is literally their job.That is astronomically unlucky for one thing, but why were survival rolls being made?You don't need a pathfinder to hike through any hexes you've already passed through, so no need to roll survival to lead the way if you were going back the way you came.Food and water? Sure, but how does a party plus 8 NPCs somehow not find food or water? Reminder that a *single* 6 restores [ALL] of the group's water supply to a d12. Thinking about it, that's even more astronomically unlucky.Food, meanwhile, isn't as easy to refil, but it takes *weeks* to die of starvation.I can probably understand some poor sods going hungry, but thirsty? When there are 8+ survivalists in the group?
>>92711343>The game does have that table if it's the one I'm thinking about.Unfortunately it's not. Our table was full of thing that were "statistically unlikely" and/or dependent on our GM actually including them in the sessions. We had no way of proactively getting XP. And as I'm remembering more about these sessions, I'm fairly sure he said you could only get the XP reward ONCE per achievement. The one exception was the 1 XP for attending a session. So you crossed off the easy achievements early on and then basically didn't progress. Not a single one of us ever bought/improved a skill because we couldn't afford it. And if you wanted a Talent you needed to find a specific trainer who had it. I'm retracting my non-willpower complaints with the system. The issue was clearly that my GM just didn't allow us to actually progress our characters because he wanted Mudcore. The two things I remember most vividly is us having to roll 3 survival rolls per day when hexploring (lead the way, set up camp, hunting), and our GM knee-jerk banning anything that wasn't dogshit. I at least enjoyed my mounted dwarven rockthrower until he wasn't allowed to exist.>>92711512>That is astronomically unlucky for one thing, but why were survival rolls being made?I'm guessing it's the set up camp roll which you do once every day. And even if they're 8 only one person gets to set up camp (according to my GM) while aiding only gives +dice up to skill rating (according to my GM). So the expert survivalist likely only had a 7-9 DP and failed sooner or later. You took exposure dmg without a camp right? And he probably rolled on his dumb % weather and random encounter table for them as well.
>>92711805The two things I remember most vividly is us having to roll 3 survival rolls per day when hexploring (lead the way, set up camp, hunting), and our GM knee-jerk banning anything that wasn't dogshit.All three of those survival rolls are legit, but failing a make camp roll usually isn't a straight up failure to set any sort of camp, and is often 'you set up camp fine, but something unexpected happens'.Hunting requires more gear than foraging, but has better yield than foraging. It has higher risks, too, of course, food can fight back. The safer option is picking berries and grass like a hippie.>I'm guessing it's the set up camp roll... You took exposure dmg without a camp right? And he probably rolled on his dumb % weather and random encounter table for them as well.Most of the camp failure rolls are irritants, and most don't stop you sleeping. Camp is still made, but something goes wrong. This can be anything from ants or lice, or a piece of gear getting broken, to the campfire flaring up and spreading suddenly or sudden hard rain drenching the camp and dousing it's fire, prompting an exposure roll.Cold can be deadly. Cold is removed by getting warm, say, around another campfire, so you re-make camp at the next quarter day and hope the fire doesn't go out again.Make Camp is a single roll form one PC, but up to three other characters can help, +1 each for a total of +3 from the help. The Quartermaster talent gives bonuses to both making camp, and at higher ranks, gives PCs keeping watch over the campsite you made a +2 bonus, and a d8 die in addition to your d6 pool to make camp.
>>92712193Oh, another thing about TalentsBecause Talents and Skills are always reliable (compared to Main Attributes, which can take damage), Young characters are weaker early on, because they start with less of them, while Old characters can have a fully ranked talent out of the gate, making them a reliable specialist from session one.Talents like Chef, Herbalist, Pathfinder, and Tailor are good, whereas in a game like DnD, they would be side bits that are just fluff, and not that important.Being able to preserve food so that it lasts potentially much longer is very good in a hexcrawl survival game. Being good at foraging for that raw food in the first place is also really important. Being able to find the right trail in a long abandoned land is super important, and being able to make and mend furs for the cold is very handy, as well as it being a trade you can make money from. Buying wool is cheaper than buying bandages, blankets, and backpacks, so it's a save on money, and can make new gear or even tents if they only stuff gets broken, lost, or destroyed due to encounters.It's entirely reasonable to have a character dedicated to upkeep, with little to no combat ability, and still be a valuable member of a team.
>>92700028Marcielle is by far not my favorite characterbut BY GODshe knows how to play in a fantasy game.
>>92691385loran meter
>>92669322I did a shortened translation of the 90s French game "Scales", which is urban fantasy with dragons and otherkins.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1p2Tux5Hr853LyQT2eqZDGmbRigwhuuzO6QbVBX5_EBI/In this system, you have six abilities (Strength, Endurance, Will, Perception, Agility and Dexterity) but it's explicitly said that you can replace them with new ones.For example, a character who plays a lot on its charm could have "beauty" as an ability.By default, all abilities are level of 0 (average human), so it's no problem at all.
>>92669322>One unique thingThe problem with leaving stat creation open to players is always>What if a player picks "international superspy" as his one unique stat >While another in the team picks "growing turnip"It's not even necessarily done in bad faith by the player, as a way to break or powergame. Maybe the two players just have a different idea of what can be possible in the game.It's not an irredeemable flaw, but it's something to keep in mind.Having a list of "unique ability" to choose from can solve this issue however.Also, see My One Unique Thing from 13th Age.
>>92711343> It's great, and I love that awareness in the design.It is fun, but by RAW, it may really limit the role-play. This way, the evil PC is obligated to take a Heartless talent. The same goes for assassins and alike. You are a rogue that on the path to murder people for money, but you can't *really* kill your target by RAW if you don't have a WP, or you've got boxcars on your 2D Empathy roll. It is not as bad as with PAIN effect, but still.It also makes it hard to judge if you can kill somebody in mortal combat by accident. Every enemy need to be treated like he is K.O.-ed like in some computer game like Gothic 1-2.You want the party to go into the dungeon of bandit boblins and get some gold? Oh, you can use these small not-goblins from the master manual, since goblins are a sentient race and you will feel bad for killing them.Well, NO. I will use fucking goblins. I will still use the rule, but I will use it thinking about the context.> I'm not sure what you mean by this, but 'tiny' items do not typically count towards encumbrance at all, so you can have a bunch of them on your person.For example, throwing knifes. By RAW, you may say that a single throwing knife should occupy half a row. The same goes for the gathered raw materials.
