>>93110483
>TQ
I’m honestly a big fan of the Ministry change; the Settites really needed a rebrand. Hecata took me some convincing, but i’m generally fine with the concept now. They should’ve been more clear on how it exists because all the younger Giovanni and the other clans of death that joined it killed all the elder Giovanni. That little tidbit really helps explain why the fuck the Giovanni and the Harbingers are working together

>>93110483
>What is your opinion on name changes for the Clans, Tribes, and Traditions?
Most of them don't really bother me, as iconic as they have grown to be they are still pretty shit.

>TQ
>vampire clans
Setite to Ministry is stupid. Clanbook already explained you don't need to be 100% egyptian to do your Cult.
Assamite to Banu Haqim is stupid. The arab name is only for Ashirra sect. Since Revised they adopted "Children of Haqim" as a more commom name.
Giovanni+Other Bloodlines as Hecata is only good if you accept the Hecata is a whole new Sect instead of a new Clan.

>werewolf tribes
All changes were stupid. It's the prime example why people need to remember is just a fiction of work and it's not our world. It's an Alternative History setting. Let world-based cultures be stupid sometimes. And, for god's sake, read a goddamn book if you want more "realism" in your game. The books itselves already told people to do that, but people seemed not to be interested at all.

>mage traditions
It's okay to me since majority of those names were the previous names they adopted in the beggining.
Sons of Ether to Society of Ether is okay.
Virtual Adepts to Mercurial Elite is stupid.

>>93110483
I generally find it pointless, especially when you still have nonsense names like Brujah running around completely unchanged. "The Ministry" is painfully bland, I genuinely prefer Followers of Set because it conveys the fun stuff up-front. Evil egyptian shit.

Honestly it wouldn't be necessary at all if people remembered Clans have multiple names already besides calling Nossies "sewer rat". Call Tzimisce Fiends, Malkavians Lunatics, and Toreador The Clan of the Rose.

>>93110674
You think people shorten Children of Haqim to Haqimites? I kinda like that term.

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>JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Stands
>Bleach's Zanpakuto
>Death Note's Shinigami
Why does Japanese media have such accurate representations of how Ascension's Avatars work?

>>93110483
>TQ
Ministry is a silly change that makes the clan sound less interesting but I understand the reasoning. Assamite to Banu Haqim is objectively lame, I don't object to playing up the "Assamite is a term that they don't use for themselves and more progressive kindred avoid it" angle but I think it could've been handled better. And I don't acknowledge the Hecata as a name change, because the clans and bloodlines that make it up still exist as bloodlines within it. That being said, I don't like the "we need to make all the necromancy bloodlines one clan" reason for it and think it's reflective of a design flaw within V5.
I'm not familiar enough with the other splats to say anything on those.

>>93110483
>Clans
Banu Haqim is ok as an endonym but not an exonym. Hecata was fucking retard
>Tribes
All retarded
>Traditions
Not terrible as alternate names, more upset about how faggy every Tradition ended up in m20

I feel like I remember reading something about Nosferatu warrens where they somehow create pools of bubbling blood that they use to feed. Is that real or did I make it up?

>>93111218
Spawning pools?

>>93111303
Thats probably what i’m thinking of, its just their use that I mixed up.

>>93110535
> should have been more clear

I mean, it is clear if you actually bother to read the book in which they're introduced instead of regurgitating and relying the 4chan and reddit crying.

>>93110818
It's all gnosticism, so Satyros and company are drawing from the same psycho mysticism.

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3 Zeal Hunter versus himself with 3 derangements, 10 Zeal, 5 Vision at the end of the campaign

>>93107751
>If you want something like you envision, ST yourself
Yeah that's probably about right, I want my newbie players to forget the worldwide conspiracies and focus on how fucked up it is that a guy's coming out of the shadows or finding out the NPC they just spoke to has been dead for a couple weeks
>>93111436
I could keep with V20 but that way I don't get muh superior touchstone mechanics or buffed disciplines like Animalism without having to do a ton of translation work.

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>>93110483
So I might as well ask because everytime I look at spalts and the lore bits, things get confusing.

What is the difference between the demons in games like VtM/MtA/WtA and DtF? Because especially when comparing the demonic entities in VtM who work with the Baali, they feel and sound different from the ones that are in DtF that escaped from the abyss. What gives?

>>93112102
>The entities that the Baali work with AREN’T demons, they’re something worse
>Some demons escaped being imprisoned, and fled to Earth. These are known as the Earthbound
>Earthbound are the demons that Infernalists deal with and “demonic” cults worship
>As for Mage, Choristers acknowledge demons as canonical, rest of the Traditions view them as spirit creatures, some going as far saying they are just entities that think they’re demon because everyone thinks what they are (i.e. they are psychosomatic creatures playing roles they are supposed to, but they aren’t demons because there is no God, per se)
>Then there are the DtF Fallen, basically the “Fallen Angel” demons

>>93112102
>What is the difference between the demons in games like VtM/MtA/WtA and DtF?
the vtm demons are more stereotypical fire and brimstone ones because they needed those for reasons.
Werewolf has a lot of animistic bullshit and the spirits of death and destruction are demons for all practical purposes.
Mage has all those guys and some other weird creatures in the astral realms that are also called demons for whatever reason.
DTF has young adult fallen angels with weird powers.

>>93112051
Setting themes and moods are essential. If you can't sit down and talk to your players about it or doing a good summary on what the game is gonna be, then it's bound to happen things like Player A wanting a tragic romance earthly story, Player B wanting a heavy high status and conspirancy 4D chess, and Player C wanting a pulp powerfantasy.
Even with old players you can get things right. Talking is essential, no matter which game.

>>93112102
most demons in wod are either demonics plasmics beings from the underworld formed by our and dead people's thoughts of demons
>https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Angelic_and_Demonic
or Banes spirits of entropy
>https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Bane_(WTA)

the Decani that the baali are sometimes working with or against are 36 plague demons who are apperntly the dream of a neverborn which would make them the same kind of demon the nephanti from mage are dealing with most of the time, but later dav books and especially devil's due also shows them (baali) dealing (trying to enslave) a lot with earthbound aka greater dtf demons too

dtf are fallen angels that need to harvest faith from mortals to use their powers and they often do that with the classic devil pact or a infernal cult, smaller and weaker angels fit into a human body, but stronger ones can only be bound to a place or item hench earthbound those however have no humanity to balance out the corruption of the abyss so they are some of the most evil beings in wod

then there are also the yama kings of the eastern setting, but honestly i only know they exist

>>93112682
>then there are also the yama kings of the eastern setting, but honestly i only know they exist
They are ''just'' very powerful Banes.

>Vampires only need 1 discipline to make an anime waifus real
>Mages need like 7 spheres to make an anime waifu real, and even then reality still wants to kill said Mage
Who’s the superior splat again?

>>93111479
>10 Zeal
How is that dude not dead?

>>93112861
>How is that dude not dead?
He died inside so he could live outside.

>>93112834
that's kinda lame, but also fair enough

what i am also confused about is well: during time of judgment humanity just nukes the yama kings with a kinda funny text about how the yama king and kuei-jin didn't notice the level grind of humanity, but the evil!saulot personality aka the warlord thinks that becoming one of them will allow him to become a greater monster than even caine and we know normal nukes wouldn't even have worked against ravnos

so did he buy into another splat's hype and got fooled? is evil!saulot just a weeb who thinks everything from asia is better?

>>93112882
>so did he buy into another splat's hype and got fooled? is evil!saulot just a weeb who thinks everything from asia is better?
Pretty much, he thought their powers were cool so he stole what he could from them. The result were mixed.

I don't understand hecata. As I read it, it sounds more of new sect instead of clan, so why is it treated as clan?
And how the fuck it exists in first place when harbinger of skulls/Cappadocians absolutely hate Giovanni, and nagaraja and that voodoo zombie clan are not related with harbringers/Giovanni at all?

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>This spoiled suicidal 17 y/o brat was somehow appointed Justicar.
those Malkavians gotta be mad

>>93113163
>I don't understand hecata. As I read it, it sounds more of new sect instead of clan, so why is it treated as clan?
same reason salubri are a clan again because every player option in v5 needs to be a "clan"

>And how the fuck it exists in first place when harbinger of skulls/Cappadocians absolutely hate Giovanni, and nagaraja and that voodoo zombie clan are not related with harbringers/Giovanni at all?

please ignore it because please -dawkins
jokes aside they been designed for onyx's paths canceled v4 (and hopefully they would have made more sense there...) and foreshadowed in v20 and dav20, but only as a capapdocian/giovanni/samedi reunion so i guess they thrown the nagaraja in because otherwise these guys would not have made it to v5 at all ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ does it make sense? no and i never seen a nagaraja hecata either as npc or pc so it was kind of a meaningless change

***unpopular opinion/I am a retard***
I think H5 is perfectly playable corebook. It is Hunters Hunted 3 imo. Lack of options and ability to play as org is minor if you have hunters hunted 2, v5 second inquisition, or previous hunter related books. Hell you can use online wiki to find out everything you need to come up with playable org.
>Why should I play H5 when I have HH2?
H5 is quicker and easier to teach to new group. It is also the one that updated to v5 format. Stuff between two are easy to convert between h5 and HH2 so h5 can be tutorial going back into HH2 game
>Why play h5 when HtV is vastly superior game?
H5 has stronger vibe of 'things are scary and desperate' as you barely have tricks or stuff that can give you edge (HtV tier 1 have powerful riding willpower mechanic so that way less risk and more rewards compared to rolling with desperation) and game rules are more smooth. Otherwise yeah, play HtV as it has bigger scope that would require ST imagination and work for h5
***End of unpopular opinion/mental retardation***

>>93113220
Eh, you do you. I just don't see the appeal given the other options.

>>93113333
Appeal to me that h5 is basically hunters hunted 3. Every game in v5 system was gutted and slimmed. Ergo barebone options in h5

>>93113183
That's hot. Didn't know Malkavians were a Clan of culture.

There's only ONE Tribe I respect, and that's the Shadow Lords. The rest of the Tribes can suck it.

>>93113415
and?

>>93113415
yeah the society of nidhogg did nothing wrong

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>>93113183
Real gem of spoiler season is this little thing, bastard child of (pre-nerf) Parity Shift and Reckless Agitation - it will fit nicely into any politics with Inner Circle vampires and I'm sure somebody's gonna try to build whole new deck around it called Camarilla Fisting.

>>93113183
She was 246 when appointed Justicar.

>>93113163
Well, to be fair pretty much every vampire hates others, so putting Cappadocian and Giovanni conflict aside is only a bit harder than normal vampire relations.
>>93113613
So practically a neonate, right? t. Elder

>>93113183
>mark kelly doing same generic buildings background he did on the last two or three arts
>losing her tomboyish fashion sense of style
>now is just a generic woman
0/10

>>93113163
>And how the fuck it exists in first place when harbinger of skulls/Cappadocians absolutely hate Giovanni, and nagaraja and that voodoo zombie clan are not related with harbringers/Giovanni at all?
Allegedly, the Hecata Giovanni are also the Giovanni thay hate the Giovanni, i.e. younger vampires that got sick of working for their elders and did an internal revolution involving a lot of familycide

In CofD, if you're using a cross splat NPC do you need to know all their rules and build them using the appropriate book? Or can I have a Werewolf work roughly as presented by their lore (assuming the PCs won't know the intricacies) using Dread Powers instead? I've never used them before so I don't know how flexible they'd be.

>>93115123
You can use both, hunter 1e had books for it building them with dread powers.

>>93115178
Excellent. Similar vein, how many Werewolves are there approximately in a pack? I know they typically have support-structures, wolf-blooded and the like that follow them loosely about but I can't find a typical measure of Werewolves specifically. They gather to Hunt, but when I hear "a pack", I think a dozen plus. And that's just too many Werewolves, but would it be weird if there were 2 or 3 travelling together?

>TQ
Something V5 attempts timidly that I like is building on the idea that clans have /several/ names; endonym/exonym as anon noted, but also epochal/generational variations as well as geographical ones.
This makes sense and when well used adds density to the world, but meets resistance from even players that like the idea for purely conventional reasons relating to *our* use of the clan nomenclature as game terms.
Weirdly, while I'm not convinced by "The Ministry", I really love the French translation ("Le Sacerdoce").
Banu Haqim works as an alterntive to Assamites. I don't have a strong opinion for or agaisnt it.
Hecata I don't know what to make of. It's not perfectly gratuitous given the clan history, but it also feels to be holding out by a /very/ thin thread.

>>93113163
>I don't understand hecata. As I read it, it sounds more of new sect instead of clan, so why is it treated as clan?
The Nagaraja notwithstanding (which can be explained/handwaved), it's a a gathering of all the bloodlines belonging to a familly branch/sharing the same ancestry.
That's the very definition of a clan.

>>93115070
>>93113163
I really like the idea of the clan that - thanks to a lot writer fiat - was overtaken by a younger generation only to be betrayed again by its young. Execution might be lacking (writer fiat strikes again), but that's something I definitely want to work with in the Vampire setting.

>>93115297
>how many Werewolves are there approximately in a pack?
3 to 6 werewolves is the average but the upper limit would be something like 12 for permanent packs.
If you just want to pad out their numbers you could add wolf blooded and spirits.

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My problem with the Ministry is that Set is the central pillar of the Followers of Set. It is why they recruit other supernatural's and even mortals into their clan.

Sure, they were shit enough so that Set basically killed them all so that they can join him in one of ToJ but at least they were serving Set in there. This "rebranding" might as well cause Set to eat them.

So really, for a clan that regularly sacrifices their powerful members so that they can serve Set, see image, rebranding as the Ministry sounds stupid since it might as well be insult to their god.

>>93115447
3 it is, appreciate the response anon. They'll be the nuclear option if the PCs don't work to contain this Spirit.

>>93115679
have a good game.

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>>93115297
Depends but at least 3 and that's bare minimum. Modern times are where Garou has the lowest numbers but they are still numerous.

Though at their peak, when the first War of Rage was going on and Werewolves were fighting every other shapeshifter out there, they fielded War Packs of 8, 12, 16 and even 20. And they did it against every other race.

>>93115731
Thanks anon, I got some good help a few threads ago building the Spirit as a background threat alongside the main plot. A further question if you don't mind.

Both my and my players exposure to Werewolves is VtMBloodlines and the observatory mission. I understand Woofs in Forsaken are a bit weaker than in Apocalypse, but building one using the Monster rules in Vigil, I feel it'd need to have at least 6 points of Dread Powers, putting it at Potency 3. Animal Shift, Dread Attack (two levels), Madness and Terror, Predator's Sense and Regeneration. The book presents an Amarok as a Werewolf-adjacent creature (or at least, not an Urathra?)

Is it a fair assumption to say that creatures of equal Potency can square off relatively equal? The Spirit is only Rank 3 currently but if it's nourished and fed by cocaine, methamphetamines and some violence it may grow further. Likewise, if the PCs get in the Werewolves way, I realise this isn't some Challenge Rating system, but codifying it by numbers feels like it ought to lend some level of equivalency y'know?

>>93115678
Sincere question, why is this a Discipline instead of a ritual? It isn't useful even for npcs.

>>93115951
I think it is setite sorcery

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>>93115951
Luckily they fixed that and made it a ritual in DAV20, with a much better power for Serpentis 5. Though I guess how useful the servant is depends on what exactly it is and how creative you can get.

>>93116008
>power akin to a ritual.
I think it is 2 different disciplines in some editions (mummify and heart of darkness)

>>93115917
>Is it a fair assumption to say that creatures of equal Potency can square off relatively equal?
I believe so but I am not that familiar with the horror rules and how they compare to spirits and the like.

>>93115334
Clans have always had many nicknames though.

>>93115917
>I understand Woofs in Forsaken are a bit weaker than in Apocalypse,

It's hard to 1 for 1 compare them due to changes in the core system. 1e forsaken were really weak but 2e is a different story. There's an interesting difference between them. Apoc wolves were dangerous in a fight because they all got free aggravated damage and multiple attacks, which was the meta on how to kill in oWoD. However unlike what Bloodlines suggests they aren't nigh-immune to conventional attacks at all. Forsaken don't have the offense but multi-attack and aggravated damage are much rarer in nWoD in general. Forsaken on the other hand are, in warform especially ungodly tanky instead. They also have a lot more reasons to fight in multiple forms, and have some nice teamwork options.

Potency can ballpark power for horrors, but not all powers are created equally. Some will be better in a fight others have more utility.

>>93116474
>They also have a lot more reasons to fight in multiple forms
That's mostly because each form has a power. Urhan can interrupt actions for 1 Essence or Dalu can intimidate lesser foes.

i want to get HtV 2nd ed book. buti want to have 2nd book to flesh out setting ideas/playable options. what other splatbook you would recommend and why?

>>93116026
Yes, serpentis is a weird discipline in general.

In the player guide.
1,2 and 4 dots were snake protean.
3 and 5 dots were a single use Egyptian themed rituals only useful for the ST.
6+ was Presence 2.0 mixed a bit with dominate.

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so they knew serpentis was shit? to the point where they even offer two alternative disciplines for the clan to learn instead

so why did they never fix it?

>>93117151
>so why did they never fix it?
Because they shot their foot when they first created Setites.

They were a lazily written clan intended only for exotic and mysterious NPCs, but when it inevitably had to be offered as a playable option, they had to build upon the rotten foundation that they had, "Egyptian snake cult"

>>93117220
They retconned nearly the entire Giovanni clan once, the Assamites at least twice, and the Salubri too so They could have changed the setites if they wanted to, but given that they still wrote actual horrific mythology-based Setite stuff during Revised, I assume they they didn't knew, but now i have to assume they didn't care.

>>93117061
>>93117151
>>93117220
I enjoy v5 in part due to they're attempt to fix discipline bloat by streamlining various exotic disciplines into generic disciplines

>>93117151
They tried, Skin of the Adder and/or Serpent's Flesh replaced Mummify.

And they replaced the 6+ powers.

>Eyes of the serpent can emulate Presence.
Did the writers forget that they also have Presence in clan?

>>93115829
He was clearly talking about Forsaken werewolves do to it being CofD and him mentioning wolf-blooded.

>>93117061
By splats do you mean other full supernaturals? I'd recommend Requiem and Forsaken. The former are probably the best balanced splat in nWoD and the latter has a lot of additional types of antagonists for a Hunter game.

>>93117285
>Did the writers forget that they also have Presence in clan?
no they mention it the page before, it's the first discipline they mention in the pic

>Conveniently, the Setites’ list of Clan Disciplines includes the two that are most useful for playing God. Presence supplies awe, terror and a supernatural call.

>>93117267
>I enjoy v5 in part due to they're attempt to fix discipline bloat by streamlining various exotic disciplines into generic disciplines
That wasn't wrong. There really is no point in having 3 fucking shapeshifting Disciplines. The problem was desperately trying to maintain all the original disciplines as amalgams.

And also mixing Obtenebration and Necromancy, that was bad.

V6 ought to either do a better job, or just give each clan a unique Discipline a la Requiem,

>>93115917
Apocalypse werewolves have easy access to aggravated damage and multi-attacking (which doesn't really exist in CofD 2e for the most part), but Forsaken regenerate at an absolutely insane rate in Garou. They also in general have stronger Gifts. Those Dread Powers seem like good choices, but you might want to sprinkle in one or two weirder unique Dread Powers per werewolf to represent Gifts.

>>93117266
They retconed them a bit in dark ages 20th, and revised moved elder serpentis away from being Presence 2.0.

>>93117328
>V6 ought to either do a better job, or just give each clan a unique Discipline a la Requiem,
Funnily enough, only 4 clans don't have one.

>>93117377
>Funnily enough, only 4 clans don't have one.
Coincidentally, four of the seven original clans
Technically five since Malks originally didn't have Dementation

Almost as if 13 clans is too many and some of them were built around their cool powers, not the other way around...

>>93117389
>Coincidentally, four of the seven original clans
>Technically five since Malks originally didn't have Dementation
I noticed it.

>Almost as if 13 clans is too many and some of them were built around their cool powers, not the other way around
There is also the fallen clans and all those bloodlines, and even the original 7 had redundancy with the toreador and brujah.

>>93117298
Yeah. Thanks. But do you think I need another book or HtV monster generation is adequate to create monsters, vampires etc?

>>93117549
Vigil was designed with the ability to make any kind of monster you want and have it be good enough for an NPC. It also means you don't have to be beholden to how they are in their official splats. If you want to run a game where like half the enemies are vampires then maybe pick up Requiem but otherwise you only need Vigil, everything else is for going above and beyond.

If you want more info the Mega has 1e books that have more rules for undead, werewolves, witches and more. 1e stuff can be used in 2e with only a bit of elbow grease.

>>93117619
Thanks for tip!

>>93110483
Unironically Twilight have coolest vampires and lore than nuWoD

>>93117745
New WoD or 5WoD? Despite the early overcorrection, NWoD has some nice lore.

>>93117151
>so why did they never fix it?
Because White Wolf was kind of retarded in that regard. I guess no one gave enough of a shit about the snakes to bother remaking their discipline.

>>93117841
It was remaked quite a bit, mainly the elder powers.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Serpentis#endnote_lvl1

>>93117267
Why? Revised/V20 had just the right amount of powers for it to be easy to get into without being too simple and boring.

>>93117389
>Almost as if 13 clans is too many and some of them were built around their cool powers, not the other way around...

Why is it a problem?

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>>93112213
>The entities that the Baali work with AREN’T demons, they’re something worse

>Earthbound are the demons that Infernalists deal with and “demonic” cults worship

See that's what is confusing me because I was under the impression that the Baali were infernalists so they were worshipping the earthbound, i know there is the whole thing with the neverborn, and decani as >>93112682 pointed out, but I assumed that decani and the neverborn were related to the earthbound, and they were all under the concept of infernalism. Is this just white wolf having spread out lore across many gamelines, and not cross referencing?

Unrelated, but is the abyss that clan lasombra access the same abyss from DtF?

It feels like we have these "x" clan is dumb actually we should completely overhaul it on a fundamental level discussion on a bi-weekly basis, so I'll just chip in briefly with my two cents.

Personally I have never had a problem with one note gimmick clans. I just accept them for what they are. Some clans are archetypal, and very good at it. Those are generally my favorite as well, but I don't think we should try to redeem the gimmick ones. For example, what's wrong with a bunch of evil snake cultists running around? It's fine, you can have shithead villains. I think a lot of the problems in play are downwind from people viewing Clan the same way you view a class in D&D. If it is a clan, it must be playable in any game. You can even have an interesting Setite PC in the context of them being an evil snake cult, your options are just more limited. I also think there's a weird need for the clans to seem "on par", so you can't have a "small" clan that exists in the peripheries. I just don't see the need. Let there be an evil snake cult run by vampires.

Really and this is maybe where it gets skub but I think the Assamites are the best example of trying to "redeem" a dumb gimmick clan creating something worse. So rather than a weird blood cult of murder muslims that live out in a fortress somewhere, they were slowly turned into three clans wearing an overcoat with their focus spread so thin that really all that was left was that they're "muslim". So they're just crammed into anything remotely middle eastern, stepping on the toes of other clans who could have more interesting interactions with that region of the world. Honestly, I would rather take the diablerie murder cult at this point, because that's not something that has to take a big role in undead politics and can instead be used whenever you need a fucked up vampire assassin who does blood hookah and calls everyone else "ya hmar".

>>93117899
>It was remaked quite a bit, mainly the elder powers.
Just like every other niche discipline, but yeah it still is pretty shit because of the premise.
>>93117926
>Unrelated, but is the abyss that clan lasombra access the same abyss from DtF?
to the best of my knowledge, yes but it is a specific sub realm or something along those lines.

>>93117959
>Assassin’s Creed can diversify the Hassans throughout the world and it’s okay
>Assamites try to diversify the Judges throughout the world and suddenly that’s bad
Hmmm…

>with their focus spread so thin that really all that was left was that they're "muslim"
And this just proves you didn’t read the books. Revised does away with that stereotype by having Ur Shulgi forcibly separate Clan from religion.

>>93118018
>Just like every other niche discipline, but yeah it still is pretty shit because of the premise.
The only real change for PCs is the 4 dot being usable.
The discipline doesn't need social aspects because the setites already have Presence for it, and Obfuscate covers sneaking around, so serpentis needs to be combat/survival based

>>93110818
>JoJo's Bizarre Adventure's Stands
You mean that one could easily run a jojo game in Mage the Ascension?

>>93116474
>>93116956
That sounds pretty cool, but I think I'd just keep it narrative for now. If they're full-Wolf then the PCs may just be aware of a wolf (or not if it's hiding/hunting), and for either of the inbetween forms I'd probably just treat them as transitory.
>>93117345
Honestly I was completely unaware they had powers/gifts from my surface level knowledge of them. I'll probably give each one something distinct but cheap to help give them a bit of flavour and identity.
>>93116163
Fair enough, they use the same ranking system so I figured it'd be interchangeable but probably not.

>>93117926
>Unrelated, but is the abyss that clan lasombra access the same abyss from DtF?

yes confirmed in players guide of the high clans, it's also oblivion and the void, however it's not what the garou talk about when they talk about the abyss because that's a wound in the middle umbra that goes down to the low umbra

but because demon the fallen is undercooked as hell (yeah yeah i know) we are never in any of the crossover books given lore or rules about how demons interact with obtenebration as vampires in the dtf storyteller book flat out don't have that discipline only celerity, obfuscate and dominate and the vtm crossover rules predate dtf, devil's due has some rules about how daimonion interacts with demons when it uses the same power source as daimonion 3 causes torment in addition to the bonus damage it was previously said to do to spirits so a ST can make a guess, but there is nothing official

> i know there is the whole thing with the neverborn, and decani as >>93112682 (You) pointed out, but I assumed that decani and the neverborn were related to the earthbound, and they were all under the concept of infernalism.

neverborn are related to the abyss or rather the void it used to be, but not to earthbounds themselves. You see neverborn as the name implies predate the concept of life as they are the things that lived in the void that was the universe before "let there be light" the same void that god also made angels to avoid having to directly interact with

>Is this just white wolf having spread out lore across many gamelines, and not cross referencing?
demon the fallen came in last and there already been 20 years of demon lore before it and instead of trying to do anything about it dtf went "well most of those are not true demons, people are just stupid and uniformed even if they are older than chirst and study this very topic and the few that we decided are real demon are special cases... and no we are not gonna explain them"

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>>93117926
>>93118212
sorry forgot the pic

>>93118065
I don't particularly like Assassin's Creed myself, so I don't see what your point is here.

The Ur-Shulgi thing was interesting, but even if he causes a schism between the islamists and the blood cultists they still struggle from being the stigma of being "middle eastern" and their existence outside of that area being fairly transitory. Much more drastic retcons would be required to fully divorce them from that. So what are they, really? A bunch of murderers but also viziers and also sometimes blood mages. That reads more like a sect than a clan, their focus is all over the place and that's why I think any clan with "castes" can go kick rocks.

Frankly, the "judge" thing never landed for me. Their authority to judge is based on a dubious claim about their Antediluvian. Since their authority is for all intents and purposes self-granted, it makes them come off as more sanctimonious than anything else. It's why I think doubling down on them being unhinged is the right call in my opinion. I lot of Revised and onward stuff feels like it needs to treat them with "respect", probably out of guilt for how one-note they were at first. To make my position clear, I'm fine with non-muslim and non-middle eastern Assamites, I'd actually prefer them this way. But focus in on the assassin thing, and don't try to elevate them to judges. That can be a lie they tell themselves, but not something anyone else would take seriously. I also goes back to my thought that it's fine for some clans to be much more prominent than others. They work best as rare.

>>93118299
>Their authority to judge is based on a dubious claim about their Antediluvian. Since their authority is for all intents and purposes self-granted, it makes them come off as more sanctimonious than anything else
But enough about the Ventrue.

>>93118065
NTA, but, come on now. They're Muslim assassin vampires because that's the coolest thing they could be, let's ignore the metaplot and all that and be objective. Just because it's a stereotype doesn't mean it's bad anon. Could we have Chinese Assamite Wuxia monks dueling with Mongolian Salubri? Sure.
Will it always work?
Maybe not. Things don't *need* to be diversified to be good, the idea is already cool enough. I mean, your coterie gets attacked by arab ninjas and you're gonna bellyache about how they're not all followers of Islam? Or are you going to enjoy the theatre of mind spectacle?

>>93118460
I mean yeah, I imagine other clans like to snicker about Ventrue circlejerking about their lineage behind their backs. Clan Ventrue has been such a dominant force in vampire politics in pretty much every era because they're practical, efficient, remarkably good at what they do, and surprisingly adaptable. Honestly I headcanon that Caine fucking hated Ventru, seeing him as a self important little shit, but couldn't be bothered to execute him because he didn't want to piss off Irad. Also because the administration of the first city would go to hell.

I need advice:
I want to run v20 game. But I want to include hunger mechanic from v5 as I really like it. Now I can't decide if I should just paint 5 dot bar somewhere on character sheet and keep bloodpoints or should I remove bloodpoints altogether?

>>93118866
Well the lasombra talk about how their ante must have been a loser in life to be so obsessed with power and success centuries later


But ventru is the guy who supposedly wanted his clan to be the gilgameshs and zeuses of vampire kind and rule everything they see if his book of nod bit is legit

>>93118967
Oh sure. I'm a little skeptical about the quote being from Ventru personally since while I believe Ventru was not slain, he was definitely not publically active by the time Zeus was a thing. But I believe his intention was basically the same, he and his spawn should rule everything as super elite vampires. Hell I'm a bit of a Ventrue shill myself so I believe Ventru was all that, just not someone Caine liked at all.

Hell, I'd guess that while he appreciates the praise he is due as their ancestor, he would acknowledge that Ventrue rule because they are every great man, every perfect man. Not because they're his spawn.

>>93113163
Did you, y'know, read the book where they're introduced? Because it explains literally everything you're whining about.

Would a Hunter organization that specializes in trying to help people with psychic powers and other lesser supernaturally touched to get a grip over their condition be classified as a compact or a conspiracy? I'm guessing the former. I'm thinking on perhaps modifying Talbot Group to the extent that they've started to try and treat people with other weird conditions outside of "wolf children". It may be for the best since I am setting my chronicle in the pacific northwest and both organizations would hit much of the same notes anyway.

>>93119178
Compact if their scope is regional and they do not have actual powers themselves.

>>93119178
Compact/Conspiracy is about the scope of the organization not what they do or if they have some powers. Is it international? If yes, Conspiracy, if no, compact

>Be Paradox, a video game company
>Buy the WoD IP to make ONE (1) game
>Proceed to make every bad possible choice in developing this game
>Fuck up the core series by placing people in charge who have no respect for the source material
>The entire future of the IP depends on whether or not this game flops or not
>Showcase game
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Phyre and not-Johnny Silverhands
So who’s ready to buy the WoD IP for some bubblegum and loose change in 2025, lads?

>>93119531
i already said i am gonna make a kickstarter to buy the ip when/if vtm2 flops

>>93117926
tl;dr modern Baali got psyop'd by older generations of Baali into being retards

The longer story is that the eldest Baali generations obscured the true nature of the Neverborn and why they were horrible monsters with bullshit excuses so that no one would try to free the Neverborn, but the propaganda was fed to actual Baali as well and their sires and elders got staked before they could really give them "the talk" so over time Baali asically became LARPers

>>93119531
Paradox will probably just keep the ip and let it rot.

>>93119656
nta, but my favorite bit is the baali relation to baal or rather how different age group of baali think about him
very old baali know about baal the earthbound and that he is the patron of nergal, mid age baali think baal is a myth and that their name translates to lords (still possible given the theory that baal's original name was ashur, but nvm that now) while young baali sometimes think they all follow a demon called baal which their elders think is them being stupid and uneducated, but baal the earthbound would have been asleep till recently so it might be true atleast for the nergal baali

>>93119656
Possibly unpopular opinion. Molochim "actually we're trying to keep the universe from being destroyed" Baali is some of the dumbest shit in VtM.

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>>93119656
tell us more anon

>>93119951
i liked the factions from the baali clan book more myself

>>93120050
Be wary, neonate. Showing such earnest interest in the dreaded Baali might cause more concerned Kindred to…question your intentions. Consider this a warning.

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>>93120185
honesty, I'm curious because I was doing some readings and came across lore for a middle eastern hunter group based in mecca that liberally uses jinns (islamic demons), and thought it could be an interesting premise for a chronicle based in Saudi Arabia. The idea of there being a faction of hunters who functions as borderline infernalists to fight vampires is too good a premise.

https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Ikhwan_al-Safa link related.

>>93120050
I mean that's pretty much it
Clanbook: Baali has the rest of the details

If you think about it, the Syndicate really is the Shadow Wizard Money Gang.

>>93118925
To a degree, owod has other mechanics which can be manipulated to make hunger a much bigger deal.

Limiting generation can be done easily, and is the simplest. You can make hunting a larger part of the campaign. Setting the game in place like post-sabbat removal Atlanta can make this even more difficulty, as they have to remain as hidden as possible or get torched. You can also heavily keep up with humanity, meaning that your low blood pool vampires cant just stock up and drop a husk off at the ER or back road.

>>93116343
>Clans have always had many nicknames though.
Yes, but there's a difference between a nickname and going by another name altogether. To expand on what I was saynig, /as players/ talking about the game, having a single immutable name for a clan is convenient, but then *in* game it makes a lot more sense that clan names would have changed over time and across regions.
I mean, look at bloodlines from the Ebony Kingdom that are clearly linked to their european brethrens - Kinyonyi/Ravnos; Guruhi/Nosferatu; Wi Dundu/Lasombra.

>>93118299
>Their authority to judge is based on a dubious claim about their Antediluvian.
I think it works when the impetus to do so comes from the blood. It's part of the curse. The claim is dubious, the need to do it is very real.
>Since their authority is for all intents and purposes self-granted, it makes them come off as more sanctimonious than anything else
That's half the point. Bunch of assholes that think themselves better than other for no other reasons than thinking themselves better, and willig to self appoint as executioners.
And in the end? Just the Beast - the thirst - talking in self aggrandizing ways.

>>93118866
There's always that conflict I have with the Ventrue, there's friction between the narrative of the exceptional individual of merit, and the realities of social structures mattering more than individual merit (in old times clan/family trumps individual, in more moderns, class warfare). It's something I often have difficulties tackling as well as I'd like.

>>93121048
Sure, class/blood matters in outcome, but not so much that it can sustain a bunch of incompetent morons forever. Ruling classes tend to follow a pattern of being founded by people who somehow "earned" their station, usually through war, and then slowly declining until they become so decadent and lazy that they either become subverted or outright deposed, usually when a fuck-up inherits the position. Look at Czar Nicholas, he's a prime example of a wealthy, elite, well connected dynasty going the way of the Dodo due to generations of "growing weak" and a massive fuck-up taking the helm.

Ventrue do attribute a lot of their success due to favoring their own blood, but that does not mean they can't also select for highly competent people. In fact, when married the two would be a terrifying combo. I mean if you can't have flesh and blood children of your own and can only "adopt" new people into the family, you'd look for more "elites". They don't have to follow the exact same rules as mortal classes. Ventrue are nepotistic snobs who think being a Ventrue makes them better than you. They are also a meritocracy. Sounds inherently contradictory, but when you consider how the embrace works, it doesn't have to be.

On the name things sure, you can have historical games where every region has a different version of the same name. In the modern nights though, it's just more convenient especially for players to have one name to know them by.

And hey for what it's worth, I like the Assamites calling themselves "Judges" as long as we don't pretend it isn't a load of horseshit. I'd just rather they remain a smaller more insular clan than trying to make them a main political player.

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Aside from the Daimionion 6 boons, what are some other gamechanging things Infernalism can do for a Vampire?

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>>93118299
I agree with >>93121048 in that
>it works when the impetus to do so comes from the blood. It's part of the curse. The claim is dubious, the need to do it is very real.
In my headcanon Haqim really was a holy hunter with the strongest sense of justice that would provide law and peacekeeping in the first and second cities. Couldn't bear the sight of injustice or evil, hence why he was so invested in taking down the Baali to the point he made Ur-Shulgi, and that would've been his clan's original curse. Then the Baali curse to thirst for blood. And then the tremere curse. With Haqim's cult coming mainly from Ur-Shulgi as an "order by any means necessary" type, since after all he was born in the Baali hellpit. He knows what goes on down there and justifies the horrors of the path of blood as "anyone who won't do what it takes is a complacent fuck that is therefore encouraging it and just as guilty".

That way you can keep both the assassin cult theme, and the judge and lawgiver theme with interesting "who watches the watchmen" ideas about what truly gives them the right to and what justice is. Make them the Judge Dredd clan.

>>93121686
dark companion, one of the old sabbat books and devil's due has rules for demon pacts things they can do include but are not limited to: teaching you disciplines and dark thaum (even single abilities in case you don't want to learn the entire discipline), completele remove the beast (to the point where your road raiting also ceases to exist), raise stats without exp cost, grant demon familiars, allow you to feed on sins or willpower instead of blood, lower you generation and give you a shit ton of "arcana", basicly half a splat worth of abilities

>>93121887
*dark age companion

>>93121795
Need to do it is fine, and why I personally prefer the hunger for Kindred blood as their actual curse and none of this it was the Baali shit. Though personally the idea of a heroic Haqim strikes me as absurd. His principal discipline deals primarily in vitae poison, I can't buy that guy as some heroic figure of principle. Quietus is the power of an assassin, a murderer, a coward. Celerity and Obfuscate double down on this. Let the justice thing be a lie they tell themselves, like Brujah and being philosophers.

Though, to each their own. What happens at my table doesn't effect yours and vice versa. I'm just expressing my annoyance at how the Assamites continue to be an overcomplicated mess of constant pivoting.

>Random from online presents his character concept
>A Ventrue who is a straight, he explicitly mentioned this, female college student
Her feeding restriction?
>Closeted lesbians
This 1000% a fetish character, isn’t it? It was rejected, but should I bounce regardless?

>>93122435
>This 1000% a fetish character, isn’t it? It was rejected, but should I bounce regardless?
As far as fetishes go, this one's pretty mild. I honestly can't see the problem.

>>93122435
The Ventrue curse can definitely be used for fetish purposes. However it could be an attempt to subvert the typical themes of the curse by having her drink something she wouldn't be into normally.

Run through the character in finer detail with Mr. Random and see if you get coomer vibes from him. You can usually tell when someone is magical realming.

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>>93122241
I see their disciplines as fitting for a hunter, though perhaps not a heroic warrior leading the charge on the front lines. Need to catch the fastest antelope, blend with your environment, and make sure your arrow kills, right? Or perhaps you are correct and the "noble lawman" tale is another embezzlement and Haqim himself was just a selfish wandering loner who dealt with the beast by focusing towards taking down the biggest thing he could find, that being the Baali. Maybe all that law-giving and knowledge seeking was just an excuse to stay socially accpetable until the greatest game appeared. Ur-Shulgi doesn't strike me as a liar, and though I remember hearing somewhere he was wrong, perhaps Hqim only wanted what any hunter wants: Prey.
>expressing my annoyance at how the Assamites continue to be an overcomplicated mess of constant pivoting
Agreed, retcons over retcons trying not to be bland and offensive just made their lore a mess. I still don't get what the fuck they were thinking with the skin darkening curse.

>>93122471
>The Ventrue curse WILL definitely be used for fetish purposes

doesn't help that the three times he shows up he is either a wordless sandstorm vampire, a blood crazed maniac who wants to usurp caine, but has no real plan how to or the good guy ante who is trying to hold chivilization together during gehenna

the last two even in different scenarios of the same book!

>>93122471
>>93122624
You can say that for most of Vampire and to a lesser extent, even the other gamelines. Comes with the territory.

I want to get into HtV. Should i get HtV 1E+ corebook + mortal remains and some supplements like night stalkers or compacts or conspiracies, or get HtV 2e and use that? (2e seems like more comprehensive book, alot of stuff in 1 place, but 1e has more stuff per supplements)
T;Dr need tips for how to get into HtV

>>93123106
take at look at the 2e corebook and use 1e supplements that fit the game you want to make.

>>93110818
>Stands
Not really.
>Zanpakuto
Sorta, ya. Arguably closer to your Hollow
>Death note
IDK.
Defo very Persona

>>93123106
Get the 2e core and Hurt Locker, that covers the PCs plenty. For monsters the core book has solid rules, however the ones found in the basic CofD corebook are a good addition. From there you can go wild with pretty much everything from any splat. Just remember the basics of Hunter:
-no pity, no remorse
-all monsters lie and you should not trust them
-don't ask what cheiron does
-don't question the lucifuge
-don't inquire about the fae
-always double tap

>w20 game
>simple chiminage: Taking care of a plant each 3 days 'til it blooms
>players forget about (my character is a kinfolk and they didn't tell about this to him so he couldn't help either)
>yesterday I remembered about it and told them, counting the days they missed for real and which days the pack did on automode 'cause it was timeskip
>one player confessed he remembered, but didn't tell anyone 'cause he lost track of days and instead of coming up with the topic he just let it go
>another player threw the "my character could've done it, but if you guys are counting on my memory that's not gonna happen because I can't even remember important details of my life"

Why people like this even play a game that needs you to keep attention on details?

>>93119539
> fans owning an IP

LOL. Senpai. That's the quickest way to reduce WoD back to below a niche within a niche hobby. Especially if you're on the 'V20 bak again bitches!' train.

>>93124406
>Didn't tell the kinfolk
Reasonable
>Not reminding the pack even though you remembered
Unreasonable
>My character could've done it but didn't lmao
BSD material

>>93124449
It's already pretty niche, and it feels to me that recently it's gotten a lot deader. At least my impression is that in the 2010s people online were talking a lot more about their games, and they were playing a bigger variety of them, not just VtM and WtA.

>>93124449
Sometimes it is for the best though. The best example is Dwarf Fortress. It not only inspired a whole new genre of games but also turned into shit when it went to steam.
If WoD was actually made with passion it might become smaller in someways but at least it will endure and has a decent chance of blooming again.
Paradox shit the bed so bad that I doubt even the guys they assigned into developing the 5th edition knows what they will do next week. To the point that 5th Edition is a disorganized mess and they silently killed CofD.
(No joke, does anyone knows how 5th Edition works? V5 was somewhat a sequel with some retcons but W5 and H5 turned out to be complete rework with only some names taken from the previous works. So how does this work?)

>>93121167
>Ruling classes tend to follow a pattern of being founded by people who somehow "earned" their station
They certainly love to claim that, even when they have to make up the story wholecloth to cover up other facts. You'll notice those people that so called "earned" their station very rarely came from nowhere... they already where part of a social network of power that uplifted them.
Not to disparage their merit, but merit only shines when sustained, generally by others.

>Sounds inherently contradictory, but when you consider how the embrace works, it doesn't have to be.
That's what I meant with the friction bit. Most elitist claims are founded on no small amount of bullshit, but what happens when you make them indisputable? What happens when those below are forced to admit that those *monsters* above /are/ better? Conversely, what happens when the superhuman elite ends up confronted with the fact that a nervous system doesn't care that one nerve is even a million time better at doing its job than the others?
Or even, to go back to original point,what happens to the elder that thought himself tough shit, only to realize as time marches on that it was not him, it was the social structure around him in which he was a parasite, and now that it's gone, he's not so great?
Some interesting things here that needs to be handled with care. I often find myself wanting on that point.

> In the modern nights though, it's just more convenient especially for players to have one name to know them by.
Given that vampires act like a herd of cats at the best of times, I now want to run the conclave that had to go out and decide on which name would be given precedence. Talk about deaths other insignificant matters.

>>93124498
I gotta say they're pretty luck we had timeskip or else the plant would be dead by now.
And at same time I agree it's reasonable they didn't tell Kinfolk about this, some Garou assign kinfolks to do simple chiminage and I thought in the end they would do this.
We moved our game to Foundry (unfortunatly) and the forgetful player said "now with Simple Calendar I will remember things", even tho we had a Handout for a Calendar in Roll20 and we have a channel in Discord for writing important notes of our game.
The player is just lazy.

>>93124597
>deaths other insignificant matters
The Shadow Crusade isn't about vicissitude as an illness, it's about Tzimisce that dare pretend to be called anything else!
Just you wait Naglopers, your time will come.

>>93124576
>(No joke, does anyone knows how 5th Edition works? V5 was somewhat a sequel with some retcons but W5 and H5 turned out to be complete rework with only some names taken from the previous works. So how does this work?)
It doesn't, you're probably supposed to keep the game setting separate. Which yeah, makes no sense.

V5 even mentions Kinfolk and this hasn't changed in reprints

>Take Vicissitude away from Tzimisce, give them Koldunism as in-clan. Reinforce the landlord culture thing
>Give Gangrel Vicissitude as Abyss Mysticism-like Rituals. Give them an Evolve into Crab faction to compete with the Return to Monke Gangrel
>Retcon Tzimisce antediluvian into being the one sank into the Earth, he's trying to marry Gaia so he can have her land
>Retcon Gangrel antedilluvian into being the shapeless boiling blob of shapeshifting

WHERE IS HEDGEFAG

>>93125335
Lurking, hiding...
Ready to strike when you least expect it.

>>93124597
Outcome is a mix of merit and opportunity in my estimation. A truly great person can only reach so far if they don't have the right opportunity, on the other hand, all the opportunities in the world can't save someone who is truly inept. But back to the topic of vampire before this turns into a debate on political theory and history.

I understand where you're coming from on it being quite complicated. It's why I like the Ventrue, actually. You have a concept that's fairly simple on its face, ie Vampire as "elite" or "ruling class". But in practice that simple concept can facilitate endless fun characters and plot-lines. I generally like clans like that, Nosferatu and Toreador are also good examples of it, though the latter often has execution issues on a play level due to them getting overly associated with "sexy" vampire.

Playing as a Ventrue was one of my favorite experiences as a player. Sadly, I'm usually on ST duty when my group is playing WoD. There was a delightful contrast of her coming from old money, having nearly every natural advantage imaginable, but also being a measly 12th generation neonate who was thrown into the deep end of Kindred politics due to high expectations. She'd always been a natural winner in life, but now here comes unlife. She succeeded in that too, granted, and routinely liked handling things "herself" to prove it wasn't her money, or her family, but her that was so special, so much better. On the other hand she is a closet Antediluvian worshiper who believes that Ventrue blood is legitimately something special and that they choose only the cream of the crop to join their ranks BECAUSE their blood is special and can't be wasted. One very fun plot-line was slowly realizing that she had been groomed for the embrace since she was like 14.

If the whole upper class part of the Ventrue chafes you a bit, you can always emphasize the meritocracy aspect with an organized crime Ventrue, or other Ventrue of humble origins.

>>93124576
The game will never 'bloom' if it can't actually get into the public's hands. You can't rely on just PDF/PoD sales, it has to be in game and book stores (which it currently is) to actually bloom. Which, it has as the X5 editions, this place is just vehemently 'no fr fr it's truly dead!' when people are playing it and purchasing it. They just don't come here to talk about it because everyone shits on it, so why bother coming here?

> how does it work
Originally it was a continuation. Now V5 is more 'soft reboot' that doesn't consider old stuff canon unless it's directly used in a V5 book (I hate saying that, it's like a spell to summon Charles Phipps). And W5 was always billed as a reboot, and whatever old stuff they use will be recontextualized, probably. The line direction changed after the first few V5 books, mainly because the original WoD team screwed themselves by taking a real human rights issue and fictionalizing it for a game, among other minor gaffes. That shit doesn't fly for a multi-million dollar parent company who might lose their rights to sell their real money maker, video games, in certain regions of the world (which was the likely outcome if they'd chosen to die on the hill involving that half page of fiction).

Plus the modern audience isn't really looking for the same stuff that a lot of the legacy material presented. Ongoing metaplots in games have been dead for a long time, barring a couple of outliers, for one random example. How WoD worked before, doesn't 100% work for the wider audience that it needs to capture to 'bloom'.

>>93122241

I mean, from the point of view of an average human, the Assamites would be more heroic since they're merc-ing vamps. It's not like other vampire clans are particularly heroic.

I think that's the angle that would make the Assamites work. They're clearly the good guys in their own minds because they're just parasiting off parasites.

If you still want non-total-murder assassin Assamites, you could say the Viziers can like, steal some of the Vitae from other vampires or some shit.

The idea being they think their shit don't stink because of what their prey is.

But yeah. With so many retcons, any material on the Assamites spends so much time on backstory and explanations that you never get as much time to actually delve into the current clan.

>>93126391
you sound like a shill mate.
(Also, where do you think people talk positively about 5th edition? Reddit? More toxic than here, somehow. Onyx Forums? lol, even CTPhipps, a guy who basically shilled for V5 without being a shill, gave up on it. Discord? Official one is an echo chamber and ban happy against criticism. I still remember the W5 debacles in there. Unofficial ones mostly range from indifferent to hateful against 5th Edition. RPGnet Forums? They are more concerned with wokeness and diversity and never really a good place to discuss WoD. They shat on W5 though, especially about that minority tattoo tracing.)

>>93126593
I have a friend who actually goes on Tumblr and apparently they're pretty hostile to WoD5 over there. I guess we aren't so different after all.

>>93126391
I've seen someone bring up the first point in a now-deleted Reddit thread recently as an example why WoD5 is superior to CofD. Which I think is a bit of a backwards logic, because CofD2e never even got to stores in the first place, as far as I know, so it never got the chance to prove itself. So yeah, WoD5 is more popular because they're pushing it, but how do we know something else wouldn't become more popular with the same push?

>>93126616

Tumblr was always the place for retarded women, like 4chan is the place for retarded men. It's two sides of the same coin.

But both are now relegated mostly to irrelevancy in the new internet.

>>93121167
>a massive fuck-up
In his defense, the real fuck-up was his father choosing to not train him in statecraft because he viewed as a spare prince and thought his eldest son would rule for decades

>>93126664
I feel like we're getting baited into an edition war here, but just to add my two cents, I am very skeptical whenever someone claims WoD5 is doing well. Firstly I know basically nobody who plays WoD in general without me introducing them to it, and I know a good amount of tabletop gamers. Obviously D&D is the big one but I know more Genesys or WFRP players than WoD. The other far less anecdotal point is why the hell does it release so slowly and anemically if it's doing well? We're how many years in and we only recently got W5? With zero indication as far as I know of Wraith or Mage on the way, to say nothing of Changeling. It's moving about as fast as CofD, maybe slower, who've been soft cancelled and relying on kickstarter for ages now.

>>93126795
Fairly common monarchy L, honestly. Always make sure the spare is ready to go.

>>93126875
Yeah, people who say WOD5 is doing well are coping.
Old WOD was the closest a ttrpg ever came to dethroning d&d, and that was during its old golden ages of 2e and 3e when everything under the sun had d20 supplemental material for it.(even whitewolf).
Modern wolfdox does even compare.

>>93127092
VtM/oWoD did well because it presented itself as anti-D&D by showing things TSR refused to
Which on one hand meant things like sex, realistic violence, and gays but on the other meant racism, homophobia, and antisemitism
WoD5 does not have teeth, it wants to be "another D&D" instead of "anti-D&D"

>>93126533
I think this is why the diablerie aspect is also important. It's one thing to kill other vampires and deem yourself right for doing it, it's another thing entirely to devour their souls. It makes them worse than the things they hunt (usually), so even if you might practically say "less vampires around, that's a good thing", you can't morally put them on a pedestal.

>>93126701
Genuinely, not trying to get a rise out of you, but you sound bitter. It makes it hard for people to consider your position honestly.

>>93127149
>WoD5 does not have teeth, it wants to be "another D&D" instead of "anti-D&D"
A tale as old as time. The same shit happened to MMOs when WoW became more popular than cocaine.
SWG went from being one of the most popular MMOs on the market to death-spiralling when it killed everything that made it unique in favor of being another WoW clone.

>>93127418
>WoW
Another reminder that history repeats itself.
When WotC make a large enough fuck-up, and they will, d&d will fall from grace just as WoW did.
The casual players will then move on to the next fad and other TTRPGs will be able to find new fans in ones looking to dig deeper

>>93126593
twitter! just kidding wod on twitter is so dead since w5's art disaster that people aren't even shilling or hating, it's just offical posts

>>93127647
WotC already fucked up MTG and they fucked up with Duel Masters. They also started fucking up DnD, remember how they tried to mess with Open Gaming License after seeing how they can monetize DnD?

I'm genuinely curious. How many of you, if any, actually enjoy oWoD in its entirety? No judgement if you do, but I got into the setting through Bloodlines when I was a teen and was thoroughly disappointed by most stuff outside of Vampire when I read into it more. The game made ghosts and werewolves and everything else look cool, and gave me a sense of the world being a big mystery filled with all manner of spooks, but when I decided to read up on the finer points of those other supernaturals I found it mostly not to my liking.

Adding to that, it seems a lot of people have a "stay in splat, everything else is secondary to that splat" approach to the setting online. So I am legitimately curious if there's anyone out there that likes the setting as a whole.

>>93127739
>"stay in splat, everything else is secondary to that splat" approach to the setting online
Because that's how they're written. They're all essentially their own settings riffing on some common themes. None of them actually fit together as if they're all talking about the same thing.

>>93127739
I'm a pre-revised, one world of darkness baby. I'm in the every splat is right and wrong simultaneously/unreliable narrator camp.
Granted, I like the mechanics and weird niche lore more than the metaplot, but modern "PerSonAL HOrRoR" wod can die in a fire.

>>93127739
>it seems a lot of people have a "stay in splat, everything else is secondary to that splat" approach to the setting online.
it's not online it's in the books my friend even the crossover sections tell you which splat they see as primary and there are different crossover rules depending on which splat you use as primary
Like the crossover rules form the mage st books make garou far weaker than the crossover rules in the vtm books because the vtm books use the garou's rank for clashes while the mage books use the gift's rank for the the clash so by vtm logic a rank 4 theurge can sense wyrm someone with obfuscate 3 and below and 4 becomes a clash while by mage rules every 2 dot power overpowers this gift and there is no stronger version of it

both of these are equally canon in that they are canon for their main splat, meanwhile wta itself does not have crossover rules outside of garou vs vampires in a dark age book

>>93127752
One world of darkness works fine if you don't take what any splatbook says as gospel, which is why they all had unreliable narrators.
There are about 7 different people claiming to be responcible for pompeii, but all also equally likely to be completely full of shit.

>>93127739

VtM definitely seems like its the star of the show when it comes to oWoD.

That said, I've warmed a little to the glorious stupidity of Werewolf over time, and Mage is cool, if something I'd never play.

But CoD's weirdest accomplishment was really letting the other stuff shine. I think its take on Changeling is obviously the superior one, and I enjoy Geist and Promethean as well. But by the same token, I could never really get interested in the vampire side of CoD.

>>93127739
Iirc cotd was more balanced/written for intra splat play while in owod, power scaling is out of the window so I tra splat play generally is not recommended outside of specific intra splat campaigns (like chaos factor) I might be wrong though as I don't generally mix splats in owod

>>93127813
It works fine if you deliberately ignore all the metaphysical explanations of everything. Which is to say the games are their own settings. Because that's how they're written as they're not actually made to be one cohesive things.

>>93127813
It works better if you substitute sorcerers for mages in crossover. Mages are fucking busted.
Now if only parawolf would stop trying to nerf an already underpowered splat into the ground for no fucking reason...

>>93127891
The metaphysical explinations are contradicted constantly between books in the same splat, they were never gospel to begin with. Just the local's best guess.

>>93127915
Who cares? Still weren't written as a single cohesive setting so it hardly matters than some character somewhere is wrong, or that there is an optional take on something to use.

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is there anything in either vampire game about ghouling and or controlling plants?

>>93128060
Requiem has plant ghouls and I think some devotions (combo disciplines) that let you control plants.

Masquerade has a thaum path that lets you do poison ivy plant manipulation.

>>93128074
in what book do i find the plant ghouls?

>>93128003
Not some optional take or something, large core ideas in the same splate are challenged constantly.
Like the idea that gaia is the actual top spirit in WTA, whether or not ascension is even real, and other major setting elements.
Do you not remember when the tremere backstory was turned on its heads eighty billion times?
WOD runs on the unreliable narrator trope, it contradicts itself constantly and that's the point. Your players are suppose to feel like they're sifting through a desert of lies to find the one grain of truth. You're supposed to go into it like a schizo conspiracy theorist.

>>93128060
Ass mites' kalif, maybe.

>>93127752
>>93127807

It's pretty disappointing having a "world of darkness" but things rapidly break down if you want to have the various spooks of the world interact, especially with how "certain" a lot of the later splats are about how the setting works on a metaphysical level.

>>93128093

And if you're a vampire, you gotta add on the extra paranoia of "Who is feeding me this bullshit and for what reason?"

>>93128060
There is in VTM, but it's an obscure viss thing that requires contraction space aids

>>93128087
I believe it's Half Damned, a Requiem 2e book. Should be in both Megas. They're called Mandragora. Same book has a lot of ghoul related and adjacent stuff, including Dhampirs.

>>93128093
Go take it up with the devs then? It's not my fault these games aren't written like you want.

Explain H5 to me:
> Orgs are bad man, they want to use vamps to gain Powah, man, we iz righteous coz we want to destroy dem vamp
>Envy: though I'd also like to use they're powers for my own gain
>Greed: and take they're cash as well.
>But we're better then orgs all da way muh man
Who the fuck greenlighted this bs

>>93128362
first, geenlit
second, Paradox

>>93128266
That's some interesting projection.

>>93128362
I unironically believe that one claim that H5 was rushed out to undercut HtV2e.

What is closest equivalent of the imbued in HtV ?

>>93128362
this came out together with the sabbat and second inq book often considered to be the worst books even in v5

and all 3 are acchil's work

>>93128362
I genuinely think parawolf's smartest move right now would be to fire as many people as they can and hire the people who made old-wod 2e.

>>93128439
I believe you. In some way, if you really dig into h5 it is great for tier 1/cell type of game. Stakes are high, you lack serious resources, you don't really know who you up against, and danger track keeps constant suspense as situation grows grimmer, and while regular humans are generally stronger in X5 edition, you're still nowhere as strong as mortals in chronicles. I love it, but man, after 3 sessions, you experience everything book had to offer. It's really shame as h5 had bones to be great. I'm sure some talented ST can create really cool campaign using v20 or second inquisition supplements but it is a chore trying to extract such greatness from such rushed book. And HtV having broader scope adds insult to injury. Generally I run HtV system for hunter themed games, but I can see potential in h5. Who knows, v5 was very slim at first too, so after couple supplements we'll have contender for definitive hunter game. But if they'll add supplement for playing orgs I'll be pissed as authors are fucking coy with there 'orgs are bad, only Joe the nobody has DRIVE to be true hunter'

>>93128486
So achilis is a hack?

>>93128439
>Instead of having two Table tops out that could grab more people they chose to try and make them compete.
They embarrassed themselves for no reason.

>>93128513
WoD makes only small slice of Paradox portfolio I would not expect them to put serious effort into saving is.

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>>93128362
I have no idea.
>btw, religious zealots like Society of Leopold has no drive like we do. They work for paycheck.
>Yeah dude, I know my family has been fighting vampires since dark ages and have been in the Leopold for generations but it's a just a job to me man, you know.

>>93128610
Yeah. According to h5, Sullivan Dane is jobber (due to ties with society of leopold) even if dude has fucking visions from god himself

>>93128610
>>93128606
>For Paradox, WoD is just another job, they have no Drive for if
Ironic.

I was reading halls of arcanum and there was chapter regarding inner secret groups within arcanum. White monks and red monks. Within this general, someone said that white monks are order of hermes and red monks are the tremere (or other way around). Is this speculation or this information is in books? (Also is holmscroft a mummy or mage?)

>>93126593
>reddit
People talk about it on reddit though, despite the shitheels dropping into basically any thread to cry about how much they hate V5. Mods are at least most of the time doing their jobs.
>discord
Yeah, banning disruptive bitchers on the official discord is such a bad thing. Plus there are a couple of other unoffical Discords, FB groups, and other places such as the paid DM sites.
>OPP forums
Yeah, they've driven off basically anyone who wants to talk about V5 in a positive manner. Doesn't help that some of their writers/owners are 'lol V5 a shit' which is probably a big part of why they didn't get writing licenses after Cults.

>>93126664
It could have been good. It did well when when it was 1e and sold in stores. But OPP doesn't have that kind of money to do that. And CofD doesn't have 'brand recognition' which was a big reason the IP was purchased.

>>93127092
It doesn't have to dethrone D&D to 'do well' senpai. It has to sell, make profit, and continue to make books.

>>93126875
No bait, just genuine commentary. And your anecdotal experience is like mine - not representative of the whole. There are people in fandoms that don't participate in the online parts. Slow releases are how most things that aren't D&D or PF do nowadays anyway; the supplement treadmill of the 90s/2000s is one of the things that killed the old WoD, after all.

>>93128579
i like his old blood magic books if only for the fluff, but yeah his wod5 team somehow managed to be worse than the previous ones

>>93128734
Mostly speculation, it was left vague so that Storyteller can work on it. The books has the Order of Hermes speculate about the identities of the groups.
>>93128744
You really do sound like a shill like that anon said.

>>93128734
>is holmscroft a mummy or mage?
his homie Winthrop Murray is a cabiri mummy so he is probably too

> White monks and red monks. Within this general, someone said that white monks are order of hermes and red monks are the tremere (or other way around). Is this speculation or this information is in books?
both factions mention how they secretly control the arcanum in several books (the tremere even going so far as to shield them from the camarilla) but if they are the monks and which color is who is up to speculation

>>93128744
>Doesn't help that some of their writers/owners are 'lol V5 a shit'
Based.
Also, it was hilarious to watch CTPhipps trying to get people not to go too hard on V5.

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>>93128744
>shitheels
>bitchers
opinion ignored

>>93128060
The Yarilo from the ST Vault Gangrel Requiem 2e Clan book can control plants. There are mandragora which are ghoul plants. The Circle of the Crone have a merit called Mandragora Garden in Lore of the Covenants that makes their Cruac stronger.

>>93128951
It'll get even worse when they finally release bloodlines 2.
They've been working on since 2016 and desperately telling us their is no fire behind the curtain, the smoke is just clouds.

>>93129408
>>93129408
There is also the Adroanzi from Ancient Bloodlines in 1e and Bloodlines the Ageless in 2e. The 2e take is better IMO and its very mandragora focused. They get some really cool mechanics.

>>93128610
I'd take the "magically driven to hunt or else go insane (probably will go insane anyways eventually" of the original than this "huh? oh yeah... I only do monster hunting cuz it pays the bills."

>>93128610
and then the adventages are shit like "i am good with animals" and "i have a drone" really feels like half of the book was written with the imbued in mind and then they just cut them out and didn't want to rewrite everyting

>>93129468
Man, don't get me started on bloodlines 2. What a messy fucking story that has been.

And honestly, the thing that peeves me the most is its insistence on being called Bloodlines 2, when it doesn't continue from the original in terms of story, it isn't set in the same city, and it doesn't even have similar gameplay, mood, aesthetic, or music to the original, in either version of it. Calling that Bloodlines 2 just made it obvious as a cash grab from the word go, and honestly people wouldn't have been AS hard on it if they just kept the tradition of Redemption and Bloodlines by making it VtM: Legacy or VtM: Epiphany, or some other fancy word that relates to the theme of the game.

>>93129602
It was originally supposed to be bloodlines 2, until they fired the lead writer over what turned out to be false charges.
Fucking lol moment. I wonder if the guy in charge of that decision thinks about how much money he lost in his quiet moments.

>>93129679
One of the problems with entertainment companies nowadays is that people who make bad calls almost never get fired or lose money. When it's time to fire someone it's always lower level employees that get cut.

>>93129719
It's so dumb. Those people tend to have a higher paycheck too, so cutting them in favor of new options is saving money 2 ways.
Unfortunately real life functions more like the camarilla than anything sensible.

>>93128486
>acchil
How involved was he with pre-5WoD?

>>93129761
Hey now, at least the Camarilla is competent enough to protect the Masquerade. And you get to drink blood from champagne glasses in fancy ballrooms.

For real though, I have a buddy who met a bunch of people from Insomniac that got laid off after Spiderman 2. Absolutely none of them were writers, which from what little I recall was the main source of criticism for that game. Though, we're getting a little off-topic here.

>>93129818
https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Justin_R._Achilli

>>93129818
quite a bit he was basicly the blood sorcery/tremere/tzimisce guy and i guess one could argue that with assamite and setite sorcery he tried to fix those clan too, he helped with a lot of the vtm clan books and in cofd he was involved in the corebooks of werewolf, changeling, promethean and in a return to form the Ordo Dracul book
>https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/Justin_R._Achilli
not saying everything he did was great or bad, just that he did a lot

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>>93129590
I couldn't believe it when I saw the so called Edges and advantages were. Forget imbued, Hunters Hunted hunters make H5 Hunters look like pussies.

>Virgin H5 Hunter
>Oh boy, I can a few weapons and maybe even multiples ones but just for a single scene. How lucky.
>Chad Hunters Hunted Hunter
>With modest investment I can arm a small gang single handily. I know hunters who have enough weaponry to arm a platoon, make SWAT teams look inadequate and paramilitaries around the world envious.

>>93129893
>>93129919
Thanks, what was his vision for it like?

>Tremere, Tzimisce, assamite and setite.
At he isn't a brujahfag.

>>93129986
>Thanks, what was his vision for it like?
he got to write it he wrote a 800 year long plot about the players working with tremere and etrius to stop the varrious end of the world plots of evil!saulot, the eldest and kupala in the transilvania chronicles

i should mention he doesn't white wash the tremere in that as he is also the guy who wrote most of the omen war stuff, most of the double T clan warcrimes in the dark ages and the gehenna scenario in which tremere tries to backstabs the players and good!saulot saves the world as a sequel to the transilvania chronicles

but in general: blood sorcery is very important and useful, demons and other supernaturals exist even if they are no the same as the splats of other gameslines, except when he the hypocrite writes the vtm/mta crossover books and playing elders can be fun

>>93110483
Better question, what are some good slurs for hunters to use against vampires?

>>93130097
Bloodsucker
Suckhead
Leech
Fangbanger
Parasite
Fruit Bat
Blood Junkie
Hellspawn
Dinner-suit
Spirit Halloween
Blood Junkie
Corpse Paint

>>93130259
Ah fuck I wrote blood junkie twice.

Uhh...
Tick
Dirty Needle
Flatline

>>93130259
"Blanks" or "Blank Bodies" also work if the hunters use termal goggles.

>>93129883
Shit like this makes the Wyrm cultists arguments that the world needs a reset sound almost reasonable.
No wonder they keep getting cultists.

>>93130097
I'm partial to Hemo-goblin

>>93125736
>If the whole upper class part of the Ventrue chafes you
Oh, not at all. It's more that, as a personal horror player, I try to, but it can be so hard get those nuances across /in play/.
As I said, interesting material, but that needs a kind of subtle handling that is hard to get reliably in play.

>>93127739
My personal take, having DMed most WoD games since V1 first released, for what little it's worth:
There's a conflict between RPG books as a literary form of its own (kinda akin to tourist guidebook to an imaginary world) and RPG books as gaming material. You need fiction interesting enough to make people willing to invest themselves in the game, and with just the right volume/details/texture that players can share the common mindscape.
Trouble is, past a certain volume, the capacity for emergent content gets hampered down, but gaming companies are in the business of selling you that very content. That's how they stay afloat. We end up with a race to the bottom.
In oWoD, Wraith and Changeling are probably the worst offenders. Both have a very delicate game at their core that gets drowned in the supplement noise until you can't even seize them anymore; they broke under the weigth.
Having said that, for me most WoD games basically work as: only Core, everything else is indicative, to be plundered (at times) or ignored (mostly). Remixed from one campaign to another. I don't care about the content in itself, I don't want definitive answers to mysteries, I can totally live with contradictions from one campaign to another... it's all about having the right /playground/ for the upcoming game.

>>93130259
>Fruit bat
Only for Toreadors.

>>93130358
Reality is presumably fucked up at its core due to the two of three Triat is certifiably mad, and the Wyld is the literal embodiment of chaos, so everything is presumably going off the rails. Presumably, the Wyrm's mad drive for total destruction is just a misguided effort to return to the base format. The Triatic Wyrm itself could be seen as the Wyrm's relatively crude effort in creating its own version of the Triat, but this is almost surely doomed for failure, because a being that can only corrupt and destroy can never truly create, so if the Wyrm gets its way, all of reality would probably only descend in a path of total entropy. Much like how our scienists assume our reality would eventually go.

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>>93130576
>>Fruit bat
>Only for Toreadors.
kek
Motherfucker

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>>93130648
How many hunter factions of both Old World of Darkness and Chronicles of Darkness would even be knowledgable enough to aware of vampire clans, let alone differentiate among vampires to the extent they can tell which are Toreadors?

>>93130701
I don't know, but I can see "fruit bat" becoming common among Camarilla kindred.

>>93130576
>>93130715
I could also it among used among Brujahs and Gangrels to demean other vampires they see as too weak or soft in general.

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>>93128060
Thaumaturgy has The Green Path, and there's the Lhiannan discipline of Ogham for all your unwashed forest lady pussy needs before you get sacrificed to the old gods.

>>93130701
not hunters, but the shadowlords know that there are tzimisce, tremere and other, the silent striders know that there are setites, gangrels and other

imbued figured out that there are 4 "castes", but they assumed that nosferatu and gangrel are the same

the shadow inqusition used to seperate vampries based on the roads they followed and weren't aware of clans

the arcanum does not know about clans

project twilight knows about the sabbat clans because of ventrue backers

pentex knows about clans and sects and i guess they could hire hunters

and there is a unnamed independent ghoul org that knows all clans

>>93128448
The maleus maleficarium or psychics.

>>93130259
Dire Mosquito

>>93128060
Tremere have ghoul plants I think

>>93130863
The tremere have everything, we're trying to figure out who they stole it from.

>>93130754
>all your unwashed forest lady pussy needs
Funny that you mention it, I just watched The Painted Bird earlier today. It is one of the plot points there.

>>93128448
Heroes from beast, the hunter compact that hunts them is called the reckoning.

H5 hunter:
>Can't join larger organizations due to "reasons", Can use desperation die which is slightly weaker/stronger veriant of htv risking willpower, have mirror advantages tha tcan be flavored as anything mundane or supernatural
Hunter hunted hunter:
Can join larger groups, can learn minor magics or aquire psionics, can modify humanity stat by changing out one virtue to conviction
HtV hunter: can join larger groups, which allows to use minor supernatural abilities, can risk willpower, can modify morality to reflect vigil, gains xp at increased rate, has additional training from inherent pre vigil profession.

Give hunters hunted ability to increase dice like risking willpower or desperation, and they are pretty much same thing as HtV hunter. HtV seems like best of hh2 and h5 worlds

>>93131284
>HtV seems like best of hh2 and h5 worlds
It is more "H5 is a poor man's vigil, written by an anarchsfag".

Lets move away from misery-wanking about current whitewolf and talk about the game we as we came to love in initially.
I'm an oldwod fan and honestly loved that it used to have the kind of pants-on-head 90's stupid thats only found in shadowrun pink mohawk campaigns now.
In that spirit, I propose a challenge.
Infernalist challenge. A human infernalist with sufficient demonology knowledge can buy just about any combination of powers from any splat(at least for the short time they have before they're torn apart by angry demons)
What's the weirdest combo of powers you can come up with for our soon to be corpse?

>>93131419
only slightly on topic, but dtf has one of the most stupidly busted crafting and ritual systems white wolf ever printed

it allows a fallen to imprint powers they don't have into a item a as long as they have the base lore so a demon with lore 1 can make a sword with lore 4 that instant kills nearly everyone by seperating the body from the soul and they can also add several lores to the item so a demon with death 1 lore of Paths 1 and lore of pattern 1 can make a sword with lore of death 4 to cut souls, lore of Paths 5 to have the sword cut from range and lore of patterns 5 so that the sword also alters time to hit faster or to kill your target before you swung even

non demons can use those, humans power them with their faith and other splat can all power them as acording to the demon story teller book vitae, gnosis, quinessence is all compatible with faith and unless the demon builds it into the weapon it does not even corrupt

so yeah a instant death weaboo sword, however the sword would have to be really amazing to hold that much metaphysical weight indefinitely, but hey it wouldn't even the most stupid item in the dtf books that would still be soul eater as it allows you to basicly run around with a earthbound

...unless of course your st is actually insane because with st permision you might also be able to add (demon) rituals into items, but you are pretty much able to make up rituals as you want as long as they are "thematic" to lore of the caster and you can cast them in a group so at that point you are reaching mage level of stupid and your sword also turns all the wraiths you create with it into loyal fire elementals (one of the example ritual from the book if summoning elementals) and you need like 5 [insert splat energy points] to swing it once

>>93131528
This is the same splat that can mulch through a third of the american continent by investing 5 points in a background.
The devs definitely needed another revision for DtF in general.

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>>93131419
>I'm an oldwod fan and honestly loved that it used to have the kind of pants-on-head 90's stupid thats only found in shadowrun pink mohawk campaigns now.

I’ve been writing a system for the last year that’s essentially a big love letter to that old school WoD. It’s called the Shrouded Earth and it’s a love letter to oWoD in its dorkiest, trench coat and katana 1990s incarnation. Currently just over 90% finished and in a playable state. Read the intro fiction, I think I’m channeling the vibe you’re talking about.

>>93117266
They did retcon them, but 20th re-fucked them so that's kinda all ppl know of them since it's the McDonalds of WoD.

>>93131792
>430 pages
My fucking god. It's like MtAw1e corebook.

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>>93131940
It’ll be about 500 when it’s finished and formatted. It’s essentially a WoD inspired action horror game [think Hellboy, Hellsing, Devil May Cry, or Type Moon] about feuding supernatural Conspiracies. The game have twelve playable Types, Vampires, Shifters, Magicians, Ghosts, Mummies, Faeries, Constructs, Scientists, Psychics, Heroes, Hunters, and Demons. Also present is three tiers of Magic, rules for various Fighting Styles, and subsystems for bureaucracy, mass combat, and a lot of thought into social systems and combat mechanics.

>>93117328
>mixing Obtenebration and Necromancy, that was bad
It's really not a big deal at all, you can just ban people from playing shit outside of their clan.

>>93132091
Sounds cool. I've been wondering why WoD never got an old school renaissance the way older DnD editions did, or why it never got much in the way of 3rd party content.

>>93122435
What happened if a kindred drank blood with STD's?

>>93130701
You don't really need to be an expert on vampire society to notice how some of those bats are fruity.

>>93110483
Want to run a oneshot for my friends, is Chronicles of Darkness good/fun enough for people who've never played a ttrpg before?

>>93132769
Yeah. People who have never played any RPG before have little to no frame of reference for things mechanically, so it's all about presentation and keeping them engaged. It's not that complicated, though you may want to ignore some of the more in-depth social and investigation systems if you think they wouldn't have the patience for it, and it's not an indictment of your players. Lots of veterans don't care for those systems.

My only other word of advice is you may want to look through the core and ban/houserule a few things in advance just in case your players stumble on a broken combo or a bad rule and get attached. Newbie players can do that.

I have a plan. I need anons to poke holes in it, cause right now it seems too good of a stunt to pull off.

>Get a big metal coffin.
>Fill it with Vitae infused pebbles.
>Use Path of Mercury to teleport up multiple times.
>Pilot the coffin to the Moon.
>When the sun is hidden use Path of Conjuration to build a house, & carve into the Moon too if you want to get some nice solid stone around you.
>Create Haven Ritual Circle to teleport to
>Teleport down using Teleport to True Friend, Mirror Walk, or a second HavenRitual Circle, etc.

Have nigh impregnable Moon Base.

>>93132762
>"I can't believe that gay prositute you killed was a vampire. How do you knew?
>Vampire?

>>93132850
Well first off the moon is tidally locked, so you would need to reach the dark side of the moon, no waiting until the sun is hidden.

Second problem is how the hell are you going to make the house vacuum sealed. Vampires may not be able to breathe but I imagine they would still take some passive damage from being in a no pressure environment. I vaguely recall something about blood boiling in a vacuum (not a scientist), that would cause serious problems for vamps.

Thirdly, is it worth all this time, effort and blood just to have a haven on the moon?

>>93132850
I'd argue that if you aren't using some kind of spacesuit for this, you're taking environmental damage constantly, especially if you're staying in shadow. Temps range from -280 to 250F (-173 to 127C) on the surface depending on sun exposure levels. Frostbite can happen in seconds at -30.

And even if you do have a suit, the regolith dust is going to be wearing it down a lot faster than you think.

>>93132893
>Well first off the moon is tidally locked, so you would need to reach the dark side of the moon, no waiting until the sun is hidden.
Tidally locked to the Earth, not the sun. All sides see sunlight, we just only see the one side from Earth.

>>93132900
Fair. Like I said, not a scientist. But how are you keeping the vacuum out and like >>93132894 says, keeping the temperature remotely reasonable? I like to ignore "normal" heat and cold penalties for vampires but the extremes of space are a different story.

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>>93132876
Average WoD activities.

>>93132894
There's got to be a way to properly insulate the base. I could make whatever I'd need to keep the heat in & once it's mildly warm it wouldn't take much to keep it from freezing a vampire.

>>93132793
>ban/houserule
Any specific one you have?
>broken combo
I don't really mind those, i can always come up with another broken combo to balance each other out.

>>93132965
I'm sure there are people who would vehemently disagree with this, but my common ban is ignoring the rule that says add your Athletics to your defense.

By default it turns melee combat into whiff city, even if both you and the players take care to not put too many points into athletics. And this is already a system where guns have a LOT of advantages. I also don't care too much for weapons modifying your initiative score. I understand why it exists, but if players are swapping weapons semi frequently it makes managing turn order annoying especially without a VTT that can do it automatically. The idea is to give players a reason to use smaller/lighter weapons with lower damage mods, and I get that, but it's a little too tedious for me and there are other reasons to use smaller weapons, such as if you can conceal them in public or not (a big consideration in a modern game) as well as fighting styles. I would also advise against avoiding down and dirty combat and the beaten down tilt (unless they're fighting people who haven't been in fights before), but those are optional rules designed for games that want less combat anyway.

And yeah, I get the idea of not wanting to shut down broken stuff but there are some things that can be very busted. Like a properly built grappler can 1v1 an insane amount of things, or some merits are just plain busted like Professional Training, which straight up pays for itself in a handful of sessions I also find it redundant in terms of what it represents, we already have skill dots and specialties to cover training in something, formal or otherwise. .

These are just my opinions though, I'd suggest looking through the core yourself and seeing how you feel about these rules.

>>93131307
Psst.
The anarchs were always what you were supposed to lean towards. You weren't ever supposed to be for the camarilla

>>93133008
>And this is already a system where guns have a LOT of advantages.

Wow, just like they do in real life! If you wanna some balance, then guns are loud and you aren’t allowed guns in many places (such places rarely allow you to bring your sword too) and in many countries geting a gun will be very difficult without knowing the right criminals, but guns will always be superior option in nearly any combat situation.

>>93133462
You left your name on, Io.

And there's no need to be a sarcastic prick. Even without athletics to defense, guns still hold the massive advantage of outright ignoring defense and retaining higher damage modifiers. Plus, it becomes rather silly when you can fairly easily avoid a trained swordsman because your character plays minor league baseball. Dodging a sword is pretty damn hard actually, not as hard as dodging a bullet, but that's why guns outright ignore defense. Lessening defense so melee weapons can actually hit when wielded by skilled users is fine.

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>actually grow out of the rebellious molotov-throwing phase and start doing productivity enhancing drugs like reponsible adult
rare sight for a Brujah

>>93132581
It got 20th anniversary editions, and Katanas & trenchcoats too

People talk about serpentis, but animalism is more shitty than it.

>>93133365
I am aware that anarchs was used interchangeable with player characters, and the brujah was the main clan.

Stuff like diablerie (eat the rich) and generation is built around them.

>You weren't ever supposed to be for the camarilla
You know that it is bad when the Sabbat replaced them, to the point that the devs copy pasted the Sabbat for V5 anarchs.

>>93133492
wasn't he also the brujah prince mentioned in the princes primer book that send his entire clan to a suicide charge against werewolves because they wanted preferable treatment to the point where it was undermining his rule?

>>93134057
People hate Serpentis because it's a mess. It's snake protean with splashes of Presence and blood magic.

Animalism only starts shitting the bed at higher levels, where they need to get abstract with it. Plus it's harder to hate a discipline based on such a classic vampire ability, controlling animals.

>>93133365
Authorial intent can fuck off.

More seriously if they wanted people to play as Anarchs they shouldn't have made them boring and the other options far more engaging.

>>93134438
Animalism is fine, the main gripe I have with it is how the text doesn't give you any real authority over them or something along those lines, but hey you can always just blood bind them or something.
>>93131792
Seems interesting, I will take a look at this. Good luck with the project.

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guys read the ashcan version of cureborn?
>ghosts can't die at all
>all vampires have the vtm ventrue feeding weakness based on clans that aren't in the preview book and have papermoney as a bane?
>demons are undercover like cofd demons but closer in nature to wod demons
>sorcerers all get the magic by making deals with dark beings
>disciplines are called practices and they are exactly what you think they are, examples for vampires are iron edicts which is animalism and dominate and smoke and shadow which is obfuscate

looks like wod version 3

>>93135001
It's CofD meets Scion but you're supposed to cross-splat from the get-go

>>93135025
let's hope they manage to make crosssplat not a nightmare this time then

3rd times the charm and all that

>>93135001
>>demons are undercover like cofd demons but closer in nature to wod demons
Outcast struck me more like Changeling than Demons

Or maybe it's both lumped together

>>93135050
they have a damnation theme and mention being thrown out of the silver city or the abyss, the mixed feeling comes from the fact that lost channgeling already inherted a lot from dtf demons like what for outcasts Slipping Off the Mask could be from both as demons in wod also have a revelation form that is seperate from their apocalypse form

>>93119951
I don't know, I kind of like the gimmick.

Baali's problems, personal opinion, is that they have promise they can never deliver.

They have a great aesthetic with the classic satanist red (surprisingly not taken), but they are confusing and mostly dorks.

They are supposed to take this place as the worst of the worst, but they exist in a line that's pulled that trick like 5 times. It's never been believable to me that the Baali are so much more evil than the Tzimisce; "oooh this guy hacks up pregnant women for DEMON CEREMONIES, that's super scary" says the guy that tortures the innocent for literal centuries by turning them into a foot stool and aligning all their nerves to the surface. Like seriously, any description of the Tzimisce at their excess is way more unsettling. Path of Asakku is way more culturally threatening than diabolism.

They are supposedly a secret society and conspiracy even among the secret societies of vampires. And yet nothing about them is portrayed as particularly competent or malevolent.

The Nephandi take all the Baali's thunder as an example of the idea done correctly, in the sense you should want to kill on sight because these things are truly the worst of the worst.

With the Molochim, at least you have a twiiist that is more logical than murder teenagers on halloween for the evuls (and literally everyone hates you for it but you keep doing it anyway). You can understand how people are pressed gang into the cult.

>>93135001
>guys read the ashcan version of cureborn?
No, not yet.
>>93135036
The main reason why crossovers were a pain in the ass in previous editions is because they weren't designed together. There is a pretty decent chance they wont clash as harshly as previous versions.

>>93135025
I wouldn't say there is much Scion in there outside of it using the 2e of Scion 2e's engine. But it is a monster mash from the get go, yeah, albeit they are also supporting non-mash games too.

>>93135001
I read it when it came out. Along with the panel on it and all the other stuff they've released for it in the past I'm very impressed. I do think you've missed some stuff though and the reliance on WoD as a touchstone does lead to a lot of faulty assumptions. Not that its on you here a lot of the stuff I'm about to say isn't in the Ashcan.

>ghosts can't die at all
Well, only sort of. When the body the Dead are in dies they get ejected as a ghost and have to find a new body. If they can't they do eventually lose all of who they are and end up as a "phantasm" which is essentially an undying mindless drone. It's not technically dying but is in effect death.

>all vampires have the vtm ventrue feeding weakness...
The Hungry aren't all really vampires in the VtM sense. They're all undead and all have a hunger for something but they're pretty varied. Ascetics are a secret eating MLM, Vorare eat souls and bargain with demons, Gaki are ghost eating necromancers, etc. There are also the Black Hearts that have left their old families, removed that hunger, and now eat emotions.

>demons are undercover like cofd demons but closer in nature to wod demons
Honestly, I wouldn't really say it's much like either of those things. They're actually not full-blooded anything but someone in their family tree, even if you were adopted into it, comes from The Outside and was some sort of angel, demon, eldritch horror, whatever.

>sorcerers all get the magic by making deals with dark beings
The bigger thing with Sorcerers is sacrifice. The Families there are largely defined by what they have to trade in order to perform their magic. It might be recognition, connections, worldly possessions, or even just time and effort.

>disciplines are called practices and they are exactly what you think they are
Only thing to note here is that they're not going to be 1-5 dot things. It looks like it'll be a collection of spells across three tiers and you can just dip into whatever you want.

>>93135001
Anything about werewolves?

>>93135382
>Anything about werewolves?
Their bane still is the ATF.
Jokes aside, No

>>93135404
Oh, thanks, I thought their absence was weird.

>>93134375
>An actually intelligent brujah giving the whiners what they deserve.
Perhaps there's still hope for the clan yet.

>>93133365
That as thrown out the window in 2e and you know it.

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>>93135382
Werewolves are the Get of Lyka which is a Family in the Primal Lineage. They've actually had the most information on them published so far because two pages about them from the manuscript got "leaked" as part of the run up to the proper announcement. See picrel. I'm not sure we know anything about what they get in specific but Primals as a Lineage we've seen. They all have a "Creature" inside them that wrestles for control and when in their "wild form" it'll try to direct your actions. In addition to the wild form you also have Primal Senses which basically functions like Auspex 1 from VtR 2e. You can ask the ST questions about danger or prey. Their "Damnation" sees the Creature take control and shift you into wild form immediately too and you have to wreak some havoc before you can regain control. One of their "Torments" (CofD Vice) is Elemental Fury that is basically "I'm fighting in wild form so will throw myself at the biggest baddest thing because I'm bigger and badder. Screw my friends I'm fighting this guy"

Their Practices are Mutable Form which is shapeshfiting, Depthless Fury which is rage powers and the like, then The Stranger which we haven't seen a spell from but says this:
>Primal with this practice become the monster lurking on the fringes of society. Its spells transform the Accursed into the other, a trickster, and a witch — a thing to be loved and feared.

So the Primals are all shapeshifters of various sorts. We know the basics of the other Families. You've got the arachnid Eight Hands that are a conspiratorial spy network. Hydes (as in Dr. Jekyll and Mr...) who are alchemists that can bottle spells for later. Raptors that can take the form of birds and reptiles and are truth seekers from what I gathered. The Spawn of Vodnik that are a mix of aquatic animal shifters but unlike the rest are all part of a singular extended family. Then the Sphinx which seem to be the most sinister of the Primals and are prideful and aristocratic sadists.

Is Curseborn is going to be a limited run game?

>>93135566
It sounded like it was going to be WoD is scope from the panel at the con. I don't have an exact quote because the VOD isn't out for it yet but it was something like "We're planning a very large line not just one book or one book and a few supplements". I doubt it'll be nWoD levels of releases but it'll at least be on par with things like Scion and the TC line.

>>93132581
Technicaly, it has, but many are in another languages.
Brazil has around 6 WoD clones for instance, but all are only available in portuguese.

>>93132742
They get infected with the STD. That's how some diseases were wildly spread in WoD history.

>>93135976
>Brazil has around 6 WoD clones for instance, but all are only available in portuguese.
What are they called? I only heard of Daemon Trevas or whatever it was called.

>>93133492
I like the fact it's same artist for both characters. You can see how their art style changed over the time.

>>93135991
Daemon Trevas
Era do Caos
As Chaves da Torre
Some weird WoD with each splatbook to Vamp, Woof and Mage
Verbum (still in playtest phase)

I can't remember the 6th one.

>>93136075
thanks, I will take a look.

>>93135001
Something I've not seen enough people talk about is that you can pick either your lineage or your family as a major path and it'll give you extra stats and a special ability. So you can be a werewolf be either lean more into generalist shapeshifting or into werewolf specific abilities.

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>Presence 4 - Summon
Has anyone else used this before? I'm thinking it sounds situational as fuck. If you're pinned down I find it unlikely your ghoul or servant or whoever is going to get you before you get fucked.

>>93136671
yeah but think about it the other way, you can also summon people into your trap or to a private meeting

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>>93134881
>>93132581
Thanks. I’m hoping to finish it within the next month or so. It’s in a completely playable state, just missing a few content sections.

>>93136671
Most presence power are situational, but they're all also Very handy in their niche.
Fucking blood-hog of a discipline though, only beat out by celerity.

>>93132581
>I've been wondering why WoD never got an old school renaissance the way older DnD editions did
As an OSRfag, I can opine
OSR was part nostalgia, part critical reaction to the current state of D&D, which resulted in a back-to-basics movement, which lead to a close examination of the actual fundamentals, which then lead to a (re-)discovery of a playstyle that had essentially been dead since the 70s
For many other games, like WoD, the original intended playstyle (in WoD's case angsty/melodramatic character RP) never really died so there's no real need to replace anything
Then you've got things like Troika that are trying to be the OSR to things that are currently in publication and played (Fighting Fantasy) because queer hipsters want to talk about how the things you like are bigoted

Ok. I KNOW someone on this general has played or looked at both and gets what I mean, in Kith and Kin or really even 1st edition Changeling the Lost, can you play as a buffer/Debuffer using contracts? Specifically in the same vein as Macrosis’ Ensemble rework of Pluto from Library of Ruina? Where your contracts buffs and debuffs are the main way in which you fight? I’m gonna guess not really unless you are high Wyrd because of Glamor limits (cause I know you can technically play a “I saw a joke about hotness and light the vampire on fire”

>>93137425
>which then lead to a (re-)discovery of a playstyle

Invention of of a style that never ever existed in the 70’s. Whole OSR is based on memes, unreliable memories of fat geriatric cases, bullshiting with more unwarranted elitism and pretension than a goth meetup.

>>93137425
>like WoD, the original intended playstyle (in WoD's case angsty/melodramatic character RP)
In WOD's case it did die though.
Melodramatic character RP being thend-all-be-all is a fucking meme perpetuated by the LARP community.
Notice how much hate Martin Erricson gets for being a LARPfag that's disconnected from most of the actual WOD fanbase?
How he was gung-ho about cutting out so much shit?
It's because the greater WoD community and the LARP community are two very different beasts.
There's a larger set of content and levels of play that LARP rarely touched on, but the greater TTRPG community explored regularly that has been dead for years because of people like him thinking LARPer melodrama was the beginning and end of the game.

TL;DR: Martin Ericsson and people like him are actually retarded and driving the setting into the ground because of how out of touch they are with what made the game popular to begin with. The original playstyle of oWoD has been dead for years thanks to them.

>>93137826
>The original playstyle of oWoD has been dead for years thanks to them.
I wish this was true, but I never knew that much nor cared about them. Around here in my area people rarely know about Ericcosn and we only stayed at our lane with our games and our playstyle. I only knew more about them when Paradox bought WoD in 2015 and all those tumblr posts called him out for bullshit him and his friends did for years in LARP scene. And people to this day still don't know about them because they do not care.
And these people are normaly old people who played second edition since its insertion. Old hags that still play "the old style", untouched by the supposed Ericcson taint.
Other people who aren't old and don't know about Ericcson are just younger people who reproduce what they read on their generic Vampire Diaries tv series.

>>93137630
You can buff/debuff people just fine, it just takes a while to set shit up.

>>93137630
>can you play as a buffer/Debuffer using contracts?
Yes you can, blessing if perfection, spinning wheel, etc. are your go to contracts for that.
>Specifically in the same vein as Macrosis’ Ensemble rework of Pluto from Library of Ruina?
Straight up no idea hat any of that means
>Where your contracts buffs and debuffs are the main way in which you fight?
Yeah, buffstacking is hilarious and easy. Go for it. Pick fairest or darkling and then go from there with your personal favourites.

Yeah from what I’ve seen, changeling the Lost (especially 2nd edition) has exactly all the tools necessary for me to play an exact 1to1 copy, even if I’ll need a higher Wyrd and some specific contracts. Even the whole “I give you my strongest contract with the harshest clause, but there is a loop that lets me take on the benefits of said contract while changing you in a semi-beneficial way”

>>93137736
>Invention of of a style that never ever existed in the 70’s.
You're right, we have no idea how the guys who made D&D played in the 1970s, all knowledge was lost when they all spontaneously combusted in the year 198X.

>>93138144
yeah it's tragic, i still bring d20 to my grandpa's grave

What IS the original WoD playstyle anyway?

>>93137826
>TL;DR: Martin Ericsson and people like him are actually retarded and driving the setting into the ground because of how out of touch they are with what made the game popular to begin with. The original playstyle of oWoD has been dead for years thanks to them.
Action horror?

>>93138176
look up the old chicago by night, but in short group of neonates with no connections to the local kindred show up and throw wrench in plans

there are however differences with how other by nights book are written, with designated love interests and stuff like that

>>93138176
Young/neonate anarchs fighting against their camarrila's fathers.

>>93138176
It was just a game less focused on combat, and increased the emphasis on character dynamics and arcs. It's not really that special, but it was at the time where fighting, dungeon crawling, and character progression were paramount.

It has nothing to do with the plot of the game like other anons are claiming.

>>93138191
>other by nights book are written, with designated love interests and stuff like that
Aren't you mistaking By Night books with Love book from V5? Please, give me examples on By Night books with that approach.

>>93138229
This right here.

>>93138285
chigago by night was the one with love interests two: a mute toreador you have to save from her sire and a fledgeling brujah who needs help to understand her new condition

sorry if that was worded wrong

>>93138176
Politics & angst, usually trying to gain influence in the Camarilla & getting roped into Elder plots/jyhad

>>93138176
>What IS the original WoD playstyle anyway?
Read Baptism by Fire, the adventure that came in 1st edition

>>93138186
>>93138191
>>93138879
>>93139392
All of the above and pants-on-head stupid nineties shit on top.
That's the funny thing old WoD allowed a large range of playstyles and produced supporting content for all of them.
The only thing that tied it all together was the gothic-punk aesthetic and that all the information fed to us was purposely filtered through conspiracy-schizo lens with multiple conflicting accounts.
The main issue with Newwod is that gives us very little and tries to Tell us how to play, while Oldwod and Cofd gave us a lot and let us play however we wanted.