File: 1714417189066008.png (589 KB, 1280x720)

589 KB PNG

>>93135868
Too many problems to list. I'm not a hater, I'm actually a fan, but this is simply the reality. I'll just hit a few points fast
>the entire rule set is running on outdated principles and is in major need of a rehaul, but instead GW just bolts on more shit and minor changes every few years which just dogs the trench further
For example, 40k is one of the only wargames on the planet that still uses their antiquated IGOUGO turn system, this leads to the next problem
>player turns take long as fuck
You will often find yourself standing around waiting for 30 minutes between turns whilst your opponents slowly slogs through all the phases of his turn
>incredibly unbalanced, by design
This is done through both sheer incompetence and also by design, creates a feedback loop where the paypiggy players are constantly buying new armies and models to keep up with the current flavor of the month best units. Go to /awg/ and you'll see 90% of games by other designers don't have this issue, yet GW has had it for decades.
>The CORE mechanic of the game is not built on tactics, strategy, but on listbuilding like a trading card game instead of a wargame. The game is generally won before you even begin playing.
>Just pure simply ass retarded rules and bloat
You can charge an airplane and fight it in melee combat with a sword. Nigga.. what

>>93135868
>What makes Warhammer 40k so "bad" to play that everyone seethes about it? I mean the actual game and meta
The thing that makes is aweful to play is that the rules have not kept up with the actual scale of the game.

The core rule set of the game was designed for skrimish level games. These games you would typically see being, 1 tac squad, 1 assault squad, 1 rhino, 1 dread, a command squad with a captain, and maybe a terminator squad
It was deisgned during a time when a Land raider was a BIG model to put on the table.

Needless to say, the game has scaled WELL beyond that, and the rules are just not able to keep up. Think of it like a grocery bag, you can only put so much into the bag before the handles break. 40k crossed that point back in 6th ed, and its only gotten worse with time.

People bitch about it because people have had to watch the game get shittier and shitter with each editions because the people running the show dont understand what the fuck they are doing.
>what is that makes 40k rules and match so intrinsically bad that makes everyone say it's shit anyways and should be "other way"?
TL;DR: Rules were designed for much smaller scale games, and 40k has progressed beyond those rule sets capacity.

File: 1662539773517080.jpg (86 KB, 1080x717)

86 KB JPG

>>93136006
Ok i think i get it, but wanna know if it's true then

>The CORE mechanic of the game is not built on tactics, strategy, but on listbuilding like a trading card game instead of a wargame. The game is generally won before you even begin playing.

I was thinking on how much weight do your decisions in game have, because the more I thought about it the more it seemed like a stat check even with the dice rolling.
To give an example, I would love to read about one of your experiences as a player and how you managed a comeback or outsmarted the other player somehow, those kind of things

You know, the kind of what makes a game tick?

>>93136006
IGOUGO isn't that bad so long as the game gives you things you can do on your opponents turn. For example yugioh is just solitaire if you don't have any quick effects on the field but with them it becomes a fun game.

It's slow paced mechanically unless you have total and complete rules mastery which is improbable to achieve because now only is it bloated with plenty of exceptions to its rules but those rules are constantly being changed by the over-eager company that makes them. This doesn't fit with the tone of the game's lore or the silliness of the models themselves.

Why do Warhammer niggas need to keep playing Warhammer when they instead can hurt GW more by touching other systems and games?

>>93135868
IGOUGO - compounded by high lethality and complex turns with rerolls and stratagems.

What this means is that you will sit around for 30-40min with you thumb up your ass while your opponent does everything, and if you misdeployed, those units tend to evaporate.

>The CORE mechanic of the game is not built on tactics, strategy, but on listbuilding like a trading card game instead of a wargame. The game is generally won before you even begin playing
This was true of both Warhamhordes and Flames of War as well, which were some of the closest competition that GW has ever had.

>>93136137
What other system would you suggest to get into?

>>93136268

OPR is the most basic response, then there's xenos rampant which is more respected around here.

>>93136275
I'm already reading OPR and seems pretty straightforward and really cleaning a LOT of the bloat

But is there any other that is also interesting or tactical like >>93136053 asked?

File: 71NJZbkdHEL._AC_UF894,100(...).jpg (71 KB, 894x707)

71 KB JPG

>>93136006
>You can charge an airplane and fight it in melee combat with a sword. Nigga.. what
That's pretty bad.
When I was about 8yo, I made a chess-based game played on a chessboard. The units on each side were mostly 1-color plastic army figures like on pic, and each side had 1 airplane. And even I knew to make aircraft attackable only by stuff that could reasonably shoot it.

>>93135868
40k is the DnD of wargaming. It's everywhere you go, it occupies 99% of the market (crushing out and dooming better games to remain forever niche and die out unloved), it's full of terrible writing, it's deliberately turning its back on its much more interesting original lore to appeal to a wider mainstream audience now, and worst of all, its fans are the most obnoxious faggots who can't shut up about it. It's that simple.

>>93136006
>For example, 40k is one of the only wargames on the planet that still uses their antiquated IGOUGO turn system, this leads to the next problem

40k is also one of the only wargames on the planet that can have so much variety in lists that makes AA impossible to balance.

>>93135868
Impossible to answer because
>40k is never stable
>therefore it is never really possible to assess it

IT'S JUST DESIGNED TO SELL MINIS DUDE. The game is not even worth thinking about

>>93136006
>antiquated IGOUGO turn system

Do they still have overwatch?

>>93136387
Based

>>93136137

Why would I want to hurt GW? Just because they don't appeal to me doesn't mean they should be punished, I just won't give them business unless they sell something I want.

>>93135868
>But my question is, since I never played a single real match or a hundred, what is that makes 40k rules and match so intrinsically bad that makes everyone say it's shit anyways and should be "other way"?
The game is there to sell you the rulebooks and models. That means it's better to change the game regularly- to keep up interest, and to make sure that models that were bad yesterday are good today so that people won't just keep and play with their existing collection. This means that GW is always churning out abd selling half-tested rules to be FAQ'd later ir, better yet, to be "fixed" in the next edition they sell you.
Another reason that you hear about 40K being terrible is that 40K is the biggest game and most wargames have massive issues. You never hear about the mess that is the Batman Minatures Game because nobody plays BMG. Malifaux's move to plastic models was a fucking disgrace and a tragedy, but you've never met another human who played 1st edition Malifaux so why would you hear about it? 40K is the biggest wargame, so you hear its issues being discussed the most.
Personally I've had some very satisfying small games of 10e 40K, much more so than 9e or 4e, and if you offered to play with me then I would accept. It's not the game that keeps me up at night though, that's Turnip28.

>>93135868
>What makes it bad

It's not a single massive problem, it's a series of minor gripes that amass into a mess.

The way stat lines work and are distributed across the armies creates deadzones for game balance and often armies get trash units because they are outdone by something similar in the same slot. For example S5/6/7 weapons are largely indistinguishable because most things are T3/4 for infantry, and T6/7 for tanks, but most anti infantry weapons are S3-5 and most anti-tank is S8-10.

Things are also bloated in terms of attacks and shots available to them. There was a time when having 3 attacks was considered amazing and reserved for Lords. Now most units can spew out 5-8 attacks on average and most guns rock into the 4-6 shots bracket.

IGYG is too clunky for the game now and has led to bloated game length and weird situations where going first is a penalty. It also leads to some real junk games where you can legit win or lose by 2nd turn because you either can't hit your opponent and get blazed on their turn or you straight up cripple your opponents force before they can do anything. There is also increasingly less and less interaction between forces - alot of mechanics now feel like they bypass or loophole their way around things.

Constant changes via faq, auras, keywords, stratagems, army rules, costs etc etc adds excess game admin and the sheer number of armies leads to bloat.

Monopose models and general turn away from easy conversions has sapped alot of personal expression. Same goes for detachments and army composition due to homogeneous wargear.

Inevitably price. It's just not viable to keep the scale increasing along with the prices. Even buying from discount sellers rarely gets you good value anymore.

>>93136807
>It's not the game that keeps me up at night though, that's Turnip28.
Not to derail, but could I ask why? It seemed kind of interesting but shallow.

GW was saved from running itself into the ground only to be turned into the D&D of wargaming. There is such an emptiness to the setting now and the decision to advance the narrative and add primaris (no matter how nice some of the models have gotten) was ridiculous. Nu - Kill Team is alright but OPR has a decent rules set for that as well. Thankfully HH exists and scratches the 'old 40k' itch for me.

>>93137182
>Not to derail, but could I ask why? It seemed kind of interesting but shallow.

It's a very forgiving modelling project to get my friends into
We share a dark sense of humour and the rules are somewhat Pythonesque
The core rules are very light, but there's a lot that you can do to physically move enemy troops that make for engaging tabletop situations- running them through dangerous terrain, separating them from officers etc
Once you have your "core" troops built, you can play entirely different factions by adding a specialist unit or two. This is where the game stops being shallow to say the least.
It's not a theoryhammer or listbuilding game, it's player's and hobbyist's game, and that's just what does it for me as I get older.

>>93136033
This is only in tournaments though, everyone seems to be laser focused on competitive play. 40k is actually very fun to play at incursion level (1000 points) on a smallish table. You can get a game done in 2 hours including set up, and it limits the bullshit meta list building because power levels are balanced around a 2000 point game.

>>93135868
>What makes Warhammer 40k so "bad" to play that everyone seethes about it? I mean the actual game and meta
It’s corpo slop more than it has ever been in the past, made by morons who don’t know how to create a fun game and are instead obsessed with “muh balance” instead of silly fictional space wars.

>>93136986
>IGYG is too clunky for the game now and has led to bloated game length

If you think that's clunky, now imagine if before you even do anything with any game piece each player has to think about the order in which they activate their pieces before they even do anything

>>93137182
I've finally gotten a fairly regular Turnip group together and well and >>93137731 is also my experience. I think many people on /tg/, being former or only 40k players, mistake having a laundry list of fiddly gear options and bespoke minor abilities as TRVE DEPTH so when they seem something like Turnip which has a handful of distinct profiles, they'll think it shallow. In play you'll find that cult rules, effectively army rules in 40k and something you can swap out each game, really give you a deceptive amount of mechanical depth. For instance the Aunt's Ascendant gives you a hot air balloon which is a fun modeling project and has a stupid amount of mobility compared to other units, but it's really easy to overlook the other rule that cult gives: the ability to choose the direction enemy units retreat. Because retreating is fairly common in the game, routed models instantly die when the charging unit caches up to them, and models are required to shoot the nearest enemy unit, the level of battlefield control you get with just that rule is insane. Make enemies retreat toward your melee units, or even off the table if you get lucky. Or maybe you can't kill something, but if you get lucky and force it to retreat, you could redirect it toward a unit you don't care about so they're forced to deal with it. Or maybe plan around making a meatshield of Fodder get out of the way so you can take out the enemy leader, thus crippling their activation economy. However, because this rule only works if you have the hot air balloon, there's still plenty of counter play for your opponent when it comes to chasing that thing down or even just rolling a shitload of attacks at it until it dies from raw numerical strength if you're really desperate. Not every cult is this elaborate mind you, and many of them are purposely made simple to accommodate newer players, but I do think Turnip has more depth than your average fa/tg/uy would lead you to believe.

OP here
I have a 3d printer, should I just stick to OPR rules or is there something else you may suggest?

>>93137779
>This is only in tournaments though,
No even in casual play its like this.

>>93136683
Cuck

>>93138005
Imagine lacking the mental bandwidth to analyze the board state and prioritize and preplan moves. Same kind of retard who takes 15 minutes to do their turn in D&D. Personally, I'd consider a less mentally taxing hobby, like LEGOs or Funko Pops

>>93138326
Because the competition crowd are the noisiest online, which is where all the discussion is these days. So people think that's the way to play. Consider also that rather than drifting in from playing toy soldiers or tabletop RPG's, most recruits now will be more familiar with video game rules and conventions, which overlap more with that side than trying to write scenarios and the like.

>>93138005
This is true.

The current edition of Kill Team has alternating activations. At launch, it was lauded as a "quick 45 minute game" but all tournaments eventually set the round time to 2 hours because it's so fucking time consuming for dipshits to think about their moves for 6 space marines. And even then, most games end up going to time before the end of turn 4. In a casual environment, a Kill Team game lasts as long as a 40k game.

>>93138569
>Because the competition crowd are the noisiest online
no anon anot even then. the game is just to fucking big for the current rule set even in a casual play setting. When you have 2000 points shooting at 2000 points, even if you are not running the most try hard list, who ever is unloading first is going to take out a signifigent chunk of the other side, to the point taht they wont be able to responded with enough fire to make the fight even.

The game is just way to fucking big for itself,

>>93138603
I refuse to believe they take that long, that's insane. These niggers need chess clocks, Warmahordes was right.

>>93135868
A big problem in 40K is the IGOUGO system. Your opponent does all their moves then you do all yours.

Firstly this is really time consuming especially if you’re facing a horde army. Have fun spending 25 minutes watching your opponent move 150 gaunts.

Secondly is the problem of an alpha strike. Whoever goes first can get a big advantage to blow a bunch of the opposing models off the board especially shooty armies.


40K is also very dense both in language and in terms of the sheer mass of rules. This means turns can take an age remembering all the various rules, auras and effects which can take place. Other systems like OPR strip away a lot of this in an effort to make gaming faster pace.

40K is also trying to sell models so armies have progressively gotten cheaper points wise which has forced players to increasingly add more units (thus buying more models) a lot of systems like OPR and the like are both model agnostic and smaller scale making it easier to build an army and shortening games. They do also cater to large battles as well but it’s designed to speed it up.

>>93138800
>Firstly this is really time consuming especially if you’re facing a horde army. Have fun spending 25 minutes watching your opponent move 150 gaunts.
Alternating activations take longer.

UGOIGO allows the inactive player to plan his strategy and then enact it. Alternating activations interrupts the cognitive flow to such a degree that it actually prolongs a game on the scale of 2k points 40k.

Fat people who never went to college will say "how stupid are u to not be able to think that quick?!" and are actually the reason why both alternating activations and UGOIGO games take a long time.

>>93136268
OPR and AA-40K both seem the obvious choice.

>>93138863
>AA takes longer
Are you dumb? Are you actually fucking retarded? AA means I move one unit then they move.

>inactive player plans strategy
Again flat out lie the majority of players usually sit browsing their phones or chatting to people they don’t spend it autistically planning every move

>AA disrupts cognitive flow
No it keeps you focused on the game and both reacting to opponents moves while doing your own and planning an overall strategy

>>93138863
>Fat people who never went to college will say "how stupid are u to not be able to think that quick?!" and are actually the reason why both alternating activations and UGOIGO games take a long time.
Called it: >>93138909
>Are you dumb? Are you actually fucking retarded?

>>93138941
>offers no argument
I accept your concession

>>93138863
I'm not a regular poster but despite that I see you post enough you might as well namefag as "cognitive load" at this point.
I would agree that most activation mechanics besides IGOUGO would be unworkable in modern 40k because it's a profoundly dogshit experience where you're mashing together 2000 points of deflated points models on a table about the size of a postage stamp, with so much unnecessary bloat that games take the same length of time or more for half the turns as games during 3rd, but all that's an argument against all the bullshit I listed not against other activation mechanics.
Time and time again I see posters claim there's serious problems with shit that's a sacred cow in core Games Workshop(R) Group PLC systems but which is commonplace in alt and historical wargames.
>>93138941
You started flinging shit first so don't cry crocodile tears you hypocritical lump of shit.

Yeah w40k sucks and all, but what else is there besides OPR?

>>93139044
>I'm not a regular poster but despite that I see you post enough you might as well namefag as "cognitive load" at this point.
What is this schizo shit?

>>93139269
>recognising a repeat poster that keeps posting about the same topic with the same opinion and phrases is "schizo"
anyway you going to reply to the point I made or not?

>>93136572
well they aint balancing non-alternating activations either

>>93139269
>make retarded posts
>accuse others of being schizos
Really need to start implementing IQ tests for posting here

>>93136006
>their antiquated IGOUGO turn system
I play wargames that are often igougo only they use wooden blocks or cardboard counters. What do these toy soldier games that don't use antiquated igougo do? Do they use not-antiquated igougo? Do they use different antiquated igougo? Something that is not igougo?

>>93139641
igougo is simply way too loosely interpretable a term.
what that anon means is, in warhammer one plays activates, moves, and attacks with their entire army, then once thy are done, the other players does the same with their entire army. it is, honestly, terrible. especially because (least when i quit playing) warhammer has 0 things an enemy can do on their players turn. no overwatch or anything.

most games, hell even a solid bit of board games, nowadays do 'group activation', in which in some way your army is split up into much smaller groups. you activate a group, do all your stuff with it, then the opponent activates a group. others games do this and/or also add in overwatch, ambush charges, etc you can do too, to make things more dynamic and cut down on the downtime for each player.
theres other ways this 'smaller number activation' method can work, but the point is large swaths of downtime are not fun for the player not currently active, so better games have implemented a plethora of ways to cut down on that.

>>93139641
I'm not one of these people that thinks alternating activations is a universal panacea. If you're playing linear warfare eras that's where IGOUGO makes a great deal of sense. More reactive later eras and small unit actions is where other activation mechanics make a great deal of sense.
I haven't played any systems with straight alternating activations, where you take turns activating units, but:
Bolt Action gives you an order die for each unit that you combine in a bag with your opponent's and you draw them blind from a bag. All units will activate over a turn, but you don't know in what order.
Chain of Command has you roll order dice which correspond to unit types. Some dice allow for a double turn, others bank on the Chain of Command die which when activated allows a number of pivotal events to take place.
Bunch of different mechanics.

People reckon IGOUGO is "dated" because now systems that 40k refugees are into have adopted other methods there's more awareness of the alternatives (and some are overly excited and think it's the be all and end all), but it also makes sense for a sci-fi system particularly of roughly the sort of engagement scale 40k came from.

>>93139641
The issue with IGOUGO in WH40K is that each turn is long and beside spending very limited command points on reactions like overwatch or few rare units with reactive abilities you are essentially stuck doing nothing while enemy makes not only moves their whole army but goes through four battle phases. The IGOUGO is a decent system when each turn is relatively quick and the opponent can still react, but when you can have your enemy literally cripple your whole army on first turn because his whole army shot before you could do anything, it loses it's purpose and makes game too swingy.
>>93139044
I actually disagree with the activation mechanics point. The issue with unwieldiness comes partially from the game splitting all actions into separate phases of a single turn to a point where even charges are their own separate phase from the movement. Compare it to Conquest where units move, charge and attack as part of the single activation and actually have an action system that dictates how many actions a unit can take in one turn, standard being two different actions.

An example of when 40k's IGOUGO system wasn't a big detriment to the game:
2nd edition. Yeah we're going way back for this one.
The game size was much smaller with a focus on individual actions, missing many of the now commonplace very large/powerful warmachines and creatures, with far fewer dice being thrown around as well, overwatch actions allowed the opposing player to interrupt, and the psychics phase was a back-and-forth affair of it's own. And the designers still wanted to introduce an alternating activation system in 3rd/4th to go with the absolutely massive streamlining and cleaning up the game system had to go with the slight expansion in game size, and were not allowed to.
Plus I've played a houseruled version of 2nd where the turn system was changed to alternating where both sides alternate movement then alternating shooting (with some adjustments for numbers of units and so on) and even that was still kind of an improvement on the flow of the game because actions would provoke reactions in the moment in interesting ways.

Still, if GW were to implement an alternating activation system in 40k these days, they'd probably fuck it up amazingly and somehow do it in the worst possible manner, doing shit like giving one side even more of an advantage by being able to stack up bonus or prioritised activations through abilities and command points and shit like that, because fuck do they ever love writing in abilities that circumvent their own systems to make something 'cool'.

>>93138633
You can play 1000 points and there's deployments to match and there's the combat patrol game mode which is even smaller. It's very hard to table an opponent with a 1000 point list.

>>93135868
simply put, one side goes and then the other side goes. bad game design. it was bad in the 90s, the 00s, and it's bad now.

>>93139792
>>93139793
>>93140131
Thank you very much gentlemen for taking the time to explain it to me to so eloquently. It's been a while since I've played 40k and only older editions at that. I do remember the long waits of doing nothing but armour saves. I've fortunately never seen an army wiped on first turn but I played socially not at shops or tournaments and no one really spent a long time working on army lists that could do that, just played with what we had.

>>93135868
Contemporary GW designers learned all the wrong lessons in game design by trying to ape video game mechanics such as auras, ability currencies, etc, and have eliminated most of the point of tabletop gaming like personalization and maneuvering. The result is a game that lacks the strength of either medium. Combined with decades of bad mechanical inertia and capriciously greedy rebalancing and the game feels like it's actively wasting your time.

>>93140715
Auras and ability currencies are just fancy terms for area of effect and resource management. The issue is that they are basically gutting the base game and then patching it up with faction and unit specific add-ons.

Its astonishing that something like ASL, despite also being IGOUGO, still feels more modern than 40k in some respects purely because of OpFire, to say nothing of the other hex and counter games that do use more novel action mechanisms.

>>93139793
>Bolt Action gives you an order die for each unit that you combine in a bag with your opponent's and you draw them blind from a bag. All units will activate over a turn, but you don't know in what order.
I believe Star Wars Legion does something similar.

>>93140715
>>93140771
I think it's the focus on "synergy". A unit used to just do their thing. They had certain weapons and a statline that supported them doing certain tasks. At most an army would have a unit or two that wasn't combat oriented and instead gave a buff to something else. Now listbuilding is like magic the gathering and putting a hero in a unit and placing them next to another unit and then casting a magical stratagem spell on them gives them wildly out of proportion capabilities that has absolutely nothing to do with simulating a war. What does it have to do with recreating combat in the warhammer universe, where a unit of basic infantry might now facetank machinegun fire and pull tanks apart with their bayonets just because senor special is standing behind a shrub nearby?

>>93136359
The problem is OPR is starting to do some of the same bullshit that GW does. For example, since 3rd edition of Grimdark Future, they are starting to do that "let's update and rebalance everything at least once a month" crap that drove me away from 40k. Updating and rebalancing that frequently makes it impossible for players to just settle into an army list and play with that list.

File: IMG_4174.jpg (319 KB, 1169x1701)

319 KB JPG

>>93136006
>>93136081
There is SOME stuff for you to do during your opponents turn. Certain stratagems and abilities activate during your opponents phase.

But I agree mostly just sitting their 30 minutes while your opponent goes down their list of weapons is a bit boring.

Battles don't feel like battles anymore. Space marine battleline are reduced to mere screens for your ultra-killer crackhead brand new shiniest blender unit attached to the same character game after game. A few squads of tactical marines used to make up the bulk of an army and would be able to dish out enough damage to fight other infantry while still survivable to hold an objective.
I've played casually and in around 10~ tournaments of 10th so far and not a single player seemed to actually care about their models, their army, or creating any sort of story. Half of them bought their entire army within the past few months of their busted whatever the fuck crazy rules that gw released were and slop batch painted them and called it a day.
L shape ruins are cancerous and make every battlefield look sterile. Wow. The same generic cityscape ruins to fight on for years... so much fun. (Don't say play with other terrain, with how lethal everything is, nobody in their right mind would play without them... exposed to enemy = 100% dead unit)
So many random mission cards encourage you NOT to fight the enemy??? Stand in 4 corners and do nothing. Do nothing on an objective. Do nothing on your home objective. Why would my tyranids be staring into the battlefield edge "deploying homers" instead of killing the prey right infront of them? So stupid.
The game is not for fans of warhammer 40k or for hobbyists, it's for little schizo zoomers who religiously salivate over the next balance patch so they can find some new way to win the game turn 1. I just got an HOUR LONG auspex tactics video recommended to me about how the core rules fucking changed again and I just laughed. I used to scoff at the grogs for saying how hard it is to play with all these changes, but having to re-learn half the rules in the game after a 2 month break is absolutely ridiculous.

>93139641
>Do they use not-antiquated igougo? Do they use different antiquated igougo?
Fuck everyone who replied to this.

>>93142513
Yeah, I feel like parts of synergy are basically overdone. I understand units like servitors and arcos which are supposed to be dependent on their handlers, but at this point you are able to buff any squad out of whazo.

Still, I think that part of a reason why it's such a problem is that they insist on every modifier being nearly slotted into -1/+1 range and standard roll having 1/6th chance of either passing or not. I mean, at this point statlines are basically flattened to a point where it's feasible for guardsmen to tear into tanks with their bayonets.

>>93142646
>play a few tournaments
>full of waacfags who buy their armies to the meta
>L shape terrain cancer
Problem is you played competitive which is easily the worst form of 40K. Narrative play/campaigns are where kino enjoyment is for the hobby. Sure there’s some real autists but their autism is writing a 50 page backstory for their army with half the models being named (bonus if they write the names on the bases). Tournament autists are rules lawyers or waacfags and both are on the level of TCG faggots. Smelly, unbearable faggots who do nothing but shit up the hobby.

>>93142646
>Space marine battleline are reduced to mere screens for your ultra-killer crackhead brand new shiniest blender unit
Play a different game. Chain assault Rhino Rush death stars was the measuring stick by which 3rd-4th armies were measured. If you couldn't stop the Rhino Rush, you weren't competitive.

40k has always had stacking buffs into your blender unit and exploiting the assault rules as a dominant strategy. Honestly, it's more skillful and interesting than Tau or Guard shooting you off the table, when those armies are dominant.

>>93135868
OPR is better at the rules-light casual wargame experience that 40k 10e is trying to get at. It might not be what kind of game you want, in which case neither 40k nor OPR are going to be a game you want to play, even though 40k has a few more mechanics as a vestigial hanger-on from previous editions. Something more structured, where individual stats and unit loadouts matter more than a +1 to a roll every so often.

As an example, 40k 10e has a general system where every unit has 1-2 unique abilities, and then often 1-2 'general' abilities shared between models. However, 90% of the time, the unique abilities of a unit are just a renamed version of an ability that's generic - There's no consistency at all in why two models from different ranges have the exact same ability, named different things, sometimes even with slight wording differences because fuck editing I guess. OPR much more consistency uses universal special rules to keep unit profiles consistent and simpler.

>>93143569

Opr could benefit from moving to a d10 system to allow for more granularity. However, it is extremely unlikely as it wouldn't be a popular move and the game already has an established fan base who found the extra action of shooting and charging with a -1 to hit on both attacks too complex and redundant in the context of the game.

>>93136081
Most idiotic point ever made by defenders of IGOYOUGO.
Hey you know what gives you plenty of stuff to do? Our opponent activating a single unit, then you doing it as well.

>>93144474

I think xenos rampant has pretty decent igougo, as units can make only one activation (move, shoot, charge or some exotic actions like calling fire support, regenerating or using psychic powers), which has a chance of failure. A failed activation leads to a change of the active player. The passive player can also react to enemy shooting by rolling to see if the targeted unit can shoot back and some units can also counter-charge.

The whole igougo thing wouldn't be as much of a problem were it not for the lethality and precision of shooting, you can focus your entire army on destroying the most dangerous enemy units which is always what will happen, it makes going first and hiding units extremely influential, and it isn't fun to have your favourite units die before they can do anything. If there were limits to ranges and targets it would split up the battlefield and make movement and deployment more meaningful and there would actually be a need for tactics rather than just following an algorithm.

>>93140247
40k would be light-years better if they pushed ahead with giving 3rd edition the alternating phases 2nd edition Epic had.

They want people to field larger armies because this generates money
>but this takes longer to play
>so they streamline the rules
>but this reduces depth
>so they add unique special rules
>but this makes armies too tough
>so they increase the wounds and toughness
>but this slows the game down
>so they increase damage output
>but this kills too many models per turn
>so they decrease points to get more models on the table


It's entirely broken.

>>93145914
The inevitable result when the company sells both the models and the rules and specifies they are not model agnostic rules. Its been interesting to watch 40k slowly bloat in size, early editions armies were what would probably now be considered Combat Patrol size. Sadly I think 40k is steadily following the footsteps of what happened with WHFB. Armies get cheaper as they look to try and shift more plastic. This inevitably alienates newer players who find the cost of entry growing exponentially. While 40k doesn't suffer quite as badly with the army neglect WHFB did its still nonetheless seen its share especially for people like Eldar.

>>93135868
>overwrought setting
>too expensive
>rules are clunky and change constantly
>minis are grotesque, unecessarily complex

That being said I love 40k because it keep some truly dreadful idiots busy, like a sheltered workshop

>>93145914
Honestly the Rending AP system horriby fucking broke 40k and the fact that there are people who still refuse to see this is proof that the majority of the fandom is fucked.

Honestly if James pulled his head out of his ass he could "fix" the main issues with 40K in a single edition.
>reduce the amount of models, or the amount of rolls (pick one)
Want to have lots of models in every army? Start evaluating actions as a unit, instead of every individual in the unit. Use a CRT or something. Otherwise have fewer minis on the board like earlier editions.
>alternating phases
You hopefully elected to reduce the amount of minis! Now you are more like a skirmish game and playing to your strengths. So now you can crib from yourself and use MESBG's framework. Your basic engine is about man-to-man combat, this smooths out the rough edges from that basic system.
>fixed lists
Yep. No list building. A codex compliant Space Marine demi-company looks like a specific list of troops. You pick that army, you play that army. If there's any list building at all its just to customize your support unit selection, aka do you want just one Land Raider or a Rhino and Predator?
>rules are actually free
Self explanatory.
>rules are entirely digital
Errataing shit is retarded. Wahapedia is a better service than the actual service. Copy that format.

These would cover it. However they would piss off shareholders, and piss off fans so you will continue to get your shitty slop game that sucks to play alongside overwrought, CAD-designed minis.

What is the consensus on 30k rules-wise? Since it has the whole 'reaction' mechanic, probably as an excuse for GW to not fully commit to alternating actions.

>>93148361
>What is the consensus on 30k rules-wise
Eh, overall not bad, the genreal consensus is thus:
>Core rules themselves
Overall fine, they ascribe more to the earlier versions of the game 3rd-7th ed style rules with most not changing, the introduction of some new ones that are quite interesting like the breaching mechanic. Overall not really a downgrade not really an upgrade, just a change. Biggest point of contention is the WS to hit chart change, and the change to dreads making them asininely good now to the point of you really need to put a limit of 1 per 1k points in an army.
>Reactions
For the most part people are ok with them, but there is a general agreement that they are a bit over powered, namely intercept being so strong that is cucks the fuck out of deep striking badly. Return fire is equally brutal because it just results in mutually assured destruction.
>Balance changes
Again another meh spot, with 3 major points of conflict. One being Plasma possibly over nerfed being AP4 base with a breaching 4+ (Gives a AP2 on a wound roll of a 4+) from originally being AP2. Granted before plasma was the end all be all answer to everything, it going to AP 4 was a bit much, AP3 with breaching 4+ would have been better.
Two the brutal special rule honestly being just to fucking strong, epically since its typically only found on S8+ weapons making it fucking insanely strong.
Three the general reduction of blast templates. GW went really hard on wanting to nerf blast templates this was around the time of them changing how blast worked in 40k as well so there seems to be some over lap with the hatred of templates.

>Legion balance
This is probably the biggest issues of HH 2.0, which is not so much a core rule problem, but a problem with a lot of the legions feeling siloed from each other, in that the balance between legions is all over the fucking place, with some of them being like SSS tier, while others are dog shit tier.

>>93146291
I left 40k when third dropped and came back for 5th.it wasn't to hard to pick up the rules. I left again during 7th, and agreed to a pickup game in 9th.it was totally alien. It was just absolutely full of different names for the same thing, that was, ultimately, "spend a cp to reroll". Within the time it took me to paint up some sisters to play socially with old mates, 10th arrived, and I've played one game of it. Out of all of the editions I've played, 10th is the one that finally shut me off
It's legitimately the most bland, boring, phoned-in version of 40k so far, and possibly the worst wargame ive played overall. I understand that they write rules to sell models, and fair enough. But in this edition I just did not get the feeling that anybody writing the rules had a clue what to do. It felt like a bunch of schoolkids had written the rules, and whenever a conflict or problem within the rule cropped up, their answer was to create another rule to address it, rather than going back and fixing the problem.
I've said it before on here that I feel like the more they've claimed to "streamline the game", the more bloated it becomes. It just isn't an enjoyable game at all anymore imo

>>93147774
All are decent except the fixed lists. Sure, there should be structure but super fixed lists go against the "your dudes" approach that this series desperately needs to come back to.

>>93148361
If you enjoyed 5th-7th you’ll enjoy it

>>93149283
All that rule errata and commentary is wack, brevity seems like a foreign concept to the writers. There's a problem when you need to elaborate on every single corner-case that might happen.

>>93138014
Too bad Turnip28 and TC both have that overly grotesque "this is someone's sexual fetish" aspect to them they're aping from that one artist that makes them deeply unpalatable to me.
Can't really make me care about the modelling/conversion potential when every single model is either that one plague doctor mask or a nurglespawn.
Looking over the kind of stuff that gets put out for both practically makes me wish for nu-GW's boring-ass takes on Spess Muhreens nevermind actually fun and attractive sculpts.

>>93138758
>These niggers need chess clocks
lmao my local hobby stores have actually started selling those for the 40K/KT crowd.

>>93138758
Oh people absolutely do. NTA but I started playing again with a mate after being dormant since 5e. I was accustomed to 2 hour games and it quickly became clear they were grinding. Through. Everything.

I had to head off after 4 hours and we hadnt come close to finishing. He said his average game length was 4-5 or even as long as 7 if it went down to the wire. Just so much wasted time fussing with setup, pissing about and humming and harring over every little thing.

Probably not representative of the norm but it definitely had potential for bloat and to enable people to stretch one game out to a length that could easily have accommodated two.

>>93150033
Fixed lists are more of a roleplaying focus rather than custom lists. If you have no options to try and get some netdecked autism combo your guys can be as custom as you like. Everything on the model visually becomes a counts as. When historicals fags play a British infantry platoon it's always gonna be the same, but it's your platoon with your men, like Jenkins on the Bren with his laces untied. You also end up with a very tightly designed vision of what your faction is supposed to excel at and be weak at. A fighting game character is a fixed list (move list) and people are able to express themselves through play just fine in that.

It's better for the health of the game, as long as the lists are designed around lore and not muh comp balance.

>>93136651

This. 40k isn't even really a game. In order to be a game, you need to have a stable ruleset and 40k gets a rules overhaul every few months and points updates every few weeks. It has no form. It's intellectually infuriating.

File: static-assets-upload76002(...).jpg (73 KB, 1080x1019)

73 KB JPG

>>93135868
In between turns, I left the gaming club, went across the street to a bar, got a beer and ordered a sandwich to go, walked back, and still had time to each a bit before it was my turn again. Me not even being there didn't even matter because it's not like I understand the 5 different layers of rule interactions and exceptions that are specific to his faction and force composition. Unless you go full tourney WAACfag retard and study this this compulsively, the other person's actions are a black box and you only have a vague understanding on how to use your own army to counter.

The safest strategy is to get yard hitting units and just alpha strike as hard as possible. A wargame is based of strategies and tactics against a live opponent, but the rules load makes it actually impossible to actually implement anything meaningful. You never really understand the consequences of the opponent's actions, or even your own. It's just blindly smashing your guys into his guys and hoping that you fulfill the byzantine conditions to activate your "I win" button before your opponent does.

All of that of course makes turns take forever as you have to make decisions based of vague information. You basically don't have enough information to act decisively, so both sides dither and waver over everything.

Also, any table game where you don't interact with it for 20 minutes or more at a time is just shit design. I'm here to play with my little space men, the game should feature me playing with my little space men. Not even chess has you totally checked out and not interacting with the game for extended periods of time and that game has a reputation for staring and the board and thinking a lot.

>>93135868
Overpriced unbalanced garbage.

>>93150109
This is ultimately why it’s pointless to buy a codex since within 3 months it will be fucking redundant. As for brevity I just imagine the rules team are the kind of fags who huff their own farts as they write pseudo-legalese rules.

>>93150114
I’m not surprised, I’ve stopped playing anything beyond KT or combat patrol/boarding action because the autistic retards at my lgs seem determined to drag every match out as long as possible

It's just not fun to take turns obliterating everything with 1mm of its toe sticking out from cover on a symmetrical map of identical L-shaped ruins. Most of the gameplay is having your massive, barely fitting on the board formations hiding and then moving onto giant pie plate objectives. Then you activate half a dozen abilities to make your enemies instantly die. Then on their turn you activate another half a dozen abilities to slow down your enemy from making all your guys die instantly. Then by round 3 90% of the board is dead and the game is decided.

Never played 40k nor have I read any rules but I once saw 4 guys try to play at an lgs. They carted in boxes on carts and chose the largest at the lgs. They cleared the nice hand made terrain (the lgs owners artsy wife made it and they look really cool) and plopped down these unpainted "offical" gw plastic terrain walls. They then bickering for about an hour on the placement of their L or V shaped walls. Then they began to pull out boxes of their guys and bickered some more about the their placement. All in all they didn't actually start playing until 3-4 hours after arriving at the store.
That observation made me never want to touch the game.

>>93136986
>Monopose models and general turn away from easy conversions has sapped alot of personal expression.
THANK YOU, jesus fuck, I have most models nowadays, that leave no room for costumization

Cuz it's toys, man.

The rules have always been tertiary.

>>93135868
my only problem with OPR is how crushingly expensive all the wargear is.

i was trying to build out one of my 40k armies, and a unit with all the options and guns ended up being 3x the cost of a naked unit. it was obscene , its incredibly punishing to try to build all your options.

i fucking hate it. if there's one thing that drove me up the wall about older editions of warhammer its feeling punished for including cool bits instead of leaving them on the sprue, and OPR has that problem possibly worse than warhammer.

How do you feel about playing "alone" or by yourself against an algorithm (NPCs)

I want to learn but my friends aren't around until the weekends and even so we all have work to do. Is there some scenarios to try out and get a feel of the game by yourself?

>>93153621
i know some people play online with tabletop simulator. it got a lot more popular during lockdowns

>>93149283
10th GSC codex is usable, but god damn it is silly.
Metamorphs have a skill that if everyone has autopistol they get to move 6" in response to being shot and losing a model (a T4 W1 Sv5+ model, but that is another issue). Otherwise they move d6" They can get stuck in melee with this movement.
The thing is if you give them an icon now someone is missing an autopistol so the gimmick of a 6" is lost. If you attach a leader and it does not have an autopistol, it is also gone.
Now the funny thing is. That skill is situational ability at best since you can just stand 7.1" away and ignore it, while the times that it would matter to move usually a single 1" was enough to get into melee or contest and objective.
The entire extra bonus is rather pointless when you are loosing handflamers in exchange to move 6" and survive the shooting.
10th has a lot of this bizare rules that are at best a trap for new players.
Oh and Sisters of Battle can pull crap like 40" movement without needing this many conditions

>>93153197

That's a matter of taste. Opr runs the same math formula behind all upgrades, high ap gets really expensive quickly. 2000 pts of opr is like those comfy 3rd edition battle report armies, a couple of squads and maybe one or two vehicles. For older guys it's very nostalgic and soothing. For never players used to bigger armies, maybe not so much. You could always play 3000-4000 pts to scratch that itch though.

>>93153197
If you listen to the AWAT podcast they explain a lot of war-games should operate with a set algorithims for points costing everything in game. OPR has a base formula which sets the price for units, upgrades and abilities. This is why they can approve fan made content as they can run it all through the same formula to cost everything. OPR sits what old 40k used to be like where it was firmly skirmish battles of a handful of units. Just check any pre-4/5th codex.

If you want an examplee of a badly balanced game just look at Kings of War. Its widely believed everything is just an arbitrary balancing on what the devs feel. Hence most "competitive" kings of war the armies are virtually the same.

>>93154554
Has that (or any other game's) algorithm been shared anywhere that you know? I'd be interested in seeing what they use.

>>93154672

The older version of the point calculator used to be a pdf, you could check out the sharethread and ask for it there.

>>93154759
Thanks

>>93154280
Sisters are getting 40" moves?

>>93135868
GW makes the most popular tabletop games by a gargantuan margin. Marry that to the modern internets discourse being wholly split between "it's shit" and "it's perfect" and you get the overwhelming sense that people either love or hate the game(s).
No GW game is perfect, but they are not nearly as bad as people would have you believe. If you show up to a local store or just play some games with friends, you will probably have a blast. Competitive play (as in Tournament) is frustrating because you are trying to abuse the rules as much as possible to win, rather than simulate military tactics or enjoy the narrative of the battle. This might be because GW writes rules that are able to be abused, or they are intentionally abusable, I don't know.

>>93154554
>OPR has a base formula which sets the price for units, upgrades and abilities. This is why they can approve fan made content as they can run it all through the same formula to cost everything.
This sounds like my kind of autism where I want to make my own models, print them and stat them

>>93136572

It wouldn't be impossible, it would just take work. Work that the most profitable miniatures company in the world could afford to pay for, but they don't.

Specifically, though, their internal justification for not doing AA is they claim that players don't want to be forced to make a move every few minutes; they want to take long breaks and get a snack while their opponent is moving and so on.

>>93137996

They are *not* obsessed with "muh balance" their balancing is almost always veering towards making their chosen factions wildly overpowered. Balance makes gameplay better, and GW being actively antagonistic towards good balance (thanks Jervis) is a big part of why the game is trash.

>>93143409

The one thing competitive players figured out was what terrain actually makes 40k playable. If you try to play on a "normal" table, your units will just die because everything is way too killy.

>>93144058

Granularity of dice is not an issue, that's a myth by people who don't understand game design.

>>93146291

No, it didn't, it's just their weapon stats system that sucks. I remember when weapons without AP 3 were considered useless. The idea that space marines could shrug off autocannon shells was stupid.

>>93148361

The core ruleset is fine, things like battle cannons being S8 AP4 3" blast is not. They should be 5" pie plates that penetrate Astartes armor.

>>93150172

Sounds like he was analysis paralysis on everything. Don't play with people like that. As a TO I will give those people game losses if they play slow after a warning.

>>93153621

It's generally only the bailiwick of the terminally socially impaired.

File: Ratmen Cleric.jpg (441 KB, 1448x2057)

441 KB JPG

I printed and painted the Ratmen Cleric from OPR AoFQ. Fun stuff.

>>93156714

Please elaborate, this sounds interesting.

>>93158684

So 40k can already simulate a higher granularity with things like FNP or other conditional/successive rolls. The problem is in the lack of mathhammer skills on the part of the design team, not the use of d6's.

>>93135868
40k is the wargame people bitch about the most because it's the only non-skirmish, non-historical game anyone plays. What, is Warmahordes going to rise from the dead? Not under fucking Steamforged.

>>93158740

Ok, but I was talking about opr. It also has extra rules to give units more granularity.

>>93158922
So if it already has levers for more granularity, why does it need even more, poster number >>93144058 ?

>>93158922

Ok, then I think we were talking about different things.

>>93152048
It sounds like you're just shit at it to be honest. There are plenty of things you can do in your opponents turn, many stratagems only function in your opponents turn like reactive moves, overwatch etc. In fact overwatch was so powerful it required a nerf. War gaming in general rewards not being a moron that can't memorise a few pages of rules.

>>93158960

Because at the moment it has two stats, quality and defense, both of which are on a d6 basis. This means that there's very little difference between a human, skaven and orcs.

>>93135868
Once I tried the alternate activation system, I couldn't go back to IGOUGO. To scratch my 40k itch, I just play the skirmish version of grimdark future, which, while lacking nuance, is easy enough for my wife and friends and even gets them hyped enough for them to read the army list and try to compose their armies

File: GenConPart1_10-600x357.jpg (60 KB, 600x357)

60 KB JPG

>>93135868
>what is that makes 40k rules and match so intrinsically bad that makes everyone say it's shit anyways and should be "other way"?
Instead of a giant post with lots and lots of different (albeit relevant) points, I'm going to try to sum up the single biggest issue.

The rules and unit stats in 40k are not designed to simulate a fictional reality, or to produce a fun, interesting, or robust game experience. The rules are designed to maximize unit turnover between editions, and to create a sense of FOMO in the player base, and therefore sell more models. That is the core issue: GW no longer cares about making a good GAME, they only care about the game insofar as it provides a framework to maximize PROFIT.

This is different than essentially every other game company out there. Absolutely everybody else wants to make a profit, so they start with what they think will be a good game design/concept and move forward from there. *GW* on the other hand, starts with "what do we think can make us the most money", and backfills a game around that; if a good game results, it's purely accidental, because *making a good game isn't their motivation*.

Fucking loads of companies are mismanaged or incompetent or even criminally negligent - believe me, I play Battletech; I know about mismanagement. That happens in the game industry all the time. But everyone BUT GW is trying to *make a good game* as their primary motivation, and letting profit result from making a good game. GW is the opposite of that. Making a good game is entirely irrelevant to their motivation.

>>93135868
>Warhammer 40k so "bad" to play
GW current bussiness model is play aspect is secondary and with this comes whole load of crap decisions in design

>>93136986
>There was a time when having 3 attacks was considered amazing
I have seen in 8ed some Leman Russ with some kind of autocannon spewing IIRC 20 shots using some Regiment rule to double shot it to 40 shots, not counting sponsons

>>93160308
>40 shots
Of which 6 shots will hit and 1 will wound, which then has a 75/25 chance of being saved anyway on the 4 consecutive rerolls.

>>93160308
>8ed
Yeah, that's nu40k. 3rd/4th and even 5th, 3 shots was a lot. The dual AC Russ getting 4 shots was a massive thing. The only thing that fired more than that was the Vulcan Mega Bolter, which was a super heavy tanks main gun/titan gun, and later on, the Punisher Gatling, which was the main gun of a Russ and hosed 20 S6 AP- shots and was infamous for horde clearing. But prior to that, anything above 4 shots was the realm of super heavy units that only saw the board in special Apocalypse games or by agreement between players.
6th, and 7th, really went sweaty with super units and a gazillion shot/attack profiles, and 8th and onwards compounded it. Most nu40k players don't believe that a 10 man tax squad was once a nightmare to fight and could clear, take, and hold, an objective all on their own, without support. Bolters used to be feared.

I can't see it discussed yet but
>True line of sight
Is massive for me.

At a game I had my officer at the back of my army picked out from behind a massive ruin by AT fire because there was a little chip in the terrain where his arm was visible.

I couldn't believe it but sure enough at model height you could see that little speck. Dutifully deleted at the back in full cover turn 1.

It punishes you so heavily for making cool models. You want a heroic base? Lol can see you over that wall.

I watched a dark eldar player snap the spikes off his vehicle in a tourny over this shit.

>>93160937

yeah, that's definitely one thing in modern 40k that has been confounding to someone who started to play around 4/5e. Base infantry squads could actually exist and not immediately get scorched off the board if they dare to not hide in an L shaped ruin or have some character attached to make them not-shit.

>>93161048
I don't get it, is this really whats considered a true line of sight? Sounds ass. Besides arent you supposed to shoot at nearest target or easiest one? Or is that something that was removed too after 2nd edition

>>93161048
back in the day you were supposed to ignore spikes and banners and shit like that and only have sight if you can see their body. now its just fucking stupid.

>>93166202
I always thought that is the only logical reason

Like if you're pointing to a CSM you have to hit his body, tentacles and appendices, but obviously spikes and shit don't count

Still it's a tabletop game but also this can be resolved with common fucking sense, or at least consider a "hitbox the size of the base and the height of the head

>>93161048
That sounds like a raw deal mate. What version of rules were you using?
Things have changed over the years. In 2nd ed a wall was an obstacle and
>if a model is only covered up to its waist or shoulders it's fair game to shoot and be shot at
with the implication that below waist or below shoulder it was not eligible to shoot or be a target.
That "shoulder or waist" grey area is very poor writing. Rules should never insert ambiguity into rules because it invites a rules argument. It's unforgivable here because the insertion is obviously, unarguably, and unambiguously ambiguous.
I don't think 3rd edition made any mention of waist/shoulder for cover. The LOS diagram is a little sketchy as it looks like the far right marine might be able to see over the sloped front of the whirlwind to the far left deldar.
4th edition introduced wording about "minor part" including toe, banners, antennae, gun barrels, etc and it said LOS must be to the body but didn't say what counted as body. That toe doesn't count implies that "torso only" could be argued like how "body shot" in boxing doesn't mean head or arms.
A few later editions have carried on this ornamentation-excluded rule and have said arms, legs etc do count as body. It doesn't look like the exclusions survived into 8th which, unless I've missed something, just says any part.

>>93135868
To me, it's the strict ",igo-ugo" turn sequence. It's just such a boring drag.

>>93138167
Unironically killteam and warcry.
No matter if you print, use 3rd party stuff or buy for gws silly prices, these two games are actually good. Adeptus titanicus too, but nobody plays it

>>93138863
>Alternating activations take longer.
True. But you get to activate in between too, so it feels less.
Imagine driving a car for 35 minutes compared to standing in a traffic jam without movement for 20 minutes. The later "feels" longer and more boring even if you need less actual time. That's 40k.

>>93154423
This is msotly what I do with older editions of 40k anyway. We just play bigger points limits (it doesnt always scale perfectly but at apocalpyse level we like most stuff dying and having squads of jsut 3 dudes left is fun) and it feels fun as we can have the larger armies just with more detailed (arguably meanignless in grand scheme of the battle) stuff. Granted when we play 2nd edition it takes ages once we reach melee but the depth is there and we arent tourneyfags who have to play within 2 hours.

>>93150110
NTAYRT, but I find the aesthetic revolting, so I ignore it. I use Warmahordes pirates and Reaper conversions for my army, and it’s utterly and completely fine. The guy I play the most often has such a deeply SLVDGECORE army that it’s almost a self-parody, and that’s fine, too.

>>93156100
It’s a lot of fun. The builder is locked behind a $5/mo Patreon, but I use it all the time. You are locked into certain design concepts if you want to have your army “validated,” like 3/5/10 man units and certain wound:damage ratios, but the calculator will tell you which units are busted and how to fix them. I rebuilt the entire codex for Vampire Coast, and it’s completely balanced against my friends’ standard lists.

>>93172116
That sounds pretty kino
I want to try the expanded rules as well, haven't found them online

>>93135868
Something regular players seem oblivious to since their brain is literally parasited by years of 40k but is pretty obvious when you play, like me, once or twice a year:
It just doesn't fucking looks or feels like what it is supposed to represent. Actually it generally go against what your instinct tells you. Think your tank should face the direction it's going to? That your plane can't shoot a target behind it? That your dudes behind a fully closed wall are safe from being charged? Think you can use cheap infantry as a living shield for more elite infantry? Wrong, wrong, wrong and wrong. It just looks so fucking ridiculous.

Old editions are clunky and antiquated but at least you wouldn't drift through the battlefield with your tank while firing from your antenna...

>>93150033
No. Having different FOCs for different "company types" was one of the best improvements on 40k listbuilding that Flames of War did.

>>93150033
Space marine chapters have fixed organization charts. Making fixed lists based on those organization charts and making similar charts and lists for other factions only makes sense and would be healthy for the game, as the game would have to be won using tactics and strategy rather than through listbuilding.

Many historical games do this and the focus is still squarely on "Your Dudes" if you want it to be. In fact, TOE-based fixed lists is all the more narrative since now your army feels like part of an actual military rather than a random smattering of random units cobbled together

>>93156628
Lmao.
Their 'internal justification' I'm sure supported by 'dude trust me' research that is 'confidential.'

>>93142646
A Chad, a King

>>93143499
>Chain assault Rhino Rush death stars was the measuring stick by which 3rd-4th armies were measured. If you couldn't stop the Rhino Rush, you weren't competitive.

But at least chain assault rhino rush MAKES SENSE IN THE WORLD OF THE GAME. Yeah, of course a bunch of heavily armored transports riding up and disgorging a bunch of angry gorillas in power armor is going to be scary, IT MAKES SENSE and feels like a viable tactical choice. Compare this to "my super duper primarch character joins this unit and makes them super duper strong unkillable death machines, also I get a million special abilities that feel ripped out of a MOBA and use them to shoot your entire army off the table in the first couple of turns, while your army has no opportunity to react i.e. scramble for cover etc."

Modern 40k competitive play DOES NOT FEEL LIKE A BATTLE. Rhino rush DID. It's that simple.

>>93143409
Narrative play has the same problems: It feels artificial. Strategems, special characters, tanks playing identically to infantry and essentially just being big infantry units gamewise, everything being way too lethal etc. It's the rules. It has everything to do with the rules. Older editions didn't have this problem: it only started being a problem with 8th and onwards, though 7th ed formations were a precursor

>>93150033
'Your dudes' now means whatever the meta is and fuck the actual faction and lore, forcing FOC with tactical marines would reduce this

>>93159124
Shut up you repulsive fucking cuckold, he and everyone else is correct and you're a faggot, fuck off with your paypigging

>>93153671
A well-adjusted adult is not able to bear the smelly, autistic, boot-licking paypigs that infest this hobby. If you can enjoy playing a solo video-game or reading a book you can enjoy single-player TT, however 8th+ 40k can't be enjoyed in any format

>>93180216
Meant for >>93156751

>>93143499
>rhino rush
Uh oh, someone wasn't putting enough terrain on the board!
Seriously, every problem that's even remotely legitimate about 3rd/4th has an answer and that answer is terrain. Play cities of death.

>>93180060
The gamey part is how you can exploit the consolidation rules to have them run across the field, which feels as goofy as the movement system exploits that exist today.

>use them to shoot your entire army off the table in the first couple of turns,
Like 5e guard? 6e-7e Tau with Riptides?

>Modern 40k competitive play DOES NOT FEEL LIKE A BATTLE. Rhino rush DID. It's that simple.
Cope. It felt like a battle because you were 10yo at the time.

>>93180237
Then pseudo-grogs bitch and whine about "muh L-shaped ruins". There's no pleasing these fags.

>>93181587
>Like 5e guard? 6e-7e Tau with Riptides?

Good thing 3e guard and tau couldn't do that shit.

>>93182047
Yes, but Tau had Fish of Fury, so it evens out.

>>93136986
>>93152573
On top of that, most models nowadays come loaded with tons of bullshit on them and people will applaud that because it's "SO MUCH DETAILED!!!! :O"
It's also a pain to paint. Even the most basic trooper needs as much detailing as the most decorated general/lord in the army.

>>93136268
For 40K:
>OPR GF 2nd Ed
>9th Ed with AA
>2nd Ed
>3.5 Ed
>Kill Team

Non-40K (the ones I've tried and liked at least):
>Gaslands
>Bolt Action
>Chain of Command

Avoid Battletech and Infinity at all costs, they're far worse than 40K.

>>93148817
>>Legion balance
Where do the Iron Warriors fall? Also, what about Auxilia and AdMech?

>>93184111
Avoid Kings of War as well

>>93156100
They lock it behind their patreon but in return they help balance it so your stuff. As for STLs they may even let you advertise the STLs as I believe the OPR people have some agreement with MyMiniFactory

File: gokupuking.jpg (15 KB, 220x220)

15 KB JPG

>>93184111
So this is the power of opr shills. Gaslands aight tho.

>>93184256
>muh OPR shills
That you screamingnidanon?

>>93184111
Battletech is great.

>>93136359
>But is there any other that is also interesting or tactical
No. If anything they made it worse in that regard.

Opr might be bad but at least they're trying to make a game instead of a product and lifestyle to consume. The bar is low but 40k is actually just that bad.

>>93142646
>>93142554
Okay boomer

>>93136268
>>93136359
OPR is basically 40k with all the pointless bullshit stripped out. the problem with that is that 40k is a super boring game and the pointless bullshit distracts from that. you take it away and you basically have a thought experiment in how boring the underlying mechanics are.
Xenos Rampant was mentioned by another anon. that's another one you can use your existing collection for, and is much more of a game. in the sense that players have interesting decisions every turn and the decisions they make will decide the outcome.

>>93184111
>other games
I mean there's a lot. gaslands is definitely a good rec and super cheap to play. chain of command is pretty interesting (more along the same design lines as xenos rampant).

If you really like the 40k *setting* you can't go wrong with epic. It's various editions are some of the best games GW ever did. its 4th edition Epic Armageddon is especially beloved, but its 2nd edition has a big following too. there's also warmaster if you want a big battle warhammer fantasy game (and it handles historical and LOTR and a few other things well too).

beyond that, there's a lot of companies that try to apply the GW mindset to skirmish games. warmachine, malifaux, infinity, etc. they're all in the "used to be good" camp with a lot of loyal die-hards hanging on at this point, much like 40k was 20 years ago. I mostly wouldn't bother with those. if you just want to mix shit up you can check out osprey's line of rulebooks, they sponsor a lot of creative and unusal game designs (gaslands and xenos were both printed by them).
mostly just try shit that looks interesting, there's a fucking ton out there. proxy, check shit out, see what clicks for you and your friends. dont buy something until you play it a few times.

>>93184111
>Avoid Battletech
I gave battletech a try, because mechs are cool. Both games was just endlessly checking tables and modifiers, only for the entire game to be decided on who rolled the luckiest crit.

For a game with 2-5 models per side played on a hexmap, it's insanely fiddly. Too much squeeze for not nearly enough juice.

Thanks for reading my blog

>>93138880
>AA-40K
Do you mean just play 40k but with alternating activation or is this an actual ruleset?

>>93186183
nta, I assume that's what he means. but honestly at that point you might as well just OPR. that and the old edition suggestions (other than nostalgia value) amount to the same thing. "keep playing 40k but with this one little change its all fixed!"
its not fixed, and there's not enough good to be worth salvaging

>>93185575
as a fan of 2nd ed epic LI is not great but once the community house rules and adds xenos it could be fun. if nothing else new models and more players are appreciated.

>>93188631
Opr is not 40k though. People who suggest it dont get why you used to play 40k. It was not balanced- you played it because it was warhammer. It felt in universe. Opr feels bland

>>93188824

I'd say that OPR with advanced rules is on the same level of complexity as 3rd edition 40k, ie. Necrons are slow and tanky, cult marines have minor differences in wargear+USRs compared to regular chaos marines. Regular marines have some different wargear choices and have better morale than chaos marines. But it's very barebones compared to contemporary 40k.

>>93189312
Yeah, but 3rd edition had crucial elements that elevate it above OPR: Mortar ranging, armor values, weapon facings, WS and BS tables, army specific special rules, really good movement rules, logical, exciting missions, loads of flavorful customization etc....

>>93189330
NTA but nobody will ever be able to convince me that guess range weapons were a good thing because I frequently was up against an Empire army owned by a carpenter
If I'm going to lose I want to get outthought, not railed by guess range weapons. My day job doesn't give me artificial advantage with ship games.

>>93138167
OPR is just stripped back GW rulesets. If you genuinely want to try out some good games in this genre that try to do something different, consider:
> Rampant
>Space Weirdos
>Planet 28
>Round of Fire
>Stargrave
>renegade scout
>fistful of lead: galactic heroes
(In no particular order, although I’d definitely recommend Space weirdos as an incredibly easy pick up and play ruleset, and you can mash it together with sword weirdos for more depth)

>>93186183
>>93188631
I think he meant the AA-40k ruleset someone made in the /fourk/ threads. It seems fine with a 500 point ork vs tau game i played but its based on 4th and 7th edition so my sisters dont get most of its range refresh from the codices the guy made. Also there hasn't been a /fourk/ thread in a week so it could just be dead in the water.
Heres the link to the mega if you want to check it out: https://mega.nz/folder/cK0hSCJZ#59xIvxfhg8qre5t15s2WSg

>>93190044
Thanks, I'll check it out.

bump

>>93136006
>>The CORE mechanic of the game is not built on tactics, strategy, but on listbuilding like a trading card game instead of a wargame. The game is generally won before you even begin playing.
This is what kills it for me. This is what really defeats the game.

considering the complaints I'm hearing about regular Battletech
I might as well ask if Alpha Strike is any good?

Honestly answering here.

40k uses the outdated Igougo system instead of alternating activations. This makes OPR stand out as it uses alternating activations and that means that the game is entirely different from 40k.

It is a matter of taste but OPR now seems to exist in this weird limbo where it is a backup 40k to actual 40k so if the rules are bad then OPR will allow you to use your Warhammer miniatures in the game instead of having them just collect dust.

File: meta.png (95 KB, 1010x880)

95 KB PNG

>>93154280
>Metamorphs have a skill that if everyone has autopistol they get to move 6" in response to being shot and losing a model (a T4 W1 Sv5+ model, but that is another issue). Otherwise they move d6" They can get stuck in melee with this movement.

What skill is that? I've checked the Metamorphs statblock (picrel) and there is nothing like that.

File: Hey Guys, what's goin on.png (431 KB, 514x1028)

431 KB PNG

>>93186073
I gave battletech a try, because mechs are cool. Both games was just endlessly checking tables and modifiers, only for the entire game to be decided on who rolled the luckiest crit.
the crunch and tables are certainly make the learning curve a bit off putting, but once you get the basics of gator figured out and terrain movement modifiers battle tech can be pretty quick, and the crit chart of the mech can lead to some very interesting variety on how mechs degrade in combat, but if that's not the kind of game you like than it's just kinda moot,
>normies who enjoy 40K can't understand the joy we get from CBT *Insert joker picture here*
>>93196165
alpha strike is fine, if shallow, squashing down details like ammo, exact heat sinking, exact armor numbers, exact movement modifiers and granularity of different weapons into a flat number. that being said the miniatures are the same for Classic BattleTech and Alpha Strike, and most terrain are also interchangeable, along with map sheets (if you play hex based alpha strike which is personally my preferred method since it makes movement faster and terrain easier to count).

File: No Longer All Smiles.png (175 KB, 320x294)

175 KB PNG

>>93198529
>I forgot to put the quote in green so it's hard to read and blends into my comment.
I will commit sudoku this evening, my one regret is my massive incompetence

>>93139206
Everything almost

File: Screenshot_9.png (825 KB, 1031x816)

825 KB PNG

>>93197337
The new metas from the codex.

>>93135868
What I dont like about 40k
>Cards
Why do they exist??
>Mana/CP/stratagems etc
The most stupid mechanic overall, extremely videogamey
>IGOUGO
game is too fucking big for IGOUGO
>Rules/manuals business
Disgusting
Bonus point
>I hate all new models, they looks like shit

>>93201180
forgot to add
>Too many special abilities
They are basically not special anymore...
My far harad riders' impale feel more memorable that the entire CSM roster