Would god/gods being unmistakeably present in a world make people more or less religious, relative to a world where god is more mysterious and invisible?
If adherence (or lack thereof) to a religion has a moderate to significant material impact on an individual, yes, otherwise probably not.
>>93178784Anon, I want you to think of our world and the power that religious institutions have held in literally every human society to ever exist. Now imagine how much more powerful those institutions would be if their priests could actually call down fire to smite the wicked and impure. A world where gods 100% verifiably exist and intervene with the world and communicate with the faithful wouldn’t have a concept of atheism in the way we understand the term, it would be like somebody not believing in the existence of water or air.
>>93178784You would think so, but I have no data with which to provide an informed answer. You may also wish to consider the fact thst most religiois people do in fact consider their deity/ies to be unmistakably present.
it would make "religion" more like a political faction rather than a faith, assuming that you are talking about a setting with several deities of course
>>93178784Depends on what you mean by 'religious". If "religious" just means doing dumb things for dumb reasons, then yea, a more distant god will inspire more religion. If "religious" means doing what the gods actually want (whatever that is), then no, the distant mysterious gods will inspire less religion than the direct comprehensible gods. >if their priests could actually call down fire to smite the wicked and impureThen they're on par for their setting. Real-world priests were able to actually call on herbalism and geology and psychology to perform amazing impossible feats. If anything, a fire-slinging priest in a D&D setting is more mundane than a well-educated priest in a realistic historical setting.
>>93178859work on your b8
>>93178784people of the past couldnt concieve that gods just didnt exist. To them it was pure insanity.However if real gods existed and interacted with mortals, there wont be any cults or schisms in religion, making it more like a race or a political group (more like a kingdom, less like a church)
>>93178878Work on your brain.
>>93178784Religion and "belief" would just change from "whether or not you believe this god actually exists" to "whether or not you believe this god is worthy of worship"
>>93178784If you know for sure god is real you are not religious because it becomes scientific fact.You can still worship it, and people would be most likely more fanatical about doing it, but such world has no place for belief
>>93178784If gods are proven to be real worship becomes a cost benefit transaction. It is no longer about faith. Its servitude and adherence to gods creed to gain benefits or avoid punishment (both now also proven to be actual real things with cause and effect). Gods being proven real is the death of faith
>>93178784>unmistakeably present in a worldImpossible. There is no evidence that everyone will accept and no one will misinterpret.
>>93178942None of them are
>>93178784There is unmistakable evidence that God is present in our world, and yet here we are. It might make core believers more zealous, but not everyone will believe even if there is a Zeus or something chilling in the temple.
>>93179435>"unmistakable" evidence>people mistake it anywayyour god should be able to do better than that
The concept of what it means to be "religious" or "have faith" would be fundamentally different. Think about how in our world we have the fucking sun. Nobody denies that the sun exists. Whether you like the sun or not or are a nocturnal animal or whatever varies based on culture and species, but nobody says "THE SUN ISN'T REAL". Sun worship is even a staple in many ancient religions, since its power and existence and effect are so prevalent.In fantasy settings with self-evident and present gods, they're like the sun. Just because you acknowledge that the sun exists doesn't mean you worship it, and maybe you live in an equatorial region where the sun is constantly killing you and you're pretty miserable and wish the sun was less intense or you could avoid it. Now imagine the sun could talk and would occasionally shit-talk people it killed or threaten to scorch your crops if you didn't give it enough sacrifices. In these settings (including D&D which we all fucking know is what you're actually talking about you vagueposting loser), gods are physical phenomena. The question of religiosity then becomes whether you treat the gods as simply part of the world's order and universe and acknowledge their existence but don't actively seek their patronage, like how many powerful asshole wizards in D&D acknowledge the gods exist but don't actively worship them the same way you wear sunglasses on a bright day but don't have an altar to the sun and sacrifice chickens to it, or whether you go out of your way to show deference and worship and praise to this powerful existence in hopes you might be rewarded. But either way, the sun still exists. Gods are physical phenomena, sailors all acknowledge Umberlee every time they board a ship because she IS the sea, and she's a spiteful little jealous bitch who will literally sink your boat if you DON'T properly acknowledge her and show praise. It's not about whether she exists or not, that's as self-evident as the sky and sun
>>93178827Our world has glowing rocks that can power entire countries, vaporize cities with a single blast, poison the soil for generations, and kill organic material invisibly and imperceptibly. And yet no one's out here worshiping nukes.
>>93178784>>93178814>>93178843>>93178942>>93179435>>93179823This is an actual paradox in the real world.Whenever pagan sources are considered, there's a very real presence (claimed to be) felt by the adherents and members of the community spend the majority of their time, at work and at home, serving the powers in many different ways and methods. Polytheists are absolutely sure what they see was their gods and goddesses.Diametrically opposed to the above is Christianity: the capital g God is unseen yet present, unfelt yet interacting, and followers of the Christian God never (seem to) perceive the presence of any lower case g gods. Ever. One chapter in the Old Testament makes fun of the single most worshipped deity in the ancient MENA by calling him a sleepyhead on the toilet.The quandary is thus: do polytheistic gods exist, or do they hide when Christians are around? This is corroborated by spiritualists who claim practicing Christians generate an "anti-magick" field (note the extra k) in which psychic powers not only fail but don't return once removed. Blessings are perceived to come "from outside".If we follow real world spiritualism, Christians are anti-magic.>>93179415Fun fact: Romans used to call Christians "atheists" and many were sentenced to death for asebia.Where were you when you realized ES dwarves are godly?
Not religious at all actually. It would be a Tolkien situation where the god-like figures are treated like super-kings and not worshipped. Figured that should be respected, feared, etc, but not something unknowable which must be invested with special faith.
>>93179435>There is unmistakable evidence that God is present in our world, and yet here we are.Same page here. In light of my beliefs, I would probably consider lowercase g gods to be more like demons or egregores, spiritual beings that arose from the collective desires of worshippers and other spiritual practitioners.I also agree with >>93178942 and >>93178978.
>>93178784What are the pros and cons of a world where the gods concretely exist and interact with their worshippers, or at least their priesthood, semi-regularly versus one where they’re more distant, maybe even to the point of their existence is somewhat ambiguous, and what settings do either well besides maybe Eberron for the latter?
>>93181801>And yet no one's out here worshiping nukes.People worship the Armageddon Cult known as MAD as the ender of "true wars". People worship the glowrock priestly caste known as scientists.People worship fucking brands these days.And that doesn't even go into how off-base your comparison is, since nukes don't have a will of their own nor do they have rules to follow or powers to selectively bestow upon their chosen.
relevant quote
>>93181801You don't have a functional understanding of what "worship" is. The majority of people have religious fervor over their god, called Nation, and I'm not being sarcastic.
>>93181801Nukes promise something between instant death to decades of suffering. Religions promise eternity of bliss or suffering. That's not comparable.Nukes also do a lot less to directly feed the "I am morally right, I am the good guy" ego state when the person holding that attitude isn't also the same person who orders the launch button to be pressed whereas every peon in the religion has access to that source of moral superiority (unless caste system).
>>93184526Nation is for certain the most popular deity in the world. Mammon is probably a very close second.
>>93182781Holy mother of straw men!
>>93183366>disrespecting hardworking postmen by not believing in themTruly a woman moment if I ever heard one. No self-respecting Wizard would dare disrespect the man who brings him the greatest 1/7th scale treasures.
>>93178784I think it would make them more religious. I mean, people were really religious - and a lot still are - in our world. There's a certain country we're all very familiar that's based around a religion.People still believe their religion today, with all of the science we have. There's no reason to think that in the past, when there was less scientific advancement to explain why things are happening, that people did not believe their own religions. >>93178908It depends on the gods in question. Some gods might cause schisms or promote splinter cults in their own religion for their own purposes - a trickster god might enjoy fucking with people that way.Some gods might not really care very much for orthopraxy and be content with getting worship even if you have one group who think you need to do the hokey pokey to properly praise that god and offer seven chickens, and another group that believes the dosey do is the proper way to worship and one should offer a female and male badger. But as long as the god fulfills their end of the bargain in the do ut des system, then people are going to do whatever.
>>93178859>If "religious" just means doing dumb things for dumb reasons
>>93187432Your presence on 4chan is a continual delight to me. "Religion" in the real world refers to beliefs systems fundamentally dependent on imaginary elements. When they aren't fundamentally dependent on imaginary elements we describe them in completely different terms using completely different words. Conversely, in the world of explicit fantasy and imagination, we like to imagine worlds where gods are real and where religions are true. This raises a question as to what OP means by "more religious" vs "less religious". With a distant god, there will be more people making up stories based on nothing and then allowing those made-up stories to have a profound impact on their day to day lives, which in some sense means more religion (religion in the real world sense). Whereas a comprehensible god will have more impact, will inspire more devotees, will wield more political power and will be better able to achieve its actual designs (religion in the fantastical or in-world sense).
>>93187546
>>93185967Ironic
>>93178784Define what being religious would mean in this context?It it means believing the gods exist, then people would be more religious because not being religious is willful ignorance.If it means believing they deserve to be worshipped, then I think they'd be less religious unless the gods are really impressive. Being able to actually see them demystifies them.
itt: reddit
>>93186063>There's a certain country we're all very familiar that's based around a religion.I think I get what country you’re talking about, but to be sure, what country IS it?
>>93178784People believed gods literally lived in the world in some civilizations, look at those.Did you think divine right to rule was just a joke and no one was using it literally?
>>93178784Why exactly do people worship the miracle? As far as I remember all the people it "blessed" ended up worse off
>>93178784The mundanity would increase the amount of followers, but reduce the overall zeal since there's no "belief" in the picture anymore.
>>93180820High IQ answer
>>93178784what is, for lack of a better word, a "God"?Is it merely a powerful individual consciousness? how powerful does one have to be to be a God? Where do they derive their power from? Is a sufficiently powerful wizard a God? can mortals become Gods? Are Gods born? Can Gods die? These are all questions that will inform the answer to the OP question
>>93187651>t.most intelligent christcuck
>>93192111Because Miracle really exists and cannot be stopped. So you better worship because otherwise situation get even worse.
>>93178784>Would god/gods being unmistakeably present in a world make people more... religiousYes.And a pro-tip from a guy who has been playing since the 00's: If a player wants to be an atheist in a setting with monsters and spells, it's a sign he's a contrarian who wants to disrupt the game for his own amusement. No different the fag who who resists party-creation in the first session because his character doesn't trust yours yet. Or that guy who always wants to call the police/guards instead of investigating a problem.
>>93195117Wouldn’t the blessings of the gods increase zeal in turn?
>>93181801>no one's out here worshiping nukes.Very few people believe nukes can be directly placated.
If gods were real, you wouldn't have nearly as many religious fanatics any more.When's the last time you met someone who was a water fanatic, or a rock fanatic?
>>93187546What the actual fuck.
>>93204501I mean, nobody can prove him wrong.
>>93187546>fundamentally dependent on imaginary elementsI didn't know most quantum physics, evolutionary biology, and the entire field of psychology were "religions".Wild take.
>>93204583So your pointy bone under your ribs is imaginary now?Are you high?
>>93204512He also didn't prove the other guy wrong and you both should fuck off to Reddit.Just look at this wall of text he posted in response to a shitty meme picture. Insane.
>>93204683Dude you're literally dragging up an argument from like three days ago while calling someone else a nutter.
If a god is too visible in the world then the a natural consequence is that the god will be relegated to the category of "powerful being" rather than as a divine ruler. The mystery is what drives the worship. Zealotry requires worshippers to take a leap of faith to prove their devotion. The mystery is what compels people to seek understanding of their god.Even if the observable god was to enforce the faith through supernatural means, without the mystery it would just come off as basic tyranny.
>>93185982>Truly a woman momentI'm nearly certain that's a Terry Pratchett quote. I haven't even read the book that it's from (haven't read much Pratchett, just the first three Discworld books plus Good Omens), but it feels exactly like his style. Hang on, let me check......yup. Pratchett, Witches Abroad.Pratchett was a dude, dude.
>>93181899But Christian’s commonly say they enjoy gods creation when looking upon nature, there’s still a spirituality there. That we are divine and the world is crafted by the divine as well. It’s not like they view the world as a material thing, if they did it wouldn’t be a religion
>>93204551>the big hand theoryThat's kind of hilarious because in the DC universe there is, in fact, literally a giant hand at the beginning of everything that appears to be making everything.
>>93178784Depends on the god. People do what they're told, not what makes perfect sense. If the religion told them to disbelieve of the very real God, they would do that even if it seems paradoxical. People don't believe in God irl because it makes sense, they believe what they were told and the strictures around the religion.
>>93204750>The mystery is what drives the worship. Zealotry requires worshippers to take a leap of faith to prove their devotion. The mystery is what compels people to seek understanding of their god.Nah. People worship gods seeking blessings in this life, and for salvation in the afterlife.
If you’re building a setting like this, just treat it like Greek stories. Where you have to do some cool shit or be very devoted for a god to help you out, and even then they aren’t unstoppable beings. They all have a niche and human failings as well.
>>93204851There is an inherent mystery that drives the supposed reward system.>blessingsNot everyone is going to be blessed equally, if at all.>afterlifeThis is an inherent mystery that creates doubts and zealotry, it requires a leap of faith for one to believe in the afterlife to begin with.A lot of faith is also driven by the desire to oppose non-believers, sometimes from non-believers themselves (i.e. the non-believers see that other non-believers are not upholding a certain moral value, and thus turn to faith again). The doubt is what makes the faith work.
>>93204879>afterlife>This is an inherent mysterynot if the god is real and romping around the mortal realm showing people what the afterlife is like or letting them speak to their dead kin
>>93208719Yeah if like a son of a god or something came down and started performing miracles and resurrecting the dead and preached about how humans should live and worship the mystery would be all gone there just wouldn't be any zinger to keep people interested
>>93208898And then some other guy comes along and splits the moon in half while refuting what the previous guy saidThe mystery is there because god can’t get his shit together and actually say what he means instead of acting like a woman
>>93204473The gods aren't inanimate objects, though. They're people, albeit people with more power.And there are tons of fanatics of certain people.
>>93178784What are some good resources for creating gods and/or pantheons in one's own settings?
>>93178784I don't understand how being able to see god makes you less likely to be religious as if there arn't people who have the same level of fervent faith in actual people or institutions.If anything, the "disbelievers" merely acknowledge the power but find some other reason why they won't bend the knee to it
>>93178784>Would god/gods being unmistakeably present in a world make people more or less religious, relative to a world where god is more mysterious and invisible?Facebook is unmistakely spying on everyone. Few people actually care.Just relate this situation to something IRL that people are divided on. Or maybe not even divided on.99% of population never looked through a microscope to look at cells, viruses or atoms, yet tons of people totally believe in them and feel 0 need to make sure.Similar case with everything space related.
>>93178827>wouldn’t have a concept of atheism in the way we understand the termNot exactly the same, but somebody might still not believe that these so-called gods are actually divine or have mortals' best interest in mind.
>>93178784The definition of religion wouldn't work. Riddle me this, is a government following a constitutional system written by figures from a half-remembered history hundreds of years ago before the advent of empirical thinking any different from following a religion where the god figure is/was verifiability real?>>93178827>wouldn’t have a concept of atheism in the way we understand the term, it would be like somebody not believing in the existence of water or air.Abrahamic religion redefined "God" in the eyes of many to refer exclusively to a Being of Absolute Perfection. That Zeus exists wouldn't make him a god in the eyes of the people who described divinity to be deserved for perfection alone, whether or not it's actually possible. Much like how nobody thinks the man who can turn the nuclear key is a god, even if he can destroy the world.
>>93181899So what you're saying is that disciples of jews lose their souls and mimic the soullessness of their masters? Honestly makes perfect sense, but it's still sad.
>>93204879>This is an inherent mystery that creates doubts and zealotry, it requires a leap of faith for one to believe in the afterlife to begin with. A lot of faith is also driven by the desire to oppose non-believers, sometimes from non-believers themselves (i.e. the non-believers see that other non-believers are not upholding a certain moral value, and thus turn to faith again). The doubt is what makes the faith work.But enough about democracies
>>93181801>And yet no one's out here worshiping nukes.The dogma Nuclear deterrence is a nearly universally held belief despite not being true
>>93192111>>93199650I haven't played Blasphemous in years, but most of the artbook and ingame stuff made me think zealots conflated its blessings/curses as one along with extreme asceticism being the only way for the Miracle to work. Also as a semi-related note, I think a bone collectible mentions there being at least one foreign place with a different faith, and the person that bone belonged to was questioning if they (the not!Spanish people) got their faith wrong.
>>93181801Mammonites are people that "worship" money; everything they do is for money or for not losing money. Economists and finance experts are for all intents and purposes priests: their opinions matter 100x more than the laity. There are broadly accepted dogmas which cannot absolutely be proven, such as "buy low and sell before the market adjustment", or, "buy land, park gold". Clean and unclean = an audited opinion as a going concern, or not. Fitness is similar. Sports and cars ditto. If you think of worship as exclusively altars and incense it is too narrow a view; "worship" derives from "ascribe worth". Whatever you place an extremity of importance on and make significant sacrifices of life to, is your religion. >no, religion can only be illogical unproven stuff>belief in superhuman powers or godsThe invisible hand of the freemarket is superhuman, and economists have a success rate at forecasting comparable to weathermen. >wrong>because scientists and economists will always say we don't really knowSo do religious authorities. More than 3/4 of any given religion is mystery.
