Welcome to TODD! This thread is for OPEN discussion of TSR-era Dungeons & Dragons (OD&D, Basic D&D, and AD&D including 2e) and related games, such as retroclones and OSR-adjacent games (OSE, BFRPG, S&W, LotFP, DCC, C&C, etc.). Free discussion of house rules and modifications is encouraged. For the sake of clarity, B/X is the assumed default system for any conversation unless otherwise indicated (but please do feel free to indicate otherwise).As a reminder, please do not respond to bait. Just report and go on as usual.Previous Thread: >>93187986>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in?>As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?
How could I give my players XP for a timeskip? How do I decide how much XP they get, depending on the activities done during the timeskip and how long the timeskip is vMost of the PCs in my current campaign have used domain mechanics in ACKS to build the first gym in my setting. They hired a bunch of blacksmiths to craft weights out of iron and the PCs intend to spend a few years of time lifting weights to get stronger in order to defeat the Bicep Wizard (BBEG). How do I reflect these strength gains? Is XP even the right thing to use for this? Increasing DTR for each PC seems like it’d be too easy to get out of hand, and the Magic-User PC (who isn’t lifting during the timeskip) is working on testosterone enhancement potions for the lifters to use. They reckon their strength will multiply several times over due to all of these factors. Any ideas?
>>93214396STR, not DTR***Sorry I’m posting from my phone right now because I’m in the middle of a leg workout. Ignore the typos please.
Reposting art request if anyone knows what it is >>93211720>>93214396Bro, are you running a Dragon Ball Z campaign? What the fuck. Also you can't increase STR past 18 in ACKS. See previous discussion about attributes in B/X.
>>93214419It’s not a DBZ campaign but it’s similar I guess. Setting is just typical fantasy stuff as implied in most OSR systems. How do I give them their strength gains if not by increasing their STR? Giving them XP would give them other bonuses not related to muscle growth, so I’m unsure if that’s the best route to take. I had the idea of just handling it in a narrative sense but that could also get out of control with no real way to keep it reasonable. I’m switching to upper body soon so I won’t be able to post more about it but I hope that helps. Any ideas would be much appreciated it.
What is the best old school implementation of firearms? Official, unofficial, big releases, some blog entry you found from 10 years ago, whatever. I want to see what you guys like.
>>93214690Found this in the other thread weeks ago
>>93214690Honestly, if you use an armor-as-DR system, just giving firearms high damage, low ROF is about all you have to do, other than keeping in mind how loud they are and how much smoke there is. LotFP (see pic) has them ignore a lot of armor, in additional to a lot of other stuff. Everything there makes sense, but it's a lot of shit, and I'd prefer to streamline it at least a bit.
>>93214690I guess some of it depends on how common you want to make firearms, and to what extent you want them to outshine bows and such. And what era of firearms we're talking about, at that. How primitive?
>>93214900I tried to be vague enough that people would recommend whatever they find cool, but if I had to give an idea of how primitive I imagine them in my head, I guess they’d be just primitive enough that they don’t become ubiquitous, and are rather just a viable alternative to other ranged weapons more common in this kind of fantasy. I was thinking they’d just be a specialized ranged weapon, in that if a player decided they are worth putting up with in terms of their inherent drawbacks, they could absolutely use them instead of, say, longbows or crossbows or whatever. They’d probably also be expensive enough that only adventurers and high-tier members of society would ever be able to afford them (again, to keep them from becoming ubiquitous). I get that this idea isn’t realistic, but I’m not going for realism. Just for variety and fun.
>>93214318>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?Thief>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?Labyrinth Lord/DCC>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in?My Half-Orc Thief>As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?Depends>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?Hate the disclaimer on literally everything, like the Applecline trivia>>93214690This one that I made
I started thinking about this. Do you guys have an overarching plot in your campaign? Like, “we’re fighting a war against the evil empire” or “we’re collecting the seven macguffins to stop the dark god’s return”? I know OSR is big on not doing that, but this isn’t the OSR thread, so I’m looking to see what everyone else thinks.
>>93215104>Do you guys have an overarching plot in your campaign?Depends on how we define that. Currently, one of my world's "main events" is a crusade against the orcs that conquered a large portion of land that was previously under human control. There's other stuff going on in the setting, but usually I don't try to force storylines that require the attention of the PCs. However, if they don't get involved normally things won't play out well and they will feel the consequences at some point. If my PCs want to go be pirates on the high seas, even though there's an army of undead invading one of the regions, they'll have the consequences bleed into their game somehow. Maybe there will be more military presence on the sea due to other armies attempting to help stop the undead invasion, and at the same time that would most likely mean less naval trade going to or from the region being invaded.
I’ve played BECMI, 1e and 2e, how different is OD&D?, is it worth playing?.
>>93215205>OD&DAD&D Beta Rules>LBBThe Philosopher's Stone of D&D
>>93215222>LBBIs that the brown box?, how is it different to OD&D?
>>93215306By virtue of being the first* RPG, it is also unintentionally incomplete.To make it playable, you must become a co-author with Gygax and Arneson. OD&D is LBB with all/most supplements and is just an unrefined AD&D 1e.*Braunsteinfags GYG
How would you go about fixing saving throws in C&C?
>>93215333Not OP. I know that Swords and Wizardry Complete is OD&D while S&W White Box is LBB. Is this why there are differences between the two books?I ask because I notice that the other races have abilities in White Box that don’t appear in Complete, most notably halflings’ near- invisibility; elves’ +1 against goblins, orcs, intelligent undead, and lycanthropes; and dwarves and halflings taking half damage from giants.
>>93215382S&W is very bad bootleg of OD&D, White Box is that bootleg pared down to be LBB-shaped. You aren't going to experience anything close to the real thing if you uses Finch's slop.
>>93214318any useful Ravenloft material gathered from anons? Not just kartagane and websites like that. Some minor chart from a user or something like that? There are a few good threads in the archive (thoughts of darkness a strange mind flayer adventure, night of the walking dead and some more) but that is it.
>>93215382That about covers it. As I understand it, S&W Whitebox is based on 3LBB +Chainmail. S&W Complete is based on 3LBB, supplements, and Chainmail. Ignore the seething above. S&W is very good. Some people just automatically don't like it because it replaced the term "race" with "ancestry".
>>93215445>S&W is very good.And yet it fails at its very mission of being a retroclone of OD&D with retarded shit like single saves. Care to explain that?
>>93215104>Do you guys have an overarching plot in your campaign?No, the group I play with clearly doesn't like that sort of thing. So any major world events are essentially happening in the background with only tangential effects on the PCs at most.
>>93214318>>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?Energy drain. I don't like how ubiquitous it is amongst the undead, I don't like how punishing it is to low level characters, and I don't like the way it scales, or doesn't scale I guess would be correct.I prefer curses, direct drain of ability scores, and other status effects. I've been toying with negative XP idea but I haven't figured out a way to make it feel more immediate. >>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?I can't narrow it down to one or even three. There are a lot of games that have qualities that I like enough to overlook the things I don't. I usually run B/X with stuff grafted on from other games.>>As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?Races, not so much. Classes, yes absolutely. I've had plenty of success using Dragon Magazine classes.>>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?They're hypocrites and I won't pay for anything they still have ownership of.
>>93215371I DM C&C. The saving throws aren't broken and don't need fixing.
>>93215466No explanation required. The old style saves are included if you prefer them. You'd know that if you actually had any experience with the game or had even read through the book before shitting out your worthless opinion.
>>93215432I don't DM Ravenloft CS, but I notice that a benefit of I6 being revisited every single new edition is that there is new art and maps every time, much of which you can enhance any RL game with no matter the rules system you use. Lots of VTT maps too.
>>93215371Use only *half* the caster's/creature's level for the challenge level of a spell/special ability. That will mean that characters gain ground in terms of saves as they level: 1/2 point per level vs. an enemy of equal level. By 9th level then, you need to roll a 7 or a 13. That's definitely a step in the right direction from a 12 or 18, but 13 is still pretty high. At 9th level, saves are averaging 10.08, not including dwarves and halflings. The worst saving throw, breath weapons, is 11.40, but that's not really exploitable. Save vs. spells, which is 11.00, is perhaps a more relevant bad end of things. The numbers would obviously be significantly better if dwarves and halflings were included.Perhaps more relevant is the fact that 1st level saves (again, without dwarves and halflings) average out to 13.92 (15.00 save vs. spells). That's a 30% chance to save at the bad end, vs. only an only 15% chance to make a save with an secondary attribute in C&C (if you're adding only half the caster's level, it's slightly better at 20%). One thing that will help this is to close the gap between primary and secondary saves a bit (which I think is a good idea in general). Instead of 12/18, go 13/17. IIRC, the Castle Keeper's Guide presents something like this as an option. A base 40% vs. 20% chance is still plenty of difference, and the numbers are closer to B/X's.So my solution: add half the caster's/attacker's level to difficulty, use 13 and 17 as the base numbers for primary and secondary saves.
>>93214419>you can't increase STR past 18 in ACKS.So what? This thread is for free discussion of house rules and encourages modifications. I think this>>93214396is a fantastic idea. I would allow to gain one point of strength per month until 18, and then one point every 6 months.
>>93214690>What is the best old school implementation of firearms?Twilight 2000 is great.
>>93215482I don't really see how you can say this. At 9th level you have a 15% chance save with a secondary attribute vs. an enemy of your same level. In B/X it's going to be in the neighborhood of 50%. In old school D&D, one of the big things keeping the rising power of casters in check at high level is the fact that saving throws are easier and easier to make, but C&C completely dispenses with this, and you get nowhere. On top of this, secondary attributes are easily targetable, making secondary saves, which are awful, significantly more relevant than primary ones.
>>93215514>At 9th level, saves are averaging 10.08, not including dwarves and halflings.In B/X, that is.
>>93215514>So my solution: add half the caster's/attacker's level to difficulty, use 13 and 17 as the base numbers for primary and secondary saves.Use 13 and 17 as the base numbers for primary and secondary checks in general, that is. It would be obnoxious to just adjust the numbers for saving throws, and as I said, I think 13 and 17 work well in general.
>>93215371This:>Instead of 12/18, go 13/17. IIRC, the Castle Keeper's Guide presents something like this as an option.Is indeed the fix explicit in the CKG rules for if you think the saves/SIEGE numbers are too hard in C&C. The 12/18 are numbers that can be dialed down to suit yourself as the DM, and this is part of the beauty of C&C.
>>93214318>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?Class: Fighters. Race: Humans. They are boring. Rule: Descending AC, it's confusing.>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?Shadowdark but unfortunately it has no monks.>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in?Dragonborn Monk, but this was a few year ago. He was raised by circus performers. Every time I scored a critical hit I came up with a funny move or pun about the situation.>As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?Yes.>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?It's okay? Don't know what you mean by this.
>>93215530>In old school D&D...saving throws are easier and easier to make, but C&C completely dispenses with thisCorrect. There are reasons for that. One of the reasons it doesn't bother me is that I think saves get too easy in AD&D. But as I wrote in the post above, just dial the SIEGE numbers lower if you think the saves and checks are too hard.
>>93215104The king is actually a lich using illusions or polymorph to conceal himself, I still haven't decided which. Every few years he kills his heir and takes his place. One of the PCs is fourth in line to the throne but he still hasn't realised. The party is being sent on suicide missions because the King is afraid of them, but there's always one way to circumvent or defeat the trap.
>>93215548>>93215514I really appreciate the input, anons.
>>93215371Reflex / Fortitude / Will is the most intuitive system. Two strong saves and a weak one is great, but I let monsters and NPCs have only one strong one because I like PCs to feel special.
>>93215466Hey this general encourages house rules and modifications. Please don't gatekeep and keep it civil.
>>93215530>Oh no they changed the saves C&C is bad fun.Okay grog
>>93215604based DM
>>93214396>they get a job>get paid according to dmg>xp is given accordingly>+/- for random events happening
>>93215514>add half the caster's/attacker's level to difficulty, use 13 and 17 as the base numbers for primary and secondary checks.Let's compare the figures we get, again excluding dwarves and halflings on the B/X sinde. For B/X we'll take a midpoint between the overall average of all the categories of saves and save vs. spells in particular. For C&C we'll weight secondary saves double, adding together 2/3 secondary saves and 1/3 primary (which is honestly probably being a bit generous to C&C, since there are more secondary attributes, and they're often targetable, but it'll be good enough for our purposes here).level ---- B/X number ---- C&C number1 ---- 14.56 ---- 14.672 ---- 14.56 ---- 14.673 ---- 14.56 ---- 13.674 ---- 13.64 ---- 13.675 ---- 12.76 ---- 12.676 ---- 12.24 ---- 12.677 ---- 11.66 ---- 11.678 ---- 11.66 ---- 11.679 ---- 10.54 ---- 10.6710 ---- 9.50 ---- 10.6711 ---- 8.78 ---- 9.6712 ---- 8.78 ---- 9.6713 ---- 7.52 ---- 8.6714 ---- 7.52 ---- 8.67As you can see, the numbers we end up with are pretty close, with an average deviation of almost exactly half a point. It's not like the B/X save numbers are the magical one true way, but they're in a good area, and the fact that the modified C&C scores are in the same basic place is a good thing.
>>93215652Grog minds cannot cope with the superiority of the Three Saves System. All hail.
>>93215445>Some people just automatically don't like it because it replaced the term "race" with "ancestry".Classic grog. Why am I not surprised?
>>93215628>Oh no they changed the saves C&C is bad fun.It's not so much that they changed the saves, but that they changed them for the worse. It's really shitty to have most of your saves only have a 15% chance of success throughout your character's entire run, and it makes casters too powerful. It's broken like 3.x saves, only actually significantly worse. And as bad as knee-jerk OSR puritanicalism is, with its reviling of any deviation from the original material, the reverse is just as bad, and I really don't want "okay, grog" to become this thread's "FOE GYG".
>>93214318That was the first player's handbook I ever bought.>>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in?Old man wizard with a strength of 4, had to be literally carried whenever the party had to climb up walls or cliffs or do anything that required physicality. Eventually my character found some slippers of spider climb I think they were so made things a little easier. In that campaign one of the assholes in my group killed my fucking familiar, so I killed his character, DM reset it all before my familiar was killed to keep the peace. There was another guy in that group who just would not fucking do anything, he was the most timid player I've ever played with; another campaign that group played with him which I didn't participate in, it was like city of heroes maybe or some such similar superhero game, and during the fight with the bbeg the guy just leave in the middle of battle while all the other players are like in a real bind and roleplays going to a diner and ordering and eating meatloaf. It was the craziest thing I ever heard. He wasn't invited to many other campaigns after that.
>>93215748There's been consistent trolling in these threads, from people trying to derail them because they're some kind of idiot partisans for /osrg/, and from people who just think it's funny to try to piss others off and sew chaos.
>>93215104>Do you guys have an overarching plot in your campaign? Like, “we’re fighting a war against the evil empire” or “we’re collecting the seven macguffins to stop the dark god’s return”?I generally have hooks in my campaign setting that can be turned into overarching storylines like that, but it's kinda up to the players what hooks and adventures and things they want to do and I generally have enough backlog of material that I can adapt to most shit.
>>93215723I really like most of C&C, but I also have kept a lot of B/X procedures and bits of AD&D in it.What is your favorite module written for each edition, /todd/?
>>93215466As somebody who's been playing D&D since the early '80s, I have to say that the ad hoc saving throw categories of old school D&D have never been something I liked. The categories are unwieldy in name and unclear in function (in terms of what you're actually doing to escape the effects), and it's poor management of complexity (making you keep track of 5 different numbers, when the gap between them is usually small enough that it's not worth it). Whether or not you do them exactly like S&W, having single category saves with a bonus vs. a specific type of thing, streamlines things and you don't honestly lose anything of importance, especially since I'd guess that most people couldn't tell you which classes are better at which saves (relative to their own average) and why.
>>93215800>What is your favorite module written for each edition, /todd/?I mostly like the books with fun class otions.Original Edition: Greyhawk SupplementBECMI: Master Set (for the Mystic)First Edition: Unearthed ArcanaSecond Edition: Complete Book of ElvesThird Edition: Exalted DeedsFourth Edition: ---Fifth Edition: Tasha's Cauldron of Everything
>>93215800OE: BlackmoorBECMI: Nights Dark Terror1E: Caverns of Thracia2E: Night Below
>>93215862Sorry I misread "module" as "book" even though I quoted it. Shouldn't be posting before coffee.
Anybody use an unconventional initiative mechanic?I've used a sort of weighted group initiative, so that one team doesn't randomly get such a big advantage, and you don't have the weirdness of all of one team always going before the entire other team. On the first turn, each person on the first side to go rolls a d6. On a 1-3 they get to act that round, on a 4-6 they don't. This means that, on average, half of Team A will act before Team B. And after Team B have all acted (they don't need to roll to see if they can), they're half a team worth's of actions up on Team A. And it goes back and forth from there, retaining the same order of initiative, without rerolling each round (and, of course, Team A's members don't need to roll to see if they can act on subsequent rounds). It's more balanced, and while either team could get really lucky (with everybody on Team A either making or failing their readiness rolls), it's less likely. Team A is still going to tend to have the advantage, as even with just half of them being act, they can maybe kill off an enemy or define the battlefield in their favor in some way (including just positioning themselves), but it's not as overwhelming. And it's a pretty simple system.
In my homebrew I use four saves:Endurance: save vs. unavoidable physical effects.Evasion: save vs. avoidable physical effects.Resistance: save vs magic.Luck: save vs. anything else and death.
>>93215916I love your system! Here's what I do:Individual initiative each round with a d10 and dexterity modifiers, like in AD&D, but if you roll a natural "0" ("10") you are surprised that round. If you dual wield, you get to make two attacks per round with no penalty, but you are surprised on each round in which you roll a natural "0" or "1".>But why surprise in the middle of the round?Unexpected things can happen all the time that make you go "what was that?" and I love the unpredictability, the game becomes stale otherwise.
>>93215931Very elegant, I love how there's no overlap between the categories, so it's much better than the five saves system. I think you've fixed it.
>>93215737>>93215742That's some good analysis.I use single save with specific modifiers and my distribution is very close to B/X average human.>>93215931How do these relate to classes? I can see an obvious correlation to the human classes but I'm curious how you apply the values vs the original rules.
>>93214318is Dungeon Crawl Classics OSR ?
>>93215104Way I do it is:>Unifying background that gives the characters initial direction ('You are all [Cultists], this means that you [know the location of several abandoned temples] and can [call upon demons for advice and service], you also [know that somewhere in this region exists the tomb of a high priest of your order, who was buried with his writings and other magic gear], go forth and do as you will to [serve your god]')>Various hooks that could turn into major plots, above setting for example has an established state religion who acts as a source of rivals, several large factions with their own interests, that high priest could become an ally or an antagonist because they don't know he's also a lich, ectSo, it's a sandbox but I'm also putting interesting toys to fuck around with in it. Also I see no problem in the world having things going on that aren't driven by the PCs but which do effect them.OSR'ers can kvetch about it all they like but if you did an OSR game set in one of the major theatres of WW2, you'd sure as fuck have to mention the war/have it have some influence on the plot at some points, even if the players decide they want to go raiding old tombs instead of getting involved in spy shit.
>>93216291I like it, so for me it counts as OSR. If you feel differently I respect that.
>>93215742Beautiful tables, how did you make them?
>>93216394He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster.Let's please don't.
>>93216441Can we at least still call them faggots whenever they come here to try and stir shit up?That's a time honoured tradition after all.
>>93216391Excel and too much time on my hands.
>>93216441Anons gonna meme. Fucking relax, this is not your private general and you don't get to decide what jokes Anons make.
>>93216446I'm all in favor of telling trolls to fuck off, if only to show that theirs is not a consensus opinion, but it's not like most of 'em won't welcome the ensuing slap-fight.
>>93216462I didn't claim ownership of anything. I merely requested that we not become the thing we hate.
>>93216503Good, let's keep this place wholesome and welcoming. Grogs should be allowed to participate too.
Interesting Thief alternative called the Rake from a BECMI module (don't know why link is retarded)https://rstudio-pubs-static.s3.amazonaws.com/752126_ddb37cf6dd9346d5846d88fc60a17786.htmlNever knew there were modules with new/alternative classes. Anyway, the most striking thing here is the Rake's ability to Dodge in combat like a swashbuckler. This actually feels different from a Fighter in a meaningful sort of way. I've never been a fan of the whole "agile characters get AC bonuses when lightly armored" thing, because functionally it's the exact same thing as wearing armor. It may as well be fluff. But the Rake's Dodge actually provides an interesting gameplay decision - forfeit attacking to try to dodge incoming melee attacks? This is the kind of elegant kino I live for.
I think it's fine to tell someone to fuck off but that should be the end of it. Do not duel with trolls.
>>93216539So good! This fixes the Thief finally.
>>93216262Well, my shitbrew deviates from BX significantly, so the point of comparison becomes muddied. I use a single save, determined by class.The four saves types of: Endurance, Evasion, Resistance and Luck are instead bonus modifiers which are rolled against the character's Save Score.So if a poison trap is sprung, the referee would likely ask the player to make an Endurance save, rolling d20+END vs. their Save Score. A character's choice of class determines both Save Score and the modifiers of the Save Types. Ability Score also informs the total modifier of the Save Type (like how Wisdom affects magical saves in BX)*.*But I use 4 Ability Scores (Might, Agility, Cunning, Willpower), each one affects End, Eva, Res and Luc respectively. So a lucky 18 in Might would grant +3 to Endurance. I know this is FOE shit, but the focus is still on class for save progression primarily. I'm need a drink.
>>93216601>CunningFOE as Satan. What the hell man. You're not supposed to tell players if their character is ingenious or not. That's the whole point of OSR: player ingenuity.
>>93216618I don't mean it that way, I honestly just like Cunning as a name for Intelligence. Evokes old fantasy novels to me. But yeah I am FOE as shit, I might need to lay myself an OGRE EGG at this point.
>>93216539>I've never been a fan of the whole "agile characters get AC bonuses when lightly armored" thing, because functionally it's the exact same thing as wearing armor.This is one reason I like armor as DR. Being dodgy feels very different from being able to tank blows due to armor when one reduces enemy accuracy and the other reduces enemy damage.
>>93216618>You're not supposed to tell players if their character is ingenious or not.I think "cunning" is a less intrusive term than "intelligence".
>>93216601>*But I use 4 Ability Scores (Might, Agility, Cunning, Willpower)Oh, you're that guy.I use a similar save system. Under the hood it is a single score but class and background apply adjustments. I don't use Luck, or maybe I've named it Doom.
>>93216625>Cunning as a name for Intelligence. Evokes old fantasy novels to meThe best way to name an ability score. Here's mine>Might>Wits>Piety>Adroitness>Vigour>Command
>>93216659False. I can play a 3 INT character with out-of-the-box thinking (like an autist, or like a wild Enkidu type) that may be useless in civilization but is useful in the mythic underworld. I can't play a 3 Cunning character as anything but the guy you have a bridge to sell to.
>>93216764None of the attributes should be dictating how you play your character. Regardless of how they're named, they should only be covering in-game stuff that doesn't interfere with player agency. Intelligence tells you how many languages your character speaks, because that's not something you, the player, does. You don't actually speak Goblin, or whatever.
>>93216823The other anon was talking about intrusive terminology. Intelligence is objectively less intrusive. Intelligence is abstract, cunning is a specific quality.
>>93216739I prefer the six traditional ability scores, but listed in the modern order and renamed:>Force>Agility>Genki>Genius>Osbervation>Tact
>>93216859>The other anon was talking about intrusive terminology.Sure, but the examples they used ("I can play a 3 Cunning character as anybody but the guy you have a bridge to sell to") were phrased in a way to suggest that the attributes were dictating play, whether or not this was the intention.>Intelligence is objectively less intrusive. Intelligence is abstract, cunning is a specific quality.I can only disagree with you here. I feel like, in the age of IQ tests (however flawed they may be), Intelligence feels much more quantifiable and less amorphous than Cunning. Hell, lack of Cunning doesn't even necessarily suggest gullibility to me, like the other anon's bridge example suggests. But this is maybe something we're gonna have to disagree on.
>>93216601 >>93216618 >>93216625 >>93216659 >>93216709 >>93216739 >>93216764 >>93216859 >>93216892Guys, I just wanted to say I love this general. So many great discussions. This one on Cunning vs. Intelligence has me thinking hard on how the names of the Ability Scores influence how people roleplay. This in particular:>>93216764>I can play a 3 INT character with out-of-the-box thinking (like an autist, or like a wild Enkidu type) that may be useless in civilization but is useful in the mythic underworld. I can't play a 3 Cunning character as anything but the guy you have a bridge to sell to.Is good thinking on roleplaying. How would you roleplay a character with 3 Wisdom? Is he goofy? Foolhardy? Impulsive? What backstory would a character with 3 Wisdom have?What's a "Wild Enkidu", by the way?
Here are lock picking and trap disarming failure tables I made at one point then forgot about.
>>93216921>What's a "Wild Enkidu", by the way?The originally savage, eventual bro of Gilgamesh, who gets civilized by pussy.
>>93216890>GenkiI don't know what this is >OsbervationReally?
>>93216659 + >>93216823 + >>93216892 hereI am not saying that intrusive attribute names aren't something that concerns me--they do--I just don't think that Cunning is more intrusive than Intelligence (or *as* intrusive). But then I don't much care for Intelligence and Wisdom as names for terms, so it's all relative. I just wouldn't call out Cunning as being beyond the pale for a system that otherwise uses equally to more objectionable terms.>How would you roleplay a character with 3 Wisdom? Is he goofy? Foolhardy? Impulsive?I absolutely wouldn't let a 3 Wisdom dictate my character that way. Wisdom covers things that are, to the player, intangible. It's not a meter of how foolishly I should play the character.
>>93216892>I feel like, in the age of IQ tests (however flawed they may be), Intelligence feels much more quantifiable and less amorphous than CunningIQ tests do not measure out-of-the-box thinking. In fact they don't measure creativity in general. Nor do they measure 'real superpowers' like synesthesia. They were also precisely devised as a way to tell if someone is intellectually impaired (in the context of psychology, someone who has trouble with being a functioning member of society), hence my autist or Enkidu example is completely on-point. Telling me this or that person has an IQ of X tells me absolutely nothing about their ingenuity, telling me this or that person is cunning tells me I'm dealing with an ingenious person.
Neat thread. How have your games be going?>>93214396Really depends on the length of the timeskip, but the premise sounds extremely silly (in a good way). I hope you include aerobic drows, bloatlich and gains crab spiders: https://desuarchive.org/tg/thread/73312002/#73318920One point of STR every month sounds extreme, if I did something like you are planning I'd say they have to raise STR, CON and DEX by one point each, before raising anything by another. Alternatively, since they are using magic juice, there could be unforeseen consequences to offset the quick gains, either being temporary, or maybe mutations of maluses to other things.>>93215104>overarching plotYes and no. They emerge from player interaction and evolve from there. I played the same starter module with multiple groups and in one occasion the players allied with the local bandits, who are keeping an eye on the PCs via a spy in town; in another they allied the local orcs and convinced them to kill the bandits, missing out on the potential loot; and in yet another they harassed the bandits without directly confronting them long enough that they regrouped elsewhere, grew in numbers, and are now raiding the main trade routes causing trouble for the player's base town.In this last mentioned game, the players decided to eliminate them for good after missing out on a potentially very good trade deal, even if there's still two hexmaps worth of wilderness to explore and at least 5 lairs, multiple wild human/monster tribes, a crashed flying saucer, and a 7-floor megadungeon to find.
I found a neat character generator for Basic Fantasy, comes with an initiative tracker and editable sheet.https://codex.quest/
>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?Level drain entirely. It seems extremely bizarre to have an enemy that effectively punishes you in real time more than it does in game time.There's gotta be a way to keep powerful undead scary but less punitive.>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?Despite it seeming like he mostly did it out of spite rather than any love for OD&D+Greyhawk, I'm pretty partial to Iron Falcon these days for just its simplicity and Greyhawk bits to kind make it AD&D 0.5E.>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in?Human Paladin styled after nihang that I specifically played to be very genial and not Judge Dredd in plate armor. >As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?Not really no.>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?Genuinely kind of hilarious. Their obvious distaste for it/it's creators and their begrudging acceptance that it still makes good money on resale/reprint is never not gonna be funny to me. Someone mentioned those retarded little disclaimers they put in on DTRPG, and that's pretty much the short of it: "We think this stuff is vile and problematic and insensitive and evil, but anyway that'll be $19.99 for a pdf thanks."Otherwise I wanna revisit a wild hair I mentioned last thread about using dungeon encounter tables for the overworld. I've gone back and forth for a while how I would go about that. Plotting danger zones relative to proximity to civilized areas and correlate those to dungeon levels, or just have it scale with the PC's average level? Break down the encounter results into terrain-consistent creatures/monsters (maybe even just simple as breaking the encounters by terrain into their levels), or just kind of accept the wild "labyrinth" logic? Could dungeon population rules still work fairly well for a hex map? In any event, I like the idea of turning the expedition out of town itself into the delve.
>>93217477I mean, the OSR way of dealing with wilderness stuff is to relegate wilderness exploration to higher level characters, and then go by the luck of the roll, not always expecting you to encounter things that are an appropriate challenge for you in terms of power. But certainly, different terrains should have different encounter tables, and you could make a distinction between borderlands, wilderness and deep wilderness.
>>93214960In a world with magic-users and probably alchemists, I think it's pretty easy to restrict firearms by making gunpowder into some highly specialized alchemical and possibly magical thing. And, of course, you could entirely go the magical route and have pew-pew elemental staves that shoot fire rays, or something like that.
>>93216935> Enkidu gets civilized by pussy so he can civilize the unruly king Gilgamesh who is stealing all of his kingdoms pussy for himself.There's like a literary thing going on here I never noticed. It's probably a commentary on something I'm too lazy to articulate all the way. Neat.
>>93215432Two things I like and want to use the next time I run Ravenloft: Strahd's 'variable goals' from the 25th silver anniversary edition of Ravenloft, and this "Strahd is bored" table (every time the DM rolls a 1, dd a point to a counter; once it reaches 10, roll on the table to see what Strahd is up to).
>>93218128Aforementioned goals
software you guys like for making dungeon maps?
>>93215804>As somebody who's been playing D&D since the early '80sIf fake grog cred didn't work in /osrg/ what makes you thinks it would work here?
>>93215604This is actually pretty good
>>93218128>Ravenloft, and this "Strahd is bored" table>>93218175goalsthis can be done for all adventures, seehttps://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/91669877/#91738467 as an example
>>93215604>Reflex / Fortitude / Will is the most intuitive system.Only if you're a 3efag. Mechanically they're an absolute garbage fire because you already have stats that represent your reflexes (Dex), fortitude (Con), and will (Wis). Depending on your attribute modifiers you're triple- or quadruple-dipping with Dex or Con. Thematically, they're uninteresting as the proscribe PC re-actions. Reflex Save vs Dragon Breath narrowly models a dodge or duck. TSR Save vs Breath can represent tanking it with a shield, an artful dodge, weird interaction with wizard magic, divine intervention, or pure luck.
>>93215604>Reflex / Fortitude / Will its good because its more simple than a dozen saves, but after trying it out i would choose the dozen saves as they make things more customized and special in a good way.
>>93216387>I like it, so for me it counts as OSRI don't think that's a reliable metric.>>93217477>Level drain entirely. It seems extremely bizarre to have an enemy that effectively punishes you in real time more than it does in game time.It's balanced by keeping them rare and having a gold reward to build back some of the experience points afterward.
>>93217477>If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?>Level drain entirely.same here. Level drain makes not sense as in losing actual levels, it also wastes time making calculations about everything lost. It can be named differently and have a persistent penalty, like a curse or drain of vitality until lifted. That way the danger felt by the attack of undead will still be felt.
>>93215614Is this thread supposed to be for Open Discussion including negative and dissenting opinions on systems, rules, and playstyles, or is this supposed to be a Closed Hugbox where we just circlejerk with unearned praise?
allow thief in B/X or no?
>>93218731i think its somewhere we can talk about old D&D stuff without OSR fanatics acting as if they are part of a swiss cult that is waiting for a UFO/comet to pass by so it can take them to another planet that is paradisial and they have cut off their genitals to be approved, and also be fanatically puritan about the OSR religion. So seems to be about talking like normal folks that had, have and want to have fun with older versions of D&D.
>>93214318>AD&D including 2eDid you guys find any solution to the psionics in 2e? They kind of sucked, disintegrate very early like in 3rd level and could kill the user with a dice roll.There was an earlier edition of psionics in a dragon magazine i think but was not a solution. Seems making more like spells with some unique traits is the only way to go. Or just leave them as is and emphasize the fact that they are powerful, unreliable and extremely deadly. Sadly that makes them unplayable sometimes.
>>93215104>Do you guys have an overarching plot in your campaign?it should always be there, its the edible pan under the pie in the oven.
I want to jump into second edition D&D with my group. Can any 2nd ed vets give me some tips?>Favorite adventure/module?>Best supplements? Worst?>Essential houserules? What core rules should I ignore or enforce?
>>93218818>Favorite adventure/module?night of the walking dead for ravenlofthttps://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/91763315/#91763315>supplements? Worst?The powers and options books (2.5 edition in effect) sucked. Stay away.>Essential houserules?keep things simple in general, replace level drain with a persistent penalty that can be lifted. Reject burdensome rules and charts, which are usually optional anyways.
>>93218796Psionics killing the user is based on real-world, proven research of actual psychic phenomena. Haven’t you ever wondered why there aren’t psychics flying around IRL and fucking shit up en masse? Most of them die upon their Awakening, and if not then, they die due to exertion when they figure out they can use ESP or other similar abilities, because humans were never built to have those capabilities. Think of it like when a weightlifter tears a proximal tendon due to lifting. That never happens from normal use. It only happens because lifters are doing things we weren’t built to do. Real psychic abilities are even more dangerous than that, like much more.
>>93218839>l folks don't want to talk about old D&D on 4chan.they did and do, but were attacked by osrg psychopaths every single time
>>93218880>Psionics killing the user is based on real-world,yes that is all very interesting but this is a game, it must be fun and it must work. If we go the path of let us make it like the deadliness of the real world then we would be unable to truly have fun.
>>93218839Genuinely wondering why you're so hung up on dogma and bullshit on an almost 40 year old game. God isn't going to strike you down because you made a different ruling than Giygas did. In fact, if you're going to be this asspained about rules why don't you play 3.5? It's perfect for you, you can sit there and spin your dick while you argue about the rules with the DM and never play.
>>93218818>Favorite adventure/module?There's a lot. Web of Illusion for Ravenloft, How The Mighty Are Fallen for FR/Age of Myth. Both are higher-level.>BestComplete Cleric's, Complete Psionics, Complete Humanoids, Monster Mythology, Legends & Lore>Worst90% of the Player's Option Line, a lot of FR books.>Essential HouserulesRevert to earlier edition reactions. Keep in mind that most 1e content is easy to port over if you so choose (background skills > NWPs)>core rulesGold-for-XP for everyone if you're dungeonfagging, class XP for everyone if you're storyfagging (combine the two for even more autism)
>>93218902Games typically have basis in reality, or else people wouldn’t care about them. Unless it’s something like Tetris (which actually is based on simple physics, but I’ll use this as an example), games have to be based at least somewhat on reality to be relatable to the player. Why have the current attributes in the game at all? Why not have GYL, YRB, 5DX, etc, instead of STR, INT, DEX, etc? Because it has to be based on real life, at least to a degree. Having the entire game be nonsense might be more fun mechanically if it’s designed well, but how would anyone role play as a blue mollusk with a high QPL attribute on some gas planet? Nobody would play that. The notion that realism doesn’t matter in games is just silly, much more so in roleplaying games, since you are literally playing as the character.
>>93218911>>93218871Taking notes, appreciate the responses. I have heard of the Walking Dead one being really good. Gonna hunt down a pdf for a look
>>93218955NOTWD can be railroad-y and the boss fight can be toughIt's also a Ravenloft adventure in fantastic Louisiana so make of that what you will
>>93218939the psionics in 2e were based in the fact that were hastily and sloppily written. It has not pseudo-reality or realism in it. clerics are ok, mages are ok, psionicists suck.
>>93216970It's weeb for "energetic vitality" in my understanding. Here I suppose it's the stand in for con.
>>93218955>Walking Dead one being really goodreplace zombie lord death out of nowhere power with some other power.https://www.completecompendium.com/appendix/zomblord/ within 30 yards (90 feet) of the monster, he must save vs. poison or be affected in some way. The following results are possible:6 Character dies instantly and becomes a zombie under control of the zombie lord
>>93218886Don't engage.
>>93219205I just finished a quick reading of the module. I kinda like the idea of this power but definitely can see its bullshit factor is really high. I also read the linked thread you mentioned, I like tge idea of modifying the adventure a bit to allow the party to overcome it. I'll ruminate on it
>>93219326Also, thinking about this more. I like how this is at the end of the session. Id laugh my ass off if this happened to one of my players, and I'd definitely let them play as themselves in zombie form attacking their friends. Most of them would find that amazing and would relish the chance to kill their friends lol
>chatting with some guy>realize halfway through he's my old roll20 DM>remember getting ghosted after the campaign I was in was over>instead of confronting him I just said "oh hey are you X by chance? I'm Anon, really loved your campaign">immediately stops respondingDamn dude. What the fuck did I do to piss off this DM. Things I can think of:1) My PC was paranoid in the dungeon, tapping everything with a ten foot pole. I was admittedly new to the OSR thing.2) My PC once asked a dog trainer if we could train dogs to lead us out of a dungeon. I kinda got stonewalled there by the NPC going "hmm, interesting idea but I'm not sure it would work" and I was like cool, just spitballing. Again, I was just trying to play the OSR way, coming up with inventive solutions.3) My character basically died by GM fiat due to roll20 map glitching at the end of the campaign (killed by being on the wrong square on the map). I never raised any fuss about it, I was like cool, it was only a fellow player that raised the issue, saying it wasn't my fault and all that. But all deaths were final, no retcons.Would any of this be a reason to ghost a player in an old-school game? This DM's campaign was cool as hell, he put a lot of effort into building the sandbox, and I'm saddened I will apparently never get to join another campaign of his again.
>>93219713Sounds like he might be a bit 'tistic. Having a pathfinding dog is clever and comes with it's own risks.
>>93219713>guy contacts me to collab on his project>offer to draw him some art and help proofread>he deletes his messages, blocks me, unfriends all mutuals, leaves all chats in common, deletes his account>all this before I even send him any free artSome people are just weird, Anon. Don't overthink it.
>>93218818>Favorite adventure/module?Return to the Keep on the Borderlands. Has great advice and suggestions for first-time 2e DMs (including gold for xp) and arguably improves on the original in certain ways that might appeal to players who want more fleshed out characters in the titular keep.>Best supplements? Worst?Stick with core, especially for the first time. Then start looking into the Complete books and dig into the supplements of your favourite setting. I'm fond of the FR specialty clerics, but they are beyond powerful in certain games/settings. Avoid Skills and Powers and the associated "2.5" books.>Essential houserules? Gold for XP and Death's Door>>93218796>Did you guys find any solution to the psionics in 2e?Yes, Psionics were resolved back in the day by the great Nigel Findley. Most groups I played with/still play with stick use these in their Dark Sun games and other campaigns that allow psionics. That said, it is a system that treats psionics more like spells with some unique traits, as you said.
>>93219713>>93219973Yeah, when I read that bit I thought it was a great idea. You could just rewrite the thief skills table with the dwarf underground navigation abilities and now you've got a pet dog that you can level over a campaign. Maybe give it some kind of preferred enemy rule so it can be a trained goblin-hunting dog. I'd be over the moon if a player asked for something like that.
>>93218338Not sure what you mean by fake grog cred, but my point is just that it's something I essentially grew up with (B/X was my first real introduction to role gaming, after I played in like half a session of Holmes) and so it's not something that's in any way alien to me. I just don't like it.
Thoughts on the Feats of Exploration XP houserule?https://www.3d6downtheline.com/house-rules
>>93220638Assuming it isn't just naked trolling (which it might be) I really think these people really have never played in any actual game sessions, either playing or DMing and have a super high level of insecurity over really, really wanting to be a part of the One True OSR because they read the right blogs and play the right retroclones. People who actually have fun with games wouldn't talk like this. Just at a factual level they seem to have fundamental misconceptions about what actually happens in a game session even if they autistically know the way every rule was written on every printed page of every edition released before 1989. They're book readers and not game players is how it comes off to me. People who play games remember the rules that are important to what they are actually doing and easilly forget rules that aren't immediately important but these people seem to have every rule no matter how inconsequential memorized and die on a hill over them in a way that no player in actual play would. I also always had the same dissatisfaction with the saving throw terminology. What the fuck even is a death ray and why isn't it a spell and why aren't poly-morph or flesh to stone also spells? Because they are, but they arbitrarily save differently? I get that there is a kind of logic in how the severity of these spells on character life means that for game-play considerations they are given more or less advantageous saves to give characters a higher rate of survival against the deadliest spells but, like, that's fine and all but that isn't the intuitive conclusion you walk away with. Frankly I think one of the few good things about modern D&D (3e through 5e) is how they handle saving throws.
>>93220811It looks interesting. I probably wouldn't make it a forward facing game rule just because I wouldn't want players to turn into XP lawyers over what constituted verifying a rumor ("we verified that it wasn't true that I slept with the millers wife, so I get XP for that right?") but as a behind the scenes system it looks like a fair solution to players doing allot of things that traditionally don't reward XP but are clearly putting in the work to play and interact with the game world.
>>93220877I like old-school saves because they're mathed out for you. It might be a "minor" peeve, but I have grown tired over the years of having to do math when playing. It's extra weight for the mental stack. I appreciate that aspect of old-school D&D, minimizing math during play.
>>93220638>Not sure what you mean by fake grog credYou playing D&D since 1983 is as irrelevant to the topic as if you've been playing D&D since 2023. Adds nothing to discussion and the only reason you'd bring that up is because you think it lends weight to your arguments.>>93220877Thing long me no read.
>>93220933That is a good point and a genuine advantage to the older saves.>>93220944That is a good point and a genuine disadvantage to my post.
>>93220811I liked the concept but when I started using it I realized it didn’t do much more than the system I had already been using which is essentially giving an XP allotment for the amount of the dungeon explored, discovering specific features in hex exploration, and providing information to civilized people that then actually do something with it (establishing a trade route, garrisoning a formerly abandoned keep, etc).Overall I just found it too fiddly without any real advantage.
>>93217477>There's gotta be a way to keep powerful undead scary but less punitive
How difficult would it be to adapt Final Fantasy 1 to an OSR campaign? Red Mage = Elf basically?
>tfw you learn not every town had a market historicallyWhat was the point of towns without a market? Just settlements that happen to have a higher population density by chance?
>>93221603They tend to be gathering points for safety and to trade with each other.Sure you might not have an official market place, but having a priest, a pub and a prick that can pin on a horseshoe are kind of helpful.
>>932188181. Supplements / kits / complete manuals are great and balanced and highly recommended.2. Don't let grogs convince you to use XP for gold, use the default rules, they work great.3. Use method VII from Player's Option: Skills and Powers to determine ability scores: 75 points to distribute as you please. Your players will be grateful for it.4. Remove level limits.
>>93220933Nah, Fortitude / Reflex / Will all the way. The five saves are outdated, they only reason to use them is if you have a kink of fetish.
>>93221127In my campaign levels are drained, but recovered with a long rest. My players are happy with it.
>>93218871>The powers and options books (2.5 edition in effect) sucked. Stay away.Sounds like you've never tried them. We've been using them for years and never had any problems with them.
>>93218731Why would you go around shitting on other people's games? If they have fun the way the play it should be none of your concern.
Nice post on how to make a Mork Borg sandbox FOR FREEhttps://murkdice.substack.com/p/make-a-mork-borg-sandbox-for-free
>>93218731>if I can't shit on everyone for ever minor perceived infraction is it really openIf you're going to be a pissy faggot, /osrg/ is always therefor you.
>>93222354>>93221860Pissy faggot wants to argue, don't waste your keystrokes.
My time has come. >If you were to take one class/race/rule out of D&D, what would it be?I don't know what I would take out but multiclass has always been a problem>What is your favorite retroclone/OSRlike?I haven't played any>Who was your favorite D&D character in any session you’ve played in? Ilyrr Dreamingmoon, 11/13 f/m Bladesinger kit from 2e. He has Mordenkainken's Force Missiles and was nearly unstoppable. Tenser's Transformation was awesome in 2e, too, and he had that as well iirc >As a GM, do you allow Dragon Magazine classes/races?Yes, absolutely>What are your thoughts on WotC and their treatment of the TSR editions?I wish they would quit killing the sacred cows. There was a damn good reason why D&D made it this far
>>93222734>multiclass has always been a problemhttps://deltasdnd.blogspot.com/2010/05/giants-in-earth-index.html>Multiclassing is essential. More than a quarter of these characters are multiclassed (12/42 = 29%).><The authors frequently found that, in simulating these characters in game terms, they had to mix-and-match abilities from different D&D classes. In almost every case the level ratios are different, showing that it's reasonable in the genre to have a lot of one archetypal class, a little bit of another class, etc.>This is part of the reason why I'm a little dumbfounded at how many people are willing to accept the Holmes/BXCMI-style abandonment of multiclassing (and the even heavier restriction of race-as-class). Clearly even the AD&D regulations on the practice were unreasonable, as the authors found it necessary to freely break or bend those rules. A free mix-and-match multiclassing rule, as suggested by the Original D&D rules, turns out to be necessary for a wide array of classic pulp character types.
I think I've finally set on a hex map template I like. Similar to this image, the large hex pictured here would be 8 miles, numbered small sub-hexes ONLY used for index referencing sites of interest and travel costs within a hex abstracted (small hex 0B-07 has a lair).Players can either travel overland in 8 mile hex scale as per Moldvay expert/Mystara rules, large hexes are just described with dominant terrain (you are in a hill hex, north to southeast are plains, south is mountains, etc), if players want to explore WITHIN the hex, I simply give them a 360 description of visible points of interest and I don't worry about tabulating sub-hex movement.
I want to start a campaign by having the players be friends (or at least share mutual friends who are also in the party) from the same town/city/fort/village attacked by humanoids. I feel like it gives characters greater motivation if they were already friends from the beginning.My question is this: I’m running Swords and Wizardry, where RAW, Paladins cannot adventure with anyone of nonlawful alignment, including thieves and druids (and assassins, though I can’t really see the latter being picked for this kind of campaign). If someone does pick a paladin and one of those two classes, how do I work around this restriction?
>>93223425Paladins are pretty rare. You are probably putting the cart before the horse. I don’t have a copy of S&W in front of me. Are you sure fellow adventurers must be Lawful or is it that they can’t be Chaotic?
>>93223461S&W removes stat restrictions on paladins. As a tradeoff, they don’t inherently get the same abilities as fighters (so no multiattack or strength score bonus). As for what S&W Complete says:>Alliances: Paladins will not work with characters other than those of Lawful alignment unless ordered to do so by a superior officer of the Paladin’s order, by a Lawful prince, or by the high priest of a Lawful temple.
>>932231451) While being flexible is an advantage, no given game system needs to be able to simulate every possible fantasy character concept. 2) AD&D's multiclassing is a mess.3) Rather than trying to create a universal formula to cover all class combinations (which I think is a neat idea, but hard to perfect in actual execution), you can create classes that are defacto combinations, such as Basic D&D's Elf, who is essentially a fighter/magic-user. Those classes can be individually tailored to have the proper balance (though Elf, notably, doesn't).4) You need to be careful when creating any multiclass or defacto multiclass system that you don't take away the things that make the single-classes interesting. You don't want everybody to end up a muddy grey mix of fighter/magic-user/thief.
>>93223425Paladins are dumb for precisely this reason, but you can always ignore the alignment restriction, and maybe refashion the concept of the class some in the process. Maybe think of them like knights of the round table, who sketchy stuff, but still stood for honor. You do, however, need a party that is basically compatible in its ethos. Do-gooders out to rid the land of darkness and kill-innocent-villagers-and-take-their-gold murder hobos don't jive. It's not a bad idea to get the group together and have them agree on the type of approach they want to take, and then make characters accordingly. That's not to say that nobody will cause trouble if you do that, but at least there will have been a talk and some basis for deciding who's out of line.
>>93220944>You playing D&D since 1983 is as irrelevant to the topic as if you've been playing D&D since 2023.While I agree that having played a long time doesn't necessarily make my opinions any more valid, it does at least show that I'm well familiar with the system and not just reacting against something that's alien or making a snap judgment. And the tone of the post I was responding to had a very puritanical feel to it, so I was trying to head off one line of argument before it even happened.
>>93223656>puritanicalDo you faggots know any other buzzwords that don't betray your fear of religion?And how the fuck is it "puritanical" to call out a game for failing at its stated goal? Is it "puritanical" to say Ravenloft fails at its stated goal of being a gothic horror setting because it's built from AD&D?
>>93223425Assuming the assassin isn't outright "chaotic dickhead", let them venture in the same group, but entice the assassin with opportunities for selfish ends, but make sure the paladin knows his god wants him to intervene without immediately jumping to revoking his station. Either one changes his ways or the other does (becomes a different alignment and class).
>>93223614>Maybe think of them like knights of the round table, who sketchy stuff, but still stood for honor.Funny thing- there was a S&W book released recently- Book of Options- that introduced the Chivalric Knight, taking after the Cavalier of AD&D. The issue is that while it’s less restrictive than the paladin, it kind of sucks at dungeon crawling. It’s more of an overland/social character, with its horse-related abilities and social perks.
>>93223766I’m not sure about that. An honorable guy who fights for what’s right would seriously object to working with an unrepentant killer who does it for money. Gygax opposed an official antipaladin class partially on the grounds that the assassin is already an anti-paladin, and while I don’t agree with his conclusion, his reasoning is pretty sound.
>>93223492I guess the simplest answer is remove the restriction or contrive some reason the paladin is ordered to travel with the hopefully no worse than Neutral party. It seems like a weird anti-fun restriction to me. Like the paladin player can literally be stymied by a single choice of another player. I get why paladins are what they are but it seems like very blunt design to me.
>>93223931That does seem like the sensible option. I could see paladins be a bit lax when it comes to neutral characters that don’t consistently offend their moral code.
>>93214396You don't want to give them XP outside of adventuring. A scenario where they just train is not really ideal for a game.For the stat increases, have them roll 3d6, if the number is higher than their current stat value they gain 1. This should naturally drop off the gains as they get higher stats. you also probably want to cap the gain. Say 6 points of increased stats per player, across all stats.For the steroids I would straight up have them get +1 strength, but lose 1 int and cha. Roid rage and steroids aging your brain faster.
>>93217477I don't think so! What you should do is let players know ahead of time that wights and wraiths can drain their precious levels away. Second, give your clerics a secret WIS roll to know that there maybe 'level draining undead' wandering about. Third there are plenty of spells and pre-cautions they can use to make sure they don't get hit and consequently level drained, such as stacking buff spells on fighters to the point where the wight needs a natural 20 to hit him. There is a also a 3rd level priest spell (at least in adnd 2e) called negative plane protection which lasts the priests level in turns and basically gives the recipient a saving throw to resist getting attacked and if successful the undead takes damage. Fourthly, if a player does get level drained make sure they are at the start of their new level and two sessions later give them a book or a limited wish to regain the exact amount of missing XP.Ppl play old school RPGS because 5e and PF aren't exciting anymore don't take away one of the few hair raising things left in the game. Remember, undead are supposed to be the ultimate and most dangerous enemy. I play a story focused FR 2e game and even I don't cuck (all the way) on level drain!
>>93223145>A free mix-and-match multiclassing rule, as suggested by the Original D&D rules, turns out to be necessary for a wide array of classic pulp character types.Who cares? Everyone is playing heroic fantasy anyway. Pulp stuff has largely been forgotten and rightly so.
>>93223425>how do I work around this restriction?Write a good backstory in which you tell how the characters met and became friends and how they fit in the story arc of your campaign.
>>93223830>it kind of sucks at dungeon crawling. It’s more of an overland/social character, with its horse-related abilities and social perks.Based. I have to look into it, dungeons are kinda stupid, my campaign focuses on those things anyway.
>>93223856>Daddy opposed an official antipaladin classOh no! Anyway
Has anybody published an expansion to Deities and Demigods with statistics for Abrahamic gods and heroes? Abraham, Noah, David, Goliath, Jesus, Mary, the Holy Ghost, Mohammed, and so on?
>>93224227>I don't think so!Well, I do. I've ignored it at my table for some time already.>Fourthly, if a player does get level drained make sure they are at the start of their new level and two sessions later give them a book or a limited wish to regain the exact amount of missing XP....thereby negating the threat entirely. I don't know that "immediately undo the effects of it" being one of your big ticket solutions is a ringing endorsement. I'd rather just substitute it with something else.>don't take away one of the few hair raising things left in the gameThere's a difference between "hair raising" stakes and a giant middle finger to your player and the time they've spent at your table with their character. Daddy Gary may have played that bullshit on his table, but for my money I'm gonna continue challenging my players instead of testing their patience.There are already a million ways to die in any of these games. Danger isn't in want. It's a significant time investment (by Gary's own words, I might add) to get some levels under a characters belt. >Remember, undead are supposed to be the ultimate and most dangerous enemyLmao, who said that? Did Gary say that? Because even in 2E I can find a lot more powerful creatures than the lowest HD undead with level drain and nice THAC0. Level drain doesn't pose some skill challenge. Either you've allowed your players the time to develop and get Negative Plane Protection or maybe but probably not Restoration or you haven't and throw level drain at them and they eat shit. And "Don't get hit or eat shit" isn't a thrilling tactical situation in my book.>I play a story focused FR 2e gameHaha.
Thoughts on the "BroSR" people? Reading thishttps://www.secretsofblackmoor.com/blog/the-king-is-dead-developing-arc-story#:~:text=Dave%20Arneson's%20Blackmoor%20Campaign%20is,%22The%20King%20is%20Dead.I can't help but conclude the "patron play" thing that the so-called "BroSR" espouses as the REAL way to emulate Arneson and Gygax's home campaigns is total bullshit. The above article pretty unambiguously indicates that in Blackmoor it's the GM's job to run the world, not the players'.Amongst other contradictions of the "BroSR". Like the fact that Gygax's son has testified that Gary ran him through dungeons pretty much exclusively.Question: might the annoying posters that suffocated /osrg/ with the "play AD&D RAW" shit have been these "BroSR" types?
>>93225906It's fun regardless if gygax did it or not. Letting players run monster factions is fun.
>>93225906>If you want to argue this point with me, I will wave my wand of negation and tell you this: without a referee you aren't playing an RPG, you are playing something else, which is fine if that is what you like.Personally I'd immediately discard anything this person has to say just because they sound like a smug cunt.I am waggling my own personal wand of negation and its just as legitimate as his because they're both backed by the same patron; Ms Sweet-Fanny Adams.No backing from those they're claiming believed this, no direct references, no quotations, just the pontification of an opinion wrapped in a thin veneer of cum left over from jerking off over how clever he is.Now with that said; BroSR doesn't seem out of line with having arcs from what I've heard of it, even if players have enough influence and power to leverage against the fates/create their own dungeons and shit, there's still a common world which exists prior and beyond their characters which has its own logic.It'd be 100% in line with BroSR arguments to go 'Alright, game setting is the dark lord has fallen (orcs must die), there's a fantasy equivalent of the scramble for Africa as various factions work to carve up Mordor. Create a patron who represents your faction and lets rattle some dice'The arc of 'Mordor has fallen, African Warlord shit ensues between his servants, grab yourself some high end succubus pussy before its all gone' is still an active, ongoing and dynamic threat, even if players are creating their own goals and have the resources to fuck around.Reading through what's been posted, whoever is writing it seems more on the neurotic, controlling end of things, where they want players to not be able to divert the course of whatever is happening even if they decide that it's the thing they want to throw all their energy into and should, once they're powerful enough, be in a position to change.Which is some Hickman tier shit.
I've always played with level draining undead and my tables have typically enjoyed it. You'd be surprised what players will embrace once you break them out of the modern WOTC/videogame mindset. Of course if you haven't already psychologically whittled down your players to accept OSR, hitting them with level drain while they still wear their diapers can be somewhat of a culture shock.
>>93226021>Which is some Hickman tier shit.Okay grog.
>>93226124>Not liking 'It's okay to railroad your players if it's for the great'r good' is GrogIf that's the case then call me Blackbeard the alcoholic pirate, because I'm so full of grog that it sweats from my pours.At its foundation the Hickman manifesto argues that player agency is an illusion and the only person at the table who can make any legitimate decisions on what's going to happen is the DM.Fucketh that.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dU8VPQsTqFU
>>93226102>If you don't play like I say you still wear diapersThanks for the insightful lesson granpa.
>>93223145While necessary for some character concepts, it's always been implemented poorly imo. I like it but I'm convinced it could be done better i.e. better balancedDo you guys remember dual classing? Kek
>>93226102>I've always played with level draining undeadWell I've always dragged things and I see no reason to use this stupid wheel devilry.
>>93223747Do you ever wish you knew what the fuck you were talking about? Puritanical doesn't have to have any religious connotation at all, moron
>>93226202I use a universal xp progression (the Fighter one) and basically allow players to level up in whatever class they want ad long as it fits the story reasonably, for escape they have to say in advance what they are training for if they want to take a level in a new class in the next level. It works great, you should try it.
>>93225302Probably but can you imagine how problematic that would be?
>>93226230>for EXAMPLE they have to say in advance
>>93226143Actually know what, I'm going to go even a step beyond that.The Hickman manifesto doesn't argue that the only agency at the table should lay with the DM.It argues that the only agency at the table should lay with the game/adventure designer. Which often isn't even someone present.It doesn't just create imbalance, it argues for fundamentally removing a good portion of agency from the situation entirely.Because you, as DM, shouldn't have it within your power to fuck up the designers plot arcs, or have characters capable of changing their carefully crafted world.There's a reason that 'Oh and if you hit level X, you get yeet out the setting and into another one' became so common in 2e, because with power comes the capacity to influence things beyond merely the point of your sword.>>93226201>We take in players' desires and aspirations, read their backgrounds carefully and->Then decide what they want for them, regardless of if they've said it aloud or notI'm not even going to be kind enough to give you that, you take what players want and carefully cultivate it to fit with what Daddy already decided about the setting before it even got to your table.But go ahead, keep deep throating Elminsters cock, because Elminster is the logical final endstate of Hickmanism. A DMPC that's not even yours and who has a super special secret organization of CIA glowies to make sure the players don't go off the path. Not your path as DM mind you, The Path. The one that's objectively right according to the games setting and canon regardless of if you OOC agree with it or not; and those glowies? 100% in the right, no nuance, no consideration, as DM you don't decide if they're misguided, evil, ect, you're told by someone who isn't even at the table that potato farmin' is a wrong un and worthy of a Ruby Ridge'ing.But hey, I'm sure if you hit the base you'll taste Mystra in the back of your throat.
>>93226232Is it more problematic than statting up Vishnu and Amaterasu?
>>93226230I didn't play those editions anymore, which is a shame, but I got tired of the incessant arguments at the table
>>93226246Probably not but this gave was produced in the West, not the East. So it was a Western idea of what those deities are, and not that accurate. I'm assuming because I'm not an expert on Eastern religions by now means though I did study Amaterasu a bit back in the day because I was playing (poorly) a paladin of hers. Upshot, I don't know, honestly.
>>93226250What do you play? What issues did you have playing old-school D&D with your group?
>>93226209>"Your character isn't important" doesn't mean "I as the DM am God controlling Fate itself" (Hickman), it means "you are not the center of the universe". The article in fact directly calls out railroading. But also it doesn't go OGRE EGG, as it says for example, that collaboration between player and referee is paramount, and if a player wants to literally play an adventuring monster for example, the referee should lean towards compromise to make the concept work with the setting. Having a backstory isn't Literally Satan either, if it makes a player happy to have some context for their character, let them, just don't overdo it by writing a novel, is basically what the article says. Surprisingly reasonable takes coming from the first fantasy campaign!See, I can agree with all of that. I just don't think that's what it's saying.Everything you've said is reasonable, I just don't read it in that article.Still, agree to disagree on it, I'd buy you a pint if I could to break even on it.
>>93226242That's a long ass slippery slope fantasy of how bad a campaign has to go if you such at DM'ing, but the truth is that the Hickman Manifesto challenges DMs to do the exact opposite of what you claim, you can have both player agency and engaging story lines and character arcs precisely because those story lines and character arcs serve the players' desires.Also>throating Elminsters cock>taste Mystra in the back of your throatYou are making it sound like you have a secret desire to give head but your internalised homophobia is keeping you, granpa.I suggest you try playing good HICKMANNIAN D&D at least once in your life. And if you secretly want to suck cock by all means go for it, buddy. Be yourself.
>>93226285>That's a long ass slippery slope fantasyHe said as if I hadn't given an actual example of a setting which reached that end game. Nice attempt though.Oh who are we kidding, it was a pathetic attempt.>You're mocking me, that secretly means-Pic related.
>>93226246The issue is, millions of people worship the Abrahamic religions, and not all of them are as relaxed about it as a bunch of educated midwestern Americans. People who worship Vishnu, Amaterasu, and Odin are generally considered weirdos and outcasts, both in the 70’s and today. With the Abrahamic faiths, you’d get everyone and their mother trying to end the game’s existence, from the uneducated southerners to the jews in Hollywood to the Muslims. Quite simply, there wouldn’t be a D&D today if they included the Abrahamic faiths.
>>93226300>make big show of being afraid of spiders>actually want to fuck spidersIt's more common than you think. Though still not nearly as common as homophobes who want to fuck homos. "Homophobe" doesn't mean the same thing as other phobias.
>>93226310>People who worship Vishnu, Amaterasu, and Odin are generally considered weirdos and outcasts, both in the 70’s and today.NTA. As far as I understand, Vishnu is worshipped by a billion or so Indians.
>>93226328But that’s all in one country, compared to the vast majority of Europe, the Middle East, and the western hemisphere worshipping the Abrahamic faiths (on top of small pockets in Africa and Asia). To call Hinduism a major religion is to become the opposite equal of those Americans that think the whole world is like America.
Man can you imagine if they statted Mohammed.The sheer frenzy it would cause.
>>93226356There are apparently a bit more than twice as many Christians as Hindus, which is obviously a major difference, but saying that a religion with 1.2 billion followers isn't a major one is kind of ridiculous. That's 15% the population of the entire Earth. And sure, Hinduism isn't as geographically widespread as Christianity, with the vast majority of its believers in India, but India is the most populous country in the world, with more people than all of North America and Europe combined.The difference here is obviously what the other anon said, about Hinduism not being nearly as big where D&D was created and played.
>>93226356>>93226398Hinduism is the 3rd biggest actual religion (not counting "irreligious") and the biggest non-Abrahamic one (since Christianity and Islam take up the #1 and #2 positions). It's definitely a major religion
>>93225179>Who cares? Everyone is playing heroic fantasy anyway. Pulp stuff has largely been forgotten and rightly so.Other way around. Well-rounded characters are the norm. Guess who popularized the idea of pigeonholing characters into classes? Yep, D&D.If I have a choice between Indiana Jones and Elf Ranger #35732, I know who the better character is.
Ah yes, the ol' religion general on /tg/ traditional games.
>>93226632For a rpg game, wouldn't classes be necessary? It's just a way to quantify your "job". Sure, it can be done without classes but you still lean a certain way. Fighters fight, wizards cast spells, druids do their nature things, clerics heal, paladins do the justice thing, etc. It's not as dire as all that. Not that you don't have a point but elf #35732 can be totally different from elf #35731 and elf #35733 with the right choices. Just my opinion
>>93226760It's interesting, at least. Productive, maybe not, but interesting.
>>93226760I will take it over whatever /osrg/ has become
To branch off the conversation of major real world religions, the games of D&D I've been in, including the ones I've run, have always had a large, indeterminate number of deities that only really become relevant when somebody has a tie to one of them (whether that be a cleric PC, or a group of cultists the PCs are going up against). I was just thinking it might be interesting to have a small number of major deities--say a half dozen--with a large effect on the world, much as real world religions have had. This would drastically narrow the gods for clerics to follow, but it would make religion feel a lot more relevant.
>>93226971I've been think of setting up a "rejects pantheon". Take B and C tier deities from various religions who got somehow ousted from their realm and into the campaign world where they vie for dominance of their domain.
>>93227324The goddess of the front doorstep vs. the god of awkward goodbyes?
Has anyone houseruled fatigue or exhaustion in their games?
>>93227738That sounds incredibly unfun and awful, so, no.
>>93227324lolA lot of them would dramatically change form in order to fill niches in the local ecosystem, much like in island ecosystems, so you might not necessarily recognize them even if you were familiar with their previous form.
>>93227872Do you mean the act of houseruling the matter is awful and unfun, or that using exhaustion/fatigue in general is awful and unfun? For me it's the BX exhaustion rules, but if you ignore them that's fine too.
Why do Clerics by default have spells suggestive of a connection to snakes?
>>93228491Do you even old testament bro?
>>93228506Jews don't exist in my setting.
>>93228543No Jews, No Jeebus.No Jeebus, no Moharded.No Moharded, world peace.Imagine.
It always bothered me how the primary/secondary attribute designation and the actual modifiers were divorced in Castles & Crusades, so I mad this to connect them.
>>93216927These look pretty fun - will consider using
>>93218338dick
>>93218457>3efag. Mechanically they're an absolute garbage firedick
>>93221784
>>93226232took the bait. Lot of trolls coming after /todd/ it looks to me (or more likely, 1-2 persistent trolls)
>>93230023They said *finest*, not *true*. The fact that you had to twist that Anon's words shows you have no argument and can't accept the truth.
>>93229922Very elegant, is it compatible with 2e?
>>93227894NTA. I find that that kind of rule slows down the story unnecessarily. Players want to find out what happens next, not play a game of "update the number of rations and fatigue levels on your character sheets, and the recalculate encumbrance ONCE AGAIN".
>>93215862Heroes of the Feywilds is what I would pick for 4E.
>>93231318What do you like about it? Is there anything worth porting to 2e in it?
>>93221178We don't do OSR here. That term is a poison pill, we're the TODD community now. It Just Works!
>>93231818Kek fuck off troll!
>>93221178I mean, I guess as long as you get rid of permadeath, you can run it just fine as-is in 0e and potentially BX/BECMI, 1e, and 2e.
>>93233498Pretty dope. Did you make that?
>>93214445Buffing potions (enlarge/berserk) fighting prowess via attack/damage buffs, the potions are needed to actually gain the normal benefits to begin with, etc etc
>>93214820Thanks so much dude! I've been looking for this for forever ever since it was originally posted
>>93214690It's weird. I find it interesting to ponder/discuss how to stat firearms in a game like D&D, but I'd hate to actually include them. For whatever reason, it kills the fantasy vibe for me. In a world of swords and spears, magic clicks, but introduce guns and suddenly I'm approaching things more scientifically, and magic just seems hokey and like somebody trying to convince me that astrology is real. Also, while I'm perfectly cognizant that there was technological development before gunpowder, guns revolutionized the battlefield in such a huge way in such a short time that including them in a game feels like a ticking clock to the point at which guns override other shit. So I just end up with this feeling of dissonance.
>>93233531>Did you make that?I don't honestly know. Probably? I just came across it looking through old files, and I initially thought it was something I downloaded, but there was a period where I was reading up on different gemstones a little bit and downloading pics to use for treasure, and I do remember consider magical properties for them. And the approach and wording fits here fits with something I might do, so I'm leaning towards it being something I created, but I could potentially be mistaken.
One of my players wants to make a Genasi Bard who sings and augments their performances with elemental effects. How to I port one to 2e?
>>93233944I mean the Genasi part of course, the Bard part is obvious.
>>93226209Why was this post deleted?
>>93234124I was warned for "irrelevant copypastas or catchphrases" btw. I'm assuming that's referring to use of OGRE EGG, for some reason. Why would OGRE EGG be an issue if FOE GYG was never an issue?
>>93234144Perhaps the janny invested in steering the conversation on this topic in a more healthy direction than /osrg/? If that's the case, I praise them for it. We don't need that kind of gatekeeping here, this place is for OPEN discussion.
>>93234156I do not believe that post violated the spirit of this thread, anymore than pointing out "this style of play is known for grognard attitudes, which is the reason for its controversy" (which is what I basically wrote).
>>93234144>Why would OGRE EGG be an issue if FOE GYG was never an issue?Because FOEGYG or its derivatives are antithetical to the spirit of this conversation. If you have a catch phrase to use as a device of gatekeeping it is not open conversation.This is not a secret club with passwords and hand signs.
