Insaneway EditionPrevious Thread: >>92971465 (Dead)A thread for discussing the 'Star Trek' franchise and its various tabletop adaptations.Game ResourcesStar Trek Adventures-Official Modiphius Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)>http://www.modiphius.com/star-trek.html-PDF Collection>https://www.mediafire.com/folder/0w33ywljd1pdt/Star_Trek_Adventures-Homebrew Collection>https://continuingmissionsta.com/Older Licensed RPGs (FASA, Last Unicorn Games and Decipher)>http://pastebin.com/ndCz650pOther (Unlicensed) RPGS (Far Trek + Lasers and Feelings)>http://pastebin.com/uzW5tPwS Star Trek: Attack Wing-Official WizKids Page (Rules, FAQ and Player Resources)>http://wizkids.com/attackwing/star-trek-attack-wing/Star Trek: Ascendancy-Official Gale Force Nine Page (Rules and Player Resources)>http://startrek.gf9games.com/Star Trek: Fleet Captain-Official WizKids Page (Rules and Player Resources)>https://wizkids.com/star-trek-fleet-captains/Star Trek: Into the Unknown-Starter Ruleshttps://drive.google.com/file/d/1w8nb0ow28rE9SWPCp10wOGZWmGoTetYQ/view?pli=1Lore ResourcesMemory Alpha - Canon wiki>http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Portal:MainMemory Beta - Noncanon wiki for licensed Star Trek works>http://memory-beta.wikia.com/wiki/Main_PageFan Sites - Analysis of episodes, information on ships, technobabble and more>http://pastebin.com/mxLWAPXFStar Trek Maps - Based on the Star Trek Star Charts, updated and corrected>http://www.startrekmap.com/index.html/stg/ Homebrew Content>http://pastebin.com/H1FL1UyP>Thread Question:Is there actually a way to do a Borg mission that isn't a TPK and at the same time doesn't compromise the sense of threat?
>>93222972>TQI have actually never dealt with Borg in my game directly. My character has issues with them though because the Borg killed his brother at Wolf 359. Been in this game for like two years now, might ask the GM about it.
>>93223002I always felt Voyager went too far in kneecapping the threat of the Borg, even while they showed incredible abilities that should have made them a greater threat. the Queen once remote hacked Voyager's computers just to have a chat with Janeway and for some reason tossed in something like, "See you soon, Harry." She never just shut off life support with a thought or flooded every deck with Anesthizine.I've never had a run-in either, but I figure the best way to do it is small scale. With that kind of character history even a run-in with a PIC style XB is fodder for drama, easy. Might even make for a wild villain. Imagine a Soran-type character who claims he can't function outside of the Collective and will do anything, sacrifice anything, to get back. Maybe the Borg ignored the person as being too damaged and corrupted to re-assimilate so instead tries to lure the Borg to a colony as if he can bribe his way back in.That or a small Borg scout ship with limited drones like the crashed ship where Hugh was discovered.
>>93222972>Is there actually a way to do a Borg mission that isn't a TPK and at the same time doesn't compromise the sense of threat?Pull a Ninth Doctor and have a mission revolving entirely around how much of a threat one single drone can be.
Idk too much about Trek, just some seasons of TNG+Disco/SNW. If a time traveler from the past/future found themselves somehow permanently stuck in a crews timeline, are they allowed to Join Starfleet even if they might be from say a medieval society who wouldn't ordinarily qualify for Federation Contact, or a future society who might have greater knowledge of future events? Or do those types just get taken by The Department of Temporal Investigations?
So looks like the new season of Prodigy has dropped. Got to admit I like the idea of a science vessel having classrooms. Makes way more sense than the flagship which is always getting in danger. Good chances for learning experience for the kiddies, though probably not much safer than frontline combat with how crazy Federation scientists can behave. I also like the idea of Starfleet cadets (or proto-cadets?) in the field, though that's not new. Wesley and Red Squad were things. I doubt I can get my players to accept it. I may find the idea intriguing storywise but they still want the ranks. Maybe they'll surprise me.Also not even twenty minutes into the first episode it's clear The Doctor is already mentally cataloging poisons to slip into Jankom Pog's food.
>>93223173I'd say that depends. Gillian Taylor from The Voyage Home was just a whale biologist from the 20th Century but assigned to a science vessel. She wasn't Starfleet, though, and it's possible neither was the ship. That said, it's certainly doable. I'd say this is far more likely if someone came from the past but doesn't want to go back. If they came from the future their future knowledge is too much of a potential threat to the timeline. Not sure whether they'd wipe themselves out of existence or not, that tends to depend on the plot. Time travel can be extremely inconsistent in Star Trek. Really the only way I can imagine someone not being able to be shoved back in a timehole. Plotwise sometimes people from, say, the 29th Century show up having detected you as a temporal anomaly and put you back where you belong. But sometimes they don't. Like I said, very inconsistent. One reason I can imagine a person will be stuck is if they are the only survivor from a timeline that doesn't exist. Starfleet may have accepted alternate history Tasha Yar when she traveled back in time with the Ent-C and this time avoided becoming part of some Romulan's harem.She has some knowledge that could be dangerous, but the further into the future you get from that point the more the history she knows is already different. As a Starfleet officer she might be trusted to adhere to the Temporal Prime Directive where not even an admiral can order her to break it.
>>93223082You don't need a reason to mess with Harry.
>>93223315This is very true, though there are probably worse ways to fuck with Harry like saying, "The Borg have studied the timeline, Harry, and in every possible iteration of the future you'll always be an ensign.""C-captain, can't you just promote me right now to spite her?""I'm sorry, ensign, but I'm now bound by the Temporal Prime Directive to ensure you're never promoted."Best part is the audience has seen alternate futures that prove the Queen is lying.
>>93223082Hacking comms is not the same as hacking life support. And she struggled to hack comms; we don't know how many cubes were turned over to those calculation (though if they're using quantum encryption, or trying to break Data-style "fractal encryption" or some combination of equally fantastic devices, it would take significant processing power). Those cubes' time might otherwise be served assimilating entire worlds (where encryption doesn't really matter once you've assimilated enough of the people who know the access codes).And the Queen might even have had a reasonable guess, almost a man in the middle, either extrapolating from information seized during "Scorpion" or "Dark Frontier", if not from observations of Voyager by other means. Sure, Tuvok would have changed all the command codes - but a near-omniscient collective could easily guess how a Vulcan, or any other members of Voyager's crew, might choose to make those changes. It's even possible that assimilating Starfleet ships elsewhere threw up a comms hardware vulnerability that Tuvok couldn't have known about, or perhaps hadn't had time or the means to fix.If anything, the fact that the collective was willing to dedicate that much effort to simply talking indicates how weak the Queen's position already was. She knew Voyager was a serious threat with or without Unimatrix Zero, or she'd have sent a dozen cubes and assimilated it long before.
>>93223698>Hacking comms is not the same as hacking life support.It mind of is. Comms are extremely secured aboard Starfleet ships for many different reasons, though yes on occasion someone finds a way around it (depending on the story this is sometimes a temporary thing). In order to remote hack something that secure on the ship from a "transwarp signal" is pretty fucking wild. She also fucked with their moodlighting to put some Borg green on the occasion. Who knew the Queen had it in her? It should also be noted that she'd been accessing Seven's alcove for far longer, and in the finale not only linked to it to speak to Seven but caused an overload that nearly fried Seven's brain just to be emphatic about the point she was making. Yeah the alcove was Borg tech but it's not like Voyager hadn't taken great pains, including by Seven herself, in making certain it was safe for the ship to keep around.
>>93223273By the second episode a rift in space opens and a mysterious entity tells Janeway not to fuck around with time portals (somewhere in history Captain Braxton bursts out in laughter) or she'll end everything. Janeway's reply makes it clear she'll do whatever she wants whenever she wants.Well bros, it looks like Insaneway is definitely back on the menu.
>>93223698I'd have to go with comms being more vital to protect than life support, at least in context of a remote hack. That's solely because stopping anyone from hacking into your comms is how you also stop them from spreading into other systems like life support.Setting aside the Borg for a moment exploiting comms is also how the dumbasses in Prodigy intended to destroy the Federation. Once the Construct had access to comms it had all your systems. It's hard to imagine the Vau N'Akat were more adept at software programming than the Borg, but theoretically possible until the Borg assimilated enough coders to catch up (including just assimilating the Vau N'Akat if they wanted). The Borg said it couldn't be removed or deactivated, then attempted to assimilate it. That last bit miiiiight have been superfluous though if the kids gave the Borg a detailed enough record to analyze. Dal really should have paid more attention to Holo Janeway's warnings. It was likely a vector of attack the Borg hadn't considered but now they've got the idea, if not the tech.I guess prefix codes do jack shit by this point in history. Especially when Starfleet Security can remote detonate your ship anyway (thanks PIC). I know, Starfleet Security would likely have the prefix codes. I still loathed that plot point. Still not sure why that captain killed himself instead of shooting the comms array so Commodore Oh couldn't do jack shit.
>>93223984
>>93223984Why isn't this woman President?
>>93224419Turns out in the Federation you can't actually run for President if you're a felon. So many war crimes. So many still smoldering areas of the Delta Quadrant.
>>93224435How can there be war crimes if there was no war, anon?
>>93223375
>>93224852I think you mean how can there be a war if she crashed the quadrant with no survivors.
>>93224884Why does he only have an ensign pip?
>>93224906You've heard of a lieutenant commander, right? Sergeant major? Lieutenant colonel? Well after years of service dedicated to filling the ran of ensign and only ensign, Harry Kim was promoted to a new position created solely for him: Ensign Admiral. It comes with a snazzier uniform and absolutely no greater responsibilities, duties, powers, or privileges. It's essentially the Starfleet version of an honorary degree. But, hey, he gets to salute himself in the mirror!
>>93225717I don't like the Voyager A. Feels like an early STO design in need of a visual overhaul.
>>93226355It looks like they tried to interpolate between a couple of designs and they got neither fish nor fowl.But it still could have been worse.
>>93226355>>93226441I think it fits the era well, as established by the later movies. And it's not like they're having to define the look for the next 20 years.
>>93227122Yeah, my initial impression is that this is the Sovereign-ization of the Intrepid-Class. In fact I thought that was exactly what they were going for.
>>93222972There is for sure.
>>93223984At least Janeway was content to wait for the optimal chance not to fuck with the timeline, but, yeah she was still going into the rift even though she was told not to. No glowing energy anomaly tells HER what to do when it comes to getting her crew back home.Also when that Vulcan chick blamed Dal for them leaving early when it was actually her fault because she wanted to snitch on the mission to Starfleet despite not knowing all the facts.
>>93224884Poor Kim...
>>93224343I love how Jellico was cagey enough to find a way to control Janeway. Normally she'd be the first to jump at the chance to disobey an order, putting all of reality at risk, to do what she wanted, even if it's ostensibly to help Chakotay. Jellico's solution? Order her to destroy something. Caught between the human need to help a friend in distress, and using a high yield quantum torpedo to collapse a powerful rip across space and time, she choose destruction. She couldn't help herself.
Most of the way through the season now and it picks up significantly in the 2nd half. First couple episodes are a bit of a slog.
Let me know when there's a mega with the entire show.
>>93232221I'm not very far in, but so far I'm conflicted. The first season's format was a lot closer to traditional Trek, largely one-off adventures with a larger arching plot. Closer to DS9 and VOY than TNG, admittedly, but fitting since it leaned heavily into Voyager. The continuation episodes are largely saved for the opening and the ending, with a mid-season cliffhanger regarding the aftermath of defeating the Diviner and the fate of Gwyn after she was Medusaned.Season 2 on the other hand runs with a constant plot continuation more akin to modern Trek. There is far less variation in adventures and you can't quite fit in the usual familiar sense of Trek stories as parables as well. It's more action and suspense driven overall. BUT I still find it rather enjoyable, far more enjoyable than I ever found STD and PIC. It does a wonderful job of feeling like a continuation of Voyager (of sorts) without diminishing the role of the kids or letting it feel like it's not still their show. I think this is because season 1 slow built the relationship with Janeway through her hologram and gave them a connection to Chakotay and understanding of why he's important to their version of history. They've seen how important he is to Janeway through her hologram and know how he helped save the Protostar for them to later find, so they feel a connection to help and have a personal reason to want to help him. So it's not a sense of having to help him because the plot demands, and the plot demands because he's a legacy character and that's the only reason he's really important. They're not shoehorned in is what I'm trying to get at.I'm enjoying the series, but still disappointed the show isn't still one-off missions, this time official with Starfleet, so the kids get the proper experience. There's a "what could have been" feel here.But Robert Picardo still manages to steal every seen he's in even as animation. So many Holo Ricardos...
>>93232238You can always kim cartoon. Use the beta to get 1080p and if you have access to a browser you can just save the video file.
>>93232399Believe it or not, but after about the fifth or sixth episode the kids wind up getting into a series of one-off wacky hijinks that keeps delaying their mission, including a crazy caper to prove who is who against their own holo-clones, wacky races against a TOS-style rogue AI made by (of all people) the Kazon, and meeting a colony of non-corporeal lifeforms. The list goes on. Not quite the same, but still more episodic without fully dropping the overarching mission.Also good news to the anon last thread ( >>93146883 since the one in the op is wrong) who speculated about using Borg transwarp corridors. The racing ep involves traversing an abandoned Borg transwarp corridor. There's ways to activate them for travel, but it's risky and you never know if you might run into still active Borg tech inside. The one in the ep had Kazon on one end of the corridor, so they do go clear across the Delta Quadrant. So good news! It's now an officially canon plot hook if you want to use it!
You do give your characters downtime every now and then to explore hobbies and passions, right?
Talk about a show is cluttering the thread. Not complaining, myself. There's nothing else really going on and I do like new bits of lore. That said, there's a thread on /co/ for PRO they're mostly bitching about crazy hobo Dr. Strange Who Wesley Crusher, and fair enough.Speaking of lore, I'm not too keen on an invincible time devouring monster in a setting where they've got temporal shielding and the like. Usually solution is to technobabble it into submission, like if it hungers for chronitons you give it a dose of the ol' anti-chroniton field.>>93234126Eh, seems like something best handled as a one on one roleplay and that's not really my cuppa. I'm more than happy for players to imagine their backstory or RP with each other as "off-camera" developments, as long as they let me know in case there's anything I can work into a game.
>>93234154The worst offender in the technobabble solution to a crazy scary problem had to be Species 8472. Motherfuckers were so op they could one shot Borg cubes. Rinky dink Voyager takes a hit and some panels spark. The Doctor's nanoprobe idea was also so damn basic. I get the plotpoint that the Borg need to assimilate something in order to understand how to defeat it, but usually they can still adapt by finding beings with similar defenses. Hard to imagine 8472 really was that unique.I don't know, it just bugged me at the time. Still does, to an extent.
>>93230781Well her fault was more of nerv pinching Jankom into headbutting that console>>93232199That´s having the je ne sais quoi that leaders need, the ductility behind the hardness.>>93232399The problem might have been they had to re-arange s2 form the original academy plan.>So many Holo Ricardos...Love how you can get Zero´s I have no mouth, and I must scream
>>93222972Was there ever a definitive reason given as to why Janeway was completely deranged and nobody seemed to notice?
>>93235026apparently the writers' room never really arrived at a consensus about what her character should be, so she winds up completely changing depending on who wrote the episode
>>93235026In setting? It was her first command and she was in way over her head.
>>93234126Pretty much only as an excuse for when a player can’t make it to a session. Someone booked leave to go home for the World Cup. Another went off to a conference on Sasquatch language and behaviour.My favourite, long running excuse is that the ship’s officers keep on trying to put on a production of Macbeth and suffering injuries in unexplained accidents right before they’re set to perform.
>>93235026Berman´s terminal allergy to continuity, causing >>93235054
>>93236584Bombard it with chroniton radiation, done
>>93237157It's not a Wormhole alien, gosh darnit.
>>93238472>>93237157wait so the whole thing with the Defiant's transporters accidentally sending The Sisko™ back to 2024 was that the Defiant's cloaking device which is has always had ever since it was first assigned to DS9 emits chroniton radiationhow many do you think he killed just driving by
>>93238472But it is a temporal shield, so it should be affected by chroniton radiation
>>93239469Not much of a temporal shield if it can't handle the elementary subatomic particle of time.
>>93239043If I recall correctly the cloak emits very low amounts, and the problem with the Defiant is that the chronitons were getting caught in the ablative armor, thus building up. The wormhole aliens are vulnerable to chronitons but a low level won't kill them, merely make them uncomfortable. In the episode The Reckoning the Kai triggered a chroniton flooding of the Promenade and all it did was drive the Prophet and Pah-Wraith out of their host bodies.
>>93239686>>93239043The chronitons trapped in the armor matrix were also highly polarized by the explosion of a microsingularity that just happened to be passing through the solar system. Apparently these chronitons under their normal charge don't fuck with time. Highly polarized? It redirected the transporter signal through history. Presumably the chronitons the pah-wraith inhabiting the Ghost Wife had O'Brien rigging up something highly charged. I don't know, stands to reason the more energetic something is the more likely it is to cause harm. Or maybe not. Hard to say, because just passing through the wormhole may not cause any interaction between the particles with the Prophets anyway. If the chronitons stay within the ship or the ship leaks a low amount of them, the Prophets probably wouldn't even notice.What's interesting is the Prophets also have the power to manipulate chronitons since chronitons are produced by the Orb of Time. It may seem strange, even suicidal, but then I guess it's no different to us building an atomic bomb with radioactive materials that are extremely dangerous to us.
>>93234154It's dead now, but I saw people saying this season was more meddled with by the Kurtz. Maybe, though I got the impression someone in the writer's room submitted a bunch of their Doctor Who fanfics with the names changed hoping nobody would notice. Timey-whimey indeed.
>>93222972>Is there actually a way to do a Borg mission that isn't a TPK and at the same time doesn't compromise the sense of threat?Just do small missions with them. Borg are known to have small away teams (like the ones who picked up Hugh) so the party can interact with them on a much smaller basis. From there you just scale up the threat as needed.
Just spoilering for anyone who hasn't seen the season yet but plans to. I'm surprised Chakotay said he never really belonged in the Maquis. Given how he still felt about them during Voyager, especially after reports they were all killed, it seems... odd? More like the story of losing one family only to gain another as opposed to saying he never belonged with them in the first place. I'm not saying it's a continuity error. I can see what he said from the POV of grizzled, PTSD suffering Chakotay who had chosen to remain with Starfleet after Voyager, became a captain in his own right, and is still coming to terms with losing his entire crew. Probably feels something like losing the Maquis all over again.Got to admit, it's true that he was a shit captain back in the day. Commanded his own raider, had his own crew, but folded so quickly under Janeway becoming her dutiful little second in command. Even if he DID often have better insight and ideas whenever she went off the rails. Alliance with the Borg? The Equinox disaster? It's just for a guy who was a captain of a ship he didn't really feel like it as Janeway's number one. He was her equal at the beginning, with his own crew and command hierarchy (albeit a pretty informal one), I always hated how tidily they surrendered to the familiar Starfleet format. Not to say there weren't some growing pains, but overall... It's why Voyager never did sit right with me, but then we're back to >>93235124 as the reason. They should have taken way more risks with the format, at least early on. Make them EARN being a crew, don't just snap your fingers like Q and declare it.
>>93222972Better question - has anyone had Janeway show up in their games?
I have to admit, I'm not sure what to make of the mirror universe episode. Mirror Janeway is basically Queen Arachnia, which is rather fitting. What gets me is that the Terrans in DS9 were a lot nicer, though still pretty dickish on occasion. More in line with Mirror Spock's reformation plus having been slaves. The New Terran Fleet, on the other hand, is back to being cartoonishly evil as the original TOS Terran Empire.Not that I'm complaining if they just wanted to introduce the young audience to classic Mirror Universe hijinks. I'm interested in what this means. Is this really the resurgent Terrans having thrown off their shackles of oppression and decided, what the hell, let's be oppressors again? Or is it more like the Beta Canon version where Terra remained undefeated, largely, so a portion of the Empire still existed even if Terrans as far away as DS9 were rebelling slaves?For curiosity's sake I hope this is answered in an interview, but from a gaming perspective I find I enjoy the ambiguity. It opens up far more possibilities - not that I've run a Mirror Universe adventure yet. It's tempting in order to create evil versions of the players. I have done something similar with a Q created "funhouse" reality. That was more funhouse mirror opposites rather than strictly evil.
>>93242964Better better question - has anyone had Janeway show up in their game and the players managed to survive the experience?
>>93242992The dicknessmost likely comes from the episode seemingly taking inspiration from the mirror TNG comics from IDW.>>93243001Its possible. Someone dissed cofee in her face and didn´t die on the spot.
>>93242992The whole point of humans in Star Trek generally is that they're the unifying factor between other Federation species because of their understanding of those other species racial traits and history.But for Terrans their unifying power is force. They don't know anything else: it's in their nature to dominate. This is exemplified in the different reactions of Cochrane and Mirror Cochrane to the same event - Vulcans peaceably making first contact. One offers his hand, one pulls a shotgun.It's not that peacemakers don't exist, it's that they're outliers. Even the Vulcans in the MU have clearly come to learn Terran behaviors, but to a lesser degree than the innate reactions of Terrans. Mirror Spock follows Terran behaviors but is relatively easily convinced that they are wrong: Mirror Tuvok, Mirror Soval etc are more or less just Vulcan as we know Vulcans. Mirror T'Pol is somewhat self-interested in an un-Vulcan way, but still broadly interested in at least liberating subjugated species from Terran oppression, and as with Spock etc we can still see that her behaviors are largely rationalization, adapting her conduct to survival.The problem for Mirror Vulcans and other species is that Terrans can't really change. Look at Giorgiou: even when she understands her conduct was wrong, she doesn't become a nicer person, just a friend to the people who helped her. That's not a true understanding of Terran failings in some senses: she still acts Terran, because that's all she knows.
I played the Preview Kit for Star Trek: Into The Unknown earlier this week. I think the game has potential; even with simplified rules, a basic scenario and a single ship each, ship movement felt fun, crew management was interesting and managing alert status / reserve power became critical once shooting became the order of the day. I hope that the Core Set & future expansions build on this, as I'd like more.
>>93245735Sounds nice, hope it gets even better.
>>93245735What sort of length does a game last?
>>93246341The preview kit game took us about an hour and a half, but that was with lots of pausing to read through the rules. No idea how quick a proper game will take.
>>93222972Fuck. Goth Janeway gave me such a boner.
>>93246525Especially when she tried to murder an old man in front of children, including his daughter, by ripping out his life support tubes?
>>93243379>Its possible. Someone dissed cofee in her face and didn´t die on the spot.Likely planning a less public murder for later.
>>93246441Fair enough. I'll wager it's aiming for less than an hour per game. That'll be an easier pitch to my minis/boardgame group.
>>93244060I'm not a huge fan of the notion that Terrans are actually different in any capacity, like STD showing there are biological differences, such as their sensitivity to light. This feels like a potential excuse for why they're all a bag of dicks.Mirror Vulcans seem more like Romulans, but with logic (and emotional suppression but baseline Romulans are also pretty reserved about showing emotions most of the time). Mirror Spock wasn't convinced to do good for the sake of good, he was convinced to do good otherwise the Empire will collapse. He also still had that ruthless quality, knowing he needed the power for his new regime. Some people say that the Terrans were lying that first contact Vulcans were a secret invasion party, but I still think it's telling that none of the Vulcans dispute this fact, even when Mirror T'Pol is more than happy to rub everything else in Mirror Archer's face except for the parts she rubs in Mirror Trip's half-melted face.All this Mirror talk is exhausting!>>93243379Yeah, in the TNG comics Earth/Terra never fell but it was under siege. I also like the idea that Mirror Janeway came back from the Delta Quadrant with her New Terran Fleet. In an ideal mirror universe her crew would have been full of slaves acquired from Delta Quadrant species we're familiar with, but best they could do was have everyone in helmets. Just my guess.
>>93246866I'd say a full game will be tending towards the two hour mark; we don't have full details about how the game works, but the Preview Kit suggests an evolving mission structure where after an initial objective (in the Preview Kit, scanning some stuff) the situation can go in one of two directions depending on how well each side did.
>>93223082>Voyager and the borgJesus fuck. Not this shit again. This was debunked to death.Voyager improved the borg after TNG made them a non threat. TNG after the first borg episode (Q Who)LITERALLY>Destroy the borg collective by talking to one drone about le individualism>It literally worked>Collective literally ended because some human asked "why don't you think for yourself"AHAHAHAHAVoyager improved the borg.Before that on TNG:>Destroy the entire borg colective by showing them a strange looking shape and they all have critical system errorsBefore that on TNG (best of both worlds):>Lets kidnap one drone (Locutus) because the borg literally can not cut of even 1 drone from the collective and lets use this drone to hack/disable one cube.>It literally workedVoyager improved the borg! Since shit like this never ever happened.>Voyager ruined the borgHOW?!While not perfect voyager borg are light years above TNG. Voyager showed that the borg are occupied with a multi dimensional war with species 8472 so they do not have time assimilating literal whose like the federation. Why did the borg not send more cubes after best of worth worlds ??? Literally never answered.The borg on TNG (excluding the episode Q Who ) are beyond comical. >"See you soon, Harry." She never just shut off life support with a thought or flooded every deck with Anesthizine.Welcome to writing 101. You have 3 choices when having a all powerful evil faction:1) They literally win and kill everyone 2) Deus Ex Machina (Q?) reverts their victory every time. 3) The evil faction is comically stupid and stops for monologues and never does a one time kill to the heroes while having comically simply ways to hack and disable them(collective can not into inventing solution for species 8472, you can hack a borg cube because they will not cut of 1 drone)The only options are 2 and 3 and the writers chose 3 despite having Mr. Deus Ex Machina himself Q.
>>93247132I think you miss a few key points namely that what you claim the Borg are vulnerable to in TNG still had similar plotpoints in VOY. To be fair in TNG they THOUGHT they could destroy the entire Collective, but more likely the Borg would have done what they usually do and seen that Cube and its crew as damaged and cut it off from the rest of them. VOY, meanwhile, had a cube taken out by a mere electrokinetic storm, at a loss of 80,000 drones to the Collective. They were fine with that. These drones would become the Cooperative. Janeway also tricked the Queen by freeing Unimatrix Zero drones, once got the Queen to back down at the fear of Voyager, a relatively tiny science vessel, threatening to launch a torpedo volley at the Queen's own ship. Then there's Icheb's people who used a biological virus to fuck up the Borg with the intention of it spreading to other cubes and, they hoped, the rest of the Collective.You know who DID destroy the Borg with a one-shot infection? VOY's own Janeway who as a time displaced admiral allowed herself to be assimilated after taking a pathogen which spread to the rest of the local Borg and apparently the rest of the Collective since the Borg are basically just remnants at this point. VOY improved them? Not only did they pull off the very "crime" you accuse TNG of pulling, they also did shit like having Voyager, again a relatively small science exploration vessel, HUNTING Borg ships and WINNING just in the hopes of snagging a transwarp coil.
Interesting lore addition that the tribbles once nearly defeated the Klingon Empire. Puts the whole Great Tribble Hunt into new perspective.I'm trying to figure out if that episode had a continuity break since the tribbles weren't freakout out over the presence of the Klingon scientist. Maybe part of his genetic formula killed their treat detection sense as well as made them carnivorous? I mean it's not just the voracious appetite, the Klingons also seem to have an adverse reaction to tribble freakouts. I always found that interesting. Obviously the only thing tribbles really fear is a super predator, as that would keep their numbers down. Perhaps the cry isn't just panic but a defense mechanism, and it happens to be one Klingons are partially vulnerable to. Or not. Not like anyone would love something screaming in their face.
>>93246751Janway doesn´t fuck around.
Feels kind of incestuous that Tom Paris designed Nova Squadron's upgraded Nova fighters.
>>93247530Starfleet got reeeeaaalllllyyy nepotic by the late 24c/early 25c.
>>93247292>I think you miss a few key points namely that what you claim the Borg are vulnerable to in TNG still had similar plotpoints in VOY.NO WRONG.notice how in YOV the queen disconnected any borg who misbehaved (the dream dimension episodes). >To be fair in TNG they THOUGHT they could destroy the entire CollectiveTHEY LITERALLY DID THIS IS CANON. See the lore and borg episode. The borg confirm that their collective got nuked by some federation officers talking to hue about individualism. >have done what they usually do and seen that CubeQuestion for YOV haters / TNG fanboysDid you even watch TNG?????? Or do you even remember TNG?>Cube and its crew as damaged and cut it off from the rest of them.They literally never did that and the collective collapsed. >Voyager, a relatively tiny science vessel, threatening to launch a torpedo volley at the Queen's own ship.What episode is this?>Then there's Icheb's people who used a biological virus to fuck up the BorgYES. Like I have explained before the writers chose option 3 where the borg have massive problems the normies can exploit.HOWEVER"Year long scientific research of the brightest scientists of an entire species!" >>>>>>> "some federation idiots talking to one drone about individualism">You know who DID destroy the Borg with a one-shot infection? VOY's own JanewayYES.>rest of the Collective since the Borg are basically just remnants at this point.What kind of drugs are you on?Lets see:The borg are taken out by weapons and technology from the future (what was it +50 years???) Where all of the federation scientists developed viral weapons to fuck them up. Future Janeway simply grabbed this old solution and time traveled. Where is your problem here? >VOY improved them?YES. Because you must now defend how federation idiot talking to 1 drone about individualism somehow is great writing for literally destroying 100% of the collective.
>>93247588>notice how in YOV the queen disconnected any borg who misbehaved (the dream dimension episodes).She didn't disconnect them, dummy, they were ALREADY disconnected. That was the problem. She was destroying her own cubes and millions of drones just because a 1 or 2 drones per ship were no longer answering to the Collective.>See the lore and borg episodeMaybe you should. Those weren't the entire Borg. Hugh was picked up by a cube in his first appearance, and spread INDIVIDUALITY, not a fractal puzzle, to the rest of that cube. It malfunctioned as a result.>Did you even watch TNG?????? Or do you even remember TNG?More irony.>They literally never did that and the collective collapsed. We're told repeatedly that the Borg do this, and we're told in VOY. The kiddy cube where Icheb was from sent out a distress call. The Collective received it and ignored it, writing them off. Damaged Borg and Borg ships either self-destruct or are abandoned. We're told this repeatedly.>What episode is this?Guess you need to brush up on VOY too. It's called Dark Frontier. VOY season 5.>Where is your problem here? Mostly with your shitty memory. We're never told the neurolytic pathogen Admiral Janeway used was future tech. We are, however, told that the future tech, the armor and weapons, Admiral Janeway brought with her would eventually be adapted. She says as much.>literally destroying 100% of the collectiveI don't even know how you manage not to drown when drinking from a glass of water. They never even deployed the anomalous geometric puzzle. Admiral Nacheyev was pissed about that later on. All they did was send Hugh back with his newfound individuality and that spread to the rest of his cube. That's it. The puzzle was believed to be innocuous enough that it would spread throughout the Collective silently but they would expend more and more resources trying to figure it out. But it was never deployed, or even tested. They don't know it would even work.
>>93247678Ironically that geometric shape likely would have failed. Assuming the general Collective itself wouldn't recognize the dangers and cease trying to solve it, the Queen herself retains greater autonomy within the Collective to function as both part of the whole and an individual. She would have surely recognized the trap and ordered them to stop, but they didn't know she existed yet. Presumably the neurolytic pathogen worked so well because Janeway goaded the Queen into personally assimilating her. The Queen herself, as a kind of avatar of the Collective, would spread it before the threat was detected. If true that makes the Queen both extremely useful and also a weakness, being both a singular point of control but also failure. Similar to how Locutus was used in TNG against the invading Cube.
>>93247699My interpretation is that Admiral Janeway's plan only worked because the Queen is a psycho. The Borg could have (and in the case of the Prodigy cube, did) entered a regeneration cycle to purge the pathogen with no lasting damage, but because she forced them to divert all their energy into chasing Voyager, it allowed it to spread and destroy them.
>>93247760>because the Queen is a psycho.I like to think she also assimilated that from Janeway.
>>93247760I'm not sure about the Cube in Prodigy. Likely they were just coy with it because the writers didn't know the state of the Collective. Borg Cubes can be knocked out by a number of means. It may have already been offline when Admiral Janeway infected the Collective, only for these kids to wake them up.It's not incompatible with the idea that the Queen was able to contact more cubes than the one she sent to Earth and put some into regeneration mode. I'm honestly fine with either, because this way you can have the Borg more or less defeated, as PIC gave us, but also Borg "bombs" waiting to spread the Collective again if the incautious stumble on them. Arguably those kids did just that. Zero only knocked the Borg back to sleep temporarily. When they wake up I imagine they'll be resuming business as usual!
>>93247678>Dark FrontierTo be fair, they were hunting small ships, not even Spheres. To also be fair it's never a good idea to poke the Borg. Even the Q have rules against poking the Borg.
Star Trek as a whole would be better off if the Borg had never been introduced.
>>93249143I disagree. There's nothing inherently wrong with an idea, only in how it's used. Except for the blue gills, those fuckers should have never existed.
Funny how paradoxes are so common in Star Trek but these ridiculous Nu-Who named time monsters have never shown up before. I mean the Borg tried to undo the Federation, Old Spock whoopsied an entire alternate reality into existence, Janeway was shitting in Captain Braxton's coffee through a temporal portal, Daniels was constantly sticking his dick in the time glory hole hoping Archer would take the bait, but strand Chakotay on an island and wipe one tentacle haired chick from existence and suddenly all of reality is on the menu? All of the vaunted nigh-mystical Travelers are like, "Fuck this shit, we're outta here." For fucks sake, an O'Brien from a future that no longer exists once replaced an O'brien form the past. Maybe the Ghost Wife scared them off?But it was still all worth it to see yet another villain menacingly snarl, "JANEWAY!" The Borg Queen approves.
>>93249143To me, the tipping point is Descent.We got a story about how I, Borg never mattered because the Borg just kicked Hugh and the handful of drones he influenced out of the collective so they could become pawns for yet another wacky Lore scheme.It should have been a story about how Hugh converted a large enough chunk of the Borg to individuality that they request asylum with the Federation. They share their technology, and the remaining hostile part of the collective is reduced from the Federation's greatest threat to Cardassian tier "We could genocide you in an instant if we devoted all our resources to it, but we'd still lose a fair amount of lives in the process."
>>93242964I had a character who was a Terran who was a sleeper agent gathering intel and reporting back to Mirror Janeway.
>>93249143>>93249181I think they were better without the queen. The whole cyber zombie unstoppable retard schtick is a good fit for a recurring Star Trek villain but I agree that it hasn't been used very well.
>>93248674What would the Borg even do to the Q?Maybe it just seems silly in a post-Voyager mindset, where the Borg struggle against Species 8472 and get their collective shit pushed in by Janeway and in Picard the entire Collective's been utterly BTFO to the point that all that's left is one defective queen (at least, as far as I can tell from observing people talk about Picard - I'm not going to watch nu-Trek).
>>93249298I didn't really mind the Queen, mostly because I can see the Collective's point in having her around. Sometimes you have to be able to think like an individual to understand them, and that's what she basically was: the Collective made manifest in a single entity. She's really not much different than Locutus, who honestly really sucked at his one job of bridging the gap between humanity and the Borg. Picard understood why assimilation was horrible, Locutus however was, "Dur, why do you resist? We only want to perfect you, guy."I do think they made an error in humanizing her too much. She could have been more robotic, like Locutus, but instead she could actually be quite emotional, like her scream of, "DATA!" when he betrayed her. Problem is there seems to be a logical snarl here. Locutus was TOO robotic, to the point he couldn't actually understand humanity as he was supposed to, while the Queen was too emotional, to the point where she'd could actually be compromised by pissing her off. There's go to be a better middle ground.
>>93249317The problem with Species 8472 was that the Borg couldn't assimilate them, so they had no real information on how to deal with them. They're masters of adapting, but still need to know what they're adapting against. The biggest problem, I'd hazard, is because 8472 was from another universe. There were no periphery species who knew about 8472 the Borg could assimilate to gain second hand knowledge and perhaps an edge.On the other hand godlike beings are well known to, for instance, the Federation. They even now how to hurt and kill some of them, such as the Prophets. The Voyager crew even knows that the Q can still be killed by technology, albeit the Q's own, from the Q Civil War. There are also species, such as John Doe's, who are on the cusp of ascending into a godlike state. In other words there are ways for the Borg to collect data on godlike beings and even a means to assimilate beings about to go godlike. From Prodigy's first season we even know that non-corporeal energy beings can be assimilated, though it helped that Zero is from a telepathic hive mind and was sealed within a technological suit. Zero also managed to break free, putting a temporary whammy on the Borg at the same time.Frankly I think the Continuum prefers it if the Borg remains obsessed with their biological and technological perfection and don't turn their Collective minds towards figuring out how to deal with godlike beings. In other words, while the Borg know they exist the Q don't want to provoke them so much that they decide the Q need to be dealt with. Considering we've seen even artificial constructs like Badgey can ascend to a higher plane it's just not a good direction for the Borg to head in.
>>93249396>>93249317I've seen a theory come up now and then that Q didn't just introduce humanity to the Borg in order to warn mankind, it was actually a longer term gambit throwing humanity at the Borg knowing they'd eventually reach the state they were in by PIC season 3. Fractured, broken, defeated. PIC didn't give us that, that's the trajectory they'd been on since the end of VOY.The same theory goes that this is also why the Q fear humanity. We're like an unstoppable force in the cosmos. I was thinking about this earlier when the Terrans came up. Chakotay specifically called out humanity as bent on conquest, which can be interpreted that it's only humanity that's evil in the Mirror Universe and every other species was different because of them. I suspect that's not the whole story. I think it's because humanity is the key, the catalyst. In the Prime universe humanity were the ones who brought everyone else together to create a United Federation of so many different species. In the Mirror Universe the Terrans created a vast Empire by enslaving so many different species. It some ways it doesn't really matter if the Mirror Vulcans are evil or not, the Terrans were still going to carve a bloody path through the stars.It's just different flavors of HFY.
>>93249217I always had a theory that the reason the godlike beings don't get involved in shit like this is the same reason why we don't always see Starfleet's temporal divisions in the future deal with it. As long as the silly mortals will mostly put things back where they were supposed to go. The truth, though, at least if we consider what the Travelers did is that there's other realities, other universes, other timelines, so why cry over one lost one?I'm still not sure how they fixed things, though. You need the warlike Solum in order to enslave the kids and the Diviner to, uhm, "birth" Gwyn, but they changed Solum in the present so the warlike Solum shouldn't exist. Kind of like how Dal and the others going to Solum in the Infinity fucked things up, but when the Loom erased the Infinity from time it should have erased this mistake. You know what, I'm sticking with the O'Brien Temporal Maxim.
>>93247065I've always found it weird how some races seem to be mirrored and others aren't really. Humans obviously, Ferengi even more dramatically, Bajorans and Denobulans that we see seem pretty twisted. Conversely the Vulcans and Trill are close enough that I'd argue they're the same people just hardened a bit by exposure to the Terrans rather than truly mirrored, and the Klingons and Cardassians seem more or less unchanged as cultures, just forced into different power dynamic. Mirror Worf is obviously more of an asshole than our Worf, but plausibly who he could have been if the Narendra massacre just never happened.
>>93249564It's honestly hard to say. The original TOS Mirror depiction was more cartoonishly evil, but it more or less worked. One could argue that it's not necessarily the species that's flipped but the individuals. Obviously, then, a ship full of heroic, equality minded Starfleet officers would become barbarian psychopaths. The Halkan aren't changed, however, but then one could argue they are merely a vehicle for the story. Specifically they had to be the same to show how Starfleet wouldn't harm a weaker people to get what they want but the Terrans would. Some people point to the Haikens as proof that only humanity changed, and it very well could be the case.While individuals being mirrored fits with, say Worf, who goes from Mr. Honorable to a chest thumping villain, Garak goes from a smooth tongued, intelligent manipulator to a murderous idiot who couldn't find his own asshole if the Intendant used her nails to scratch a map across his chest, and Quark goes from a scheming profit driven narcissist to a quiet, fearful toad who secretly still has the courage to save people under the Intendant's nose (so he thinks). Also Sisko is a pirate. On the other hand O'Brien is equally mechanically brilliant, only lacking in c-c-c-courage due to his slave upbringing.What does this mean? Fuck if I know, man. I think there's an obvious problem that we can't quite judge the Mirror Universe on its own merits after after Kirk interferes. He reshaped too many major events. You mention how Prime Worf might be different, but how would Mirror Sisko or O'Brien be different if the Terran Empire still existed? No Kirk interference, Spock's predictions were wrong or the Empire otherwise found a way to sustain itself.ENT would therefore be the place we should look. A lot of species were different, but hard to say if it was because of Terran brutality. You could also look to STD but fuck that hot mess, or better yet don't. Because of the STDs.
>>93249538listen, this show is only happening because Admiral Janeway died for our sins after successfully not dying for our sins the first time aroundand she doesn't even LIKE time travel
>>93249823Admiral Janeway takes early retirement for a quiet life on the farm. Suddenly a shuttle lands and Chakotay steps out."Kathrine... It's Mars. There was an attack.""Who was it?""Our own synths."A phaser rifle materializes in her hands."Point me at the sons of bitches, and I'll send them all to silicon hell!"And thus The Great Destroyer flies off into the sunset on another glorious genocidal adventure.Jokes aside at least Prodigy showed us that The Doctor survived the AI purge after the Mars attack. Unless the Federation hadn't gotten around to that legislation yet?
>>93249670Pirate Sisko will do anything to protect his boys, just like in the prime universe. I kind of think that the culture of Earth is the only real difference and everything else is butterfly-effect, but it's all debatable. What bothers me the most is that there seem to be equivalent people with the same names born at the same times, except for when there aren't, like how there's no mirror-Jake-Sisko.
>>93249938I think the point stands that you can't judge the mirror universe on its own after the Kirk contamination. He changed the course of their universe, after all. Were the Cardassians and Klingons always warlike jerks in both universes, or were the latter warlike jerks because of overthrowing the Terrans when they sensed their old overlords were weak and a case of acting exactly like the guys they used to hate? Who knows.
>>93249938Shit's not equal. Their timelines aren't the same, so it makes sense the people wouldn't necessarily all be the same. For instance Jennifer was still alive, even while Jake didn't exist. Of course they got her killed later, but this was after further beyond the looking glass contamination. Might as well ask why there was a Mirror Enterprise NX and TOS version, but Smiley had to steal the plans for the Defiant to build one.
Read some interviews where they talked about the possibility for Prodigy season 3. Right now the Hagemans don't even have an office, so they're sitting around hoping Netflix will order more. It'd be nice to know that one of the more decent shows is still around. It's not perfect, but there's an earnestness to it, and overall they do a very good job of getting the FEEL of Star Trek. The technobabble is pretty spot on, and they have a decent knowledge of the older series like remembering that the EMH has a backup module which they used to finally save a copy of holo Janeway, and also turn her into an ECH after The Doctor's original Emergency Command mode.I'll be honest, I'm more than happy with it ending when it did. They're entering such a bleak time thanks to PIC. PRO tried to pad it out a bit by establishing that even before the attack Starfleet was stretched thin. The Construct attack from the first season didn't help, the Federation is short on resources and (somehow) they're needing to use the A500 synths to keep many member worlds running but that'll go away with the synth ban.I appreciate them wanting to have the kids as a beacon of hope, carrying the ideals of Starfleet they'd fallen in love with over two seasons, but it's still a shitty point in time. Better to just imagine they road off and lived happily ever after helping people rather than having to carry on while the Federation turns isolationist, fearful, and corrupted by Romulan agents.
>>93248674>Even the Q have rules against poking the Borg.This never made sense.>>93249317>What would the Borg even do to the Q?Exactly.The Q can literally snap the borg put of existence.
>>93247678>they were ALREADY disconnected.YES and if these where TNG borg like in best of both worlds the collective WOULD NEVER DISCONNECT them and get hacked to death. Like they did on TNG best of both worlds.>She was destroying her own cubes and millions of drones just because a 1 or 2 drones per ship were no longer answering to the Collective.OH I see you decided to copy past SF debris schizophrenic leftoid rants....So you decided to literally argue against reality and mathematics here.Nice one. Lets ignore the queen literally used this strategy to show that she does not give a shit and can wast cubes on trivial things (not that surprising considering the number of cubes in the collective). Here is the question how many cubes are in the collective and how fast are new cubes manufactured? Lets say there are 1 million new cubes with over 900 billion cubes operational.Now wrong boy, calculate for me this how many cubes did she blow up?10? Max.So how many percent is 10/900 000 000 000?Or how many percent is 10/1 000 000?Can you calculate this for me?Despite what your influencer SF debris says he is literally factually wrong since on a strategic perspective it makes ZERO sense to not sacrifice a small insignificant fraction of your forces be is cubes or drones to achieve your goal. That episode was a IMPROVEMENT of the borg from the shit show on TNG where they literally grab one drone and the cube can not disconnect the drone (LOL) and the cube hot hacked. >Maybe you should.I will. In the future.>Those weren't the entire Borg.LOL from what he says is that the collective literally collapsed it is this meme picture.>Someone talks to one drone about individualism>The entire collective has [literally] fallenWhat you see are literally the only chud borg remaining in the universe.1/4
>>93250642>>93247678Also the comedy of >WE are the borg greatest thing ever and the Q fear us (LOLOLOLOLOL)>Oh no one guy talked about individualism to one drone>The collective has collapsed because of these words>We literally can not re establish the collective>HELP US MAGIC ROBOT MAN REEEE>We do everything you want from us only help us recreate the collective!And you say:>and spread INDIVIDUALITYOK how the fuck do I explain this to you? TNG fags are truly beyond any reason at this point. >and spread INDIVIDUALITYDo you fucken realize that this plot line is the worst thing ever? This is more comical then a my little pony episode where the conflict is resolved by talking about friendship (not really however LOL). Do you understand this? Do you understand that the TNG thing that killed the borg is some human talking to one drone about individualism.Do you understand how ridiculous this is?>not a fractal puzzleTNG fags everyone!You know while silly the fractal puzzle was a BETTER solution then the collective literally collapsing from friendship talks or some shit.Do you understand this?And then you cry how bad VOY is because a fucken military grade virus from the future destroyed the borg. So a super weapon from the future, made by every genius in the federation and brought back into the past where the borg are weaker and less technologically advanced is le bad however having a talk and fucking friendship/individualism talk is le epic taking down of the collective????> VOY. The kiddy cube where Icheb was from sent out a distress call. LIKE hold the phone! I was thinking you are talking about TNG?!?!?!?! In TNG they never do that.This is why YOV is the best and TNG borg are a bad joke that is below my little pony episodes.2/4
>>93250648>>93247678VOY borg>Drone behaves strangely cut of from the cube and collectiveTNG Borg>Drone is captured/behaves strangely (le individualism thinking)>REeeee NOOOooo WE can not cut of one drone! IT be like amputating our own arm>[TNG borg get a cube hacked because of this logic]This is CANON!!!! And it is cringe!Once more VOY improved the borg.AlsoVOY Borg>Cube behaves strangely?>Cut off/blow up>Collective savedTNG Borg>Cube behaves strangely? (le individualism thinking)>REeeee NOOOooo WE can not cut of one drone! IT be like amputating our own arm>[TNG borg literally get the collective annihilated because of this]This is CANON!!!! And it is cringe!Once more VOY improved the borg.>We're never told the neurolytic pathogen Admiral Janeway used was future techReally?I watch that episode to check if I have time.Because I'm sure she did say that. Because I'm 100% sure she did bring magic future tech plating and magic future weapons with her to make Voyager super strong and one hit cubes while they can not even scratch Voyager.If it is not directly spoken then it is implied. >Admiral Janeway brought with her would eventually be adapted. She says as much.Yes and before this she fucked the borg hard. What is your point here?>They never even deployed the anomalous geometric puzzlOK and the my rejected my littple pony plot of federation humans talking to one drone and this individualism idea destroying the entire collective is absolute trash.>newfound individualityExactly my point. Retarded my little pony episode.>newfound individuality and that spread to the rest of his cubeAnd you fail to understand how this is borderline retarded? How this makes the TNG borg a joke? That human word bla bla fucke over 100% of the collective? No?While future tech and advanced tech specifically manufactured to kill the collective in YOV is bad???? 3/4
>>93250654>>93247678Addendum:You should play some war games they teach you lots about strategy and how sacrificing one unity in a line of millions is a better solution then letting your entire army get destroyed.Also like >>93248674 pointed out you have no concept of damage in your cartoon world. If a damaged cube or lesser also damaged ship gets attacked by a fully functioning ship it can get fucked.You also seam to not understand technology or technological levels or ambushes or 1 in 100 chances. This is your point>If a guy armed with a knife kills a modern soldier then the US military is a joke.Ambushes happen however the overall picture is important.Making the borg so massive that they can decide to blow up 50 of their own cubes for fun since they have billions of billions of them and this is not even making a dent in their strength makes them more impressive.This is why YOV improved the borg. Making the borg this unstoppable unimaginably large colossus that in the end does not give a shit about you and you insignificant federation and is interested in far bigger projects like their multiversal war makes them unimaginably impressive. Yea voyager can steal from them and run away however in the end the borg are so big that they do not give a shit this is what makes them very impressive, a TV villain faction however impressive.Voyager stealing insignificant modules from borg cubes is like savages stealing a rifle or radio from US soldiers today.In the end it is a insignificant thing for the US army to lose and it does not really give a shit.4/5
>>93250672>>93247678Or:>If a modern US ship time traveled to WW2 and did fight japan in WW2 and destroyed them this means that WW2 japan is shit.There are other problems with the borg even VOY borg however you have named none.The biggest problem for the borg is that they are are TV villain faction to be defeated in a 40 minute TV episode. They are not a 40K faction that is viable to be played.Despite this nothing that happened in YOV was worse then literally rejected my little pony scripts ending the borg with friendship/individualism talks to 1 drone.5/5
>>93249334The borg are self contradictory because they are written by multiple writers. >I do think they made an error in humanizing her too much. She could have been more robotic, like Locutus,Personally I'm agnostic on the idea of a borg queen.I'm always a fan of a hive mind. However hive mind =/= cyber communist utopia. Some parts of the computer are more important then others and the keyboard is replaceable.I imagine every cube having multiple crucial nodes who exist in a RAID 6 or something arrangement to generate the personality of the cube who then links into other cubes to create the collective.I think if the borg where more written like cyberman from Dr Who they be far more cool.>Leader #245 was terminated in battle>I'm assuming command>>Agree Agree Agree>>Agree Agree Agree>>Agree Agree Agree>I'm the new leader.Like they do not get angst from getting disconnected and will try to reestablish a new collective every opportunity. However there are ranks/CASTS in the collective and more important parts. The cannon fodder "go repair the outside of the ship no one gives a shit if you get shot" drone would be worthless and lack any collective reestablishing intellect.You can see this is influenced a lot by Tyranids.
Watch it guys, The Loom are in the thread.
>>93252134Finally, some delicious fucking food.
Bit of an odd question, but were stats for Terran Empire PCs ever given for Star Trek Adventures?
Lukewarm take: The best Mirror followup was the TNG novel by Diane Duane. The Enterprise-D being the vanguard of a multiversal fleet that's conquered all it can (easily) reach and shows a clear point of divergence as far back as the 1500s of a crueler humanity is more interesting than the DS9 and onward one. Except for Intendant Kira being slightly hotter than PsiCorps Commissar Deanna Troi.
>>93250729You can say that about just about anything. I actually find the contradictions with the Borg being from their gradual development, for instance going from no interest in humanity, only our technology, to wanting to add biological distinctiveness to their own. Or having difficulty assimilating the Federation when they've only sent a single cube each time instead of sending dozens. Or this guy in the thread writing excessive walls of text to defend his opinion, but it was still VOY that revealed the Borg have a damn transwarp corridor that exits into the Sol System they could have used at any time without the slow march of a single cube through Federation space with the occasional stop at Wolf 359 to kill Sisko's wife.
>>93253418I'm sure there is something in some splat, but honestly I think there wouldn't be enough of a difference between them and their regular universe counterparts to warrant it except maybe a talent at best.
>>93250447The Q aren't gods, they're sufficiently advanced lifeforms. Their powers still work on energy, and energy can be deflected or contained. We've seen with their own technology they can't just snap their fingers and make all those Civil War appearing rifles vanish. They also are not omniscient, nor do do they know everything that's going to happen. Picard's actions are able to surprise Q (and apparently the entire Continuum), after all. I wouldn't put it past the Borg to start creating their own subspace pockets of reality in order to conduct Q research away from the prying eyes of the Continuum and the reach of a fingersnap.But you don't have to take my word for it. Q was pretty adamant to Junior. Don't provoke the Collective.
>>93250642>>93250648>>93250654>>93250672Wow, such walls of text and so much wrong. I'm not sure how you still aren't getting it, maybe I can't dumb this down anymore.Unimatrix Zero was a "mutation" that wasn't intended. In other words, VOY gave the Borg an inherent flaw in their perfection that went completely unnoticed by the Queen. Only one in a million drones had this mutation. When the Queen found out she started REEing her own cubes to death. VOY, in a crowning moment of inconsistency, convinced Janeway of all people that so many drone deaths were unacceptable instead of seeing it as a merciful release of the victims and the Queen doing Starfleet's work for them. Especially compared to Admiral Janeway's planned solution with her present day version which was to use a pathogen to infect the Queen and spread it to the other drones, killing them all anyway. Yeah, that's some real nice "improvements" there, VOY.At any rate the Queen didn't disconnect anyone, the Unimatrix guys were already disconnected and that was the problem. She WANTED them connected. Her solution to re-assimilate their minds in Unimatrix Zero was working but Janeway destroyed the place as a meeting ground for the freed Borg.Icheb's Borg were "disconnected" by his genetic alteration fucking up the Cube. Only the immature drones survived. The Borg didn't disconnect them, they abandoned them. This should have been obvious since otherwise the Cube wouldn't have needed to send out a distress call.VOY is actually consistent with TNG. Seven and three drones were disconnected from the rest of the Collective by their ship crashing, like Hugh's. Also like Hugh they all started to reassert their individuality. Seven panicked and tried to force the others into a micro-Collective. With four out of four people all becoming individuals without any help, this means freeing all Borg is actually ridiculously easy in VOY. ENT, of all things, fixed this mess.
>>93250672>you have no concept of damage in your cartoon world. If a damaged cube or lesser also damaged ship gets attacked by a fully functioning ship it can get fucked.You badly misunderstood that post. I should know, I wrote it as an addendum to my earlier statement. Nobody said they couldn't fuck up a ship, but doing so, especially when a small exploration vessel with limited resources and no backup, it's insane to go hunting and picking a fight with the Borg. Typically you do NOT want to gain the Collective's attention. After all, we later learn that the Queen had turned her sight on Voyager, discovered Seven, and secretly accessed her Regeneration alcove to manipulate the ex-drone.Also that tiny vessel was causing Voyager a severe headache. Harry managed to beam over a torpedo which the drones couldn't disarm in time. Hard to imagine that's a technique the Borg wouldn't adapt to, unless you think VOY has "improved" the Borg by removing their ability to adapt. It was pretty much a moot point. The torpedo wrecked most of the valuable technology, and what wasn't wrecked self-destructed as per usual Borg protocols. That's when Janeway decided to go bigger (because doesn't she always?) by planning an Ocean's 11 on a Cube to steal a transwarp coil. It turned out this was perfect for the Queen who let them escape with their prize as she really wanted Seven. This is the same two-parter where Janeway improbably cowed the Queen by threatening to launch a torpedo salvo at her majesty's ship. Especially since even if they target the Queen's chamber it's deep within the ship, and even an entire fleet in First Contact only managed to damage the outer hull until Picard found the weak point to attack for massive damage (assuming that wasn't part of the Queen's own time plot).
>>93253588we do not deserve Nana Visitor
>>93250672>does not give a shit about you and you insignificant federationWait, the Queen created Locutus specifically to deal with humanity, tried to alter time to deal with humanity, and captured Seven to deal with humanity through a subtle nano-virus because direct assaults weren't working. Humanity is pretty much her big obsession, apparently because we have below average stats but continue to stymie Borg Perfection™.>>93254088Bashir's actor apparently didn't.
>>93250729Are the Cybermen even a hivemind? Shit, they don't even seem to do much of anything with their organic components besides suppress them. They'd basically be better off as just robots, but then that eliminates the scary scary from them wanting to turn people into more Cybermen.
>>93254058The borg instantaneously adapting has never been a thing. They take several shots to adapt to phasers, would probably adapt to physical projectiles (in fact the holographic bullets scene is an extremely improbable rule-of-cool moment rather than anything which would rationally work against an energy shield designed to stop particle beam weapons) and have been shown to take extended periods to adapt to or understand certain concepts - omega particles, unimatrix zero, and so on. This is in line with the original Starfleet understanding of the Borg gleaned from unprecedented access to their networks via Locutus, Data and the Enterprise-D computers, which was that it would be possible with the right kind of network access to introduce a destructive algorithm into the collective. That's in line both with Admiral Janeway's assimilation in Endgame (the neurolytic pathogen affects a key system to disrupt command and control of high-level functions), the original destruction of local wifi hotspots in Best of Both Worlds etc The torpedo scene in Dark Frontier is very much a normal rate of adaptation: the borg of this vessel note the type of explosive and attempt to deactivate it rather than contain it (for all the power of the borg it's unlikely they can create a shield internal to the ship capable of containing a photon torpedo explosion in any case). But defusing a weapon takes time as, unlike simply assimilating a starship's controls (as we've seen on multiple occasions, with the assimilation rapidly spreading to apparently predetermined limits), interrupting an active antimatter weapon's operations may cause it to detonate prematurely. It's not merely a question of which wire to cut, and familiarity with the design only speeds the process but does not make the danger trivial - the anti-tamper failsafes in such a torpedo must be overcome correctly without even a microsecond of lag or it will detonate.
As far as I can recall the only drones the Borg Collective deliberately disconnected was by disconnecting them from their constituent atoms via self-destruct.I'm surprised Hugh's individuality spread to the rest of his cube. This probably wouldn't have happened in Voyager, as that anon above says, but I'm not sure it's really an improvement. Voyager gave us the vinculum, which is a component of a cube that suppresses individual thoughts. I'd think it would make more sense to have the suppression done by the implants within each drone's skull, making it harder to fight against and drones rarely succeed in becoming a person again, but now it's external so any Borg outside the range of a vinculum just become people again. It's basically inevitable.I preferred it when we could assume Picard was an easier (relatively) rescue because he was special and Locutus was meant to retain a degree of individuality. Even Hugh had to slowly be weaned onto the idea, and surprised Picard when he said "I" instead of "we". He never remembered who he used to be. Maybe like Seven he was too young when he was assimilated. Adults at least seem to recover better. I still hate it.
>>93253588Agreed. Though I always had a soft spot for that Shattered Universe game.
>>93254280Shattered Universe felt like it was a followup to the TOS DC series, which was pretty alright on its own.
>>93254196It's not a matter of instantaneous adaptation. Where did you get that idea? The problem is Borg ships are armored as fuck so those few shots or torpedo salvos aren't going to do much damage before they adapt. Adaptation is can also be broader than just being exposed to a particular phaser frequency. You can come up with a dozen new frequencies but still only get in 1-2 shots, as Worf would point out, before they figure out how you've modified your phasers and adapt to all the new frequencies. Even the Defiant, designed to combat the Borg, was only pecking away at the surface.With Dark Frontier the problem is that the Borg ship has almost certainly transmitted it's final moments so next time it's tried the Borg will be ready. ECM to slow the detonator, erecting their powerful forcefields around the torpedo to contain the explosion, just beaming it back onto your ship, to name a few possibilities. For instance when Voyager rescued Icheb from his awful parent's gambit their weapons were useless and didn't even scratch the Borg tractor beam emitter. They also couldn't beam a torpedo directly onto the cube, however they did get the bright idea to beam it onto the ship Icheb was on which was pulled into the Cube first allowing them to detonate it inside. This managed to stun the Cube enough for Voyager to escape.Then again the problem with Dark Frontier is ultimately that the Queen was watching and playing Voyager all along, apparently, so not sure we can trust any of what we saw.
>>93254345>not sure we can trust any of what we saw.That might be the case. Normal Borg procedure to stop a torpedo would be to use their nanoprobe tubules to inject into a computer terminal and override it, but the Borg sent to disarm the torpedo suddenly stopped and just started shaking his head. Did the Queen already send a countermand order? It's possible.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4bkw69E_C4gProbably not, though. This attack seems to be what got the Queen's attention because Seven was contacted, secretly, by the Queen and the next day switched sides. It still wild an Intrepid-Class is a tactical match for a Borg scoutship.
>>93246745You're overthinking a boner. Kate Mulgrew was hot in Voyager. Goth chicks are hot. Idealized physical representation of Kate Mulgrew + goth chick = photon torpedo armed.
>>93254656>You're overthinking a bonerImpossible. One would think you of all anons would know that the various flavors of boners are important.
>>93250729I don't think we'll ever get an answer to why, but for what it's worth the Queen is special. I mean her species. It's not Species 1. She's not even in the first hundred species. She's Species 125. Given the importance of the Queen, and her role within the Collective, there's a theory that something about her species is either the only one suited or the most suited for being turned into a Queen. We've seen different actresses, but never a different species (until Agnes, that is, but does STP even count?). There's some precedent. Certain species are better well-suited to being tactical drones. Vulcans have extremely useful, orderly minds. Arturis' people have beyond exceptional linguistic skills that also made them highly prized by the Collective.Given VOY gave us the same actress from First Contact presumably as that exact same Queen, I guess they use cloning or otherwise have some means of duplicating the Queen. They'd have to, wouldn't they? The Queen was traveling into the past, so someone else would have to remain behind to be the Queen in active control over the Collective.Then there's her far more extensive than usual augmentation. She She's just a head and shoulders, but even has a Borg robotic chasis with gorram tits and everything. Her skull and spinal column are fully mechanical. She's basically the damn Terminator with flesh over a robotic center.>>93251253Not yet. Wait for the seventh day premature autosage.I'd add that I don't necessarily hate the idea of them. I do, however, loathe the name. I also don't think they should have been so unstoppable. Instead it should have been the endless number of them that was the threat.
