>PiratesCan we make piracy great again? I don't understand why people don't like the idea of freedom, wandering in search of adventures, glory and treasure, this is de facto the usual formula for standard adventurer campaign, but on the sea.
It's not that pirate games do poorly, it's that boat game do poorly.When players say they want a boat game, that means they want to explore a variety of interesting locales, all while having the freedom to leave and go somewhere else whenever they please.That doesn't mean they want an intricate homebrew naval combat system, logistics managements, etc. Travel is still travel, throw a cool sea monster in there or a perilous weather event that requires a lot of crew skill to navigate. But focus on the cool part of a sea campaign: getting back on dry land.
>>93227186>cool part of a sea campaign: getting back on dry land.Stupid idea.
>>93227202A sea battle is a good thing to make a travel between islands interesting, but make a sea campaign actually focussed on the sea and it won't go well
>>93227221Only if the sea is empty and nothing happens. And this is not something that happens even in a real sea, so the only question is whether the DM has enough imagination.
>>93227281>My advice for running a good sea-focussed pirate game?>Just uh...be a good DM and make uh, things happenBrilliant, thank you for your input, nogames
>>93227165Murder Hobo except you're not a hobo, you just have a mobile home.
>>93227392Your ego is the reason why no one wants to play with you. Kraken, Moby-Dick, sirens, and another 1000 and 1 SEA(!) monsters are more than enough for an interesting sea adventures, retard.
>>93227165>Can we make piracy great again?Are you Somalia?
>>93227446>Starts projecting out of nowhere>"Dude I bet you haven't heard of using SEA MONSTERS, GOTCHA!"Just stop man, provide some actual advice instead of meaningless shitflinging
>>93227446The vast majority of Moby Dick is the guys doing chores and talking to each other while searching for the whales. The sea is fucking big and empty, that's what it is.
>>93227165Can we have a system for ship combat that doesn't fucking such ass?Oh and more importantly isn't more fucking complicated that a player's character sheet.I have read so, so many ship combat rules (mostly looking for sea combat, but I've read some a lot space fairing stuff in my search).And every fucking "Good" one that I've been suggested:>Separate Defense Class for the stern, >Separate Defense Class for the bow >Separate Defense Class for the rigging >Separate Defense Class for the weapons>AC, and HP, and Separate Damage thresholds>etc etcAnd ofcourse every bad one either can't handle ranged combat, or can't handle ship boarding.Or alternately "the captain" does all the work and the rest of the players sit with thumbs up their asses until ship boarding happens.Yeah. I'm looking at you 5e (Salt, and Spelljammer). And you Pathfinder 1e, 2e. Also 3.0 & 3.5, Several 2e modules seems to have never agreed on a unified system, og spelljammer and the one system in becmi that I could find. My conclusion is D&D has NEVER had good ship rules.A few different Sci-fi ones. Some of the problems with space combat is that there ARE some really good rule sets, but they go into details about systems or mechanics which don't apply to fantasy or watercraft.And i've lost count of however many indie or solo-rpg ship rules I've read. lets see... last one I read was some addon to the Barbarin Prince solo rpg- it (obviously for a hexcrawler) wasn't very good or detailed but like I said. I've read a lot.>/tg/What is your preferred Ship combat that you actually ENJOY?And I would love fine details more than an overview.
>>93227165Hell yeah! Let me get my favorite Pirate theme combat map out here!
>>93227515>Cont...All that ranting aside. I've yet to actually read 7th Sea or 13th Age (Which I hear has a decent one)Could anyone give me the low downs on those before I waste another week reading?
>>932275807th Sea is absolute fucking garbage
>>93227446>Random encounters mean the campaign is good
>>93227626not necessarily, but absence of random encounters means it's a railroad
>>93227593Good to hear.The system as a whole? Or is the ship-rules salvageable to retrofit into other systems?
>>93227515>What is your preferred Ship combat that you actually ENJOY?The Honor+Intrigue one isn't bad. A ship is built very similarly to a character, which helps players intuit how they work, and the system is designed to 'zoom in' to personal battles when the big picture gun duels and chases get boring or the ships come to grips. It's not super gritty, but there's room to do stuff.
>>93227656People tend to like the setting and dislike the rules.
>>932275807th Sea rules for ship combat are very playable. They are not realistic if you care about that sort of thing, but they work well enough.
>>93227165I suspect there's multiple problems to account for. First and foremost that comes to mind is the simple fact that most high seas games seem to be poorly-launched. IMO in any game you need a good, fairly pressing inciting incident to get the party to gel from the word go. Much like 'you meet at a tavern' is weak, 'you're pirates on a ship' is kinda directionless. Give them good cause. For example, they're slave rowers who broke free during a mutiny. Or they didn't board the ship voluntarily, but are among a portion of the crew who were press-ganged. At least in the short term, these PCs probably want to cooperate. The ship itself needs to be a character, like a recurring tavern. Know the NPC crew and establish a sense of what's normal and what isn't on the ship. Your players should know who to go to when things are weird or boring the same as they would in real life with friends or coworkers.Don't get overcomplicated with the sailing and ship combat rules. Have ways players can individually influence the performance of the ship, but opt for a system where you can 'zoom in' and back out as needed. Most players are interested in personal stakes and challenges.Sailing itself is not dissimilar from overland traveling in any game. With rare exceptions for survivalist focused play (not something everyone likes), it's something to string between points of interest. Don't go too crazy on the random sea encounters, and don't feel like you have to stretch things out for the journey. In the same breath, remember that mundane problems can be spun into more interesting consequences. Do you punish your navigator for being a drunkard? If you do, who's taking up his slack? Ships - even pirate ships - require hierarchy. Life is cheap at sea, as well. Choose a system that can handle the latter and make sure your group (and you) are up for the former. The semi-democracy of golden age pirate ships is actually good soil for a game with hierarchy.
>>932276967th Sea Rules have some gems in their conception, its just the balance was all out of whack.Also the setting is dogshit what are you talking about. Not nearly enough pirate focus in what should be a very pirate heavy setting, everything is horribly generic except for the neat magic, and it suffers metaplot cancer in the worst way.
>>93227165I can't speak for other people, but I'm just not into high-seas adventure.
>>93229029More of an UNDER sea guy?
>>93227186>>93227221I bet you think travel mechanics are also inherently uncool, which would make you a fool.
>>93227165I'm DMing a pirate sandbox game currently using the 1001 islands tables along with "Tiny Pirates" as a system. It's been pretty simple. The boat mechanics are a little bit convoluted, but in the end it normally ends in boarding a ship and then is just standard combat.
>>93230259I love travel and logistics, but the majority of players do not, which is why the majority of naval or sea-based campaigns fail.
any good pirate themed board games? i tried tiny epic pirates but there were too many rules
>>93229057You know, I never fucked with undersea stuff before.Could be cool; thanks for the idea Anon.
>>93227165Too many people think "at sea" means "at ocean". A pirate game in a big carribean type setting with a ton of islands and stuff is fine. It's when you have to unironically say "and you haven't seen anything this week either because the ocean is so vast" that you have a problem. You should always be within sight of some kind of land and there should always be a reason to go there.
>>93230634That's what timeskips are for.
>>93229057Imo, undersea stuff is unironcally one of the appealing things that a sea campaign has to offer. However, you pretty much need some kind of water-breathing in every system to make this go further than diving in the shallows.
>>93227165Campaigns die when players have to show initiative and make decisions about where to go and what to do.
The One Piece!
>>93227165put more shit in the water, running a campaign rn that has>shipwrecks everywhere>a forest of living anemone humanoids>deadly corals>kelp forest empire>underwater chasm civilizationsif you treat water as well as you do land, there shouldn't be an issuefor ships, since I'm playing fate, I just give them unique powers and skills and let the players handle the rest. travel is a single dice roll plus adds on the overworld with enemy tokens roving around the map, 4x style
>>93227165>I don't understand why people don't like the idea of freedom, wandering in search of adventures, glory and treasure, this is de facto the usual formula for standard adventurer campaign, but on the sea.I think that's the reason why pirates aren't great. A pirate isn't born, it's nominated as such by the major order the crew rebels against. In real life it was the crowns and the old world order. In one piece the world goverment and celestial dragons, the marines force is an answer against the pirates threat.So if you want to make a pirate campaing, first you need to creat the big enemy the pirates will steal, loot and plunder as their main income. Adventures, glory and treasure can come after. Or at least, that's my opinion.
>>93231424A pirate is essentially just a criminal who specializes in naval work. To borrow from an old post explaining what allowed the Golden Age of Piracy to happen:===>Factors contributing to piracy during the Golden Age included the rise in quantities of valuable cargoes being shipped to Europe over vast ocean areas, reduced European navies in certain regions, the training and experience that many sailors had gained in European navies (particularly the British Royal Navy), and corrupt and ineffective government in European overseas colonies. Colonial powers at the time constantly fought with pirates and engaged in several notable battles and other related events.In short:>Lots of high-value goods crossing wide stretches of water, especially between colonies and the homeland>Weak(er) national navies>Lots of trained sailors>Weak/inefficient/corrupt regional governmentsThis isn't that far from the Somalian pirates of the turn of the millenium. That's chalked up to weak government, political instability and rising costs forcing the common man to turn to crime and join gangs to make their livelihoods, and when a sailor turns to crime, they become a pirate.===So the likely case is you're trying to get paid in the face of a government that doesn't function, or you're dealing with an outside government trying to exert control.
>>93231776>This isn't that far from the Somalian pirates of the turn of the millenium.They were also fairly littoral like modern Somalian pirates, too.
>>93230571The majority of players (and GMs) have only know dnd style Outdoor Survival trash. If that was even slightly less of a stinking turd, even just level with the brainless fare of 5e combat, you’d have people walking the plank for a chance at playing it.
>>93230634>not wanting to pick between risking fatigue to scrub the decks/repair the ship, the captain’s wrath to skive off and recuperate/gamble/make merry, or going low on supplies to chase down a galleon full of eightAvast, landlubber!>MASSDeven captcha thinks we should string ye up by the fore
>>93230634>you must describe each day of the trip>skipping the boring stuff when nothing happens is not an optionIt's autism, anon. Not everyone likes this style of play, regardless of the setting or system.
>>93232632This. A large ship is a lot like a town. It's as fun and interesting as the DM and players have functioning brains. You have a whole crew which can be full of interesting characters with conflicting goals. You have a large environment where a lot of unique things can happen that wont happen in any other campaign evironment. >Murder mysteries>Mutiny, stoking or quelling dissent>Gambling>Sabotage>Heists>Being enslaved, prisoner escapeEtc, you get the idea. Plenty of fun things for a group to get up to on a ship.
>>93227929The Pirates of Drinax Campaign for Traveller solves the issue of direction pretty well imo. The king of a fallen kingdom finds an old ship, and gives the players a marque to engage in piracy and diplomacy in an attempt to return planets to the kingdom. Gives good direction (acquire wealth and ships to rebuild the kingdom) at the same time as it is a sandbox campaign where the players can do just about anything they can think of to achieve that goal.Taking the same idea and setting it in a Carribean like island group seems like a no brainer to get a good pirate campagin going.
>>93231424though it's very telling that even in One Piece 95% of the plot takes place on land
Read some of the useful fiction, like Treasure Island and The Sea Hawk.
>>93227515For a good simplified naval combat engine (i.e. if you care about wind it's not for you) then I like the Open d6 vehicle rules. Basically similar to character combat, you have different players take responsibility for different rolls (helm does piloting, etc) and just have a pulpy time. Boarding would be mass combat which is in d6 Fantasy (I think).
>>93233863Yeah but people are dumb and want systems to fall back on, and so far no system has made sailing engaging. Someone should really fill that niche.
>>93231424What would be good "fantastical factions" to add to a pirate game along with governor's men, rival crews, caribes and maroon slaves? The usual undeads feel a bit boring now.
>>93235387>fantastical factions>lists completely unfantastical factionsDo you even atlantean bro>captcha SOSOP
>>93235387Merfolk seem like an obvious option, as do cultists following various Sea Gods, you could do covens of vodoo witches living on small islands, and monster hunters chasing after specific mythical sea-creatures
>>93235404 I asked for fantastical factions to add to "vanilla pirates factions". Like in Pirate of the Caribbeans, you have the sadly non fantastical Brits and the Undeads.
>>93235670Just add a race/faction from fantasy and problem solved.
>>93235387I just straight up ripped off Davy Jones from PotC once, but I discarded most of the mythology and just made him a damned pirate with dispensation from the Devil to buy souls on loan for him. Same basic 'do you fear death' shtick, with Jones tasked to make sure his new crew degenerate spiritually so that the Devil can claim them for sure.
>>93235387Don't forget landlubber factions. Borrow from pulp if you want, like lost civilizations who have regressed into cannibalistic ape-men. So much for Lemuria.
>>93231776Pirates were essentially the shadowrunners of their time. Not just because of the constant limb replacement, either.They're at the technological forefront, bring military firepower to crime, work for factions as deniable agents as well as legitimised ones (privateers), have to balance their work for said factions with courting public support (because they can't work without help from the Street). They're probably the only socially-mobile avenue for a variety of marginalised groups, and even the life of a pirate seaman is probably better than life on land as a gay black beggar.
>>93234544That's just privateering - mercenary piracy in the name of a nation or sovereign. Of course there will be guidance in a campaign as long as a party is, in the grand scheme of things, taking orders from someone else.
>>93227221This anon is entirely correct and everyone who feels attacked by its statement hasn't played a seafaring campaign. It's on islands and shores where points of interests and NPCs are. It's there where they trade goods and find new leads and adventure. It's near land where PCs will engage in naval combat because two ships meeting in the middle of the ocean isn't very likely. Travel encounters are neat and cool but you can only pull out a sea monster/other pirateship/flying dutchman knock-off so often until it gets kinda stale
>>93240372>Travel encounters are neat and cool but you can only pull out a monster/other party of adventurers/headless horseman knock-off so often until it gets kinda stale.See, this is no different from the usual Dnd adventures. So only autist can have a problem with the background change and a few extra mechanics for a ship because autists just hate change. Any changes.
>>93243298Nah it’s just that they’ve never seen it done right. Probably because it hasn’t been, within the ttrpg sphere.
>>93229057The problem with doing shit underwater is that it necessitates 3d movement which is a chore to track at best and largely unsupported by the systems most people will be playing.
>>93227165what a stupid outfit she's wearing
>>93227165Find a way to increase the number of female pirates. One Piece and Majora’s Mask know what’s up.
>>93245505This is only a problem if your system tracks positioning >>93246334It’s Conan, impractical clothing is a necessity
>>93248027One Piece is a really good example of a game with a very shit DM
>>93227165I think a part of it is people have very little knowledge of maritime industries. By comparison all you need to be a cowboy is horse + gun. I think another is that there haven't been many breakout piracy fictional settings. One-Piece maybe, and it does take its lore seriously, but like all shonen, it's a vehicle for cool fights first and a coherent world second.
>>93248027I think combining the barbary sea pirates with amazons is pretty fun. Or just have the Amazons take the place of the native islanders. Surprisingly native americans very rarely factor into pirate stories. I forget the story Man Friday was from, but he's about the only major figure from that era I can think of (and even then the native islander culture was stereotyped as 'demon worshipping cannibals'). Only other one is maybe when cursed aztec gold factors into things.
>>93236332Speaking of black pirates, many pirates raided slave ships to function as crewmembers. Can't really fence a slave in the same way you can say a crate of tea or sugar. Not to mention working a slave ship FUCKING SUCKED, so even if you could there are easier and more pleasant ways to make money, like stealing crates of tea and sugar. And former slaves were highly motivated- not like if the British caught them they'd be sent back to Africa to go to Africa jail. They'd be hung, or sold back into slavery. Sure a lot might want to go back to Africa, but that was pretty much impossible unless your pirate ship thinks there might be good pirating over there. And piracy earned you a paycheck you WEREN'T going to get in any other capacity.
>>93227165Exactly as anon >>93227186 puts it. Most players are landlubbers who won't appreciate the intricacies of a true nautical campaign. No point fighting it, best embrace it. Run it like the first Pirates of the Caribbean film. Most the action takes place on or next to land, with sea travel being overlooked. Only one major set piece takes place on the high seas.
>>93249555Ah, to be a child again.
>>93245505it doesn't necessitate it, you just want it
>>93229057Hmm. Submarine pirates?Can that be a thing?Like "20000 Leagues under the Sea" or "Das Boot" but with piracy.
>>93227186>uuh just fast travelBack to /v/ you go, tourist.
>>93250800>What is a point crawl>What are most Star Wars games>Arguably, what is Traveller>What are most CoC gamesNot everything happens on a hexmap, crusty.
>>93249555What precisely do you mean by that?
>>93250675>"Das Boot"Ideological background aside, that movie is 90% idle boredom, 1% exhilarating action, 9% creeping dread, is that how you want to ruin your game?
>>93251655Not that previous guy...>Not everything happens on a hexmap, crusty.... But explain please.
>>93227446Those all suck dick and I love a good pirate game, you're a goddamn fool
Honestly, I´d take a look at real life history of piracy from the bronze age onwards. One Piece, potc, all the air pirates videogames and treasure planet.Worldbuilding I started myself with and caribbean islands expy with natives and roughly three old world countries colonizing that place. Allthough air piracy with skyships and a literally endless sea sounds kinda more fun.
>>93253076Skies of Arcadia is the gold standard for sky pirates.
>>93229057I have a one shot I've run a few times where the adventuring party is trying to hunt down a magical variety of Goldfish. It is a goldfish, because an alchemist took a species of fish that grows scales made out of lead and decided to breed a variety that has scales made out of gold. Story is about going to hunt around in various underwater environments, ruined Atlantean temples, giant kelp forests, undersea abyss with Sahuagin, it's a fun time.
>>93231776That's not quite right, rather it was the breakdown of any anti-piracy consensus amongst the European powers in the Carribean, rather than the size of their navies there. Pirates can't exist without a market to sell their goods on, but the smaller Carribean powers, the Dutch, English, and French, were all variously willing to tolerate, endorse, or even directly employ pirates as part of their imperial conflicts with the Spanish. It also helped that the Spanish navy was, itself, nearly universally dogshit because they kept getting their fleets sunk by the British and occasionally Dutch over and over again, losing all their institutional knowledge in the process.
>>93249655Uh, treasure Island has natives, as does Jonathan Crusoe. Also, one of the most famous actual historical Pirate Stories is the Journal of John Smith of Pocahantas fame, who was captured by French pirates in the Azores and managed to later escape captivity.
>>93253265>That's not quite right, rather it was the breakdown of any anti-piracy consensus amongst the European powers in the Carribean, rather than the size of their navies there.That could probably be chalked up under "weak regional governments." If they couldn't agree on how to handle the pirates in their territories, they will naturally have a weaker overall response to them.
>>93253311It wasn't so much that they were weak, it was that they all hated the Spanish and most of them tolerated or even liked pirates because pirates were mostly a problem for the Spanish.
>>93253327Either way, that post was meant to outline the general skeleton points for what could reasonably spur a meaningful influx of pirate activity - chiefly, plenty of booty to go around, a surplus of trained sailors, and not enough naval/governmental power to truly bring the hammer down. The same conditions that allow for bandits on land would allow for pirates at sea. If you want to run a pirate campaign, it's an important place to start.
>>93227538
>>93227186>all while having the freedom to leave and go somewhere else whenever they please.That's a treatable delusion. Sea travel is fucking expensive, that's like letting a starship captain just up and ignore the most recent plot without jacking enough loot to pay the bills.
>>93227165Piracy and necromancy is an underutilized combination in my opinion. Imagine something like the cursed pirates from the first Pirates movie, but without a mind or soul to suffer, or undead sharks that can attack ships from below.
>>93253569Have you tried Pirateborg?It's pretty great. Classic Murdery OSR in a pirates of the Carribean style cursed ocean.
>>93253594>Borgshit>OSRChoose one.
>>93252470His position is that skipping past irrelevant content is /v/ behaviour.In fact, while the OSR movement are deeply autistic about never cutting away and having strict timekeeping at a set pace (even time moving between sessions at a set rate), there are many other pacing options. Many of those are nearly as old as D&D and have considerable tabletop appeal.
>>93252421>constant deus ex machinas as the DM is deathly afraid of killing his players>every session is 90% the DMs NPCs talking to each other, players barely get a word in edgewise>players have obviously checked out, barely react to anything and hardly rp together anymore>constant retcons as the dm keeps adding homebrew to the ruleset
>>93243298If you make the sea not distinct from the land then what’s the point?
