What exactly is the difference thematically between a Paladin and a Cleric-Fighter dual class?
what system
>>93362732dnd 5e unless specified otherwise
>>93362711>DUAL classassuming you're talking about adnd since that's the only game where all of the above exists, and that he started as a cleric given you listed it firstit's a cleric that decided to forego any further learning as a cleric and fully committed to being a fighter while keeping what abilities he learnt as a cleric, and he can be anywhere on the alignment/philosophy/morality spectrum instead of the narrow LG chivalrous paladin pigeonhole
>>93362711Look at the rules. Oh wait you never witnessed a rulebook
Cleric is a full spellcaster, paladin a martial class.
>>93362761then it's the power source a cleric get's their power from a god and a paladin from a oath with no god involved in 5e... so uhm it's like driving a diesel or a gasoline car, the feel is nearly the same, but you can't put gasoline into a diesel car
>>93362794He said thematically not mechanically
>>93362711Cleric-Fighter are agents for a specific god so they act on their behalf and follow their rules if they want powers, Paladin adheres to a specific code of honor or an oath for their powers.
>>93362711Paladins are chosen, clerics choose.
>>93362850Mechanics inform thematics and vice versa.
>>93362711Typically a sword in the stone. Paladins are supposed to have a custom holy avenger specific to them by their lore and it was basically half their class features mechanically in 1e/2e.WotC fucked that up in 3e and hasn't fixed it since.
>>93362711Knight archetypeFanatic ArchetypeAssuming we are talking about the latest version of dnd, because otherwise your question makes no sense
>>93362711Paladins are the main character.
That's just a paladin with extra steps.
>>93362711Bladed weapons.Cleric-Fighters can still only use maces and the like.
>>93362711I've always wanted to make a full holy team. I think a Paladin/Cleric/Warpriest/Inquisitor would be pretty fucking cool. You've got a nice balance of 4/6/9 spell-lists and even your full caster still has 3/4ths BAB. I wouldn't mind a campaign concept being that everyone in the party is from the same church and just going around doing church-related business from different approaches.
>>93362711I mean, it used to be that paladins had to be good, but now? Not much.
>>93366204I fucking hate that so much. It's not a fucking Paladin if it's not Lawful Good.
>>93366238LG doesn't really work for things like Oath of Conquest.
>>93366262Sure, so drop the Oaths. You go back to being LG warriors of an LG God with your Oath being the restrictions you take to be a Paladin in the first place and the benefits being the class in the first place.
>>93362711Clerics lean closer to a IRL clergy in their duties and way they interact with the world.Paladins lean closer to a particularity Religious Knight in their duties.that is not to say their can't be martially oriented Clergy, as history has shown, but that outside of the occasional priest taking up arms to protect their home or a Journeyman Cleric traipsing around the countryside the fantasy archetype is relatively passive.Paladins on the other hand are active in their duties and serve as crusaders for their goals. A Paladin will take oaths of duty and do shit like stand guard over a graveyard for a month because the townspeople talk about a monster that appears there on the new moon or challenge the Dark knight to single combat.Or to put it another way the Cleric is the guy who preaches a sermon in the church while the Paladin is the guy to give the big rallying speech before battle.Or that while kick down the door to a necromancers crypt the Cleric will be the one to chant the holy wards to keep the dark magics at bay while the Paladin cuts down the Necromancer.Adding Fighter to the Cleric just means they have a bit more martial training but thematically they are still the passive to the Paladins Active.
>>93362711>>93362761Have you tried playing ACKS 2 instead?>all classes are based on a coherent system of "build points">fighter = 2 points in fighting + 2 points in health>crusader (formerly cleric) = 2 points in divine spellcasting + 1 point in fighting + 1 point in health>paladin = 2 points in fighting + 2 points in health (same as the fighter), but some of the fighting ability is exchanged for 4 divine-adjacent powers (aura of protection, lay on hands, sanctified body, sense evil)
>>93366271What if I do like conquest, huh?On more serious note, people making the rules are not going back to giving players fewer options, because giving more options sells more books.
>>93366324>people making the rules are not going back to giving players fewer optionsThey really fucking should.
>>93366310Have you tried killing yourself?
>>93366310>Have you tried playing- ACK!
>>93366324then make a fucking cavalier or fighter retard
>>93366310Buy an ad you annoying fuck.
>>93366310Not even OP is a big enough faggot to play that.
>>93362711Paladins are self-motivated and directed. They are the initiators and arbiters of their stringent codes. They also tend to have martyrdom motifs and mechanically possess smites and area buffs. They are a very socially-oriented class. A cleric-fighter has a looser code than a paladin and it's both externally derived and externally enforced. They not only have mundane superiors - abbots, generals, dukes, etc. - to answer to, they have a patron god, spirits, pantheon, etc. that they have to answer to as well. This is a source of conflicting interests that they must navigate, but they are not as socially adept as a paladin. They are more likely to have ongoing stories about corruption and absolution that are less decisive and more realistic than the pass-fail possibility of a paladin. Mechanically, a cleric-fighter is going to be a more mundane bruiser that proselytizes through miracles and crusades.
>>93362711A Cleric-Fighter is someone who has the blessing of a god granting the ability to use divine magic, and is also very martially capable. These two aspects are entirely independent, although the Cleric-Fighter can synergize the two in practice.A Paladin is so autistic that it manifests into reality.
>>93366310To be fair there's a world of difference between the Paladin (it sucks) and the Cleric/Crusader (marginally better). For the "divine fighter," I would go with the Bladedancer, or my improved version, the Runedancer.
>>93366185>tfw recently wanted to sign up for a campaign with a premise similar to that>tfw it was full before I even saw the adCan't have cool things
>>93362711>dual classnon canon
>>93362711A cleric is a priest, soldier, knight ect chosen by their Church/God, while a Paladin is a chivalric hero of the Church, who is chosen by Men. Warcraft has a great example in Arthas and Uther. Both are "paladins", but Uther is more what could be considered a Cleric; raised by the Church, trained by the Church, and knighted by the Church to a new chivalric order. Arthas however wasn't ordained by the Church, but by virtue of him being the fuckin' Crown Prince, was knighted into the same order, and trained under Uther.
>>93366710Weren't Paladins in the warcraft world basically an intersection between priests and warriors?Basically a bunch of knights that were taught how to wield the light by a bunch of priests or some such?
>>93362711I always interpreted the differential in descriptions as 'who is courting who?' A Cleric makes a proposition to a deity/force that they're going to live by a dogma and if they do, can they please grant some miracles today? Thanks! A fighter-cleric is just this person who trains at the gym after doing their church chores. A Paladin is the opposite; people don't really choose to become paladins, the paladin life chooses them. Whether it's a deity that actually decrees to them 'be my champion' or if it's circumstance that forces the lifestyle (something changed in my life which forces me to take up oath and arms) that person now has an extremely difficult station to maintain. Luckily, they earn some potent abilities for maintaining their difficult lifestyle. Being a paladin was supposed to be difficult, which is why the powerset is so impressive, because the difficulty matches the reward.
>>93367238>Being a paladin was supposed to be difficult, which is why the powerset is so impressive, because the difficulty matches the reward.This is a good point. You'd think that Monks who take Vows of Poverty and similar things should also gain a retinue of excessive powers in return for their arguably more extreme sacrifice than the Paladin.
>>93366310That sounds awful. It's like looking at both class-based systems and classless ones, and picking the worst things from both.Stop advertising and posting offtopic garbage.
>>93366864NTA but yeah, some of the founding members were Knights trained as Priests and some were Priests trained as Knights. It also helps that The Light in Warcraft is powered by conviction above all else so its not like you need to appease any sort of god for the power.
>>93366262Really? Charlemagne and the Saxon conquest was LG. Pretty funny that a game so opposed to mass warfare would have something called oath of conquest though.
>>93367263Depends on the God's tenants. To use the Forgotten realms as an example If your talking one like Ilmater then he is all about noble suffering for the sake of others. If your talking one like Umbersea then she only gives a shit about how many people respect and fear her towards worship, and whatever method one uses to get there.>>93367297The Oath of Conquest is basically a Lawful Evil Paladin Oath. Its all about consorting with Devils and breaking the will of others so that they submit to you and your masters opressive Ironclad Rule. You could call it the Oath of Tyranny and get the same concept across.
>>93362711One is a muscle cleric. Think the father of the girl from Bastard!!The other is a holy knight, much more stalwart & courageous. He isn't a man of knowledge but of action. His God works through him in a serendipitous manner to correct the deviations in the world & break evil
The chad succinct sage >>93362863 vs the virgin longwinded explainer >>93367238
>>93367292So why did Arthas stop wielding the Light?
>>93367442Conviction and lust for vengeance are not the same thing. After Stratholm Arthas light powers started diminishing as he was really fucked up over the whole affair and transmuted that anguish into vengeful rage.Then once he became a Death Knight the Light became an anathema abandoned wholly, replaced with Shadow. For an example of the effects of light on the undead, Undead priests that wield the light are in constant pain as the holy magic both burns them and regenerates their bodies to just enough so feel their decay while they use it.
>>93367487>After Stratholm Arthas light powers started diminishingBut he kept becoming a stronger paladin after Stratholme, until the end of the campaign.He seemed pretty convicted after after becoming a Death Knight, even sailing to Kalimdor to meet Illidain and disrupt the demons>Light became an anathema abandoned wholly, replaced with Shadow.It sounds really silly that he didn't take up Death and the Unholy instead of ShadowAlso, after becoming a Death Knight, he was fighting so much demons and their undead minions that wielding the Light would have seemed so natural and benefited him greatly
>>93367542>But he kept becoming a stronger paladin after Stratholme, until the end of the campaign.Book lore says otherwise and that supersedes the game lore and is even brought up in Wrath via the spectral remnant of him that was good.>It sounds really silly that he didn't take up Death and the Unholy instead of ShadowThat was a turn of phrase on my part to signify the difference, as a death knight he did have all the standard undead powers.>Also, after becoming a Death Knight, he was fighting so much demons and their undead minions that wielding the Light would have seemed so natural and benefited him greatlyAgain he abandoned that power because it no longer suited him and would go against his new strong suits of Undeath.Again light fucks up the undead who wield it and under the scourge no undead besides Arthas would have the know how and/or will to wield it.
>>93367592Eh, stuff bolted on later doesn't match what originally happened. Even the book lore gets routinely retconned, so there's little point in arguing further. I'll just stick to what makes sense for WCIII.>>93367592>That was a turn of phrase on my part to signify the differenceYou're 100% correct going by the book lore. Shadow is the direct opposite of the Light as they stated it, not Death.
>>93367442It's not just any conviction. Sargeras doesn't wield the Light either.People say it's conviction because the Scarlet Crusade can still wield it despite being evil, because they believe they're doing the good thing. But it's not just "I believe I'm right" magic. It's a spiritual and magical link between people who trust each other and would protect each other. Arthas obviously lost that.The Scourge is a hivemind, it's all controlled by a cold monstrous entity, there is no bond. They can't use the Light.And you could argue he didn't have any conviction after he was corrupted, he was just a slave following the hivemind orders like the others.
>>93366310Buy an ad, cuck.
>>93367442>So why did Arthas stop wielding the Light?Frostmourne devoured his soul. Undead whose souls are trapped in their decaying bodies are still capable of drawing on the Light if they have enough faith and conviction, but it fucking hurts and burns them even if it heals them (which is why there's playable holy priests even as undead). Arthas was completely jaded and literally soulless though, I doubt even if he could call upon the light he'd have ever bothered once he became a death knight
>>93366310>Have you tried playing [game that isn't even released yet]?You fool. You absolute tosser. You ass-diddling lemon. Post a pdf or fuck off.
>>93369073https://s3.amazonaws.com/arena-attachments/806237/b7bb037bc412287e162f2cc3f623b191.pdf
>>93366310That list of classes is a mess
>>93362761Stop validating D&D by engaging with it. When you allow it to be discussed, when you talk about it as if it's meaningful or even acceptable... you give it power to continue.Stop allowing it.
>>93366238>It's not a fucking Paladin if it's not Lawful Good.The problem is that "lawful good" is too ambiguous, do I base it on my own conception of good and evil? Do I follow the laws of each kingdom even if I don't agree with them?
>>93362711the oathbreaker beats them both.
>>93362761Not engaging with your queerbait system.>>93362711In 3.5, think of it as being the difference between an old style knight like a knight of The Round or of the Lady of the Lake. You are suppose to be the most virtuous.
>>93362863Then why aren't Paladin/Clerics allowed? Why don't paladins get access to the full spell list? Aren't paladin oaths and warlock pacts thematically the same thing?
>>93368669>which is why there's playable holy priests even as undeadThe reasons for many, many stupid things like that existing in WoW are purely technical. The lore was than carelessly mangled and squished to fit the box of the game's design.
>>93362711IIRC TYPICALLY the way it works as a rule of thumbClerics: Have power flow through them from their God. Clerics channel power.Paladins: Are a source of power, and that power flows from them Clerics act out the authority of their chosen God. Paladins are the authority of their God. Thats just the rule of thumb i generally follow and it seems to be accurate most of the time.
>>93366310>The THIEF has only a 3 in THIEVERY>the racial classes have only 0-3 in their respective racesNo one could recommend this genuinely
>>93371133>>93367263Agreed. "Paladins", Monks, and Warlocks should be the same class.
>>93366176what edition is this true in? in 3.5 you usually use your gods favored weapon. i played a half elf cleric who worshipped the elf god and used a longsword as a result. am i going crazy, its been years since I played 3.5, or are all clerics proficient in their gods favored weapon
>>93367592actually, I'm wow there are tons of undead who channel the light. its just incredibly painful to do so and fucks them up really bad. they even made a new social snowflake light undead as yet another plotline that went nowhere.
>>93367263>You'd think that Monks who take Vows of Poverty and similar things should also gain a retinue of excessive powers in return for their arguably more extreme sacrifice than the Paladin.this existed in the 3.5 book of exalted deedsit was a pretty brainlessly strong build for a new player to pilot around
>>93367238paladins have always sucked, and smite is a genuinely bad mechanic. Lay on Hands and its evil equivalent is way cooler as a signature ability than just DO MORE DAMAGE. So boring.
>>93370980Fuck off, tourist!
>>93370823Older Editions of D&D had explicit definitions about how each of the alignments actually worked.But you also need to keep in mind that Old D&D also function on an axis where Objective Evil things existed and killing them is inherently Good.
>>93362711A paladin is a God's mortal sword, Its physical manifestation of might. A cleric is a priest in armor.
>>93370887The Fourth Overlord is not an oathbreaker.Do not slander his evilness.
>>93362863Literally backwards
>>93366600>Battle Ballerina
>>93372663how so
>>93371320In 3.5e, Clerics get access to simple weapons only. The war domain does give you proficiency and I think weapon focus, I think, with your deity's favorite weapon.
>>93372668Yeah?
>>93372644It was just an example image.
>>93362711One is a member of the clergy.
>>93376394Boo.
>>93362761Paladins are fighting for an oath taken for a purpose, while clerics are fighting for a deity. There have been martial clerics for decades now. So the dual class is unnecessary.
>>93362711There's no strong thematic difference that can be explained in broad strokes, it comes down to the flavor of your specific cleric features and fighter features vs your specific paladin features. It's like talking about the thematic difference between a bard and a sorcerer/fighter/rogue specialized in enchantment.
>>93367263Monks should just be turned into Naruto/Bleach/Dragon Ball classes already so we can stop with all the bullshit around them and give people what they actually want.
>>93383269Play 4e.
>>93383278Literally no one does that
>>93362711A paladin is a knight, not a priest. It's a very different social role. The paladin is an especially godly knight who might receive supernatural blessings for his devotion to his ideals, but unless he takes holy orders he isn't an intercessor for his deity and can't perform the rites that people expect of a priest. The paladin might be personally more pious and virtuous than the fighter/cleric he fights alongside, but he can't grant the priest absolution if he requests it, it only works the other way around.
>>93362711The paladin is actually effective. The cleric is losing spellcasting levels for zero benefit.
>>93366337no they shouldn't.
>>93362711For the love of God, please play something that isn't 5e, you absolute normie shit.
>>93366310>>93371209Given the highest anything else seems to start with is 4, the scale might work. Also the ones with 4 in anything have a 0 in fighting while the Thief's got some degree of fighting. Weird that Paladin's a 0 divine vs Crusader or Shaman.
>>93367904>>93367542"Death and Unholy" weren't split off from the umbrella of "Shadow" till Chronicle>>93367904Huh, that's an interesting take, is that WC1 or 2?Also shows why Dark Irons can use it, something even more impressive than the SC
>>93362711>Dee n deeCleric: a theurgical spellcaster whose powers are tied to a specific, Gods based, faith;Paladin: an exalted champion of a cosmic virtue (that usually supersedes faith based procedures);Cleric-fighter: a cleric with considerable martial training.>Not d&dCleric: a priest.Paladin: a carolingian knight-count, a romanticised figure of knighthood.Cleric-fighter: a priest of some combat/martial order probably.
>>93387750>"Death and Unholy" weren't split off from the umbrella of "Shadow" till ChronicleShadow was kind of separate, but mysterious.
>>93383211Who do Paladins swear their Oaths to?
>>93388906The Oath itself is what gives them power. It is cosmically official in its own right. Paladins don't have to swear to a deity in specific.
>>93388921Depends of edition and setting. If your talking 5e in a vacuum then yeah, but event the 5e forgotten realms has you drawing your Oathbound power from a deity that allows it even if they are not directly involved with you.
>>93388921So they just swear an oath . . . to nothing?
>>93387750>Huh, that's an interesting take, is that WC1 or 2?WC1
>>93389151To themselves?
>>93366185
>>93390026So paladins are fedora tippers now, euphoric because they are enlightened by their own intelligence now?No wonder people fucking hate 5e. I finally get it.
>>93362711A Paladin is a Jedi/Sith. Loads of conviction, might be from a god might not, and it's all behind the sword.A Cleric-Fighter is an especially devout Knight who can call on their God for air support.That should clear it up.
Since this is a Paladin-based thread I'll ask this here. When the old guys made D&D back in the day, was the "hippie" Paladin or the "deus vult" Paladin the intended version of it?
>>93372644The third overlord could perfectly be an oathbreaker.
>>93390329It leaned closer to the Deus Vult type but overall were meant to be a chivalric knight. The kind that goes and recuses princess from castles and swears oaths to protect other from harm in return for them treating him with charity and respect.However old D&D was still about going into to dungeons and killing monsters for loot above all else, so butchering a orc tribe in a cave was fine because orcs were just pillaging brutes that destroyed anything around them. Not only that but as a heroic knight the Paladin would be obligated to face any evil that crossed his path.However as a Paladin he was then duty bound to take a % of his earnings from his adventuring and give it to charity.More Hippie towards the good side of the spectrum and more Deus Vult towards the Evil side of the Spectrum.
>>93390432Quite.iirc, wasn't he suffering from amnesia though?
>>93362711depends on the setting/system/DM
>>93390287That's 2e lore, nogames.
>>93366310Reminds me of the old Rolemaster system with d100 weapon and crit tables lol
>>93362711What a good thread I'm sure the creator was talented and handsome
>>93362711Baldur's Gate 2 explains this with Anomen if my memory is correct, they have completely different trainings. IIRC Anomen couldn't afford to be a paladin and chose to train as a cleric while doing fighting training on his own
>>93390287They're knights who fight for a moral cause and derive their magic from their virtue. I think it's pretty cool and is closer to the chivalric ideals than just being pawns of gods and churches.
>>93391085>wasn't he suffering from amnesia though?Yes, apparently, but I have my doubts if it was amnesia or just a great hatred towards his former companions who betrayed him.
one steals the glory and the other looks at him with envy.
>>93362711Clerics are priests.Paladins are holy knights.Fighters are just fighters.I hope this has cleared things up for you, because it should now be obvious to you.
>>93390329When D&D was made back in the day there was no Paladin, just the Cleric. Paladins were added in the Greyhawk supplement as a fighting-man variant. The idea was more along the lines of a fighter whose innate virtue gave him bonuses to saving throws. The inspiration draws more from questing knights in Arthurian romance and chansons de geste - Galahad, for example. Spellcasting ability came much later.The Cleric was always more "champion of a religious militant order" - Gygax gave historical inspirations for the Cleric as the Knights Hospitaller or the Knights Templar in AD&D.
>>93397805>GalahadYou are the first person I have seen who mentions any knight of the Round Table before Lancelot.
>>93398656NTA but Lancelot is the second most well known figure in Arthurian Mythology purely because the french that came up with him did so within the first real age of mass written literature, so its not that surprising.
>>93398656Galahad's the straight-up inspiration mentioned for Paladins in AD&D. Maybe more people should try actually looking at older editions for D&D for once?
Paladins are the male porn stars. Clerics are the fluffers who keep his dick hard between takes.
>>93362711Aesthetically they are pretty much the same in being holy fantasy warriors.
>>93403143Aesthetically Clerics wear more subdued bulky armor, typically chain complete with coif if they have any helm at all, a wield a blunted weapon like a mace.Paladins on the other hand are associated with Full Plate that is ornately designed wielding, straight edged swords of varying type.
Paladins are a hero class, while fighters and clerics are common class.
>>93362711Palabungas rely on Smite spam as a crutch for an otherwise mediocre class.Clerics actually use spell slots for a variety of effects, including some of the most powerful early game spells (Inflict Wounds, Spiritual Weapon, Spirit Guardians).
>>93370183I wasn't going to interact with this thread but I'm bumping it because of your autism
>>93362711Paladins are skilled warriors that embody purity and the righteous cause of good and order first and foremost.Clerics are emissaries and intermediaries of their deities who receive some combat training.A fighter-cleric is just a cleric that fights real good.Now, and Ordained Champion of Heironeous (becaus fuck Hextor) is a god among giga chads.
>>93362711Making Paladin a core class is a thematic mistake and takes away from it shoehorning it into a very specific kind of Fighter when you could just as well have a Wizard or a Rogue take such oaths and make for interesting characters.
>>93411057The same can be said about warlocks
>>93411108Indeed! I hate the thematic idea of the warlock especially if it's suppose to be a wizard who couldn't hack it in wizard school so instead learns magic from some kind of divine being but is totally not a cleric because whatever reason
>>93366310I'd rather play with dndrones and their multi-colored tieflings than this shit.
>>93411057Agreed. 3.5 fucked up by making clerics much better than paladins, which should have been a rare and high powered prestige class. AD&D did it better.
>>93408782>Now, and Ordained Champion of Heironeous (becaus fuck Hextor) is a god among giga chads.But Hextor ones get to use Battlearms in place of Divine Power once they have Str enhancement bonus gear. I guess TECHNICALLY any cleric can cast it but it's a Hextor themed spell.Huzzah for extra arms to either go multiweilding better than even Multiweapon fighting or to use them all to swing your 2hander with 6 hands. Extra .5 str bonus per arm. (But no extra power attack scaling because that would get literally insane.
>>93411057>Wizard or a Rogue take such oaths and make for interesting characters.Wouldn't work because a Paladin's first loyalty is to his Oath, while a Wizard's first loyalty is to his power, and a Rogue's first loyalty is to themselves. If you're talking about a multiclassed Paladin, like a Paladin/Rogue, you could create a scenario where justice must be done in the shadows, because Tyranny rules the day. Even so, that's still ultimately just a Paladin who uses an alternative means to carry out their oath.
>>93419425Oh fine I suppose! If we absolutely must have Paladin as it's own class (which is hilarious when consider you had to earn your way into being a Blackguard in 3.5) then at least do for Paladin what was done with Druid and Cleric where you have in-class options on how you do your thing least we repeat the silliness of 3/3.5 where you needed an entire subclass ( grey paladin I believe) just to act more like a person or a subclass that lets you be sneaky...But in armor!
>>93420591The whole point of having a class system is protectionism for tropes or in-game cultures.If you want to mix and match everything then you want a classless system.
>>93420615The "good" class system provides options while protecting the core identity of a class which D&D doesn't do well, at all. Part of that being that they don't really expand upon the core identity of the class itself changing its nature from edition to edition and being beholden to the sacred cow.
The paladin is the best, is good, is god!!!
