Bows, especially longbows, should be STR based. They require immense arm strength to draw the string, and while the trope of lithe archers is largely based on characters like Legolas, elves in LOTR were stupidly OP.
>>93363792Even D&D has an option for str damage bonus for bows. I believe it's called composite.Non issue.Aiming should be Wis based because actual archery largely relies on observation of better archers and instinct. But that's unnecessary autism.
>>93363792I'll agree with this, but ONLY if swords become dex based.
>>93363792You never did archery.Bows have a maximum draw length, which is easily governed by a strength requirement. Pulling the string harder past the strength requirement either breaks it or the arrow slips off, as its length is ideally adjusted to the draw length.Yes, big bows should have a high strength requirement. It's however not as easy. You don't put more strength into your bow, you simply get a heavier one. Aiming, being able to hit, has nothing to do with how musly your arms are if you can already draw it reliably. Being a better shot is based on hand-eye-coordination, perception and simply skill. Working out harder doesn't make you better at aligning the arrow to your target, that's hand-eye-coordination.>b-but muh staminaIf you want to be absolutely autistic, you might as well reduce stamina for every swing. Have fun with such a type of system (you won't).This is ultimately a massive no-game meme.
>>93363912>Have fun with such a type of system (you won't).It's fine with a computer. I played Harn and Myfarog and simply automated related tasks for both.
>>93363912this only reinforces that a skinny twink shouldn't be able to wield a bow.DEX builds are nonsense.
>>93364000It's gameplay abstraction, retard. The main point is to probably not have everyone fighting over the same gear.
>>93364000Dex generally covers hand eye coordination, so frankly an archer should be a quality (str and dex) build, assuming they want to use anything stronger than a light target bow. And frankly if we follow this logic, both strength (speed and power of swings) and dex (hand eye coordination for proper edge alignment and hitting where you mean to) should be required for competency in most melee weapons too. Every form of combat could be boiled down to needing at least decent strength, dexterity, and constitution (getting gassed in a fight before your opponent is GG) to be good.
Raw stats are always bad at reflecting ability.Being good with a sword isn't about being strong, it's about being good with a sword. Being good with a bow isn't about being dexterous, it's about being good with a bow.RPGs always overvalue raw ability over practice and skill, that's an abstraction that seeks to smooth over incredibly complicated real life factors.
>>93364055The main point was actually to enable thieves not having to be built like muscled thugs to do damage.In AD&D if you wanted to do damage in combat, you had Strength.Dex could get you to survive more through dodging, and in fact a great fighter would be high str and high dex, but dex was more for thief skills (or ranger skills).With 3e the idea of dex based fighting became a thing, in part because WotC (as they openly said in issues of dragon magazine at the time) wanted Fighter to no longer be the most popular class in the game.This is also why Wizard/Priest got so many buffs in 3rd Edition.Yet no matter how much they buffed other classes, Fighter remained incredibly popular.So iirc they admitted that they stopped around the time Fighter went from 70+% pickrate to 50%, since they felt if they went any further the Fighter would be too shit compared to everything else.
>>93364000What's the problem here? Yes, a dedicated bow-character would have high strength and even higher dexterity or whatever the systems equivalent is, and you got a dedicated character. And it seems like you assume that the english longbow is the only bow in existence, as some will sure mention these twisted bones from english archers. However, there are smaller draw weight bows that would easily have a place in an adventurers arsenal of moderate fitness and come with their own advantages, such as faster firing rates and being easier to transport. Yes, they wouldn't penetrate plate armor and they don't need to when not every opponent is running around in full plate 24/7.I've seen all your arguments plenty of times and it just seems pretentious and contrarian for the sake of it. No anon, the blind retard with broader arms than a couch shouldn't be a better shot with the same bow as the guy that can spot a fly's balls from a mile away. That would be retarded. This wouldn't make for a good game, skew build variety in weird directions and kill off classic archetypes just for thinking you know better.
>>93363792I have gotten in endless arguments with people that don't understand physics about bowsA bow is not a gun, it transfers energy from your arms to an arrow. If the bow is easy to pull then the arrow won't be carrying much energy at all. Twinky archers with stick arms are only good for showmanship shooting at paper targets, they won't do shit in real combat
You've been shitposting about this for years. No one else is ever going to care about this. There's even rules about adding strength to bows in several games, including big ones like D&D3x and GURPS. What a complete non-issue you're wasting your life on.
>>93363792The way I do it is that the range and damage are determined by the archer's strength and the accuracy is determined by their dexterity. This MADness is worth it though, because I use a lot of difficult terrain and bladed damage is very lethal in my games, so being able to deal it at long range is majorly worth it.
>>93364000elves only look like skinny twinks. they're actually quite strong.
>>93363792Retard-kun, only certain types of bows like Longbows require inordinate strength.Most recurve bows can be drawn fine by average strength pre-modern people.Its more accurate to rule minimum strength prereq being dictated by bow type.
>>93363827hand eye coordination and most coordination is dex. wis tends to be to notice, while dex is to execute.
>>93363792>trope that needs to die-- Enclosed spaces that are too spacious and convenient to navigate; that promopte complete disregard of illumination, crawling, squeezing, attrition, hunger, thirst, disorientation, etc. Everything is too comfortable.-- Magic being safe, convenient and predictable.
>>93363912This. In my Heartbreaker, bows have a "draw" str requirement and melee weapons have "heft." Heft is a soft requirement though -- you get maluses to attack rolls when you are below heft and it's actually normal to be below heft for many weapons for the average man (for example large axes or pikes).
>>93364128>string on the wrong sideI don't care about how it's handled in game mechanics, but boy my butthole gets blasted when basic shit like that gets fucked up.
>Autistic bow draw weight threadsweet! I'm gonna make some popcorn.
Yet again it comes down to "skinny guys make me feel insecure so I want them to be disincentivized"
>>93363792>They require immense arm strength Retard, bows are drawn with the back not the arms.>>93364730A bows draw weight has nothing to do with its design, there are low weight longbows and high weight modern recurves, and high draw weights are not exclusive the euro longbows, most bows used for war or even big game hunting had high draw weights.
>>93364000I am literally a skinny twink and I can shoot a bow that would k*ll most men in anything but plate armor. My 35# recurve bow is legal for hunting I believe, if not it's only 5 or 10 lbs short. War bow would require much higher strength though yes.
>>93363792Bows are for girls
>>93366709is that so?
>>93366722>japanese people be like "let's take our storied heroes and make them into sexy anime girls"why are they like this
>>93366738nah, he's a guy.And given that artist used to draw porn...and also gave us this perfect woman, I think we can give him a break.
>>93366761>japanese people be like "let's take our storied heroes and make them into twinky femboys"why are they like this
>>93366769now now, they also turn them into bara hunks.This is Nikola Tesla.
>>93366738first, that's a boysecond, the real Nasu no Yoichi was allegedly very handsome in lifethird, Kouta Hirano (the guy responsible for the manga version) is unapologetical coomer
>>93366769to daze and confuse you
>>93366761>>93366784>that's a boyGreat and I already saved the picture, now I'm gay.
>>93363792This is a gun fag thread.
>>93367409Unlikely. You're only one of those.
>>93363792Dex for hit bonus, Str for damage bonus.
>>93367736This but for all weapons, not just bows.
>>93363792GURPS solves this.
>>93366738that's a guy in the manga. he is just a sexy femboy
>>93363912Dex to hit and Str to damage then
>>93368898Read again.
But how do we make crossbows interesting?
>>93363792>not meeting the minimum STR requirement inflicts a malus to range and damage>accuracy depends on DEX (and damage if there is no locational damage)It's that fucking simple
>>93363792You mean D&D?
>>93363792The trope I hate is slings being shit. A skilled slinger can outrange most bowmen with greater precision in the bargain and much higher kinetic force - provided they're using proper bullets and not just random rocks. You can't really so it in a saddle and it takes more and more difficult training to get gud at, but it always bums me out when slings are depicted as a joke weapon you only use if you're desperate.
>>93368928>A skilled slinger can outrange most bowmen with greater precisionAre slingers the new spearfags with their revisionist cope?
>>93369006I'm sorry historical fact upsets you.
>>93369024I'm sorry you're a fan of the weapon closest to carrying a mans testicles.
>>93369035...That is a brilliant idea for mythology.
>>93363792>RPG trends that need to dieClerics casting spells. Priests, clerics, cultists, and whatever quote scripture, perform minor rituals, and manipulate the lowest common denominators in crowds - they don't cast spells. This bullshit has been going on for ages and I'm sick to death of finding new rpg systems only to have "priest" or "cleric" leering at me from the class sections. Additionally, the absolute favoritism shown to this cluster of magic panhandlers is just salt in the wound.
>>93364763Fuck caving. That shit is heinous.
>>93368898If anything, dex to hit and str to actually fire the bow, without directly affecting the damage. It's like trying to argue that your rifle should shoot harder because your arms are bigger, the weapon is the thing doing all the actual work. You just need the strength to actually use it, but that doesn't reflect on the overall performance like your manual dexterity does.
>>93363792>shriveled basement dweller arms typed this post
>>93363792The classic D&D stat system is trash and should be done away with.
>>93364098But that was an engineered issue in the first place, so the things Dumb&Dumber do to solve it remain retarded. Any IRL fighter can tell you fights are as much agility as they are strength. A bodybuilder going after a MMA fighter like a retarded caveman will have his ass handed back to him on a silver platter, same for a skinny gymnastic twink.
>>93368919We dont. Crossbows are boring as fuck.
>>93368928Unfortunately slings are also very lame. And while I do not disagree with your point of view that it isn't a joke weapon, all this "slinger superiority" stuff seems like just as much bullshit because human history disagrees. And I'm well aware of there being examples of slingers that were supposedly employed in historic warfare to a deadly effect, but overall it's hard to believe that the bow became the ranged weapon of choice all over the world when it gets outclassed in every way by a leather strap. Almost every single civilization in the world somehow focused on the tool/weapon that is inferior and harder to produce just because the superior and much easier to produce one is a bit harder to get good with? Even professional hunters, soldiers and armies and nobles, everyone who had the time and opportunity to make that advantage their own and they all independently just went >Nah, bows innit?for no reason.
>>93366031>bows draw weight has nothing to do with its designsorry, then just differentiate between heavy and light bows.
>>93364796He shrimply let the bow spin in his grip with the force from the last shot. You're seeing it after it stopped moving. :)
>>93370192That's a lie though. Hunters regularly even now still use slings, throwing sticks, nets, spears, etc. Bows are a novelty at best in the global hunting industry, and of course, everyone who can maintain one gets a gun instead because the faster you can learn to kill another animal reliably the faster you stop going hungry.
>>93363792>Look mom I saw a trope talk video on youtubes and post about it on le ebic 4chan!Satan I hate summer and you underate faggots flooding the boards. GET a summerjob loser
>>93375488Most of the users these days are mind-broken failed adults, a kid on summer break is an asset to this community. It's not what it used to be.
>>93363792>ropes in RPGs that need to dieTolkien inspired setting.
>>93363792>Tropes in RPGs that need to diePretty sure it's circumscribed to just a bunch of ttrpgs, there are lots of them having STR requirements for all weapons (brp, gurps, savage worlds from the top of my head).Anyways, don't play retarded editions of an already retarded enough game. In d&d 3.5e composite bows have strength requirements (and add the str modifier to the damage inflicted).
>>93364098The problem now is that if you GM hands out any good DEX weapons, there is zero reason to put points into STR for combat, other than for saving throws. DEX is the most overtuned stat in 5E, as it stands.
>>93371917Bows are a novelty because rifles exist, slings are something even more obscure than that.
>>93368928>A skilled slinger can outrange most bowmenYes.>with greater precisionNo. Not even close, but less effected by wind.
>>93363792D&D needs better ways to make dex and str relevant.
>>93383173DEX is already the best stat unless you're running a talkie campaign.
>>93383198I said better, not mechanically superior.
>>93366769>>93368893You can just say "trap".
>>93363792>Bows, especially longbows, should be STR basedHave you tried not playing DnD? Because that's literally industrial standard to have them STR based since late 80s and/or apply damage bonuses from STR
>>93368898Wow anon, it's like you figured out a "solution" to a "problem" that ceased to exist by early-to-mid 90s in tabletop games design. Except for that one living fossil from the late 70s...
>>93370192Slings went out of fashion due to a higher skill floor, especially in the context of war.
>>93363792That's not a trope, that's just a gameplay mechanic. And one that, at this point, is reserved to just a single game and its derivatives. So you are basically angry about something that exists only in your head and/or because you obsessively play the game that uses this mechanic rather than either homebrewing it (implying the game in question can be salvaged, lmao) or playing something else.
I can link to a random lars andersen video and prove you wrong but oh well.
>>93364090One thing I liked about games like Dark Heresy and the other FFG 40k RPGs is their use of Weapon Skill and Ballistic Skill as key characteristics alongside the usual strength, intelligence etc.
>>93385085>english's spelling sucks>ummm... have you tried speaking slovenian???? it has perfect spelling!!!No one cares about that irrelevant shit. D&D is what everyone plays and is the default and standard.
>>93385320You could, but it would prove nothing, because Lars is a circus clown playing with a toy no more a bow than a foil is a sword and a fencer a swordsman.
>>93363912You just described bows in GURPS >If you want to be absolutely autistic, you might as well reduce stamina for every swingYou can do this using the Action Points in The Last Gasp. Fun addition to the game. Makes for cool cinematic fights.
>>93363934>I played Harn MyfarogI'm sorry.
>>93366769Very different culture with different standards about masculinity and femininity. The short, simple version is that the Japanese don't see a contradiction between "cute" and "badass" the way Americans do.
>>93385124Bow users being nimble lithe guys (or women) IS a trope though.
>>93363792Your STR doesn’t add to the damage of a drawn bow but your DEX I. Getting the heart box will.
>>93385820There's so much good autism in GURPS.
>>93385320Has he ever done his tricks with a penetration test?
>>93369520So M-Us have a school of healing spells or no magic healing?
>>93363912>>93385820In GURPS, bow damage is based on its Rated ST, which also serves as the minimum ST needed to use it.Hitting is based on a DX-based skill.Melee weapons also have minimum ST to use but the damage is separated from it and directly related to the wielder's ST.
>>93388725Low-level healing magic should be accessible as minor rituals nearly anyone can use (even for mundane priests) with almost no risk as well as regular spells for most casters. Mid-range to advanced healing should be learnable for a variety of casters in the form of spells or accessible to anyone in the form of risky rituals (i.e. risk of mutations, sanity drain, minor curses). All of this would be in addition to mundane healing like herbal remedies and minor surgery.Locking perfect risk-free healing behind religious classes always felt like a cheap way to limit the system to certain campaign styles.
>>93363827Dnd indeed has this at least in third edition, also a trait you can pick that makes your bow shots run off wisdom
>>93385756>retard shows his power levelYou don't play anything at all, yet you manage to bitch about an issue that doesn't really affects you and which is easy to fix on multitude of ways.Stay mad, I guess
>>93386423Name 10 examples then, and no, you can't re-use Legolas. I'll wait
>>93389158Not that guy but>mockingjay/hunger games>elf in original Gauntlet vidya>elves in various '80s and '90s fantasy moviesI'm sure theres more, I suck at media.
>>93383151You are objectively wrong and seem to think that canadian hobbyists are the whole planet.
>>93389158NTA, but since you're so stunningly retarded:>new lara croft>that pre-historical robot game wymyn protag>the female elven ranger in that classic oldschool painting where the party has ganked a little dragon>that disney movie where the ginger princess fights the patriarchy or whatever>the gurl avatar alien in Avatar>what's her skinny face in Arthur (2004)>Narnia I think>some bitch in Blade
>>93390094>>new lara croft>>that pre-historical robot game wymyn protagTwo games where the character main form of combat is planting their feet down hard and slowly aiming. Old Lara would dance circles around new Lara. These retards can't even jump unless there's a contextualized button prompt.>>the female elven ranger in that classic oldschool painting where the party has ganked a little dragonIs a painting that shows the aftermath and not her doing sick cartwheels. And the bow is sized to match.>>that disney movie where the ginger princess fights the patriarchy or whateverYou didn't watch it.>the gurl avatar alien in Avatar>what's her skinny face in Arthur (2004)>Narnia I think>some bitch in BladeMore shit you didn't watch. I swear half the problem with trope retards like is that you think any action or event or object in a story is a trope. A character can't sit down after a fight without someone going THAT'S X TROPE! AS SEEN IN MY FAVORITE ANIMU AVATAR!!
>>93390132>missing anons' point this hard
>>93364098Isn't that a good thing? Muscle is for jocks and nerd games shouldn't be based around jock power fantasies
>>93390094>>93390094>>the gurl avatar alien in AvatarShe's a 9 foot tall alien in a race where all the aliens have space marine strength and can casually toss humans aside with one hand.
>>93390132Is it tiring to have to run so fast and so far with the goalpost?
>>93390423>9 foot tallShe's not using a human-sized bow, retard. She could be one foot tall or a hundred feet tall, it doesn't matter.>all the aliens have space marine strengthVisually, they have the same muscular sexual dimorphism as humans, and I don't remember the movie insisting that in space paradise, there is physical space equality between the space sexes. Even if it did, it'd just be a shit cop out to rationalize the trope.Anyway, I don't know what you or the other anon is whining about, I'm not saying women can't ever shoot any bow ever, just that it's a common trope in fiction that the women wield bows, whereas in reality, adult women are significantly physically weaker than adult men and therefore less capable of using tools and weapons that require strength.
>>93366779Have a French Nikola Tesla.
I think the trope of Elves being hyped up as the top tier race who consider themselves the best without any mechanics needs to go. If the lore writes a cheque the system's numbers can't cash don't fucking do it.
>>93390811No demi-human PCs solves so many problems.
>>93363827The actual reason that aiming ranged weapons doesn't key off of perception/wisdom is entirely mechanical. Both TSR and WotC didn't want Clerics to end up being better sharpshooters than fighting men or thieves/rogues since they also get spells. Dexterity governing your armor class and literally physically dodging out of blows and how good you are at sneaking and hiding shouldn't have to be irrevocably tied to how accurate you are at hitting the bullseye with a crossbow bolt. For what it's worth in 3.X there were various options to get wisdom based archery in recognition of this, and 4th edition had more flexible ability score usage by classes in general. Off the top of my head Call of Cthulhu simply has a dedicated Firearms skill you roll for attacks, defenders can't roll to Dodge bullets but can forfeit their next turn's action to take cover which applies a penalty to the attack. One of the reasons dexterity is so strong is that it governs defenses plus saves plus "skillful" melee weapons plus all ranged weapons, if you made marksmanship wisdom based (being good in a meth-fueled twitchy knife-fight and being a deadeye sniper are entirely different skill sets and even physical activities) would nerf it a decent amount, but now druids with a bow are gonna be more common and I guess ranged Rangers get to be less MAD which is..a good thing?
>>93363792They should have strength requirements to use, but still be dex based to actually fight with.Seems like an easy fix to me. Just add more strength requirements across the board. Gives strength something to do beyond being the ultimate dump stat anyway.
>>93390132None of your points refute the fact that in pop culture a bow is considered a woman's weapon. It's partially because (at least COMPOUND bows) are one of the few non-gun weapons that a woman is genuinely not that different from a man in using, women don't have worse eyesight than men do, since they have levers built in even a literal child can manage the draw weight, and so it's simply a matter of hand-eye coordination and aiming to use. This isn't even a purely Western thing, traditional Japanese archery is considered a posh and proper activity for young women in Japan the same way equestrianism is, and the latter is even the case in the West as well. Everybody knew at least one "horse girl" growing up, and being a jockey is in fact another rare activity where sex is essentially irrelevant- and considering how much fucking money there is in gambling on horse races, believe me, if having a manlet or a woman riding the horse made a difference YOU'D KNOW. Bows are a feminine weapon in the public consciousness. Yes yes you can whine about MUH ENGLISH WAR BOW AT AGINCOURT but that's not the kind of how most people think of, it's not the kind of bow people use today, and it's not even the way people use bows in fucking TTRPGs, you don't volley fire your projectiles in the vague direction of the enemy by aiming up into the sky in games like D&D, you're actually taking your how and aiming at them trying to hit one guy in particular, or are doing robin hood/green arrow pulpy trick shots. I mean if you wanna get all Freudian the bow is literally a weapon with a giant fucking hole in it versus more phallic weaponry like swords. Hell, Amazons supposedly cut off one breast to be better at archery (I guess they were too hardcore for a normal chest protector)
>>93390816Using systems that don't require racial equity solves so many problems.
>>93390132Anon, just saying.It is OK to admit you misunderstood. Lot of things don't translate well in anonymous text message.We couldn't care less about who you are.Anon here, only care about one thing: sharing their opinions, as they mean it.
>>93369035LOL oh fuck
>>93391083>since they have levers built in even a literal child can manage the draw weightWhy not make a heavier weight bow?>if having a manlet or a woman riding the horse made a difference YOU'D KNOW.Then why are all the top jockeys male?>I mean if you wanna get all FreudianThe word you're looking for is "symbolic". No need to involve a jewish hack.
>>93385784Olympic fencing has done untold damage to the perception of swords and swordplay.
>>93363792Most ttrpgs aren't real-life simulators, so it's a moot point.DEX makes more sense game-wise. You're also confusing real-life archery and movie archery. Strength isn't that important in real life. I've shoot with women and they had the same length of arrow going in the target as more muscled men. The bow does most of the work. I'm talking non-hunting bows here.The big difference is stamina. It gets hard to shoot multiple times if you don't have enough arm strength. But even that is barely a problem as the required strength isn't that high to begin with. It's just that the arm will shake and mess with the hand-eye coordination when shooting, not that you can't draw the bow.
>>93363792Your physical actions from attacking to your physical speed should all key off of str.Dex should not be an attack stat in any regard and should only govern your ability to hit things depending upon the weapon/ability.Spell casting should make use of all the stats: Int being the ability to learn and manipulate spells, Cha when dealing with magic that you have to use from an outside force or controlling something, and Wisdom for spells you use to detect and find things.Con should be removed and be a derived stat, your HP is then determined by a combination of class and race options.
>>93394416Every point you make was refuted very early in the thread, Ms. Midwit.
>>93394606Real life proved my points before the thread was even made, Mrs. Ducon.
>>93394233>Why not make a heavier weight bow?Unless there's a specific reason they need to do so, why would they? If a given draw weight works for the purpose, increasing that is just going to make the bow harder to use for not much gain. For monsters that need a massive amount of force to actually meaningfully harm you would probably not be using a bow at all, assuming the characters aren't superhuman.
>>93394659Bows have a draw strength. The bows you used were weak little target bows that children could shoot. A bow that would be used in combat would have a much higher strength requirement. Hence, the trope of twinks and foids being archers is unfounded, because a proper combat archer needs a lot of strength to draw a bow worth a damn.If you read any of the thread before posting, you'd have seen this.
>>93395025Maybe he did read your dumb whiny posts and found them lacking.
>>93395111Not my posts. I just have an intolerance to midwittery.
>>93395982Yes, I also have intolerance to people like you.
>>93394882>why would you want to deal more damage?Woman moment.
>>93394416>verisimilitude is a moot pointI agree! My games never have mundane things like causation in them. Why bother? It's a moot point!
>>93394882>If a given draw weight works for the purpose, increasing that is just going to make the bow harder to use for not much gain.The gain is a more powerful impact (and heavier arrows, which also contribute to a more powerful impact). >For monsters that need a massive amount of force to actually meaningfully harm you would probably not be using a bow at allA (powerful) bow seems like a very good weapon in this instance, since it allows you to maintain a distance.A bow is not a uniform item, so saying that they're a "strength weapon" doesn't make sense, since it depends on the bow. However, for COMBAT, someone pretty much always want to be using the heaviest draw that they can effectively wield.
>>93363792Controversial Opinion: Since bows require lots of strength you need to have good hand eye coordination, then make bows STR/ DEX weapons. Kill the idea of single stat weapons entirely.
>>93396263who?
>>93396283>someone pretty much always want to be using the heaviest draw that they can effectively wield.Nah mate. Who would carry a two handed sword or wield a spear when a dagger does essentially the same thing? It's a moot point! The sexes are finally equal (by decree).
>>93363792I think part of the issue is mostly a balance matter.>Make bows STR based?Great, dex-focused classes need to double dip to STR to do any respectable damage. Also homogenizes physical combat classes all more towards STR dumping. (not to say DnD-like systems don't suffer from Dex being king though)>Make Bows work off both STR and DEXDepending on how it's done, it either sucks because you need to invest in two stats to get the benefit of one, or Bows basically get full benefit of both and end up a significantly better physical damage option than melee. Admittedly realistic, but we are talking gameplay balance, not realism. Though on the note of realism:>Make ALL physical damage weapons (except guns and crossbows) run off of both DEX and STRI can't necessarily give an argument against this but I do wonder if it would add to the class/playstyle homogenization issues.
>>93396301>Kill the idea of single stat weapons entirely.There are almost no weapons that don't require both IRL. Sure, a rapier requires a bit less strength and a bit faster reflexes compared to a "regular" sword, but you need a lot of strength for real combat - it takes muscle to push a blade into flesh, especially if you hit bone and need to scrape along it.
>>93398307>Sure, a rapier requires a bit less strength and a bit faster reflexes compared to a "regular" sword,Your standard rapier is at least the same weight of an arming sword and easily the length of a longsword. You're probably thinking of a training foil, which is essentially a car antenna.
>>93363792STR is martial prowess, the ability to lift heavy things and swing them with great power, to push and resist being pushed through sheer weight of muscles and endurance to keep doing these things. DEX is physical prowess, the ability to control your own body, coordinate your muscles under great strain, lift yourself and the endurance to stay nimble throughout the day.A boxer is STR based, an acrobat is DEX based, they are both physically strong, just in a different way.
>>93398307>a rapier requires a bit less strengthOutside of greatswords and ultra heavy cavalry swords rapiers require the most strength as they weight as much or more than most one handed swords and are held with the arm extended, longswords generally weight a bit more but they are typically held with two hands.
>>93398568A boxer is also dexterity-based. Maybe not so much in D&D rules, but in reality, coordination/quickness is more important than strength.>so a quick lightweight can beat a heavyweight champion???No, because the heavyweight still has good dex. Maybe not as much (because of how strength-weight ratios work), but still enough to prevail.
>>93398676...to add to this, there isn't a strong correlation between how much weight someone can lift, and how hard they can punch, so long as you're comparing two boxers of the same weight. Striking hard is about technique and body mass. Even just getting fat can make you hit harder. (it's easier to increase punch force this way than through strength training).
>>93398676>>93398718We can sperg about the specifics forever but point is that DEX characters are also strong, just in a different way than STR characters.
>>93398522"Slightly" less. Thrusts require less strength than swings because of lever effects.
>>93363912Based post, now I don't need to read the rest of the thread.
>>93400302No. High Dexterity characters are dexterous. Strong characters have high Strength. High Intelligence people aren't "also strong but in a different way because smarts is also a strength". Stop misusing language, lady.>>93400541>"Slightly"What are you quoting?>Thrusts require less strength than swingsYou've never fenced. Fencing isn't solely about the impact and regardless of your weapon, you're going to want to impart as much force as you can without compromising yourself, so your "requirement" point is irrelevant. A fencer spends most of his time in a given guard. Typical rapier guards are at least as hard (if I'm being generous) if not harder to hold than typical arming sword guards.
>>93368898yes, everything should be dex to hit, including melee attacks. this is obvious to anyone and cannot really be argued against.
>>93363792Smelly dirty disagreeable dwarves.If you live underground in tight conditions you will be kept clean and get along as necessary.
>>93390993the fusion of dexterity and agility into one stat was a mistake
>>93368868No, it really doesn't. It makes it objectively worse by adding needless complications that only enhance fun if you are too autistic to function as a normal human being.
>>93401158Imagine proudly posting about being a normie on a mongolian basket weaving forum.
>>93363792Archery should be based on necromancy, you should have to kill small animals and read their entrails in order to know where your arrows are going.
>>93363792"Humans are special despite every sentient race being them with cosmetic differences."
>>93363792high STR should be required to avoid penaltiesbut STR based, nah
>>93368919they're basically guns, go all-in>alchemist capsule revolver>huge sniper xbow>automatic reloadetc
>>93363792DEX for accuracy, STR for damage. Not just for bows, but for nearly every weapon.Some exceptions would be hitting enemies in heavy armor (where STR would determine if you hit hard enough to do damage) and small weapons like daggers (where it matters how where/how you stab rather than how hard you stab).
>>93390363It's 2024. Nerds can be buff.
>>93388725Magical healers are fine.Having holy magic and priesthood be the end-all be-all of magical healing is less fine.
>>93398585Gay puffy shirts, those ridiculous parachute pants with high socks, and devil beards all go with a vulgar and non-fantasy style. Same with rapiers, generally.
>>93363827>DnD is spastic so this is a solved issueA lot of better systems tie accuracy to an actual accuracy skill instead of making every class control their aim with a random-ass attribute.
>>93391083>it's not even the way people use bows in fucking TTRPGs, you don't volley fire your projectiles in the vague direction of the enemy by aiming up into the skyEven during the most packed in battles, archers typically took direct aim at targets. It's a waste of arrows to fire for effect like that.
>>93363792Literally anything associated with Tolkein. Stop being lazy and making inferior copies of his works and make something fresh. Innovate for fuck's sake.
>>93409785peak fashion
>>93369035You say that like it's a bad thing
>>93409785It's only relatively recently, and in the USA specifically, where having a dumpy appearance and paying no attention to your clothing is considered to be manly.
>>93369035>the weapon closest to carrying a mans testicles.that would be bolas, which literally translates as "balls"
>>93409785>>93415016Trying hard is so lame, amirite fellow goyim?
>>93414945This. Make all the races furries.
>>93415368Not what I said, but "Human but pointy ears", "human but short and alcoholic", "Human but short", and "elf but short" are boring.
>>93368898>The point>Your headStrength doesn't effect damage, it's not like you draw a bow halfway because you're only strong enough to draw it partially. If I can fire a 150 lbs bow, I don't do more damage firing a 50 lbs than someone who can only draw and fire a 50 lbs bow.
>>93369006In the ancient era this was true, Greek records indicate that slings outranged bows. Now of course those are different bows than longbows, composite bows, or recurve bows, so a longbow might be able to outrange a sling, but in the classical era the sling was the longest ranged personal weapon.
>>93415016Obsessed.
>>93390094I would just like to point out how you are a retard. That so called a prehistoric game literally takes place after humanity has largely died out, you can find ruins of current landmark structures. "I don't know what this thing is but I'm going to scream and cry about it!"
>>93415861Problem with unique races is the lack of art of them.
>>93363792Citing historical accuracy and realism when talking about shit that occupies a 500-800 year period of human history, while at the same time, ignoring everything about those periods of time that isn't swords or armor.
>>93364763I will not take part in your caving fetish, faggot. You've tried this before. It doesn't make any fucking sense as a place for adventurers to go or a thing for them to do on a regular basis.
>>93416424Tabletop RPGs are not a visual medium, you don't need art, just imagine it, if you can't imagine the hobby isn't for you.
>>93416480If you demonstrate the inability to critically think like that, being alive is not for you.
>>93364763>>93416447>caving is the line adventurers won't crossis it really this easy for a villain to have no one get their noses in their business?
>>93364763We're not going into caves because the caves are fun you absolute sped. We're going in because some ancient wizard had it hollowed out and using it as a base of operations. The cave we enter has shit inside or was the remains of some ruin or fell beast. No one's going in to find fucking geodes. You're a fucking retard.
>>93417532>entrance to base of operations requires cavingwhat now? is the ancient wizard getting away with it?
>>93416363>literally acktualleeAnd yet my description of it was sufficient for you to know what I'm talking about, fulfilling the purpose of the description.>cry about itYou are confusing 'stating an objective fact upon request' with 'crying', indicating serious mental retardation. Don't (you) me.
>>93416424see>>93416480But also learn to draw. It's what I did, even if I"m mediocre as shit at it, picrel are the fire ant people that replace dwarves in my setting as the "lives underground works the mines" race. They have a hive mind, and one of the major things they mine is an orange substance (haven't thought of a name for it but I'll think of one eventually) that is akin to napalm and they use it in their unique racial weapons which are flamethrowers.
>>93419356>picrelPretty cool, anon.
>>93363792All weapons should require DEX to hit and STR to deal damage. All casters should be MAD too. INT for spells known/prepared and spell slots/points. WIS for spell attack rolls and spell save DCs. CHA for spell damage, range, area, and duration.
>>93419356>not a visual mediumAnd you want to actively gimp your games to die on that hill? Actually stupid and have no clue about what visuals can bring to tabletop if you just want to throw that excuse. You have no eye for art whatsoever if you can't appreciate them.
>>93419700>CHA for spell damage, range, area, and duration.wut
>>93420290There was a feat that did that in 3.5 was there not? And if I remember right the Swashbuckler added your CHA bonus to your to hit pool in addition to Dex
>>93420290ntaRemember that charisma is not comeliness, it is an aspect of one's personality, including such things as attracting and commanding followers which implies a powerful personality and by extension the will to make things happen. In the early days of Modern English charism/charisma meant a "spiritual power given from god" and this is at the heart of modern charismatic churches and charismatic members of mainstream churches. Together these can be manipulating unseen forces.Why not Wis for these effects? Because then Cha is back to being a dump stat.
>>93420621I tend to explain CHA as gravitas.WIS and CHA have been woefully mismanaged in D&D.
>>93417446The only enemies you could have are troglodytes and little blind worms and things. A dragon or a liche isn't crawling around through holes in a cave. This means it's beneath their notice.
>>93363912really big and strong motherfuckers should be able to handle stronger bows than skinny twinks. this would give them improved damage-dealing potential at the very least and probably improved effective range as well
>>93419746They aren't needed if your ability to describe things is good enough. I'm running a Star Wars D6 game and outside of combat almost everything is me describing the area.Unshackle yourself from the idea that everything needs a map, that everything needs visual representation, and you'll become a better GM.
>>93419700Disagree.>Marksmanship and an appropriate skill for ranged weapons>Might and melee weapons for melee weapons>Fortitude and Unarmed Combat for Unarmed Weapons>Spellcraft and Arcane Arts for spellsI see no fucking reason why you should kneecap all the character options instead of just making all of them good.
>>93363792If the goal is "realism," then most weapons should have a Strength requirement to wield them efficiently, but then use the game's Dexterity stat for the actual to-hit rolls; or equivalent. Then, in most cases, the actual damage dealt should be somehow based on the over-all value rolled, and not a fixed Damage value from the weapon, or your Strength stat. Or maybe your Strength is applied, but only however much you have in excess of what the weapon requires to be wielded efficiently. Example: Longbow (SR 3) Character: Strength +4, Dexterity +3To Hit: 1d20 + 3 + Proff/Skill/etc On-Hit: Damage = To-Hit - Armor/Counter/etc + 1 (4 STR - 3SR)
>>93363792>Tropes in RPGs that need to dieNot even plate can stop arrows
>>93421544>I see no fucking reason why you should kneecap all the character optionsIf everyone is kneecapped, no one is kneecapped.>instead of just making all of them goodIf every ability score works at full effectiveness on its own, and receives no benefit from having other ability scores to support it, then there's no reason to make a character with a balanced distribution of abilities over one who is specialized. So no, you're not making every character option good.There should be a difference between characters who hit hard, those who hit often, those who do both but not as well as the prior two. Likewise, there should be spellcasters of every class who are versatile, who are reliable, or who have potent effects, or a compromise of these aspects.
>>93420290Charisma is force of personality, just as strength is the force of the body. If Strength lets you throw further and hit harder, then Charisma should do the same for magic.
>>93368898>Dex to hit and Str to damage thenThis has been the go-to design for most OSRs for years, now.
>>93421529What's necessary is not the same as what's desirable. You're insane if you find a picture for every random NPC.
>>93421889You're a faggot if you denounce solo and duet games
>>93422431Anyone who can't maintain a normal group is a colossal faggot That Guy. Fuck "solo RPGs" (which are not real RPGs, they're table rolling simulators), and that gay one on one shit.
>>93420676Use your imagination more, Anon.
>>93422786lmao way to project your insecurityMust be tough being a brainlet who can't figure out you can enjoy both those and group games at the same time
>>93423245>n-no u!Shut the fuck up nogames.
>>93423273>Anyone who can't maintain a normal group is a colossal faggot That GuyYou certainly weren't talking about me with this. So you pulled it out of your ass. And guess who your ass belongs to...
>>93417641just use stone to mud or some other stone transmutation spell
>>93423678>dude d&d!>just use a 5th level spelloh well, that would be one way to do it, incredibly slow, but doable.
>>93417532>No one's going in to find fucking geodessounds like a fun party idea>'The grand wizard wants you to go into a cave and find some pretty geodes'>'Are they magical?'>'No'>'Then why should we go in there in the first place? What does he need them for?'>'Well firstly, he pays you and second: he thinks they'd look pretty in his study, they'll fit in nicely next to the petunias'
>>93423744it's to seal him in
>>93421889Show me on the doll where the bard touched you.
>>93423881More like where the lady bard in D&D would not touch him.
>>93369566>If anything, dex to hit and str to actually fire the bow, without directly affecting the damage.GURPS does this at least if you use the Low-Tech rules
>>93363792Legolas was jacked.
>>93364000>>93420706Archery activates different muscle groups than most people use in their daily lives. You can easily have someone who has really strong traps and lats but is otherwise a physically unimposing person.
>>93391083That's because bows ARE womanly. In fact, ALL ranged weapons are womanly/cowardly.
>>93394606>>93395025>>93396263Retards. 40 pounds is enough to kill deer, wolves, and black bears. 50 for moose, elk, and bison. You don't need a lot of force to go through flesh with pointy metal. And 99.9% of warbows aren't piercing armor.
>>93396283Higher draw weights were more about longer range than heavier impact. Yes it did have heavier impacts at shorter range, but that wasn't the point. Likewise, most arrows were shot in an arc, which bleeds a lot of energy, then gravity restores it as the projectile approaches terminal velocity. Heavier projectiles let the arrow impart enough force after being arced.
>>93425668>he thinks you can lift 40 pounds without using Strength>he thinks 100 pound bows can't pierce armorjejWatch a few Tod Cutler tests, will you?
