>>93424790
>fighter has been killing people since he was a toddler
>still drops his sword 5% of the time

>anon cant grasp the concept of game mechanics

>>93424847
No, because the lore tie in for the mechanic is baffling. I am to believe that every wizard in the universe is so fundamentally short on memory that they can't remember how to toss a fireball at someone without daily homework?

>>93424790
As magic casters get higher level, magic spells should start going down in level extremely slowly. I don't mean fourth level spells reach cantrip, but something just about.

>>93424874
My personal compromise would be that the studying requirement should only apply to either low level wizards(say, below 4), or to very high level spells.

There is really no good reason a level 10 wizard wouldn't be able to recall a common level 1 spell on a whim realistically.

yes yes d&d is stupid we know can we move on now?

Obviously remembering magic isn’t the same as remembering normal information, as that doesn’t utilize the intricate spell mechanics.

>>93424790
>>Wizards forget their spells if they don't study yesterday, ummmm....just because OK!!
No, no. They forget their spells if they learn other spells in their place.
So, a wizard can remember the same spell for years without even looking at the spellbook, then one day he checks the spellbook to study a different spell and forgets the old one instantly.
Spellbook mechanics in d&d are so fucking retarded, the only ones that make some sense are the ritual caster feat and that one tomelock ritual casting invocation. But even for rituals, it's stupid that druids and clerics can't by default keep a book with notes so that they can ritual cast without having asked their deity/nature for the spell that morning.

>>93424790
>>93424868
It's because casting the spell removes its immediate brain-space presence, requiring it to be refilled. The training is conventionally to refer to writings to perform the steps to embed it there.

However, back in 3.X we had the Eidetic Wizard alternate class feature from Dragon that had the Wizard "fully" learn the spell book-independently (though still needing to prepare as normal) and the Spell Mastery feat that gave Intelligence modifier memorized spells (as a one-time deal).

>>93424935
It wasn't so stupid in the early days when it could reasonably be connected to Jack Vance's work, but the distortions just kept building up until no single explanation could make sense.

>>93424964
Pure 5eism, take a look at literally any version before 4th edition.

>>93424790
>>Wizards forget their spells if they don't study yesterday, ummmm....just because OK!!
NAME ONE GAME WHERE THIS HAPPENS, FAGGOT
CITE BOOK AND PAGE

>>93424868

This is an obvious troll thread, but I will play along.
Think of spells like imposing your will on reality.
The most similar experience for humans is 'lucid dreaming'
The key to lucid dreaming is remembering that you are in a dream.
In every new dream you have to remember anew that the reality around you can be changed.
It is much easier if you prepare in advance.
The only difference from reality is that such preparations are one time use.
This can be justified by saying that the date, time, location, the ebbs and flows of magic winds or tides, or the alignment of the stars must be accounted for.
Such long form calculations need to first be computed, then during sleep and meditation they become internalized in your subconscious, and finally released when you recall the "magic phrase" used to set off the prepared effect.
Besides being contrarian, is there something in this logic that is difficult for you to understand?

>>93424987
>Pure 5eism, take a look at literally any version before 4th edition.
I know, but vancian magic was equally retarded, and somehow felt more videogamey than actual videogames.

>>93424987
>It's because casting the spell removes its immediate brain-space presence, requiring it to be refilled. The training is conventionally to refer to writings to perform the steps to embed it there.
This is so stupid that it'd be better if they just admitted it's for game balance reasons.

>>93425050

The perfect metaphor for Vancian magic is the process of tying and untying knots.
Imagine an intricate slipknot that takes a long time to create in order to have the effect that you want.
But pull the ripcord and it comes undone, creating the specific effect that you wanted.
Your mind can only hold so many "knots" without fraying.
But you can replace the ones you don't need with new ones.
If this does not appeal to you, why not play a different class?
Personally I find it appealing, since limitations are good for fostering creativity.

>>93424790

The archetype of the Wizard is designed to appeal to the people who enjoy setting up intricate domino structures to produce a beautiful controlled avalanche.
Sure it's fun to see dominos fall down, but you wouldn't complain that it's stupid that reality forces you to set them up first, right?
You wouldn't complain that the domino structure is not reusable, and once it falls you have to set it up again, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lo6x4eulY9g

>>93424790
>I don't know how concept works or where it came from. Also I like to eat dicks all day.
>>93424935
If you were not retarded and underage you would know that D&D did not come up with this.
.
.
You dumb fucks need to read Dying Earth by Jack Vance

>>93425199
Vance was a homo

>>93425125
I do understand how Vancian magic works, it just doesn't appeal to me at all as a flavor explanation for something that's there just to be a balancing game mechanic.
>why not play a different class?
5e is the only ttrpg with players where I live, and I'm not going to play a dirty charisma caster. Might play cleric though, the praying for spell preparation feels stupid that wizard's.

>Personally I find it appealing, since limitations
To me, the lack of appeal has ZERO to do with vancian magic being limiting or not, but with it's flavor just feeling too nonsensical.

>>93425203
Yet he was much less of a faggot than you.

>>93424868
>No, because the lore tie in for the mechanic is baffling.
Mystra is autistic and made magic follow her rules, which are arbitrary and draconian. This is in lore why core D&D is the way it is. If you don't have the core gods or run your own setting ,there is no reason it should be this way and you are a huge pussy for not fixing it yourself. Wizards in almost any other system behave completely differently BECAUSE the lore of D&D is designed into the casters rules.

>>93425205

I studied Physics in college, and trust me, quantum superpositions feel plenty nonsensical.
But that doesn't stop us from understanding and using it for say atomic clocks on GPS satellites.

>>93425060
It made a lot more sense when it was dragging in distinct external "things" referred to in sufficient detail by the pages as to return them to you, which is part of the reason for the "cast" terminology. The TSR-period novels switched over to building up an "astral construct" that'd execute the spell with a few final steps, which explains the then-standard slot-by-slot prep fairly well but still doesn't explain the damned chart of how many slots of each level you get.

>>93425245
I also studied physics in college, your argument does nothing in favour of the flavor of vancian magic.

>>93425205

From the days of Alchemists the archetype of the Wizard has been the willingness to do the bizarre, obscure, esoteric, and arcane for Power.
If you want to make it work differently, then write alternative rules for /tg/ to critique, or give alternative explanations for why it works this way.

>>93425297
All I said was there are people who are willing to use the rules of reality for power, no matter how nonsensical it may seem.

You, on the other hand, are not saying anything at all, just empty complaining. If you don't want to talk, then why post the thread?

>>93425347
>You, on the other hand, are not saying anything at all, just empty complaining. If you don't want to talk, then why post the thread?
I didn't make the thread

>>93424868
>I am to believe that every wizard in the universe is so fundamentally short on memory that they can't remember how to toss a fireball at someone without daily homework?
No, you're to believe that Vancian Magic comes from Jack Vance's fiction and spells are semi-living entities that reside in a Wizard's brain and are literally lost when expelled, needing to be forcibly crammed back in again through preparation. Be thankful you can have as many spells in your head as you can in D&D, in Vance's works you're considered an exemplary wizard if you can fit just two or three.

>>93425522

I don't think that this person is comfortable with the concept of "preparation"
Probably too close to the idea of "hard work" which based on his lazy throwaway arguments he also despises.

So why the fuck would it be necessary to suck Vance's (dead) cock to play a wizard?
Plus most people nowadays play 5e, where the remaining bits of Vancian mechanics make even less sense than they did before.

>>93425592
>why the fuck would it be necessary to complain on /tg/ about not liking something?

>>93425582
>He can't just not like the things I like! He MUST be lazy and stupid.
Note that I'm not even the anon you're referring to.

>>93425607
>why would it even be necessary for 4chan to exist?

>>93424790
Finally get to reuse this

>>93425621

Who cares?
You still haven't contributed anything.
If there are multiple people you are even more worthless for not contributing.

>>93425637

We don't come back for the repetitive posts. We come to share our ideas. Since nobody wants to do that in this thread, I think it might as well get deleted.

>>93425658
>contributing
?
Do you think this is some sort of game design thread or something?

>>93425582
>I don't think that this person is comfortable with the concept of "preparation"
>Probably too close to the idea of "hard work" which based on his lazy throwaway arguments he also despises.
the entire reason the Sorcerer class exists is so people could play a spellcaster and not give a shit about preparation or even fictional hard work. it seems weird he wants to have his cake and eat it too, talking about how his 20 INT wizard shouldn't "forget" stuff when you can just play a sorcerer whose magic is in his blood and he can sleep 14 hours a day like a housecat and still be magical

>>93424790
This doesn't happen in any game or setting, and you'd know that if you knew any game or setting.

I'd ask you to try to not play D&Dogshit, but you don't play games.

>>93425699

Discussing the flavor and justifications for Vancian magic is the entire thread.
Anything else is pointless bickering.
Which of those sound closer to /tg/ as you want it to be?

>>93425725
>t. someone who plays 0 games and has the same number of brain cells.

>>93425699
>you think this is some sort of game design thread
it is now and you can't stop us
post your favorite metaphors for magic to spite the argumentative midwits
I'll start:
There are many metaphors for magic in fiction. Here are some common ones, including those you mentioned and others:

>Willpower warping reality
>Learning the language of creation
>Manipulating the threads of fate
>Channeling energy from other dimensions or planes
>Tapping into the elements making up existence
>Communing with spirits or deities
>Manipulating probability
>Bending the laws of physics
>Accessing a universal energy field
>Altering the fabric of space-time
>Harnessing the power of emotions or thoughts
>Manipulating life force or vital essence
>Accessing ancestral or genetic memory
>Harmonizing with nature's rhythms
>Unlocking hidden potential within oneself
>Wielding mathematical equations or symbols
>Manipulating music of the spheres
>Harnessing the power of true names
>Bending light and shadow
>Accessing parallel universes or alternate realities
>Manipulating the building blocks of reality (e.g., strings in string theory)
>Tapping into collective consciousness or unconscious
>Wielding the power of words or stories
>Manipulating quantum probabilities
>Channeling cosmic energies of celestial bodies

2024 bards feel more like wizards than wizards.
> Actual masters of magic since they're able to learn any spell they want.
> Can only forget spells by replacing them on level up, which is easier to flavor as truly forgetting them.
Normal people just view spellcasting as memorising chants and gestures, only utter autists care about the "create a magical construct in your brain" stuff that "somehow" in 5e is only valid for wizards but not for other casters.
Maybe spellbook flavor could still remain relevant by linking them to spells with very long casting time, or adding more variety to rituals (not only to their effects but also to their requirements).
Or actually implementing some way to create and modify spells, as UA tries to do so but failed due to utter incompetence at balancing.

Also, metamagic's flavor fits wizards way more than it even suited sorcerers. Sorcerers now can get super saiyan, and have more cool stuff from subclasses, improving that and giving metamagic to wizards could make them both suit their "class fantasy" better.

Tldr: wizards should just get spells known, metamagic, and keep the planning/preparation flavor linked to rituals rather than to construct and Alzheimer's mechanics.

>>93425872

Sure, metamagic fits the Wizards better conceptually, but a wizard with cheap or free metamagic is hard to balance against other classes.

>>93425934
Then don't make it cheap or free, duh

>>93424868
>No, because the lore tie in for the mechanic is baffling.
We had a thread about this a few months ago where people tried to explain how spell slots and spells per day work in the in-universe lore, and it turns out none of that is in any of the books. It's just not explained beyond saying
>A spell slot is a slot that a spell goes into
Or
>Magic works by doing magic to the magic stuff in the air

They don't even try to excuse that it's just a mechanical contrivance that exists because it's one of the pillars of D&D's brand identity.

>>93425959

What are you proposing then?

>>93425981
Changing casting from prepared to known and giving them metamagic would pretty much turn them into 2014 sorcerers, without the new things sorcerers are getting like mage rage or subclass spells.
So, the balance comes from having less spells and no easy way to change them. Maybe they could even get metamagic more slowly (less points, only one option at first, something like that).
But that gives space for the other things I mentioned such as the modify or create spell. and having the spellbook be used for only certain spells (such as ones with long casting times, as mentioned, or making more complex ritual casting mechanics).
Or subclass features. Diviner is fucking boring in that how it's defined by one feature, even if that feature is powerful. It could be nerfed (such as starting out with only one portent roll, gaining another at level 9 and another at level 17 or something) in exchange for more divination stuff.

>>93425970
>and it turns out none of that is in any of the books
>any
I'm gonna go ahead and assume your a newfie and promptly ignored every comment that pointed you towards previous editions.

>>93424790
>ummmm....just because OK!!
>>93424868
>that every wizard in the universe is so fundamentally short on memory

It's the goddess of Magic being a bitch and having localized mind-wipe built-in into every spells as an attempt to avoid the powertripping that happened to mage during the previous magical era - because that's the kind of retarded solution you get when you put a female in charge of engineering, even magical engineering.
Mages' brain and memory are perfectly fine, the need to re-learn spells is an active "fuck you" from their boss.

>>93424790
They don't forget spells they don't cast, they just can't prepare new ones.

Does anyone on this fucking board even play games?

>>93426193
>>and it turns out none of that is in any of the books
>>any
Different editions are different games.
If they're playing 5e and it's not in any 5e book, then it's not in any of the books.
You might as well tell them to go look for it in the Cyberpunk: Edgerunners sourcebook.

>>93426219
>Lore specific to the Forgotten Realms applies to every possible setting.

>>93426245
>Different editions are different games
That is objectively wrong and now I'm suspecting you weren't just introduced to the hobby with 5e but you have literally zero experience outside it.

>>93426252
OP asked for the reason. I'm giving a reason.
Feel free to give the Lore reason specific to all other settings.

>>93426284
Nah.
They are different games because they have different rules that often contradict each other.
They obviously do share tons of things in common, but they're obviously not the same system.
>Hurr if Iake negative assumptions about you, I win the discussion!

>>93424790
You don't study your spells you prepare them. The actual casting is simply the activation requirements that finish a ritual you did the night before.

>>93424790q
D&D wizards make more sense if you just treat them as complete retards that were given the power to use cheat codes.

>>93424868
That's not how it works. You can literally play a variant of Wizard called Eidetic Spellcaster.

>Unlike other wizards, you can see within your mind the intricate arcane symbols, words, and gestures that define your spells. Your photographic memory acts as your spellbook, inscribing the spells you know within your mind.

>You do not need a spellbook, either to record spells you know or to prepare known spells. You can learn spells normally, either through gaining levels in wizard or learning from other spellbooks, and you must pay all the normal costs for learning new spells (used instead in special incenses rather than inks), but you do not need to put them into a spellbook.

You still have to sleep and prepare them. Spells are a form of magical mathematical formula that causes effects in the real world. Also, your not remembering spells is explicitly because Mystra wants to limit magic. Some people are just built differently. Like how she banned 10th level spells, but you can still learn them with a feat. She's only a god.

FUCK Mystra.
Except not literally, because you'd end up with a million super diseases.

>>93425970
>and it turns out none of that is in any of the books.
As I told you then I will tell you now, fuck off, I'm not spoon-feeding you. You can extrapolate everything you need to know if you just read the material.

Wizards?
More like why-sucha-tard haha.
Even sorcerer and bards figure out their spells on their own and learn them for real while wizard faggots spent ages studying only to copy other people's works, but still need to keep cheat sheets around to remember the shit they copied.
And I'm only talking about fifth edition, I know other systems have wizards that don't feel like braindead idiots.

>>93424790
But that's wrong you retard
>Before setting out on an adventure with her companions, Mialee
pores over her spellbook and prepares two 1st-level spells (one for
being a 1st-level wizard and an additional one as her 1st-level bonus
spell for Intelligence 15) and three 0-level spells. (Arcane
spellcasters often call their 0-level spells “cantrips.”) From the spells
in her spellbook, she chooses charm person, sleep, detect magic (twice),
and light. While traveling, she and her party are attacked by gnoll
raiders, and she casts her sleep spell. After she and her companions
have dispatched the gnolls, she casts detect magic to see whether any
of the gnolls’ items are enchanted. (They’re not.) The party then
camps for the night in the wilderness. Come morning, Mialee can
once again prepare spells from her spellbook. She already has charm
person, detect magic (once), and light prepared from the day before.
She chooses to abandon her light spell and then prepare sleep, detect
magic, and ghost sound. It takes her a little over half an hour to
prepare these spells because they represent a little over half of her
daily capacity.
>Until she prepares spells from
her spellbook, the only spells a wizard has available to cast are the
ones that she already had prepared from the previous day and has
not yet used. During the study period, she chooses which spells to
prepare. The act of preparing a spell is actually the first step in
casting it. A spell is designed in such a way that it has an
interruption point near its end. This allows a wizard to cast most of
the spell ahead of time and finish when it’s needed, even if she is
under considerable pressure. Her spellbook serves as a guide to the
mental exercises she must perform to create the spell’s effect. If a
wizard already has spells prepared (from the previous day) that she
has not cast, she can abandon some or all of them to make room for
new spells.

>>93424790
Look, you read the spellbook. You spend 10 minutes per spell level preparing the spell so that when you need it you can use it immediately. It stays parked inside you as a little magical energy construct that dissolves into a spell effect that goes off when you complete the spell. it makes perfect sense.

>> INB4 No no, 5e.
oh. well, I can't fix retarded. Play better editions, or play better games.

>>93426756
>Referencing editions nobody cares about anymore
You're the retard, not OP.

>>93425239
D&D magic was a thing for 13 years before Forgotten Realms existed anywhere outside of Ed's rural Canadian house.

>>93426756
Fucking shit. Still fucked up the formatting. Copying text from pdfs is a bitch. The point is a Wizard preparing spells isn't "memorizing", it's the first parts of casting the spell so it only needs a little more to do when you "cast" it. And can retain spells between days

>>93426847
>The point is a Wizard preparing spells isn't "memorizing"
It is in 5e, and the 2024 book specifically includes a "Memorize spell" feature for wizards, confirming that 5e wizards are retards.

>>93424790
It's because the spell lives in your head and escapes when you cast it retard.

>>93424868
Read Jack Vance.

>>93424790
My favorite mechanic is assigning inventory weight to spells. Thats why Wizards dress lightly, carrying those spells around in their heads is exhausting.

>>93425592
If you want a different magic system use a different magic system. 3e offered a raw MP based alternative. spheres if you like that crap. the psionic system was also point based, and there's a comprehensive conversion document to use those rules for normal magic too. nevermind the spinoff d20 fantasy games and supplementary magic systems.

and that's before you look at other game systems that just have different types of magic systems right out of the box. GURPS has several, the Unisystem games have several versions. etc.
If you don't like the mechanics of 5e, play something else. They're not 'making 5e oldschool for the people who want something true to the setting', because 5e is not true to the setting. the people who wanted that left years ago and went back to 2e or 3e when it was clear 5e was never going to get better - if they got fooled at all. It's not for the OSR grogs. They're still playing some form of basic D&D or AD&D, and 5e's game design has little to appeal to them.

It's not our fault you insist on playing 5e and then bitching that it lacks the content you want, when other games are out there that you could play instead, one of which almost certainly does the thing you want.

>>93426829
NTA but
>Waah my game has shitty gameplay
>How dare you point out how previous editions and other games are better games.
What exactly do you want? You can't time travel back to 2012-2013 and make them make a different game. the people who made your shitty game all got shitcanned at Christmas and now theyre... outsourcing the new edition to freelancers or something I guess? I dunno. I won't be buying it either way. But seriously. What exactly are you hoping for? People to agree Hasbro fucked up a perfectly good magic system? you bet. its a bad game. I stopped wasting energy trying to like it in 2019.

>>93426193
>>93426603
If you have to point to out of print older editions which are not referenced or acknowledged by the newer, current edition, you have no fucking argument and it's why no one agrees with you. WotC had ample space to explain the weave and how magic works in-fiction, but they didn't. They had 10 fucking years and left only the barest flavor text and the assumption that no one cared, because their core customerbase doesn't actually read.

>>93425872
>in 5e
There's your problem. The game mechanics of the edition are tortured far away from any coherent fluff, turning something that wasn't supposed to be such into a pure game construct.

>>93426219
Doesn't need to be malicious, just needing external "ROMs" to reset the "RAM" after execution. You people are effectively insisting that programmers and engineers will ALWAYS be able to handle the entire process exclusively in their head. It simply is not the tradition's standard to compile the entire spell from scratch by memory.

>>93426245
>>93426347
>>93426829
>>93427090
The setting remains the same setting no matter the multimillion dollar corporation's insistence otherwise. They decided on default setting Faerun, therefor the Faerun novels from the TSR days on how magic works "below" the game abstractions remain canon, because they've not printed any content overriding it.

>>93426909
Take a look at the series of formulae and values governing the architecture of a basic residential house. The structural properties of the materials it's made of, the equations of how various forces interact with those properties, all the minutia of planning that went into ticky-tacky mass production.

Now imagine memorizing all of that down to the individual nail placement. That's what the standards you demand of Wizards look like in VERY basic architecture.

>wizard needs to carry around a spellbook because... HE JUST LE HAS TO
>he's not a novice retard that has to read the manual for everything because it's just a trope ok

>paladin has to read everything from a libram because it's.... LE EPIC TROPE
>no he can't be expected to commit the texts of his faith to memory, shut up we need to have le libram

>>93427276
Most of engineering TODAY works so vastly better referring to pre-calculated tables and schematics then adjusting to application that engineers are frequently not trained in the underlying processes needed to develop things from first principal to begin with.

Stop insisting that "they're educated in it" means "they have a total knowledge of the theory fit to do everything from the bottom up", because that is not how education has EVER worked.

>>93427370
And if you use those enough you do tend to memorize them. Hey, like 5e Wizards do at high levels! Seriously OP is complaining about nothing.

>>93427246
pretty sure they're getting away from Faerûn in 6e, or 5e 2024 electric boogaloo.

but yeah, per their licensing agreement with greenwood, the novels, comics, videogames, and older edition setting content is canon forever, unless they renegotiate their license, and they have not contacted Greenwood to do so.

>>93424790
ITT "Waaaaaaah Waaaah! Wizards aren't powerful enough. Waaaaaah! Vancian Casting is stupid!"
Then play a different game, retard
There are so many other games that arent Dee and Dee Fifth Edish

>>93425205
Sorcerer CHAds > Wizard INTcels
>party caster
>party face
>all around cool guy to hang out with
>ritual casting? Who needs it?

>>93427706
I can hardly hear you over that cock in your mouth

>>93425981
Wizard points

>>93427746
I'm not the retard who's playing a game system I dislike

>>93427775
NTA, but I do find it funny how many 5e 'fixes' are ultimately just reinventing some option or alternate rule from 3e.

I always saw it as you aren't memorizing the spell, you are casting most of it in advance and stopping right before the final part of the incantation. That mostly completed spell hangs around in your internal magic system for about a day or so before the stored energy starts to dissipate.

Why do you morons keep replying to troll threads?

>>93428126
Which is consistent with the fact that you don't actually forget the spell, just whatever it is you had to prepare to be able to cast it.

>>93426846
>lorelet implies D&D existed in 1966

>>93428724
First TSR publication officially using "The Forgotten Realms" was 1987's "The Bloodstone Wars", 13 years before which was indeed the year of D&D's first publication. Though "Bloodstone Pass" in 1985 is also part of the setting, that's still six years after your deadline.

Are you referring to Ed Greenwood's "The Dragon's Bestiary" article in Dragon #32 from December 1979 covering the Crawling Claw? That's a very nitpicky bit of retrospective resting on a single name of an INCREDIBLY minor character.

>>93427246
>The setting remains the same setting no matter the multimillion dollar corporation's insistence otherwise
Multi-Billion, but you're still wrong. The statement that 5e does not explain it's own setting or internal logic remains true. Everything published before 5e, even if it does provide those answers, is not part of 5e. Saying that the info is totally in the books and then explaining that it's not in the 5e books, it's in older books from a different edition means you are fucking wrong.

>>93424790
Fortunately for me, I don't have retard permanence.

>>93424790
>le… object permanence
Why do people feel so compelled to use psych terms they don’t fully understand? I don’t get it. It’s not even an exact science… why would you want to use the terminology at all if you don’t have to? Is it mild autism mixed with edginess where people think they’re going to be some kind of mental manipulator? Please explain yourself.

>>93424790
In which system do wizards forget their spells? I'm not familiar with any system in which that's how it works for them.
If you're implying that's how it works in the D&D / Pathfinder games, then you are absolutely and very profoundly incorrect about a lot of things. On the chance that it is in fact what you are referring to, you need to learn what Vancian magic is and how it works. Hint: it is NOT a matter of memorizing and forgetting things.

>>93428937
Editions within the same setting presume everything before it remains canon unless otherwise stipulated. Duh

>>93425060
It's not balanced, either, though. It's just frustrating, obnoxious and stupid. It's still done because it's a sacred cow. That is to say, that it's become a matter of brand identity and autistic imbeciles couldn't handle their dysfunctional emotions if it were discarded in favor of improvement.

>>93427090
Nobody gives a fuck about 5e. I'm not going to argue the lore logistics of it because I don't find 5e interesting. If a newer edition hasn't covered it, default to older lore. It's not stated in 3.5 that Asmodeus's palace is guarded by 66 Pit Fiends, but in an older edition it did. Since there's nothing contradicting that, there's 66 Pit Fiends in 3.5 who personally protecting him.

>>93426846
Not that other anon, but I understand the lore reason magic is weird and arbitrary is because of Mystra. Spellslots aren't an abstraction, it's how she forces magic to work, and level 9 is literally an artificial cap. I'll openly admit I don't have an explanation for why D&D magic worked this way before forgotten realms (and frankly don't remember much about AD&D magic as I played a fighter and was quite young), or other D&D settings for that matter, but I will also be the first to say "I have great dislike for D&D and it's magic system"." My players know the next game I run will be a different system, but this time I ran with 5e because many of them are new to role playing.

A Wizard that doesn't forget spells is just a Sorcerer.

>>93429121
Or a Magewright if you're in Eberron. Intelligence-based full-progression NPC spellcaster, gimmick is that they get the Spell Mastery feat a bunch instead of learning spells normally.

>musician plays the same songs for 30 years
>still has to rehearse before concerts
wtf

>>93429208
>having to remember a few phrases in draconic every day is the same as an hour long performance

>>93424790
I have played a D&D 3,5ed many years ago and I have.creatwd an elf monk. He was 700 years old and 400 years he studied martiall arts, yet due to the fact that he was lvl 1 he couldn't kill a pigeon. I have told my DM that this is bullshit, how come after 400 years of living in a temple learning how to fight I can be so retardadly weak, that's totally unrealistic. DM came with an answer, "one day your nemesis fought dirty and you hit your head on stone floor and lost your memory". -That seems probable, I thought to myself. Ok, nvm, the campaign has started, we end up in some tavern or something and some rich dude came in and was asking for help, cause some thief stole his beloved horse that was appointed to a race, where the prize was a whole village. -I can find your horse sir. I have answered his call. -Splendid, how do they call you by name elf? Asked the noble. -I'm recognised by the name Marcus Hardcock sir. "WTF YOU CAN'T CALL YOURSELF LOKE THAT ITS UNREALISTIC BULLSHIT" yelled the DM. -Aaaw, ok, I can't walk by the name MARCUS HARDCOCK, but spending 400 years on nothing but martial arts and being unable to kill a fly is TOTALLY realistic; fuck this gay game and fuck you guys.
Yeah, D&D seemd for me kinda gay from that day.

>>93429032
Again: Literally not in any of the books.

>>93429067
>Nobody gives a fuck about 5e.
Then shut the fuck up instead of trying to reach deep inside your cavernous asshole to find some flimsy justification for arguing that "this is not written in the 5e books" is somehow wrong because of stuff printed in non-5e books, midwit.

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>>93428840
Why no, I would not be referring to the 1979 Dec issue. I would be referring to the two month earlier Oct issue.
>Curst by Ed Greenwood.
Curst were and are a part of the Realms and thus the Realms existed outside of his "rural Canadian house" from 1979. Greenwood's bestiary entries and magic items mostly seem to be about the Realms so it's not just one name in one entry. You claiming it's just one name in one entry comes across as very insincere and deliberately deceptive. Crawling Claws appear in MC3 the first FR MC. Gaunds (issue 46) are in MC11 also for FR. Tomb Tappers (issue 41) are described in Drizzt's Guide to the Underworld and statted in Netheril Empire of Magic. Laeral (a wand is described in issue 39) was one of the Nine and became one of the Seven Sisters who had an entire source book about them.

The first actual game content in the 1987's FR box set Cyclopedia is The Calendar of Harptos. The special days are a copy-and-paste job (well, they might not have had digital files so it might not have been copy-and-paste, they might have to retype it, certainly it had to be re-typeset for printing, wouldn't want you to get nitpicky) from issue 47. In that issue he says the calendar was tailored for his home campaign and he name drops that as Forgotten Realms. In 1981. About 7 years from 1974. Not 13 years.

>That's a very nitpicky bit of retrospective resting on a single name of an INCREDIBLY minor character.
Well, as you've seen it didn't rest on a single name and your misapprehension that it did is corrected here but even had it rested on that single name it would have been enough. Nitpicking, btw, is finding fault with an insignificant detail but when that detail is the start of a chain demonstrating a substantial error that ignores pages of evidence over years of issues it's not insignificant. Nitpicking would be pointing out that the issue you cited, number 32, wasn't "Dragon", the magazine was titled "The Dragon" until issue 39.

>>93429246
>pronounces the spell slightly wrong
>bursts into inextinguishable magic flames and accidentally sends his naked soul into Abyss
It's always good to be twice sure

>>93424868
>No, because the lore tie in for the mechanic is baffling.
So what anon, in 2e, wizards artificially aged when they learned a new spell level

>>93424790
>>93424868
DnD magic is explicitly based on Jack Vance's books (hence why it's called Vancian magic). In those books casting any spell required a long and complex ritual that would be far too complicated to perform in the middle of battle, so what a wizard would do was completely almost the whole ritual beforehand and just do the finishing steps in combat. However, he'd have to keep every detail of the ritual perfectly memorized which was difficult enough that most wizards could only have one spell ready to cast at a given time. Obviously they changed that somewhat in DnD because only having your character cast 1 spell per day would not be fun for the player, but the same principle still applies. When a wizard "memorizes" spells what he's actually doing is complete most of the steps needed to cast the spells and commits them to memory, and when casting those spells in combat he just finishes the spells. The reason he can't recast fireball when out of spell slots isn't because he's forgotten how to, but because he'd have to go through several hours of preparation in order to get to the point where he can fireball gain (reflected in the rules by needing a long rest before restoring spent spell slots).

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>>93424790
>OP didn't read Appendix N so cannot reconcile a mechanic with the apt inspiration concept

>>93424847
>Anon reduces everything as "it's just a game bro"

You deserve each other, lie in the brainrot hell of your own creation.

>>93424790
have you tried playing something other than Pathfinder and DnD?

>>93427741
>>ritual casting? Who needs it?
In 2024, all classes get ritual casting. Wizards have the better version in that they can ritual cast shit from their spellbook, but they're still mogged by tomelock's ritual invocation, who are the best ritual casters overall.

>>93427706
>ITT "Waaaaaaah Waaaah! Wizards aren't powerful enough.
It has zero to do with power, everything with lore and flavor being the dumbest out of all 5e classes.

>>93430822
That's an explanation that almost works for wizards, but no other casters.

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>>93424802
>IT'S THE BLOOD'S FAULT! IT MAKES MY SWORD SLIP!

>>93433372
wizards are fags, so they get punished (flavor-wise) by making their magic harder to cast.
Ofc mechanically they're powerful, but in-world they're trash.

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>>93424790
Wizards "forgetting" spells after they cast them is the most retarded shit imaginable, and I hate everyone who gives Jack Vance a pass on this because they read him when they were 13 or 14.

Imagine if every time you solved a math equation, you forgot how to solve that math equation. It makes zero fucking sense.

>>93424802
>drops his sword 5% of the time
It's never stated that he drops it. It could be that he hit the enemy at an angle that forced his hand, causing him to drop it. There is no such leniency for imagination with magic, conversely.

>>93433615
You don't understand how Vancian magic works then.

Mages prepare spells ahead of time. They do not memorize them. No. No they do not.

By "prepare", we mean that they actually perform the ritual to cast the spell. The casting of a spell is a long, tedious, painstaking process that takes minutes at a time to perform. The "casting" you are getting confused about is just the last word and gesture involved in a ritual that was almost completed earlier that morning. The ritual itself was too long and complicated to possibly do in combat, but the last word and gesture to complete the ritual only takes a few seconds.

In other words, in Vancian magic, a spell is like a grenade which takes a lot of work to manufacture and assemble. Then when the mage "casts" the spell, what they're actually doing is just pulling the pin and throwing the grenade. The truth is that the actual "casting" of the spell is the entire process of manufacturing and assembling the grenade - as well the last little part where the pin is pulled. Without pulling the pin, it'll never explode.

And of course, you're not forgetting the grenade after you blew it up. You just need to assemble a new one if you want to throw another one.

But you're not gonna sit down and build a new grenade from scratch in a few seconds while you're dodging swords and arrows.

That's how Vancian magic works. You have to do a looooong ritual to cast any spell, and it's only the last word and gesture that completes the ritual which is actually performed in combat. After which, you must perform another long lengthy ritual to prepare another such spell. This is why it takes clerics and wizards in D&D and Pathfinder like an hour every day to prepare their spells.

>>93433372
It's the origin of the concept and it worked for all casters at the time. It's only later editions that began using the gamist mechanics as an abstraction in an effort to maintain a unified design framework while still introducing different gameplay styles. It didn't work well originally and it definitely doesn't work well anymore.

But the reason it was kept was because it's a sacred cow and if they had moved on from it, they'd have lost their marketshare to GURPS which was more popular around the turn of the century. When Sorcerers came out, there was outrage (rightly) because they completely broke all the rules that bound all the other casters. They were only begrudgingly accepted because they still used "slots" and this fooled idiots into thinking it was "the same just a little different".

And the irony of when the 3.5 version of psionics came out, there was so much outrage... even though in a mechanical sense, psions were more similar to sorcerers than sorcerers ever were to wizards or clerics. Psions were not accepted. Why? Not because of balance. But because they didn't use the word "slots" to describe their mechanics. They "weren't Vancian" and therefore were forbidden.

Warlocks caused a similar outrage but by then there had been a huge influx of video gamers and WotC had spent years prepping their playerbase for an evolution into 4e which was intended to be a video game. And that's before we get into the more subjective reasons of Warlock being perceived as "cool" because they're edgy.

>>93424868
>>93425970
That's a 5e issue, other editions explain it perfectly. Prepping a spell is casting it to 99% completion, then the caster "holds" it. When they "cast" the spell, what they're doing is finishing casting the spell, then the next day when they recover they can pre-cast 99% of the spell again.

>>93424790
It's 'cause WotC hamhanded the lore.

Wizards aren't intrinsicly magical so they have to perform a ritual to pre-cast their spells beforehand. Casting from spell slots is just releasing them from storage.

>>93433372
That's 'cause Wizards don't have magic inside them. They have to create magic by engineering magical rituals.

By contrast, everyone else just channels magic they already have. Clerics, Paladins. and Warlocks have a Patron pumping them full of magic. Sorcerors have bodies that naturally make magic. Druids channel all of nature while bards...are apparently so good at music the music becomes magical.
>>93433615
Wizards forgetting spells is actually new. Rather, the wizard used to have to pick all his spells for that day in advanced.

>>93434603
>That's a 5e issue, other editions explain it perfectly
Yes, that is the point being made.

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>>93434270
>>93435071
You're wrong, and it's you who doesn't know how Vancian magic works. Here's the rules, plain as day, in the 2nd Edition Player Handbook. Literally says the spell is wiped from his mind, until he studies and memorizes that spell again, hence the need for a spell book.

>>93435197
If you were any good at reading comprehension you'd immediately recognize that they are explaining the process to you in a way that allows your "they memorize spells!!!!" belief to be compatible with how it's actually working according to Jack Vance.

You can tell because the entire passage you showed is about how the spell's energy is released by casting the spell which wipes its pattern from the caster's mind where it was held... In other words, it's exactly as we explained to you, they just used the word "memorize" because that's what you were looking for.

Go read Jack Vance's novels.

>>93433372
>That's an explanation that almost works for wizards, but no other casters
Clerics and Druids literally pray for their spells to either their patron deity or nature directly. They're only given so much magic in a day, more powerful divine magic users are granted more spells in response to their prayers, up to performing literal miracles on the spot.
Sorcerers are fluffwise innate spellcasters, and they run out of magic in a day the same way monsters with innate spellcasting/spell-like abilities do, it needs time to recharge, same reason a dragon has to wait a while in between breath weapon uses but on a longer timescale. Warlocks recharge on a short-rest schedule in the first place and don't even have the same spellcasting feature as other casters, pact magic is something separate and weird even in universe.

>>93435153
>>93434603
Have you tried not using D&D?

>>93429743
You insufferable fucking faggots keep saying yourselves that it's not in your gay little books. Stop pretending you're anything other than annoying queerbait. You don't so much about the hobby you disregard everything that came before. I care so much that I disregard all that bad that came after a certain point. We are not the same. Get out of my hobby, you fucking tourist.

>>93435925
the truly weird ones are bards: not innately magic, yet for all practical purposes they're smarter than wizards, since they can figure out magic on their own rather than copying it from others.
Eldritch knights and arcane tricksters are very similar to wizards lore-wise, but for some odd reason they just don't use spellbooks.
5e wizards just have some odd form of brain damage, possible a punishment from the gods of magic due to their sheer audacity.

>>93436108
don't care so*

>>93436108
lmao

>>93436126
Spelldancers are the weirdest. Assuming we're not counting monsters like Hags.
>>93436135
I'm Jonny DnD, and I say fuck off.

>>93436108
You were given multiple clarifications that 5e, explicitly, was the system without a printed explanation and instead tried to frame agreeing with the original point as an argument for why the thing you just stated was wrong anyways. Fuck, you're pathetic.

>>93436185
Nobody gives a fuck about your queer little system, you inane faggot. We have this thread every few months, and every time I will tell you to go fuck yourself. You "care" so much about DnD you don't even acknowledge other editions existed. You're a fucking tourist, and I hope you die in a car crash. When you're dying, bleeding out on the pavement, I hope you remember this thread.

>>93424868
3rd ed had a stab at this. In that edition every spell was a lengthy and complex ritual, but with a breakpoint at the very end so you could 'pause' casting and hold it indefinitely. Your skill with magic, expressed by your intelligence and level, determined how many of these you could keep going at once.

>>93435924
It literally says, "The mental patterns are lost until the wizard studies and memorizes that spell again".

>THAT SPELL
>AGAIN

I have better reading comprehension than you. Stop trying to pretend to be retarded please. It's not my fault if the writers fucked up the wording.

Vancian magic is dumb and boring.
5e magic is a mess, with only wizard using a version of Vancian magic that has been beyond mutilated and makes even less sense than before.

>>93436251
That's why you must prepare "that spell"... multiple times... if you want to cast... "that spell"... again. This is pretty simple, basic stuff, anon. How old are you?

>>93436233
You're still doing it. This isn't even about defending 5e, but you have to convince yourself it is to save face. Any excuse you can come up with to avoid admitting your jumped to a stupid conclusion and then sperged out.

>>93436299
Yes, which is why the spell system is retarded. It's literally written on paper verbatim that YOU MEMORIZE THE SPELLS, THE SPELLS ARE WIPED FROM YOUR MEMORY AFTER CASTING, AND THEN YOU MUST STUDY AND LEARN THEM AGAIN.

Quit being a fucking moron please.

>>93424790
What system?

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>hurdurdur
>how does thing work
>and don't give me any of that established nonsense
>and don't tell me you can't because the edition is shit
>5e MUST be as good as previous editions
>no, I'm not a sucker
>and don't tell me I can't understand because I'm a casual
>>93436359
I will take you apart with a handsaw. All 5e players must fucking hang.

>>93436364
So you're just trolling at this point because you haven't taken into account anything that anyone has been trying to tell you all along. Trolling is against the posting rules outside of /b/. Bye.

>>93436364
>>93436268
based

>>93436430
>>93436468
retards

>>93436430
>I will take you apart with a handsaw. All 5e players must fucking hang.
It's so funny how you can see a direct criticism of 5e, proceed to argue about it for several days, and then when you inevitably agree with the original point, you proceed to shit yourself repeatedly because you're too fucking dumb to stop posting.

>>93436591
I haven't admitted to shit. You wanted to know how it worked and people told you, while you claim they didn't because you're a dumbass. 5eniggers all get the rope. Not one of you will be spared. Too stupid to realize you're cattle. I bet you play card games, faggot. Leave my fucking board.
>>93436572
Dead men.

>>93435934
Why? 3.5 is great.

>>93436651
Keep pretending things happened differently if you want, but it's all still here in the thread. You think ignoring the point and screeching about 5e makes you look like you have a point, but all it's doing is reiterating that you're a huge faggot who has the emotional regulation of a crack baby.

>>93436745
Passion and violence are based. You shouldn't legally be allowed to publicly hold an opinion but then deny someone dueling you to the death over it unless you recant your position. I will personally slay every 5e'er in the days to come. You people are not interesting or amusing, you're the same smug liberal assholes who destroy all the world to get a rise out of people and then act offended when people want to put you in barrel filled with liquid cement. You are denied, now and forever. Read. The fucking. Older. Material. Tourist.

>>93436815
Do you really need it explained to you? Are you genuinely not understanding?

>>93436846
I'm not explaining anything to you, retard. You are denied.

>>93436862
Not me. You. You are clearly very confused.

>>93437000
You are a troll and a liar, and one day you will reap what you have sown.

5e wizards are dumb.
Boomers will keep whining that the world was perfect when they were 13 years old and everything just keeps getting worse.
Bards will keep being based.

>>93437020
Are you illiterate?

>>93437040
Are you suicidal?

>>93437089
Sad little man. The only person you can hurt is yourself.

Have some pity: Pointing out that 5e was lacking in-fiction explanations for how magic works, what the weave is, how spell slots function, and so on, was not meant to be a complaint against The Forgotten Realms and previous editions. You should have understood that from the start, but instead you chose idiocy. It was a means of pointing out 5e's incompetent writing and lack of dedication to their own design goals and attempts to make some kind of ultimate, cohesive version of "the world's greatest roleplaying game", which went on to waste 10 years without ever fully addressing the colossal gaps in lore and logic that were left in the game to exist as things that exist as they do because they are the rules for the game, which are only there because previous editions have them. Sacred cows and brand identity signifiers. Things that had reasons to be the way they were in other editions, but WotC could not muster the focus to even briefly cover, ever, because 5e is bad, and modern WotC is staffed entirely by retards.

Your impotent sperg rage blinded you to the obvious criticism being presented because you felt that you would impress people by citing older editions and external material. And when it became obvious that you had failed to make a coherent argument, you threw a tantrum and now you've convinced anyone bored enough to stop by and read this thread that you're a retarded faggot.

>>93424790
That description of spell memorization hasn't been accurate since at least 2nd edition. Maybe even earlier, but I don't know previous editions as well. In 2e, memorization was the holding of a spell's magical energy in your mind, i.e. casting a spell takes too much effort to use from scratch during combat, so you have to prepare to cast it ahead of time. That's why 5e refers to spell preparation instead, because the terminology was misleading. Also, 5e uses spell slots as non-fungible mana, so isn't even remotely vancian anymore.

All of these anti-D&D bait threads basically boil down to "here's something that isn't even in D&D. Why is D&D so bad?"

>>93434328
Psionics did have some extremely strong powers, and the fact they had mana instead of spell slots made them capable of abusing them. It wasn't "just" because they didn't use slots.

>>93436251
Unless you suffer from aphantasia, I don't know how you can't understand the difference between a mental pattern and a memory.

>>93436268
It was never more than inspired by Vance. Calling it Vancian was always misleading.

>>93430717
what? need details

>>93436744
Well. I admit, I use PF1e when I'm in the mood for D&D-style sword-and-sorcery dungeonpunk. It's not perfect. But it's better than anything branded by WotC that came after, and it's not even a close comparison.

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>>93430822
Don't know precisely what edition you're describing but it sounds very ... modern. BX/ BECMI MU and clerics must be well rested taking just one hour to memorise all their allowed spells; there's no mention of pre-casting. A cleric reversing a spell just says it backwards when casting, no previous backwards praying. In AD&D it's 15 minutes per spell level but I don't know anyone who enforced that for long. A 6th level MU would take 3.5 hours for his full spell allotment and, at the same XP, a 6th level cleric would take 3.75 hours. Again, just memorising, no mention of pre-casting.

If you happen to read Vance, and I wouldn't recommend that you do, you'll find that spells are just memorised as in when Turjan,
>stared down at the characters and they burned with an urgent power, pressing off the page as if frantic to leave the dark solitude of the book.
>Turjan closed the book, forcing the spell back into oblivion.
Oblivion means forgotten as well as non-existent. While Vance doesn't describe much about preparing spells in that series I recall no instance where he stated or even implied pre-casting (but correct me if I'm wrong)

Gygax himself, in the last issue of The Strategic Review, says,
>The psychic per se would play little part in the basic magic system, but a corollary, mnemonics, would.
>...
>Most spells were also envisioned as containing a slight somatic and/or material component, whether in the preparation of a small packet of magical or ordinary compounds to be used when the spell was spoken or as various gestures to be made when the enchantment was uttered.
Mnemonics of course means to do with memory.

This pre-casting mumbo-jumbo is very modern and at odds with the writings of Vance and Gygax.

It should be well-noted that Gygax wrote '"Vancian"' not 'Vancian', note the scare quotes. Modern folk screaming that D&D magic is not Vancian are not making the divine revelation they think they are, Gygax himself pointed this out before they were born.

>>93437354
All the more reason to kill that sacred cow.

>>93435197
>To draw on magical energy, the wizard must shape specific mental patterns in his mind. He uses his spell books to force his mind through mental exercises, preparing it to hold the final, twisting patterns.
Sounds less like typical memorization and more constant imagination.

>>93438071
It's just a tediously low-level description of how brains form and imprint engrams within their structures.

>>93437925
of course the fags who pretend old editions are superior never even played old editions
5e is clunky as hell due to all the sacred cows, but at least there are people playing it (sort of, since pretty much everyone houserules lots of shit)

>>93434328
>Psions were not accepted. Why? Not because of balance. But because they didn't use the word "slots" to describe their mechanics.

It's strange that you think that's the reason that they weren't accepted when power points were used very merrily by everyone who played 2e Dark Sun. We didn't care that they didn't use spell slots, I don't recall even using the term spell slot before vidya came out.

I'd say it is more like things like psionicists, I hate the 3e name so no need to tell me I'm not using the right word, being cheap versions of sorcerers with much more limited and less useful power selection. DND expressly treated psionics as magic's poor cousin as the default version lets psionic powers be dispelled by dispel magic and magic be dispelled by negate psionic. Even though it's not supposed to be magic thematically mechanically it was treated as just another kind of magic.

The six disciplines were tied to one each of the six stats meaning that there were useful and desirable psionic powers across the board. This mostly eliminated you having a dump stat and moreso than most classes you needed high ability scores everywhere or there were powers you wanted but were going to suck at. As well, every psionicist was a de facto specialist as there were powers you could only access if you had chosen that power's discipline as your primary discipline. This wasn't like their being some feat in a prestige class, this was the base class.

Obviously some developer woke up to that need every stat high mistake as 3.5 changed it so that Int became the sole stat but that was yafbtb. While 3.5 was an improvement, having been burnt by 3.0 people were probably gun-shy due to psionicists, only ever at best a tier 2 class, being shot in the foot by WOTC and earning a lot of disdain for an already less popular class just nailed the coffin.

>>93438216
>sort of, since pretty much everyone houserules lots
That's exactly how it's supposed to be. It's called being creative and tailoring a game to how you like it. Deny house rules and you'd be on the slippery slope to saying people can't modify recipes to cook food how they like or even add a little seasoning at the table.

>who pretend old editions are superior
I didn't say that old was superior, I wrote how interpreting "Vancian" magic as involving pre-casting is a long way from what "Vancian" is. I don't like that interpretation but I didn't say old was superior.

>but at least there are people playing it
Cool. There are people smoking tobacco and shooting crack.

>>93438491
>That's exactly how it's supposed to be. It's called being creative and tailoring a game to how you like it. Deny house rules and you'd be on the slippery slope to saying people can't modify recipes to cook food how they like or even add a little seasoning at the table.

>you can only either homebrew a lot or be a complete RAW autist. Anything else is literally impossible!

>>93438491
>I didn't say that old was superior, I wrote how interpreting "Vancian" magic as involving pre-casting is a long way from what "Vancian" is. I don't like that interpretation but I didn't say old was superior.
I dind't mean you, I meant that your post proved those other guys wrong.

>Cool. There are people smoking tobacco and shooting crack.
dumb "argument"
any ttrpg is just a game to waste time with friends. Associating the ones you don't like with obviously harmful habits is silly.

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>>93424790
>Wizard is level 20, litterally can annihilate entire city.
>Still limited to a handful of "make the floor greasy" per day.
>Can't tweak the parameters of a spell, whether he's level 3 or 20, his fireball will explode the exact same way with the exact same radius.

Why, yes, Vancian magic is utterly retarded.

>>93437252
I'm literally not reading all that. Cope.

>Modular dynamic spellcasting.
>You have a number of spells and a pool of mana. You can cast any spell in its base form any number of time as long as you fulfill the requirements and you can customize your spell on the fly by paying additional mana.
Fireball in its base form casts a weak fire projectile. Pay 1 more mana to add an explosive effect that also hurts the enemies in the vicinity of your target. Pay 1 more mana to curve the trajectory of the fireball and hit an enemy behind a cover. Pay X mana to increase the heat of the ball and the damage by factor X. Pay 1 more mana to dilute the heat of the fireball into a continuous very weak stream to, say, warm the water in a bathtub or cook something.

Imo it should be the go to for any rpg and the Vancian system feels extremely weird and gamey in the way it is implemented in D&D and other derivative.

>>93438586
Concession accepted. You are a clown.

>>93438280
So you were one of the three people who played Dark Sun and you think you can speak for the majority of the community... in spite of the fact that some of us lived through those times and we personally remember it even if some of the forums are now gone. Begone.

>>93424790
He's renewing his contracts with bound spirits for what spells he wants them to provide him that day as they work off their spell points of debt.

This is how Vancian Magic actually works btw.

>>93439228
>5e
>Vancian
>any d&d
>true Vancian magic
nah
but anyway in 5e it'd be extra silly since that's just a warlock with more steps

>>93438598
>Magic system shouldn't be gamey
>Make a system that's even more gamey

>>93424790
>OP has never read the 1e DMG the thread
Aw shit, here we go again...

first of all it’s not forgotten it’s like some other shit, plus scientist don’t even know the ramifications of it’s vancian magic yet

>>93439084
Wow, so much butthurt emanating from one person at one time over something so little.

>So you were one of the three people who played Dark Sun and you think you can speak for the majority of the community...
Evidently I can because the other two people of those three were playing DS with me and they agreed. By your count the fourth guy in my group of the time was asleep or watching tv or something.

>>93438598
There's literally 30+ RPG's with this EXACT system.

>>93440340
Can you give me names? I'm looking for such magic systems.

>>93443314
lol anon was full of shit

>>93424790
IDK how modern D&D is doing it but in OG Vancian casting, "preparing" a spell was actively holding the concept in your head in a holding pattern in preparation for releasing it on command. It was like twisting your brain into a yoga pose and holding it there, in tension, all day. Learning how to do this at all took years and years of practice, and doing it for multiple spells at a time was incredibly difficult. That's why it takes so much practice to learn magic and why even very powerful wizards can only keep a few spells locked and loaded at a time. They never "forget" their spells.

There was a huge difference between being able to read magic versus actually twisting your brain in such a way as to cast a spell on a given day. It's like the difference between knowing the things that go into tightrope walking and actually walking a tightrope. The knowing part's easy, the doing's hard.

>>93424790
Gameplay generally takes precedence over logic or actual roleplaying in table top RPGs. They're games first and anything story or RP based in a distant third and fourth.

>>93449066
Not op and i don't have issues with vancian magic (well, i have for the 5e version of it) but
>Gameplay generally takes precedence over logic or actual roleplaying in table top RPGs
doesn't excuse the vancian mechanic as standalone, you can surely figure a multitude of different solutions for handling magic (that are inspired by different sources of fiction) that don't feel contrived as the vancian/slots one (that needs prior knowledge in order to be understood) and still end with a perfectly functional game.

>>93427246
>The setting remains the same setting no matter the multimillion dollar corporation's insistence otherwise. They decided on default setting Faerun, therefor the Faerun novels from the TSR days on how magic works "below" the game abstractions remain canon, because they've not printed any content overriding it.
Faerûn straight up had entire world-shaking events in the lore to explain why the rules changed - the Time of Troubles had Bhaal dying to explain why Assassin wasn't a class anymore in 2e, Vecna's stuff in the transition to 2e to 3e, the Spellplague between 3e and 4e, and so on.
All that stuff is still canon, but magic doesn't work like it used to.