Where are the Dunedain Clones?>Tolkien Elfs are everywhere>Tolkien dwarves are everywhere>Tolken Orcs are everywhere>Tolkien Hobbits are everywhere>The interesting Demi-superhumans who are heirs to a lost kingdom.... no where to be foundjust seems odd they dont have the wider influence even though it seems like Middle earth buffs in general love Numinorean shit.
>>93428765Racist outdated concept tbqh, elves have replaced them and more nuanced takes on them have been done in the form of tieflings.
>>93428821half decent bait, I almost respect it.
>>93428765>Tolkien Elfs are everywhereThey're really not. People just kinda ignored everything else and made elves smug and punchable for some reason.>Tolken Orcs are everywhereOnce again, not really. There's very little in common between the Orks and Uruk-hai and the typical Ork seen in D&D.
>>93428861>They're really notthey are, even if they dont try to go 1 to 1 and mostly just use the bare tropes of.
>>93428765Ever heard of Atlanteans?>>93428886Way to show you don't read.
>>93428765High Men was a concept for a while but never took off. Idk whyToo Aryan-coded?
>>93428907Weird, cause I read the silmarillion, Hobbit and LotR, as well as older fiction like the big three of weird tales, jack vance, and looked through a lot of the late 70s early 80s rpgs.And from that, Its pretty evident that the popular fantasy styles of dwarf elf and orc in particular took heavy inspiration from Tolkien's depictions of them.>Ever heard of Atlanteans?Inspiration on the Numinoreans definetly, but the whole wondering to reclaim their lost birthright thing is not so much Atlantis.
>>93428765I think Mystara kinda had something like that with the Alphasian Ruling families. But I think it was kinda obscure lore and not really a player race or even a faction thing.
>>93428765They're just humans+. They're what people who think elves are boring actually are.
>>93428765In a game setting (and for the autistic even in a literary setting) presenting a race that is just "other race, but strictly better" tends to cause butthurt. You can view more or less exactly what you described with Variant Humans.
>>93428974Sure kid.
>>93428765You mean rangers?
>>93428953>Too Aryan-coded?I suspect as much. If high humans were included in a setting they would immediately be pegged as racist unless they were coded as non white as possible which could be very funny
>>93428765ttrpgs mostly having fantasy races be little more than slightly altered humans leaves little room for the concept of High Men, ie men who are closer to the divine/fey/magic etc. Hence the concept gets squeezed out.Source: I made it the fuck up
>>93430267Just make them roman or greek.
>>93428765>>93430870ACKS does this.
>>93428765Astartes.
>>93428953It failed to take off well before that. A lot of old settings have some kind of lost Atlantis with people descended from it but in a lot of cases they're elves or humanoid-precursors. One of the first things that Tolkien-knockoffs started removing or challenging was the idea that the nobility is ordained by heaven and is inherently morally correct, that just didn't sit well with anyone, even with Tolkien it was meant as a shout-out to an earlier form of storytelling and not as an accurate reflection of the human condition. There's a more trend towards multi-racial fantasy Europe, as if a European fantasy world populated by white people is inherently bad for some reason, but that doesn't explain why Dunedain-ripoffs never caught on in the first place.
>>93428953>>93430267Here is your high men
>>93428765>>Tolkien Elfs are everywherenah, elves nowadays have almost nothing to do with tolkien elves
>>93428953Age of Wonders originally had High Men in addition to humans, elves, dwarves etc but they were basically angels and were renamed Archons pretty quickly.
>>93428765>What are Valyriansbiggest fantasy franchise around currently, too
>>93428765Put them in your games, and they'll be there for you to enjoy.Put them in your games, and they'll have a wide influence in them.
>>93428765I was inspired by the meme that ogres are "dire-humans" to run them as the degenerate descendants of a race of "high-men" gone wrong.
>>93431949Dragonlance ogres are kinda like this
>>93428765Poul Anderson's Broken Sword elves > Tolkien's elves
>>93431949I actually like this idea a lot
>>93428953Because theyre basically just elves, which are the more immediately recognizable and distinct/interesting option. Its not that you dont have your !atlanteans or whatever, its that theyre just not human because by the standards of fantasy theyre enough to be entirely their own thing, whether that be elves or tieflings or aasimar or whatever
>>93432116Thanks, I'll look into this.>>93432245My players are currently looking for ogre relics in a vast cyclopean hall to prevent a catastrophe.
>>93431062>>What are ValyriansAtlanteans/Melniboneans
>>93431032He be high mon.
>>93432396>My players are currently looking for ogre relics in a vast cyclopean hall to prevent a catastrophe.In the setting im writing its giants, although my take on giants is basically ogres so its a moot point I guess. But the idea itself is present in nearly all fantasy, theres always some ancient greater power now lost to time, its remnants a degenerated few thin in blood and glory. Theyre just not usually human now (or playable)
>>93428861>People just kinda ignored everything else and made elves smug and punchable for some reason.That's just the Elves of Mirkwood
>>93430954Is another case of of hack writers having 0 imagination and these characters being too Aryan as others have said.
>>93428765>The interesting Demi-superhumans who are heirs to a lost kingdomAtlanteans?
>>93434001>and these characters being too AryanAnon the elves of your typical fantasy setting are roughly 20x as aryan as the atlanteans (because theyre just atlanteans on steroids).The reason the dunedain/high men/atlanteans failed as their own race is that theyre just humans larping as elves, theyre too close to two other things to stand on their own and as such were forgotten relative to more memorable and instantly striking races.
>>93430133>>93432245>Because theyre basically just elves They are not fey people separated from man and mortal living, but how men deal with great legacies. they are more about lineage and both living up to the greatness and not succumbing to the follys of thier ancestors. “you are isildur’s heir, not isildur himself”. They are much more heirs of Rome or charlemagne or something to that effect instead of mystical timeless entities.>>93430954>Inherent moral correctnessthey are not though. the whole schtick is that most of them died in numinor for betraying their oaths. a big piece of LotR is Isildur’s inability to destroy the one ring and Aragorn not wanting to be a repeat of that. And much of the history of gondor is about the folly of pride over reasonable compromise like not letting a half numinorian on the throne. Its not even fundementaly genetic either, allthough thats a part of it, The Numinorien people where just various tribes of men who fought alongside the elves in the first age and were rewarded for that and became a people from that.I always had a soft spot for them. being the hiers of greatness who try to balance respecting their past without repeating it. rather than whole sale traditionalists or whole sale break aways. The struggle and tension of treasuring your blood and birthright without being chained by it.One of my favorite characters was a far descendent of Blackmoor in Mystara and it was one of my favorites to play cause of that tension and dynamic.
>>93434387You have a soul.
>>93434387>They are not fey people separated from man and mortal livingNo, theyre simply the former masters of the world, the architects of glories long past and now the remnants of a power that has faded from the world, thin in blood and glory compared to what they once were. And in modern fantasy? Thats what elves are, the fey aspect, their nigh angelic and ethereal nature? Thats - in moderl fantasy anyways - a distant second to their status as the !atlanteans or !romans of the world, the ancient empire in whos ruins the current setting takes place and upon whos bones the current order rose. That beat about the descendants of the past seeking to restore their former glories? Thats the elves (often the evil ones). >but thats not how it was in tolkienBut it was, the elves were the heirs to glory long gone as much as the numenoreans, as chained by the sin and might of their ancestors (or themselves, being ageless) as any man. They didnt get the triumphant revivalism but that's irrelevant, theirs is still ultimately a story about legacy.
>>93434349>Anon the elves of your typical fantasy setting are roughly 20x as aryan as the atlanteansNo, they aren't. As been stated multiple times in the thread, Tolkien Elves have nothing to do with your typical fantasy elves either. You could say that actual Tolkien Elves are too Aryan and that's why their poor imitations suck so much. They're only vaguely replicated because of marketability and lack of imagination on behalf of poor writers and game designers.
>>93428765Unironically too racist to be commercially viable. You'd have multiple steins and bergs writing articles about you, stores wouldn't sell your stuff etc
>>93431032>ayo lil' niggaz you ain't gotta bow down n shit
>>93434001Dumbass.>>93434387>they are not though. the whole schtick is that most of them died in numinor for betraying their oaths.They are though. The whole schtick is that the survivors have survived yet-another purity test. Much like when Morgoth conquered the East, and their ancestors were the first to flee, thus proving their purity. Then they proved it again by fleeing Numenor. Yea, Isildor fell, and that just proves that even the greatest and most noble can fail (because it's the same Isildor who sacrificed himself to save a shoot of the tree and was healed by said tree). Yea, Denethor was overmastered by despair when he tried to match wills with Sauron, but that just meant he was better than the fallen-angel Saruman who was subverted to Sauron's cause. Their whole purpose was to be like-men-but-better, so as to rule over men, that's kind of boring in the long run. The full story of Numenor is more interesting, but only if you actually show the full story of Numenor, as far as Lord of the Rings is concerned the Dunedain were defined by their superiority and that's boring. Tolkien-inspired stories tend to preserve their basic role but give it to elves (or else they subvert it and give it to Melniboneans), which makes sense, since elves are already an ancient civilization serving as mentors to the humans. It's possible that this conversation has gotten off on the wrong foot, since Tolkien never specifically intended to tell stories in the 3rd age, the 3rd age emerged organically from the stories he'd already laid out. So it may be accurate to say that the Numenorians of other stories are the humans who act nobly and thus earn a golden-age for their descendants (even when that golden age is bound to end eventually).
>>93434850>No, they aren'tYes, they are.
>>93434408thanks, thats my goal in life.>>93434646>>93435083idk. it feels to me that elves are much more closely tied to supernatural forces of some kind. Magic, the land, etc. While Numinoreans, and whatever else fits in that trope sphere, is much more about a legacy of rule type thing.
>>93434850>>93431052>Bow wielding keen eyed graceful roughly human sized creatures with some deep connection to magic and/or nature doesn't have anything to do with Tolkien's elvesUhhuh Ok.Just cause other settings dont follow Tolkien's specific cosmology doesn't mean his shit didn't start the typical fantasy elf archetype.
>>93436398>is much more about a legacy of rule type thing.Yea, thats elves. Theyre the ancient empire which ruled the world until (event) and was eventually replaced by the later (human more often than not) powers in the region and whatever else.
>>93436398>idk. it feels to me that elves are much more closely tied to supernatural forces of some kind. Magic, the land, etc. While Numinoreans, and whatever else fits in that trope sphere, is much more about a legacy of rule type thing.Sure, and a legacy of technology, and former political dominion, "defined by their superiority" is oversimplifying. I think that the connotations for an ancient empire of elves is very different from an ancient empire of high-level humans, the former are more like angels while the latter is more like Rome.
>>93436562Except the former empire of elves is often the !rome of the setting, the ancient far-reaching power whos technology and culture shapes the world long after its fall.
>>93428765I think >>93428821 is taking the piss but tieflings as remnants of a nation that have been cast down from their greater historical prominence kinda works, especially in the 4e fluff.Looking at my unfortunately D&D coded knowledge, most of the Human+ options do seem to be Upgrades from standard humans rather than historically better and degenerated. >Illumians.Magic augmented humans.>ElansPsionically augmented humans.>Rilkans, Skarns, AzurinsIncarnum Augmented humans.The Book of Vile Darkness did have the Vashar, but that's more a prototype failure than an early civilization of greater humans, though they might call themselves as such.>>93430900Brings up a more sci-fantasy option, but again it's an improvement from base rather than falling to current status.
>>93431062You're not wrong, but I don't really see them, or Melniboneans, or Dunedain etc popping up much in ttrpgs, compared to just normal humans + fantasy races.
Half Elves fill the gap in D&D.Paladins but also sleep spell resistance.
>>93436491Hack writers poorly ripping off Tolkien races but that aren't actually similar to the original source is precisely what many people here are saying these 'elves' are.
>>93428765Second apocalypse series literally has the Dunyain who are exactly this
>>93428765Dunedain and Aragorn are literally the entire reason Half-Elves exist as a ubiquitous option in fantasy. Yeah, they're not actually half-elf, it's a lot thinner than that and has diluted over generations, but it's still the same "High Human/Human++/Best of Both Worlds" shit with Half-Elves being the ubermensch in most modern fantasy RPGs with all the benefits of being a humie but longer lifespan and added elf beauty and skill on top. They're a nephilim equivalent essentially, they're human but with a fancy bloodline claim to being probably better than the other poors, and that's essentially how Tolkien used them because he literally self-inserted as Beren the Elf-fucker to the point he wrote their goddamn erotic LARP titles on his and his wife's tombstones. The more elf blood you have in you the better you are in middle earth because Tolkien wrote the fictional elvish language to write love poems for his wife who he imagined had pointy ears while breeding her. That's all there is to it.
>>93438220>Tolkien wrote the fictional elvish language to write love poems for his wife who he imagined had pointy ears while breeding herbased gigachad
>>93436963the point was that its the origin. not that the off-shots of the origin are good or not. which really isn’t important to the current conversation.
>>93436917>>93438220>half elfnot a bad point mechanics wise.Though I feel conceptually half elves in DnD and shit often dont have their own distinct cultural thing, its just when any half breed from humanxelf pops out. unlike how elves have their flowing almost natural like structures dwarves have their geomometric shapes, hobbits have their quaint homes, and numinoreans have their proud white walled cities.I guess the Bretons of Elder scrolls have their own schtick tho.like you mentioned, numinorians arent stricktly half elf, hell, its only in their high king lineage from Baren and Luthian that they have any elf in them at all. If I remember, most of their greater gifts like long life and stuff come straight from the Valar, not really cause of any blood relation with elves. Although a big part of their culture is being elf friends.
>>93428765Rolemaster has High-men as a distinct race
I just don't see the point. Most fantasy settings already overload on human look-alike races, what is the use in having an actual identical but stronger human that is not human? It just brings to mind Marvelslop and how it has loads upon loads of humans but actually they are different and have an entirely different name, origin, and powers, but all still look and act nigh identical to humans outside whatever powers they have.
Tieflings are just coomer bait
>>93431032>Bikebegon, the Dindudain
>>93431032Emphasis on "high".
>>93428821Why do the emotionless say "nuanced" when they use analogies instead?>>93428841>>93436741Soon you'll understand the ramifications of the likes of >>93428821 turning normies into faux-redpilled faggots who don't understand what the metaphor was originally representing.
>>93428861>They're really not. People just kinda ignored everything else and made elves smug and punchable for some reason.It's the industry. Normies and bankers don't understand the Catholic notion of magnanimity, so they call it "arrogance", and redditors unable to function in a society refer to rules as "huffing farts". Combine the two and you have the fake elves /tg/ talks about.>>93428953Practical magnanimity, grandeur, the modern man hates it because it makes him feel inadequate. That's why they're pushing body positivity.>>93434387>the folly of prideYou have found the reason why the big money industry doesn't publish high-humans,
if you want to be so good why don't you make a good character instead of relying on a race option?lol nerds and self-improvent, like water and oil.
>>93433826More like Smirkwood, amirite?
>>93428765>>93428953
>>93441717what does the loincloth length mean?
>>93438440>its the originThe origin of 99% of trashy elves aren't Tolkien but D&D. Because modern writers are all lazy tards who don't read books.
>high men
>>93441717>40shit
>>93428765how would you make them mechanically distinct from other races without make them overpowered /needing level adjustment ?
>>93430237>>93428765D&D which was just stealing everything from LoTR, had rangers, who are directly inspired by Aragorn. Of course it's not very recognizable nowadays, but what is?
>>93445990>stealing everything from LoTRThat's not Three Hearts and Three Lions.. And Dying Earth, and a few more besides. LoTR was a minor influence at best
>>93446033>minorNo. No one claims it's the only influence, but get real.
>>93446056Halflings, Rangers, Balrogs, and Orcs. That's it. The elves are 3H3L elves. You are seriously overestimating its influence. Go read the things in Appendix N
>>93445955balancing is for chumps.Howeverbeit've, if you need it, +1 to str, +1 wis, +2 int based skills (Arcana, history, med, etc), -2 to mind control effects.
>>93428765The closest there is are the Aasimar and the Tieflings in DND. Concept is something that requires more explanation and lore, rather than just a simple idea or visual you lift. Elves, dwarves, and orcs are all concepts that existed before Tolkien and were extant words. Dunedain is an invention by the author, and requires very explicit backstory and lore that is not immediately grabbing on a superficial level compared to pretty pointy eared people, short hairy muscle men, and ugly, brutish monsters.
>>93430954It probably requires a lot of very specific lore and backstory, but it doesn't have a concrete detail or visual that people inherently latch to.
>>93448176The big fortress-like ships are a nice distinct detail that I always wanted to see more of. But yea, that's first-age Numenorians in all their splendor, by the time of LoTR it's like "Okay, the noble humans has a special name for themselves, what else is new".
