Henlo frens.Asking for some halp regarding the Wrestling Proficiency rules, the PDF available on the archive site has some glitches and on page 59 (64 on the PDF), it says that when held a opponent loses 1/4 of his total combat pool dice, but later in the book on page 62 (67 on the PDF) it says a held enemy loses 1/2 of his total combat pool dice. So the question is, which page is right? Thanks in advance.PS: using this PDF version of the rule book:https://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel
Another question:What's the ATN one should use when using the Wrestling proficiency to execute a maneuver of the proficiency?
>>93833245>>93834814I am going with the information posted here:https://web.archive.org/web/20151102104046/http://knight.burrowowl.net/doku.php?id=rules:grappleHeld condition results in held character getting their total combat pool dice reduced by 1/2 (50%), and the ATN for executing Wrestling maneuvers is 5.
>>93833245>From the errata Question: Page 62: CP penalty for being "held" is 1/2 CP but on Page 59 it states that it's 1/4 instead.Answer: These are referring to different things. Being "held" when fighting at the sword is worse than when fighting with your hands and feet. When "held" weapon proficiencies are at 1/2 and bare-handed or dagger stuff is at -1/4.My own addition: Basically, a "Grapple" in a sword fight isn't the same thing as a Wrestling match. When you're in a normal fight, say Longsword VS Longsword, the "Grapple" Maneuver is used to (a) throw or (b) pin. The throw works as written, dealing falling damage (which ignores AV and TO). The Pin either results in a "Pin" or a "Hold'. A MoS of 4+ means you "Pin" them. 1-3 means you "Hold" them. A "Pin" has the same effect regardless of the style of combat (-3/4 CP, but It's written as "3A" in the pdf I'm using, so weird typo I guess). A "Hold" is either -1/2 CP, or -1/4 CP. -1/2 CP for weapon proficiencies. -1/4 CP for Wrestling Proficiency. How you transition from a simple "Grapple" Maneuver into using the Wrestling Proficiency isn't really explicitly laid out as it should be pretty intuitive.>I'm held? So -1/2 to my CP?>Yep>I'm gonna drop my sword and switch to Wrestling.>Okay, that's a -1/2 CP penalty instead.Whether or not you let someone keep holding a big weapon like a longsword and initiate Grapple Maneuver is up to you and I recommend just going off intuition. You could increase the Activation Cost of the Grapple and Wrestling actions if you want>>93834814The scuffed text in the core book says TN is equal to opponents ST + 1 for every 10lbs of body mass they have over you. The Flower of Battle supplement doesn't actually specify, but that link you posted says to use the ATN and DTN of Fists. Idk how I feel about that since it means having a ST, size, or mass advantage over your opponent doesn't actually matter in Wrestling which is where you think it'd matter most.
>>93838998>>Okay, that's a -1/2 CP penalty instead.I'm retarded. should be >Okay, that's a -1/4 CP penalty instead.
>>93838998FOB says that instead of using the mass and ST equation for advantage (in the form of imposing a higher TN on opponent), just compare ST+TO and for each 2 steps or difference, the loser in the comparison gets - 1 die to his rolls Wrestling rolls, this is on page 35 (40 in the PDF inside a grey box called "Optional Rule: Size modifiers". PDF for Flower of Battle here:https://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel-flower-of-battleAlso, the TNs for various different offensive and defensive options while wrestling are specified on the descriptions of the options themselves (on the Flower of Battle, starting at pg 33 (38 on PDF)) and a table on FOB pg 36 (41 PDF). Under the FOB's overhauled wrestling system, the opposing characters start the wrestling mini-game standing up in a clinch, and then the mini-game only becomes a ground game if some of the parties throws the foe into the ground and chooses to go down into the ground with them foe (or fails to keep standing if he chooses to try to keep standing while throwing the opponent). Being on the ground changes some of the TNs for the defensive options, makes it so breaking limbs require trapping the limb first, makes throws impossible, and gives a dice cost bonus for the trapping offensive action (trapping basically replaces the "held" and "pined" states by determining exactly what becomes trapped while 2 foes wrestle). Also note that under the FOB new rules for Wrestling, there is no more "held" state, nor "pined" state, wrestling becomes a process where when you get into the clinch as the attacker (either from using wrestling as an offensive or defensive maneuver, or by reversing an already established clinch and flipping roles from defender to attacker) you can either choose to try to throw, trap limbs, break limbs (or choke opponent), or strike with either fist, leg, headbutt or a small dagger sized weapon. It's worth reading the whole session starting pg 33/38 to pg 38/43 on FOB.
>>93838998>that link you posted says to use the ATN and DTN of FistsThat's for trying to get into a clinch by using a grapple maneuver (ATN) and trying to avoid getting put into a clinch (DTN).
>>93840374>and trying to avoid getting put into a clinch (DTN).Or for when trying to get the attacker role when the foe as the attacker uses grappling maneuver and you as the defender want to get into the clinch instead of avoiding it (you declare grappling as your defensive maneuver, pay the activation cost and assign dice to it).
>>93833245Is this system any good? I have a few historical games In the works and I was having trouble deciding on wether to use the cyberpunk system or this one
>>93840374>>93840407Let's get autistic for a moment here and try to annalize this according to FOB rules (activation cost for offensive maneuver grappling is the first value presented on TROS core book):>Scenario 1 (both empty handed):-Initiative is red/white-Attacker (Alex, aka A) uses grappling maneuver (paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob, aka B) chooses to get into clinch and uses grappling maneuver to try gaining control of the clinch (to become the attacker once clinch gets established), so he uses grappling maneuver (pays activation cost, assigns dice, uses DTN 6).NOTE: since both are empty handed, no range penalties.>Scenario 2 (Alex is wielding a dagger (range H), Bob is empty handed):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker uses grappling maneuver (paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use an evasion to avoid the clinch entirely, so he can use any evasion he likes (a duck and weave evasion (ATN 9, unless using open-hand proficiency or a progressive combat school (ATN 7), a partial evasion (ATN 7), or a full evasion (ATN 4, only possible if evader haven't attacked in the previous exchange, which Bob hadn't)NOTE: since both are empty handed, no range penalties.
>>93840531OP here:I have been testing it and making my own adjustments (like not using any magic nor the spiritual attributes mechanics, as well as getting rid of the TO (toughness) attribute all together and replace it with ST (strength) attribute, and designing a character advancement mechanic from the ground up to make PCs gain XP for each attribute and skill/profeciency from training and using their skills/proficiencies (instead of just spending spiritual attributes to raise mental and physical attributes and skills/proficiencies)), IMHO it's the best melee combat system ever, but it needs some tweaking for my liking. Other combat systems make my autism sad, this one makes my autism happy but frustrated, so the tweaks only make me happier and less frustrated.If you decide to use it you really want to get all the published books (4 total) and make a list of what optional rules you will be using (some replace the original rules all together, like the armor system in the Flower of Battle book, which is the 2nd book), and write down in your notes where to find them (on what book and what pages) so you can make sense out of it (or at least this is required of me to be able to make sense out of it).IMHO is 100% worth the effort and time to figure out and master, since it's simply the best melee combat system there is.Here are the 4 books:https://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steelhttps://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel-flower-of-battlehttps://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel-of-beasts-and-menhttps://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel-companion
>>93840531Yes.
>>93840579Oops, I made a mistake, pg 36/41 on FOB says small weapons can be used to strike while in the clinch, but I don't think that means one can use the grappling offensive maneuver to enter a clinch while wielding a weapon. So Alex would have to drop his dagger before using the grappling maneuver, but since they where at H range, no range penalties on that scenario.>Scenario 3 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is empty handed):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker drops sax, uses grappling maneuver (applying the range penalty of -1 to his combat pool dice (since grappling occurs at H range and they are at S range), paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use an evasion to avoid the clinch entirely, so he can use any evasion he likes (a duck and weave evasion (ATN 9, unless using open-hand proficiency or a progressive combat school (ATN 7), a partial evasion (ATN 7), or a full evasion (ATN 4, only possible if evader haven't attacked in the previous exchange, which Bob hadn't).>Scenario 4 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is wielding a halberd (range VL):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker drops sax, uses grappling maneuver (applying the range penalty of -4 to his combat pool dice (since grappling occurs at H range and they are at VL range), paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use an evasion to avoid the clinch entirely, so he can use any evasion he likes (a duck and weave evasion (ATN 9, unless using open-hand proficiency or a progressive combat school (ATN 7), a partial evasion (ATN 7), or a full evasion (ATN 4, only possible if evader haven't attacked in the previous exchange, which Bob hadn't).
>>93840668>t. refuses to elaborate and leaves chad
>>93840719>Scenario 5 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is wielding a halberd (range VL):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker drops sax, uses grappling maneuver (applying the range penalty of -4 to his combat pool dice (since grappling occurs at H range and they are at VL range), paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob) chooses to drop his halberd and get into the clinch and uses grappling maneuver to try gaining control of the clinch, so he uses grappling maneuver (applies the range penalty of -4 to his combat pool dice, pays activation cost for the maneuver, assigns dice, uses DTN 6).
>>93840754>Scenario 6 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is wielding a halberd (range VL):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker drops sax, uses grappling maneuver (applying the range penalty of -4 to his combat pool dice (since grappling occurs at H range and they are at VL range), paying activation cost and assigning dice to the attack) to try to get into a clinch (he uses ATN 5).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use a parry against the incoming hands (randomly decide right or left, unless the circumstances make it obvious), and as with standard parries the weapon's DTN is used (DTN 8 in the case of the halberd). If the parry is successful damage is dealt to the parried limb as if the defense were an attack and the defender Bob gains initiative along with the range advantage (they stay in VL range).
>>93840531Remember to use the weapons lists and stats from the 2nd book "Flower of Battle", much more options and more balanced stats. The armor system on FOB is also better.
>>93840818>Scenario 7 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is empty handed:-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker (Alex) choses to make a cut against Bob, he allocates dice for the attack and uses the cut ATN value of his weapon for the attack (6 in the case of the sax).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use the grappling maneuver as his defense, so he applies the range penalty of -1 to his combat pool dice (since grappling occurs at H range and they are at S range), pays the activation cost and assigns dice to his defense, his ATN is 6.-Bob wins the previous exchange with his grapple defense (adding his margin of success from that defense to his combat pool for this new exchange), so now on this 2nd exchange of the 1st round, he is now the attacker (has the initiative) and Alex is now the defender. Since Alex still has his sax on his right hand, Bob elects to use a trapping of the right arm against Alex (if he succeeds Alex cannot use that arm to attack or defend, and has is combat pool reduced by 1/2 due to his primary hand being trapped). Alex elects to try to steal the initiative to use his sax to attack Bob (if he does not steal the initiative, or fails to do so, his sax wielding arm will get trapped before the attack can hit Bob) from within the clinch (since it is a S range weapon, he can use it within the clinch).
>>93840531Combat is good, but a little autismo if you try to memorise everything, magic is cool but complex and takes a few rereads to understand properly, and the Spiritual Attributes mechanic is a cool melding of character motivation and mechanics. The combat kind of takes a while to "get," but once you do it's pretty cool. I didn't read the setting at all, but I will probably pluck it for ideas. I have some gripes like with the skill system, but overall it's a good system that I'm hacking up and using for my own purposes.the number of dice you roll is determined by the Attribute being tested and not the Skill. meaning your maximum Margin of Success isn't determined by your level of skill, but rather your raw Attributes.
>>93840987>Scenario 8 (Alex is wielding a sax (range S), Bob is wielding a broad dagger (range S):-Initiative is red (Alex)/white (Bob)-Attacker (Alex) choses to make a cut against Bob, he allocates dice for the attack and uses the cut ATN value of his weapon for the attack (6 in the case of the sax).-Defender (Bob) chooses to use the grappling maneuver as his defense, so he pays the activation cost and assigns dice to his defense, his DTN is 6 (as per fist's DTN, which is used when trying to get into the clinch, despite him wielding a weapon).NOTE: unlike when using grappling as an offensive maneuver to try to get into the clinch, Bob can keep a S ranged weapon or smaller on his hands while using grappling as a defensive maneuver (pg 34/39 on FOB). This allows Bob to enter the clinch with his S ranged weapon as the attacker if he wins this defense.-Bob wins the previous exchange with his grapple defense (adding his margin of success from that defense to his combat pool for this new exchange), so now on this 2nd exchange of the 1st round, he is now the attacker (has the initiative) and Alex is now the defender. Alex still has his sax on his right hand, and Bob has his broad dagger on his right hand. Since Bob has the initiative (is the attacker now), unless Alex manages to steal the initiative, Bob's actions will take effect first, so Bob decides to attack Alex from within the clinch with his Dagger (his ATN is 7, as per the weapon's ATN).
>>93841085>your maximum Margin of Success isn't determined by your level of skill, but rather your raw AttributesNot if you use the grandmaster skill levels mechanics for skills, it's on the "Companion" book pg 30 (36 on the PDF):"Although Master is technically the highest level obtainable in a skill, it should always be possible to get just a little bit better at whatever it is that you do best. As such, itʼs possible to train your skills even higher than Master – the Grandmaster levels. At Grandmaster, the TN of the skill check remains the same (TN4) but you gain one extra die in your pool to roll it whenever you make a check against that skill. At second rank Grandmaster, you gain two extra dice, and so on.First Rank Grandmaster(TN4 + 1 extra die)Second Rank Grandmaster (TN4 + 2 extra dice)Third Rank Grandmaster (TN4 + 3 extra dice)(and so on)"https://archive.org/details/riddle-of-steel-companion
