>Accidentally travels to a fishman city>Immediately says you should genocide everyone>Another one asks if that's necessary, isn't it possible that some aren't evil>Immediately says noIs this really lawful good behavior?
I don't think Sahaugin are ever good. Keldorn certainly didn't have any particular reason to think that a sahaugin could be good. Also you posted this exact thread a few weeks ago.
Is remaking the same thread over and over lawful good behavior? Isn't it possible that some aren't dog shit?
Why are you spamming the board with /v/ shit? What do you get out of this?
>>93891607As we discussed last time, yes. Fishmen are ontologically evil, so any act against them is neutral at worst.Come up with a new topic or drink bleach.>>93891678Videogames based on /tg/ content has always been /tg/ relevant, and preferable to your setting threads and various OSR splinter threads that always devolve into bitching about OSR.You are a newfag and a retard. you can fix the former with time. Hopefully you can fix the latter as well.
Why do you keep remaking this thread?
>>93891860You're a moron. It's the exact same thread, same image, same subject, that he drops and then abandons every couple weeks.
>>93891906there are people for whom getting hot red (you)s is literally the only form of social contact
Life isn't black and white why are there so many people that can't see shades of grey it? There could be good hero fishmen. Killing any living thing is evil. They live in fish town. Leave them alone in fish town. Imagine going gin the ocean and killing sharks just because they exist? Pure evil
>>93891607Yes.You have been told this before.There are other ways to be Lawful Good.This is a perfectly acceptable one.Keldorn is peak paladin, genuinely one of the best depictions in game fiction./thread
>>93892628>Killing any living thing is evilMy body is constantly waging an unrelenting genocide against microbes. Does this make me too wreathed in perpetual evil to bother trying to be good?
>>93892628>There could be good hero fishmenNope.>Killing any living thing is evil.Wrong.
>>93892832>Nope.why not, they aren't fiends who are innately evil
>>93892883If you look at their monster entry it says "100% Chaotic Evil". Pretty clear cut.
>>93892628>Life isn't black and whiteIt is in old DnD
>>93893006uh, no, it says lawful evil, but since it's not always lawful evil that means there's exceptions
>>93893100It's a video game. We can objectively know that they were without exception Lawful Evil with a simple command.
>>93892628Nobody is swallowing your J*wish moral ambiguity pill anymore because there's fuckers in real life that turned out to be more cartoonishly evil than anything you see in fiction.
>>93891607>Is this really lawful good behavior?I wouldn't know, I play games.
>>93891860Quests were literally rules lite TTRPGs played in the format of a group controlling one player character, and preferable to threads whose topics are only tangentially related to tabletop games, and magic/gods threads with no discussion that get bumped every ~12 hours.You are a newfag and a retard. You can fix the former with time. Hopefully you can fix the latter as well.
>>93891607he is the one with detect evil. do as he says or he might use it on you.
>>93892628>Imagine going gin the ocean and killing sharks just because they existThat's the dream. All aquatic life is an abomination and must die. We can't boil the oceans fast enough.
>>93891607Sahuagin are incapable of good, so kill 'em all.
we are NOT breaking out of samsara with this thread
>>93895115The removal of Quests was a poorly thought out knee-jerk reaction to flooding, but it was preferable to what always happens to /tg/ when we have too many active janitors.Please actually be an oldfag instead of learning everything you know about the board from whatever 1d4chan archive is active this week.
>>93895097wow, does playing games make you retarded? is that why you constantly just say you play games without adding anything to the discussion?
>>93895592It's generous of you to assume he actually plays.
>>93895592Playing games allows you to see that alignment has nothing to do with games, actually.
>>93896835fuck you for making a claim that i completely agree with but using it for nogames shitposting
>>93892628Life isn't gray though, why can't you see the clear black and white lines to it?
>>93896835It objectively does if you're the DM.
>>93901137you need to be a bad dm AND playing a bad game, there's so many mistakes you made to get there that it really shouldn't be taken seriously
>>93891607>five seconds before traveling to fishman city he valorously offers to leave the party so that you have space to take in imoen>yes it's impossible for seven people to travel together this makes perfect sense for a dramatic moment showing a character's morality shut the fuck up
>>93893006> If you look at their monster entry it says "100% Chaotic Evil"Tell me how to get to this monster entry of which you speak. Because I’m looking at the 3.5 Monster Manual for them and it says “often neutral evil”. The book defines “often” in this context as meaning a plurality but not a majority. Not more than 50.00% of kuo-toa are neutral evil. They are actually neutral evil less often than high elves are chaotic good (high elves are “usually” CG, meaning a majority but with plenty of room for exceptions).
>>93893021Except that even old D&D had playable drow and orcs with no alignment restrictions. So why not kuo-toa?
>>93901508because he's making shit up
>>93901505He's making shit up, but you're refering to the wrong edition and you know it. That's not a NWN2 screenshot in OP, is it?>Tell me how to get to this monster entry of which you speak.Search the name of the monster in a working search engineGo to it's FR wiki pageSelect the editionCheck what their reference isPirate the bookRead the bookThis book is ten years older than the vidya game and has the definition of the creature in the system the game is set in.It goes without saying that there is no "100% Chaotic Evil" that el retardo made up nor even an "always" or the like.
>>93901137Nothing involving a DM is a game.
>>93902186all those worldbuilding topics pertain to tabletop games whether you like it or not
>>93901505Baldur's Gate 2 isn't 3.5, retard.
>>93901505based retard
>>93905072Baldur's gate 2 isn't an edition where kuo-toa are 100% CE either, retard
>>93905142just look up the 2nd edition monstrous manual
>>93905172I literally did, retard >>93901573
>>93891607The fact that this old cunt betrays you during the encounter with Drizzt still makes me butthurt after all these years
>>93901505It's not kua toa in that village. Also it's not 3.5
>>93905142>Kua-ToaAnon, I know the game is old, but maybe you should replay it...In the fish city, it's Sahuagin. Not Kua-Toa.
>>93891607If you do a Detect Evil, every single one of those crazy fucking fish pings as evil. Not to mention they are all carnivores of humans, the king is insane, the prince is a lying deceitful weasel who wants to make Sahuagin stronger so they can kill more surfacers.Kill them and let Blibdoolpoolp sort it.
>>93892628>why are there so many people that can't see shades of grey it?That's literally a conversation the OP pic Paladin has with a druid in-game.t. /v/ermin
>>93891607>End up in city full of satanic fishmen>"DURR SOME OF THEM MIGHT BE GOOD"Do people just have some fanciful idea that "Evil" actually means misunderstood and the victims of racism? Do you know what an evil society would do? Kill everyone in it who isn't evil either directly or simply by creating a selection process that winnows them out. The Sahaugin have been worshipping LITERAL DEVILS for thousands of years. If there were good Sahaugin these ones fucking killed them all eons ago.Also you might have noticed that Keldorn is a Paladin. This is back when Dungeons and Dragons was written by men, and not faggots, trannies and women, so "Paladin" means "Man who serves the Objective forces of Good, and can read your soul with his mind to see if you're evil."If he says "The Sahaugin are evil," the Sahaugin are evil you fucking pissant.
>>93912625>Do people just have some fanciful idea that "Evil" actually means misunderstood and the victims of racism? no, it's how aligned mortal races work in dnd, even when they're described as lawful evil or whatever some of them will be other alignmentsthis is opposed to outer planars like demons who are always their described alignment without something extreme like divine intervention changing itso if it's an evil mortal race there's always the possibility some of them aren't evil, even goblins and shit like that get hit by this
I'm so tired of this "vegan lion" shrinking away from the concept of "it's in their nature". Fish men are not people. Snake men are not people. Lizard men are not people. Orcs are not people. Illithids are not people.It is not "racist" to declare that inhuman monsters do not abide by human values, and can be written off in the same way that we write off the virtues of screw worms flies.No one ever says "but what about the GOOD xenomorphs?". We understand that the Aliens from Alien are inherently hostile to human existence. Why is fantasy so rife with faggots that can't accept the idea of evil races?
>>93912974they are people, they just aren't humans
>>93912974Those are all people you're wrong
>>93912625By "satanic fishmen" in D&D your are likely referring to Kuo-Toa or Sahuagin, that are respectively just often NE and usualy LE by 3.5 MM, meaning that there's significative minorities of non-evil individuals of both races > "Paladin" means "Man who serves the Objective forces of Good, and can read your soul with his mind to see if you're evil."no > Kill everyone in it who isn't evil either directly or simply by creating a selection process that winnows them out. nice fan fiction
>>93912974>Why is fantasy so rife with faggots that can't accept the idea of evil races?Because the books literally describe them as people who can be alignments other than evil.You're conflating "inherently hostile to human existence" that certain actual monsters represent, such as xenomorphs, with a bunch of races that are almost human in the way they behave, except they have rubber forehead adornments and they are mean to each other more often than humans but not always.
>>93912974Aside from illithids, all of those literally are people. You are literally telling on yourself.
>>93913257>Because the books literally describe them as people who can be alignments other than evilNo.A Paladin with detect evil and a scholar reading a book called 'Study and History of the Sahuagin Race' will come to the same conclusion: they are evil creatures who must be killed.
>>93917814They're monsters, not people.
>>93918431Humans and elves are also in the monster manual. You're dumb. People can be monsters and vice-versa.
>>93918451Humans and Elves have a diverse amount of alignments that they are capable of being. Many monsters do not, such as these: >>93918426They are cosmically evil. Alignment is a metaphysical description, which is malleable in humans and some races, but not all. Sahuagin are IMMUTABLY evil.
>>93918466>because they kill for sport and pleasure as well as food…so do humans?>inb4 animals don’t count because they’re not sapientYou can hold a two-way conversation with freakin’ blades of grass in D&D with the right spells, magic items, or class abilities. Don’t try to tell me that deer don’t count.>inb4 continuing to insist on it anywayIf you asked a dozen people what the most famous landmark in the city of Rome is, you’d get a fair number naming the Coliseum, where people were killed for sport.>inb4 still doesn’t count, humans were primitive back thenLet me tell you about a city in China called Nanjing in the 1930s.>inb4 doesn’t count, Japanese subhumansLet me tell you about what American settlers would get up to in the Old West with Indians.>inb4 doesn’t count, Indian subhumansLet me tell you about what American settlers would get up to in the Old West with each other>inb4 doesn’t count, American subhumansLet me tell you about the Thirty Years’ War.
>>93918538You missed the part where they are a threat to all living things because they kill for pleasure and sport IN TANDEM with being cosmically evil. Some humans are evil, yes. No shit.
>>93918538>bringing up real-world historical shit in a discussion about a universe that operates on different metaphysical principles to oursWhat do you get out of defending Sahuagin? The book fucking says they're evil. You are not more powerful than the author.
>>93918426in the 1st edition maybe, but this is a second edition context>>93918466false, sauhagin are an example of a usually evil people that still do have diverse alignments, "cosmically evil" is reserved for outer planars like demons and devils
>>93918466Anon listed a bunch of races (like orcs) that aren't necessarily evil. Being a monster isn't the same thing as being evil. Also being necessarily evil doesn't mean the same thing as having the evil subtype. An evil sahaugin is no more evil than an evil human, they're both COSMICALLY EVIL in the sense that the cosmos cares about human evil, but neither of them are evil outsiders and neither of them have the evil subtype. You're dumb.
>>93918598>this is a second edition contextThen it's a good thing that I'm literate and have the 2E MM on-hand.It is essentially identical to the 1E entry. They even line-for-line copy entire chunks of text from the 1E entry, including calling them "a threat to the extreme".>>93918610>Anon listed a bunch of races (like orcs) that aren't necessarily evilWe have a word for non-evil monsters, it's called "neutral".
>>93918426That entry says that they're not always lawful evil. The entry for the appropriate edition also does.The entry for Drow just says "Chaotic Evil". Drizzit literally exists in that game and is not evil. You gay little genocide fantasy is strictly fanfiction.>>93893006>"100% Chaotic Evil">sahaugin>literally the opposite of Chaotic>not 100% eitherlmao @ ur life
>>93913247To be fair, the relevant game system is AD&D 2e, not 3e. I don't know if it makes a difference.
>>93918626everyone has it on hand, retard, it's just a google search awaynote how it doesn't say anywhere they're always lawful evil, cosmically evil, or otherwise say or imply that they're a threat to all living things
>>93918626Same book, same videogame, demonstrably has good members of evil races
>>93918626>We have a word for non-evil monsters, it's called "neutral".Well maybe you should go make your own monster manual and put your own terminology into it then. This discussion is about ADnD 2nd edition monsters.
>>93918580The book says they're not all evil. You're are not more powerful than the author.Sogs are just wannabe chuuls anyway
>>93918636>everyone has it on hand>otherwise say or imply that they're a threat to all living thingsFucking retard. Check pic related.>>93918640Elves are not monsters.
>>93918626>We have a word for non-evil monsters, it's called "neutral".I don't think that you remember what your point is. >>93918633>You gay little genocide fantasy is strictly fanfiction.No, Keldorn was right, Sahaugin are awful. We're arguing about whether or not there's some minor chance of an individual sahaugin being neutral or good but neither of those things would make him wrong. Sure, it would be tragic if a rare good sahaugin died in defense of an evil sahaugin settlement but that still wouldn't make him wrong.
>>93918654They're in the monstrous manual. They're all treated the same.There is no "monster" type in dnd anyway, so trying to turn the word into an argument is pointless.
>>93918654>Elves are not monsters.lol, you're dumb.
>>93918654Same book, same videogame. If elves (drow) aren't monsters than neither are sahaug
>>93918654still not cosmically evil, and still not different from humans in their own farmlands
>>93918680Alignment is cosmic and metaphysical.
>>93918691they are mortal people, the alignment of sauhagin has the same metaphysical weight and intractability as the alignment of a human, elf, dwarf, orc, or goblin
>>93918680>humans in their own farmlandsA paladin would slaughter them too if he knew for sure that a.) most of them were evil b.) their culture was intractably evil and c.) the children probably cannot ever be taught to stop being evil. In the case of the sahaugin you actually do know these things for sure.
Which is worseWhite & Straight Paladin that genocides anything inhuman on sight, was it lawful or not.Or Black Paladin who investigates and follows the Book of Order.
>>93918703no, you're thinking of druids, actually, a paladin is favorably inclined to matters of lawfulness, and would not immediately assume without checking that everyone working the farms is evilwhich is why it's especially dumb that this thread is about sauhagin, who are lawful themselves
>>93918710worse at what? seems like the black one is worse at fighting and the white one is worse at being a nerd
>>93918710What the hell is a Book of Order? >>93918711>sauhagin, who are lawful themselvesLawful...and wait for it...evil.
>>93918711>a paladin is favorably inclined to matters of lawfulnessI don't think you know what that means in this context. There is an ongoing state of war between sahaugin and surface people. IIRC sahaugin are fanatically devoted to their god and are intractably committed to his war, that's where the "lawful" part comes from, it doesn't mean they're prone to negotiation or that they respect surface laws. If the farmers were all worshiping an evil god, and had magically modified themselves such that their natural predilection for good was reduced to that of a sahaugin, then a lot of paladins would just say to kill them all.For what its worth, some other guy in Keldorn's shoes could say "Actually let's set up camp here and kill all the warriors and then spend the next week vetting the noncombatants with divination magic and interrogation". That would be a really stupid idea but it's still something that a (different) paladin might say.
>>93918761it wouldn't take a week, a 2e paladin can just detect evil at will as many times a day as he wants, that's what makes it so much dumber that he didn't bother checking
>>93918703He wouldn't because just having an evil alignment isn't a justified reason to kill people
>>93918580 >>93918566The book doesn't say they're cosmically evil, shit-for-brains. The same book has an entry for elves, and calls them Chaotic Good, but we know for a fact that the alignment of elves can be and often is different from that. Unless you can show me where in the sahuagin entry it actually says "these guys are always, 100%, no exceptions, evil", then you've got nothing but your own house rules.
>>93918580He is a fish.
>>93919162The entry I'm look at says 'Usually Lawful Evil', with their society worshipping an evil shark god.This is right up there with asking if wiping out a drow city is 'evil': Not particularly, given how their society works.
>>93919200>The entry I'm look at says 'Usually Lawful Evil'That'd be the 3e or 3.5 Monster Manual, I'm guessing? "Usually" means "a majority but with plenty of space left over for exceptions to be common" in that context, and the Lawful<>Chaotic axis has no less weight than the Good<>Evil one. Slaughter every sahuagin in a city and you WILL be killing Neutral and probably even some Good sahuagin.
>species of nonhumans is 90% likely to be violent sociopaths>10% of them have the potential to not be violent sociopathsIt follows, then, that the only ethical way to handle evil nonhumans is to apply eugenics over several generations until they've been made mostly sane.
>>93919246>Slaughter every sahuagin in a city and you WILL be killing Neutral and probably even some Good sahuagin.I'd disagree about that. The good sauhagin are probably loners outside of the city, because if they stayed in the city they'd either be forced by their society to commit evil so much they'd stop being good, or they'd just be convicted of moralfaggotry and canibalized.
Holy shit. Keep all that trashy WOKE ideology away from AD&D and the BG trilogy please, guys.I already had enough with both Beamdog and WotC.
>>93891607>we gotta kill them all>uh... maybe some of them aren't evil>ok, who's got "detect evil" at will? Raise your hands>ok then... kill them allDone and done
>>93919448Or they exist in some job that's too useful. also note that I also pointed out that Neutral sahuagin would be killed. The ones who are just going through the motions and just trying to live day by day.
>>93919512So we're just pretending Soulafein doesn't exist in BG2 or something, then?
>>93919616Ignoring how their society excerpt literally says they happily engage in their lot of society, with no dreams of changing it, which means even 'good' sahaguin actively participate in evil activities.Get rekt, faggot, you have no standing here.
>>93918929Fair enough, my apologies, it's been a while since I played that one (that and I started with 3e, where detect evil doesn't pick up creatures with low hit dice). In which case it comes down to Keldorn thinking that all sahaugin were evil.
>>93918947Sure. It depends on the book/edition but they generally have to be an imminent danger to nonevil people in addition to being evil themselves.
>>93919200You know what I do remember in that game? Doing door-to-door genocide in drowtown and killing every single drow (except for that one who isn't killable because he just converted to a good-aligned god), then arguing with a friend about whether or not it was right. Good times.
>>93919626>with no dreams of changing itGiven the nature of said society it's very likely that they don't have any idea that it CAN be changed. You'd be surprised what people will tolerate and be okay with when they aren't shown that there is another way of doing things.
>>93919626The excerpt is describing the typical sahuagin and we all agree that the typical sahuagin is evil.
>hmm>there exists a case in which there is a non-evil sahuagin>therefore you should not kill the village of fish-men who kill and eat humanoids for sportI think I have it. You're swapping the "edge case" and the "average" - or saying "you killing an average fishman is morally the average between 'killing an innocent' and 'killing a habitual murderer' so therefore you should not kill the fishman"
>>93919625Fuck off with your disgusting projections, faggot.>>93919246>Slaughter every sahuagin in a city and you WILL be killing Neutral and probably even some Good sahuagin.No evidence of that, but even if true, it doesn't matter. Individual alignment isn't the be-all end-all, and it is still nothing but a potential expression of Lawful Good to genocide fundamentally evil races that engage in habitual behavior that endows an overwhelming majority of them with an Evil alignment, and dismantle their societies.>>93918710Black Paladin, obviously. The more it strays from the archetype, the worse it gets.>Book of OrderTake your meds, nobody gives a shit about whatever fanfiction you're on about.
>>93920599no, the race is described as usually being evil, non-evil members aren't a statistical fluke, they happen often enough to be statistically expected
>>93921119the only projection here is you projecting modern politics onto a simplistic alignment system
