What game has your favorite list of base skills? And what games do you consider to have a robust and well considered skill list? Where there arnt skills that seem way more useful/worthless then others, or skills that are too niche or too broadly useful?
>>93910888For modern games, Unknown Armies' base skill list is solid. Everyone starts with 15% in>Body: General athletics, struggle>Speed: Dodge, Driving, Initiative>Mind: General education, notice, conceal>Soul: Charm, lyingwith the twist of being able to rename and tweak them however you want, and that UA skills are whatever skills you want to buy. You want to specifically have Egyptology? Sure. You could have Historian or Antiquarian instead. Whatever the fuck you like. Rename "Struggle" to "All Fist, No Brain"? Sure. Rename Drive to Drive Like An Asshole? Sure.
I like Mothership's skill tree style. It works okay for one shots but I wish it was more robust for long campaigns
>>93910888A good skill system should have just as little granularity as needed. D&D 5e does it well by having broad skill categories, so the question "Which skill applies here?" is quickly answered. And even when multiple skills could apply, it doesn't make a difference since the proficiency bonus is always the same. But ditching the skill list in favor of background proficiency is even better.Of the systems you posted, CoC is the worst since there are too many independent skills with too much granularity, plus additional skills that are so obscure they don't even get printed on the sheet.
>>93910888I like HEX, because the list isn't perfect, but it's modular and the mechanics are extremely well-thought out and planned ahead. The skill list also makes sense within the original context of the game (you are a larger-than-life character exploring the Hollow Earth), so I'm lenient over the fact certain skills could be merged, as they are deliberately split into smaller chunks.
>>93911378>Good skill system>Low granularity>DnD anything>DnD non-solutions creating genuine problems>Skill systems just bad, ok?
>>93910936Interesting. If you rename Speed to Will or Spirit you have the Psychosophy Typology system. Speed even includes "initiative" which is really a function of Will. You can then put the physical aspects of speed into Body. This pattern of Mind, Body, Will, and Soul is solid and shows up consistently.
>skill systemThe cancer that killed RPGs
>>93911470Yes, I remember how all the RPGs went extinct in '77
>>93910936I always liked when systems have 4 stats, 2 physical (equilivent to overt physical abilities and subtle physical abilities) and 2 mental (equivalent to book smarts and street smarts). IDK something about it always struck me as a good overall way to categorize an entities capabilities.Like the difference between heavy infantry, light infantry, engineers and officers.Or might, skill, knowledge, and personality
>>93911624Not gone, but it was dead alright
>>93911685>2 physical (equilivent to overt physical abilities and subtle physical abilities) and 2 mental (equivalent to book smarts and street smarts)Name 5 such systems, you absolute no-game
>>93910936>rename and tweak them however you want, and that UA skills are whatever skills you want to buyhow does that work, do you get more bonus the narrower the catagory is? Cause as it stands if you get the same bonus for history in general as you would Egypt in specific, might as well just go history in general. If its just a flavor thing, Really any system can do that.
>>93911378I unironically agree. 5e does a lot of shit wrong, including not allowing you to advancing your skills outside of your proficient ones you picked at lvl 1 and occasional class features, but its rough number of base skills I like. 18 is a great rough amount of skills to have as a springboard. Though I think the skills should be a bit more evenly distributed between the stat modifiers. Should be a few more for strength and dex and wis have too many.
>>93911751>This is your brain on being a never-gameNext thing, you gonna agree how bell curves are done best in 5e
>>93911706The one he posted, Barbarians of Lemuria, Mini 6those are the ones off of my head at least. I dont know why you balk at it. Its not like its some weird number. Stats in games tend to range from 3 to like 8.
>>93911766Did I say it was the best?I know it makes children feel like big boys to just say everything about popular thing bad, cause its easy to do, but when you are an adult, you learn to be able to dislike things overall, but still appreciate parts of it.
>>93911706>I only play D&DBarbarians of LemuriaEssence d20RyuutamaRemiNESMacho Women With GunsBusty Barbarian BimbosMini 64
>>93911867>Did I say it was the best?Did I claim you said anything at all?Work on your reading comprehension, instead of going defensive when people (rightfully) call you a retard
>>93911828... who are you even talking with?>>93911911>Random claim>List of games that don't do this and also some of them don't even existLike I've said, no-game.Here, some context, because I just realised this movie is as old as average zoomerhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlD08Rh6xa8
>>93911967You were comparing me saying "I like around 18 base skills" with me saying "dnd does bell curves the best". And I dont see how liking a certain range of skills is an issue.>>93911986>... who are you even talking with?he asked me to name games that had 4 stats 2 mental 2 physical so I named a few that made me like that spread.>>93911986IDK why that guy responded. the comment above that one was mine.
>So-so OP prompt>But then all the replies that follow
>>93912126People are obsessed with wording autism that lead to completely tangential implications (Me included, im sorry)
>>93910888YZE games with 12-16 skills distributed between 4 attributes.
>>93911986>List of games that don't do this and also some of them don't even existThey all exist, you faggot. Mini 64 is clearly a typo for Mini 6, and they all have 4 base stats that cover physical force, physical grace, intellectual force, and intellectual grace.Stop projecting your lack of gaming experience onto others. /tg/ is not a replacement for actually playing.
>>93910888I like my skill list. Short, simple and broad enough to cover most situation. It's the best.The best skill system is make your own.
>>93914871thats false. its like making a sandwich, its always better when someone else does it.
>>93914871Explain sex combat ASAP
>>93910888In concept I like the ones that have a few dependent skills. like a disarm being the average of str and dex, but I feel a lot of games that do that shit go too far with the amount of steps. I think leaving the furthest extrapolation of a stat function should be that. I also like it cause it makes certain things not strictly one category or another. Your good at frouny line fighting OR you are good at archery. No there are some things that can use either str or dex as a base.A particular example I always found a bit anoying is with firearms whoch often get roped into the equivelent of dex, even though a lot of gun weilder types arent necissarily dexy (like some big buff grizzled seargent type), so I always wanted it to be a function of str and dex, so you can actually have big beef cakes who can shoot their guns well with recoil and general training,instead of the peroetting ninjas somehow being better at that.
>>93915396I think sniping specificly might work well for dex, but something like a 60 ft firefight shouldn't be too dependent on that. its more even handed control then pinpoint accuracy.
these days I prefer professions as seen in shadow of the demon lord, and don't particularly favor discrete skill systems too much. but I do like this onemost notably for not having insight or an analog of itI think it's kind of missing a "make stuff" skill but it's also monumentally easy to homebrew skills in the system. it gives you +1 to rolls and lets you access your reroll pool for related checks. there's no ranking up or anything and in my experience you can just write in whatever when you get a new skill
>>93911706Damn son, you got owned.
>>93910888WWN's list is decent, but making Know cover all knowledge never made sense to me, especially when Magic and Pray are already basically Knowledge: arcana and Knowledge: religion. Pathfinder 1E's list always seemed the best, but any game where all types of knowledge are covered by the list of skills works.
>>93911711UA also gives you what is referred to as "skill penumbra"the example they give is that having a Firearms skill also covers maintenance and repair, but also things like being able to under some circumstances use that firearms skill to do things like>Know how to contact a guy you see at the range every week>Recall information about different manufacturers from history>Clock that someone is CC'ing from their gait or just body language from years of experience>Tell the difference between gunshots and firecrackers from two streets away>Assess that someone else's firearms skill is nonexistant even though they're pointing a gun at youUA takes the approach that no skill should exist in a vacuum or as an unusual pillar standing tall on a sheet, unless there is a really good (or supernatural) reason for it. Someone who looks like a normal office worker but has "Egyptology 40%" should also know things like the names and locations of major egyptologists, what artifacts are at what exhibits, and a whole lot of tangential stuff which he would not know for EVERY field of history if he had "Antiquarian".I should also note that UA skills come under a stat's purview and this influences some rolls. eg, you have a Speed score of 50% and a Drive skill of 15% as a default starting human. That doesn't mean you fuck up and crash 85% of the time on the drive to work. Skills explicitly measure your ability under duressTL;DR, Unknown Armies tells the GM that skills should imply other information and skills that are too specific to have their own skill on a sheet. Agent 47 doesn't have a dozen highly specific extra skills, he has a core of >The Consummate Professional (hitman skill)>Expert Marksman>Infiltrate, Eliminate>Avatar: The Executioner 50% (putting him just shy of the staredown this avatar path gains)Avatar Paths and Magick are two of UA's weird unique points, along with its stress/insanity mechanics, I won't go into them unless someone wants an autismdump.
>>93917932Yah, there are some things I like and dont.Specifically i have some issues with terminology for something trying to be a sandbox. like stab and punch for armed and ubarmed melee specificly.Know I kinda get, ment to cover the gambit of achademic knowledge outside the arcane and religious.I do line that it has a skill for administration though, I think thats something often forgotten, but is actually a really major field of skill when dealing with any sort of organized body.
>>93911706Shadow of the Demon Lord has Strength, Agility, Intellect, and Will as its four attributes.
>>93913039>dex and wis/cha equivelents as physical and mental graceah, thats a great way to put it.
>>93915208Herbert's Bene Gesserit, literally.
>>93915208>>93932833And >La Blue Girl>Taimanen Asagi
>>93913039>clear diametrically opposed stats>instantly see character archetype based on stat spread> physical vs mental dichotomy spliced with force vs finesseS+ tier
I'm trying to come up with a list of skills for an urban fantasy/paranormal investigation system. I want a good set of skills where none feel too niche or useless. Ideally I want every character to have to roll every skill at least once every 2-3 sessions. I think a list of 10 skills is a decent number for my purposes. So far I've come up with: >Perception (general awareness, finding things, driving)>Athletics (running, jumping, climbing, moving heavy stuff)>Larceny (stealth, lockpicking, pickpocketing)>Fighting (brawling and meele weapons)>Aiming (range weapons from crossbows to grenades)>Survival (using rope and traps, animal ken, tracking, resistance to the elements)>Occult (rituals, exorcisms, general occult lore)>Academics (general knowledge of science and humanities)>Persuasion (charm, deception, reading people)>Technology (computers, electronics, engineering)Thoughts? Am I missing something obvious?
>>93915208
>>93910888I'd say Warhammer Fantasy's tabletop had my favorite skills-heavy system, something I'm not usually a fan of but the momentum bonus allowed you to find ways to apply your best skills early on to build a high enough modifier to utilize less build-invested but necessary to the context actions.
Unironically Dogs in the Vineyard. The fact that skills were just "traits" of your character and you could apply them if they were applicable made for less fiddliness and allowed you to embody a character (And the fact that skills at "Low levels" could also end up being liabilities)Like "Bookish" could be a trait of yours and you would roll it every time it was relevant at all, like if you needed to remember a bit of information or convince someone of something theological but not in a combat situation or when trying to outrun a bull gone amok, and "Coward" could be a low level skill used both for standing up for yourself and for running away (But since it's low level it's as much of a liability as a boon).
>>93945219Consider "Research" which may mix with academics.
>>93945219Consider adding"Forensic", perhaps.For stuff like "identifying fingerprints", "following footsteps" that kind of stuff. Very useful in an investigation game.
>>9391212695% percent of people discussing mechanics on /tg/ are the kind of retards who would have created completely mathematically broken 3.5 homebrews 15 years ago to make it "grittier" and "darker". Just pissy little hipsters, whose whole personality revolves around >disliking popular thing, only now you don't homebrew, you shill for some worthless indie game that someone vomited up in an afternoon, and sells it to his polycule on indiegogo. All the while DnD lives rent free in their otherwise empty crania.
>>93938995The downside: It's a strong abstraction and will always force you into a very game-y mindset.
>>93962929It's only a downside if you forget that you are playing a roleplaying GAME. Also, GURPS proves that you can get away with some extreme levels simulationism with minimal stats if you have a large enough skill list..
>>93962955>Also, GURPS proves that you can get away with some extreme levels simulationism with minimal stats if you have a large enough skill list..I mildly disagree. It's technically possible, but inelegant.Basic Abilities function as something of a Synergy mechanic: If you're really good at sword fighting, you're probably a solid intermediate in spear fighting, etc. Abilities do this very naturally, because its plain intuition that a strong guy is both good at swords and spears; abilities also provide a good skeleton for the character concept if the abilities are chosen with care to fit the setting.GURPS cuts down the abilities to complete genericness. That way, it doesn't work as a skeleton anymore, and abilities are now to broad to serve as a proper synergy system, so they re-implemented that with a huge ass lookup table and incremental modifiers, both of which are clunky as fuck and also redundant. I'd respect GURPS more if it just cut out the base stats entirely.
>>93960294>>93962840Thank you for the suggestions. I'm always worried of making skills too specific or stepping on another skill's toes. So instead of having someone roll Research I might want to use the skill closest to the subject they're researching. Do you want to research how to fend off a demon? Occult. Who made this mysterious computer virus? Technology. To what culture does this ancient relic belong to? Academics. The problem with this kind of approach is that some skills might inadvertently feel too broad compared to others. A skill like Survival is probably not going to see as much use as something like Perception, but I'm trying to mitigate problems like that as much as I can.Forensics might be something I'd need to integrate somehow, either as a full skill or as a "subskill" of Academics since I'm considering adding specialties players will have to choose from when picking up that skill.
>>93963972if you want to see the absolute biggest a skill list could be, to get ideas from, look at GUMSHOE, which is designed to be "investigation: the rpg", with all the other things (like dating and fighting) reduced to side attractions at best.The first release of GUMSHOE was a system/setting called The Esoterrorists. I'll see if I have any pdfs I can post a screenshot of the skill list from. The idea was, in this system, having even one point of a skill is an investment and makes you good at it.
>>93963972>>93964165found the text SRDhttps://pelgranepress.com/gumshoe/files/GUMSHOE_SRD_CC_3.pdfthe esoterrorists skill list, aimed at a modern-day supernatural/occult investigation a la the X Files, isInvestivagive - Academic>Anthropology>Archaeology>Architecture>Art History>Forensic Accounting>Forensic Psychology>History>Languages>Law>Lingustics>Local Knowledge>Natural History>Occult Studies>Pathology>Research>Textual Analysis>TriviaInvestigative - Interpersonal>Bullshit Detector>Bureaucracy>Cop Talk>Flattery>Flirting>Impersonate>Interrogation>Intimidation>Negotiation>Reassurance>StreetwiseInvestigative - Technical>Astronomy>Ballistics>Chemistry>Cryptography>Data Retrieval>Document Analysis>Electronic Surveilance>Evidence Collection>Explosive Devices>Fingerprinting>Forensic Anthropology>Forensic Entomology>PhotographyGeneral>Athletics>Driving>Filch>Health>Infiltration>Mechanics>Medic>Preparedness>Scuffle>Shoot>Shrink>Stability>Surveillance
>>93963131>Inelegance as a complaintYou're just looking for a reason to continue the fight without admitting that you don't have a real complaint. Sorry to come off as needlessly aggressive, but nobody complains about the elegance of rules when there is any flaw they can find about it on the tabletop.
>>93964165>>93964301That's a fuckton of skills. I had heard of GUMSHOE but I've never played it. Definitely something I'll want to take a look at for inspiration of things that could come up at an investigation-heavy game.
>>93964830One of the important things to do if you ever do run gumshoe is to fine tune the skill list.A big takeaway from looking at it, though, is that you can afford to make non-investigative skills way more generic and broad and have less of them, if they're not the focus.
>>93965138>is that you can afford to make non-investigative skills way more generic and broad and have less of them, if they're not the focus.That's very true and something I'll try to keep in mind. I guess mechanics shouldn't necessarily try to reflect "reality" but instead the themes of the kind of stories you want to tell.
>>93910888I've always loved Deadlands skill set back when it was still using playing cards for character creation. It hit just the right amount of crunch and fluff for the system.
>>93963972>>93964647Forensic is really not a subskill of Academics.Funnily, I suggested it because of Gumshoe, too. I ran Trail of Cthulhu, which uses the same engine, and "Forensic" and "Evidence Collection" is basically the god stat.Whenever you get... say... in a house where some weird shit happened, that's the stat you tap into to notice that, welp, actually the door was burst open from the inside and therefore the missing little girl may actually be a shapeshifter.
>>93968256but you could combine a bunch of these together without impending the game very much.Skills work differently in ToC and the Gumshoe system, because you don't roll to use them.So having a bunch of them is part of the game balance (I guess).You could basically roll all of the Interpersonal Abilities into one or two skills, like "Persuasion" and "Streetwise"Academics could be just one skill, too. Etc...Re-reading your list >>93945219 I realise that "Forensic" could be rolled into Perception, perhaps.A "profession" or "craftmanship" skill could be added, perhaps, for all the stuff which is not strictly speaking technological. For all of the cases where you need to build a crossbow that can launch silver stakes to fight vampire werewolves.Having characters who are not computer nerds but who are good with tools is thematic and flavourful in urban fantasy.Using rope and traps could be put in there, too.
>>93968256>>93968370>I realise that "Forensic" could be rolled into Perception, perhaps.I'm considering splitting Academics into something like Sciences and Humanities. In that case, the umbrella of Forensics could be shared between Perception (to make connections between irregularities in the scene) and Sciences (to examine a dead body, analyze soil samples, etc). Since I want to force players to roll for skills they might not have invested into, I think it's going to work out well for my purposes. >A "profession" or "craftmanship" skill could be added, perhaps, for all the stuff which is not strictly speaking technological.Good point. For now I've been thinking of rolling that kind of thing into Survival. I want the skill to not only be about outdoorsy stuff but also about improvising and being crafty. Like a hobo living under a bridge might have a high Survival skill because he's built a stove out of junk kind of thing. I understand it can create certain idiosyncracies but I'm willing to live with it if it doesn't feel too awkward during play.
>>93969928Careful that "perception" is widely recognised as the most useful skill in a lot of games.It's the thing people roll whenever an enemy is silently creeping up on them, or a serial killer is putting rat poison in the sangria during a party.Nothing of these would really work as "humanities".>rolling that kind of thing into SurvivalThat's another example of choice of skills being dependant on the expected content of the campaign.Putting together craftmanship and survival would work fine if your urban fantasy campaign is never going to get the players out of a city to the wilderness, or vice-versa.But if you plan to have occasional bigfoot hunts in the Pacific Northwest rainforest, then it would make sense for Roger the Ranger to be more at ease there than Walter "Ducktape and a shotgun" Turner.On the other hand, in most campaigns separating Academics between Humanities and Sciences is a bit secondary if you have a separate skill for technology. You wouldn't be too surprise to have Randall the expert in Sumerian script to be able to identify different types of pollen under a microscope if his life depended on it, given enough prep time. Neither would it feel out of character to have Dana Scully identify that the hieroglyphs on the "so called fragment of alien ship" is actually Klingon and therefore probably a movie prop, Mulder, you ditz.You managed to boil down the skills to a pretty short list, I think adding one is still fine.
>>93970385Essentially I want to minimize the chances of leaving a player holding their dick because they decided to invest into the "wrong" skill. I do think there is something to be said for making Craftmanship into its own skill so I want to experiment with it, but I'll give up the bit of extra flavor it offers if I see it just ends up making both Survival and Craftmanship into underused skills. As for Academics, I'll probably leave it as it is for now and only make adjustments to it if I see it's way more useful than most other skills.In any case, thanks for taking the time to give me your opinion in all this.
What is it with scifi and skill list bloat?Even Cyberpunk 2020 has different skills for piloting vector thrust vehicles, fixed wings vehicles and dirigibles.
>>93979576I forget what fucking game it was, but I played some space game where they had so much little fiddly shit, Engines, Steering, Navigation, Atmospheric Reentry... I get that you were supposed to be a crew, but it felt like one person couldn't do anything.
>>93979576I guess once you get into "skills that people can realistically do today" rather than "fantasy skills", you get more division into subcategories. It does seem to my recollection that modern/scifi games get way more fucking skill bloat, but then also look at 3.0 D&D's skills, especially the intended-for-rogue skills. Fucking innuendo, man.
>>93910888DSA / TDE
