>>93912604
With 4/9 factions out it was the 6th best selling game in the USA. This is in independent retailers that didn’t have access to MTO/more limited items in the range. In that same time AoS was 4th. It’s game over for AoS once the popular factions are released. What went so right is the question we should be asking. How did ugly as shit 35 year old skeletons threaten Age of Sigmars position in sales.

>>93912604
The game is ass for rank and flank. Infantry sucks, they made cavalry as powerful as they have ever been in WHFB and it's complete herohammer, a lord on a dragon is the best unit you can possibly field. Nonmagical shooting sucks dick and there's no point having anything but a max level caster. An 'Old World' army looks exactly like an Age of Sigmar army: some huge monster character, as many hammer units as you can fit in especially if they're monstrous cavalry, and some cheap shitty screens which are ideally flyers or skirmishers.

>>93912662
>nonmagical shooting sucks dick
He says in a meta that has wood elves as the highest win rate faction competitively.

I really dont care for the old world until cathay gets showed off. Even if everything looks ass, as long as the heavy armor models get adapted then im going hog on it.

>>93912604
no one wants to play with old depressed men who like to complain

>>93912733
Oh, the faction with
>above average BS
>special magic arrows to ignore things like cover and long range penalties, give poison, or increase AP
>units that can shoot then move or even move-shoot-move
>units that can move again when shot at or charged
>really good mobile level 4 casters who do more damage than the bow units anyway
>on top of all that, dragon lords
>on top of all that, extremely hard-hitting relatively cheap cavalry
>on top of all that, cavalry with a 4+ ward who are wizards that can auto-select excellent spells
>on top of all that, no need to field any significant infantry blocks and can make everything skirmishers or cav or monsters
????

Wood elf lists are not strong because they plink away with some bows lmao. Shit wood elf "shooting" is strong because of Plague of Rust and it still probably does less damage in the average game than magic missile spells.

>>93912796
Nobody tell him.

>>93912796
For me it’s Kislev, I already bought one Old World army to paint/play and I’ve put aside $1000 for the inevitable Kislev release.

>>93912636
Pure copium. TOW only getting 6th place despite everything selling out at its release is bad news when it no longer sells out at all.

It's hype died somehow, and now could barely keep up with the AoS Ushoran and his faction refresh. How the hell is that even possible? And how big will the gap be when considering new edition Fall sales?

>>93912604
Half-assed marketing and luke-warm commitment by GW, mostly. And it still did fine.

>>93912926
Anon everything in old world has been restocked multiple times save for the WoC released in the last week. Meanwhile Skaventide, the premier limited number AoS box is still Selling Fast! to this day. AoS flopped massively with 4th edition and its embarrassment can still be seen at every independent retailer and GW that is sitting on a mountain of unwanted limited edition AoS boxes.

>>93912733
>>93912817
Here are some podium wood elf lists in TOW:
>glade lord on dragon
>level 4 caster
>minimum core spend: 2 units of deepwood scouts and 2 units of glade guard, all units <10 models
>2 units of wild riders
>2 units of sisters of the thorn
or
>glade lord on dragon
>level 4 caster
>wardancer character
>minimum core spend: 2 units of deepwood scouts and 1 unit of glade guard, all <10 models. one unit of glade riders too
>wardancer unit
>wild rider unit
>treeman
>great eagle
At least you might take the 2nd as resembling a real army, but nobody is deluding themselves that the trivial shooting units are what matter in these lists.

And I guess at least these are better than the monstrosity of the dwarf list that came in 2nd to the first wood elf list:
>anvil of doom (no lords or thanes or engineers or any other character)
>7 units of 5 quarrelers
>1 unit of 10 rangers (these 2 units combined are 505 points exactly, so also minimum core spend)
>4 bolt throwers
>8 gyrocopters
>5 units of 5 irondrakes
What do you want in your rank and flank tactical fantasy battles game senpai?
>Oh I'd like exactly ZERO ranks in my entire army list please, and a bunch of tiny sacrifical roadblock dwarf units that I can zoomzoom my 8 flying helicopters around to ignore all the regular rules of the game
>Please also not a single character, narrative and personality are far too cringe.

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>>93912604
Turns out it died for a reason

>>93912964
>They make exactly the same amount of TOW product and AoS product
>The new edition is a flop just like the last edition and the one before that

>>93912604
The game is good and it's selling surprisingly well. Cope.

>>93912964
Cap. None of TOW boxes have sold out since the Bret/TK release boxes. They have flopped entirely like AoS did. The difference is that AoS flops still make money, while TOW only made decent money while selling out. Stop with the copium.

>>93913066
At first it did. Now nothing is selling out.

>>93912604
As a game; it's just a mediocre edition of a mediocre very old game that feels absolutely ancient to play.
WHFB was always a clunky mess and this didn't improve anything. It's basically on the level of someone's homebrew with how low effort it was.

I'll give it this: It did try to fix the old getting new people on board problem of WHFB where WHFB requires too fucking many models to even start playing and having fun games; by making it that your armies can be small via infantry blocks aka the core of the game, just being a shit trap option if you take them (linehammer be damned they pretty much all still suck). Woops.

Other than that just throw in typical modern GW supply problems and you get anyone who wants to play either being people who can dig out old armies and were already susceptible to distractions anyway, or looking at prints and other 3rd party models to fill out (it's not like everyone else stopped making fantasy miniatures when WHFB died) because of that drip-drip-drip of releases and suddenly you also have people after a few months just getting bored or have burned out their nostalgia on trying to play this mess and end up looking at Kings of War or Conquest or some other more cleaned up and refined system instead because they're better games to actually play than ToW's clusterfuckery.
And so yeah, you can't keep a hype train chugging when it keeps stopping to let people off at every opportunity. This was absolutely inevitable to the point that it's funny.

>>93913149
>ToW
Opinion discarded.

>>93912976
>>8 gyrocopters
lolwut

>>93912976
>>93913692

Something like that ?
===
[2000 pts]
++ Characters [285 pts] ++

Anvil of Doom [285 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Shields
- Heavy armour
- General
- 2x Rune of Spellbreaking

++ Core Units [500 pts] ++

10 Rangers [150 pts]
- Hand weapons
- Crossbows
- Throwing axes
- Heavy armour
- Great weapons
- Shields

5 Quarrellers [50 pts] x7
- Hand weapons
- Crossbows
- Heavy armour
- Shields

++ Special Units [840 pts] ++

Bolt Thrower [85 pts]
- Bolt thrower
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Rune of Skewering
- Rune of Burning

Bolt Thrower [80 pts]
- Bolt thrower
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Rune of Skewering
- Stalwart Rune

Bolt Thrower [80 pts]
- Bolt thrower
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Rune of Skewering
- Rune of Reloading

Bolt Thrower [75 pts]
- Bolt thrower
- Hand weapons
- Light armour
- Rune of Skewering

1 Gyrocopters [65 pts] x8
- Hand weapons
- Brimstone guns
- Full plate armour

++ Rare Units [375 pts] ++

5 Irondrakes [75 pts] x5
- Hand weapons
- Drakeguns
- Full plate armor

>>93913122
Anon multiple restocks of characters/monsters have happened and some people ( me ) have been waiting for months for restocks. I’m literally begging GW to take my money and they can’t fulfill the demand.

>>93912964
Lol my lgs just had to take 30+ boxes of unsold O&G off the shelf to make way for 30+ boxes of dwarfs that are going to equally gather dust. Can't wait to see how many chaos boxes they take on, I spoke to the owner about it he said there was interest in the game but no-one was buying shit cos the only people who are interested are old grogs with existing armies. At least it means I can buy hammerers for my CoS army.

>>93912604
Old models & modern prices, yay

>>93914044
Once again. 4th place AoS vs 6th place ToW, with 4 armies available none of them being the more popular ones ( elves and Empire ). Tick tock sigpiggy, you’ve got 2-3 years before your entire system goes the way of the fat sigmarine range.

>>93914073
Your copium is pathetic, anon. Idk much about this pathetic war, but TOW boxes are just hanging in my LGS too. That includes Warriors of Chaos, which I'm pretty sure was one of the most popular factions. TOW should never have come out if it was going to be a sidegame. Its pretty much doomed at this rate.

>>93912636
Thise skeletons aren't selling. A LOT of TOW isn't selling in my area. Shit tons just rot on the shelves.

>>93913985
Oh, you're talking about individual monsters/units? Yeah, you're right. That's the case for all GW systems though. I was talking about the big boxes that GW is hyping.

>>93912976
Literally this.
TOW is a fucking joke of a game. Rank and flank that doesn't encourage rank and flank, it in fact discourages it.
It's just pure cancer, probably why it died a whores death to begin with

>>93912983
You were not supposed to point that out.

>>93913949
There is zero chance the irondrakes didn't have the torpedo

>>93914233
>nationwide sales figures
>cope
Kek anon there is cope in our convo but it isn’t coming from me

Alright wise guys, how would YOU resurrect and fix WHFB without radically changing it into AoS?

>>93914615
Let people enjoy things

>>93914569
You really are a retard, huh? Nobody disputes TOW doing well at release. Now do everyone a favor and consider its future when selling out in everything at Spring led to 6th top selling war game...and how it will drop when everything is NO LONGER selling out.

>>93914615
If the objective is just to maintain WHFB for a few years, then TOW is perfectly serviceable. It won't be a bread winner by any means, but it will earn its keep.

>>93912604
I dislike the base size fuckery

>>93912662
Horrible and boring.

>>93914741
Considering it’s a specialist game it already beat all expectations massively. HH and Necromunda/BB never ever made top 10. As GW said in their quarterly report they didn’t expect the game to appeal to new people, and they launched it expecting only old fans to buy in, and they basically admitted they were wrong in the corporate sense. In general too the team directly said the scope is expanding due to the financial success. Will it ever rival the main games? Probably not, but it’s cemented as a line/game that isn’t going away.

>>93914615
get rid of all pseudo-historical units and replace them with unique looks or retro-punk looks.
so no more not!HRE infantry, not!medieval knights, not!high/wood/dark elves.
either give them unique cool uniforms or give them steampunk/magitek equipment like magic flintlock muskets.

>>93914826
Indeed. Regardless of the naysayers, TOW btfo'd HH and reached the top 10. If nothing else, even if it can't reach mainline game status, it is secure for a decade at the very least.

>>93912926
>GW kneecaps itself by bottlenecking production lines
>game is STILL #6 in the US despite insanely retarded supply shortage
If anything this is even more impressive, it means if they weren't self-sabotaging it'd be selling even better. Once they stop being allergic to money it'll probably be neck and neck with the Inner Cities of Sigmar and Land Marine game

>>93914615
WHFB isn't a system isn't something that can be tweaked into being a good game so copy a decent modern rank and file wargame rule set and add fantasy shit to it instead of making another edition of WHFB.

And treat it as a side game so make the damn thing playable with unit sizes of like 3 cavalry and 12 infantry if need be, even children can cope with abstraction rules where blocks of few models equals many people, and you don't need to be shoving around insane amounts of individual cunts, plus you can always go bigger later instead of starting big and getting stupid with unit sizes. Needing to build and field (let alone paint) 25+ people in a single infantry block that potentially gets exploded in one combat round isn't a good way to get new people playing fast or keep them playing beyond a demo game when they realise the absolute time/money sink that shit involves.

>>93915207
Idk how releasing multiple factions in a few months is sabotaging. This is, once again, pure copium. TOW is a Specialist game, and has done its maximum effort in that endeavor. It surpass Horus Heresy pretty easily.

But the issue with TOW remains the same as WHFB; very few places to expand once all the old factions return. At least, not without heavy fan backlash. TOW will have to be content in the cuck chair for AoS, or change to become like AoS. Either way; its fated to be in the shadow of AoS just as HH is in the shadow of 40k.

>>93915297
>Idk how releasing multiple factions in a few months is sabotaging
They literally released 4 of the least popular factions first. Once High Elves, Dark Elves, VC, and Empire roll out they'll literally be fucking printing money. Not to mention the TWW kiddies screaming for Cathay and Kislev

>>93915326
Warriors of Chaos were even more popular than 3/4 of those factions. Only High Elves were comparable. Empire was not even that popular before Total War came along. And Warriors of Chaos didn't seem to print money. It did well enough, but its hardly sold out anywhere.

>Not to mention the TWW kiddies screaming for Cathay and Kislev
What part of "Specialist game" do you not understand? TOW got far more in a far shorter time than HH did; there is no sabotaging here.

As an aside; the entire point of keeping a game healthy is to try and spread interest in other factions. If TOW started with nothing but the most popular, then the game would die pretty quickly again as everyone focuses on the popular stuff. And I shouldn't have to explain why releasing everything at once is a terrible idea.

>>93914615
>significantly update all models in quality without significantly changing the scale or aesthetic, keep everything kitbashable and posable, NO MONOPOSE NO CADSLOP
>conservatively add new interesting units, like Border Princes Brigands or new Dogs of War
>keep churning out grimdark kino books and lore without making it a mudcore emo middle school nihilist wankfest, fire all retard writers who want to change established lore or write loser misery porn
>continually release new characters, monsters, artillery options, wizards, etc to supplement existing grog armies and keep the game fresh
>re-release Mordheim with updated original models, official terrain options, and some new official warbands, but don't fucking otherwise touch the rules with a ten foot pole or fuck with the gameplay at all
>cook up some fun skirmish campaign game modes similar to Mordheim so Casual Carl can play WFB without spending $2000 on paint and plastic or only ever playing Mordheim
That's pretty much it

>>93912604

The game that died because no-one bought it got re-released and no-one bought it? HOW SHOCKING

>>93914949
that's just AoS

>>93914615
try the war of the ring rules or just bring us back to hero hammer

>>93912604
It's just a nostalgia cash-grab. Same shit rules from when it got canned, but nostalgia hungry grows will gobble it up deaute buying 20+ year old models at modern GW prices.

Just another reminder that Warmaster is the superior game of Warhammer combat. Proper scale, combats don't take fucking ages, more armies to pick from and a better ruleset overall that is not being touched by GW.

>>93913122
Bro the new Skaven sculpts (100% new unlike TOW) are failing to sell out. Go take a look.
GW is flopping.

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>>93916119
The only model to sell out...

>>93916131
delete this

>>93916119
It's the prices. $60 for 5 globies, $55 for 3 weapon teams, $60 for 10 stormies. $150 for 25 models in the spearhead. $60 for 2 doomflayers. Only $160 for a large? verminlord hahahaha. That MM cost $35 ffs. I'm surprised that some idiots will pay that much for a little 30mm toy. More money than brains. GW are dumb as shit.

>>93912604

Nothing. My chorfs are loving it, and when their backs are turned, so is Skarsnik and his goblins.

>>93914615
>raise points costs for models across the board, try and lower the model count


>monsters get no bonus for combat resolution AT ALL, why the fuck does a random monster get close order

>increase core tax


>increase the viability of non lvl 4 casters, or randomize the winds of magic

>better rules for regular infantry, perhaps using leadership based tests
To achieve results

>>and just because I'm an empire player
>give empire troops a boost

>>93916609
nah.

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>>93912604
This is the playerbase, also overpiced and poorly written

>>93912733
>meta

Stop

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>>93915633

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>>93916637
>nerdchad and nerdstacy
But of course my good anon

>>93914073
>more popular WHFB armies
>Empire
???? TWW made Empire popular, anon. They were never a popular army on the tabletop. Two of the most popular armies are out: dwarves and WoC. High elves would be the only missing one.

everybody in my LGS prefers AoS, even the old WHFB boomer.
something must really went wront with TOW.

>>93916621
Ye

>>93916808
Embarrassing

>>93912604
The game is antiquated and not that enjoyable.
20 year old models.
Groga turning people off the game

Female custodes managed to hold the attention of the board for a whole week before you guys went back to AoS vs TOW.

>>93912926
tbf TOW getting 6th place is better than HH ever got

>>93912926
Imagine how bad AoS is gonna rank when it can't even sell out its starting box or it's new Skaven models...

>>93915533
all of those would require GW to spend money on TOW on updating sculpts or releasing BL books for it. which they have done neither

>>93912604
>What went wrong
Imagine you have a marriage that has gone to shit. You try everything to fix it- but no matter what, it doesn't get better. In fact, it gets worse- she's not fucking dudes behind your back or anything.
She's fucking them right there in front of you.
Now, you're well past the point you should have ended this shit- you've wasted time, money, and effort trying to save something and in spite of everything you've done, it didn't work. So you end it. You need to, because it's just hurting you at this point.
Then the bitch calls you back and wants to know if you want to rekindle your relationship, and like a dumb fuck you say "YEAH!" and drive halfway across the country to her home so you can rush in and take her in your arms and never let her-
She's got three dudes fucking her, calls you a faggot, and tells you to GTFO.
On the way home, you realize how fucking stupid all that was- and you want to say you deserve better than this... but you don't. You don't because you couldn't let go and face the reality.
Maybe you can still convince that one-eyed hooker to wear some of her old clothes again and answer to her name.

>>93918200
Because the discord that makes these threads got bored

>>93918372
It never sells out its starting box, genius. And has consistently gotten top 5 rankings. Hell, it got 4th when the only thing that came out was Ushoran and his faction refresh.

>>93912662
>An 'Old World' army looks exactly like an Age of Sigmar army: some huge monster character, as many hammer units as you can fit in especially if they're monstrous cavalry, and some cheap shitty screens which are ideally flyers or skirmishers.
We've been trying to warn you total war zoomies about this for years, WHFB was legitimately a bad game that got axed for very good reasons

>>93919056
Anon the box is a limited number run…it’s still Selling Fast! To this day at every store in the country. To appropriate an altered version of the catchphrase “ Sigmar Flopped “

>>93919056
Its not a starting box moron, its a limited run special launch box. The starter boxes are different. And yes, the 40k ones ROUTINELY sell out.

>>93919134
>>93919209
You two don't read, do you? Limited number run or not, the point is that every new edition the AoS new edition box never sells out. Ever. And AoS still gets a spot in the top 5, usually the 2nd best selling wargame consistently.

So claiming that AoS ranking is gonna dip because its new edition box doesn't sell out makes zero sense. It makes sense to talk about TOW dipping out of its ranking because it only got its ranking after selling out. If its no longer selling out; then that means its not selling as much as it used to. Copium-addled excuses aside.

>>93919318
>usually the 2nd best selling wargame consistently.
Absolutely fucking wrong. AoS hasn't been 2nd since 2021. 2022 on it has bounced between 3-5th consistently.
They wouldn't have done a massive rules simplification with the intent to draw in new players (they admitted this themselves) if the game was selling well anon. That's a pure desperation move.

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/tg/'s console wars somehow manage to be more embarrassing than /v/'s

>>93919372
Unfortunately the vitriol that AoS fans used to throw at 40k for being more popular has been redirected at TOW since they see it as an existential threat (they shouldn't since its just a specialist game but they're famously insecure about the system they love)

>>93919331
>AoS hasn't been 2nd since 2021. 2022 on it has bounced between 3-5th consistently.
Eh, I'll believe you. I don't keep track. But I did remember that it was top 5 consistently at least.
>They wouldn't have done a massive rules simplification with the intent to draw in new players (they admitted this themselves) if the game was selling well anon. That's a pure desperation move.
Bruh. You do realize that they did the same thing to 40k, right? You know; the top selling wargame of all time? The always #1 spot? Is 40k selling well by this logic, anon?

>>93919435
I've literally never seen any vitriol between 40k and AoS fans. Barring the occasional snide comment anyway.
All this shitflinging is exclusively between WHFB fans and AoS fans. And its almost exclusively from WHFB fans. This is anti-WHFB seethe thread I've seen in a long ass time.

>>93919596
>Eh, I'll believe you. I don't keep track. But I did remember that it was top 5 consistently at least.
Yeah, it definitely wasn't dead-dead but it dropped notably after its COVID-boom.
>You do realize that they did the same thing to 40k, right?
40k unfortunately is also not doing so hot; GW expected the COVID bubble to continue indefinitely so they also tried to simplify it for the sake of new players because LINE MUST GO UP FOREVER!!1!
>>93919610
>I've literally never seen any vitriol between 40k and AoS fans.
You must have never been on Facebook where a 40k fan merely posting "Ah this AoS model looks great I'm gonna kitbash it into 40k" is met with an assault of the most autistic proportions.
>This is anti-WHFB seethe thread I've seen in a long ass time.
Then you haven't been looking, there's been one up constantly since Jan's TOW launch.

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>>93919633
>40k unfortunately is also not doing so hot;
The number one problem with these fucking threads is that none of you people have any idea what you're talking about and are just regurgitating the spiteful contrarianism that you picked up around here.

I lost interest when they just re-released the old shitty models I wanted replaced decades ago.

>>93919633
>You must have never been on Facebook where a 40k fan merely posting "Ah this AoS model looks great I'm gonna kitbash it into 40k" is met with an assault of the most autistic proportions.
That's Facebook, my guy. You see that kind of autism everywhere. Also, that's literally where the tiniest and most autistic of a fanbae congregate anyway.
>Then you haven't been looking, there's been one up constantly since Jan's TOW launch.
I admittedly don't religiously hang out in /tg/, but I do peek here every now and again. And seethe threads usually hang around for a few days. And I recall at least 6 AoS seethe threads. The last one was an anon mocking an AoS table asking if this was "the greatest fantasy war game of all time" or something. I recall a single TOW seethe thread in comparison, and it was about how old TOW models were.

So nah, its mostly seething at AoS.

>>93919710
All thanks to TOW baybee!
As noted, AoS had no real releases so it wasn't a factor in this.

>>93919710
Oh good. Someone brought the financial report. I could've sworn that GW was literally making record-breaking profits pretty much every year at this point.
GW is definitely doing great in terms of making profits.

>>93919742
AoS still made more profits than TOW during TOW's release, genius. So did 40k. So most of the credit goes to 40k, then AoS, and then TOW.

>>93919725
>I admittedly don't religiously hang out in /tg/,
And yet you dared to fucking say "I'VE ONLY SEEN ONE THREAD" as if you're some authority. The absolute nerve.

>>93919742
>All thanks to TOW baybee!
Neither you or anyone else here knows that. The only people who might definitively know are the top sales people at GW who have access to all the global sales data and they aren't telling. GW's financials also don't provide a breakdown.

Everyone here is very far up their own asses.

Will Lizardmen ever get released for use in Old World? I know they're like an unsupported "legends" army or something, but is it assumed they'll get full support? I got a fuckton of the old lizards and they're my favorite army

>>93919760
More revenue, not necessarily more profit.

>>93919776
I could be wrong. But when I contrast how many I've seen to how many AoS ones I've seen; the difference seems pretty stark. So if there are more TOW ones I've missed, its guaranteed I missed a LOT more AoS ones too.

>>93919780
>Everyone here is very far up their own asses.
Definitely true. All we really know about TOW officially is that it is selling well, they are expanding the scope of the project due to its success, and that its attracting new and old players alike (according to their latest financial statement).

>>93919817
Good point, unironically. TOW molds are already made, so no real cost in redoing them. Meanwhile the other game systems requires new molds for new models. Still, its impossible to say.

>>93919813

Nobody knows. They certainly weren't intended to be a full faction when the game released but apparently its doing better than expected so maybe they'll phone them in later.
It won't be until the core 9 AT LEAST, and realistically there's probably a couple years of campaign and splatbook buffer planned. Maybe even Kislev and Cathay will come first.
Basically not for years and it's entirely down to the animosity between GW teams.

>>93919844
Yeah, AoS has a lot of armies so you get a certain base cost baked into each unfortunately (and shelf space). No doubt its why BoC got the axe and shoved over to TOW. Most likely they were dead weight on the profitability of AoS

>>93919883
I think GW pays close attention to the second-hand market for models, and some lines that have a large supply of models available on places like Ebay etc, they have little interest in bringing into ToW. Obviously its no mistake that ToW opened with Tomb Kings and Britonians being two ranges that have small supply and command high prices. Lizardmen, I can easily still get older models cheap without much need for patience or deal-searching. Am I being an idiot and saying something incredibly obvious?

>>93919372
It's nogames all the way down

so it TOW fails, will players revert back to older WHFB rulesets? And if that happens, will people rebase their armies... AGAIN?

>>93912604
Its doing fine, the only issue i have with TOW at the moment is that its monster bash or bust.

>>93920048
I would just play WFB and 40k, fuck AOS

>>93920067
I doubt AoSfags want you desu. AoS was partially made to kick out the screaming grogs to begin with. Grogs are slowly being weeded out in 40k too.

>>93920048

Only if they were stupid enough to rebase the first time.

>>93920110
If you don't play Napoleonics, you're not a Gorgnard.

>>93920048
You didn’t need to rebase for old world, lots of places sell adapter trays so you can keep your lads on the older smaller bases but be properly sized for old world gameplay.
As for your question, I’d just go back to playing older editions, age of sigmar doesn’t interest me at all as a setting, not into the marvel esque planes high fantasy.

>>93920048
it will never fail doomposter

>>93920417
friendly fire! :p

>>93920201
Only trannies play historyshit

>>93920417

Post models with timestamp pls, I need to know how much of your army is p*inted/

>>93912604
They retired several factions because of AoS rather than try to work around it or allow AoS models and Oldworld models to be used in both systems.
Which in the case of Ogres from 2002 they're still the same fucking models

>>93916131
Thirty-five for a single, small hero? What the fuck?

>>93920126
>>93920336
Right, but for people who bought models specifically for TOW, and based them in the larger size, how are they going to play older editions now that they have the larger bases?

>>93920524
makes me think Daemons will never be a thing in old world because there's no way in hell GW would allow someone to have an army that works in THREE systems

>>93919128
This

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>>93920495
>I'll keep moving goalposts until I win
eat shit faggot, I'll post models then you'll start yelling ahhhh contrast paint detected on the wood sections of the wagon!!! I know your kind.

>>93920554
AoS hasn't had a deamon soup army for years now.
Legion was re-flavoured as Belakor mortals

>>93920615
based...so based...

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>>93920545
IIRC older editions had no limit on base size, just a mandatory minimum. You could put your Goblin Wolf Riders on chariot bases, for example, but what good would that do? They'd be less maneuverable with a larger flank to get charged. But, they're still just goblins on wolves.

I know 4th. Edition 40k had the rules for minimum base sizes. So maybe I'm misremembering.

>>93912604
The insane prices

>>93921268
not really its cheaper than before (adjusted for inflation)
f.e. 10 hammeres was 40€ now 20 are 60€.
Battalion Boxes are a pretty good deal too.

ToW is by far the cheapest game from GW at this moment - believe it or not.

If you then factor in the -20% from the FLGS. Super good price

>>93921367
Yeah, there are only a few things (metal) that are wtf price tier ($90 USD Usabti whyyyyyy)

>>93921406
yeah, some old Metal Models are just WTF

>>93921241
Oh that's interesting, well good to know then. By being TOW compatible, you're kind of nerfing yourself in older editions, but maybe its not that bad anyway.

>>93920554
I was initially under the impression that they were not including Warrior of Chaos because they did not want people using warriors of chaos in AoS

>>93916131
and it looks like shit

>>93912662
>They made cavalry as powerful as they have ever been in WHFB
That's my biggest gripe with the game.
What's the fucking point of rank and flank if opponents like bretonia just ignore it by rolling several dice to get to you turn 1 or use flying cav which goes and charges wherever the fuck it wants?
Not to mentions layers of defense, high initiative and the shitty step up rule
I haven't played a single tow games that wasn't a waste 5 hours

>>93927655
Can you explain the new Bretonnian lance system to me?

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>>93912604

I feel like they waited too long. As soon as TW: Warhammer was a smash hit they should have whipped up a quick 7th edition get-you-by ruleset(7.5?) and re-released Battle for Skull Pass and Isle of Blood to cash in on the nostalgia. And during the run-up they could have done a new Mordheim since it's set in the TOW period, has a cult status, and would have given players a chance to whet their appetites and paint up some guys that could be worked into their TOW armies eventually.

And some of the rules changes seem bizarre. EG, they apparently decided that +1 save or a 6+ ward/parry for sword/board troops was too powerful, so now every army either gets 0 incentive for sword/board or they shoehorned in a bonus, eg chaos warriors' ensorcelled blades. The Empire's halberdiers are iconic but seem totally pointless rules-wise and their pistol-carrying skirmish cavalry have a 50% chance to just go nuts and charge in like heavy cavalry.

>>93927678
>7th edition
that would have killed it off a second time. Its also not a good idea to let a game thrive off of artificial hype. At least not between two separate mediums.

>>93927678
Halberds are without a doubt the best infantry weapon. The only thing better imo is the humble Bretonnian polearm, which essentially lets you choose each combat between using it like a spear and a halberd.

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>>93927678
>they shoehorned in a bonus, eg chaos warriors' ensorcelled blades
The fact that pretty much every faction gets an identical rule for that is bizarre, the rules writers obviously understood that sword/shield needed something extra to make them worth considering against other options but for some mystifying reason decided not to add a rule to the actual sword/shield option itself. The way it works is also weirdly specific and nonsensical as well, these units always have a rule that says they have magic swords... but when they carry another sword it stops being magic? But then if they choose to attack with just one of their apparently no-longer-magic swords it's suddenly magic again? It's just plain weird.

>>93916131
How does that mancatcher even work? Old master moulders (even the plastic ones) had chunky but on an idea level functional equipment. Why does everything need to look so gay nowadays

>>93927867

Maybe they should distinguish between a hand weapon and being 'unarmed', where a hand weapon is an actual option. Because then I think +1WS for a single hand weapon (IE- not a dagger or AHW) is a fair alternative to a spear with both offensive and defensive edges.

>>93920437
Name one

herohammer does suck and the flanking issue being unresolved does too but what the fuck are all of you guys doing?
Id get complaining about meta if you are a comp player but its fucking warhammer.
I have a healthy group going thats 60% old wfb people and like 40% newer players and we just dont mash 3 dragons into our 2k army and its all good. Just build narrative lists and enjoy big battles, thats what warhammer fantasy was all about anyway.
You can always play 6th for a meta shift

>>93928093
Post models, I refuse to believe you actually have purchased fugly old 20 year old models

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>>93928093
You're completely correct anon, but your efforts are wasted on these garbage threads. The game is fun if you let it be fun. It's as simple as that.

>>93927867
A lot of the army weapon rules should just apply to all nonmagical weapons. Dark Elves get particularly fucked over here.

>>93919813
If it will live long enough and do well enough then probably yeah, they will get to them eventually. But no plans whatsoever for now

>>93912604
Has something gone wrong?

>>93915363
>Warriors of Chaos were even more popular than 3/4 of those factions.

They also never went out of focused and continued to recieve new models after the end of wfhb.

>>93929589
Its over...

>>93916609
>>raise points costs for models across the board, try and lower the model count


How is this any different than just playing at lower point counts?

>>monsters get no bonus for combat resolution AT ALL, why the fuck does a random monster get close order

Monsters more commonly get fear, terror, and close order than infantry and typically do more damage than they take. If monsters also got yhe same amount of combat rws bonuses that infantry get than infantry would be even worse comparatively to what they are now

>>better rules for regular infantry, perhaps using leadership based tests to achieve results

That will also just make infantry worse lol . And "stun" mechanics suck. Let me play the damn game.

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>>93929589
Nah. Five factions in and we're still selling out. Unlike the new Skaven...

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>>93929644
>Unlike the new Skaven...
I wonder how many potential sales GW has missed out on because of their retarded "no sharing models between systems" autism.

>>93929589
It's just the usual /tg/ version of console wars, aka completely stupid and likely to continue until Hiroshimoot mercy kills the site.

>>93929748
Likely very little. Every Skaven ToW player I know just uses converter trays and runs their rats in both systems.

>>93919610
Everyone who pays attention knows it's 99.999% WHFB 'players' who start shit. It has been for years. I mean, it makes sense. For 8 years AoS players have had a game to play, most of these WHFB 'players' just played TWW and watch some faggot ass lore tubers, then post le epic based and redpilled threads.

>>93929813
This anon is correct. Actual warhammer fantasy enthusiasts are posting in /wfg/, not shitting up the board with these threads.

>>93929636
> the entire second point
What the fuck are you trying to say you idiot. You just spelled out the problem- monsters don't need close order if they are already doing enough damage.

>>93929826
Hahahahaha sure they are.

>>93929857
I invite you to look at that thread before casting judgment.
If I wanted to troll, I would tell you to compare its amount of posts to the age of sigmar thread, but that's not why I'm here.

>>93929644
Why are you lying, anon? 3/5 of the factions in TOW didn't sell out at all.

>>93929866
That'd be a weird troll, since 90% of the time /wfg/ took 4+ days for a new thread while /aosg/ made new bread every other day. That'd just be a self-own, anon.

>>93929866
or I could look at the archive of all the rage bait warhammer threads.

>>93929981
hasn't been like that for about a year
turns out actually having a game being supported brings in fresh blood. Who would have thought? I'm not the one claming any game is dead, by the way. I'm glad both games are active again.

>>93929966
You lack reading comprehension. But in either case, TK, Brets, and WoC's boxes sold out. All of the TK/Bret Range sold out. Over half of the Dwarf and Orc ranges sold out on release (mainly due to their boxes not having great units)

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>>93912604
>what went wrong
No Empire

>>93930073
The dwarfs did sell out in Canada at least, idk about rest of world. All the good units for orcs did too.

>>93930278
Yeah, it was mostly the battalion boxes that didn't move much. The separate units/boxes did great.

>>93930073
WoC box sold out like just now, I think. Which is insane since its been out for quite a while now. And only a few models in the Dwarf and Orc ranges sold out, not "over half". And it was almost exclusively the new hero models.

So again. Only 2/5 of the factions actually sold out.

>>93930073
> all the TK... sold out
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHA.
This is blatantly, pathetically false. TK product was almost always been available. The only thing that 'sells out' is the MTO which they deliberately limit.

>>93929994
Nah, it was dead for the last few months after the first flurry of releases. It revived after...I'd say during the release for WoC.
As an aside, I never implied any game was dead either. I was exclusively referring to /tg/. Which isn't a metric for popularity of anything at all.

>>93930570
Eh, while that anon was exaggerating, much of the TK range was sold out if I remember correctly. It was the other ranges that didn't sell out.

>>93930551
Absolute wrong on the dwarfs specifically. I counted and it was something like 14/25 of the models sold out before release in NA. I watched that one closely. Try again.

>>93930570
MTO by definition cannot sell out. I don't think you even play Warhammer.
>>93930579
Everything except the stuff in the starter box sold out (which is how it goes in 40k too)

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>>93919128
>>93920567
Its a fun game, and all these problems are resolved by playing the game with your actual friends, you know, how warhammer was meant to be played, instead of with some random WAAC tourneyfaggot you met at the LGS.

>>93912604
It was a bad rank and file game released into a bloated market for already gun shy rank and file players. The old models mostly look bad compared to modern sculpts for GW's other games. This means their only available audience in the GW paypigs who buy up everything anyway. Older players being lured back have old collections and 3d prints to make use of. Fortunately for GW their paypig market is huge so despite having a wall no doubt filled with unpainted grey plastic they buy multiple 2,000 point armies to stack up with Age of Darkness, whatever 40k big box of marines has been released recently, and some AoS center pieces.

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>>93931495
lol imagine being poor and having to use copes like paypigging. GW isn't getting a dime from me getting sealed minis from early 2000's on ebay , I just can afford it now that I have a great job and aren't 7-10 years old. have you tried having tangible skills and being rewarded for them so then you can spend money on products you want? fag.

also janitors eat shit and fucking suffocate for deleting my post here, this is a no friends, no games loser thread and you are perpetuating the death of this board by not letting me bully these slack jaw retards into making friends or admitting they are just seething here as a form of personality garnish.

>>93931933
>moderately successful middle class adult massively overpays for something he dreamed of owning in his youth and considers it a flex
many such cases

>>93912636

Not a single soul plays TOW in my area. And they play the goofy shit like Bloodbowl for fuck's sake.

There was a Skeleton box on the shelf for 6 months before it got sent back and replaced with the Dwarfs. Still have the O&G box too lmao.

>>93932355
Tons of people play it in my area, so clearly you are both a liar and a homosexual.

>>93932462

You wanna fuck on the LGS table? I've got this new crab-claw I've wanted to jerk off a bottom with.

But seriously, I have no real vitriol against TOW, but the boxes literally do not move. Not even the usual pick up, look at price, set back down shit. All the 40k boxes aside from the new GSC Battleforce-thing disappear almost immediately - and that GSC box is down to its last one.

>>93932493
I keep hearing people online try to talk about how it’s played yet every single LGS I have been to in the US and UK, it’s just sitting on the shelves untouched.

>>93933469
Because players don't need battalions of orcs or chaos warriors - or other basic troops - we already have tons of them. We need dragons, giants, mangler squigs, trolls etc. - things GW sells ONLY online. That's one. Two - GW started with least popular factions. First really popular faction were Dwarfs followed by WoC. I predict real money will flow when they release High Elves and Empire.

>>93933469

'Playing' and 'buying' are 2 completely separate things. Those boxes are being bought by people who:
A: Didn't already have enough models from the last time they were on sale
B: Are using infantry models in Cavhammer
C: Would prefer to use a 20y/o official model over the dozens of competitors that have popped up in the last decade

>>93934394
>>93934671
So this confirms my suspicions that the game is a flop as it’s only boomers playing with old models. By your logic fucking warmachine and infinity are doing great.

>>93934901
It's not flop because millenials and boomers - you know - people who actually have money - are buying models, just not battalion boxes (and that's not entirely true either - people were buying boxes that had rare models like Bretonnians). People are buying models they couldn't afford when they were kids - dragons, trolls etc. - or following current meta (dragons, giants and cavalry). All of those AREN'T sold in boxes - but are available ONLINE only.

And we all buy books.

>>93935021
>It's not flop because millenials and boomers - you know - people who actually have money
Most people playing Warhammer these days are late millennials or Gen Z
>Just not battalion boxes
So we’re moving the goal posts now?
>We all buy books
yet the books are not sold out????
Nothing you have said is beating what I am saying. The game is a wet fart that has failed. AoS, even with it’s troubled start is still doing better.

>>93935021
>People are buying models they couldn't afford when they were kids
This is very open ended and not verifiable. One model here and there does not indicate a game’s success.

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>>93935021
How do you know what is or isn't selling ONLINE ONLY?
You work at GW warehous or Nothingham post office?
With boxes in stores you just need to go there and see a pile of tow infantry units

>>93935118
>Most people playing Warhammer these days are late millennials or Gen Z

You just said yourself that it's boomers that play this game. Make up your fucking mind.

>So we’re moving the goal posts now?
Are you dense? Battalion boxes are something like 10% of current TOW range - and contain most unwanted, common in collections and weak units in the game right now. No wonder they don't sell like hot pancakes - and I'm 100% sure GW doesn't expect them to sell like this either. They were probably released so LGSes and GW stores could have something on their TOW shelf. Real money come from ONLINE store (that AREN'T AVAILABLE on shelf in stores, GOT THAT?) that is made of 90% of DESIRED MODELS LIKE FUCKING DRAGONS (current meta). Is it that hard to understand? And they sell very well, because most of them are sold in few days after being available and get back to "temporarily not available".

>>93935153
----> >>93935157


>>93935133
That's the one reason (the one I'm buying TOW minis), but the second one is meta thing.

>>93935153
Big chunks of the online-only range being out of stock is a pretty good way of figuring out what's selling.

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>>93914615
real fucking simple. drastically lower the model count of armies. like imagine this box x2 is whats on the table for a high elf vs skaven army.

for instance a Chaos Warriors army should be like 45 dudes ( 10 infantry, 10 infantry, 10 elite infantry, 5 cavalry, 5 cavalry, 3 monsters, 2 heroes). meanwhile a horde army skaven or night goblin would be like 80 to 100 models.

also start collecting boxes of like 30 to 40 models should the entry point, not battalions of like 70+ models.

>>93935118
Also - like I said, cavalry is current meta now. Chaos knights/chosen are available ONLY in battalion box and surprise surprise - WoC battalion box is sold out everywhere!

>>93935157
If you are just going to insult and get angry when someone tells you they disagree with your view point then I am done with your shitty behavior. Fuck off.

>>93935267
I keep telling you that most of revenue GW gets from TOW is online store, yet you keep talking about boxes not being sold. Even a saint would get mad!

>>93935209
so you want to play a board game. Aos and 40k is there for you.

>>93935209
>>93935320

>>93918477

Anon, I'm sorry that happened to you, but what does that have to do with tabletop wargames?

>>93935793
He is just upset that his game is being killed off by a better game

>>93921367
>20 models for $60 is a super good price
You GW chimps are so mindbroken it's not even funny anymore.

>>93936166
Show me a game system where I don’t have to deal with insane amount of flash or toxic print chemicals to assemble models that go together easily. Now show me that game that has miniatures with the same level of detail as GW minis.

>>93935209
You're talking about 1000-1500 point games. That's fine anon, that's a perfectly good way to play the game. 2000 points is the competitive standard for... reasons... but lots of people prefer playing smaller and faster games.
However, even at 2k points, the armies aren't that big. They only got stupid big in 8th, but in every edition prior to that armies were reasonable. Hell, 40k has higher model counts than TOW does right now.

>>93927655

Why does it take you 5 hours to play a game? I think your problem is just that you're stupid.

>>93936943
Exactly!
This stupid talk that other games are cheaper is just bullshit!
Of course 3d printing is cheaper if you do it yourself, but the quality is also shit and the resin breaks in no time - once it falls down, everything splinters, just like failcast. And it's toxic without end! Anyone who says otherwise has no idea and should inform themselves.

I don't know of ANY other company like GW that makes nearly as good figures as GW - but those who are always shouting about it can't provide any evidence to the contrary... as always. Lots of air nothing behind it.

>>93936943
victrix models easily, $48 for 18 knights is insane value

>>93912604
>what went wrong

They charged modern prices for 30 year old models that are used in a game with rules that are totally inferior to AOS and ASOIAF

>>93937510
>everything splinters, just like failcast

I don't know what kind of no model retard you are, or why you're trying to chase grog clout, but finecast was not brittle, it was soft rubbery garbage.

>>93937859
It’s true, AoS is the superior deckbuilding card game, tow never stood a chance.

>>93937859
It is frankly stupid how much they are charging for models that not only are worse than everything else on the market but also cost more.

Grogs are deluded and stupid and for all of their talk about soul. Nobody sane is going to buy 40 year old Ork models instead of any of the countless alternatives, up to and including just using AoS models. That's not even getting into armies like Bretonnia which you can literally proxy with actual historical armies you can buy for 1/10th of the price.

>>93921367
>20 hammeres was 40€ now 20 are 60€
I can get 20 Dwarfs carrying two handed weapons for 35$ from mantic. That's on the expensive side compared to, say, any random historical game where I can get about 60 figures, all about as good if not better than most of the ToW range for 40$.

>ToW is by far the cheapest game from GW at this moment - believe it or not.
No, it's a rank and flank game based around massive armies. A actual cheap game is, say, Kill team or Warcry. Even by comparison, AoS is way cheaper going by what you need for a actual army.

>>93939423
I'm going to buy chaos models from 1988 and 1990 if they could be bothered to sell them and I'm not a grog.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat2004cgchaos/index.htm
Just look at the collector's range of models in this catalogue. I've been hunting these down for years now on second hand websites and they're vanishingly rare. GW could make a mint by casting these again at reasonable prices. Hell, their MTO scheme is already doing that for more relatively modern models.
These older models are simply in a different and in my opinion better style. The new plastic stuff is just too much. It's overdone.

>>93939456
>GW could make a mint by casting these again at reasonable prices.
Yes, reasonable prices. As in: Not what they are charging for ToW models. I wouldn't mind buying a Realm of Chaos metal models for, like, 3-4$ bucks. It's a cute thing to put among your collection of newer actually good looking models as a joke.

Either way, as a actual army to buy into it's not going to happen for 99% of customers.

>>93939496
Those RoC models regularly go for $50-200 online these days and are hard to find. If they were priced like the metal models GW is currently selling for chaos are (between $18 and $37) and I could actually buy the ones I wanted instead of just getting what I could find I would happily buy them at that price. $3-4 isn't realistic, it's not going to happen. Even the cheapest minis available aren't that cheap, let alone old and rare ones.
And they aren't bad looking. They look awesome and they're fun to paint too. I should know - I have some and I use them as characters for my chaos army.

>>93939520
>$3-4 isn't realistic, it's not going to happen
Correct. Which is why ToW while never be all that successful. You can't appeal entirely to weirdos.

I can buy better looking historical metal models for 3-4$ bucks easily, by the way.

>>93939542
But you can't buy better looking chaos models. They don't exist. Go play your historicals, more power to you. I've been playing TOW with about a dozen people at my LGS, and that's all the success it needs to have for me to be satisfied.
Maybe it'll get more people to play the actually good editions, like 3rd and 6th.

>>93939559
>But you can't buy better looking chaos models.
I can, they are called "AoS slaves to darkness". Even outside of that, plenty of proxies exist that look way better.

>I've been playing TOW with about a dozen people at my LGS, and that's all the success it needs to have for me to be satisfied.
That's perfectly valid. Not going to dispute that.

>Maybe it'll get more people to play the actually good editions, like 3rd and 6th.
My local group had people playing fifth edition, so certainly possible.

>>93927944
It doesn't, it's a retarded weapon made by some fag that doesn't even understand how the tool they've been tasked to sculpt works. The claws seemingly have no way to enclose the victim, the main purpose of the mancatcher, and the trigger for the opening mechanism itself seems to be one that would require pulling instead of pushing, plus it's at the fucking head of the polearm for some reason so you can't even use it as a polearm, you'd have to be really up close to even use it. Even for magic crack rats that design is really retarded

>>93927944
>How does that mancatcher even work?
Are you actually this stupid?

>Why does everything need to look so gay nowadays
Ah, you are.

>play a game of ToW
>run dwarfs against Bretts
>since I'm infantry and not doing a faggot box list with gyros, I'm not allowed to play the game
>get cycle charged to death with every combat

I cannot believe I waited years for this shit

>>93939702
>Dwarfs
>Infantry spam
Bring some fucking guns, you dolt.

>>93939702
I will say, the quality of a game of TOW varies a lot based on how competitive the list your opponent brings as well as the match-up. Brettonnians and cavalry in general are incredibly strong and dwarfs (and any infantry list, if we're being honest) don't really have an answer to them. Then again, they never really did, even in older editions. Your best bet is artillery, unfortunately.

>>93912636
Age of Sigmar isn't popular because normalfags don't want to stock their armies with Ratslayyer Doommkkilleers and Skiwarded Lyghtbryngers from the Luminarch Realm Lords faction that are just dwarfs who use elven magic (but it's spelled duardian, aelvian and magickk for extra faggotry).

Skeleton, tomb, knight, dwarf- these are all very straightforward concepts.

>>93912926
tow is meant to be the hh to aos's mainline, it isn't supposed to sell out. Most of what GW is selling is old stock from 20 years ago that was just sitting in warehouses as part of armies like the Cities of Sigmar, now repackaged.

>>93939716
>nomodels secondary trying to tell me to take any of the useless dwarf artillery

Please read my post again about not playing the msu box and then read the rulebook you filthy fucking secondary

>>93939803
HH actually has broad appeal though.

>>93939793
>Skeleton, tomb, knight, dwarf- these are all very straightforward concepts.
Which youtuber gave you this opinion? Anways I already got my generic looking fantasy stuff from oathmark and whatever I was lacking from mantic or reaper.

>>93939804
Besides artillery there really isn't anything you can do to stop cav spam lists. Dwarfs aren't really supposed to fight brets, you guys are supposed to be bros. I think that anon meant thunderers and quarrellers, though. Like the dwarfs with guns and crossbows.

>>93939825
Sir, dwarf artillery is kind of shit
I had a grudge thrower and a cannon. I think it was 1500 point game?

I think I got a total of 50 points back for all 3 of them.

Whoever came with the idea that a dwarf CANNON is only ap -2 should be hanged.

The game is dogshit I have no idea what you want me to tell you.

>>93939825
To add on thunderers are a complete waste of points and quarreller spam is viable, unfortunately you'd be boxing to use that effectively and that's gay

>>93939842
My only advice is to ask you to play games against other armies before casting judgment. It's a good time when you're not playing against a skew list or a skew army. Then again, my track record for TOW with my chaos warriors isn't great so I really shouldn't be giving out advice. 0/4 so far against empire, tomb kings, dark elves and high elves. But, I still had fun, even while losing.
I guess... keep playing? Maybe it'll get better?

>>93939822
This.

Gw can't sell generic fantasy slop anymore. It's too common.

Its mainly aimed at old people who find they now have the means to buy what they always wanted but couldn't afford back in the day. Geedubs is now an old enough company to get this second childhood market but AoS doesn't offer those people anything. Hence it sells mainly in the huge boxes because they don't want to "collect" they just want it to arrive tomorrow in the post.

I keep saying they, I mean me obviously. I'm never going to actually play a game of it obviously but I'll still get the big rulebook thats like my WFB big rulebook I got for Christmas in 1987 and look at the pictures.
>>93939793
Age of Sigmar was done to create defensible trademarks and IP. Their problem with elf and dwarf was always prior art but don't think they didn't try, ludicrous as this sounds. In the event it arguably over-succeeded in the sense they created stuff nobody in their right mind would want to steal or license.

>>93935209
I tend to agree with smaller point games.
that said, i think you're putting this mostly at the feet of warhammer 8th, that edition heavily incentivized large blocks of troops.
you want 40-50 guys in a blob because 10 wide allowed you to fight in an extra rank, you could stack buffs like crazy and you had a better chance of fighting back if attacked as people stepping forward took at turn to get ready to fight. I need not remind people of the nonsense that was telicus in a seaguard block

but even GW showed off in battle reports plague mocks with the giant censor, a big fearless frenzied mob with poisoned attacks and some armour ignoring hits from mount.

steadfast meant that these things could really grind as outranking your enemy effectively made you stubborn, even if they were flanked, hell especially if they were flanked as a unit is almost always wider then it is tall. and yes this applies if you were engaged in two fronts.

Magic is made to be the horde killer, and monsters were given I-11 attacks to try and sort out the issue of the horde but in generally you're incentivized to build 5x5 or 5x10

with just 5 regiments you're sitting at 125 models before lords and specialist pieces. if you're playing the base line point value of around 8 that's 1k on the dot and you have enough points to cram in artillery, a specialist regiment, bling out a lord and get some cav or something, your core tax well and truly met.

>>93939822
>Which youtuber gave you this opinion? Anways I already got my generic looking fantasy stuff from oathmark and whatever I was lacking from mantic or reaper.
Imagine being such a boring GW shill you think people need to get opinions from youtube.
>from third companies
Cool shit then obviously you're not buying age of sigmar anyway and therefore your opinion is irrelevant to everything.

I will never understand this GW fan mindset where they want things to be constantly out of stock and sold out. That's generally terrible for business and just goes to show how GW's production line is fucked six ways to Sunday. Typically people want the products they like to be available for them to purchase, which I guess shows that these people never had any intention to buy the models in the first place. Was it that one 8ed 40k box set that started this obsession with stuff going out of stock?

>>93939925
HOLY FUCK YOU PEOPLE ARE SO NIMB WITTED WHEN YOU HAVE TO STRAY OFF THE NPC SCRIPT.
>YOUR A GW SHILL FOR SHOWCASING PRODUCT THAT ISNT GW, ALSO PRODUCT IS BAD BECAUSE ITS NOT GW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
clearly you are in dire need of a youtuber to hand hold you because holy fuck are you dumb.

>>93939949
>nimb witted
AI post, didn't read.

>>93939874
Chaos is always a hard army to pilot, so i'd not be too worried about that. in my own experience it has to be very inflexible and has to commit and it doesn't really have enough numbers and has to really rely on magic to make up for it's lack of range fire.

mind you that was 7th and i was a teen entering an old hobby.

that said there are some really fucking awful choices, artillery's total nerf being one of them,

>>93939842
It's not just dwarf artillery and i agree i think i've done more damage with our guns back when we had to guess the range. Dwai Zharr weaponry is similarly fucked. the dreadmortar for instance is s3(6), S3(6) bolt throwers are likely stronger

>>93939803
>it isn't supposed to sell out
What retarded shit is this? Why isn't it "supposed" to sell out? And in what world do you live in are these models just old stock from decades ago that was sitting around? These are old models, but they were created recently using old molds is all. That's why some models aren't coming back since they lost the molds for them.

>>93939930
It's because nobody knows what defines success is anymore and they all want to find it somehow to make some kind of political point.

You can see this on other boards as well. It's why /a/ is obsessed with Blueray sales or /v/ with steam numbers.

>>93919209
The last 40k box didn't...

>>93920067
If you play modern 40k, then you play a much, much worse game than AOS.

>>93920048
>implying
Anyone who rebased their models is silly. The game works just fine with the old base sizes. As for your question, I'm going to go back to playing 6th ed. like I did before. Hopefully some of the TOW players at my LGS will do the same. My chaos army won't be left on the shelf, they will continue to fight in glorious battles no matter the edition. Maybe I'll get people to play 3rd and 5th too... I'll even try 8th if I'm really desperate. I just like Warhammer Fantasy. It's my favourite wargame.

>>93920048
Anyone who rebased doesn't deserve to play a good edition

>>93941964
Ogre bros...

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>>93912604
didnt this not even retcon the smegmar times? whats the point? they didnt really seem interesting in keeping the same SOVL of warhammer fantasy anyway

>>93942097
SAAAAR WE MAST RETURN TO OUR SOVL COW DUNG PITS, SAAARRRR.

>>93942170
?

>>93936166
I always assumed A LOT of people just claimed their package never arrived and basically just doubled up on figures making them slightly more normal priced.

>>93937722
That’s a model company not a game

>>93941964
I rebased units that couldn't fit in adapters - like mangler squigs.

I have a big O&G army from back in the day (I also have other armies, but O&G was always my main force). So technically I didn't have to buy anything, save the books (and some trays/adapters), to play.
When TOW came out, I immediately bougth rulebook and Ravening Hordes books.
Then I bought 4 night goblin bosses to be able to field many night goblin units, because you need at least one night goblin character for each night goblin unit (with fanatics). Then I bought AoS squig herd to field them in TOW (I don't know - does it count?). Now I plan to buy troll hag and arcane journal to have rules for troll horde (I know, I know - I have "free" pdf). I also bought some new paints I wouldn't buy if not for TOW.

So - was TOW a flop in my case? I don't think so. I'm a grog with massive army so I didn't have to buy an army - and yet I still gave my money to GW.

>>93944663
Have you actually played the game, or are you just buying Aos stock?

>>93944716
Yes I did. I had 5 games so far. But I admit, I'm more a collector than a player, but I do play from time to time.

>>93939727
8th edition made infantry blocks good but that led to the game revolving around giant infantry deathstars and the spells that could instantly kill them.

The thing I don't really get is the battalion boxes. They really do seem like just a clearing of stock. Like the chaos battalion box is decent but it has way too fucking many chaos warriors.

I've heard arguments they keep characters out so you can buy multiples but no chaos army ever will need 64 chaos warriors. If it just swapped one unit of those warriors out for like, marauders and a sorcerer it would be so good.

>>93946379
battalions are straight downgrade from what the previous army boxes were too, so much more diverse stuff which was a dream for hobbying.

>>93913096
That sounds like anecdotal evidence, you sure have sources to back your claim up

>>93946379
my chaos army needs more than 64 warriors, but I'm also a retard and my lists aren't competitive.
The only reasonable explanation for why the boxes are how they are is that they're intended to be the start of a collection and not a competitive army list in a box.

>>93946493
>my chaos army needs more than 64 warriors
bro... how...

>>93946528
Well I'd have at least 15 for each mark, preferably more so each regiment can have a number of models equal to that gods' number or a multiple of said number (8/16/24 for khorne, for example), then I've got a regiment of undivided chosen warriors that'll be at least 11 strong which I already have painted. That'd be at least 71 warriors. So far I've got 15 khorne warriors, 11 undivided warriors and 18 tzeentch warriors, but the tzeentch warriors aren't painted yet, so I still need at least 14 nurgle warriors and 12 slaanesh warriors. Obviously, I'd only get to use all of them in a 3000 point game, but it'd be pretty sweet. Plus, I'd have a bunch of differently marked chaos warriors (not to mention champions & sorcerers too, maybe some knights as well) painted up for smaller scale games like the RoC narrative campaigns, Path to Glory, etc.
Semi-related, but this is why I vastly prefer the older chaos warrior sculpts. Their poses are less expressive and unique, so it's easier to collect and paint a lot of them without having clones across your army.

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>>93912604
Its only fanbase lives in places that can't afford it

AOS is just the better game. That's just facts. They're probably the best wargame rules ever written and unlike TOW you only need a handful of models instead of a huge army. Rank and flank is also just gay. Too many rules related to movement and wheeling and oblique movement and all that horseshit. AOS Chads stay winning.

>>93946603
>unlike TOW you only need a handful of models instead of a huge army. Rank and flank is also just gay.
I know you're just shitposting but a big problem with TOW currently is half your army can be just 2-3 models and rank and flank doesn't work at all.

>>93946569
I feel like you'd do better playing older editions to match those older sculpts.

>>93946625
remove the rank but keep all of the issues that come with the flank, kek.

>>93946603
Have you even played Warhammer Fantasy? Movement is incredibly simple when you actually get to playing. Everything you need to know to play is in the core rulebook, you don't have to keep track of anything else. 90% of the rules could be summarized on 8 pages.

>>93946603
>probably the best wargame rules ever written
AoS is better than TOW but come on now.

>>93930996
The only correct answer. However I still find it hard to play this game. Ever since 8th was axed my friends and I continued to play it. This edition is just missing something in my opinion.

>>93946634
No? They're selling the 2004 chaos warriors for TOW. I also have some of the 1997 sculpts, as well as a few 1988 sculpts that I use as characters, but they're all warhammer fantasy. I use them for every edition that I play.

I was looking through the Chaos Arcane Journal. Putting aside the huge misfire of the Heralds of Darkness list, are these new monsters - Galrauch, the Warpfire Dragon, the Gigantic Chaos Spawn - even worth playing? They have no protection against monster slayer, so one lone Bretonnian Duke or Baron is probably going to dice them up.

>>93946690
I doubt you'll get much constructive advice here. /wfg/ exists.
As for what I think, anything is worth playing if you like it. People have been saying the warpfire dragon is strong because it lets you get a dragon and a level 2 wizard without taking points way from your lords and heroes. Gigantic chaos spawn is a meme, just like the regular chaos spawn, but it's a fun meme. The model looks nice too. Galrauch is Galrauch. He's never been bad.

Also, just saying, Skin Wolves should have gotten Foe Render rather than Blood Rage.

>>93946690
The dragons are all meta picks. Meta lists include 3 of them. And yeah Heralds was phoned in, on the other hands Wolves of the Sea are probably the coolest faction of infamy, tied with maybe Bret Exiles.

>>93946720
Oh lol, I thought this was /wfg/. My bad. FWIW I think the giant chaos spawn is the best of the new monsters on first read: 3D6 movement over base 2D6 spawn movement is HUGE, he's around 160-170 points, so it doesn't matter that much if he just gets iced by some monster slayer setup (which probably costs around 2x as much as he does) and he can be T6 5+ save 5+ regen with Unbreakable which means he'll tie up regular infantry basically forever.

>>93946725
Yes I like the Sea Wolves list. It's a little bizarre because the Berserkers and Huscarls show the TOW designers clearly know what it takes to put a regular infantry/cavalry unit into 'good' tier in their system... they just decided not to to do with much of the base chaos list, lmao. I think Heralds is really a fusing of two things which should have been given their own distinct concept base: one a 'Swords of Chaos' super-elite primarily mounted army representing like your ultra-tough bodyguard corps of a supreme chaos lord, and one a grouping of the different gods together for a singular purpose a la a 'Great Heathen Army' or whatever you'd want to call it.

I don't think it would be hard to make the latter work. Keep the restriction of matching marks to characters, but give a discount on the marks and introduce some kind of animosity system where close units of nonmatching gods have to test Ld but if they pass they get a competitive advantage like reroll 1s to hit/wound or reroll on eye of the gods. But trying to do it alongside the super elite cav army was a mistake.

>>93942097
The point is if you want to play warhammer fantasy, a game very different from AoS, then you...can play warhammer fantasy AND give GW your hard earned money

>>93935209
So, basically, what fantasy was prior to 8th, or maybe in a way, 7th? Back when we had sane army sizes, a Battalion box got you a 1000 point army that you just had to buy a character or two for and could easily (and cheaply) expand to 1500 with no issue?

>>93929589
Nothing. For some insane reason, AoS fans are shitting themselves over TOW/WHFB making a return.

>>93927663
same as the old lance system, they deploy in a column and when they charge every model in the front rank and every model on the outer file of each flank can attack. So you deploy your Brets 3 wide and 5 deep. You get 11 models that can attack on a 3 wide frontage, which thanks to the retarded return to 7th's Fighting Rank and Chargers Go First rules means that a charging Brett Lance kills everything that could fight back, except maybe the champion, before it can fight. They then win combat by 8 or something crazy, the enemy auto breaks and is run down and destroyed.
What they needed to do was to make Spears and other polearms counter cavalry in some way.

>>93935320
Both are shit games. WHFB is a rank and flank game, not some formationless "push the big models into the middle and make fighty noises" childrens game.

>>93946774
I was writing a long post about why the gigantic chaos spawn isn't better than regular chaos spawn when used as a screening or a chaff unit, but the god damn box closed. In sumamary, T5 vs. T6 is only a noticeable improvement against S4 or better hits, but the regen save makes the gigantic chaos spawn's 6 wounds versus an equivalent points-cost amount of regular chaos spawn's 9 wounds more or less equal. The gigantic chaos spawn is comparable to a unit of 3 chaos spawn in close combat (D6+1 WS3 S6 vs. 3d6 WS3 S4, D6 stomps vs. 3x1 stomps; they both have armour bane (2)), but they both still have I3 so they're going to get chopped to pieces either way. However, the gigantic chaos spawn has that gnashing maw weapon which it can use once per turn to strike last at S6 AP-2 and recover a wound if it causes a model to lose a wound.
It's not bad. I might even consider getting one, but it's not incredible. Dragons are still going to be insanely strong and chaos spawn are unfortunately reduced to a unit you bring for fun. Which is perfectly fine, of course. But even the gigantic ones aren't that good.
As a point of comparison, the warpfire dragon strikes 5 times at S6, has a movement of 6, can fly 10 inches (that means it can march-fly 20 inches), has 6 wounds, can be a level 2 wizard with access to 2 of the best lores in the game and has a 4+/5+(against magical and flaming attacks only)/5+ save, AP-2 claws, cancels out ward saves for anything within 3" of it and has a magical artillery attack that shoots a 3" blast template that inflicts D3+1 multiple wounds and if it misfires the dragon only takes one wound instead of rolling on the misfire table. For 375 points.
How in the name of God did you come to the conclusion that the plucky little gigantic chaos spawn was even comparable to that?

>>93946665
Name one wargame better than AOS ruleswise

>rank and flank
>models are so fucking huge there is no room to flank most the time
>Game is focused around monster or hero or flying units that just charge you head on anyways

TOW is utter garbage lmao it's really shown how stupid "muh linehammer" criticisms were

>>93946625
yeah but I think a lot of that is an unfortunate problem of both the scale of the miniatures (15mm would work much better) and the scale (?) of the game, where fixed sizes for units a la kings of war would work best.

>>93947405
middle earth battles is the best game by gw
aos is garbage for retards

>>93947405

here is only GW wargames because you guys tend to be GW pay piggies

MESBG
War of the ring
Epic 40k
Warmaster
man o' war
Warhammer 40k up until 9th ed
Especially Battlefleet gothic
Titanicus

if you include GW skirmish
Necromunda old and new
Mordheim
Gorkamorka

if you want to go outside of GW,

Battletech (but but grog rules) yeah they're fun.
Bolt action, actually refreshing compared to current 40k
a Song of Ice and fire. very nice actually i suggest it tends to be cheap for quality too)
Warzone, 1 2 and maybe 3 haven't tried it's finished rules
conquest
Infinity
oathmark

AoS is a rules light system and it's main benefit is it's popular.
I don't think it's much of a wargame, it's a board game

>>93949007
you're smoking actual crack cocaine if you don't think whfb 3rd, 5th and 6th were good systems

>>93949007
>calls others pay piggies
>40k
>fucking mordheim of all things, the most dated game thats covted for no good reason other than a incestual fanbase

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>>93946578
Why do you lie?

>>93949043
if i said that there would be argument about WHFB but you're right.

>>93949440
I just checked Google Trends, and my results mirrored the anon you responded to. Not yours. Why are you lying here? Or did you use some bizarre metric?

>>93949064
Warcry is better then mordheim. In the past, what made Mordheim so popular is that it acted as a start for a fantasy army. Warcry is the same and will be remembered the same along mordheim.

>>93912604
>Change Bretonnian lore so it appeals to modern audience
>Strong Independent female knights who complain about how evil Feudalism is!

I mean they keep shitting on the lore of the setting.

>>93951111
You'd think average vidya player would identify with Bretonia's newfound romantic feelings for teenage boys

>>93912604
They should've added an amazon (8-10ft tall women) faction that lives in the southern desert that frequently come to bretonnia in search of men to make husbands. Who also make all the bretonnian women jealous because they get completely mogged by the amazons sexiness wise (bigger boobs, bigger butts, wider hips, thicker thighs, more muscled)
Yes, this is just the Gerudo and no I wont fap before posting.

>>93951111
Bretonnia always had female knights.

>>93951555
Not!Joan of Arc was a one-off, and just like the real one, was only cool because she was a one-off. No one wants to see female knights or male damsels, kek.

>>93951564
>Not!Joan of Arc was a one-off
Still existed.
If one exists, then there are others.

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>>93949601
Thats becose you are looking only at people who type "age of sigmar" vs "warhammer fantasy" yesterday that is a very small set of data if you compare topics wich also takes related searches, if someones looks up skaventide or averland paint tutorial it doesn't count,here is the map using topics for start of the year to now.

Only real issue with the game is infantry not being very useful compared to monster and cav spam.
Fix that and we are good.

>>93946578
>>93949440
>>93949601
>>93951748
I don't even think google trends is a good metric anyways because the internet was not as prolific in Fantasy's hayday but Fantasy also has Vermintide or Total War to cause people to search for things like lore or the tabletop game.
How much of these searches are from people playing tabletop isn't quantifiable. Sales numbers are going to be the best metric to use for this reason. Both games are doing well but ToW is growing pretty quickly it seems.

>>93951799
Ofcorese google trends isn't that usefull or reliable to mesure the tabletop popularity I think both games will grow but ToW will grow faster, also when looking at sales we have to take people who buy AoS minis to use in fantasy specially before the ToW came out.

>>93951614
bro literally be like
>Joan of ark existed there for there were woman knights everywhere

>>93952923

Louen the Orcslayer knighted several Noblewomen.

>>93946880
Why was it necessary to roll out a new ruleset and change base size to be incompatible with old editions?

>>93953033
the new base sizes are better though. my orc boyz actually fit.

>>93953033
To make it as difficult as possible for people to play with their old armies in the hopes they'll buy new ones.

>>93912636
I have a store and fucking nobody buys old world after the initial wave of excitement ended. They put out way too much at once and the finecast/forgeworld minis have killed any interest people have.

>>93953033
I imagine the primary thought behind the larger bases was to make it easier to rank up models rather than a conspiracy against the very small number of people still playing older editions of WHFB.

>>93954083
Uh huh. And they don't sell wet palettes because they're really concerned about paint over-dilution.

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>>93951748
That doesn't make sense. We are talking about the IPs which people searched for, adding in other topics on the matter is immaterial to people searching for the IP itself. People introduced to WHFB via Total War for example would still search via the likes of "Warhammer Fantasy" if they were interested in the tabletop.

TLDR; people are more interested in AoS because they actually search for the game when compared to Warhammer Fantasy.

>>93954182
>Fantasy mogs ToW in search results
NTA but didn't expect that desu.

>>93953033
So you buy new minis, it ain't rocket science, you just gotta think like someone who wants to take someone else's money no matter how scummy

>>93954083
>make it easier to rank up models
imagine if they actually designed miniatures to be used as proper rankable game pieces instead of forcing constant scale creep...

>>93953752
I have a store and it’s what you describe but with age of sigmar. It’s all old world now. My uncle owns 2 stores and he says the same. It’s over for AoS.

>>93957792
My unles owns your uncle and says he's a pathological lier who sucks cocks for $5

>>93912604
Old models
Antiquated ruleset
Relying on TWW crowd
AoS also exists to poach anyone interested in fantasy settings

>>93949007
None of these are better than AOS

>>93957758
Some of the worst offenders for being difficult to rank up are the old models, like the jigsaw puzzle that is a unit of Empire spearmen on 20mm bases.

>>93959553
I don't know about the rules, but AoS obviously has terrible lore. For some people it doesn't matter as all they need is a game with good ruleset (which I won't judge, since I haven't played most of those games mentioned above or I did play earlier iterations of those games), but most of us care about the fluff. AoS in that regard is just a clusterfuck. And it was like that since the begionning. Meanwhile Fantasy lore is pretty cool (with some exceptions concerning End Times) - and wh40k lore was decent until Cawl and primaris marines. So no - AoS is NOT better game, for a great game needs to have a good fluff so you actually care about /yourdudes/.

>>93960032
t. no games.

>>93960265
Wrong. I've played WFB since 5th edition till TOW, played Wh40k through many editions, I played first iterations of Necromunda and Man-o-War. Plus I own games like Space Hulk, Blackstone Fortress and Overkill.

>>93919056
>Warhammer was a failure, it was only top 5 most of the time
>Age of Smegma is a hit, it's in the top 5 some of the time
t. every single one of you fucking trannies. There was obviously a massive push for the current edition and it has just as obviously failed to sell

>>93919318
>Limited number run or not, the point is that every new edition the AoS new edition box never sells out. Ever
Yes anon, because no one fucking wants it

>>93918477
Imagine projecting this hard and not realising it

>>93960032
>Aos lore was a clusterfuck
That's been the case for every Warhammer setting. Both fantasy and 40k are so thoroughly raped by retcon after retcon that the settings aren't even functioning at any logical level, fantasy barely had a coherent world when you actually delved into it constantly contradicting itself even before endtimes (6th edition was an entirely different world from the previous editions with the introduction of grimderp that bled into 40k), and I genuinely don't know where to begin with 40k.

>>93960624
The difference is the lore of WFB and 40k was good at least at some point, while AoS fluff was terrible from the beginning and it's still bad. Let's face it - it was designed by people who were responsible for End Times, primaris marines and Belisarius Cawl - in short: talentless hacks.
Just look at the number of lore videos - there are tens of thousands lore videos about WFB (TOW) and 40k - while AoS is barely touched. People don't care about it, because it's BAD.

>>93960667
>The difference is the lore of WFB and 40k was good at least at some point
No, they weren't. WHFB was literally just a Tolkien ripoff, and that was when it actually had lore instead of it just being a way to sell DnD models.
WH40k was just a spoof of Thatcher England filled with homoerotic undertones for the Space Marines. This golden age of lore never existed. Or it existed alongside the cringiest retardation.
As an aside, just because something is more mainstream doesn't mean that its good at all. WH40k got the most popular AFTER Cawl and the Primaris emerged, genius. And Warhammer Fantasy became more popular AFTER the End Times.

>>93960961
>just a Tolkien ripoff
You are saying that as it's a bad thing. Well you are wrong. It's a good thing.

>AFTER Cawl and the Primaris emerged
Cawl and primaris lore is universally hated, for it sounds like a BAD fanfiction. If it's true (doubtful) that wh40k got more popular after Cicatrix Maledictum opened - it has nothing to do with Cawl and primaris lore.

>And Warhammer Fantasy became more popular AFTER the End Times.

Probably because Total War and Vermintide games. That's the proof it had good lore, that was attractive to be implemented in the game.

>>93939702
if bretts charged you and won, you built a shit list

how the fuck did you manage that? dwarf combat bricks, unless built wrong on purpose, should've turned heavy cav to paste.

or, in short, skill issue

>>93960961
>>93961028
I really wish people would stop comparing warhammer at all with tolkien, its almost insulting to the man. Im not even the biggest fan of it but the setting of warhammer has always been a whore in the face of tolkeins attempt at pulling for a new mythology.

>>93961173
anon dwarves dont have much to counter their mobility

>>93960961
>tolkien ripoff
You know nothing about Warhammer Fantasy.

>>93961698
I'd argue he knows nothing about tolkein, its not hard to get warhammer fantasy, its slop.

>>93961028
Its 100% true that WH40k took off after Primaris and Cawl came around, anon. And you have zero logic behind denying that it was a big part of the interest by the mainstream. Dismissing it is pure copium on your part.
>That's the proof it had good lore, that was attractive to be implemented in the game.
So WHFB had shit games for some 30 years, but a few good games garnering mainstream interest is proof that it had good lore? Amazing. I guess DnD had some of the most amazing lore since it had a bunch of amazing games too.
Your entire concept of good lore is just it being popular in the mainstream. I guess McDonald's is great food because its also popular with the mainstream lmao

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>>93961698
I love WHFB for what it was; junk food. I am not delusional and claiming that it was this amazing thing that wasn't appreciated for its time. Its a kitchen sink filled with slop from far more interesting franchises thrown together for fun.

>>93961991
>I guess McDonald's is great food because its also popular with the mainstream lmao

Yes it is. Food is popular IF it's tasty and McDonald's clearly is very popular. Same with everything else: the movie is good no matter how many critics say it's bad IF the audience likes it, the painting is utter shit no matter how many sophisticated art critics say it's the peak of art IF the audience looks at it and thinks it sucks etc. Anyone who thinks differently is brainwashed and/or is braindead.

>>93962008
Dick measuring contests with insanely elaborate ornate drip is very much /his/ thoughever. It's also sovlful

>>93964850
That drip is meant for showing off in tourneys where nobility can show off, not on the battlefield. And nowhere this ornate of impractical. At least 99% of the time.
Also, you missed the point. The point is that WHFB just takes classic fantasy tropes and then gives them big hats (not /his/) and makes them angry. That's it. That's not lore, or sovl; that's just a kitchen sink.