Nothing could be more antithetical to proper class distinction than "I cast fire bolt/lightning bolt/eldrich blast" every round for 1d8 damage making the wizard indistinguishable from the fighter and turning magic into a joke.What's the answer for crybabies who have a tantrum if they're not "doing something exciting" every round? The real answer is let them throw daggers or shoot a crossbow (even that being disallowed in AD&D and B/X).But if you must humor them, the flavorful and congruous answer is alchemy. Expand your rules to let them make and carry a reasonable number of flasks of Greek fire, smoke pots or slippery oil for escapes, mustard gas clouds, firecrackers for distraction or surprises, etc. The difference between these items and throwing daggers is they are considerably more powerful and interesting, but they can't be carried or afforded in such great quantities that they could be used every round. They're not a "once a day" ability like a spell, nor an "every round" item like a crossbow, but a "once per ecounter" item that encourages strategy.And no, "alchemist" or "artificer" shouldn't be its own class. When it's a unique class it quickly requires advanced technology to keep up with wizards.
>wizards shouldn't be 1d8 machinesuh huh great>if they want to do damage they should get a crossbowyup you're 100% right>alchemy fixes everythingNO FUCK YOU WERE DOING SO WELL
>>94151653>>alchemy fixes everything>NO FUCK YOU WERE DOING SO WELLWrong. Alchemy is the perfect solution for a class that already makes potions but can't do it enough at low level to make a real difference.The distinction is that alchemist flasks should all be 'real world', if exaggerated in effectiveness. No flasks of invisibility or polymorph or time stop. And it makes sense even an apprentice wizard could learn this crap as part of their training. The items are powerful enough to be very useful at early levels, but they don't scale up and the wizard will naturally use them far them as he advances. The "muh wizard is just standing around" is a low level complaint.
>>94151625DnD is full of spells that work against the game. The shit that dnd theorycrafters love, like attacking people from other planes of existence, encourages a mode of play that is completely incompatible with the way that the game is intended to be played. You can't have 'the players go on a dungeon crawl through these 12 rooms, evading traps and fighting cool monsters' and 'I teleport to another dimension so that i can spent the next 2 hours hammering them with my entire spell list from an unassailable position because only like 5 enemies in the MM can planeshift' in the same game.
>>94151625Because we're obviously talking about 5e, the actual answer would be to add in more spells that allow for repeated damage across multiple rounds.Minute Meteors is an easy example. You get six shots of small fireballs that do a pittance of damage. If the Wizard wants to pretend to be an archer for a while, then make him spend a proper spell slot on it and give it limited duration/shots. If a player cares about doing something flashy each round, then they just need to take those spells that take multiple rounds and actions to get the full value out of.
>>94151880This. Bypassing the game is interesting/funny once. After that it becomes a question of "why bother?"If the wizard doesn't need to be in direct combat to be effective then why is he in the dungeon at all?
>yet another "retarded opinion stated as fact" thread
>>94151880"Your continued trespass into the outer planes has attracted the attention of the solar plexus clown gliders. You are marked for imminent rectal inversion."
>>94151653Cantrips outscale any martial without gwm or sharpshooter
>>94151907>This. Bypassing the game is interesting/funny once. After that it becomes a question of "why bother?">>If the wizard doesn't need to be in direct combat to be effective then why is he in the dungeon at all?I don't play 5e but have gathered there's complete idiocy like "Antifa's Tiny Hut" or whatever low level spell that effectively lets you take a full rest with complete invulnerability. The presence of that spell alone tells me the system is a joke. That's before we get to old chestnuts like Fly. Hell, I think they now have PC races that can fly and thus render 80% of low level encounters trivial unless it occurs in a room with a 10' ceiling.
>>94151927The GM having the technical ability to screw over the player for using the rules that the game gave them is not a good solution. By that logic the way to balance save or die spells is to just look at the wizard player dead in the eyes while holding your hands above the table and visibly touching no dice and tell him flat out "He made his save this turn".
>>94151931To be fair, this has more to do with how fucking terrible martials are at doing the one thing that the game needs them to do than anything else. You have to do gimmicky netbuilds for your martial to be anything other than an embarrassment in combat after the HP scales beyond 1d6+STR being a meaningful threat to enemies. And there is almost no middle ground between "It will take me 3 turns of attacking to kill this one goblin, and there are 4 more to kill after that" and "Between my 5 attacks this turn I deal 157 points of damage to any two enemies standing next to each other within 50 ft of me."
>>94151962>Hell, I think they now have PC races that can fly and thus render 80% of low level encountersIt's so funny that 3.5 of all things thought to level lock flying for PC races but 5e won't
>>94151625There is nothing about "Alchemy" that makes it worthy of being something distinct let alone having it's own mechanics. It's just a thematic aspect of the class/character.I guess if you enjoy throwing vials of boiled magical piss at people.
>>94151962>Antifa’s Tiny Hutmy fucking sides
>>94151625>(even that being disallowed in AD&D and B/X).Technically, the 3e wizard also lacks proficiency in the crossbow. It is the sorcerer who carries it as his starting equipment.
And here we have the perfect example of of no one reading the fucking books again. Yes, I'm talking about those who shit on 5e.5e was (I say was because post Tasha's and 2024 are... Choices) balanced around 6 to 8 fights and 3 to 4 short rests. Can you do the "go to another plane and pelt them"? Sure. And then you're sitting there with your dick in your hand for the other parts of the game.>"Oh but we don't have 10 hours to resolve all that combat"Neither do we. 2 hour gsme sessions. Combat should last 2 to 4 rounds. If your players are taking 10 minutes to decide what they want to do, that's a skill issue. We just end on a short rest rather than a long one.>"Sounds too long, doing a session a week would take months to get anything done"Games last as they last. Months, years. That's the fun of them.>"But we want to RP"Our games are 60-80% RP.>"We want all story"Play a story RPG instead of a traditional RPG, and don't shit on something you clearly know fuck all about.
>>94151962>I don't play 5eAnd it shows.>Tiny HutDoesn't become available until level 5 and often not worth the spell slot to prepare. Completely defeated by Dispel Magic or monsters smart enough to use the time to lay an ambush on you.>>94152010>It's so funny that 3.5 of all things thought to level lock flying for PC races but 5e won'tYou can count the races that can achieve flight before level 5 on one hand.
>>94152010>>Hell, I think they now have PC races that can fly and thus render 80% of low level encounters>It's so funny that 3.5 of all things thought to level lock flying for PC races but 5e won'tGo on reddit and pretend to be a DM who doesn't allow flying PC's. The furries will melt down, call you a fascist DM, and the 'reasonable' ones will say "my dood it is totally easy to handle this? Just create encounters that can handle them. Like the dinosaurs have archers. Or the castle has a force field over top it. It's super easy my dood. If I heard my dm say that I'd find a more creative dm."
>>94151625You just buy them a magic missile wand or something so they can do something at least.
Only damaging cantrip allowed is rock.
>>94153820>or monsters smart enough to use the time to lay an ambush on youfunny thing is, Tiny Hut has duration of exactly 8 hours and the wizard can't start long rest until after he finished casting the spell, if monsters attack at the exact moment the spell expires party has only rested for 7 hours 59 minutes, and will not have benefits of long rest
>>94153820>Spell slot to prepareIt's a ritual. Wizards can cast rituals without preparing the spell. And they can keep casting the ritual. Most often there's a gentleman's agreement not to be autistic about this. Rope Trick is another easily abusable spell, but people don't resort to that.>>94153892Fine, I go back to town anon.
>>94153892>funny thing is, Tiny Hut has duration of exactly 8 hours and the wizard can't start long rest until after he finished casting the spell, if monsters attack at the exact moment the spell expires party has only rested for 7 hours 59 minutes, and will not have benefits of long restLol it's so retarded.It's the antithesis of sword & sorcery adventure. I'm picturing the equivalents of some crackheads holed up in a cheap motel, waking up at 5 am to sneak out without paying, peers through the dirty blinds while a bunch of undercover cops are watching from the parking lot.
>>94151931>doesn't add ability modifierLolno
>>94153890>Overpowered Stone Rock
>>94151931Anon, could you not do more than 22 damage as a martial at level 17? Do you have a chromosome surplus?
>>94151625>"artificer" shouldn't be its own class.lorelet. artificers make perfect sense in the setting they're originally from, it's trying to shunt them into every other setting (and giving them guns??) that ruins them.
>>94151625So what's the difference between a cantrip with unlimited ammo doing 1d8 damage, and a crossbow with effectively unlimited ammo doing 1d8 damage? Besides "muh mysterious magic" bitching.
>>94151625>"I cast fire bolt/lightning bolt/eldrich blast" every roundLightning Bolt is a third level you fucking secondary.>>94151962>Hell, I think they now have PC races that can flyThat's not new to 5e. It's in 4e and Pathfinder too.
>>94151625What can I say... play stupid games, win stupid prizes
>>94155011Cantrips did like 1d3 damage in earlier editions. When I see people rely on cantrips to do damage, it's always on the lower end. The one exception is Eldritch Blast. People bitch about it, "all you do is spam this cantrip." What the fuck is the ranger doing then? I flavored EB as a bow and arrow, and suddenly never got those comments.
>>94153892>Alright boys, we need to keep the bastards away from Nigel for ten turns. Steady now.
>>94151880>You can't have 'the players go on a dungeon crawl through these 12 rooms, evading traps and fighting cool monsters' and 'I teleport to another dimension so that i can spent the next 2 hours hammering them with my entire spell list from an unassailable position because only like 5 enemies in the MM can planeshift' in the same gameYou can if you put them at different levels of play, which they are, so you're retarded. A high-level character with his own personal demiplane is supposed to be dealing with threats who have the personal power and resources needed to breach into that demiplane.>because only like 5 enemies in the MM can planeshiftIt's a whole Hell of a lot more than that once you start looking at loot tables and see that the DMG itself points out that you should do stuff like, "you rolled up that the dragon's loot includes a wand of web? Then have it actually have and use the wand of web." And that's before getting into stuff like monsters/NPCs with class levels who can just straight-up have the spell. Or minions who can straight-up cast the spell, such as genies. Who can even be a reasonable avenue towards breaching those private demiplanes, should their bosses (or they themselves) wish it.
>>94154421Anon, you may exclusively have monsters with 3 Intelligence and never have wandering monsters, but that doesn't mean that the rest of us do. Leomund's Tiny Hut isn't invisible, it can be seen from the outside even if not seen into. Any intelligent wandering monster that comes across it is going to think it's weird and worth investigating. Any NPC from a reasonably magical society - such as all of them in a typical D&D world - will recognize Leomund's Tiny Hut and realize it means there's people inside resting, and so prepare to ambush them once they're done with said rest.Every time I hear people complaining about D&D wizards, a line from that Chernobyl miniseries comes into my head.>Gorbachev: "Our power comes from the perception of our power."Wizards are a lot easier to deal with than you think they are, it's just that you don't bother to think about the problem at all.
>>94155563It was in 3e with a number of racial options, like aaracockra and several hengeyokai subraces.
>>94151931Sorry to you shatter your world but a level 6 Fighter deals more damage unarmed than a wizard does with cantrips.6x2 vs 11(2D10)
>>94151625As opposed to carrying a light crossbow and doing LITERALLY the exact same thing as a martial? The entire reason cantrips exist is because, while it might be practical and realistic for an armed band of sell swords and mercenaries to all walk around with backup crossbows and daggers and such, not everyone enjoys that sort of Chronicles of the Black Company practicality. Past the absolute lowest levels of gameplay spellcasters have better things to do than just shoot their light crossbow or fling a lame cantrip anyways.
>>94151907>>94151880>If the wizard doesn't need to be in direct combat to be effective then why is he in the dungeon at all?To come so close, yet still miss the point of true wizardry.
>>94151931If the Martial has neither STR nor DEX above 11, then yeah sure.
>>94151625>every round for 1d8 damage making the wizard indistinguishable from the fighter and turning magic into a jokeWhich of the fighter's class options guarantee them a ranged, elemental damage type to choose from without any expenditure of resources or DM permission?
>>94151625>playing deeandeeFound yer problem m8
>>94151625>>94151711Actually based, I'm tired of fantasy settings splitting up magic and technology when historically they were the same field. Wizards in a fantasy setting should also be scientists, magic is part of the world so if a wizard is engaging in studies about one aspect of the world (such as teleportation spells) he should also be engaging in studies about other aspects of the world (such as chemistry).
>>94151625>wizards shouldn't use magic for 1d# damage>instead they should use *insert shit mundane item that ruins the character fantasy entirely* that deals 1d# damageFuck off retard
>>94152006>1d6+STR being a meaningful threat to enemies.I amy be a bit late to the thread here BUT outside of throwing weapons when is a STR build fighter ever going to only be doing 1d6+str? Like you can start with a long sword that does 1d8+str that you can two hand for 1d10+str when you need it. Somewhere around level 4 to 7 you should of gotten a +1 weapon and those do can be replaced over time for better things. You have feats like Dueling for +2 and you get a Ability Score Improvement or feat every other level starting at level 4 which gets to another subject...>You have to do gimmicky netbuildsIf you have this issue why are you playing the class that is made to support net builds? Do not saying that it is not made for that, else why does it get so many feats.
>>94151880>The shit that dnd theorycrafters love, like attacking people from other planes of existenceit also doesn't even work in practice and is just nogame drivel
>>94160401>>The shit that dnd theorycrafters love, like attacking people from other planes of existence>it also doesn't even work in practice and is just nogame drivelLOL. Half of reddit is söy DM's weeping over their players trivializing 75% of their adventure, and the key element to this discussion is they're doing it by the book and so the DM is terrified to house rule anything reasonable for fear of "taking away his player agency". Abusing rests, divination spells that reveal every secret and plot twist, flying over the 90% of enemies who can't fly, Wall of Force or whatever furry superhero spell that apparently one-shots every creature... the magic system is a joke.Captcha:TDS
>>94160668only in your nogame fantasies
>>94160736Nope. Happens in real games.
>>94160895maybe on planet retard
>>94160909Nah. Planet retard is the only planet it's not a problem on because they don't even think to abuse the systems.
>>94160929planet retard is where they're too retarded to even imagine what the game actually plays like, just like you
>>94151916Reddit loves this guy
>>94160936Oh no. I've played some games.
>>94160960...in your head
>>94160970Real life, actually. In-person.
>>94160970More like in his ass.
>>94152252>Technically, the 3e wizard also lacks proficiency in the crossbowWrong.
>>94162764They got it right giving wizards the crossbow instead of the sling, which is what they gave in b/x and ad&d. A sling is far more difficult to use competently. Gary was fairly knowledgeable about weapons so I'm inclined to give him benefit of the doubt and say he knew this; rather the sling was chosen alongside the dagger for being the smallest, least cumbersome weapon to carry around. The third and final weapon allowed was the quarterstaff which is cumbersome, but gotta let a nigga wield his staff.
>>94158136>You can if you put them at different levels of play, which they are, so you're retarded. A high-level character with his own personal demiplane is supposed to be dealing with threats who have the personal power and resources needed to breach into that demiplane.Okay. At what level should the Rogue get his own demiplane? When does the Barbarian get the ability to planeshift? After all, if the game intends that as the level of play for higher tiers, all of the core classes are surely geared for that intent.
>>94158136>Or minions who can straight-up cast the spell, such as genies. Who can even be a reasonable avenue towards breaching those private demiplanes, should their bosses (or they themselves) wish it."I wish that traveling between planes wasn't available to mortal magicians of any type.""I wish that mortal magicians were unable to cast Wish or Miracle."Problem solved.
>>94163179>Okay. At what level should the Rogue get his own demiplane20th level rogue 'uh, I got a 95% chance to pick this lock'. "oh, cool, it'll save our 3rd level slave mage from using Knock.'
>>94163217Both those Wishes are *fantastically* beyond the limits of Wish, and all editions, even 5th Edition, specifically tell a DM to royally fuck up a Wish of that magnitude.I am really sick of people who haven’t even been in the same room as any PHB, nevermind actually read it, but who nevertheless feel entitled to comment on it.
>>94163474If I'm a GM who is otherwise stuck dealing with wizard bullshit where they won't even stay on the same plane of existence as the adventure I am trying to run? Both of those wishes pass with flying colors and the genie throws in a blowjob for free.
>>94163179> At what level should the Rogue get his own demiplane?Roll well on the loot tables and it could be as early as level 1. Otherwise at whatever level you’re potentially rolling on, in 5e, Table H with the Rod of Security, so between 5th-10th level.> When does the Barbarian get the ability to planeshift?Table I has the Well of Many Worlds, so between 11th-16th levels.
>>94163506You're not a GM of anything, nogame.
>>94163506Then you're a bad and unimaginative DM. At the level where wizards are capable of regularly and easily hopping between planes, and ESPECIALLY at the level where they can craft their own personal demiplane without the use of a magic item, you should be designing adventures that take that into account. To do otherwise is directly equivalent to sending an ordinary goblin at a 20th level fighter and then getting stroppy when the goblin dies in a single attack. You are not advancing the game world and the threats the game world presents at pace with the player characters' capabilities.You know what IS comfortably within the limits of Wish?>"I wish for myself and my companions to be transported to X's personal demiplane."Do you know why it's comfortably within the limits of Wish? Because it's literally just Plane Shift, taking advantage of Wish not requiring the material component of a spell it's duplicating so no need for the special 250 gp tuning fork. Except that once the Wisher has been to the plane they can then do whatever is ordinarily necessary to create said tuning fork, which can't be that hard if plane shift is cast as regularly as you fear it to be. From that point forward they can use Plane Shift to freely go to and from the demiplane, and can make copies of the tuning fork so that others can go to and from it as well.This is a solved problem, Anon. It's been a solved problem for decades now. The problem isn't D&D, at least not in this specific case. The problem is you.
>>94163687As a side note, this is a problem I've actually personally thought at lot about over the past 24 years. The 3.0 DMG has a d100 table of one-sentence adventure ideas and one of them is "thieves steal a valuable treasure and then flee inside Mordenkainen's Magnificent Mansion".Only in 3e, especially when it first came out and so there weren't really any splats yet, breaching MMM was seemingly impossible. So I spent a lot of time trying to figure out ways to make it work, and have had an eye towards demiplane and dimensional intrusions ever since.
>>94163687Part of being a good GM is recognizing what parts of a game's system are worth keeping, and what are not. As GM I am not obligated to create an entire secondary game to runs alongside that rest of the campaign that only the wizard or cleric is capable of engaging with. If I have to structure the rest of the campaign around the full casters having access to 4 specific spells, which foist upon my game a cosmological assumption that I never asked for in the first place, and which no other class in the game is capable of interacting with in any way without me going out of my way to arm them with specific powerful magic items that are really just a vehicle for enabling the full casters to do the same bullshit but even more often/without having to dedicate spell slots to doing so? Why not just save myself all of that trouble and hassle and just say "Nope. Not a thing" and move on? You literally cannot be up my ass about this when even official DnD campaign settings make planar travel impossible.
>>94163787In other words the cantrip problem is much WORSE than OP suggested, you retard.
>>94163787You are a moron. Eldritch Knight can learn all sorts of elemental cantrips, but why do you think absolutely no one ever does this instead of weapon attacks?
>>94163944OP failed to point any actual problem with cantrips, he just regurgitated his pseudo-grog opinion as if it as fact
>>94163934>As GM I am not obligated to create an entire secondary gameThis isn't a secondary game. It's just straight-up the main game, at higher levels. You just aren't interested in running that aspect of the game. That's fine, just end your campaigns at level 10 or so and deny your players magic items that would let them planeshift. Accept that you prefer low-level games to high-level ones.>that only the wizard or cleric is capable of engaging with.But it's not only the wizard or cleric, numnuts. Leaving aside that druids, sorcerers, and warlocks also get plane shift directly and that bards can select it through Magical Secrets or use Planar Binding to get a celestial, elemental, fey or fiend to cast it on their behalf (so that's 6 of 12 PHB classes there that can do it), I also named two out of numerous magic items that open up plane shifting or demiplanes to any class. That's leaving aside that you can technically start planar adventures as early as level 1 if you give your party a Bag of Holding and they use it as a way to enter the Astral, albeit at the cost of said Bag.You actually have to do more work to *remove* these numerous options then you do to just keep them and work around them. The fact that you haven't even considered that once again betrays your lack of imagination, as does the fact that you think that it's only wizards and clerics that can traverse the planes under their own power, instead of literally half the classes in the PHB.
>>94164237> didn't even read the full post he responded toEmbarrassing.
>>94163954So what you're suggesting is that there IS a distinction between fighters and wizards.
>>94151625This whole post is retarded. Wizards have a shitton of options as it is--it's what makes them strong. If a player wants to hurl a little d8 fire spell on command, that's nothing.
>>94164285I addressed all the points of the post.>4 spells ruin the gameIt's a lot more than just 4 spells>Only two classes get to do thisEven ignoring how every class can do it with magic items, 1/2 the classes in the PHB can planeshift>Why not save myself the troubleIt's actually more trouble to remove all the options.The only thing I didn't address is "even official DnD campaign settings make planar travel impossible", because that's flat incorrect. Even assuming that Anon meant "campaign modules", I've played 5/6 (depending on whether or not you count Hoard of the Dragon Queen/Rise of Tiamat as just one campaign), and of those only one flat banned planar travel, Curse of Strahd. But it's an open possibility in HotDQ/RoT, Out of the Abyss, Storm King's Thunder, and Tomb of Annihilation outside of the Tomb itself (which is only a small part of the overall campaign). I also know for a fact that it's not prevented in Princes of the Apocalypse - I haven't played/run it but I do own the book.So what, exactly do you feel I missed?
>>94163944So, how does this mean that wizards are indistinguishable from fighters again?
>>94154950>in the setting they're originally fromthey started as kit for wizards before your shitty setting was even a thing
>>94160304The moment the wizard starts to take away from other classes is the moment the wizard needs to be scaled back.
>>94166607And…they don’t. The standard wizard attack cantrip is fire bolt. It deals, at most (17th leve), 22 (4d10) damage out to to a range of 120 feet, to one target per action only.Six levels before the wizard can do that (at 11th level), a fighter wielding a longbow can deal 28.5 (3d8+15) damage with a longbow out to a range of 150 feet at no penalty, or out to 600 feet with disadvantage. The fighter can choose to do this to one target, or to split it up into up to three targets dealt in 1d8+5 chunks.Please note that this isn’t even the fighter’s max damage with a longbow, either - we haven’t factored in action surge, sharpshooter, the capstone extra attack, or any other benefit.I’m terms of cantrip damage from a wizard verses weapon damage from a fighter, the wizard lags notably behind.
>>94166835>17th levelAnon real-life games rarely get past level 10. Top end isn't really relevant because so few people see it in action.
>>94160304people say the dumbest shit whenever they defend their "character fantasy".Making magic be completely trivial shit to spam makes it fucking boring. Having it be rarer both makes alternatives more valuable and makes magic feel more special.5e dnd wizards are fucking lame
>>94159743Whats the point of true wizardry then?
>>94151931Have you considered playing dnd before posting? Cantrips don’t outscale even a ranger.
>>94151625You have a deal anon but if they're gonna be so limited, gimme actually weird and exciting spells like something called>Haruspicy>L'juibs Joyful Wilting>Black MilkAnd maybe>Violent Protein Foldingor just>A Call Beyondat higher levels, none of that Jack-n-Jill-went-to-fetch-a-Scroll-of-Featherfall. AlsoI demand pots of Green Slime to be craftable alchemical items, every encounter is better with potential of Green Slime escalation.
>>94167031>Anon real-life games rarely get past level 10.Okay, so if the game ends at 10th level then that means the wizard’s firebolt is dealing 11 (2d10) damage, while a fighter with a longbow is dealing 19 (2d8+10) damage. Or heck, 13 (2d8+4) if he didn’t specialize Dexterity and just has a +2 modifier. Either way, his damage outclasses the wizard.
>>94167171Guess we need to do the same for fighters then since swinging a sword (spam) is boring. They should only be able to attack a number of times equal to their level. Really make them think out of the box you know?
>>94166607Casters will NEVER do more damage than a Martial via cantrips.
>>94167508> Guess we need to do the same for fighters then since swinging a sword (spam) is boring.Oh no, please don't give martials other things to do than stand in place and repeat full attack all combat. We'd HATE that. Promise. You'd really piss us off if you gave us more meaningful ways to engage with the battle.
>>94167269this guy gets it. I wonder if zoomies genuinely would dislike this correct way to play. Maybe they're so risk averse due to covid lockdowns and autism they can't comprehend 'rare and wondrous' >> mundane pew-pew muh laser every round
>>94167521>resistance/immunity to non-magical weapons doesn't exist and has never been implemented by any DM anywhere
>>94168841Irrelevant when resistance/immunity to magic damage things is also a thing. Especially fire, which is the most common cantrip.
>>94168841Resistance becomes immediately irrelevant when the fighter gets a +1 weapon.
>>94167941This isn't the epic gotcha moment you think it is.
>>94169323Doesn’t even need to be +1, just a magic weapon. A trident of fish command or javelin of lightning works just as well.
>>94151625You have two real options.1. Play a better game.2. If you can't get out of the D&D prison, then just get rid of the direct damage cantrips.
>>94153890>>94154789Slings not hitting like a fucking freight truck is a goddamn travesty. They should be doing as much if nor more than a bow.
>>94169476>Slings not hitting like a fucking freight truck is a goddamn travesty. They should be doing as much if nor more than a bow.>>94169476Modern players would never be able to process such rules, nor would they be relevant when your 3rd level pc is already a furry superhero. But this is the kind of thing that shines in a mudcore game where combat is rare and lethal and small decisions matter.>'damn, we're up against a knight in full plate? My longbow has 0% chance to do any damage. Despite what Hollywood thinks no longbow can penetrate good plate. No a fucking bodkin arrow won't you retard. But Tyrone the Thief has a sling? If he scores a headshot, that will definitely stun the knight. It's like getting hit with a club. Then, thanks to our game's excellent grappling rules, we'll rush him, take him to the ground, and smash his helmeted head with rocks."
>>94169476That's it. I'm sick of all this "1d4 bludgeoning" bullshit that's going on in the 5e system right now. Slings deserve much better than that. Much, much better than that.I should know what I'm talking about. I myself commissioned a genuine sling in the Balearic Islands for 500€ (that's about $544) and have been practicing with it for almost 2 years now. I can even pierce slabs of solid steel with a well-aimed stone.Spanish leatherworkers spend years working on a single sling and slaughter up to a million cows to produce the finest learher known to mankind.Slings are thrice as deadly as English longbows and stones thrice as hard as arrows that matter too. Anything an arrow can pierce through, a slung stone can pierce through better. I'm pretty sure a sling could easily go straight through a knight wearing full plate with a simple three second wind.Ever wonder why ancient Rome fought three wars with Carthage? That's right, they were terrified of Carthage possessing the might of disciplined Balearic slingers and their slings of destruction. Even in World War II, Nazi soldiers never targeted Spain because the Balearic slingers’ killing power was still feared and respected.So what am I saying? Slings are simply the best ranged weapon that the world has ever seen, and thus, require better stats in the 5e system. Here is the stat block I propose for Slings:>Damage: 2d6>Damage Type: Bludgeoning and piercing>Properties: Range, Versatile (4d6), magical, CON save DC 20 or stunned for 1 hour>Range: 200/800Now that seems a lot more representative of the killing power of Slings in real life, don't you think?tl;dr = Slings need to do more damage in 5e, see my new stat block.
>>94160668>Abusing restsYour fault as a DM if time doesn't matter in your game>divination spells that reveal every secret and plot twistWhy the fuck aren't your antagonists using anti-divination or accounting for common divination methods?>flying over the 90% of enemies who can't flyRanged weapons exist, you can always slap on wings on whoever you like.>Wall of ForceMost of the abuse is by retards not actually handling it by RAW. Also have just have more mobs.I fucking hate 5e and even I recognize that most of the stuff getting reddit and /tg/ to shit their pants is a result of unimaginative retard GMs that can neither read and enforce rules properly or adapt to high-level play and have the encounter actually involve some tactical thinking.
>>94167171>Making magic be completely trivial shit to spam makes it fucking boringmaybe for you> Having it be rarer both makes alternatives more valuable and makes magic feel more specialit doesn't
>>94171421Eh, the meme doesn't really work here because slings are factually much better weapons than most of the things that replaced them if your slinger has taken the time to learn the weapon properly.
>>94173192Slings are less accurate than bows but impart more kinetic damage. Bows impart less damage but are considerably more accurate. If we’re talking straight facts, that’s where we stand, based on both contemporary accounts when both were in common use, and on modern tests with recreations.Arrows are also ultimately more deadly anyway. A solid hit from a sling will seriously hurt and might break bone, but as long as nothing vital was hit, you’ll live because the wound is unlikely to be deep. An arrow wound, meanwhile, is practically guaranteed to leave behind splinters, and otherwise leave a gaping wound that will become infected. Remember that until the middle of the 20th century, infected battle wounds killed *way* more soldiers than the wounds themselves did, in every war fought up to then.Finally there’s a problem that slings kind of hit a cap on how good they can possibly be. There really isn’t much difference in the performance of a sling made 2,000 years ago and a sling made today with modern equipment, save that the modern-material sling will wear out slower. Bows and arrows, meanwhile, are a weapon that’s actually still advancing as new materials emerge to improve draw, accuracy, weight, etc.And of course let’s not forget that bows can be used from horseback, or that it’s a lot easier to mass together bowmen than slingers for mass fire, simply because bowmen can stand so much closer together without compromising anything.Slings are cool enough, sure. But bows had clear and ultimately insurmountable advantages that made them the ranger weapon of choice until even better alternatives like crossbows and guns came alone.
>>94173765You're spouting a lot of bullshit for someone who wants to talk about facts only. The only thing you're right about is that bows are more accurate, and only in so far as their skill floor is lower. Even today tests show that slings are consistently more fatal than even modern bows.
5e is literally garbage. You guys are wasting your time talking about it.
>>94169323>whenWhich of the fighter's class features guarantees they get a magical weapon?
>>94171573>unimaginative retard GMs that can neither read and enforce rules properly or adapt to high-level playAnd this is what happens when normalfags infest your hobby. And with a system designed to wank its players to power-fantasy orgasm.
>>94174177How many DMs aren't going to give a fighter a magic weapon? You're white-rooming, Anon.
>>94173926If I'm so wrong, then why did slings fall out of favor over bows?
>>94174283You're deflecting.Because there's no guarantee in the class features, there is a non-zero chance that a fighter will spend an entire campaign without magical weapons or other magical equipment. Especially with DMs who want to make the campaign according to "the plot" or whatever.
>>94174306>You're deflecting.No, I'm right. >there is a non-zero I'll agree that it's non-zero, I'm just contending that it's so low as to be only a rounding error away from zero for any serious discussion.
>>94174289Ease of training, the fact you can get more archers in a smaller formation.Neither of those is particularly applicable to typical PCs in a tabletop game, as they fight in small numbers with highly specialized weapons.
>>94171573>>flying over the 90% of enemies who can't fly>Ranged weapons exist, you can always slap on wings on whoever you like.LOL>uh, no, this T-Rex has wings so you can't just shoot 500 arrows at him while hovering overhead>Yes, this Cave Bear DOES have a crossbow>that's right, you can't just fly over the castle's elaborate defense in depth because there's a mysterious force field extending 10000 feet into the sky>yes, the old 0-level farmer DOES wear an amulet of mind shield. Yes, just like every other peasant and beggar you've met. I already told you those amulets only work for the original owner and they can't be removed. You sound like a great DM, Mr. Nogames.
>>94176016>expecting normal animals and 0th-level NPCs with no equipment to be challenges for mid/high level characterseither you don't play games, or you are just retarded, or both
>>94174306>Especially with DMs who want to make the campaign according to "the plot" or whatever.So it's a 'bad DM who doesn't understand the game' problem, not a class feature problem
>>94174283>>94174346NTA, but just because the loot rolls will likely favor the fighter with a magic weapon doesn't mean its a good one or one compatible with their character build choices thusfar. A fighter trying for an archery build is going to see any magical melee weapon that random rolls give him are worthless, and so on. Martials often have to specialize in what kinds of weapon actually works for what they are trying to do, and getting a *specific* magic weapon with the properties they *want* requires either the GM to be generous or to expend a shitton of a precious resource (gp).Casters, meanwhile, can pick and choose whatever spells they consider optimal that simply fall into their lap upon levelup with no reasonable ability for anything else, even the GM, to interfere. A GM can delay gifting the fighter a Holy weapon in a game that is focused on Undead, but RAW can't do shit to stop a Wizard from picking Fly at levelup if they don't want it in play.
>>94176524Anon, again, tell me what you think the actual percentage of DMs who won't give a glaive-wielding fighter a magic glaive are.
>>94176081So your advice, then, is that whenever the players level up all NPCs in the world just automatically get stronger and acquire a wealth of magic items to prevent the players from flensing any kind of non-gamist interaction from the universe? Weird take.
>>94176542Depends, how pedantic do you want to be about this?
>>94174346>never isn't actually never>it's only serious when it concerns things I take seriouslyYour concession is accepted.
>>94174177Literally sold at shops. Just like you want the Wizard to restock on darts/sling ammo/bolts/whatever other mundane shit; the fighter can afford to spend a lil bit of gold to get himself a better weapon if SOMEHOW the DM doesn't give them a +1 or magic weapon of some kind.Never mind the fact that would be a terrible fucking DM since D&D is quite literally balanced around getting better weapons as you level up.
>>94176580 >>94176770I just want your honest opinion. Keep in mind that published adventures start giving out magic weapons pretty early - Lost Mine of Phandelver, for example, hands out a +1 longsword in the Redbrand Hideout in part 2, in which the characters are expected to be just level 2.
>>94176081>>expecting normal animals and 0th-level NPCs with no equipment to be challenges for mid/high level characters>either you don't play games, or you are just retarded, or bothAhem, I repeat: LOL. Magic bois in 5e get Fly at level 5>"Ugh, can you believe it?! The DM actually expected three T-Rexs to be a challenge for our level 5 furry superheros! And then -- get this -- he got mad and said we encountered the tarrasque! I just hovered over that bitch following him around at plinging at him with my twink bow until he was dead!"Sounds fun to force ranged attacks or flying on to every single encounter so they aren't trivialized. Just skip all low-to-mid level play, eh? Though I guess first level 5e is pretty much equivalent to high level AD&D.
>>94177554Allowing flying PC's in a game where most low-level monsters, and many mid-level monsters, can't deal with it is like designing a game where half the monsters aren't allowed to fight back and then whining on Reddit that the game is broken.
>>94151625>What's the answer for crybabies who have a tantrum if they're not "doing something exciting" every round?Tell them wizard is not the right class for them, and they should try warlocks. 3.5 warlocks, not 5e garbage.
>>94178433>Tell them wizard is not the right class for them, and they should try warlocks. 3.5 warlocks, not 5e garbage.I don't know 3.5 warlocks. If they're casting anything every round, it solves nothing and still gets classified as SpellSlop.
>>94176098It's a "never means never" problem, not a "I'll just say never but not actually mean it" problem.>>94176916>Literally sold at shops.Whose stock depends on the DM, not the fighter's class features. A DM who doesn't want the party getting any items that don't fit whatever "narrative" he's going for won't let the party get those items, full stop.
>>94177554> Magic bois in 5e get Fly at level 5Yes, as one of a total of two 3rd level spells they can cast. Each Fly spell cast is a Fireball or a Lightning Bolt that they *can’t*. Also level 5 means that it’s time for them to be facing CR 5 monsters, which include air elementals, hill giants, night hags and wraiths, all of which can either fly or have excellent ranges attack options. One CR back there’s also couatls, ghosts, wyrmling red dragons, and succubi/incubi for the same, and one CR up there’s chimeras, driders, invisible stalkers, NPC mages, medusae, vrock, young brass dragons, and young black dragons. I’m fact at CR 6 in the SRD there’s almost no monster that *can’t* fly nor attack well at range. Only mammoths are strictly ground-bound and melee.This is just SRD, too, I’m not looking at other splats or taking custom NPCs or monsters into account.
>>94179803>It's a "never means never" problem, not a "I'll just say never but not actually mean it"It's only a problem if the DM doesn't know the gameIt's a problem with the person, not the game
>>94179863>Yes, as one of a total of two 3rd level spells they can cast. Each Fly spell cast is a Fireball or a Lightning Bolt that they *can’t*. Also level 5 means that it’s time for them to be facing CR 5 monsters, which include air elementals, hill giants, night hags and wraiths, all of which can either fly or have excellent ranges attack options. One CR back there’s also couatls, ghosts, wyrmling red dragons, and succubi/incubi for the same, and one CR up there’s chimeras, driders, invisible stalkers, NPC mages, medusae, vrock, young brass dragons, and young black dragons. I’m fact at CR 6 in the SRD there’s almost no monster that *can’t* fly nor attack well at range. Only mammoths are strictly ground-bound and melee.Yes, Fly is not nearly as retarded as PC classes that can fly at will. Though even the spell is stupid unless you're willing to let it negate major parts of many adventures (talking about level ranges that 90% of people play at 7 and under).
>>94180604I'm struggling to think of any published adventure, at least, that would be ruined by access to the Fly spell, or flying PCs.
>>94180665>published adventurewell there's your problem.Here's one: Lord of the Rings written by JRR Tolkien. If Frodo is an Aarakocra it's game over. Spare me the Tolkien fanboy cope and seething about Nazgul hypersonic missiles or Sauron insta-detection that somehow missed Frodo the entire time but would detect the ring if it's... what, more than 200' above ground level LOL.
>>94180714I mean it's way simpler than that, actually. If Frodo is an aaracokra then it's unlikely but still completely believable that he might get to Mt. Doom without anyone in Mordor noticing, but he *will not* be able to destroy the Ring, because *no one* could destroy the Ring. No one on Middle-earth has the willpower to willingly toss the Ring into the volcano.Except Tom Bombadil, but there's a whole separate set of problems there with him that aren't relevantFrodo as a bird person with the Ring just ends with Sauron conquering Middle-earth without it, because he didn't need it to achieve his goals, it just made them easier. Even if he never catches Air Frodo, he still ultimately wins.
>>94180864>aaracokraIf Frodo is an aaracokra then so is Gollum and he follows him and the end plays out like the book. Your year-long adventure just turned into 15 minutes thanks to flying PC's
>>94180714Lord of the rings is not a published adventure, but a novel and with a complete different world than any D&D setting wland the whole syorie desingned from beginimg to end without player agency or need to challange player with set amount encounters ever being a factorYou don't know the game you are bitching about much less the specific mechanics, you only know you reddit strawman because you play no games and think those are meant to play just like novels
>>94181049They would still need to sneak into mordor with Sauron expecting and prepared for flying enimies
>>94180035>It's a problem with the person, not the gameBut it's something that DOES happen, unlike what >>94167521 suggested.
>>94181049>and he follows him and the end plays out like the bookNo it doesn't, Gollum can fly too, in that case. The ledge crumbles, Gollum just flies rather than falls.
>>94181476Never said it didn't happened, but that nothing that would be solved by changing the game mechanics because the problem isn't with the game it's the person
>>94181667Fighters not getting certain things through their class features would be solved by changing their class features to get those things, though.It's easier to call someone out on their bullshit with something that's in the rules than it is to call them out on something that's left freeform.
>>94181667What does "never" mean, then?
ITT: "indistinguishable" doesn't actually mean indistinguishable and "never" doesn't actually mean never.
>>94182145or just by the DM using the correct loot tables and magic itens/level by the DMG and all the published adventure settings again, the problem isn't the rules is the retard that don't read the book and don't know the game and think he can freeform it into their shit bootleg LotR
>>94182153point where did I said that shit DMs not giving access to level appropriate gear never happens
>>94182344Read the reply chain.
Here's the heart of the matter. Le Epic Redditor is baffled why a wizard who can pew-pew-pew every round is an issue when a fighter can should a bow that averages 2 more points of damage!Sure, the whole point of a wizard is to do things, be it damage or any other spell effect, rarely but to great effect. And that pew-pew-pew turns him into the usual quadratic mage who now ALSO eliminates the role of the linear fighter, albeit a linear fighter who does 2 points less damage. And then there's the elimination of mages as being special and mysterious if that's only a sad pretense in modern D&D. Might as well just give them a Star Wars blaster and call him a Jedi who combines space weaponry with The Force (i.e. magic).
