Any 13th Age bros here? What was your One Unique Thing?My current character is a halfling rogue who is on the run after stealing a fortune from a mob boss (and losing it in the ocean, naturally).
>>94387456I've both run and played it before. Has its issues but I still enjoy it a lot more than 5e. Finally got around to trying put the fighter in my last game and was surprised at how enjoyable the class was. Thought that its flexible attacks gimmick would be more annoying. But we played with approved third party materials, which shore up some 1st party shortcomings, so maybe it's not that shocking. Her OUT was that she is the child of a union between a martial lower house and higher nobility who focused on druidic magic. Her mother kept pestering her about boyfriends and husbands, but all my fighter wanted to do was be a knight who defended her lands and the kingdom at large. She had a shot at snagging the king's attention but turned it down in favor of playing special agent for the crown. There was a war on, after all. Eventually she obtained a powerful druidic artifact and retired as an NPC protector of the realm.
>>94387456honestly, 13th age mechanically is a bad 4e clone but its GM tools were really nice
>>94387519It openly took points from 4e, but there are too many differences to call it a clone. A closer approximation is "alternate universe 5e," in which WotC took a more experimental approach to addressing the anti-4e backlash.
Always wanted to give it a try
>>94387519>>94387531Never played it. What makes it good/bad/distinct?
>>94387519>>94390312It's a weird game. Half of it feels like it was made by somebody who wanted to do legally distinct 4E and the other half feels like it was made by somebody who wanted to a narrative driven story game.
>>94390943Almost like the designers are former WotC employees that weren't held back by corporate nonsense anymore.Heinsoo is the lead designer of 4e and a prolific board game designerTweet is one of the primary designers of 3e and the guy who also made stuff like Ars Magical, Over the Edge and Everway, so super story heavy things
>>94387456>One Unique ThingHere's something I dislike about this game. Why should every character be unique? Why can't some of them be just some guy on the road?
>>94391975Almost every dev note from Tweet was calculated to make me angry.It’s like someone who knows they are doing the wrong thing but does it anyway.
>>94392351From what I understand, the devs are good friends but have wildly different personalities and mastering styles and the game is them meeting halfway
>>94392351As for Tweet, I can't help but admire the guy who made ludicrously experimental nonsense like Everway. This shit had three completely unrelated resolution "mechanisms", one of which used a deck of cards with pictures and nothing else. Ridiculous.
istg this getting a second edition?
>>94390312>no battlegrid>uses relative range increments>combat is looser with more emphasis on player creativity than codified tactical rules>mechanics in general often incorporate narrative considerations which involve bargaining with the GM>classes follow a shared basic structure but are clearly distinct>martial classes tend to avoid daily power equivalents>some classes are more or less complex than others>barbarian and paladin both benefit from 3rd party options and fixes to damage math>in general i never run it anymore without select 3rd party materials>overall not so tightly balanced as 4e but not mechanically broken either>faction system which has potential but would benefit greatly from reworks/clarificationsOff the top of my head. I have not run it in a while.
>>94387456Yeah, I love 13th Age, currently GMing a campaign with a small party. One thing it really has over a lot of the more standard F20 games is that it's easy to balance with weird parties.I have a Druid who founded the world's first cat tavern, and a Ranger who is the destined/reincarnated lover of the High Druid. And occasionally a Fighter who is actually a mermaid who was cursed to walk around on human legs, but she frequently doesn't make it and we just run with 2 PCs and it works fine.The OUTs giving players permission to suggest somewhat whacky things really increases everyone's enjoyment it feels like.
>>94392287Convention play materials I've read jettison that requirement, so I don't see any reason to marry it.>>94393475Yeah it's been in the playtesting phase for a while now.
>>94392287Even a random guy you pick off the road will have some quirk you won't find with anyone else.
>>94395834Counterpoint.
>>94394107>faction systemWait, what? Where's that one?
>>94396967The Icon Dice are functionally a faction system disguised by an emphasis on obvious figureheads.
>>94397036Ah, that. I misinterpreted the phrase as something akin to the faction mini game in Without Number
>>94394951Do you happen to know how to get ahold of a playtest?
>>94393302>Both sides compromising their own vision and playstyle to appease the other.That explains everything. While a much better result than 5E, it still feels like the same kind of piddling half-step that in its attempt to appease multiple playstyles, it fails to give one what it really wants.
>>94396526His boundless determination to be a hero in face of being powerless is a viable One Unique Thing, but even then everything in the show up to his inheriting the power is backstory. His One Unique Thing is the power granted to him by Muscledaddy America.
>>94397036It's a bit generous to call it a system. It provides almost no support for actually incorporating relationship dice into the session. I don't know if this is changed in 2e.
I personally don't like the range increment system. It gets really confusing when you have multiple entities at different ranges.
>>94401557I tossed it out and use zones from Fate
>>94401557I've always found it to be simple but also used tokens rather than pure theater of the mind. Being precise about ranges is going to hurt more than help as they are meant to be loose and interpreted on the fly.
>>94401335It is a system, technically, but needed to provide waaaaaay more guidance and ideas on how to interpret die results. I don't blame groups which toss Icon Dice out the door for being more trouble than they are worth. I've done so myself. Thankfully, the system is getting a rework for 2e, though I don't know the details.
I did plenty of playtesting of 13th Age 2e gamma. I ran a total of 133 combats and 16 noncombat sequences.https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T2-JR-iayrjEx5WwTRhYt3dqjgoMEIQQ7flm6mAIWv0/edit
>>94405682So has the Icon Dice system seen any dramatic improvements?
>>94405714It has been renovated. Whether or not it has been renovated enough is for you to decide once you see it.
Well, I guess the new implementation of Icon Dice as metacurrency is technically better than just telling GMs to figure it out, but it's nothing to get excited about.
>>94405682What are some of your favorite changes? Favorite build so far?
>>94392287>Why can't some of them be just some guy on the road?Well, wouldn't that be their One Unique Thing? In a world of people who have a One Unique Thing, this special snowflake isn't special at all.
>>94406898>What are some of your favorite changes?I do not think that much has actually changed overall. 2e seems to be a series of minor tweaks here and there, rather than any major overhauls.>Favorite build so far?I have a class and tier list analysis document here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/176GRa7xitZAmNqfW49mp7qu_M-g6a5WllBzdO4ZuCr0/edit
>>94406889Handing out bennies to be exchanged for narrative boons is how I tended to handle rolled successes in 1e. Never did figure out how to handle success/complication rolls, though.
>>94406737KYS Edna
>>94406967As someone who likes rogues, I agree that rogues in 13th age get the short end of the stick, so it kind of sucks that they aren't really doing much with them this time around as well. In fact, they added way more restrictions, for some reason.At least the new rush attack is more fun to play than sneak attack, but all the limitations on rogue abilities suck when the rogue's abilities aren't even that good in the first place.
>>94387456I chose "the only living male" once & my GM accepted it much to the stunned annoyance of the other players who were retroactively forced to be women. Absolutely hilarious game too.
>>94407290Did you expect this to be turned down? Because that's a crazy thing to alter
>>94409479Kinda. I was mostly just fucking around for laughs but my GM though it would be hilarious to okay it. So I was the only male in the world, some kind of crazy magic had stopped all men from being born but i was saved under mysterious circumstance (i was an orphan left outside a temple). Led to a lot of funny moments, & the other players initially getting really pissed off at us.
Does 13th Age have an Artificer class that's worth a damn? Something comparable to the 3.5 artificer
>>94409543Not an official one that I've seen but you could do the old classic of fluffing a Wizard as an inventor. Here's the SRD:https://www.13thagesrd.com/classes/Here's a version some guy made but I can't say anything about its performance:https://13thage.org/index.php/classes/470-the-artificer
>>94390312Honestly, it reads better than it plays. Its focus is on combat, combat, and more combat. Moreso than even 5ed (at least 5ed fully stats out enemies for example). And as others have posted here, the balance between classes is bad and the guidelines for balancing encounters aren't great (but they -never- are as there's too many variables involved for any type of CR system to be useful). But what 13th Age does do well I feel is that it gets a GM's creativity going. "Here's a book on generating Ages for your setting, here's a book with some neat ideas for various old familiar monsters, why don't you come up with some unique features for your character using these guidelines, here's a class that only one player in the setting gets to follow." Now, if your tastes lean more towards battlegrids, THAC0 calculations, and worrying about the mechanical distinctions between a halberd and a voulge, then stuff like Leprechauns getting a free teleport whenever the players (not characters!) use a specific word is probably twee(t) enough to piss you off and you'll likely find the game a waste of time. Which is cool! I wouldn't try to sell a vegan on a steakhouse either. tl;dr - 13th Age is such a fun read I want to play it, but such a limited game I wouldn't.
>>94406932Exactly. "What makes you special?""You mean beyond being willing to pick up a sword and go explore dungeons and fight dragons?""Yes. That's not unique enough.""Nothing then.""Really? No tragic backstory? No hidden powers?""What? No. I picked up a sword and went off to fight dragons because I was mad that a dragon burned my village. Nothing special about that.""How would you feel if I made your character utterly forgetable? Like city guards forget what you look like? When the demon is choosing who to target it overlooks you? That sort of stuff.""What? No. My guy isn't special, he's normal.""Fine. Maybe sometimes enemies just assume you're a hireling and focus on the 'important' folk, and sometimes they target you exclusively to 'kill a minor underling and make a point', and I decide which with a coin toss?""Whatever.""Yeah, you're not going to have a lot of fun in this. I'll holler for you when we're playing something else."
>>94411138The rules on OUT are vague enough they could be read as "what makes you stand out from the rest of the party", I think some of the examples in the book are like that even.Now, unless you're playing a party of dwarves you should be able to find at least some distinctive features.
I was heavily disappointed by this system. I kept being told this was 4e's successor but it is anything but 4e.
>>94411138>I picked up a sword and went off to fight dragons because I was mad that a dragon burned my village.That's an OUT.
>>94407264Really? I always liked 13th Age Rogues and they never felt underperforming to me.
>>94411810They don't really have a niche, and the amount of cool stuff that they can do is limited compared to other classes.
>>94411361>I kept being told this was 4e's successorI'm not sure who keeps telling people this or why. 13th Age by design tries to capture a general DnD vibe. It does not attempt to follow after one edition. It's especially misleading to die hard 4e fans who would probably appreciate 13th Age's approach the least.
>>94411821I see them as the opposite. Typically they have more to play around with and are especially adept at sneak/charisma applications. The Barbarian and the Paladin are actual limited classes but that is by design.
>>94411830At this point I have to imagine it's 4e's most ardent haters who think this was a better successor to 3.5. Cause I was expecting things like battle grids, proper tactical board movement, better done monster manual and I got something closer to PBTA on the narrative scale.
>>94412056>I got something closer to PBTA on the narrative scaleOnly in the broadest sense that ignores other narrative-leaning RPGs, I think. 13th Age has it's own approach of DnD-ish mechanics with narrative interjections. And while I personally favor that mix over any edition of DnD that I have played, it will not and does not appeal to everyone. I wonder if this 4e successor conceit is born from a lack of other familiar reference points (i.e. terminal edition war brainworms).
>>94412250it's from having the lead designer of 4e as one of the creators and people not bothering to read into the book.>4e guy makes new fantasy rpg, must be his true 4e without corporate meddlingthis was a prevalent mindset in the late 2000s with designers in 3e making their own 3rd party stuff or new d20 games the way the wanted them (supposedly)
>>94412359Yeah this makes a lot of sense when put that way.
>>94411107What's the strongest class(es)?
>>94413588https://docs.google.com/document/d/176GRa7xitZAmNqfW49mp7qu_M-g6a5WllBzdO4ZuCr0/editYou can have a look at the tier list here for the 2e gamma playtest classes.
>>94413709Cool. Kinda crazy to see a Ranger of all things take top spot
>>94414679I don't know how it is in the new edition, but I always saw it as the choice between being a ranger-flavored ranger or a ranger in name only with boring but effective DPR abilities. Being able to attack twice is pretty fucking good in most any game.
>>94414679It's the same as it was in 4e. So it might be a Heinsoo thing
>>94407264>>94411810>>94414679>>94414731>>94414911I write about my experiences GMing for rangers and rogues here:https://docs.google.com/document/d/176GRa7xitZAmNqfW49mp7qu_M-g6a5WllBzdO4ZuCr0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.xkopwm4gkrdahttps://docs.google.com/document/d/176GRa7xitZAmNqfW49mp7qu_M-g6a5WllBzdO4ZuCr0/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.unaqfyvgcyy2Whether you compare them at 1st level or at the highest level, 10th, the Twin Arrows ranger winds up at the highest tier of the list, while the rogue ends up at the bottom.The Twin Arrows ranger has so much going for it: 7 base hit points, 14 base AC, multiattacks (faint echoes of the D&D 4e ranger are present here) made especially consistent by the Twin Arrows adventurer-tier feat, attacks that cannot be intercepted by virtue of being ranged, avoidance of opportunity attacks via Combat Archery (whose adventurer-tier feat is a free critical 1/arc), and a plethora of quick actions with which to churn out even more damage: Lethal Hunter, Skirmisher, Animal Companion.The rogue is stuck with 6 base hit points and 12 base AC, and has to fight tooth and nail to land just the right Rush Attack or Sneak Attack, which probably is not going to deal as much damage as a Twin Arrows ranger actually using their feats and quick actions.Never underestimate the sheer strength of "I get to attack multiple times."
>>94417428Dies 13th Age not have caster supremacy?
>>94418215I also put clerics, Evocation/VPV wizards, and Evil Way paladins very high on the tier list. Clerics and wizards are obviously casters, and paladins may be considered "casters" depending on your definition.I stand by my assessment of the gamma playtest barbarian and melee fighter being only a notch above the rogue: at baseline for earnestly saying, "The optimization ceiling of this class feels competent during tough fights," but no more than that. The gamma barbarian and the melee fighter just do not have that much going for them.Sure, it feels fantastic when the gamma barbarian's luck-based abilities all fortunately activate, and the barbarian rips through enemies. But it also feels bad when those same abilities fail to activate, and the barbarian is reduced to vanilla weapon swings. Under the context of optimization ceilings and tough combats, consistency is key.
>>94417428I've never felt like the rogue has to fight tooth and nail for anything. I'm not doubting the numbers, but they just have not made that much of a difference in my games. That might be partly due to the rogue class being the more interesting one to play with, but that is subjective.
>>944186232hu doesn't think like people do, so while his assessment isn't wrong, it also rarely applicable to games that aren't all about builds and numbers and optimization
>>94418623>>94418767Yes, my tier list is based on: (1) optimization ceiling, and (2) tough fights with high MEQs. If the group is not particularly engaged in the optimization side of the game, if the game does not feature particularly hard battles, or both, then any differences in power between classes will make less of an impact.Another factor is that 2e seems to be downgrading the rogue in some aspects. Tumble? Down from +5 to just +2. Tumbling Strike? Down from +5 to just +1.I have no idea why the designers think that the rogue deserves downgrades, of all things, in 2e.
>>94419106Have you reported these concerns to the power that be?
>>94419287Yes.
>>94419319Excellent.
