>>94393391
No hope.
No hope.

>>94393391
>TQ: Thoughts on 3e Alchemicals and Autochtonia lore?
The pictures in the other thread have cooled my barely lukewarm interest in 3E's version of them, why buff human lady and not buff machine lady?

>>94393427
They want the Last Of Us 2 audience.

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>>94393391
Not real

>>94393391
A lot of it feels like change for the sake of change. I think I'm going to use alchemicals 3e lore the least since 2e lore is really good.

>>94393427
Because rich needs to suck up as much income as he can so he can't even get the decent- mid-tier options like 2e could and is going for bottom of the barrel garbage.

>Autochthon has more words and weight attributed to him than Luna in the Luranume writeup.
I think it was more or less the same in bastions of the north.

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Luna is actually mentioned more in 1e

>>94393456
Why no buff machine lady though?

>>94393611
Mel's artwork looks more bronze like, I think it is just the artist not knowing how to draw robots.

>>94393391
I can't wait for 3e to die.

Does anyone have the PDF of the Alch release so far to be downloaded? The kickstarter says it's for backers only.

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>"stop complaining about thing it won't change!"
>mfw looking at an entire edition that pivoted twice because of a small cult of forumites/discordians who have premium access to the writers also complaining about things
Maybe /exg/ should improve on its PR and start complaining with more coordination and direct focus.

>>94394025
You need to understand white wolfism, they weren't heard because they talked to the devs.
They were heard because they are a justification for the stuff the writers were going to do anyway.

See the "game balance is a myth" or the exp system.

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Four legs good, two legs bad!

Did they add anything new with the Alchemical book?

>>94394132
The photo blushed background made it hard to understand what was happening

>>94394065
>See the "game balance is a myth" or the exp system
It's just such a retarded take for the sake of pseudo realism. I guess it's one of those things you are better off using the CofD version of the system. Speaking of that, does anyone have a translation of the Clash of Wills rules for Exalted 1e?

>>94394330
I doubt it but it would be interesting if we got some stuff stolen from Rainworld. Like a story line about how most of Autochtonia is going to shit because a couple of Organ/Gods tried to kill themselves.

>>94394503
In Demake, it is a Willpower roll.

>>94394132
This digital art is so soulless
...
It breaks my heart.

>>94394932
It is photobashing

>>94394942
Because it needs to be cheap and quick.

>>94395044
AI is even cheaper and faster and would have looked much better.

>>94395073
I think they used AI for the Haslanti League’s pic.

There were other AI-like pics too, like the Exigents with weird legs or the 3 legged spirits.

>no blight rules because we don't want players to get blighted
>No metropolis rules because they don't want anything challenging
Fuck 3e.

>>94395256
Wasn't metropolis/colossus moved to charms?

>>94395320
From what I could tell from the discord the devs found that they couldn't make it into something players could interact with. Which makes me ask why would you change how it works if you find it too hard to deal with. Metropolis rules were half the reason I wanted 3e and we won't even get them.

>>94395462
It is unfortunate that the devs have not noticed that when they don't give rules, they are also making the life of the ST harder.

Not everything needs to be player facing, for example thaumaturgy made the world more colorful regardless if it was meta or not.

>>94395497
The devs are idiots. They change things just to change them so they can say they've made their mark or fixed something "problematic" when half the time it wasn't an issue and it wasn't problematic in any context but a symptom of living in a specific setting. But the devs don't want something comparable to an actual playable world. They just want a sterile one dimensional version of it and I'm sick of it.

>>94395517
The strange thing is the same happened over masquerade, personal horror kicked "red mafia" and "vampions" from their crackhead simulator.

Ironically enough not even themselves play it as intended.

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>Additionally, Alchemicals are incapable of sexual reproduction. It’s unknown what would come of an Alchemical employing a neomah or other magic to have a child.

>Fertile Benediction (15m; Simple; Instant; Eclipse; Essence 3): Afondha blesses the supplicant with fertility, ensuring conception with their next informed and willing partner regardless of whether they could normally conceive a child with that partner, as long as at least one of them has a womb.

What do Alchemical babby look like?

>>94396051
Depends on the caste, they may also be mistaken for earth aspect dragon blooded.

>>94396051
eraserhead

>>94396051
>>94396144
so, autochtonian elemental machine-blooded?

im into it.

So, I was taking a look through the Abyssal preview, and is it just me, or are Solars better at killing things with Archery than Abyssals are?

Abyssals have a copy of one half of the Solar intant-kill combo (the charm that lets them reflexively make a Decisive attack against anyone who gets initiative crashed within their range), but not the other (the charm that lets them make additional withering attacks until they either miss an attack or the target gets crashed).

>>94393427
Where can I find the PDF?

>>94396823
It is backer only, the pictures are on backerkit

>>94396216
I wonder what their stats would be like?

>>94397253
The same as any other spirit-blooded: mortals with some minor Spirit Charms, and they only retain the Eclipse charms if they Exalt.

>>94396051
>It’s unknown what would come of an Alchemical [doing something very simple and easy which many of them would be interested in]
Thanks 3e. Very numinous.

>What do Alchemical babby look like?
Clay-skinned humans, I think. There's a particular texture I'm thinking of that's very much like that, and very nice.

>>94396314
>is it just me, or are Solars better at killing things with Archery than Abyssals are?
No, I don't think so. I think they're roughly comparable. Abyssals don't have mirrors of every Solar charm, but they have powerful charms of their own.

>>94397842
>Thanks 3e. Very numinous.
Why would many of them be interested in using magic to have children, is there anyone summoning neomah in Autochthonia, are other magics that could create children actually simple and easy when considering just what Alchemicals and Autochthonian mortals can do, and were the previous editions any less numinous in this respect?

>>94398711
why would no one know about it if there isn't a hard restriction on making children through abstract methods. why would players OOC be told it's a mystery if there's actually alchemicals in creation who could summon neomahs or do workings at 1cd. they could solve the mystery in session 1, which isn't really much of a mystery and has no barrier to it, so why is it a mystery?

>>94398723
I dunno, anon. Maybe the devs didn't want to spend wordcount on something that's currently not a thing. Maybe they wanted to focus on Alchemicals not having children by default as one of the things that distinguishes them from humans and other Exalts, and felt like giving details about what a hypothetical Alchemical kid might be like would distract from this. Again, though, were the previous editions any less numinous about this?

>>94398736
>that distinguishes them from humans
Alchemicals are explicitly and repeatedly described as being humans

>>94398711
>Why would many of them be interested in using magic to have children
Alchemicals get horny. They're also people with memories of many lives, and it stands to reason that at least some of them have attachment to the idea from those past experiences or their circumstances in the present. Also, you've added this 'many' clause yourself - I didn't say 'many', I think that some, at least some, would be interested, and that should be enough.

>is there anyone summoning neomah in Autochthonia
No? Obviously? You can't demon summon into Malfeas. That has somewhere between nothing and very little to do with what we're discussing though - neomah are not the only means two usually incompatible Exalted can get with children by a long shot.

>are other magics that could create children actually simple and easy when considering just what Alchemicals and Autochthonian mortals can do
Yes. Autochthonia is a wonderland of artifice, and they either have sorcery or weaver protocols depending on which way 3e takes that. Either could do it, and if anybody's going to have access to those resources it's Alchemicals, the most likely people to be interested in finding out what happens if you use them.

>were the previous editions any less numinous in this respect?
They are infertile, and magical procreation either doesn't work or produces clearly magical lifeforms. Neomah and similar flesh-mixing methods don't work because Alchemicals are made of clay, but voidtech could get you Integrated Genesis Systems, which at least make clear that there are no half-castes or similar.

>>94398736
>I dunno, anon. Maybe the devs didn't want to spend wordcount on something that's currently not a thing.
Alchemicals are playable in Creation though at baseline and have no restrictions on summoning.
also lol wordcount
>Additionally, Alchemicals are incapable of sexual reproduction without magic. Success creates the taboo Cogspawn (See: Divine Heritage, WFHW p. xx) based on their parent’s Caste.
This has equal word count than their current one and is actually actionable information and does not introduce a weird setting element that you can immediately determine the nature of within the first session of any game. Not sure why exactly you're trying to defend this so vehemently?

>>94398736
>I dunno, anon. Maybe the devs didn't want to spend wordcount on something that's currently not a thing
This doesn't explain every single other examples of the devs wasting word count.

>>94398778
>Alchemicals get horny.
Yeah, and if they jut act on getting horny, they won't have children. They can fuck just fine, I'm pretty sure. Having children takes additional and intentional effort beyond that for them.

>Also, you've added this 'many' clause yourself
No, I didn't. I replied to >>94397842, which says that
>>It’s unknown what would come of an Alchemical [doing something very simple and easy which many of them would be interested in]
>Thanks 3e. Very numinous.

>>94398783
nta but i can do one better
>swap word 'taboo' for 'controversial'
>suddenly a concept that was just a generic black box is now something that each of your tables can think about and add your own individuality to while still having a decent grounding on what it is you're actually talking about.
>How does Estasia differ in its treatment of Machine-bloods than Nurad? Do some nations like it under certain circumstances? Would some people compare it to the already controversial Dragonblooded?
>gives a decent underpinning of what the concept is while allowing the freedom for tables to think and ponder about it without needing large dedicated paragraphs per Nation about it

>>94398883
That's worse, not better. Best way would be just to say that Alchemicals aren't flesh and blood and don't have kids, and leave it at that.

How does the book handles communities?

>>94398778
>They're also people with memories of many lives, and it stands to reason that at least some of them have attachment to the idea from those past experiences or their circumstances in the present. Also, you've added this 'many' clause yourself - I didn't say 'many', I think that some, at least some, would be interested, and that should be enough.
You are thinking like a person in setting, not like the "hype atomized modern day individual" it was written for.

>No one posted the Alchemicals manuscripts yet.

/exg/ is dead.

>>94398913
Nah, cyborg children are cool.

>>94398979
You can make your cyborgs the old-fashioned way, by giving humans magitechnological prosthetics and implants and shit. Letting Alchemicals have children is a step towards making the just funny-looking dudes rather than robo-dudes who're built different from other people in meaningful ways. That's not cool at all.

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>>94399012
That alchemical looks more human than most 3e humans, specially that one Sovereign used for merchandise

>>94399012
This edition has gone a step further than previous editions by making them different from other Exalts. They don't need to breathe, eat or sleep. Having exalt-blooded doesn't outweigh the massive changes those 3 additions did. Gonna guess you'll sperg about it though

>>94399041
If "sperg about it" is code for "disagree with you" here, I might.

>>94399057
>doesn't even try to argue it
Cool

>>94399080
Argue what? I'm not going to pretend to agree with you, anon, and it's pretty weird if you expected me to.

>>94399092
NTA but he gave reasons why they're less like regular humans this edition that disputes your point about having robot children making them too much like humans and you just uh, kind of never responded to that? You just said you disagreed without explanation?

FTR I think robot children like that are cool and are distinct from just stitching metal onto someone.

>>94399132
Yeah, I kind of felt like the point where anon started talking about "sperging about" things rather than just disagreeing with them was the point where reasonable, good-faith discussion ended. To address the actual point, anon did give reasons for why Alchies are less like humans in this edition, but he didn't exactly even try to make an argument for why those changes would outweigh the ability to have children when considering the overall humanity/inhumanity of Alchemicals. Why am I expected to make more of a detailed argument, here? I think it's cool if Alchemicals don't have to eat, sleep or breathe, but these things don't really have any bearing on whether Alchemical offspring should be a thing.

Viktor from LoL was reworked from Alchemical to be a Hearteater.

People always have negative things to say about 3e art and while some of it may be deserved, I'm curious; what or who would you replace it with?

>>94400331
I don't just replacing the artists will fix it, there is a problem with the art direction itself.

See Mel's artwork, compare it with at the gates'

>>94400331
Pay people who are good at drawing an appropriate amount so they can actually deliver high quality work. And have a specific set of themes and styles that are decided in advance, match the aesthetic of the setting they're writing and are consistent throughout

>>94399192
I think one of the reasons it's a problem is not needing to eat, sleep, and breath is a benefit that would be nice to have, while being unable to have children is a sacrifice that partially alienates them from their fellow man.

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How much do you think Alchemicals will make? Around Exigents/Abyssals?

>>94401004
>Backer Kit
Probably less. They need to close out these fucking kickstarters faster.

>>94401018
Aren't they still releasing Solar stretch goals

>>94401018
At least it's not Indiegogo with it's special opt-out tip.

>>94400331
The artists that do Kult, the artists that do At The Gates. Anyone who is not from the Philippines or Indonesia basically.

>>94398711
>and were the previous editions any less numinous in this respect?
Adding to what others have said, previous editions went as far as to describe what an alchemical/voidtech pregnancy looked like

>>94399041
>>94400930
>They don't need to breathe, eat or sleep
They didn't need to eat or breath in earlier editions either, the only change is removing the need to sleep, it was noted in previous editions that breathing was just needed to talk, while not eating would lower mote recovery, but not doing either of those things wouldn't kill or harm them

>>94401264
Mel Uran does art for at the gates too, tge change in quality is noticeable.

>Philippines or Indonesia basically.
I think it is funny that from time to time I find a better artist from SEA over Twitter.

Where do I find the rules for the Jade born?

>>94401945
There are no rules in 3e yet.

>>94401945
1e: player guide (?)
2e: scroll of the fallen races
3e: N/A

>>94401826
individuals from SEA are good, companies are not.

Anyone know what's the maximum (or highest known) number of 3rd Circle souls a Primordial or Yozi can have?
Devil-Tigers can have up to 15 IIRC.

Also, has anyone ever used those options from Glories of the Most High where a Incarna dies and someone inherits their power/status?

>>94402170
Jacint is Adojan's Eighteenth soul, so at least 18

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>>94402066
I didn't see them in 1e Player's Guide, so odds are they became playable in 2e.

>>94402270
From Google, apparently they are in the fair folk book.

>>94401762
>They didn't need to eat or breath in earlier editions either, the only change is removing the need to sleep, it was noted in previous editions that breathing was just needed to talk, while not eating would lower mote recovery, but not doing either of those things wouldn't kill or harm them
I thought as much, but I couldn't recall for sure.

>>94402170
>Devil-Tigers can have up to 15 IIRC.
Point of order, the phrasing is they can have
>(Willpower + Compassion) Third Circle demons created by this Charm in existence at a time.
This implies they can both have more if they have some effect to raise their Willpower or Compassion above the typical maximum, AND that they can create more via other charms
Personally, it's the latter option that I think most Primordials do to go over the typical amount, mostly cause we know Theon's double fetch soul was based on a charm and Ruvelia was his 23rd soul, so the answer may be "Theoretically infinite, given an infinite amount of XP"

>>94400331
UdonCrow.

>some of it may be deserved
Don't beat around the bush, nearly all of it fucking sucks.

>>94398979
As a regular seether about 3e, yeah honestly I have to agree cyborg children are cool. That said I'm pissed off at the business model and design philosophy of 3e that I'm not backing shit this time, not even to withdraw my money later, don't want to give their marketing department any hope.

>>94395256
I FUCKING KNEW IT.

>>94402544
in 2nd ed, alchemicals need to eat to stay healthy.
there's a charm called "sustenance replication engine" that reduce the food needed to stay healthy to 1 pound of organic matter per day. (alchemicals cant starve to death but they stop regenerating motes if not eating for too long)

alchemicals only use for breathing is to speak.

>>94402170
>Anyone know what's the maximum (or highest known) number of 3rd Circle souls a Primordial or Yozi can have?
2e Gods and Demons pg45:
The maximum number of third circle souls a Primordial/Yozi can have is unclear. Each of the defeated Primordials has at least 12 third circle souls. Autochthon has less and was mocked for it, and Gaia may have had less as the youngest Primordial, though it's possible those two concealed some of their deva. Adorjan has 20, Adrian had 20 (implying that killing the fetich to cripple a Primordial into a Yozi does not reduce their total 3CD count), and Theion had 23.

Are there proper rules for manses yet? Like, I know there's that one ghost house in the antagonists book, but is there anything other than that?

>>94404477
Towers of the Mighty has been in Approval hell for about ten years or so.

>>94402170
>(Ebon Dragon) Pantheon Unfurling (Cost: [Essence x 100] m; Mins: Essence 10; Type: Simple; Duration: Instant;
Keywords: Blasphemy, Shaping; Prerequisites: Ebon Dragon Conceptual Harmony): By paying 100 motes per
dot of permanent Essence (capped at 9 for non-fetiches), the Ebon Dragon spawns a Third Circle soul with full motes. If he lacks a fetich, he is irresistibly compelled to spawn one as soon as he can pay the cost. If his fetich is destroyed, the Ebon Dragon ceases to exist except as an Essence pool that can’t be interacted with, imploding all component souls into himself. He recovers motes until he has enough to create a new fetich, redefining himself as a new Yozi with similar Storyteller-defined themes. If a Green Sun Prince knows any of his Charms, the new Yozi remains equally powerful; otherwise, diminishment is likely. He can’t possess more than (Willpower + highest Virtue) Third Circle souls beyond his fetich, lacking Charms to grow via Progenitive souls as many other Yozis do.
The ED in 2E would have 12 souls and he couldn't gain more via other methods.
Malfeas explicitly had 23, and Gunstar said that he had a charm tree that gave birth to Ligier when he was Theion. Probably SWLiHN had more than 15 due to her having super-virtues even without the whole Progenitive soul business.

>>94404788
Considering CoL and At8D, it isn't high priority.

Onyx Path focuses more kickstarters.

>>94405338
Still, though, it'd be nice to have rules for them. It'd be interesting to see what First Age Manses are like, at least. I hear they're going to KS getimians and Liminals as well.

>>94405354
Yes, the real question is what will happen after these 2.

>manse rules.
I think they will remove the the "ninja interior design" paradigm, SLS hates it.

>>94405445
Can I get a QRD on what "ninja interior design" means? I heard the manse power system of 2e was liked well enough by the devs that they might bring it back.

>SLS
He's still around? I thought he left.

>>94405515
Ancient joke about manse logistics.

https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-this-old-manse.124358/

>>94402066
1e is Exalted: the Fair Folk. They're in the back half.

>>94406472
i still have vietnam flashback of when i was reading graceful wicked masque.

>>94407308
Reading their section in QE was like hitting a wall.

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>>94407606
I literally never included them in my game for over a year because that long ass fucking text destroyed me.

I went back to 1e Fair Folk to try and understand it, and now I do. For any poor souls that will make our journey, just know that Shaping Combat literally never fucking matters unless you want to do just one of them. Gossamer using Charms are the ones you want to look for unless you want to specifically do Shaping Combat.

Does make me wonder how QE Fair Folk might look if it had post errata Graceful Wicked Masque inspirations.

>>94407308
>pour through 6 paragraphs of lore and 15 pages of strange, byzantine mechanics
>"Oh yeah and 75% of this shit turns into illusions and weird mutations in Creation lol"
I'm actually kind of impressed at the sheer audacity that went into GWM being written and published, imagine forcing players to read that shit only to turn around and cackle about it not mattering the moment the game is set in Creation.

>>94407782
Honestly as someone who despises 3e, I completely understand the decision to just make Raksha be weird spirits with Charms that do situational weird spirit things like conjure cities that don't technically exist.

>>94409933
>I'm actually kind of impressed at the sheer audacity that went into GWM being written and published, imagine forcing players to read that shit only to turn around and cackle about it not mattering the moment the game is set in Creation.
It's a very Raksha thing to do

>>94409952
Truly, the real Graceful Wicked Masques were the friends we made along the way. While we're still talking about the absurdity of 2e jank (and yes, even though it's my favourite edition it IS janky as fuck) I like how RotSE has a plot device that lets Raksha Shaping work in Creation that I assume exists because of sunk cost fallacy for those rules mattering in any way, shape or form.

And it's temporary.

It's a temporary MacGuffin that exists to let Raksha be plot-relevant for the length of a scene and then it's just gone forever.

>>94409963
>It's a temporary MacGuffin that exists to let Raksha be plot-relevant for the length of a scene and then it's just gone forever.
That is also a very Raksha thing to do

>We will, we will, Raksha!

>>94409963
>While we're still talking about the absurdity of 2e jank (and yes, even though it's my favourite edition it IS janky as fuck) I like how RotSE has a plot device that lets Raksha Shaping work in Creation that I assume exists because of sunk cost fallacy for those rules mattering in any way, shape or form.
I appreciate RotSE canonizing that Swar, who is a level five Freehold and not the fastest of unshaped raksha by a long shot, is able to make the run from Crystal all the way to the Deep Wyld without perishing. It contextualizes the threat of the Wyld for me, and doesn't at all conflict with their mechanics, even though it means that those mechanics actually work like they say they do.

>the Alchemical Universal-Dexterity charm manuscript has been released
>still no paypig posting the manuscripts in this thread or newvola.

>>94411213
Apathy is worse than hatred.

>>94411213
I still haven’t seen the first PDF to be fair.

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I demand stories of your characters in tribute.

>>94411880
In tribute for showing us one charm?

>>94412130
I could post more, but you sure are boring.

>Alchemicals get illusions and shapeshifting
Why even play lunars?

>>94411880
i don't care too much about alchemicals, but i do this for all those brave nogamers who perfume this thread

>Full Moon and his Dawn friend go to some silly little arena ceremonial ritual about who can be yada yada in this nomad religion, heavy downpour on that day
>obviously wipe the floor with the challengers in the opening rounds not being subtle at all about how they outclass every mortal in humiliating ways. The Dawn was juggling five people at once with one hand while the Full Moon turned every piece of his opponents armour into powder and snorted it like cocaine
>said his armour didn't have enough rock salts in it
>some brave kid who is participating in the festival throws a rock at my characters and tells him to quit ruining the festivities for everyone
>his mom comes over and suggests we should just become part of the challenges rather than challengers

it was a sort of mini tutorial session for the ST at the time who wasn't too confident with the system, but I thought it was fairytale esque. the session afterwards we broke up a fight between two Abyssals, one of which we were looking for, then had a terse social battle in a tavern. Our characters are low resolve retards so we got gyped

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>>94412385
Please don't fucking do this to me. I cannot take the absolute pain of having people be smugly incorrect and say "Well Lunars have never really had illusion charms, it was mentioned in a single line in the corebook and never again :^)" or "What about Essential Mirror Nature broooo" don't do this to me it hurts every fucking time

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>>94412435
Oh nice

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>>94412435
>>94412481

>>94412491
interesting, they say -to- Elsewhere rather than just Elsewhere.

>>94411880
Is the colossus stuff in strength?

>>94412444
To be fair it is more "unfortunately Lunars never had illusions, despite the books repeatedly mentioning them having illusions".

>>94412481
Oh, thanks.

>>94412512
No, its in universal so anyone can take it at essense 5

>>94412500
Oh! I did not catch that.

>>94412444
I don’t recall them ever being mentioned as illusionists in 3e. I also don’t get the interest in illusions, it seems kind of redundant with everything the Exalted in general can do, as you can be stealthy, scary, beguiling, perfectly disguise yourself, and so on without the caveat that it’s all fake and can be seen through at any moment. If you can explain your interest, please do.

>>94414364
Lunars are mono-dimensional angry animal exalted in 3e.

>>94414463
1. It seems more like you dislike Lunars than you actually like casting illusions as a concept.
2. Solars are mono-dimensional guys who are really generically good at things but people like playing them more than any other Exalt. Simplicity is sometimes a benefit.

>>94414571
I like Lunars, but I don't like the devs' vision of them.

Too many decomposing sacred cows

>>94414617
Have you liked/played any editions’ version of Lunars?

>>94414656
Not really, moved to Infernals.

1e charmset is rotten wood.
2e was screwed up because of Eclipse charmshare.
3e is chosen of the petting zoo, that only looks good in comparison to Solars and Dragon-Blooded.
ExVsWoD is soak beasts, since Holden never saw anything wrong with Lunars only having 3 character options.

>>94414364
>the caveat that it’s all fake and can be seen through at any moment. If you can explain your interest, please do.

Holograms and mental genjutsu have utilities that shapeshifting and disguising don’t.

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>>94414364
>I don’t recall them ever being mentioned as illusionists in 3e
The game, Lunars and people complaining about this existed way before 3e existed and was argued with Hatewheel during the development of 3e. This has no bearing on my opinions about the validity of wanting Lunars to have Illusion niches in 3e and future material.
>If you can explain your interest, please do.
It's pretty straightforward - mastery of illusions is cool, the few descriptions we had of it from 1e were unique and further gave Lunars more individual flavor from other Celestials, and under utilized in the Exalted setting as something the playable characters get to do.

The fact that mechanically only fucking Raksha (non-Exalts and earlier in the thread explained why no one wanted to play them) get it despite 1e material on Lunars constantly cock teasing that they're illusionists is something that I and presumably many others with my opinion think should have been rectified rather than accepting it was never realized therefore we're not doing it. Also the Eclipse Charms that let you do free form illusions is sort of salt upon wounds, ignoring the Dream Souled who are literally all about it but Terrestrial+Non canon to boot.

Illusions like things that Ravnos or Raksha have different uses to regular direct Social Influence and the aesthetic is amazing and totally resonant with a lot of the mythological or non mythological inspirations Lunars draw from. It's also a niche no other Exalted, other than the recently created Apocryphal Dream Souled, ever really played with it for the longest time despite the numerous associations with Exalted's moon and illusion-adjacent aesthetics like dreams, hidden informing, trickery and so on.

tl;dr it's cool, fun and gives great additional flavor to lunars that pairs nicely with their other themes and archetypes.

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>>94414963
Strange how undeveloped dreams are in general.

>>94414364
Part of why people want Lunars to have illusions is because magic animals like kitsune can do them, and they tie into the whole trickster thing. The moon has also been symbolically tied to dreams, and to illusions do to the tarot. There's also a natural phenomena called the Moon illusion, where the Moon appears bigger than it actually is the closer it is to the horizon. One reason I like them is that illusions are away to extend shape-shifting themes to the environment. It would let you do stuff like take a broken down old house and make it look like it's inhabited and well-furnished.

I cannot believe that no one has posted the backer Alchemical PDF yet.

>>94410199
Wait, are there actually mechanics for Unshaped turning into freeholds? I must've memoryholed them while I was staring at the Behemoths and trying to figure out if Creation-born actually need to worry about fighting them or not.

>>94411213
Yeah what >>94411693 said, I'm reserving my wrath for whatever 3e does to Infernals. I have absolututely no investment in 3e Alchemicals at all.

>>94412444
It could be worse.
People could be talking about how Lunars didn't have Social Charms intil 2e.
People could be pointing out that Lunars started out from such a shitty place, that overall their mechanics in 3e have been a genuine improvement despite losing the ability to turn into spirits or geography.

>>94414853
>3e is chosen of the petting zoo, that only looks good in comparison to Solars and Dragon-Blooded.
It's really funny to me how obvious the favouritism is when you see not just what Sidereals can do, but how much flavour goes into their artifacts. Abyssals is more an exercise in the devs understanding their own system than anything, I don't get the same flickers of genuine passion that went into Sidereals.

>>94414853
>Better shapeshifting
>Better territory control
>Cooler warforms
>Actual illusions
Honestly understandable

>>94415602
I think they had something resembling a social charm in 1e, they didn't have appearance charms.

Despite the touting, WW has a love-hate relationship with social systems.

>>94415611
Sidereals was Vance's baby, he even broke his own code and worked on it before it officially started.

>>94415624
It is like Crucible of Legends said, every thing/"play loop" Lunars do, is done better with another splat.

>>94415702
Kek, Crucible of Legends actually said that? Between that and "have you considered playing the Realm but without Dragonblooded" it sounds like Crucible of Legends is very tacitly trying to tell you to stop playing Exalted at all

>>94415670
>WW has a love-hate relationship with social systems.
I still maintain that the best potential system to run Exalted in is Chronicles of Darkness, between the Tilt system, relatively streamlined spirit rules, and Mummy/Demon/Beast (STRICTLY at a mechanical level) proving the system can do powerful but localised and relatively high concept conflict

>>94415723
Too bad ExCofD is pretty lackluster.

>>94415718
>Core Concepts
>The Lunar Exalted are not as overwhelming as the
Solars, or as numerous as the Dragon-Blooded; they are
neither as esoteric as the Sidereals nor as grim as the
Abyssals. Instead, they stand at the crossroads between
all of them, flexible enough to fit into almost any Exalted
story — but heroic enough to more than merit their own
tales.

>>94415723
NWoD has the advantage of a tier system.

Because of this its Hunter could do imbued style games no problem.

>>94415733
Yeah. It really suffers from Holden writing without any feedback, period, despite ExWoD clearly being an attempt to address the shortcomings of 3e core.

>>94415777
ExWOD is a great system, it’s just missing some parts. ExCOFD, is a little lackluster.

>>94415808
>ExWoD is a great system
I would say it's a great system for combat, then falls apart when it tries anything else. In some cases, like artifact-making, it's clear Holden at first did not think too deeply about Mage rules-and then thought too hard and came up with a system that just isn't worth the effort. There's also the issue of how some systems, like prayer-eating, are by his own admission fucked up by design but that his autism thinks the Exalted deserve. To be fair Anathema are really cool, but for how limited the designated antagonist section is it would've been neat if some Exalts could use it too without fearing the consequences.

>>94414963
I think that some illusionary utility is fine, but I think it diminishes how weird the raksha are in-setting if their whole thing about being creatures made of dream stuff that craft terrible falsehoods can be done and outperformed by beings aligned with Creation. I also think that wanting Creation to conform to IRL mythology is tricky; it definitely is inspired by Classical and Chinese mythology, but Jupiter in Exalted isn’t at all similar to Jupiter of the Romans, for instance.

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>>94415850
In my view-
+Scene Long Excellences and smaller mote pools work well. Too bad he nixed this in Revised.
+Essence per Turn is better then Combos
+Charms lacking trees is generally an improvement though a few short trees would be an improvement
+The Charmsets for most of the Exalts are fun but a bit samey and some are underwhelming. Luckily no trees means you can port whatever you want.
-No Social System, Bureaucracy or Social Projects
-No Battlegroups [though Black Vault adds them]
-Crafting needs work
-No higher end sorcery or broad scale charms
-WoD combat is bad though Exalts make it as fun as it reasonably can be

It’s definitely the best chassis Exalted has ever had, if you do what I did and port back in all the stuff Holden left out.

>>94415892
I compare it unfavourably to CofD because I just really appreciate how similar the Demon the Descent experience feels to what playing Alchemicals should have felt like in some respects (even if the developers themselves admitted angels were comically undertuned for the threat they were supposed to represent) but yeah, in terms of things actually named "Exalted" I can't think of better.

Also tbqh playing it in Bountiful Essence + Power Beyond Measure mode is the objectively correct way to play it, and Holden needs to get over his unwillingness to put buster swords in a setting where wizards can go to Mars and vampires can abuse Celerity.

>>94415977
I’ve been running since original+companion and will never switch to revised and added all the things I mentioned. My players use daiklaves and dire lances and fight Battlegroups all the time and I use social rules I adapted mostly from 3E with some changes.

>>94414963
You could honestly use alchemicals and get everything you want from lunars except literal furries now.

Are there any fan bestiaries or enemy lists for Exalted 3e

Also where is Exalted Vs Chronciles of Darkness

File: EXxCofD_-_Full_Document.pdf (1.76 MB, PDF)

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>>94416035

>>94415887
>but Jupiter in Exalted isn’t at all similar to Jupiter of the Romans, for instance.
Despite their individual names, the Maidens are a reflection of the proto-indo-european "fate sisters" archetype

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>>94416028
Well about that.....

>>94416173
Nothing new, furries were using other splats for decades at this point.

1d4chan even had a joke about a lionman solar.

>>94416206
>lionman solar
1d4chan predicted Godfrey

>>94416173
The mutations systems has been unintentionally hilarious in every edition of Exalted.

>>94416228
>1d4chan predicted Godfrey
Lions are one of the few now light or gold, sun imagery the Exalted writers actually use.

>>94415748
Well, most campaigns I see are Celestials/any Exalt allowed. I’m not sure how this is a bad design goal for them or the other nearly omni-applicable Exalts: Solars.

>>94416283
One of the big complaints about 2e lunars, was how they were defined as "can do X, but not as good as Y exalted".

>>94416290
That’s an entirely different thing than what that storyteller guide excerpt is saying, though.

Honestly I think you just prefer Infernals and aren’t really open to what people like about other Exalts. Its a little hard to talk to you because you’re basing everything off your own views.

>>94416312
It is the thing people used to complain, but worded nicely. "It is not a bug, it is a feature!"

The complaint was that Lunars were masters of none both mechanically or narratively.
The text says that it is actually an advantage.

>>94416337
The biggest issue with 3e hilariously enough is that lunar's best shit requires you to shapeshift. The protean keyword hobbles the fuck out of you.

>>94416337
I’m not sure why you’re rehashing the arguments of 2006’s Exalted fandom, considering how the people who made those arguments were basically teenagers or college students, and you’ve already said you’ve never played or liked any edition of Lunars. This is like a guy who hates cats coming into a cat cafe and saying that they need to change things for his benefit.

>>94416173
in the description of the charm it says that the mutations have to be mechanical in nature like, you dont have gazelle feet but like...rollerblade feet or something.

>be me, Kalani
>noble son of a noble dragon blooded warrior, greatest in the West in power and in ambition
>be decided not an Exalt, or particularly good at anything even by mortal standards
>except scheming and weasel words
>soniamdisappoint.jpg
>it’s fine I’ll just be a loyal lapdog to House Peleps except fuck that and fuck exalts actually this whole slavery and peasants and nobles system kinda sucks and I hate it and I hate being lesser for it I like my house slaves more than my asshole family
>help house slave friends escape
>get caught helping them escape
>soniamdissapoint.png
>it’s fine I learned my lesson after that except not really and being forced to work and manage the handling of slaves and finances just made me really good at forging ledgers and signatures and conspiring
>still not an exalt
>get caught by exalt father as a complete traitor scheming behind his back with other members of the house mortal and exalt alike
>soniamdisappoint.exe
>house Peleps has a string of people go missing how incredibly routine and basically business as usual
>it’s fine I survived thanks to an undiscovered member who wasn’t directly implicated in the conspiracy, my sister, who drug my mostly dead corpse to a yozi worshipping witch who actually managed to sew most of me back together
>it’s not fine actually, my lack of a corpse meant that there’s now a very literal witch hunt going on, and it’s successful
>son I am getting tired of your fucking shit this has gone on long enough
>get separated, go on the run, dodge Guild assassins and bounty hunters all with a very, very notable face due to aforementioned mostly dead syndrome
>flee in a hurry one stormy night during calibration on a stolen raft instead of as a stowaway or smuggled passenger
>I’m a rich kid I don’t know how to handle a boat I had people for that
>dying.jpg
>wait I’m not drowning what the fuck
>where am I
>holy shit is this Malfeas???

>>94411880
Meant to respond to this.

>continued
>I shouldn’t have neglected my studies on sorcery
>paddle onto demon infested land before my raft sinks me into a sea of acid I think her name is Kimberly or something?
>fuck shouldn’t have neglected my studies
>wander the demon city trying to not get eaten
>hear about some dragon-blooded in town with a hilarious problem about some slaves they brought to trade as blood sacrifice getting the slip of them
>introduce myself, offer to help them reclaim their slaves if they help me get the fuck out of here, also I’m totally from Peleps but only so long as you guys have no contact with them or current affairs on that side of Creation
>find their slaves hiding in a tower
>actually fuck this, fuck you, fuck me, I’d rather die to spite you than give you evil bastards one drop of blood sacrifice
>convince the slaves to an hero to spite their masters, about to do the same myself before the dragon blooded have the pleasure of even killing me themselves, my last middle finger to a fucked up world I hated
>maybe I’ll haunt them as a ghost
>cackling demon appears
>offers me not just a way out, but a way to get even
>hear the words of the Ebon Dragon
>be me
>Inalak

>>94416500
And that was how my session 0 went for my Infernal. I kinda don’t care how long they take to make the 3e book for infernals because we’re just using 2e charms and 2.75e lore. Kinda picking and choosing what we like here and there from both 2nd edition and 3rd edition. Maybe when the Infernal book drops we’ll modify or borrow some things but honestly Infernals were peak 2e imo. Also my Infernal has an Anhule merchant buddy he met him on his first unplanned trip to Malfeas. His name is Akuran and he likes making fancy clothing and eating lovers and he gets to hang out in Creation with me and do stuff.

>>94393474
Yooo I just started reading this like a day ago. I have no idea what Exalted or Creation is I just click on the thread because I saw the name and remember it from this fanfic

>>94416545
Based.

>>94415568
too much edition warring has resulted in both 2e and 3e guys leaving; the latter leaving is why no one is going to drop the previews. nothing but a few guys who play quixalted or holden’s homebrew or dudes who’ve never played ever now.

>>94416920
Between 1e, 2e and 3e, what's the best edition to get into?

>>94415887
nta but sympathetic to the illusion cause
>but I think it diminishes how weird the raksha are in-setting if their whole thing about being creatures made of dream stuff that craft terrible falsehoods can be done and outperformed by beings aligned with Creation
This isn't really a big part of Raksha, it's a small part of them...also, I feel like stepping on the toes of Raksha is actually a good thing for Lunars? Lunars are master storytellers and myth makers (to a fault, sometimes) and even though 3e Luna does not mention the Wyld, she's still associated with numerous parts of the Wyld and being reactionary to the Wyld. Lunars are perpetual outsiders who can make the world work with the Wyld rather than cleanse it like Solars can after all, makes sense they have weird similarities.

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What's the best Mage the Ascension movie?

>>94415482
> It would let you do stuff like take a broken down old house and make it look like it's inhabited and well-furnished.
There's actually a charm concept that specifically does this in Many Faced Strangers...but it upgrades the prerequisite, which literally only does an illusion that makes you think it's more expensive. Not quite the omni utility you're looking for.

>>94417099
2e Core's the best place to start if you're coming in fresh off the hype of the game. 1e has a lot of jagged edges to get caught on but makes for an extremely good experience once you're used to them, so it might be better if you're coming in from World of Darkness. If you really hate simulationist games and want a mix of narrative-driven systems without sacrificing heavy mechanics then 3e might be okay for you, but you might also want to look at Essence.

>>94417152
His Dark Materials

>>94417613
You mean Golden Compass? They only made one movie.

>>94417099
1e has the best lore 3e has the most competent but still shitty system. 2e is extremely powerfantasy though so people remember it fondly if they haven't actually had to play with it.

>>94417657
>3e has the most competent but still shitty system
Honestly that might also be 1e. 1e's problems mostly revolve around it's charms being less refined, and missing some subsystems, but the base systems that are there are entirely complete and don't really break down.

>>94417099
1e for lore
2e for more lore
Essence for actually playing this system with normal humans
3e for more lore because 2e kind of runs in a specific direction and makes Solars just the goodest boys and basically everyone else is wrong and 3e is slightly more sensible as a universe but also gets rid of things just to be not 2e.

>>94416409
Those arguments despite being pretty old, always reappear from time to time.

>>94416409
>This is like a guy who hates cats coming into a cat cafe and saying that they need to change things for his benefit.
This applies more to 3e Infernals, those arguments were used by actual Lunar players.

>>94417855
>slightly more sensible as a universe
>Autochthon didn't invent Exaltations
>Progenitive Essence
>The Flame of Exigency diminishes you, except when it doesn't
>GET kills spirits, except when it doesn't
>By the way the Wild Hunt is totally cool with Exigents
>Nonhuman Fish Exalts
>Demons have an embassy in Heaven
>Mnemon knows when and why the Immaculate Faith was created, believes in it anyway
>Everything about the Caul and how much Lunars give a shit about it

>slightly more sensible as a universe

I'll give you the Usurpation, how the Jade Prison was hidden and the treatment of Sidereals by gods in Yu-Shan but that's about it.

>>94417997
>This applies more to 3e Infernals
It's actually justified for 3e Infernals, because to continue the metaphor 3e Infernals is akin to skinning the cat and then being surprised when people complain.

>>94418029
I think it handles low level affairs and the day to day business better. The high level stuff that’s ultimately somewhat unimportant when you’re running a game but really gives weight and credence to the world and setting as a whole?

Yeah for some reason that’s where “changed to not be 2e” comes into play. It’s also why I recommend starting with 1e lore anyways. 2e makes some strange leaps and changes and 3e basically tries to pretend 2e didn’t exist and just build off 1e. It’s a fork in the road. Really, truly, 2e tried to be 1st edition 2, and 3e is also trying to be 1st edition 2 and man this is a mess. I will say, I also ultimately like more how Infernals don’t have a personal yozi sitting on their shoulder in 3e like they do in 2e. I think that better distances themselves from Abyssals and I like the lean in to them being ultimately just fundamentally broken as individuals, and thus Infernals don’t need a shoulder demon to make their lives worse. They are capable enough of being their own worst enemy.

>>94418029
>>Mnemon knows when and why the Immaculate Faith was created, believes in it anyway
This one is realistic, but not the tone.

>>94418029
>Autochthon didn't invent Exaltations
Yes, and? It being something they discovered ajd put to use makes as much sense as something they invented.
>Progenitive Essence
Solves Dragonblooded rape camps by making them not work
>The Flame of Exigency diminishes you, except when it doesn't
The only tines when it doesn't diminish you is when it outright kills you entirely
>GET kills spirits, except when it doesn't
It does, though? It make your attacks deal Agg damage to spirits and if you kill them, they're perma-dead automatically
>By the way the Wild Hunt is totally cool with Exigents
Yes it's specifically targeting the types of Exalts that pose a threat to the Realm, not just anything other than DBs and Sidereals
>Nonhuman Fish Exalts
Never a thing, they're just fish beastmen exalts, and beastman exalts have always been a thing
>Demons have an embassy in Heaven
Pretty sure that's always been a thing?
>Mnemon knows when and why the Immaculate Faith was created, believes in it anyway
Drinking your own koolaid is a thing real people do too
>Everything about the Caul and how much Lunars give a shit about it
It's a Lunar holy land that the Realm is trying to conquer, of course a bunch of Lunars would care about it, though not all of them

>>94418221
>Solves Dragonblooded rape camps by making them not work
Not really, you can just space out the pregnancies or use their mortal children.

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>>94416500
>>94416455

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>>94416500
>>94418252
Thanks for the story

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>>94416500
>>94418263

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>>94418272
>>94416455
For when you dont want help to switch out charms

>>94418221
>It being something they discovered ajd put to use makes as much sense as something they invented.
No? Given that the Primordials / Ancient Bugaboos made the world, them discovering it means someone made it, and at that point in the timeline there are very few culprits that wouldn't have access from the other side, none of them good. It just adds vagueness which is hard to fill with anything but 'oh but actually the Exaltations are sourced from the eeeeevuuuull faeeeerriiiiiess' or something equally shitty.
>Solves Dragonblooded rape camps by making them not work
Progenitive Essence both fails to solve rape camps, because you can put people in rape camps just the same either way and the only difference is how long you keep them there, and creates it's own problems, like Dragonblood reproduction being something you can cripple from afar via neomah or other magics.
>The only tines when it doesn't diminish you is when it outright kills you entirely
Or when it doesn't diminish you at all, like with that one gambling god, for no reason other than because the developers wanted to show that it was possible that it wouldn't noticeably diminish them.
>It does, though?
Many more creatures have been published with GET-proof immortality than previously were established, relative to the total number of published antagonists.
>Yes it's specifically targeting the types of Exalts that pose a threat to the Realm
Which for some reason isn't including Exigents, despite them posing a threat to the Realm if they weren't sidelined by plot armor and setting inertia.
>Never a thing
The Spoken are canon non-human fish Exalts, sadly.
>It's a Lunar holy land
Which is to say that Lunars are getting dream fuckery from it, but are contextualizing this as holy and sacred rather than an active attack for... no reason? The response to getting funny dream visitations is not usually 'oh, this is a good thing from a friend'. If they've talked to Luna about it that's not mentioned.

>>94418070
>I think it handles low level affairs and the day to day business better.
Not really, it feels like the writers personal experience boils down to "lazy around with social circle doing drugs while pretending to do some revolutionary thing", specially how it handles communities.

>3e basically tries to pretend 2e didn’t exist and just build off 1e.
3e retconed 1e more, than it claims to have retconed 2e.

Stop with this gaslighting.

> I will say, I also ultimately like more how Infernals don’t have a personal yozi sitting on their shoulder in 3e like they do in 2e.
They didn't have, they had a demon.

> I think that better distances themselves from Abyssals and I like the lean in to them being ultimately just fundamentally broken as individuals, and thus Infernals don’t need a shoulder demon to make their lives worse. They are capable enough of being their own worst enemy.
We have the previews, Infernals are green solars.
And the head demon was just a "talk with the st" merit.

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Is there any written 2E material saying what +6 dots in Attributes and Abilities are meant to represent beyond the feat of strength table? There was one small write up for high essence charms, but I can't find anything for attributes or abilities.

>>94418321
>Is there any written 2E material saying what +6 dots in Attributes and Abilities are meant to represent beyond the feat of strength table?
Beyond what it mechanically lets you accomplish, no. The only real attribute/ability description section is the core traits part of 2e Core.

Personally, I go back to the 1e Core Feats for that kind of thing.

>>94418305
>something equally shitty.
Normally 3e goes with not-shinma

>Which for some reason isn't including Exigents
Exigents are the fanfic exalted, it is just a blank check to do whatever.

>The Spoken are canon non-human fish Exalts, sadly.
I think he mistook them for the scrapped chosen of the depths.
These were reworked to be just exalts who were aquatic abhumans.

>Lunars and the caul.
Despite Lunars not really having a claim to it has a holy land, the use of hallucinogens was fairly common in older religions.

>>94418345
>Despite Lunars not really having a claim to it has a holy land
Nah, the Caul itself is apparently appearing in their dreams to give them cryptic pronouncements. This is the reason it's considered sacred to them.

>>94411880
My Tepet lunar was smacked around by a kraken that's a pet of mysterious pirates in the Inland Sea that seemingly aren't Lintha. In the third turn, he instakilled it with attribute charms and Water Dragon style.

Wish I can tell a story about my demonblood forest witch detective but the side plot he is in is still on going.

Level 1 app charm with no Prerequisite please?

>>94418366
What happens when they get there?

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>>94418380
Hah! Sounds like your lunar was tired of its shit and went "no u".
And does the detective run on alcohol insted of essence?

Whiat is the adamant caste like now?

>>94416290
2e Lunars were a huge step up from 1e Lunars who were easily the weakest type of Exalts in that edition.

>>94418537
1e Lunars feel like they were going to be Terrestrial level, but the devs changed it at the last minute.

Probably because of DBT ruining their power budget and them being a directly garou port

>>94418070
I actually dislike how 3e handles low level affairs, every village feels like it's own self-contained setting with somehow less interaction than in prior editions, a lot of details feel interchangeable, and AT8D needs to SHUT THE FUCK UP ABOUT THE FOOD and write about something more interesting like Behemoths to fight or armies to slay.

>>94418555
>DBT
>Garou
>Not just Gui Ren in werebeast drag

DBT was originally Demon Shintai from KotE on steroids and with different aesthetics. If you go looking for it, you can even find the developer talking about it, sometime between 2001 and late 2002.

>>94418768
My theory is because the writers are writing from a modern atomized perspective.

>>94418807
The devs admitted that Lunars were made to be a garou port, it is in making of exalted.

>>94418845
What they said in the making of Exalted video is that each Exalted was meant to roughly correspond to a given game from the WoD. What the mechanics for DBT clearly were, was a lift of Demon Shintai. Go and look in Kindred of the East, it's pretty clear.

>>94418534
Think of Heroes that inspire and Entertain People like Johnny Cage, Megatron, or Cesar

Also wanted some advice on this Exigent I made

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1JJkSJXFfGjTRfCixG0f9RTi54ZmD8RNv_pQYIe-zR7Q/edit?usp=sharing

>>94418901
Understand.

I didn't put my points well.
I meant that Lunars felt for two separate reasons.

1st is because they are a garou port, because of it it, in lore, it looks like there are thousands of them, and they were Terrestrial level.

2nd, like how Shen from lol became a ulti bot, DBT took away all their power budget.
Like you said, DBT was too strong.

>>94419213
As a pc or npc? If pc I suggest to start with Excellencies and Ox-Body.

If Terrestrial, I think the Foxbinder has a charm that grants access to mastery key word.

>>94419237
3rd, their charm cascades sucked because they went through different attributes, including switching between Physical, Mental and Social. And Lunars didn't have favored attributes, only favored abilities that did nothing for their charm costs.
And 1e already had the number of Lunars at about 300.

>>94419362
> And 1e already had the number of Lunars at about 300.

He’s saying that ‘horde of barbarians waiting to burn down the Realm organized into a tribal structure’ feels like a motif for a Terrestrial Exalt. I don’t really agree, but that’s his point.

>>94419362
>And 1e already had the number of Lunars at about 300.
I meant that their social dynamics felt like there were tens of thousands of them, because of stuff like claw/skull speak.

>>94419385
It was more about how they interact with each other, the logistics of territories only make sense if there were dozens to hundreds of them in a given region.

Since most types of Exalted are now covered, will they also release supplements for Gods. Dragon Kings, Mountain Folks, Ghost, etc.- Essence is already going to cover them in its supplement.
>>94419385
>>94419386
It's more a Barbarian horde of Beastmen with an especially powerful Khan leading it.

>>94419440
>Dragon Kings
I heard they will be in towers of might.

>gods, ghosts and demons.
I think they will in a single book detailing all otherworlds, "under alien skies"(?).

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>>94419462
>"under alien skies"(?)
Wrong line.

>>94419473
I don't remember what the book will be called

>>94419362
The charm costs was deliberate, it falls under "DBT took away all of their power budget".

>>94417994
Well, do the Lunar players of the current year seem satisfied with them? Their opinions seem more important than that of a guy that has never liked them.

>>94419882
A smaller pool of satisfied people is ignoring the larger pool of unsatisfied people. Really, lunars seem to be the most popular among role players. Mechanically they’re shit, but the people that want to play Lunars don’t care about optimal charm usage or powergaming they just wanna be able to turn into a snake, poison someone, then turn into a dinosaur and roar. It’s funny because I think Lunars would more or less make the best spy fullstop, because even a Sidereal is going to have more trouble and require more setup to infiltrate somewhere than a lunar just turning into a spider and crawling on the ceiling. But lore wise and in player interest most people doing Lunars don’t want to be patient clever and literate they wanna be unga bunga rockstop

>>94419882
From the discord, there's a divide between new fans who are mostly ignorant/gaslit and oldfags being 2 faced.

You can notice a certain spite in the latter.

>>94418029
didn’t the yozi have an ambassador to heaven in 2e? I remember her because there was dumb plot about her knocking herself up to flood heaven with demons or some shit

>>94419882
I think the more popular sentiment is that they're wasted potential. Their lore is such that you either accept the rather boring restrictions or basically ignore it entirely for no consequence.

Mechanically they don't really excel at anything besides turning into spiders to spy on everyone, and despite being Exalted by a Trickster Goddess they lose out in both Trickster flavor and Charm utility to Sidereals.

They also might be the Exalts to suffer the most from modern Charm design and having to just suck up taking a bunch of dogshit and boring dicetricks before they unlock something actually fun to do.

>>94419941
Well, you found the the Lunar embryo, they aren't tricksters like Sidereals, but the primal splat.

>>94419362
I know this, and also that you got the number of Lunars in 1e wrong (it was 400. 2e knocked off a hundred, 3e put them back).

>>94419657
Which fell behind as Sidereals blew the top off the power assumptions and Power Combat fucked everything up with Essence minimum dice damage.

>>94420145
>Which fell behind as Sidereals blew the top off the power assumptions and Power Combat fucked everything up with Essence minimum dice damage
It was also deliberate.

"Sidereals got the charmset they are meant to have, since those are all the charms they will get.
Contrary of Solars whose real charmset is the homebrew you make along the way."

>>94420235
Which just cycles back into "But what if my parry Charm is as good as Impeding the Flow?"

Where do you put it? Is it in your set, or not? Does the ejection of Lunars from the Cool Sidereal Martial Arts Club in the Player's Guide somehow imply that they don't have high Essence Charms?

>>94420275
Like Riot, WW/OP keeps making the same balancing mistakes.
The same homebrew expectations happened to devil tigers, and Exigents.

>Does the ejection of Lunars from the Cool Sidereal Martial Arts Club in the Player's Guide somehow imply that they don't have high Essence Charms?
It is more favoritism or writer vision.

Grabowski: "DBT is too strong, so Lunars don't get SMAs".
Borgstrom: "Sidereals can power creep Solars, since Solars can make better charms".

>>94419941
That seems like a pretty good attitude to have, honestly. From personal experience, Lunars are more common than Sidereals in games that allow all Celestials or all types of Exalted, so I think they’re probably more broadly appealing than the fate ninjas.
>>94420068
I haven’t seen this sentiment in other Exalted communities, so can you really call it “popular”?

I can’t really make any claims to mechanical mastery myself (although I don’t know if you can either), and I feel like your claim of them being out-trickstered is a very subjective thing. I think Solars can make better tricksters than either because their Larceny and social charms combine both the wide applicability of Lunar charms with the high success range of a Sidereal, but I’m certain you can play a good goofball as any of the three.

>>94419996
found it; its Marilaq A’Lam from the Yu-Shan book of 2e. I think the anon I responded to forgot there was a Malfean ambassador in that edition and thought 3e invented one.

>>94420330
Being a mythological trickster requires more than pull tricks and deceive people, there is the chicanery.

>>94420368
I can’t really address your subjective opinions beyond saying I don’t really see things that way, but I mentioned before that I don’t think direct mythological comparisons work all that well with Exalted due to how broad its influences range and how many of those influences aren’t myth. There’s also the fact that the Exalted are more like xia than they are gods/demigods.

I’d also like to go back to >>94419941’s assertion that there’s a “larger pool of dissatisfied people”. Where are they? I don’t think this thread gets enough people to form any real representative sample, so I can’t take such claims seriously.

>>94420491
>where are they
Not playing the game or buying new exalted stuff anymore

>Benefits from 3e's lore changes: Abyssals
>Neutral with 3e's lore changes: Sidereals, Lunars, Solars
>Damaged by 3e's lore changes: Dragon-Blooded
Alchemicals are likely to be neutral, Infernals are likely to be damaged. Getimians and Liminals suck.

>>94420509
I don’t think Liminals suck I just think they fulfill a niche that doesn’t fit the rest of the world. Ultimately, I think they work best as an NPC, as a player, I simply don’t see why I would want to play one. And by far they make the least sense to have multiple of in a party. They’re neat and add to the world, but not as a PC.

>>94420522
Prometheans is commonly played one-on-one.
Like mummy and demon, some people think it is hard to run multiple ones in a chronicle.

>>94420491
Even outside of mythology the trickster is notorious for their absurdism.

Also, most of exalted influences drank directly from mythology.
And the less mythological splats, "Lunars and Abyssals", are notorious for sucking.

>>94420503
I think the decline in Exalted’s player base is more due to Exalted, like Vampire the Masquerade, only thriving within a specific bubble in time. Most systems were absolutely drowning in crunch like it, the tropey wackiness was a good fit for mid/late 2000s nerd culture, and edginess was still cool. The bubble popped simply because Exalted 3e was a ultra-crunchy game in the age of 5e and PBTA, and because it has harsh things like slavery and colonialism and a lingering reputation for weird sex shit (Lilun was one of the most damaging things possible for the brand). The utter collapse of 2e’s fanbase is pretty indicative of it being a fad rather than something truly enjoyable; people like D&D 3.5 enough to play it and support it for decades, but nobody plays 2e Exalted anymore.

>>94420722

I blame it more on mismanagement, and personal-dramafags taking the reins.
Personal-dramafags did everything in their power to kick the rest of the fanbases out

>>94420694
Are you still trying to prove your subjective taste? I can respect your opinion, I just don’t think I’ll ever share it and your own internal metrics for why you think that way. I think you’re a bit outnumbered by those who like them, but I’m outnumbered by people who like Dragon-bloods. By the way, I’d argue are not very mythologically informed at all beyond a mild connection to classical elemental themes; they’re more grounded in literary fiction (those shitty Dominion of the Draka books in 1e/2e and Three Kingdoms/The Water Margin in 3e) and yet they’re the second-most popular splat after Solars.

>>94420763
I don’t think that online drama would account for 2e’s total collapse in player count.

>>94420836
It is less online drama and more "you are playing it wrong, so we will remove it as a player option".
The devs talked how the right way to end a vampire chronicle, is with all of the PCs to be gunned down by the fbi.

>>94418221
>Solves Dragonblooded rape camps by making them not work
the solution to this was the Usurpation and the mini usurpations that happened before hand. also, this doesn't '''solve''' rape camps it just gives them more guidelines. Additionally, the mechanics of progenitive essence raises lots of questions about how Dragonblooded can effectively just ruin a fuckton of DB's progenitive essence with the most miniscule hair/skin cells/nail clippings by having Neomah create Brick Babies
>Yes it's specifically targeting the types of Exalts that pose a threat to the Realm
The mental gymnastics of "Even if a Celestial is cool with us, they invariably throw out the balance of the hierarchy and create bad outcomes" paired with "Exigents can randomly just be Solar tier but uh, we'll keep an eye on them" is just sort of retarded for the Realm of all things to allow on the Blessed Isle.

>>94420836
>>94420867
Personally, I think it's the lack of errata. People have been pointing out how shit the core book is for the last ten years, and while the newer splats are mechanically sound, they're still been built upon a shitty foundation. People have burnt up a lot of goodwill and have done everything they can be reasonably expected to do (and beyond, some people have rewritten the entire core, others homebrewed entire splats years before official releases) and with most of the most popular splats behind us the fanbase is just fatigued. We may not see errata until 2023 at the earilest.

I'm mostly just salty we still don't have rules for manses.

Does anyone have the part of the PDF that talks about the descriptions of each Alchemical caste?

>>94420964
>We may not see errata until 2023 at the earilest.
Anon... we already are in 2024

>>94418070
I get that you don't like Infernals, but you really should stop saying things that are factually wrong, especially when you can just crack open the book and see that you're flat out wrong.

>>94419996
>>94420365
Nta, but IIRC the original complaint (from several threads back when it first came up) was that 3e had demons in heaven, 2e's version was a demon-blooded human kept in a house under very heavy warding because Yu-Shan very much did not want ANY demons to step foot in heaven
I don't actually mind demons being allowed in Yu-Shan personally, but I do feel like they should be way more paranoid about their movements there in 3e if it keeps that bit of lore about Yozi being able to unbind demons by possessing them

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>>94421064
>Anon... we already are in 2024
Where the fuck is the time going? Anyway, i meant 2030.

>>94420722
>(Lilun was one of the most damaging things possible for the brand).
The zenith of the franchise was post lilun, Infernals were one of the most popular splat, despite even their fans cutting out the first 2 chapters.
If anything, Exalted stopped being wacky.

>>94421080
Don't worry, people used to joke "Infernals by 2019"

>>94420722
I still see people interested in playing Exalted in the groups and larger social circles I play with, the couple of attempts that have gotten off the ground tend to die because of scheduling issues, but those that did at least get started tended to end up rejecting 3e for the reasons >>94420867 and >>94420964 listed. A janky system with no errata (and not all splats being out yet) tends to kill the interest of those unfamiliar with Exalted, while the dev's "No, you're playing it wrong, so we'll change it so you can't" tends to kill the interest of those who have heard of it

>>94420867
How is this applicable to 2e
>>94421094
https://forum.rpg.net/index.php?threads/exalted-poll-on-character-types-played.749583/

From this poll one year before 3e dropped, they appear to have been less played than 2e Abyssals, which is dire.

>>94421108
You are not accounting for the bare and obvious fact that Exalt's system is broken and shitty. It's way more complicated than it needs to be. It should have the same level of complexity as like 3.5 D&D, and instead every battle is a giant nightmare of 8 steps for every single attack.

>>94421094
It really says something about the popularity of Infernals that they were such a hit despite things like Lilun being in their book

>>94421160
>From this poll one year before 3e dropped, they appear to have been less played than 2e Abyssals, which is dire.
Given the first page links to another poll which has Infernals ranked second (tied with DBs) as people's most popular splat to play, I have my doubt as to the accuracy of that poll, or any other RPG.net poll

>>94420793
>Are you still trying to prove your subjective taste?
I think you were talking with three different anons, anon.

>>94421218
The previous poll was from 2011, had 100 less voters, and was measuring favorite Exalt type rather than characters played. This tells me that they had a very small base of enthusiasts in 2011 (in part because they actually worked unlike half the other splats), but over time fell off due to the Scroll of Errata (released in 2012) making other Exalts actually playable.

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Hatewheel (who had access to site traffic) also mentions that they were incredibly niche going off that metric. Forumites liked them, but people who post on forums are the tip of the player base iceberg and even active registered posters are outnumbered by lurkers.

>>94421347
By that logic people lost interest in Sidreals as well, not to mention the latter poll ignores Alchemicals entirely (Which were previously more popular than Abyssals)
Which was sorta my point, neither of those polls are very reliable, not the least of which is unless you want to argue the entire Exalted fanbase is ~400 people, that's way too small of a sample size to try and gage popularity

>>94421448
>Hundred times more hits
That also proves my point, if you want to go off that datapoint, we should be seeing Solars as a hundred times more popular than Infernals, not ten

>>94421448
This doesn't explain Exigents.

>>94421508
Exigents are hated because no one wants to create a fucking bespoke charmset for a one off character. 3e's major issue is homebrew. Homebrew artifacts. homebrew spirit charms. Homebrew deathlord charms because they're too fucking weak to even the weakest PCs. Also homebrew everything else because we'll only give you ideas and no rules. 3e is so ST facing it's not even funny. I don't like 2e but you can use the books and play a game without having to make 3x the size of the books in homebrew.

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>>94421160
>>94421218
>>94421347
>>94421448
>>94421460
>>94421508
Gentlemen, gentlemen, we all know the only true popularity numbers
The number of downloads in OP's link

>>94421460
Well, why I should trust your assertion that they’re super duper popular if you have nothing to back it up with?

>>94421666
Can you make a character that can beat FaFL rn please

>>94421799
I'm not the anon who made that assertion anon

>>94421681
Surprised by Alchemicals.

>>94421943
I'm not, they're a damn fun splat.
My second favorite behind Infernals

Were the Aurorals mentioned in Alchemicals?

Does anyone have that tier list of Essence castes by usefulness? I only remember Journeys and Serenity being at the top.

>>94422189
Nobody cares about the shitty nu-exalts like Hearteaters. I hope they remove all reference for them or make them antagonist only in Exalted 4E because they aren't real exalts like Alchemicals.

4e must be Solars, Dragonblooded, Lunars and Sidereals only.

>>94422487
>Implying they wouldn't remove even Solar, Lunar, and DB exalts from Exalted if they could

>>94422487
I would actually say that Hearteaters are the only good new exalt. I wish more was done with them. I like the idea of other powerful beings seeing exalts in action and making their own knockoffs, but I don't actually like Liminals and Getimians in practice, I think they're both way too one-note and cover ground other exalts already cover.

>>94420365
>>94421069
I didn't forget about Marilaq, I'm cool with there being a designated demon ambassador, I'm just not cool with fucking 3CDs being casually allowed to just stroll in and own their embassy by the beings who overthrew them.

>>94422487
It is Aurorals, they are different from Hearteaters.

>>94422497
I am pretty sure they really want to remove Solars

>>94422393
I wrote the tier lists, but I only have my old preview version saved. It's out of date, and they weren't particularly useful because they only looked at Exalt and Caste Advantages without caring about charms or modes. I threw out a text version when the full preview dropped as well. This is a rough reconstruction given what we know now:

S-Tier: Casteless, Twilight, Summer, and Azimuth.
A-Tier: All Sidereals, All Alchemicals, Daybreak, Horizon, Dusk, Day, Night, and Nadir.
B-Tier: Fire, Changing Moon, No Moon, Dawn, Zenith, Autumn, Spring
C-Tier: Air, Wood, Water, Moonshadow, Winter, Ascendant, Midnight, Janest
D-Tier: Earth, All Liminals, Eclipse, Penumbra, Full Moon

>>94422672
>All Liminals
Why did they get the short end of the stick? How would they be fixed?

>>94422672
>Eclipse in D tier
Really? They have one of the easiest Exalt milestones to hit, Penumbra aren’t much harder either, and just straight up being able to force negotiations and sanctify deals is pretty fun from a narrative standpoint. Strong too. What’s the criteria by which you’re judging them? Combat power? Narratively I’ve found Eclipse and their derivatives to be very fun and useful.

>>94422529
But it doesn’t say that. They send envoys to Verumpira.

>>94422672
Thank you anon.

Although Janest's caste advantages are clearly all useless. Fucking bonus to farming.

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>>94422890

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>>94422895
This is all for now.

>>94422890
>>94422895
>>94422898
Thank you kind anon.

>>94422890
Wait, where is chapter 2? These have chapter 1, 3, 4, and 5.

>>94422898>>94422890

>>94422895
thanks

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>>94422726
>Eclipse in D tier
It's mostly down to the assumptions we're working with, but a big part of it is that they're a social caste who don't have access to the 'cannot be ignored' power that's common among good social castes and is basically necessary to use that subsystem. Lacking that makes it very difficult to play social until E3 where you can get Fulminating Word, and after that it still means you're spending 1m per action where other castes wouldn't have to.

>What’s the criteria by which you’re judging them?
General utility in the course of play, but with combat relevance as a fundamental necessity. Importantly though, I've only judged for that list by looking at Exalt and Caste Advantages, without looking at the triggers for Exalt Milestones or splat-specific charms or modes.

>>94422715
>How would they be fixed?
They're mostly weak because of small numbers and limited effects. I believe it's because of Undying, their resurrection trick, being more highly valued by the developers than I would consider it; they've under-powered their other caste abilities to make up for it. Their charms don't fall behind anywhere near the same way compared to DBs, and I'd actually put them ahead a little.

>>94422853
>Although Janest's caste advantages are clearly all useless
The farming bonus is her most broadly effective ability. It can be made to work on a lot of common and powerful ventures with easy stunts, including sorcerous workings and crafting. The other two are very niche, though the iconic is powerful when it works.

>>94422955
They are releasing charms first and then the lore chapters this time around.

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>>94422955
I think they just wanted to get charms out ASAP

>>94422715
First, make them non-Exalts.

>>94422772
>But it doesn’t say that
It says that in 3e, try to keep up.

>>94423098
They know by now nobody outside their little echo chamber is excited about the new lore, so gameplay will be the easiest draw for outsiders.

>>94422715
>Liminals
Their real problem in Essence, and the problem they're going to have in 3e, is that they're the only terrestrial that isn't homebrew or Dragonblood, and the Dragonblood don't much like them or have reason to associate with them. It fucks them over in cross-splat play, as they don't even have the Dragonblood social advantages to let them stay relevant when personal power isn't enough. At the same time, in non-cross-splat play, there's just not enough there to have more than one person playing as one. Even a single player in Essence runs out of anything to buy with Exalt Milestones after about a year of play, two people in the same splat makes it take a corresponding fraction of the time to collectively run out of new options.

The solutions are to either print a lot more charms or to introduce something that makes specializing and over-buying within a field better, like charm trees or charm dots.

>>94423590
The relevant section in 3e Sidereals on page 85 states that Verumpira receives envoys from important demons. There is no mention of Third Circle Demons setting foot in Heaven, or there even being a embassy building for them; Verumpira hosts these envoys at his own estate.
>>94423593
Take a chill pill, my man.

>>94422487
>Lunars
and INTO the trash your opinion goes.

>>94423629
Lunars are only playable if they accept the commands of their solar all the time and without question. Any player that wishes an independent lunar deserve to fuck off from Exalted forever. Also them being capable of Shadow Circle necromancy should be retconned.

They only exist to get beaten by Sidereals. They are far more better tricksters and illusionist than lunars.

>>94423670
sorry my uncle works for onyx path and he’s going to give them solar sorcery now because I asked him

>the Guild have soulgems
>the guild have access to the magical materials (especially Jade)
>the guild have access to the finest mortal artisans

Given some plans, the Guild should be fully capable of building Alchemicals.

What would an Alchemical built by the Guild using the soul of a Guild Factor be like?

>>94423739
well does the factor have repeated heroic incarnations tied to his soul because otherwise it does fuck all

>>94423751
Well, they'll probably have at least one. You don't become a Guild factor without some level of badass business acumen.

Then they just need a few other heroic past lives over thousands of years of Creation's history.

>>94423739
>Given some plans, the Guild should be fully capable of building Alchemicals.
The next time I make an Alchemical I'm using this. Mortal innovation fueled by Autochthon's dreams seeping out from beyond the damaged Seal of Eight Divinities makes a much better reason for Alchemicals in Creation pre-breakthrough compared to old machines reactivating, and it removes the main thrust detractors have for the Guild, which is that it doesn't have the power to protect it's assets.

>What would an Alchemical built by the Guild using the soul of a Guild Factor be like?
It's probably either a prototype or a personal ascension. If it's a prototype then they're probably looking at a soul that's seen as loyal (but might not necessarily be), and if it's an ascension then they would have previously been a Hierarch or close to it, and suitably ambitious. The former's probably going to go into artisan or warrior stuff while the latter's going to be all about more economic power.

I think they'd go for some strange mix between cost-cutting and anachronistic technology. A Guild-made Alchemical is the kind of thing where I could see an entire aesthetic shift from Autochthonia's Alchemicals, maybe shifting over to articulated clockwork with cogs and wheels and chain-pulleys instead of cybernetic aztec gaslight fantasy. You could even say that they need access to personal workshops and artisan-quarters, for the purpose of vats. It's also cool because the way they're encouraged to develop will be completely different, even if there are parallels between the loyal Guild Alchemical serving the company and the loyal Autochthonian Alchemical serving the populat.

>>94423061
Cannot be ignored seems like a personal problem more of an issue with the Storyteller. Sure it does require you to invest in some social skills so people won’t ignore you naturally, but, why are you playing an Eclipse if you’re not being a social powerhouse? It’s not like “has to listen” means they have to do what you say anyways. And their passive to force negotiations with specific, mostly hostile groups who would perhaps listen but wouldn’t not attack you certainly has a similar but different role than the other socially minded derivatives. I dunno I can’t really agree. “Can’t be ignored” and “these specific groups must treat with you” are two very different things that cover different areas of approach. I would agree that one is perhaps more broadly applicable, but I would argue one is more actually powerful in turn.

>>94423739
how does the anti exalt edict remain after 600 years anyway with zero pushback

>>94424255
One of the hierarchs is a dragon blooded from Lookshy, and they employ Solars here and there.

>>94424255
Like all good rules in criminal organizations they exist to maintain the power of the ones at the top and keep the lower ranks in line. That doesn’t mean I he rule is actually adhered to, exceptions prove the rule after all.

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>>94424077
>I would agree that one is perhaps more broadly applicable, but I would argue one is more actually powerful in turn.
I believe you've been got by natural language, here. Ignoring social influence is a mechanic of the social system. If you don't like someone's social influence and don't like the options in a hard bargain you can choose to just ignore it and in return the person doing the social influence gets some bonus dice on their next roll. It's very powerful as a blunt No, and a handful of bonus dice (which count towards the dicecap) are a piddly consequence for using it. 'People can't ignore you' is another way of saying they're forced to take hard bargains.

>>94424308
To contextualize this, a people can't ignore you power in Essence is like a people can't spend Willpower to resist your social influence power in 3e. It forces people to rely on Resolve+Intimacies, Unacceptable Influence, and yes-and/yes-but compromises.

>>94424308
Why is exalted so consistently poorly written? All they need is a glossary of terms and to use Bold and/or italics to call out when a mechanic is being referenced.

>>94424339
It is known since CtD days that WW believes that any kind of logic or structures will kill your soul.

>>94424339
If it makes you feel any better I'm pretty sure this is the absolute worst case of natural language fuckery in Essence. My group didn't realize it was there until we had spent months playing.

>>94424392
If they won’t make a glossary of terms and mechanics I will. Unless there’s one already conveniently written. But if there’s not, what’s a nice fancy pdf script maker I can use to try and match the Exalted appearance?

>>94424366
>CtD
As if MtAs isn't just as incoherent.

>>94424439
In CtD, accountants are the greatest form of evil.

It is the anti-science stance of WW.

>>94424497
>accountants
Therapists. Accountants are merely banal, therapists actively try to destroy your fae soul.
And Ascension is about as anti-science, especially the older stuff before MtSC and GttT made them playable.
It's kind of telling that WW released Player's Guides for Sabbat, Fomori, Specters and Shadow Court before the Technocracy.

>>94424622
>And Ascension is about as anti-science, especially the older stuff before MtSC and GttT made them playable
It could be blamed on "fuck the man" aspect of punk, and Ascension had "right" science with 2 traditions.

>>94424255
The Guild is actually more valuable as a middle man than anything. It allows normally hostile powers to trade.

>>94424680
Something I found funny is that in one of the books there's a thing where they talk about a world where the Sons of Ether paradigm won. Unsurprisingly, the Virtual Adepts were doing alright, but the interesting part is so are Akashics, presumably do to the concept of orgone energy.

>>94425224
Yeah, it being a middle man propped up by numerous competing powers as a consequence rather than le out-thinking exalts is a stronger vision of the Guild.

>>94395462
Part of the issue for making such rules is that you ask what they can be used for in this sense, in that the player themselves would be locked to a single city.

I thought about making them in HR. As at least via something like Lost Universe it's easy to have a ship take part in things as it's mobile.

>>94425307
I still don’t think it remotely makes sense. This is a setting where superhuman bureaucracy is a major power. By all logic any business enterprise not run by Hermes Conrad are going to be put out of business by Hermes Conrad.

>>94422890
>>94422895
>>94422898
Thank you very much!

>>94416920
I'm here. I just left for a bit due to personal reasons. I'm also on a list for carpel surgery

>>94416035
I've made several before.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1qA52CN4tbGbGS74qwL4LQiXE5f5lHCkk2C7dccIHF98/edit
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EfDv6Oes6yttxIQ7uLK70-CsHudesbPoUMGBl-ZNM94/edit

I wouldn't call them original by any stretch, but the monster blocks I made in manual 2 have been a godsend for making my own NPC's.

>>94424308
I'd honestly rather it take a mote too or dramatically increase the dice the opponent gets, or some other sort of narrative advantage.

WP is legacy and more annoying than not, but damn ignoring something not even for 1WP really sucks.

>>94425527
You still want rules for things that you are intended to interact with. Maybe X workers are faster doesn't need a mechanical framework but it should have a result of some kind. The logistics of a metropolis are hard to understand because they don't have anything associated with them. If they make an attack what do they look like what are their limitations and a bunch of other factors that matter near play or left to the ST. Again.