>listen here mavericks, outcasts, anarchists, and rebels against the powers that be, we have a strict code of conduct as punks™ so here's an edict from the powers that be
>>94414941>Thinks punks doesn't have codes of conductI bet you think skinheads are a Nazi thing too.
Rule 00 of being OPBe a huge faggot
>oh boy, my kickstarter package finally arrived! time to crack open "Orc-Slaying Heroes, The Tabletop RPG where you Slay Orcs" and see what the hype is about>>wow, what the fuck? you HAVE to slay orcs?
>>94415054retard
>>94414941Not that guy, but by and large most cyberpunk protagonists don't hate the corps. They're mostly annoyed that they get in the way of their highly illegal missions, but they also rely on them for employment.Like, most aren't rebels, they're freelancers looking to get rich.
>>94415054I'm of the opinion that a roleplaying game ought to provide a rules system and (possibly) a setting, but not a specific faction within that setting.And yes, I am still annoyed that the FFG Star Wars system never released a module intended for playing as the Imperials.
>>94414941
>>94415262We can, and there's nothing you can do about it. We have all the power. If you oppose us, you'll be pushed out of society and killed :)
>>94415271Not to stray too far into /pol/ territory, but you may want to reassess that viewpoint in two months.
>>94415262But the dominant culture is currently the liberals. The counter-culture is being a dapper white supremacist who opposes the woke movement.Don't believe me? What gets you in more trouble, "Fuck Christanity" or "Fuck Islam?"Can you define what a woman is?
>>94415287Nope, we own all western civilizations, and have for the last three centuries :)
>>94415294>Can you define what a woman is?A miserable little pile of secrets without reason or accountability.
>>94415374That's a man, baby.
>>94415391cope
>>94415374Die, monster! You don't belong in this society!
Obedience to lawful authority is the foundation of manly character :)
>>94415054people are saying you're retardedbut noyou are absolutely correct.
>>94415262see this version i have>>94415294I like youyou are straightforward.
>>94415401wrongvery wrongthe willingness to sufffer to find triumph is.
>>94415054>not playing a grizzled street cop that really hates street punks and is funding his retirement and lowering his paperwork by mercing street gangs and stealing their stash, or rabbing some corp and blaming it on the street gangs he wants to rob
>>94415528No :)
>>94415401I thought manly character is about being an opportunist.Can't I play a cold, lethal killer who works for the corpos because they pay the best?
>>94414941Doesn't that pic basically hurt the whole aspect of roleplaying by taking away an option or choice of roleplaying?
>>94415536>time for session 1 of Orc Slaying Heroes>my character actually doesn't hate orcs, he hates humans. but he's slaying orcs for now just for money because he's a grizzled mercenary type characterisn't that just a boilerplate edgy backstory?
>leftists convinced dumber leftists to name themselves after a word that means "prison bitch"you can convince leftists to do anything, literally anything.
>>94415548>found the glowie/bot
>>94415769>t. The dumb one here
>>94415819>getting this triggered at the truthclassic leftist retard
>>94415054kek
>>94415824404 truth or brains not found.
>>94415656If you want roleplaying, you get an RPG, not the faux-contrarian schlock from the OP pic.
>>94415294>But the dominant culture is currently the liberalsThat's the point being made in the image, you illiterate fuck. Your lack of reading comprehension actually makes me angry.
>>94414941>more style over substance nonsense that's just full of random tablesmore of an artbook than a game
>>94415852404 weener not foundseething low iq leftard
>>94414941This hypocrisy is present in their other baby, too.
>>94415262>>94415520The most punk thing is insulting six year olds with leukemia and saying rape is based actually because major corporations think that's bad PR for some reason.
>>94415944Yes you have low IQ and a tiny penis.
>>94414941This rule is fair and not even woke. Even Nazi punks would abide by this rule 0.
>>94416039Is rape not based?It's fun for at least one partyThe most popular woman's novel was about bondage rape
>>94415349Wtf punk culture was responsible for slavery and colonialism?! Apologize right now punkbros.
>>94416039You’re describing GG allin, the god of punks THOUGH. He would say child rape is based and make songs abojr it because it was transgressive and insulted the sensibilities of socieity… which is punkNow those views are acceptable and pedaled by the media, the only real way to transgress now is to be a virulent racist.
>>94414941>>94415054Neuromancer invented cyberpunk and the protagonist there had no ideology beyond setting himself up for life and feeding his addictions.
>>94415699>grizzled merc hates being thrown into the orc-war meatgrinder>frags officers, allows orc raids to happen so he can raid the raiders, works his way up the chain of command so he can rob his own army's paymaster and retire in relative wealth in Gnomish Switzerland after he finishes his caper
>>94416078You tell him, son! Fight the power! Pic.I can't tell if y'all are faggots or retarded at this point. The tendency towards power is ultimately responsible for unpleasant fluctuations. It leads directly to the present, and people are motivated by unpleasant flux to seek variation as a solution. Yet so many hail the cause of flux as a solution that irony becomes a form of stupidity. The incumbent party, as indicated by the pic, is shit taste at the least. I predict petty witch-hunts and unveiled self-serving justifications. From the Reds? >Bush_Cheney_Sith.pngGee, who could see that coming?
>>94416132that's the kind of thing players THINK will happen but then they just end up calling every NPC a fuckface for no reason and drive the campaign into corners
>>94416141Take your meds and stop having chud derangement syndrome pls, your family is worried about you. Btw you don’t look smart by typing as long windily and as obtusely as possible, despite what reading post modern philosophers (hearing about them on discord) may have lead you to believe.
>>94416143that's the dm's fault
>>94416141Have sex, Incel.
>>94416168the players are 80% responsible for how any campaign goes
>>94414941>my wash on miniature is drying so I have time to write here.The game is Cy-Borg and seems to be a Cyberpunk take on Mork Borg.The nature of the game is to rebel against authority and the dystopian capitalist system.For better or worse it seems that the designers of the game that they sell instead of say giving it away for free because selling it technically makes them part of the capitalist system are very open about being against police, police, authority and a capitalist system. In the universe that Cy-Borg is probably set in I guess there are reasons for why one would be a rebel like that, but I feel that rule #00 kind of prevents the concept of entering the police force with the objective of rooting out corruption and fixing it even if one has to play dirty to do it. In the real world the nature of punk is opposing the dominant establishment. So if the dominant establishment is conservative than being a leftist is punk. If the establishment leans left wing then being conservative is punk if the nature of punk is opposition to the dominant establishment and its beliefs. I think it boils down to one's geographic location. What I'm trying to politely say is that in the west these days being a Nazi or GG Allen incarnate or a hybrid of both is anti establishment and therefore punk. Which I think is unfortunate, but it is what it is if one really gets into the nitty gritty of the "rules" the punks have set out for themselves.
>>94416232the dm is 100% responsible, especially if he fails to gatekeep problem players>>94416285all the 'Borg games are set in the midst of a world-ending cataclysm that you roll for at the start of a campaignworld ending as in grey goo or someone is about the simulation off
>>94414941>here's an edict from the powers that be: you cannot side with the powers that beo.k. retard. You don't even want to talk about capitalism, you're just bringing up capitalism because you want to pivot towards social issues, you are a well-trained capitalist tool.
>>94416345>the dm is 100% responsible, especially if he fails to gatekeep problem playersisn't that a great argument for why OP's rule is a good rule? >wow, I'm not onboard with [premise of campaign]. I will not be playing
>>94415899No it isn't, retard. If it was, it would say you have to join the police to be punk.
>>94416499Running a cyberpunk game for a bunch of unapologetic ideologically-motivated capitalist bootlickers would actually be kind of based.If the rules told you not to do that, and that hurt your feelings so you came to /tg/ to cry about it, that's not so based.
>>94416041this retard thinks culture is determined by whatever retard happens to be sitting in an office for four years lol
>>94416048you are a cuck
>>94416548No u and your small dick.
>>94414941It's a game about punks, right? Punk as a sub-culture is founded around anti-authoritarianism and anti-corporatism. You're playing a game about punks, so obviously you shouldn't be loyal to...wait, "cannot have sympathy for..."? "...forced to do missions for them or their minions. But make no mistake - they are the enemy" The "they" being the minions as well? The entire fucking movement was based around having sympathy for the drones trapped by authoritarian rule and using violence against systems, not individuals, to create a counter-narrative for the advocacy of an alternative lifestyle previously thought non-existent. Honestly it sounds like the authors aren't writing about punks, but radical anarchist blocs that get executed after serving their purpose during communist revolutions.
>>94416598knowing nothing about the system, I want to believe the rule is a tightly-bound Paranoia-style payload of irony>ATTENTION DRONES: REMEMBER TO ALWAYS FIGHT THE POWER. DO NOT DISOBEY THIS RULE
>>94416598>It's a game about punks, right?>The entire fucking (punk) movement was based around having sympathy for the drones trapped by authoritarian rulelol, capitalists are hilarious
>>94416611>I hate Capitalism so I want to beat and rob uh...office drones I guess?
>>94416607It's a paradox if you view the rulebook as "the power", but that's a bit too meta/postmodern even for me, there's no internal contradiction in writing a game that's about fighting the power.
>>94416598>Punk as a sub-culture is founded around buying tshirts, drinking beer, fucking girls and returning to the suburbs to become your dad
>>94416617Hating the system and sympathizing with the drones is what liberals do, it isn't what punks did, you are being dishonest on purpose because you think that the definition of "punk" is shaky enough to cover you.
>>94416629>it isn't what punks didPunks didn't actually do anything. Their most notable accomplishment is getting wiped out by the Stasi. It's a legacy of ugly clothes and shit music.
>>94416629>fuck capitalists>kill their drones>posted from my iphone/laptop/pc I bought from a big-box store>using internet from a telecomm company I pay for>using a site which runs ads for revenue>talking about a game which people buyomg anon, you're so cool and counter-cultureyou are the REAL cyber punk
>>94416646NTA but I don't think you know what you're talking about. you're just conflating punks with suburban liberals; they're not the same
>>94414941The real mavericks are the people who get games in, drama free, with painted minis where applicable, with people eith different viewpoints while still having fun.The hobby is 49% aspiration and 49% perspiration for the 2% where it all comes together
>>94416657Are you suggesting punks don't own computers or pay for wi-fi?
>>94416629>it isn't what punks did>check politically motivated acts of murder or terror by punks>punks are always the targets>throwing bottles and punching cops are about as extreme as it getsWhat exactly DID they do?
>>94416644Weak agree. I think it's fair to define "punk" in a lot of different ways, but they surely are not defined by sympathy, anon is a stupid liar. >>94416646Capitalists didn't invent market economies, retard. Internet rightoids have suddenly realized that they're living in a capitalist dystopia (of their own creation), and they need someone to blame, so they blame liberals. That's the only reason why this thread exists. Anon saw a screenshot of a game designer saying something unkind about capitalism so now he needs to complain about liberals on /tg/.
>>94416644>the only country the punk subculture was basically completely wiped out in was communistKek
>>94416691>not defined by sympathy>defines them in the second sentence>Capitalists didn't invent market economies, retard.Oh, I'm sorry, anon. I didn't realise the legally enforced corporate monopolies you take part in were traditional elements of a free and open market economy. So, could you actually explain what punk is?
>>94416699In a communist country they use secret police to keep you under surveillance and arrest you if they think you're too subversive.In capitalist countries they just realized punks were minor nuisances throwing beer bottles at cops they could make a shit ton of money off of by selling them ugly clothes and signing record deals with punk bands.You decide which was more effective.
>>94414988Fat>>94415262>>94415271>>94415294>>94415520WHO CARESPUNK IS GAY BOOMER SHITFUCK OFF BACK TO POL
>>94416712Okay, so you're just accusing me of not being Amish, you got me. I thought you were implying that capitalism had value. There's nothing wrong with paying money for a game, market economies aren't a bad thing, allowing rich people to get and keep all of the money is a bad thing. "Real punks" lived on the street and did drugs because they ran away from home, then suburban kids tried to wear their clothes as a way of taking their power, because they felt trapped (which they were) and they were enamoured with rebellion. And from there it came to mean a wide range of things to a wide range of people, it's one of those words that people will argue about for hours without saying anything. I think it's fair to define "punk" in a lot of different ways, but they surely are not defined by sympathy.
>>94416589>anarchists way before
>>94414941I'm just not going to listen to this gay shit, I'll do what I want.
>>94416106Neuromancer may have been the first well known cyberpunk novel but it absolutely didn't invent the genre or even coin the term. There was an entire group of authors all writing cyberpunk fiction by that point.
>>94416784>kill the most pro-Serbian reformer in the Austrian Empire>plunge Europe into the most bloody war in history that sets the stage for another even worse conceptHe was both retarded and a loser. He and all of his compatriots were remembered as friendless and unpopular weirdos by everyone who was asked about them.
Why are you faggots bickering about what real life punks may or may not have believed in or achieved when the game is about cyberpunks?The rule is retarded for at least two reasons: firstly it's completely meaningless, in the same way that, "don't play this game wearing a hat" would be; it makes no sense as a game rule. Secondly it badly misrepresents the genre the game is supposedly about, which includes plenty of characters who are comfortable or friendly with cops and corps.
The most unrealistic part about Cyberpunk is not the cybernetics, but the idea of punks actually going out and fighting the system instead of just doing a bunch of drugs and releasing an album.
>>94416809Because there's a lot of kool-aid drinkers ITT that need to defend this nonsense in order to bash the fash. People like that along with the authors of this slop are so irritating.
>>94416835It’s an extremely retarded and preachy rule but getting upset about it is equally retarded. Anyone who actually bothers to play games will either ignore rules or invent new ones to match their playgroup’s preferences.
Cyberpunk wasn't even about punks in the current cultural sense. Punks were street trash, criminals. The genre is high tech lowlife otherwise phrased as "the street finds its own use for things (technology.)" Stories weren't about fighting the Man, they were about using whatever you could find to get an edge and survive. Molly just wanted to get paid, Case just wanted to punch deck again, Johnny just wanted to get the hot data out of his head before the Yakuza cut it off.
>>94416809>it makes no sense as a game rule.You may prefer to read it as a statement of intent, so that a potential reader or player knows what kind of story the rules are attempting to enable, though the truth is that such statements are usually presented as rules (for instance, when the rulebook tells you to run a party of 4 players, that doesn't mean that the designer thinks he should get to decide how many friends you have, it's just because the game was designed with certain assumptions and you might need to change or add things if you ignore those assumptions).
>>94416841It's not immune to mockery
>>94415246I generally agree with this philosophy on game design but on a personal note I have zero idea why anyone would want to play as the Star Wars Empire. They're basically a collection of bad policies. There's a dozen space empires I'd much rather play as, ones that actually have the upswings of that kind of government.
>>94416844It is presented as a rule. I have never seen "4 players" presented as a rule.As a "statement of intent" it is mere posturing nonsense. Opening your game with posturing nonsense presented as a game rule does not speak well to your game design skills, or even interests.
>>94416843This is really at the heart of the issue, cyberpunk means "high tech low life", it doesn't mean that you WANT to fight the power and it certainly doesn't mean that you are biased against the power, given the choice you'd rather be the power or at least work for the power. Since the 80s, the word "punk" has taken on all these sparkly connotations of heroic defiance and conscientious objection, which are nebulous and frankly fake.
>>94416841I can see how some may be bothered by it. If I paid money for the book and the first thing you want to tell me is how characters should behave and what they should think, when the whole point of RPGs is that you can do whatever you want, it's not a good start. Yes, I can ignore the preaching, but why should I pay money for a book to then ignore what it says? There are other options for cyberpunk games that don't have that.
>>94416817You must have forgotten about the time David Vanian upended the English stock market by manipulating the price of Dr. Martins leading to the revolution in 1982.
>>94416962>I can ignore the preaching, but why should I pay money for a book to then ignore what it saysThe real cyberpunk thing to do is pirate it in the first place.
>>94416947>>94416962I guess I should probably concede that some ideologues just use game design as a platform, they really do think it's their job to impose their morality onto their players, regardless of what's best for the game. I'm sorry if I've made it sound like that doesn't happen, it does happen and it's stupid.But I still think you're looking at this all wrong. Some TTRPGs try to model everything, if you like them then more power to you, but I think they're shit. I think that all of the good ones are designed to serve a very specific play experience, and yes, it is the rulebook's job to tell you what that experience is. And the forward is the best place to put it, that's the part that you're supposed to read before you buy the book. Yes you can use TTRPGs to do anything, but that doesn't mean that every rulebook should try to do everything, the ones that try to do everything are bad.
>>94416987But then why wouldn't I pirate another game and skip all that? It's a game that opens up with preaching, and has not so great rules, so what's left? Cyberpunk 2020 is hardly hard to play, and manages to have fluff and crunch at a fraction of what many modern core manuals' page count.>tfw the publishers for the localized version of cyberpunk 2020 at the time actually told you that THEIR corporation allowed you to photocopy some pages out of the bookYou can never win against corpos.
>>94417016>But then why wouldn't I pirate another game and skip all that?Well gee, anon. Maybe because that's not what you fucking asked.
>>94417004I can sort of agree with some of that, but you don't frame the premise of the game as the first rule that "YOU MUST FOLLOW OR ELSE", you write fluff and create a setting that naturally makes the player say "yeah, fuck that". In LOTR you don't see people complaining if you can't play a wizard or a ring wraith, because it's clear to anyone that knows anything about the setting that you're not supposed to.
>>94417004I think you're looking at it wrong. The statement there is explicitly "game design as a platform", not anything about the limits of what the rules can comfortably achieve. How could it possibly be, given that it's a limitation on what your characters are supposed to think and feel rather than actually do?
>>94417025>the first rule that "YOU MUST FOLLOW OR ELSE"It's presented as the "single rule" that you are not "encouraged" to break. If I were writing an Asterix RPG I would probably "encourage" the player to not side with the Romans. Not because I hate Romans personally but because Romans are assumed to be the badguys. The game would likely contain scenes, adventures or political scenarios that simply become too easy or too simple if the PCs are willing to side with the Romans. If I were writing a game with multiple balanced factions and the PCs were welcome to side with any faction then I would do things completely differently. >In LOTR you don't see people complaining if you can't play a wizard or a ring wraithI have. And I currently see someone complaining that you can't play Imperials in a Star Wars RPG which is almost as silly as that. Again, some of this is legitimate differences in taste, because some people want a game that can do anything (I don't). Personally I think the best version of a cyberpunk game is the one that rewards you for earning the favor of a corporate sponsor. If you choose not to, that should be hard mode, and the option to sell out should be hanging over you at all times. But I can see why some people would see it differently and I think it's better for them to just say so in the forward.
>>94417030Lots of games place limits on what the characters are supposed to think and feel, any game that asks you to play as a nonhuman does this, any game that expects you to take a certain side in a conflict does this, any game where the PCs are defined by a shared life experience does this. If you don't want to please the master then you shouldn't play Maid, I'm not saying that because I disapprove of the desire to please a master, I'm saying it because Maid is a specific game about a specific situation.
>>94417058To the extent that they're trying to capture a particular genre or help you play into the game's structure. Maid won't work if you don't care about the master, because its mechanics are designed around doing that. A zombie survival game won't work if you want to befriend the zombies because the genre doesn't really work that way (with some sort-of exceptions like Shaun of the Dead).I don't believe for a second that the rest of the rules can't function properly with a character that is sympathetic to corps or cops. Nor is that part of the cyberpunk genre.
>>94417054The wording is vague enough that you can read it in different ways depending on your values, and let's face it, even your mood. Which may or may not have been their intent. The thing is that it's silly to present capitalism as an enemy when most cyberpunks do it for the money after a job, because they want a nice house in a nice neighbourhood and to stop eating fucking kibble.>asterixNot really familiar with the setting, but if there were other factions besides the gauls and romans, it would be interesting. You could have all sorts of shenanigans around by allowing others to be on the level of the MCs, but yeah, I see your point.>Imperials in a Star Wars RPGI can sort of see it, it's a way to add nuance, same reasoning behind wanting to play a cop or a corpo in cyberpunk, really. Mooks in SW are rarely characterized so there's a niche if you want to fill it.>the best version of a cyberpunk game is the one that rewards you for earning the favor of a corporate sponsorMaybe not always the best, but yes. It's just that people default to the classic "you are not useful to me anymore AND THAT MEANS I WILL NOW ACTIVELY TRY TO KILL YOU OPENLY" rather than assume a professional handling of matters and paying you for a job well done, let's keep in contact, maybe not.It's sort of hinted because you usually see the ones that go out of their way to make it big get taken down by crabs or the ones higher up, but who says you can't play a small time adam smasher and end up paid to handle security?
>>94417075>>94417078For what it's worth, I think it would be fun to play as Imperials, but I am firmly convinced that a good game about playing rebels would have different rules from a good game about playing imperials. In particular, if I were running a game about life in the empire I would want to make sure that the bureaucracy had a major presence in the game rules. They should rely on it for basic functions and equipment but they should also feel like it's working against them sometimes. Rebels should get to focus on the problem of the week, that's what their experience is like. Imperials should feel like the problem-of-the-week is a rock and the imperial bureaucracy/logistics/supply-chain is a hard place, either one of which might kill them, that's what the imperial experience is like. You could write a game that tried to do both, but I wouldn't, it goes back to what I said earlier about how generalist games are bad.
>>94417118Okay, but the rule there isn't, "You can't play as a middle manager trying to run missions on a tight budget while appeasing your six different bosses and complying with the HR policy of the week". There doesn't need to be a rule against that because there just aren't rules to support doing it. OSR "gold for XP" games don't need rules to tell you your character wants money, because the mechanics do that already.Playing Imperials in SW might be viable, but it's deliberately cutting against how the franchise works. "Imperials must be the enemy" makes some sense for a normal SW game. But that's not true of cyberpunk corps, because "corporations are always the enemy" is not how the genre works at all.It's genre illiterate preachy bullshit, not advice on how to ensure the rules work as intended.
>>94417174It does not make any sense, and is the exact same preachy bullshit. Despite what they may try to brainwash you into believing, rebfags are not the default or healthy state of SW fans.
>>94417004The rule as its written just does a bad job of what you're talking about though.Let's just assume that the game as designed would fall apart if the players were remotely sympathetic to cops/corporate characters and didn't mind taking missions for them. Instead of framing this as a rule of "PCs must treat corpos as enemies no matter what", it simply needs to be a statement that the game was designed for the PCs to be free agents who aren't working too closely with authorities or corporations, and that things might get too easy for them if they've got such a powerful support network. Then you just leave it up to the GM if he wants to try and tweak the game into something that has the PCs as undercover cops or corporate agents or whatever.It's not like every fantasy RPG needs to open with>VERY IMPORTANT IMMUTABLE RULE: YOU CANNOT PLAY AS A DRAGONBecause fuck's sake, even if you didn't design your game around the playable monsters, it's a retarded way to try and communicate that it's not an intended style of play.
>>94417174>There doesn't need to be a rule against that because there just aren't rules to support doing it.A game that supports playing as a corporate bootlicker might have different rules from a game that does not support playing as a corporate bootlicker. And, if that is the case, then the designer has a moral responsibility to say so up front. I don't know how to make this any more clear.
>>94416804He was a Serb, what did you expect?
>>94417378Even worse, he was a Bosnian Serb.
>>94416843This, cyberpunk protagonists don't care about authority other than how it gets in the way of a payday. Blacks hate the police because the police stop them from committing crimes, not because of some greater theory of mind.
>>94416754*Gay Gen-X shit
>>94416804Sometimes things need to get worse before they can get better.
>>94415294>dapper white supremacistLike Gavin Newsom?
>>94417493I think he means that article about Richard Spencer
>>94415054>no one in the history of crime has ever been a sellout, a snitch, a betrayer, or an undercover cop
>>94417251>if that is the case, then the designer has a moral responsibility to say so up frontThat's a completely ridiculous thing to suggest. Do they also have a moral responsibility to point out that it isn't a medieval agriculture simulator? Are they obliged to include a rule that you are forbidden from playing a Roman Centurion?Besides which that's not what the statement in question says. At all.
>>94416843Yeah basically none of the famous Cyberpunk cornerstones have the protagonists achieve anything of note and their only conflicts with The Man maybe only happen as part of a climax last stand where they are gunned down by corpos or slink away into the alleys to lick their wounds, realizing nothing changed in the end.
>>94417733That's not remotely true. Neuromancer has Case win, and doesn't appear in the sequels because he's rich and lives comfortably with his wife and kids. He also completely alters the fabric of cyberspace. And he escapes being nabbed by The Man with Neuromancer's help.
>>94417564When you misinterpret a game, and you use it for something that the designer didn't intend and thus you have a bad time, that's a bad thing. Game designers have a moral responsibility to prevent that sort of thing if possible. As a game designer, other people are trusting you with their attention, you have a moral responsibility to avoid wasting their attention if possible. This may indeed require you to say something about how your game isn't intended as a simulator for day-to-day survival (if you think that your game is a bad agriculture simulator but might be mistaken for an agriculture simulator). If a game is set in a cyberpunk setting, it's very easy to see why someone might think that it's a good game for playing corporate tools (especially since that's what a "cyberpunk" was in the original sense), and if your game doesn't model that sort of experience then you have a moral obligation to say so. I don't know how to make this any more clear.
>>94417769NTA, you're totally right to say that Case achieved something of note, but it wasn't something that mattered to him personally and in the end he just went back to his old life. Neuromancer was a superpowered ai designed by one of the richest people who ever lived. Case basically got abducted by that a.i. and surgically modified against his will (in order to remove his addiction to stimulants). So he helped that ai take over the planet, made a boatload of money, and used that money to pay for further brain surgery so that he could go back to being addicted to stimulants.
>>94417799>he just went back to his old lifeMolly did. Case did not. This is explicitly mentioned in one of the sequels.Count Zero ends with Bobby getting contacts to become a real hacker like he wanted, and he gets a girl. The corps get fuck all, and the Johnson gets blown up.
>>94417782it's cy-borgrules lite and decided by tables. Mork Borg with guns, nano tech and hacking replacing magic and low GM prep as even missions are randomly generated on the fly. Characters are highly expendable and the combat system is complete shit.Nothing about the game requires the rule 0.
>>94416843Amusingly enough, Snow Crash has Hiro Protagonist go legit. He starts selling antivirus software, after a final swords-and-motorbike duel with Raven.
>>94416041Jesus, you're a dumb fuck and you deserve everything you get, good & hard. Keep on sneedin', pseud.
>>94416809>it badly misrepresents the genre the game is supposedly about, which includes plenty of characters who are comfortable or friendly with cops and corps.Neuronancer and the Sprawl trilogy is literally the seminal work of cyberpunk fiction, and it's protagonists are a schizo ex-military guy being manipulated by an advanced artificial intelligence trying to ascend to godhood, a degenerate hacker convinced to do the job because he needs a new set of organs to ruin with hard drugs and alcohol, a razorgirl mercenary, and in the final act a genetically engineered ninja bodyguard/assassin who is utterly loyal to the cloned heiress of a merged megacorp running a space station on the moon (sound familiar?)the rule is dumb because somebody completely insulated from culture war nonsense, who's fresh off reading Neuronancer, would open this book up and he told "Uh, no, sorry, you're not allowed to play as Lady 3Jane, or Armitage, and actually not even Case or Molly Millions since they gladly took the ginormous payout from the gig and weren't really reluctant about it at all"In Count Zero, one protagonist starts off as an amateur hacker and ends up being the boyfriend and bodyguard to a secondary protagonist (who started the book being implanted with experimental biotech letting her access cyberspace directly with her brain) who has literally become a famous idol/simstim star; far from "no corporate sympathies" they literally get a happily ever after chilling in a beach as wealthy celebrities after stopping the antagonist's plan to take over the world. Every cyberpunk character doesn't and shouldn't need to be some active moral crusader; even low-life scumbags, opportunist assholes, and naive hopefuls have a place, the whole point of a crushing cyberpunk dystopia is that it doesn't matter what you believe, you're still gonna be crushed under the chrome-plated weight unless you do something to escape.
>>94416041You lost. :)
>>94414941I wouldn't align myself with those things either, but why would they try to forbid that? You shouldn't make a character with a complicated background, or even a somewhat villainous character... in an RPG?Why shouldn't someone play as a corpodrone that went a little too deep into the dark side? Maybe they keep their mindset, maybe they change, who knows. It's FUN.
>>94416041>OP is a gigantic cock-targeting vortex filled with turbulent cavitating streams of pearly man goo, thirstily gravitating through the void in search of a cure for "xir's" ravenous galactic-level cocklust. Did I get your pronoun right, buddy? Nigga, you have the gay condition.This is now pasta.
>>94418522To be fair, it's definitely not saying "Don't take money from the corpos", it's saying "don't simp for the corpos" and none of those characters did.You're still right though.
>>94417799>NTA, you're totally right to say that Case achieved something of noteCase didn't do shit for 95% of the novel if I remember rightly, it was all the AI doing everything while he was a passive spectator. Biggest flaw with Neuromancer.
>>94419194He was just a regular guy
>>94419188>none of those characters did.Angie became a famous celebrity and idol and Bobby became her boyfriend/hacker/bodyguard, you don't be a simstim celebrity without some degree of corporate involvement, even lots of Cyberpunk Rockerboys have industry connections or record deals and shit.Hideo is literally a bodyguard to a corporate heiress and is the origin of the entire genetically engineered cyberpunk ninja archetype. Remember the rule doesn't just say you can't simp for corpos, it says "YOU CANNOT BE LOYAL TO OR HAVE SYMPATHY FOR THE COPS, THE CORPOS, OR THE CAPITALISTIC SYSTEM" which disqualifies literally all of them. Case doesn't simp for corpos but he sure as shit loves capitalism and money. Molly Millions is perfectly willing and eager to kill people for money, she's not "reluctantly forced to do missions for them [corpos, cops, capitalism] or their minions, she's a goddamn razorgirl hitman.A cyberpunk game that says "Players should generally not begin as permanent employees or executives of a megacorp in order to facilitate the intended gameplay experience" would not be controversial, the same way a typical fantasy adventure game saying "PCs generally should not start as landed nobility or royalty to facilitate adventure" is a perfectly fine guideline. That's not why people make fun of the Cy-borg rule, because it goes way further than merely "don't be a corporate slave drinking the kool-aid", it's actually hilariously restrictive if you think about it for even a few minutes. No sympathy for capitalism? Seriously?
>>94419188It says - very explicitly - to regard the corps and cops as the enemy. None of those characters did.
>>94416106Neuromancer also exclusively portrays the wealthy as inhuman psychopaths. Licking the boot won't get you anything. If the rich elites and corpos wanted anything you have, they'd have already killed you and taken it.
>>94414941what a poser guy trying to tell you a punk follows rules like that. nope now im gonna be a punk that loves certain corpations and thats fine because fuck you I wont do what you tell me to do.poser game wrote by a poser punk
>>94419257Case isn't loyal to capitalism, you idiot. He's loyal to himself and literally no one and nothing else. If he could get blitzed out of his mind in a comfortable room for the rest of his life by nominally subscribing to any ideology, he would do it in a heartbeat and never look back.
>>94419291Lady 3Jane was fairly reasonable all things considered. Maybe living in space gives you a better perspective.
>>94419318it's not just loyal, it says "or have sympathies for the capitalist system"case would absolutely abhor a system where he can't be a degenerate hacker making lots of money at the expense of others with his skills, "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" would make him fucking puke in disgust
>>94419291No, none of that is in there. It barely depicts corporations at all, and repeatedly points out that the Tessier-Ashpools are distinct due to being effectively nobility instead. Also personal patronage from impressing someone important is an explicit part of the plan without which they wouldn't have had access.
>>94419324Lady 3Jane got involved with the plot because she was bored and killed her dad because it was slightly more interesting than not killing her dad. She appears reasonable only because no one ever told her crashing Freeside into the Earth might be a stimulating diversion from eternal boredom.
>>94419257Hido and the heiress is fair, sorry, you did mention those characters but we don't meet them until the end so I wasn't thinking of them as part of "the party".Case doesn't sympathize with capitalism, he just loves having enough money to buy drugs. If he could have grown up in a different system then he probably would have but this is his life so he grabs it by the throat. And if he could sell out capitalism for a quick fix then he definitely would. I mean, he sort of did, he let the ai-god lobotomize Turing and take over the internet/world because that was his job, though that's hard to say because "capitalism" is less of a coherent system in Neuromancer (Neuromancer emphasizes the idea of cryptocracy and of corporations becoming more entangled with governments). In some sense it's fair to describe hustlers as capitalists but you should remember that hustlers predate capitalism by thousands of years.
>>94419318>blitzed out of his mind in a comfortable roomHe was effectively suicidal with his degenerated nervous system keeping him out of cyberspace. No, he did not want to sit quietly getting blitzed.
>>94419214He was also the protagonist and a capable hacker so should have had a more active role
>>94419350>make every excuse for why something isn't REAL captialism to explain how the retarded pretentious BJORKBJORG rule 00 is totally geniusfor what purpose
>>94419402Real capitalism has never been tried.
>>94419398IDK sometimes having the regular guy main character can be an interesting protagonist perspective. It does rely on the story being propped up by the other CUHRAZY supporting characters though.
>>94419421Rick hits a helicopter with a boat and flips off the pilot before blowing it the fuck up before burning one down with some pirates. Dude was already as insane as everyone else in the crew; he just needed to be freed from the shackles of a desk to show it.
>>94417782>Game designers have a moral responsibility to prevent that sort of thing if possible. As a game designer, other people are trusting you with their attention, you have a moral responsibility to avoid wasting their attention if possible.lol no, its a luxury consumable. Onus is on the buyer to know about their own needs and what a product is.
>>94419402>making every excuseYou're the one saying that doing crime for drugs is the same thing as sympathizing with capitalism. That's retarded. You're retarded.
>>94419484Morality does not work that way. Everyone is responsible for taking care of themselves, that doesn't absolve you of being responsible for your own actions or how your actions affect others, blame is not a zero-sum game.
>>94419493If the game is easily piratable, aka all ttrpg games, you can read it before you buy it. Any lack of awareness is on you. If you exist somehow in the 3rd millennium and trust advertising at face value, that's on you. Sellers have no moral duty unless you want to get Kantian in which case have fun with what ought to be while everyone else moves on with their lives.
>>94419526o.k. satan.
>>94419536>reading and considering makes you satanlol okay dudley
>>94414941What if I play a fed infiltrating the underworld?
>>94416804If a single loser can destroy the world, the world was not in a very good state to begin with.
>>94416611Hilarious in the sense that every single thing he said was correct, yeah.
>>94415153Yeah this They're not trying to "take down the system"They just live in it
>>94416932>hey're basically a collection of bad policiesthat's the fun partalso their uniforms are cooler (at least for the pilots and officers, never liked the plastic armor of the stormtroopers)
>>94419611Not possible
>>94419350Any system that allows you to generate capital is capitalism, darling. Stone age cavemen trading beads of amber were engaging in capitalism, complete with fraudsters making counterfeit amber.
>>94416932>I have zero idea why anyone would want to play as the Star Wars Empire.They are blatantly evil, have cool outfits, and lose enough across enough media to have underdog appeal despite being the overbearing oppressive villain. It's more or less the same reason some people rooted for Snidely Whiplash in Wacky Races.
>>94416932They look cool, you tedious dullard
>>94421176That's as true as saying that every kind of human cooperation is communism.
>>94415153Even Hardwired it wasn't "take down the system" it was "take down this specific corporation, then set up our own figurehead CEO"
>>94425044Ooh, so close! But sadly, you're also just completely wrong, sweetie. It's a form of COMMUNALISM, not communism. You see, communism is a very strictly held belief with a strict code of ethics and behaviors as labeled abd codified by its founder, Karl Marx. But capitalism is a much more vague term because it wasn't even coined by capitalists, the soviets came up with it as a slur for "anyone who isn't communist" and Americans just sort of embraced it. As such, you csn basically describe any functioning system of currency as a capitalist system, since all of them spit in the face of communism. Even your basic barter and trade systems are capitalist in nature and must be stamped out according to communists. Nice try though, you ALMOST had it that time~
>>94425207Marx never used the term 'capitalism'
>>94425266>Marx never used the term 'capitalismI, too, enjoy lying to strangers on the internet for no discernible reason
>>94425332
>>94414988Oh, look, it's a Marxists revisionist that bought the wikipedia party line.You should probably kill yourself.
>>94415153I have mentioned this in thread after thread; "punk" in "Cyberpunk" never had anything at all to do with any kind of social movements or specific subcultures. The "-punk" was explicitly used in the American colloquial sense of "those little punks" or "stupid punk kids", originally based on "punks on motorcycles".It never, ever, ever, EVER had anything to do with punk music, and as you say, most cyberpunk protagonists don't even hate the corps, and plenty of cyberpunk stories directly involve corpos. One of the key aspects of the genre is not rebellion, but the fact that the negative aspects of techno-social development traps everyone, from the wage-slave to the corpo.4chinks won't let me link directly, so I'll do it through controlc:https://controlc.com/68d47066
Why are people so opposed to roleplaying ideologies/whatever the fuck else they don't have? Maybe I'm the wrong kind of autistic to get it, but I played a game ran by a pretty lefty guy that had us icing Spanish communists and shooting up poor people. If you can't separate the things you pretend to do at a table while rolling dice from who you actually are and what you believe you should be institutionalized and used as slave labor for fixing America's rotting infrastructure.
>>94419318By that retarded definition, no-one is loyal to the capitalist system - least of all capitalists. You're being a fucking idiot in your eagerness to defend demonstrable retards.
>>94425454>Maybe I'm the wrong kind of autistic to get itThat's exactly the problem, anon.This board is full of people who can not socially adapt to other lines of thinking enough to actually be in a irl PnPRPG.Of course they can't do it, they are socially maladjusted.
>>94425454>Why are people so opposed to roleplaying ideologies/whatever the fuck else they don't have?A lot of people aren't, which is why we bully performative garbage like CY_BÖRK.
>>94425332capitalist=!capitalism>>94425349brother you can literally see on the german version to the right that this is a mistranslation and the original text did not have that word
>>94415262>>94415294The left thinks that the right (Anything Neoliberal Rightwards) has control of the government/policy and that makes their culture punk.The right thinks that the left (Anything Neoliberal Leftwards) has control over cultural institutions/media and that makes their culture punk.Both sides of this think their the underdog when in truth the end goal of those in power is to create a state meant to keep people in subservience to corporate interests while extracting the most value from them, and they realized the best way to do so without extended scrutiny is to keep doing what they always have but to add a rainbow colored curtain and more "meritorcatic" standards over the whole affair to virtue signal.That doesn't mean both sides should get all buddy buddy, as both sides actual policy goals prevents that. But the actual people in control at the moment are souless Moloch Worshiping (In the metaphorical sense) homunculus's wearing different masks for different groups.This in all in the American context that is. For like the brits Neoliberal=Labor/Conservatives that work with them and the Left=Liberal Democrats/Sinn Féin
>>94415294>dapper white supremacistKEKLMAO
>>94426259>LibDems>Left>LibDemsThe Lying Dickheads are the most archetypically mindlessly centrist types in the world. Everything about them is carefully calibrated to place them between Tories and Labour so they can play the >mature adults *compromise* even if it doesn't please everybody fnar fnarcard in every situation. They take it so far they have no coherent identity or policy agenda of their own, they're so exclusively defined by their desperate need to be in the middle(and so by their inane rationale, the adults in the room) that a Limp Dick branch in one part of the country will vehemently support LTNs, 20mph limits in cities, and massive expansion of cycling infrastructure, while in another they'll be members of the local 5G-BRAINWASHING WEF LIZARDPEOPLE WANT TO TAKE AWAY OUR FREEDUMS AND OUR CARS FIGHT BACK SHEEPLE! conspiracy Facebook group and refuse to acknowledge climate change, purely based on what the local Lab and Tory people have positioned themselves as. Their national leadership are utter nonentities because they're so devoid of principles of their own even by British politician standards that they've never made a statement of substance in their lives.An entire party of Sir Humphreys.Lid Dems fucking leftwing, jesus christ.
>>94426714My bad, I wanted to avoid going full American especially with the nuance of the two big tent parties government we have, and ended up falling ass backwards into making things worse.Instead when thinking of Left thing Jeremy Corbin and the Labor members wo ratfucked him out of government as the Neolibs.
>>94414941>tfw I'm forced to oppose capitalism>the only system that produces dominant female CEOs, dominant female lawyers and dominant female Southern Belle landowners >tfw I'm forced to settle for a dominant female doctor or dominant female blue collar worker>none of which wear a tight fitted skirtsuit with high heels that audibly clack as she walks with a slow, confident pace, high enough to barely make her taller than youI hate Godless communists!
>>94426436retard
>>94414941So they're 100% fine with me taking a pdf of their book and spreading it online so that my friends and their friends can have it without paying, right?That's the punk thing to do and it abides by the rule.
>>94425422The fact you can make a corpo character should say it all.
>>94416535Did it for a bit, unfortunately it becomes a 4x game at that point. The players quickly realise it's easier to pay someone else to do all the dirty work while they sit in a boardroom. I had them roll up a set of "enforcer" type characters and it pretty quickly because just a regular corpo espionage setting
>>94429164Watch the sadly shortlived 1996 TV series Profit if you want to see how to run a Corporate campaign.
>>94425266>Marx never used the term 'capitalism'I never said he did, honeybunch. Why does your type always have such a complicated relationship with the truth, bless your dear lil heart.
>>94427077Safehorny mommydommy fags deserve nothing less than execution via hydraulic press.
