Given how the World's Greatest RPG is now about as fantastical as a modern 1st-world country (with similar values) are there any games that do the opposite?I'm looking for the hypothetical "White Human Male Fighters with longswords in a grim, gritty 'verse" where life is cheap, orcs are ontologically evil, women are burned for being witches, and slavery isn't a tragedy, it's a way or life.Or alternatively, the kind of Heavy Metal RPG that would make people clutch their pearls for being 'politically incorrect'.I'll be up front and admit that I despise contemporary social justice issues, and want their trappings to be as far away as possible.
>>94415189D&D 5e (the world's greatest roleplaying game)Any changes you make are part of it and credited solely to WoTC, so it can do literally anything you can imagine and do it well!
>>94415189No.
>>94415189Lamentations of the Flame Princess
>>94415189I don't care to answer your question, but i say this:...Truly,If someone made a fantasy game that had any kind of unique culture, that didn't pander to or echo the Modernists, it would stand out and generate sales.
>>94415189He's shutting down but you'll likely enjoy Venger's stuff. Get it while you can. ACKS might work for you, same with Astonishing Swordsmen & Sorcerers of Hyperborea. Carcosa, although you have blue, jael and dolm make fighting men. Hubris if you want DCC stuff. Any of the 2nd ed WHFRPG and prior. Any TSR D&D. Barbarians of Lemuria, the Connan rpg, the Wizards rpg, tons of them. Fuck it, run Degenisis but deus vault.
>>94415189>the kind of Heavy Metal RPG that would make people clutch their pearls for being 'politically incorrect'.Who even does this anymore?Anyway, lamentations of flame princess maybe.>I'll be up front and admit that I despise contemporary social justice issues, and want their trappings to be as far away as possible.You're still just being an edgy contrarian, even stories from almost 100 years ago had action girls and "slavery is a tragedy" themes.Hell, "life is cheap" feels super modern, just like why nobody gives a fuck about religions in games and everyone thinks it's fine and awesome to have a necromancer animate the dead to help with farm work or whatever.
>>94415189Warhammer fantasy pre 2016
Any game that expects you to create your own characters, adventures, and worlds. Which is practically all of them.
>>94415189GorBarsoom
So, basically Dark Sun without the self awareness?
I like slavery in games as a motivator for players to rescue slaves and make for easy villains. Also more realistic than "lol orcs show up and kill everyone" they should be slavers. But no we can't have that anymore.
>>94417831I know I'm showing my power level here, but I used to spend a lot of time trying to roleplay on yahoo chat between 2003 and 2008, and there were always a ton of "slave" characters who would get really mad if anyone tried to free them (to the point where you started to see "NO FREEING" listed in their profile alongside their other sexual limits, lol). It feels like things are starting to loop back around to that same argument, but from the opposite end, it feels very surreal to me.
>>94415189Barbarians of Lemuria is pretty good. Very Conan and weird fiction inspired. Lots of slavery, black magic, skimpy outfits etc
>>94415189>and slavery isn't a tragedy, it's a way or life.This one is bizarre to me since REH's Conan stories are some of the most violently anti-slavery fantasy stories you can think of. Slavers in Howard's fiction are always villains and end up beheaded by Conan or whatever other hero of the piece there is. He also lectures slaves for not cutting the throats of their owners and escaping on their own.
>>94417862I mean if you want to roleplay being a slave then that's fine yeah. If people want to forbid slavery in a game cause the game literally contains someone who escaped slavery in the 3rd world, I understand. But all this gay X card shit and blanket forbiddance of topics is fucking retarded.
>>94415559Good list. I would add Rifts and Talislanta as games where the setting and author(s) have stayed away from modern politics, both in-game and out-of-game in their companies. They just make fun, rocking RPGs.
>>94417604>>94415189Seconding Tales of Gor from Postmortem Studios.
>>94418094Conan is anti-slavery for himself and people of his race. He doesn't give a shit about some worldwide abolishment of slavery.
Im confused, is slavery not allowed in D&D now?
>>94415473Runequest/Glorantha. Retard.
>>94418794Pathfinder (the guys who used to publish Dragon magazine and then went on to make a 3e-like to compete with 4e) said that slavery didn't exist in their setting, as a bullshit edict intended for social media, similarly to how Hasbro said that there's no homophobia in the multiverse (except that it was even dumber because their setting already contained a bunch of evil nations/factions that were built on slavery, and I still don't understand how they went on writing their setting after that point). I don't think that Hasbro (official D&D) has anything against slavery but I could be wrong.
>>94418855Weird that they dont want the bad guys to do anything but kill. Weird that killing is better than slavery
>>94418884Yea, it's weird on a number of levels. The nicest thing you can say about the paizo guys is that they're genuine left-coast true-believers, no one forced this onto them, this is what they wanted.
>>94415189WFRP 1e and 2e. Barbarians of Lemuria.Barbarians of the Aftermath.Honor + Intrigue.Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 2e in Dark Sun in particular.
>>94415189Did OP just find out about Corellon?
>>94415473I made a system with two settings that do what I've seen no others do. Now, they're not "unique" in the way that they're new. In fact, they're old. And though they use the same base system, the differences are pretty big that, without some major changes, I don't see them being compatible. I am also 99% sure I stole this system from somewhere, I just can't find from where. In short, roll your stat's dice, compare them to your opponent's dice or TN from highest to lowest.The first is a pure, no magic, Gladiator that can be run either from the Gladiator side, or from the Lanista side as running a stable. I've gone around here, Reddit, and forums. No suggestion really did it for me. D&D Dark Sun... I don't even need to say why that one is a no. Mythras is too focused on cults. BRP and GURPS are too generic to do anything well. PbtA sucks. Eternal contenders is DM-less and frankly the rules are weird. Riddle of Steel seems OK but not what I wanted. And Blood Red Sands, which I could find little on.The second is a merchant bazaar one. My players wanted to do that. I asked, and after being accused of being a bot or trolling, I got a handful of suggestions. Traveler is mostly about travel. ACKS is AD&D with base building and not really merchant stuff. Stars Without Numbers: Suns of Gold, which is tacked on. And Ryuutama, which is travel. Though we did end up using some stuff from them.I won't be publishing these for a variety of reasons. Most important, they are niche amongst niches. They'd probably sell like 100 copies, max. Not worth translating into English, comissioning art, formatting it... Too much work for no payoff. Not only that, they have slavery, historically accurate nationalism, and imperialism isn't immediately condemned as evil. So even if I did, that 100 would be halved because of that. If I ever do translate it into English I'll post it online for free, but so far, meh. No interest in that.
I recommend ACKS II the only system where you can throw a bigger melty than the OP
Poopy of the dookie lord/ shadow of the demon lord fits this pretty well. I’ve ran it a few times and only have the core book, but it seemed like a fun authentic medieval setting with no woke or modern stuff. I think it has gone woke now in newer editions, but from what I own it was pretty cool. It’s very very grimderp though if that’s a deal breaker.
>>94418855>>94418884>>94418907Do you not remember how many times hasbro had to cave to public pressure?Remember how all the demons had to be rebranded because christian housewives thought that they'd make their kids evil?
>>94415189Warhammer Fantasy Battle Roleplay. Pendragon. Riddle of Steel. Even D&D has Dark Sun.
>>94420741though I guess they probably weren't owned by hasbro back then, upon thought.Fuck, when did WOTC get bought out again?Either way, D&D caves constantly.
>>94420727How is Weird Wizard? Good? No poop?
I just play GURPS. That way I have the mechanical support to make a game exactly as gritty or cinematic as I please, in whatever genre I want, too. Works out great.
>>94417660Yes. Self awareness is trash.
>>94420820When you play GURPS, the only direction you have left to look is down.
>>94420820Too many rules. Takes forever to make a character. Takes forever to play a character. Most options are traps that are worthless compared to other options that are right next to it.
>>94419147what does that have to do with anything?
>>94420820
>>94420818The weird is because hes gay sorry
>>94415189>I'm looking for the hypothetical "White Human Male Fighters with longswords in a grim, gritty 'verse" where life is cheap, orcs are ontologically evil, women are burned for being witches, and slavery isn't a tragedy, it's a way or life.That's about setting, not system. You can do that even in D&D.
>>94415189>where life is cheap, orcs are ontologically evil, women are burned for being witches, and slavery isn't a tragedy, it's a way or life.Why do you keep making threads about slavery and killing women?
>>94415189You must be a very boring guy
>>94420818No poop probably but I think his new shit is woke. He literally changed the name of weird wizard from mad wizard because he felt it stigmatized mental health issues (LMAO)
>>94420825This. I’m sick of post modern deconstructions of everything cool. I want some authenticity and sincerity in my fantasy once again.Self awareness in fiction and “camp” is pure millennial redditbait
>>94420903You ARE a very mad guy.
>>94420911>He literally changed the name of weird wizard from mad wizard because he felt it stigmatized mental health issues (LMAO)How do people live like this?
>>94417604>>94418373Gor is retardedhttps://mindstalk.net/houseplants.html
>>94420932They are terminally online and Literally driven insane from seething 24/7 about shit that doesn’t matter to anyone but some Twitter incels. Real life leftists who aren’t terminally online aren’t like this, they are all pretty fucking normal people.
>>94420903For you.
>>94420806Retarded seething but fantasy needs to be anachronistic more than it needs to be bizarre.
>>94415189 From Another Time Another Land
>>94421023My game will never be famous like FATAL
>>94420911"mad wizard" was too close to WotC's "Dungeon of the mad mage", plus weird wizard is alliterative.imho I doubt the ableist thing was the real reason, "mad wizard" wasn't a particularly noteworthy name
>>94420936based
>>94420806trash
>>94421048I’m just telling you niggas what he said himself , brother man.
>>94420806You’re so mad that you just spouted trash diarrhea 10x worse then this dumb OP, and this owns the chuds how?
>>94421078yeah I know, but it always felt like bullshit
>>94421097Why sound like a retard on purpose? It would be a trillion times better to just be like “I changed it because I like this better :)”
>>94420992>fantasy needs to be anachronistic nahfantasy can certainly take place in current year or in imagined futures
>>94421104>Why sound like a retard on purpose? to get free attention from triggered fags like you, who will post about the product, share links and start discussions
>>94421116Never heard of it untill today and I googled it because this thread… yikes looks like that gambit didn’t work… even redditors don’t want it, probably because all the right wing chads making fun of it desu..
>>94415189My comment was deleted, but I once again recommend Forbidden Lands.
>>94421128>Pathetic and desperateindeed, it's still publicity>14 million woke flops in media this yearweird wizard was renamed long ago, stuff full of woke shit (like bg3 or the new 5e phb) succeeds all the time. Shit tends to flop on their own lack merits rather than from dumb controversies like this one anyway, such as concord being ugly as hell and aiming for a genre that's full of ftp already
>>94420828>Too many rulesYou're supposed to use only what you want or need. Ignore the rest.>Takes forever to make a character.Legit complaint, but it's only an issue for high-powered characters. It's the price for the degree of control you have over your character. >Most options are traps that are worthless compared to other options that are right next to it.Blatant bullshit>>94420841If you don't like it, don't use it. I don't get how the fact that the game has super-well-researched splats is supposed to be a bad thing. Plus, I'd rather the game be informed by thorough research than retarded authors just going, "Well this feels right, whatever."But seriously. Just don't use the splat you posted a picture of. I don't.
>>94421179nice cope lol
>>94421179>You're supposed to use only what you want or need. Ignore the rest.And how does one find all that they need from all the GURPS books? They have to do a lot of research to get there. Within that span of time, one could also hash together their own system to do the trick if they know it well enough.
>>94421251Who's coping, no games? I have a great time playing the system I play. >>94421314>And how does one find all that they need from all the GURPS books? They have to do a lot of research to get there.That's true, it takes time to build up system mastery. I haven't minded that because I've only needed to gain that familiarity with 1 system in order to play pretty much any game in any genre that I want. >>94421314>Within that span of time, one could also hash together their own system to do the trick if they know it well enough.This is technically, but this is true of every game. Why spend time learning the rules for Shadowrun or Call of Cthulu when when you could just make your own game to do that genre? And the answer is that, *hopefully*, the game's designers were professionals of a high caliber and made a solid system.
>>94421314>Within that span of time, one could also hash together their own system to do the trick if they know it well enoughnta, but that's literally the point of GURPS. You put together your own system, just using the 3d6 for resolution.
>>94415189Are you looking for a system+setting, system, or setting?You could always do some old greyhawk in D&D 3e or 3e.It's not all gritty all the time but it's also not modern.
>>94421367you are lol
>>94421138Oh, it actually released finally?
>>94421187shit can still fail when piggybacking off successful established franchises, the two examples were if anything way more popular than bg1/bg2 or previous editions of d&d.
>>94421294dude, giving attention to something doesn't make it stop being shit. Concord barely got publicity but even if it had gotten more it'd have flopped because shit is disgusting to look at and aims at a market full of ftps
>>94421138yeah, I remember that google searches for it earlier instead resulted in some reddit thread titled something like "Shadow of the Weird Wizard? more like Shadow of the Boring Wizard".Schwalb obviously likes edgy stuff, Weird Wizard was made as an answer to the fags asking for non edgy Shadow of the Demon Lord, it makes sense Weird Wizard would end up bland and made without much passion behind it.
>>94420806OP was a faggot but you're just about made for each other.
>>94422046You sound like you fit in perfectly with OP.As in, you both belong in a mass grave.
>>94415189I just ordered Hyperborea! and I even got a shirt. I think you might dig it.
>>94422159nou
>>94421916Some of it could be due to the pushback against the original name as well. He almost got cancelled. Can see that dulling the interest in a work.
>>94415189https://chatgpt.com/share/673d366f-c438-8009-ad1f-8bc2e9f8900aSo to be on topic, I asked chatGPT about the different kinds of 'modernism' so that we can review how to rebel against them.>Literary ModernismMost RPGs depend on being literal, objective, and linear. Probably the most compared to any other medium, even video-gaming. I think that Noemenon and 3:16 Carnage Among The Stars are both rare examples of modernist RPGs in that definition. If you make a normal RPG then it won't play out in the modernist genre of literature, but a sourcebook itself can be full of tragedy, unreliable narrators, and especially non-linear storytelling.>Architectural ModernismThe objective worst of all the modernisms, but it's easy for people to accidentally be modernist when building bases in say, Minecraft. Because architectural modernism is 99/100 times pure laziness. A game would have to attack this style by exposing how it's both inefficient and dehumanizing as a style that relies on escapism and modern technology to dodge its shortcomings.
>>94422404>Philosophical ModernismProbably what OP meant, and for this I will copy the checklist that ChatGPT made.>Belief in human progress and potential.RPG settings are just as likely to be critical of collective progress (in the case of science fiction) as they are to refuse it completely (most fantasy). Individual progress/potential, however, is baked into most RPGs. An RPG refusing to show the potential of the player characters would be /extremely faggy/, but we can avoid >Reliance on scientific method and empirical evidence.These aren't strong elements of most settings, but anything that refuses a power fantasy, especially in the case of dungeon crawling, will rely on a cautious and investigative attitude of the players.>Skepticism of superstition and traditional authority.It's hard to judge if fantasy is anti-superstition, for obvious reasons, but I'm going to say that it ultimately is. Most fantasy RPGs draw clear lines between living and nonliving, and sentient and nonsentient. They have the basic logic that we now accept, without our inherent biases. As for authority, I think that they lean towards skeptical. RPGs hate hierarchies between PCs and love to present evil religions and monarchies.>Engagement with existentialist and post-Kantian thought.I don't know enough about this, but it's probably not a feature of most RPGs.>Tension between rationalism and individual autonomy.Most RPGs do explore individuals behaviors that keep people from assuming the most effective choice, yes.>Interest in meta-narratives (but challenged later by postmodernism).Fantasy and science fiction RPGs both love to explore a cyclic meta-narrative of history, where people advance to a noteworthy state of advancement before their destruction, leaving the PCs to pick at the pieces.>Exploration of societal structures through ethics and metaphysics.Hello? Alignment, anyone?
>>94422348>Some of it could be due to the pushback against the original name as well. He almost got cancelled.Not really convincing or believable
>>94415189>I am so uncreative, not only do I want something that has been done a hundred times before, but I need a premade setting to do it for me.K
>>94422413So in conclusion, Dungeons & Dragons, and its successors, is mostly a modernist work. An example of an RPG that refuses most attributes of modernism would be Nobilis (non-humanist, non-scientific, superstitious, refusal of powergaming, refusal of metanarratives).>political modernismMost RPGs, even science fiction ones, are direct escapes from the assumptions of modernist politics. The future will be either too libertarian or too aristocratic for it to matter to them. Cy>religious modernismVery, very few RPGs follow the attributes of traditional religion that modernism rebels from. A dogmatic literalist universe is not popular at all with sales or the public, but some fundamentalist had to dabble in the idea at one point.
>>94422417>Twitter outrage brigade bullies nerdninto changing 'mad' to 'weird' >Anon can't see that dampening enthusiasm of edgy nerd lol okay
>>94418855I think it's more that they don't cover slavery in their books anymore, rather than saying it objectively doesn't exist.
Zweihander
>>94422985You should pirate zweihander btw no matter how "based" his shitty whfrpg ripoff is
>>94415189ACKS.It's both a really solid system and offers every opportunity to go all in on all the classic fantasy tropes.Beastmen are evil, you can default your setting to Warlocks are the go-to magic users, slavery is a given since Roman empire, ect.Go forth and build your empire my dude.
>>94415189Dark Sun
>>94415189You can literally include and exclude whatever you want in your own game. it's make believe. if you want to play dnd with all wizards genocided and elf women in rape breeding camps you can literally just include that in your setting. i really don't understand why this is beyond some people. it's YOUR game in YOUR head.
>>94422780>>Twitter outrage brigade bulliesBecause nobody with a brain give a fuck about retards that start "outrages" out of nothing.Guy had already published lots of edgy/dark stuff for his own games as well as for d&d, stuff that got involved in bigger "controversies" than the nothingburger of "mad = ableism" that hardly mattered to more than a handful of tranny autists, even average wokes wouldn't give a damn, even WotC already had "dungeon of the mad mage" already.
>>94422985Awful, lazy clone. WHFRPG isn't even that good of a start, but it at least has some original ideas worth looking at, even if the game itself is a mess. Zwei is basically a trick to take money away from homosexuals who don't know anything about RPGs; a total waste of paper pulp.>>94424031ACKS is one of the worst designed games in recent memory; a boring chore that was designed by someone without a proper editor and seemed to just be aiming for a large page count. Completely worthless charts and table, procedures that make the game a dull grind, and just poor design throughout. It's the kind of shit game that makes me wonder how fucking stupid someone has to be in order to think it's worth anything, because even an idiot should be able to look past the retarded sales pitches its shills spew out and be able to go "Oh, no, this game is just some autistic retard's heartbreaker.">>94424389Not actually all that fun to play, but an excellent setting. Man, what the fuck is up with this thread. It's like a nexus for shit.
>>94424545>Because nobody with a brain give a fuck about retards that start "outrages" out of nothing.Sure makes a lot of people jump around though.
>>94424701Do one better and post something that isn't shit, or piss off.
>>94424701>ACKSexactly/tg/ fags only praise it because of a superficial "hurr it's the real, non woke rpg for white men" when it's just more of the same regurgitated crap we've seen a million times
>>94415583Care to share these stories?
>>94424701>Repeating this argument again after you've been BTFO every time its been brought up, time and time again.The only thing tighter than ACKS in practice is your asshole around anyone who isn't left wing enough to reach out with their right hand and gently tousle Stalin's moustache, faggot.
>>9442075699 though it wasn't finalized until 2001.You can thank Pokemon for that.
>>94424967>lying like a shill liesWe got one, boys. Look at this shill squirm!Also, that's what you think sounds like good banter? Jesus fucking christ, you type like a twelve-year old trying to impress his schoolmates. Stick to shilling your shitty game on Reddit, instead of coming here just for everyone to laugh at your "spend 15 minutes rolling on eight charts before the adventure even starts to see if I caught a cold" retarded heartbreaker.
>>94420818>>94420911Outside of wheelchair shit and the title change, WW is basically SotDL without the heavy leaning on the occult themes/imagery, and they radicay shifted how magic works by giving each spell a number of casts tied to the spell itself, but you can take multiple times to add the number of charges each time (power no longer exists as a mechanic).Also, damage can now be "spent" to add additional combat meanuvers vs adding banes to your roll in Demon Lord.
>>94424967>The only thing tighter than ACKS in practice is your asshole>implying have a loose asshole is a good thinglol
>>94422404>>Architectural Modernism>The objective worst of all the modernisms, but it's easy for people to accidentally be modernist when building bases in say, Minecraft. Because architectural modernism is 99/100 times pure laziness. A game would have to attack this style by exposing how it's both inefficient and dehumanizing as a style that relies on escapism and modern technology to dodge its shortcomings.Neither you nor the AI understand Modernism in architecture. Modernism is about stripping out the unnecessary and letting the building be its own ornamentation. Form follows function, less is more, etc.>>94420921>Self awareness in fiction and “camp” is pure millennial redditbaitPoMo inevitably devolves into self-referential circlejerk but this is just ignorant. Genere fiction as a whole is based on cliches, whether it's Weird Tales or whatever shitty isekai LN you're reading. Hell, the Appointment in Baghdad dates back to ancient times.
>>94420921Deconstruction is perfectly fine if there is an honest goal to improve something to fit with the setting/tone you are pushing for. The issue is that the term has become synonymous with left-wing grifters actively shitting on the very concept they are playing with.
>>94425029>That projectionWe get it, you're here to cry salty bitch tears because people keep talking about the no-no system and it dumps the entire Sahara in your vagina. I know, you're upset, you're emotional, you're downright hysterical because people keep saying nice things about it and you don't like it because its doubleplusungood.You've got a passionate investment in making sure no one ever says anything good about ACKS without you being there to squat on the thread like a discord gargoyle, shitting all over the place as loudly as you can so no one can continue saying nice things about it.But that doesn't mean the rest of us have to entertain your screeching or humour you as if you've got a point.>The mechanics are too in depth! It's poorly designed!I'm sure you can give specific examples of the fat that could be trimmed if that's the case, instead of broad brushing the entire thing. You know, the same question that gets asked of you any time this topic comes up and that you never answer and never will.
>>94422985fuck off daniel
>>94425202>weSorry Ackshill, you're kind of alone.Also, try reading your post out loud and hear how cringe you and your loose asshole sound.
>>94425242>He still avoids the questionIt takes a big man to admit he's not just wrong but full of shit.I'm glad that you had the self-respect to do it.
>>94425263You were literally given a specific example in that post you're replying to.Also, please, don't pretend that the game has "depth", It's about as deep as a puddle. What it has instead is just pointless procedures that don't really add anything to the game but a way for a GM to bore his players and waste everyone's time.Better yet, save yourself the embarrassment and just stop posting entirely. No one needs anything else coming out of your loose asshole.
>>94425304>He's so desperate that he's latched on to my insult for him and is repeating it back to me thinking that's cleverNo, you said, and I'm going to quote directly here;>Completely worthless charts and table, procedures that make the game a dull grind, and just poor design throughout.Notice that none of those are specific, or did you mean>"spend 15 minutes rolling on eight charts before the adventure even starts to see if I caught a cold" retarded heartbreaker.Which, again, isn't a specific mechanic.I'm not hearing any actual mechanics here, any critique of a specific piece that could be improved on. All I'm hearing is you shitting yourself violently and seething as loud as you can.But keep trying, I'm sure you'll give it the old College Try.Though, given how well you've done so far we'll accept grades 3-9.
>>94420921>Self awareness in fiction and “camp” is pure millennial redditbaitI hate it, but even Don Quixote had this.Hell, people love Pratchett and when I tried to read his books they seemed full of this type of humour.
>>94425320>loose asshole shill is still tryinglol, how embarrassing
>>94425329>Still can't engage with the questionI'm glad you've given me a perfect example to refer to going forward of how you've got jack shit to add to any discussion and crumple like a paper cup as soon as anyone asks you to do so.I'm looking forward to bringing it up to discredit you any time I catch you in the wild for the foreseeable.
>>94425348>>94425320>>94425263>ImagesTypical ACKS fag who only shills that shitty game due to the muh white male human fighter vibes.
>>94425366You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about white men
>>94425366Don't bite his political bait. It's what he's hoping for.
>>94425348Loose asshole, you were given a specific example and you're desperate to pretend you weren't. You're pretty desperate in general. If you're not careful, your supervisor might see this and see how bad of a job you've done shilling. You can't even get the cadence of 4chan banter correct.
>>94425396>political baitNTA but Seems to me like he's asking a direct question and the other guy is completely ignoring it.
>>94424701>>94425029>>94425242>>94425366NTA but he's right in regards to your critique: None of these posts adress anything specific or substantial about the system, they don't expose the supposedly unnecesary tables or the places where it could improve. Even if you are right, this is completely useless as a commentary on ACKS. It would be far more productive for everyone if you get more specific and explain your points.That aside, your first post didn't even contributed to the thread by proposing systems that fit OPs criteria, you only bitched about other anon's suggestions. That's awful.
>>94418094Modern audiences are so primed to fight against slavery that they fight to have it removed as a concept from fiction, even as something mustache-twirling villains do.
>>94425437As the anon he's calling a shill, I can guess which part he thinks is unnecessary, that being the procedural hex crawl rules, which cover things like>Random encounters, weather, getting lost, ect, ectWhile out and about.And I'll be honest, if you're Ivory Tower'ing it, they might seem a bit too in depth. I mean who needs to know what the weather is like on any given day am I right?Except then you actually play and your players do something like 'We're going to load this entire library of scrolls onto a donkey, we're in the money now boys'Or, in my groups case, they convinced a mummified priest to become a henchman in return for carrying him around everywhere in a palanquin with a miniature shrine built into it.Suddenly if its raining or not is incredibly relevant since if things get soaked they'll start to degrade.Now, if those rules aren't there and you're dealing with some rules light airy fairy bullshit; how do you fairly decide if it is or isn't raining? Pure mother-may-I basically.ACKS is a robust system, its comprehensive.Doesn't mean you have to use everything all the time though, which is where DM discretion and having some common sense comes in. As always though, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it, at least that's what I think.But hey, that's 'critical analysis of the system' and 'having an actual discussion' which as we all know is the big gay and not what he's here for, no, he's here to shit up the thread because someone said something positive about ACKS and by the jiggling rolls of the fattest mod on Reddit, he can't let that abide.
>>94425551>As the anon he's calling a shill, I can guess which part he thinks is unnecessary, that being the procedural hex crawl rules, which cover things like>>Random encounters, weather, getting lost, ect, ect>making up something and arguing against itI'm not that other anon, I don't think ACKS is one of "the worst designed", but it follows older d&d so close you might as well just play those gamesshit, it even has the table to determine how many languages your magic sword knows.of course if you're going to play hexcrawl, you need hexcrawl rules, duhconstructing the setting tables are more decidedly autistic.
>>94420942>Real life leftists who aren’t terminally online aren’t like this, they are all pretty fucking normal people.>who aren't terminally onlinethat part does a lot of heavy lifting. I get taken aback by most of my encounters IRL with leftists, I guess they must all be terminally online. I can't get through a social interaction with them without a "straightwhitemen,amirite?" It's always something-something-capitalism, what about the trans people of color, such-and-such media is so queer, my pronouns are so-and-so, decolonize something-or-other. And then everyone claps.Rightoid chuds usually at least keep it to themselves IRL.
>>94425437Christ you're a fag.>you only bitched about other anon's suggestions. That's awful.Do you even know what kind of thread you're in, or what OP's asking for? Shut the fuck up, pretending like you don't.You could almost be forgiven if you were talking entirely out of ignorance, but you tried to play the "Can't we just talk like faggots in a barely disguised troll thread?" card like you thought you were clever. Hell, half the thread is missing because our bad janny has been babying it by deleting the dozens of posts that called OP out, and you're trying to pretending the board is as dumb as the remnants of this thread would indicate. Shameful.As to ACKS? Go and look into the game yourself and realize that "spend 15 minutes rolling on eight charts before the adventure even starts to see if I caught a cold" is not an exaggeration. Something as simple as traveling is an egregious chore of a process with a complicated but incredibly poorly designed weather generation process that you cross reference several times and then ultimately use to determine whether or not a character has fallen ill. We're literally talking about several minutes wasted to find out that you caught the sniffles, and the rest of the game's content is little different. It's page after page of poorly designed charts that just add to the page count, would slow the game to a crawl if they were ever actually implemented, and any GM possessing a brain would quickly discard the whole thing and treat it like some misguided vanity project from someone who fancies themself a game designer but doesn't understand that everything he does is boring and tedious.
>>94425551ACKS is hardly alone in the granular autistic hypercomplex genre. I wonder if he constantly bitches about AD&D 1e too.
>>94425617>I guess they must all be terminally online. I can't get through a social interaction with them without a "straightwhitemen,amirite?" It's always something-something-capitalism, what about the trans people of color, such-and-such media is so queer, my pronouns are so-and-so, decolonize something-or-other.>Rightoid chuds usually at least keep it to themselves IRL.nta, I guess it's just relativeI've met lots of "rightoid chuds" who really don't keep it to themselves irl and leftists who don't do really any of the shit you mentionsuch is the way when using one's own limited personal experiences as argument
>>94425649Nothing of what you described seems particullary egregious or vain, or even as autistic or complicated as a game like Harnmaster or GURPS. As a matter of fact it seems right in line with AD&D, the very game ACKS openly imitates. I simply don't see your point, or why you seem so particullary bitchy about ACKS.
>>94425551even super lightweight games often do include weather systems if there's traveling involving lmao that doesn't counts as "too in depth", you just chose an example that's trivial to argue that it can be useful.
>>94425607>it follows older d&d so close you might as well just play those gamesSee, that's personally what I like about it. The way I look at ACKS is that it takes what older D&D did well and then goes 'And here's how you can create your own settings using the same mechanics' - which is what was lacking from older D&D versions.Playing Blackmoor for the 374th time doesn't appeal to me, but being able to create my own settings does.It's a great, big, lovely, customizable toolkit that has let me build my own OD&D-esq setting from the ground up, complete with cannibalistic savages whose leaders can engage in blood rituals to transform into living gods, toad-orcs who are so swole that the brute squads don't even bother with weapons and instead just wandering around twisting peoples heads off with their bare hands (and who can also tap into an aboleth-style ancestral hivemind if they get high enough level), spells that can transform low level warriors into sacred serpent soldiers to act as thugs for the clerics cult if they can find somewhere to do the ritual and skirmish level mass combats that've been swung by the fact one side stole a bunch of muskets as part of their last dungeon crawl leading to them taking advantage of the shock rules against vast hordes of slave militia.None of this is refluff, none of it is 'Oh, mechanically it's not entirely down right, but I can present it that way when doing the narrative', everything I've described is backed by the actual mechanics, from races, to classes, to spells, to gear.It's so refreshing to be able to do that, rather than having to bend the pre-existing setting to do what I want and pretend it fits.That's what I like about ACKS.
>>94425662Older games have something of an excuse for their terrible and nonsensical charts, and there's almost something cute about them, considering they were from a time when research actually took effort and visits to the library. But, modern games should reflect something of the lessons we've learned over the decades, alongside the advances in technology and just general knowledge.It's kind of like cars. If you saw a car from the 1930's that got 10 miles to the gallon, had no suspension to speak of, was louder than a jet plane, and needed five minutes for its engine to heat up, you'd probably respect it for what it is and may even enjoy the experience of driving it, partly as a look back into the history and evolution of vehicles. But, if someone made a modern car with the same traits, you'd be more than correct to ask "How did you fuck up this badly."And, if the modern car is somehow even worse, you'd be more than correct to ask "Why don't you kill yourself."
>>94425662>AD&D 1eNTA, but Gygax explicitly wanted AD&D to be a "fair" and "objective" version of D&D for organized, competitive gaming, in an era before computers were all that common or capable.old D&D had lots of cool shit that built the genre, but also a lot of shit that it's obsolete and nonsensical in retrospect and that fags only cling to out of a sense of nostalgia for something that never really worked the way they're imagining it did.
>>94425727>But, modern games should reflect something of the lessons we've learned over the decades, alongside the advances in technology and just general knowledge>Literally the 'Umm, sweaty, it's not [UPDATED FOR MODERN AUDIENCES], and by that I of course mean Queer and rules light' argumentLol.Lmao.Lel.Kek
>>94425756>desperately trying to make it politicalAckshills, ladies and gentleman.
>>94425766Your words, not mine, cuckold.
>>94425771No, it's literally you trying to put words in my mouth.Thanks for those posts though, they're the exact kind needed to showcase that ACKS is a garbage heartbreaker and that when the shill is desperate to deflect or get attention, he'll try to avoid looking at the system and instead try to talk politics.
>>94425607interesting chart, how do you use it?
>>94425713>It's so refreshing to be able to do that, rather than having to bend the pre-existing setting to do what I want and pretend it fits.It feels more like the opposite, ACKS gives so much detail that any setting in it would feel like minor variations on the same thing.
>>94425766Oh and of course>Still won't name a specific mechanic, keeping it vague so no one can point out exactly how he's both wrong and retardedNow, I'll give you credit, I've used the car metaphor myself, hell I almost did in my post above.But I'm giving actual examples of things I like then extending it into the metaphor.You meanwhile don't have shit and won't present shit because you aren't anything but shit.>>94425794>Still trying to ape what I've said back at me instead of engaging the point
>>94425794What's wrong with the system?
>>94425800You spend eight hours fiddling with it, and then crying when your players ask why your setting is so fucking retarded.
>>94425819>keeping it vague so no one can point out exactly how he's both wrong and retardedYou mean avoiding getting into the weeds with shills? Who are you hoping is dumb enough to not see through you, especially after specific mechanics were already addressed?
>>94425794Eh, it is serviceable enough for the target audience, but you know it's shilled by fags who believe WotC is forcing every 5e player to make every capaign about brave black transwomyn tieflings making white males see the errors of their ways or some shit.reminds me of the fans of Kingdom Come: Deliverance. The game is serviceable enough, but you know most of the shills only cared about it because of politics. Plus it's so obviously fantasy/super cherrypicked "history", but it matches their romanticized views so well that they'll insist over and over that it's historical lmao
>>94425800When you generate a setting you use it to determine what goods it will want. Then when you roll to see whether there's merchants available to buy your goods, the reaction roll to persuade the merchant is going to be modified by that demand.
>>94425727While I see your line of argumentation and how it might be true, I don't think it applies particullary well to either ACKS or AD&D. Equating quality with simplicity is IMO a bad call.AD&D DMG has a shitton of tables and subsystems that seem unnecesary or stupid at first glance, yet in the end they actually make sense once you take the intended game progression into account: Sure, a table of active male and female members of a settled population seems superfluous when your party is a square of dungeon-delving hobos, but if they reach level 10 and get a stronghold suddenly the number of avaliable manpower in a fiefdom is very important, specially if the campaign becomes a wargame. Tables to populate the wilderness with castles and the denizens of said castles all both reinforce the implicit post-apoc settings and naturally create potential dungeons and questgivers that fit in the overall hexcrawl. In ACKS case, because it tries to simulate fiefdoms and realms that somewhat make sense, the above is also true. And sure, as a GM you can mother-may-I at your hearts content, but having support within the system is also nice.
>>94424873No? People like if their gaming group is the kind of proactive people who go "Well wait, we're traveling from Lumber Town A to Coastal City B, can we take a shipment of lumber with us and how much will it cost it? Oh the local lord has a monopoly. Uh, how much would it cost to bribe him?"
>>94425801I can see where you're coming from on that, but honestly, the base mechanics are broad enough that you can get variation. More so than, say, AD&D, which I'd say is a fair standard to compare it to, given AD&D had:>Council of Wyrms>Birthright>Darksun>Planescape>So on, so forthQuite a lot of the big, broad stroke base mechanics are things that'd apply in any setting assuming it's not completely gonzo (survival, weather, hiring troops, morale, ect), you can then build on those to create your own classes, races, ect, which is where the differences come in.And given those differences tend to be heavily player facing since it's what's on their sheet, I find it works pretty well. The above mummy-wranglers have engaged with the setting really nicely on its own terms for example rather than falling back on D&D-isms.But I can at least respect where you're coming from since it's an actual specific criticism, unlike the pig-fucking, dildo cowboy who is shitting up the thread as we speak.
>>94425859>Equating quality with simplicity is IMO a bad call.anon didn't do that, you insincere retard
>>94425649That's not something that exists in ACKS, I or II. Yes there's chart rolling for procedural shit, but you don't die as a result UNLESS you're rolling on abstract dungeons.
>>94425867I am not trying to be insincere nor misrepresent anon's point, and I apologize if it came out that way. His previous post adressed ACKS hypercomplexity and useless charts, and I argued that what seems hypercomplex and useless becomes relevant with the intended game progression.
>>94425867>Muh Charts, muh charts, it takes a thousand years to read a single chart! How can anyone deal with tables at their tables!Don't pretend that he's not attempting to poorly sleight of hand 'Everything needs to be rules light because I'm a simpleton who can't handle anything more complex than 2d6+Stat' into a complaint against the system.We can all see what he's up to, because he's too fucking stupid to hide it properly.
>>94425859>yet in the end they actually make sense Some do. Many don't. Many, many don't. There's plenty of charts in AD&D that really were just there because someone spent time making them and no one felt like editing them out, and they were always just trying to fill out page count anyway. Extrapolate that sentiment to the extreme, and you end up with a system that's a showcase of the worst kind of design mentality. > but if they reach level 10 and get a stronghold suddenly the number of avaliable manpower in a fiefdom is very important,Very important? That definitely sounds like something you should roll up on a poorly conceived chart made by a guy who doesn't understand math or demographics very well, and was made with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of your setting, all to produce a result that only produces a slight adjustment that you could largely ignore because the system is so flaccid and tedious.
>>94425950>this is how outsider shills imagine people on 4chan actually postI'm shocked you didn't go with a wojack.
>>94425924But the point is that the chart exists and it's made within the framework of the system. I do agree that the charts are far from flawless, but it's better than some dumbass who doesn't know how to integrate it into the system to make houserules that tend to unbalance it. For instance, my ACKS players spent a long time whining about why crafting and construction takes so long because they're used to a specialized division of labor economy, whereas ACKS assumes that your carpenter sources their own wood and then fucking crafts it because the tech level is approximately Roman, not medieval.
>>94425966I'm glad that they didn't. Wojaks need to fucking die.
>>94425924In regards to the first point, while I agree that some tables in AD&D will see far more use than others and that things like the specific type of gems and its properties might seem superfluous, I haven't yet found one that is completely useless or has no bearing at all either in setting construction or actual game. There might be however, I don't deny it.In regards to the second point, I don't see it: Gygax anthropolgy and demographics, as shoddy as it might be, offers numbers and systems I can use to rule otherwhise a vague and undefined situation in a way that uses the tools (wilderness generation for example) already in the system. It's a toolbox. I am not producing a "slight adjustment", I am getting a model I can modify or follow, yet far more than what I had at the start.
>>94425924>That definitely sounds like something you should roll up on a poorly conceived chart made by a guy who doesn't understand math or demographics very well, and was made with absolutely no knowledge or understanding of your setting, all to produce a result that only produces a slight adjustment that you could largely ignore because the system is so flaccid and tedious.Notice how he doesn't suggest any alternative system, or give any backing for how ACKS fails to understand math or demographics.Just 'blind claim, you can trust me on it bro, I've done the research and he hasn't, honest guv'When I say that ACKS-haters lack any substance, this is what I mean, they refuse, point blank, to present anything you can actually engage with. They put actual effort into avoiding presenting an alternative because that'd mean things could continue with a back and forth, comparing the good and bad points of the two systems, ect, ect.Every post they make is an attempt to hammer the discussion termination button as hard as possible, filled with thought terminating cliches and attempts to shame anyone out of further conversation.These people don't just live where healthy discussion goes to die, they've started a fucking commune there.>>94425966>Muh outsidersYou'll never fit in, because your entire function is the opposite of the function of this board.People are here to talk about things. You are here to do your damnedest make sure they don't.
>>94425967>But the point is that the chart exists and it's made within the framework of the system. Exactly. The point is that it's a bad chart that's part of a bad system designed to be slow, tedious, and cumbersome. A bad chart is worth far less than no chart at all. The game seems designed not to be fun for anyone except autistic GMs who exceeds all probability and succeed in being actually dumber than the designer.The players want a world that makes sense and feels like a living, breathing place, and not an insane cacophony of invisible numbers producing random results while following arbitrary and poorly designed procedures. Rather than the GM making rational decisions using their knowledge of their own setting, we instead have GMs encouraged to waste time tracking and generating variables that the players will never see or understand and are impossible to make sense of with intuition because of how poorly designed they are.The player side of ACKS is seeing a mediocre D&D clone that's slow and clunky because the GM's checking notes and charts and trying to impress them with how much is going on behind the scenes, only to produce garbage results that just makes them wish their GM had enough balls to make decisions for themselves.
>>94426024>People are here to talk about things. You are here to do your damnedest make sure they don't.Nice.
>>94426068>an insane cacophony of invisible numbers producing random results while following arbitrary and poorly designed proceduresThe fact you've had to commit yourself completely to the position of 'No, weather patterns are both tedious to generate, boring and at the same time invisible to the players' is incredibly amusing.>Players will never need to know if it's reasonably good weather or not while hex crawling, any attempt to claim otherwise means you're a shill!
>>94426010>haven't yet found one that is completely useless or has no bearing at allBut I've found plenty that are more trouble than they're worth, either because they slow the game down, produce ridiculous or unnecessary results, or what little they add to the game only serves as a distraction or red herring that has players focusing on superfluous details.If I had a chart for what bread you'd find at a bakery, and made a big show of rolling ten times to see what kind of rolls are available for sale, would it be completely useless? No, because in an extreme, unlikely scenario an NPC might be in dire and immediate need of a croissant. But, wasting five minutes of everyone's time every time they visit the bakery would likely have the players either stop visiting bakeries entirely, or even worse visiting them constantly because they're convinced that there must be something special about these bakeries and that there might be something worthwhile in them if they just get a lucky roll.
>>94426068But how are the charts bad? What exactly ACKS miss in regards to demographics or math? Dude you have to be specific and explain how any of this ruins the game, because so far I am not seeing anything worse or far more complex to run than AD&D or Harnmaster. >Their knowledge of their own settingsMost people don't bother with demographics. And even if we can call the variables useless, ACKS is ultimately a toolbox: Half of the complexity I am seeing is all determined at the moment of building the setting, not actual play. The way you present the case is as if the GM will be determining the cost of rice and wine in Buckfuckistan while running a dungeon.
>>94426068While I agree that it's slow, tedious, and cumbersome I completely disagree about it being bad. I don't have autism and I enjoy the game. Admittedly I have about 9 pages of house rules that modify some of those rules, but no system works 100% outside the box. Especially one with a reach as encompassing as ACKS. My players consistently hire laborers for their projects. I need to know how many laborers there are per month. That number is affected by season and whether there's war going on. Cities with trade routes are gonna have stronger markets than cities in the ass end of nowhere. The invisible numbers exist but they're not random. I do think that it would be swell if there was some kind of automated software that could generate a world using ACKS rules because yes, it's a lot of work, but the numbers make sense within the context of the system and expected setting. Read it again for clarity. And no player is ever impressed by the random number generator. They want to see results. But the results need to be internally consistent and my point is that the average GM doesn't know enough about economics/labor supply and demand/trade routes to make that decision within the above context. And if they DO have more knowledge than Macris, then they should use it because that decision is going to be better. And a bad call by a GM is going to snowball. For instance if this GM says that elves can produce lumber at 3 times the rate of another race without depleting their forests, that will lead to the question of "Why aren't the elves exporting this lumber so that the humans and dwarves don't cut down their forests?" If the dwarves are capable of perpetual motion machines, why haven't they caused the industrial revolution? If the merfolk can do metallurgy underwater then what's actually on the sea floor? I don't know about your players but my players like interacting with the world. Pic related (a small example of the kind of stuff my players ask).
>>94426150>Chart you posted as an example gives 'Also they might know information, or bullshit you, or rob you, also there's a good 10% chance they're pretty well off or even outright rich, which might give you connections up the social ladder, they can be mistaken for other groups letting you use them as spies, ect'Now I get it anon, you're completely lacking in anything even resembling an imagination and can't comprehend how players would interact with information or opportunities that come from chance rolls.You're so completely, terminally brain rotted from being led by the nose through so many campaigns that you hear 'Tandzledown Heights is a logging town, its recently had an outbreak of rust monsters and is in desperate need of replacement tools' and go 'So what?' rather than seeing the chance it presents.I apologize anon, I no longer think you're an anti-ACKS shill here from a discord to try and silence any discussion.I instead have to concede that you're just 52 flavours of retarded and not able to engage with complicated systems or the proactive play style ACKS is based around.
>>94426150If you want to use the table to determine the types of bread sold in bakery you don't roll while your players are asking for bread, you determine that as part of prep to create a sense of atmosphere and cultural depth. Many of the things you deem clunky at a table are all part of making the setting rather than playing in it.And the Harlot Table is a rather silly choice: Some of the results there can be used as information-brokers for the party, explicit in the table itself, while others can be confused with noblewomen and cause trouble if the party fumbles the social interaction. It's all flavor and potential hooks.
>>94426150Or it could be that the players like ROLEplaying and want to know whether this particular bakery is good or not and has the things they want or maybe they want to open up a competing one? Also you don't need to roll every time - only if the players ask - but having an algorithm to determine this IS important.
>>94426155>But how are the charts bad?They're designed by someone who only understands "More is More," and never learned how to do even basic refinement.Look at this chart.>>94425607All that pointless complexity, and half of it is entirely nonsensical, like beer and grain having no correlation but wine and beer being nearly identical, which is idiotic in a way that makes you wonder if a chlld came up with it.We could nitpick the entire thing, but that's just getting into the weeds, and all for a chart that just exist to waste people's time and produce nonsensical results that won't ever really matter unless your players are wasting their lives trying to play a game of Taxes and Tariffs while being unable to make sense of any of the underlying mechanics that are invisibly generating idiotic results.Is your goal just to waste everyone's time? Kind of makes sense that you run ACKS.
>>94426205>I could critique it>I just refuse to because that'd be 'getting into the weeds' and I'm better than actually backing my claims with evidenceGod you're such a piece of shit.
>>94426188You could just say "It's a bakery on a good street. It looks like it has a decent selection."Done. Or, you could make things spicy, and say something like "It's got a long line of people, all excitedly talking about the new Gutburster Meatpie, all while the half-orc baker sings obscene orc songs from inside his shop."A chart isn't a replacement for a brain. Maybe you should try getting the latter before relying on the former.
>>94426024>These people don't just live where healthy discussion goes to die, they've started a fucking commune there.>People are here to talk about things. You are here to do your damnedest make sure they don't.
>>94426205>unless your players are wasting their lives trying to play a game of Taxes and Tariffs You do realize that that's the target audience yeah? Like my players literally care about shit like that: >>94426178And the chart makes absolute fucking sense. A settlement that is has been established for a long time is going to want less tools and more food. A frontier settlement in the tundra is going to want all the tools they can can get. And knowing this, if you're going out to Nordgaard with a load of tools, you're probably going to make a profit, but HOW much profit? ACKS has the charts to answer that. If you're the kind of player that doesn't want to do that, fine, you don't have to.
>>94426210>i just critiqued it>i'm not going to waste more time further critiquing it because we could all do that endlessly because of how sloppy and shitty it all is>"BUT WHY YOU NO CRITIQUE IT?!"Is the only thing you understand is how to waste people's time?
>>94415189Well I would say TSR D&D but it isn't for mudcore faggots like yourself
>>94426247>Immediately goes to 'Or you as DM can play 'Mother may I' with the players'You really are a contemptible little wart that just doesn't get it, aren't you?>>94426257>I just said it doesn't make sense>...that's not a critique, you've just made a claim without an->LALALALA, I'M NOT LISTENINGGiven how you've now been squatting on this thread like a toad for at least 6 hours, know what?Yes, if you're going to waste all our time being a fucking faggot for this long and put this much effort into it? You can fucking well 'waste your time' further by substantiating your claims somewhat, instead of acting like everyone else asking you to stop talking out the side of your mouth and actually provide some backing is asking for the world.Stop being a coward and have the balls to actually make some specific claims that others can call you a retard over.For example >>94426253 this feller calling you a retard is a good start.
>>94426205>unless your players are wasting their lives trying to play a game of Taxes and TariffsNigga are you serious? ACKS II has a whole class dedicated to nothing but commerce. All classes are also encouraged to invest, expand and colonize eventually.Yes, it's intended that at some point your players will be playing Taxes and Tariffs even if only to finnance this or that project. Like, do you even know what ACKS is about?
>>94426247I agree! You can do that and make shit up and in the context of a bakery it doesn't matter. And ACKS doesn't try to model the type of baked goods. But on the other hand if the baker is giving you a quest to get him flour, and you're in the middle of a wheat farming community, the question naturally arises "Nigger, why can't you get flour from any of the 2d4x3 farmers or 1d3-1 wheat merchants that are in town right now?" And now the GM needs to answer that question - is there something special about the flour that the baker needs? Is it because the farmer's guild is shutting the orc farmer out because they're racist? These are all interesting questions but they need to be internally consistent.
>>94426253Other merchants are going to be aware of macro-trends and will be adjusting their trade accordingly. If you're going to be playing a game of merchants, you should be aware of something as basic as that.
>>94426285But anon, why would you want to know about taxes or trading when you're going to be running a small town? That's clearly retarded and pointless. Instead you should rely on the DM just telling you what your town needs and when you inevitably ask for further details be stuck with him making shit up.That's better than a living, breathing world.Because something-something-charts-motherfucker-something..
>>94426290He's an ACKS-fag. Look at the posts and see just how stupid they are, and now imagine if any of them would pass even a high school economics class.
>>94426290>adjusting their trade accordinglyOkay what does that actually MEAN for the amount of gold I make? I have 10 loads of rare wood that I bought for 430 gp a pop. Which city do I take them to? Let's say I'm a player in your world. >>94426305I accept your concession, troon. Do me a favor and 41% yourself with a helium exit bag. Pic related.
>>94426290If the point of the table is to give the GM a guide and outline for market demands then he already has the material to adjust it depending on the presence of competitors, IMO. Still more than what you get with other RPGs.
>>94426181>It's all flavor and potential hooks.It's entirely unnecessary though, and what flavor it brings is essentially "Here is a very generic list of prostitute types, though it doesn't at all interact with the preceding rules, making a Cheap Trollop just as likely a source of valuable information or a thief as an Expensive Doxy."It's cute, but it's not a great chart and largely useless, as you're better off making your own decisions or your own charts rather than adhering to it or really using it for anything other than funny things to call someone's mother.
>>94426364>Flavour is unnecessary>Hooks are unnecessaryAnti-ACKS'ers everyone.
>>94426364No shit. All rules in an RPG are unnecessary, you're aware of that? You can just roleplay and then just decide based entirely on whether the player made a convincing argument or not. And I don't know why you're bringing that chart into it, because it's not dependent on the market class. But if a place has both cheap whores and expensive escorts, the expensive escort is going to have more rumors about the nobility vs the cheap whore, no?
>>94426364>Entirely unnecesaryNow you are getting retarded: With this dumb line of argumentation we might as well delete half of the monster manual and erase most classes. The different names alone and the implied or explicit differences between the harlot types helps defining the character of a city on top of giving information and hooks to the players, and that you think it's all funny names borders illiteracy.Further: With this line of thought we might as well play a storygame. Why bother when you can just make everything up "for your own settings"?
>>94426385Honestly, the chart gives you a surprising amount to work with, re-read the Harlot chart and what do you get out of it?Because what I get is a shitload of personality and how they might be played. You say 'Saucy Tart' to me and I think someone a bit playful or who has a raunchy sense of humour, which is a world different from a 'Haughty courtesan'.His argument is purely reductive, 'Oh but we could remove all of this' - yes, but why would you when it serves a function and makes the game richer?
>>94426429I dislike stuff that is dependent on a random d100. If you're in the docks district, you shouldn't be encountering the expensive doxy, haughty courtesan, wealthy procuress, or a rich panderer.
>>94426355If you're going to play a game of merchants, the designer should understand at least basic economics.
>>94426429I think part of the problem is that he assumes all rules being used all the time and not when they are contextually relevant.
>>94426444So go on then. How does he not understand basic economics? Substantiate your claim.
>>94426444Who says he doesn't tho? Because he only gave an economic outline to the GM instead of taking in account every single possible variable, all of it can be easily adjusted by the GM?
>>94426442>I dislike-We get it, you've spent the last 6 hours whining and shitting over how you don't like things.Maybe you should suggest some alternatives instead? Or is that too hard for you compared to bitching?>>94426448Yes; we've well established by this point that the fundamental problem is that he's retarded.
>>94426458...are you genuinely retarded? I've been advocating for an alternative the entire time I've been posting in this thread. That alternative is ACKS. The estrogen is getting to your brain.
>>94426458>>94426347See, this is why I'd never play ACKS.Even if the game were awesome (I genuinely have no idea, it just seems like D&D 1e), ACKSfags always seem to force conversation about culture wars, trannys, wokes, chuds and all that retarded boring crap, instead of just calling others retarded faggots as 4chan tradition mandates.
>>94426498fuck, meant to quote this guy >>94426477
>>94426477>That alternative is ACKSMy mistake, I mistook you for the guy sperging any time anyone says anything positive about ACKS.
>>94426385>All rules in an RPG are unnecessary, you're aware of that? Yes, that's why when you design rules, they should be as flavorful and useful as possible, instead of just taking up space and only hitting the lowest hurdle of "Well, it could POTENTIALLY be useful maybe kinda."Filling a book up with lukewarm shit is how you end up with a lukwarm shit system.>But if a place has both cheap whores and expensive escorts, the expensive escort is going to have more rumors about the nobility vs the cheap whore, no?Right, and would also be less likely to be a thief.
>>94426477>That alternative is ACKS.>alternativeit's just the same shit
>>94426518It's worse, because it uninspired clonetrash with worse design than what its copying, and apparently it's only apparent selling point is its politics.
>>94426546>Keeps insisting it's all about the politics while ignoring posts like >>94425713 that actually explain why people like itKeep telling yourself that, maybe one day you'll believe it.
>game gets critqued>CRITIQUE IT DIRECTLY>game gets directly critiqued>NOT ENOUGH, CRITIQUE IT MORE DIRECTLY>game gets further directly critiqued>NOT ENOUGH, NOT ENOUGHIs the only way ACKShills know how to do anything is to try and be as tedious and retarded as possible?
>>94426566>Make vague claims>People tell you to stop being a little bitch and be more specific>Insist on how that's 'getting lost in the weeds' but make indirect, lukewarm reference to things you think don't work>People explain why they work>Get saltier than the dead sea and refuse to engage furtherYou're incapable of making an argument, let alone one that has good faith involved.
>>94425865>>It's so refreshing to be able to do that, rather than having to bend the pre-existing setting to do what I want and pretend it fits.>AD&D settingsIn both ACKS and AD&D you just get the same super restrictive and autistic generic pseudomedieval, and anything beyond that pushes you to handwave and use wizards/gods to bullshit away and admit the autistic "realism" (ie tables, economics and so on) never really meant shit
>>94426555>laborous shill post that pretends a "toolkit" full of worthless and poorly made tools stapled to an aged system, with nothing remotely resembling a creative or inspiring idea, has some kind of valuelol, you can find hundreds of other amateur heartbreakers just like it. It's actually funny that we're even pretending there's any point in discussing it, when the OSR general has literally dozens of better games for free.
>>94426592>just get the same super restrictive and autistic generic pseudomedieval>He knows so little about the system he's been seething about for the past 5 hours that he doesn't even know the default setting for ACKS is classical Greco-roman rather than pseudomedievalChrist, rope yourself already instead of making bullshit claims and pretending to know anything.
>>94426577>trying to re-imagine the thread because you hate you personal pet-system being directly and soundly thrashedWhoa, don't overwork your imagination there buddy, you've probably had it stunted from playing ACKS.
>>94426592Nigga ACKS isn't even medieval and to get something like that you need to actually tamper with the system. What are you even sperging about?
And now we reach the part of the thread where the anti-ACKS shill loses any sense of coherency and just keeps claiming that they 'won' despite getting thoroughly fucked in the throat.And any time anyone says 'No, you retard, you got proven wrong a dozen times over by a half dozen people' they just repeat the same claim, but louder and more insistently while assuring themselves that everyone who disagreed with them was the same person and/or paid to do so.This has been a thread-long tutorial on how to deal with such people, for anyone reading this, feel free to refer to this thread going forward whenever one of these worthless, subhuman warthogs pops up.
>>94426613>greco-roman setting>has books and coffee and this armorHuh. Whelp.
>>94426613>past 5 hoursDude, I've been in this thread for like 20 minutes tops.>classical Greco-romanHow would the coat of paint matter when literally almost all of it is pulled straight from pseudomedieval 1e?
>>94426652>this is how shills imagine people talk on 4chanIt's embarrassing.
>>94426669>The shill has now malfunctioned so badly that he's reset back to 'Boy I sure am 4chan and you sure aren't, please everyone, believe my credentials'>Still hasn't answered the first question asked of him way back when
>>94426652>they just repeat the same claim, but louder and more insistently while assuring themselves that everyone who disagreed with them was the same person and/or paid to do so.Isn't that exactly what you're doing by constantly repeating>'No, you retard, you got proven wrong a dozen times over by a half dozen people'Reading through the thread, the anti-ACKS guy rarely pointed out specific problems, but the few times he did you also just ignored it and said he was wrong without actually explaining why. The most correct thing you've said was way earlier when you stated that you two would be unable to have a productive discussion on the topic.
>>94426695>shill hopes that the thread magically disappears and people can't see how not only was his game directly and soundly thrashed, his only counter-argument was begging for more thrashing while also doing his worst imitation of a /b/-tardlol, thread's still here.
>>94426658The default setting is the Aurian Empire, whose demographics and commerce are both modeled after ancient started rather than medieval realms for the sake of having big battles and armies. That despite plate armor existing, and mostly just so the system can be used for more medieval settings with some adjustments.You would know this if you actually read ACKS.
>>94426498>>94426508You will never fit in.
>>94426701Alright, I'm going to engage sincerely with you on this; point me to a time he's specified a problem with the system which I haven't directly addressed.I am completely willing to address any point on its own terms and the only pre-defence I'll make is 'any claim made without evidence can be disregarded without evidence', which is why I ignored his 'God the research behind the tables/systems/economy is so bad! Don't you see how bad it is guys, it's not even pre-schooler levels! Just trust me, I know that ACKS actually contains full on blow-by-blow break downs of how its economy functions but it doesn't guys! You've got to just let me say this without any evidence or backing, believe me!' schtick out of hand.
>>94426701Both claims he made (useless charts and the author not understanding economy) were either questioned and disproven (the charts aren't useless, and the economy sorts of make sense), or when asked to specify he threw a tantrum.
>>94426566You haven't given a single point of critique. You say shit like "it's just hooks and flavor" then when you get called out, you say it's "lukewarm." None of these are quantifiable problems, you dinsingenuous cunt. "The tables are unnecessary unless you're playing taxes and tithes." Well, people ARE playing that. "Oh well, you don't need the tables." Yes we do. "No, it's a shit system." >>94426592ACKS isn't pseudomedieval. The equivalent is right after the collapse of the Roman Empire. >>94426610Post five that let me know where I should take my ten loads of lumber to sell at the best price. >>94426658>muh aestheticsThis is how I know you're a faggot.
>>94426711If you understood anything about anything, you'd understand that the medieval period extended all the way to the rise of the Roman empire, and that it's embarrassing for you to try and say "It's not pseduo-Medieval, despite it containing countless elements that existed only in the Late Medieval period; it's Greco-Roman, despite that still being largely held within the Early Medieval period and thus still Medieval."You're basically a fucking moron. No wonder you love ACKS.
>>94426701He hasn't done that a single time. The ACKS economy system DOES absolutely have problems - it doesn't handle positive feedback loops very well, it has some issues about the number of laborers vs craftsmen vs specialists vs total population of a city, it doesn't go into details about undead or golem labor for instance - but none of the guys posts addressed a specific issue.
>>94426749>The equivalent is right after the collapse of the Roman Empire.That's Medieval you retard. Some scholars even mark that as the exact start of the Early Middle Ages in some territories.
>>94426749>right after the collapse of the Roman Empire.Isn't that literally medieval?
>>94426756...nigger you ARE retarded the estrogen has rotted your brain
>>94426786>>94426797That's Dark Age dumdums
>>94415189So, this thread makes me conclude that ACKS is indeed the perfect game for OP, as OP is someone who doesn't really play games and just want to see the about trannies
>>94426780Because it's unnecessary. We're not talking about some well designed game written by someone with even rudimentary intelligence; it's a slapdash collection of half-researched nonsense that falls apart when you give it even the littlest shake.You're like a guy standing in front of a cow that's gone through a meat-grinder and asking "What's wrong with it?""The eyes for a start.""What's wrong with its eyes? They're both there. Somewhere.""Yeah, but they're smeared together with its liver.""Okay, but what ELSE is wrong with it?"Is your only hope to tire out everyone that tries to argue with you?
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/dark%20age
>>94426780>The ACKS economy system DOES absolutely have problems - it doesn't handle positive feedback loops very well, it has some issues about the number of laborers vs craftsmen vs specialists vs total population of a city, it doesn't go into details about undead or golem labor for instance - but none of the guys posts addressed a specific issue.Well there's a simple reason he hasn't done that.To make those critiques you have to have actually read and played the system rather than simply been told by an actual honest to god reddit janny that it's an evilwrongbad system written by Hitler Von Skeletor and then acted in accordance with believing that to be 100% true.>Y-you're bringing politics into i-Fuck off, we all know politics is the reason you react like this to this specific system and no others, you're more transparent than an Amsterdam hookers cunt-covering.
>>94426735>>94426739>>94426780Most obvious to me was here >>94426205 where he pointed out how this chart >>94425607 has beer and wine as very similar trade goods, but they're not correlated at all with grain/vegetablesThe only reply he got in the context of the chart specifically ended up talking about tools instead, or otherwise just ignored the point completely. I don't know if he's right or not, or even really how that table is supposed to function, but it seems really disingenuous to act like he hasn't made any specific critiques when you've ignored one of the most specific ones.
>>94426810Dark age is just an alternative term for the middle ages/medieval times. Even if some people use it only for the first half of the medieval times, it's still medieval.
>>94426818That's not a fucking argument. It's a good analogy but it's not an argument. If you're pointing to a cow and you're saying "the eyes are smeared with the liver" then yes, that's a problem. How does that equate to ACKS? Be specific. What part of ACKS is the eyes, what part of it is the liver, and how is one smeared across the other? Or anything. Fucking quote book and verse and tell me how it makes the game unplayable.
>>94426756>medieval period extended all the way to the rise of the Roman empire,Anon you are retarded. You are an actual fucking moron>despite that still being largely held within the Early Medieval period and thus still Medieval."Anon you are retarded. The demographics, social configuration and commerce of the Late Empire and the Early Middle Ages has more in common with antiquity than with the Crusades and the high/late medieval fare of AD&D. That's what ACKS wants to simulate.I am baffled at your idiocy.
>>94426824Okay, that's an actual argument. I would agree actually. I know that environmentally, you get wine more to the south and beer more to the north. If you look at a map of Europe, you can clearly divide it into the beer people and the wine people. As far is it being disconnected from grain and vegetables, I would say that probably we're talking foodstuff over stuff you would use to turn into beer/wine. So I agree, the chart isn't perfect and ideally you would separate grain and fruits into their own categories and then have beer and wine within one half-step of grain/wine. His argument is that you don't need the chart whatsoever. And my argument is that my players worry about shit like that. They have 20 loads of grain and veggies. Where do they take it? The chart helps me (and them) answer that "it would make sense to take grain to an established city in the desert."
>>94426798>a single sourceThe fun part of the middle ages is that it's not a simple and clean topic with only a single date or even definition, and more importantly didn't even occur or last all at the same time in all the same places. Some scholars, particularly older ones, have the starting date as the "collapse" of the Western Roman Empire, but even that date is dubious because the classical consensus on what that date was has been routinely challenged.More importantly, modern scholarship has the Middle Ages separated into three relatively distinct parts, with the Early, Middle, and Late Medieval, with the Middle and Late being relatively well-defined but the Early Medieval extending and contracting dramatically with different scholars using different criteria, ranging from technological to political to cultural definitions, with Historians with different focuses heavily debating the topic. As more archeological discoveries uncover how much more advanced ancient people were earlier than many classic Historians believed, the Early Medieval period's beginning has been repeatedly challenged and routinely debated.>>94426810>Dark AgeDoes someone else want to jump in and explain why this post is the dumbest post in a thread filled with stupid posts?
>>94426905Okay fantastic. The point is, ACKS has more in common with very very early medieval ages, and even the classic decadent period of the Roman Empire moreso than the typical high middle ages of most D&D.
>>94426918And yet the whole medieval discussion started after a bunch of anons got triggered at someone calling ACKS "pseudo medieval">Nooo it's not pseudo medieval, it's pseudo early medievalIdiot ACKS fags
>>94426824Know what, fair enough, I'll take it on.First of all though, he doesn't explain why it's stupid, he just goes 'Muh weeds' - Which is why I ignored it, he said 'It's stupid' without giving a reason why and that means I can just reply 'No, you're stupid, fuck off' far as I'm concerned.With that said; food is a very different resource to alcohol in terms of its function, scanning across, food becomes more vital in older cities and is less needed in ones where it can be easily produced.Ale is necessary early in the life of a town or when it's difficult to get both grains and water in large quantities, which makes sense. Once its set up, people are likely to prefer local brews they know are safe over long distance transported beer from god knows where, which justifies need tapering off in the middle.Same for wine/spirits, with the minor adjustment of 'easier to get in the highlands'The most important thing though is - this is one chart that deals with 3 factors for demand for a product, that being age of the city, climate/water and elevation.I'm confident enough to bet my asshole that there are other charts out there containing further break downs to the equivalent of 'Nobles tend to prefer wine over ale since they're fancy, if you've got a noble district or powerful court increase demand by X', 'Workmen love them some brewskies, if the area runs off mining/labour camps then increase demand for beer by Y'Just as importantly, players can select professions, for example, winemaker is a profession and means they could actually make wine, at which point they're more likely to be interested in places that buy wine over beer aren't they (and vice versa)? Which means the difference is now important between the two.It's cherrypicking, plain and simple. Taking a single aspect of a system and going 'See, by itself this makes no sense! Ignore further context!'
>>94426918> ACKS has more in common with very very early medieval agesAh, so it's pseudo-medieval, Got it. Looks like >>94426592 was entirely right, and the ACKShills who threw a fit are stupid bitches.Also, despite the claims that it has "more in common" with the early medieval ages, it has many of the most obvious features of the Late Middle Ages, including goods like Coffee and technology like books and advanced metallurgy, in no small part because it was built on the back of a system that didn't try to pin itself to a specific medieval period, or if it did, it did a shit job at it.
>>94426943>be specific>but if you're specific, it's cherry pickingFor fuck's sake.
>>94426900Yeah, I'm not sure how much it supports his overall point. If I were to attempt to steelman, it would tie into his statements here >>94426444about how a system that touts itself as having a lot of tables for the economy should have those tables be accurate. Which is at odds with some of his earlier points about tables as a whole, but it is still a specific point he made that got dismissed. So I'm not really surprised when his replies since then have refused to give specific examples.
>>94426976>Which is at odds with some of his earlier points about tables as a whole,How?
That pic is from D&D 3.5, FYI
>>94426976Honestly, I overlooked it in the context of his other retardation. >>94426952Yes? It's not saying it's a Classical Adventure System or whatever. It's obviously still a medieval-ish fantasy RPG, but the economic system chosen was based more on Classical principles than Medieval ones. >>94426818Where's your argument, you insufferable cunt?
>>94426918I wouldn't even give him that frankly. The Auran empire is openly and unapologetically connected to 432-453 in terms of time period by the inclusion of 'I can't believe he isn't Attila the Hun', which is firmly before what most would consider 'Pseudo-medieval' ages.He's playing faggots word games by pretending that no one knows the difference between 'Romans, philosophers, gladiatorial arenas, Caesar, Imperium' and 'Knights, Kings, Castles, not a Legionary to be seen, dragons and shit' as if they're not two clearly defined and separate historic genres.That's the equivalent of going 'Oh, you want to run a game about cowboys in the wild west? Well I'll have you know that bootlegging and Samurai were around during that time so I'm going to play Riyuji 'Gespatcho' Shinatawabe, Samurai Hitman of the Chicago goonsquads. Lmao.'He knows what he's doing and if he had any self-respect he wouldn't be trying it on. So let's not enable him by pretending he actually believes his argument.
>>94426983Hmm, point taken. Looking back at >>94426205he does only call the chart pointless in the context of not playing 'Taxes and Tariffs'. Though ACKS is apparently exactly that sort of game, so I suppose it's less of a complaint about the chart itself, and more about how it lacks accuracy and simplicity. Which I'd say are two competing objectives, where a more accurate table is going to need more complexity as a matter of course.
>>94424967So you promote ACKS for politics, not for its content.Interesting.
>>94426983don't be a disingenuous cunt>>94424701>completely worthless charts and tableJust because something doesn't model the real world accurately doesn't make it completely worthless. Also if it's internally consistent within the context of the system, then it can still serve as an adequate model, just maybe not one I would use in the real world.
>>94427015>' as if they're not two clearly defined and separate historic genres.Because they're clearly not and weren't. They were blended and blurred even in reality, and you can't for the life of you pretend that ACKS doesn't included "Knights, Kings, Castles,etc." or that other medieval fantasy games don't include "pesudo-Romans, philosophers, gladiatorial arenas, etc."Are you stupid? A fucking retard even?
>>94426960So that's what you took out of that post is it? Nothing about me giving you the bit of the table he left out? Or how you take those bonuses/penalties and then apply further bonuses/penalties at random to represent local resources (representing things like, oh, I don't know, the water in the area being great for making really solid beer but the farmland not being great for grain, which'd be a perfect justification for high grain demand, low beer demand).>>94427047>There's exactly zero difference between 'Jason and the Argonaughts' vs 'King Arthur', they're the exact same settingAh fuck off, cunt.
>>94427022everyone who promotes ACKS does, otherwise they'd just be playing 1e + or or multiple setting/tables/worldbuilding supplements.
>>94427074No, because 1E doesn't let me know where to take my load of furs for a greater profit.
>>94426937Why are you so dishonest? The discussion started because a retard with no knowledge about ACKS said that it evokes the same pseudo-medieval fare as AD&D, which is far more reminiscent of the crusades and the High/Late Middle Ages.Retard
why the hell are you guys still autism'ing about the "pseudo medieval" comment?"standard medieval fantasy" these days even includes fucking elves and dwarves, and 1e was the whole kitchen sink, especially the monsters.Sperging so much about this only proves that ACKS fags are insufferable autists.
>>94427027A chart not worth the time it takes to roll on it is worse than worthless, just like a hammer that costs $30 to make but you can only sell it for $10 is worse than worthless. If a chart provides you with ideas and results worse than what you could make up within seconds on your own, even including the effort involved in making your own charts as neccesary, it's absolute shit. If you look at ACKS and think "oh this is helpful" rather than "what a fucking retard", you might actually be retarded.
>>94427091>Why are you so dishonestBecause if they were honest about why they don't like ACKS the conversation would go>A reddit mod told me ACKS is evil>Fuck off retardYou can actually go back in the archives and see that conversation happen a few times before they started making excuses to hide behind on why 'No-no, it's not that ACKS is the Chud game and my discord friends told me it's doubleplusungood, it's that, er, it's got too much content? Yeah, that'll do.'
>we are reaching the point where retards argue that there's no difference between the Crusades and the Battle of the Catalaunian Fields.
>>94427067I'm going to point you to >>94426658 and watch you cry.
>>94427104You keep saying it's worthless but you're a fucking idiot. I'm gonna reddit space for you since you're apparently incapable of understanding it otherwise:If you have a tool within your system that is INTERNALLY CONSISTENT WITHIN THE SYSTEM then it's worthwhile because it's going to produce CONSISTENT results regardless of the context that you're using it, so long as you're using the same SYSTEM.Because even if the chart isn't a perfect 1-to-1 with the real world, it doesn't matter, because we're not modeling the real world, we're modeling the world of ACKS, where if a settlement is in the desert, we're always going to get a +1 demand modifier to grain and vegetables, and a -1/2 for coffee. Which means that now the players and the GM know this for a fact and can now determine that these bags worth of coffee shouldn't go to a desert town, but instead to a taiga or tundra settlement. How are you not getting this?
>>94427099Because the retards tried to argue that ACKS is unnecesary for being the same "pseudo-medieval" setting as D&D, something blatanly untrue that proves that they haven't actually read ACKS.
>>94427111What about it? I'm looking at it and not crying.
>>94427111In turn I'm going to post art from the actual Auran empire setting and remind you that your Neo-vagina probably needs dilating this time of night.I'm sure being corrected won't make you cry, because you've already let loose all your salty bitch tears across this thread, besides you've got more than enough to cry about already in your life.
>>94427088The GM who made the setting should know that.
>>94427067>So that's what you took out of that post is it?I mean, that's exactly the problem. You're a piece of shit who thinks he can control the argument by just being as much of a piece of shit as possible, and not have anyone call them out on it.You cry about the critques not being specific enough in order to try to drag people down into the weeds of debating a shitty system all while trying to dismiss them, and then when they do get specific you complain about them cherrypicking.Holy fuck you are the dumbest piece of trash if you actually think anyone is supposed to treat you as anything other than the dumbest piece of trash. Whenever you actually get what you ask for and are thoroughly beaten, you immediately try to shift gears and think people are just going to immediately forget what just happened.What are you going to do now? What mental gymnastics will you perform to preserve your fragile ego and defend your pet system?
>>94427149Okay but presumably there's more than one town in his world yeah? I have 100 lbs. Where do I take it for the most profit? Yes the GM can make it up on the spot and it'll probably be fine, but what about the knock-on effects? What if we get another load of coffee later on and then we come back and now they're not buying coffee. Why? Can we take it somewhere else? Can we grow our own coffee? Etc.
>>94427139Advance metallurgy and armor and weapon designs from the late medieval ages, front and center on the cover of the book someone is claiming is from a setting no one could compare with the style and trappings of King Arthur.
>>94427152They're not being specific you fucking retard. We're asking you to point to where the system is bad and engage with it. That's not called "getting into the weeds" that's called having a fucking argument.
>>94427152>Can remain civil for exactly 1 post at most before chimping the fuck out againGlad we can admit that your attempts to engage in 'civil conversation' are as hollow as your potato sack of a soul. Which makes any attempt at a gotcha on your part come across as the works of a wanker trying it on.For anyone else reading this, just to be clear, the conversation has gone as follows>I'm a concerned 3rd party, uwu, I just want to say that no one really engages with the points made by this handsome, charming, unknown anon>Alright, I'll take you seriously on this one; which points>Well this one>Oh, here's why that's bullshit, here's why he's wrong and here's the additional context he left out from the exact same page, which is cherry picking.>Wow, accusations of cherry picking! That's so stupid>Motherfucker it's on the exact same pag->SHUT UP CHUD, I'M RIGHT, YOU'RE WRONGYou're a cunt and I'm glad you admitted it without even realizing you're doing so.
>>94427168Okay, cool. Magic exists and dwarven metalsmiths are more advanced than human ones. Besides, plate armor could've existed in Roman times, so I'm not bothered by it at all. It also doesn't matter that potatoes exist. Or coffee. Or the guy wearing his sword on his back. Why should it? So long as it's internally consistent, I'm fine with it.
>>94427138>something blatanly untrue that proves that they haven't actually read ACKS.or more like it proves they did, since ACKS often does reference real history and the references are all over different eras and places in history, just like with 1e.Then again I doubt many ACKS shills read the book either, since they treat it more as an anti "wokes" symbol.
>>94427168>This random piece of art from one of the supplemental books isn't consistent with the main setting of the game, that proves I'm right, checkmate atheistsWhy are you like this? What makes a person behave the way you do? I want to know so I can avoid it.
>>94427188Anon ACKS itself affirms that the economics and demographics of its setting are far more suited and in fact simulate classical antiquity and early middle ages than the Crusades or the HYW. The creator itself says that constantly, and in DOW most examples are about Alexander the Great.You are a retard.
>>94427188I mean yeah, in some of the supplementary material. Like the guy wrote "The Econometrics of Aurepos" to show how he created his economy. And most of it references the Classical period. Pic related (from AXIOMS 3, which went into making the Econometrics).
>>94427173This is the mental gymnastics you went for? Gross.All you're doing is hoping people read your biased version of events, as opposed to just looking up and seeing the thread as it actually is and realizing "Oh fuck, this ACKShill really is absolutely shameless."You're really a shameless shit, and there really is no bottom to how low you're willing to go in trying to defend your pet system.
>>94427195>random artYou put random art on covers these days?>The creator itself says that constantly, The creator is absolutely retarded and has a sub-wikipedia understanding of History. He has a sub-wikipedia understanding of just about everything, really, which is why his game appeals to the kind of retards who say things like "Dark Ages" without irony.
>>94427188>It has now reached the point where they're projecting their not reading of the subject matter onto everyone elseYou've got nothing have you.
>>94427250The ACKSfags haven't even seen the covers of their own books.
>Those desperate attempts to claw back from having been completely rode around the corral by several different people by this pointI'd just like anyone reading this thread in the future, who has been sent back here via the archives to be reminded of it because this 'person' has been posting in a thread you're in to know thisNo, it's not you, you're not stupid, and you're not being uncharitable in your reading of them, you're not wrongThey're disingenuous, they're arrogant, they're a complete wart and they're wrong on all accounts, without exception, as proven above.They are an entire short bus convoy and the only reason they hold the beliefs they do isn't because they came to dislike ACKS after experiencing it.It's because they're a cunt who got told to dislike it by reddit.Fuck 'em. Go back to the thread you came from and bully the shit out of them some more, they deserve it, from here unto eternity.
>>94427281>the ACKShill has yet another meltdownlolYour game is shit and you're a retard for defending it. Thread makes that clear.
>>94427295>Acknowledging you're a retard is having a meltdown>Pretending you made even a single cogent point in this entire thread, let alone 'won' itBabbies first time being addicted to cope is it?
>>94427243>Creator says and explains in the books how the economics and demographics of the setting mimic late-antiquity/early-medieval states.>The setting is aesthetically late-antiquity/early-medieval>The art in the new edition is all late-antiquity/early-medieval. The economy and the demographics also the exact same.>NO IT ISN'T!!! IT'S ALL D&D PSEUDO-MEDIEVAL BECAUSE OF PLATE ARMOR!!!!Retard.
>ACKS is early medieval / before medieval times!>1e is medieval!AD&D and OD&D if anything were more like Hyborian age: mix of shit from all over to evoke a certain feeling and immersion, but without much in the way actual medieval times, although some of the technology and supposed meritocracy make it seem more like late medieval/early modern.Either way, it's way more wishy washy than some of these comments imply, and that's probably part of what makes it adaptable to vastly different settings.ACKS settings seem like they'd always be samey other than superficial traits, which is probably easier for DMs who don't want to come up with their own settings since samey settings mean they can use the same tools over and over (such as these economics tables).But that'd also make it bad for someone who actually wants to create a setting, yet again I doubt anyone creative would be drawn to ACKS, whose main draw is being as vanilla as possible.
>>94427281Whoa everyone, look at what fell out of this fag's loose asshole!The reason ACKS sucks is because it's a bad game, for all the reasons outlined already, as well as substantiated by details. Even its fans admit that its tedious, cumbersome, and slow, and they're underselling just how poorly designed it is in all those regards.It's a system made by someone who doesn't understand the basics of building systems. You don't just make a heartbreaker and then keep slapping subsystems on top and call it a day. That's how you end up with a bloated, awful mess that is antithetical to all the principles of a well-designed game.You can find better games for free, better and far more intelligent world building sources as well, and there's nothing exceptional or even interesting about the game beyond how much of a chore it is to run and play.
>>94427311All your words, returned to you.
>>94427322>>NO IT ISN'T!!! IT'S ALL D&D PSEUDO-MEDIEVAL BECAUSE OF PLATE ARMOR!!!!D&D also had very obviously non medieval settings. Not sure why you autists are STILL fixating over this irrelevant shit.
>>94427344The point of that one dude above was that ACKS was unnecesary because typical D&D evokes the exact same type of setting. That's a lie. Then he tried to argue based on the cover of DOW despite most examples in that book coming from classical antiquity.
>>94427338>If I repeat my early assertions, all of which the anons here already adressed multiple times, while being vague and acting smug despite failing to provide a single precise example of why ACKS is umplayable, I'll win.Pathetic.
>>94427338>You can find better games for free, better and far more intelligent world building sources as wellI'm sure you're going to name a few any minute, given how you've avoided that question any time it's been asked of you for the entire thread.Go on, put your balls on the table and give us the hammer, fucker.
>>94427362autism speaks indeed
>>94427384What really impresses me is the fact he thinks if he steals other peoples insults and echoes them back at them that's somehow winning, rather than just admitting the other persons insults are better and likely got to them.He's a really special boy.
>>94427362You're arguing with multiple people, and the guy who called it pseudo-medieval was entirely correct.What you hoped to do was discredit him with a Gotcha of "AH HA! ACKS is acktchually not a pseudo-medieval mix of antiquity and the middle ages, it's creator said it's more based on late antiquity... despite it also having plenty of stuff from the late middle ages and is functionally identical to the mismash of vague time periods that forms AD&D."You're quite the piece of shit.
>>94427412no, ACKS has some extra autism which means it's completely differentACKS shills are the master race, you're a tranny or something like that lmao
>>94427384>a single precise example of why ACKS is umplayableThat's where you're dragging the goal post to?No one ever said it was unplayable. It's a tedious, boring mess of a system that's inferior to dozens of games in the category it falls into, but it's certainly playable if you're a retarded autistic child.As for you addressing my assertions, aside from your meltdowns, you really haven't done much beyond admit to everyone that yes, the game is a tedious slog of awkward and idiotic subsystems, but you enjoy that slog.
>>94427412>functionally identical to the mismash of vague time periods that forms AD&D.You are acting like such a lying piece of shit. Tell me where's the demographic and economic breakdown in AD&D that mimics late antiquity. Where's the default, in-core setting openly based on late antiquity. Tell me where's the mass battle system designed to run massive, mostly antiquity-sized armies.Absolute retard.
>>94427405>steals other peoples insultsLol, no one wants to steal >>94424967's "tight asshole" insult.People are making fun of your loose assholes because of how dumb that insult was.
>>94427464>He doesn't even get what the insult isJesus Christ. That's a whole new level of stupid.Let me explain it to you in tiny little baby words since you're retarded He's saying you tense up around anyone who isn't a discordite leftoid like you. It's not 'Boy you sure have a nice tight asshole', it's 'Boy, you sure are intolerant of anyone who is even slightly less pure than you, you fucking lunatic.'
>>94427444And we openly adressed that the "clunky" slog of subsystems isn't only part mostly of setting creation rather than actual play, isn't just useful and relevant as demonstrated by that anon's player table, but also made you look like an idiot by arguing that a perfectly serviciable table in AD&D with information brokers and plot hooks is useless. This is absolutely pathetic.
>>94427444>Attempting to dodge to 'Oh, it's a tedious slog, everyone agreed it was'The voices in your head are talking to you again are they? Everyone agreed that not every system needs to be applied every time and that's where DM discretion comes in, retard-kun.
>>94427444Also, you still utterly refuse to provide any positive example of games "in that same category".Maybe because you don't actually play games.
>>94427488Sorry, but whatever just dropped out of your loose asshole was too boring and tedious for me. You're too used to talking with people who play ACKS.
>>94427508>The most pathetic attempt to save faceBless.
>>94427338My brother you haven't substantiated a SINGLE claim. Literally none. I called you out:>>94427209>>94427133>>94426818>>94426347and here >>94426178You haven't responded to a single one with an actual argument that calls on the ACKS book. Your only argument was that the "environmental table for supply/demand" isn't 100% realistic (which I granted you), but you're the one claiming that charts are bad AND you can't seem to grasp that a chart that isn't 1-to-1 with the real world but IS internally consistent is a chart that can create verisimilitude in your game. But more to the point, it's abundantly clear that you haven't read any of it AND you don't play RPGs at all because you can't name a single system that does what ACKS purports to do, but better.
>>94427503He seems to literally think that you will calculate the bread price in Homlet Town while opening a dungeon door.
>>94427444I mean, a screenshot of my players asking me questions about it over the course of two years disproves you: >>94426178
>>94427491>we agreed there's awful, tedious, and poorly designed parts of the gameThank you. >bu-No, we're basically done here. You going on about how important it is to waste people's time and how "serviceable" is the highwater mark of what makes a good inclusion in a system is really just a bonus. You have incredibly low standards, and that's been exactly my point.
>>94427538>this screenshot of losers having the most boring, tedious discussion ever disproves that only autistic retards like this systemI didn't think I'd actually get to the point of pitying you, but here we are.
>>94427546No one agreed to that, retard. Everyone consistently points out how tables are contextual and how they are actually useful and necessary due the expectations and the progression of the game. You are arguing that basic economics and logistics are a waste of time in a game about logistics with a fucking merchant class. Absolutely baffling. And that you seem to ignore well formulated posts like >>94427521 is even. You are acting like a fucking coward.
>>94427522I'm going to give a practical example actually of how these charts can be used.>Group is doing some exploration while bringing a bunch of survivors of abandoning a town to another nearby town they're allied with>Doing pick up on the hunting/fishing camps that were surrounding the town>Finds one where the fishing is obscenely good>Fills their entire hold with fresh fish over the course of 2-3 days>Thanks to knowing exactly how much a passenger and their livelyhood weighs, I can calculate how much room they have left for fish in their small armada>They know the exact value of the fish>Decide it isn't enough>When they arrive pay their allies some barter in the form of gemstones to use all their smokers for a few days to smoke the fish>Rule it counts as increasing the value by 2 steps>They're pleased as punch as they then find the nearest town that needs food and go off to sell it>Make about 10k cash from taking advantage of an opportunity that came up by chance>Blow it all on buying slave warriors/hiring warriors from the town to act as mercenaries for a month so they can enact a coup on another nearby town at the behest of an NPC merchant who has agreed to swear loyalty to them if they put them in chargeOne thing in ACKS very easily rolls into the next, it's remarkable how smoothly things move between systems.>>94427538I once posted images of my groups VTT and their reaction was 'Wow, they're giving out mock ups to shills now'These people will never, ever admit they're wrong.
>>94427520>loose asshole thinks he can talk shitSpewing shit isn't the same thing.
>>94427596>Even acknowledges in his post >>94427464 that it's two different people>Soon as they start disagreeing with him they magically become the same person
>>94427591I want you to know that what you posted is one of the most boring wastes of time I've ever heard people suffer through.Other groups are out there slaying dragons and solving sphinx riddles, and this group is calculating fish storage.
>>94427570>THE GAME ABOUT LOGISTICS AND COLONIZATION SHOULDN'T HAVE MECHANICS FOR IT!!!!>PEOPLE SHOULDN'T TALK ABOUT IT EITHER!!! THEY SHOULD JUST PLAY OSE AND MOTHER-MAY-I THE WORLD!!!Lol. Lmao, even.
>>94427610ACKSfags are loose assholes with loose assholes. Don't imagine you need to be treated like separate people.
>>94427617>Wow, you're out there building armies and conquering cities! That's so boring when you could be slaying the same fucking dragon on repeat every session on repeat>Every game should be a theme park where players move from one set piece to another and afterwards get a snow cone as a reward for being such big, brave heroesThe fact you think my game is boring doesn't matter a whit to me, my players enjoy it and I think you're a shit, so why would I care about your 'opinions'?
>>94427617>NO, YOU SHOULDN'T BECOME WEALTHY VIA COMMERCE, COLONIZE NEW LANDS AND LEAD ARMIES AND KINGDOMS INTO BATTLE!!!>DUNGEON DELVING ONLY!!!
>>94427617>Is-is that a game that doesn't cater to me and my bing-bang-wahoo tastes for immediate gratification and spectacle?!>SAVE ME WIZARDS OF THE COAST, HEEEEEEEEEELP
>>94427622>hey guys, what the most interesting part of logistics and colonization?!>BEAN COUNTING!!! Fucking lol.
>>94427661It's a good thing that ACKS has a very detailed army and campaign system designed to work with its economics and allow for conquest and expansion then, right?
>>94427642Yeah! Leading armies and Kingdoms into Bat->hey guys, how much did we invest in the honey making venture>I'm not sure, let me check my spreadsheet>don't forget to include the tax rate and that its different because we hired people from a different provinceYEAAAAAAAHHHHHH!
>>94427661>Wow your players are interested in the world and how it works beyond the point of their sword? They engage with it in ways that aren't stabbing the next goblin then picking up their reward and fucking off out of town...>That's so lameHickmann and its consequences have been a disaster for the roleplaying hobby.
>>94427546Okay, so go ahead. Let's assume you're correct and having >awful, tedious, and poorly designed parts of the gamemakes the entire game bad. What's a good alternative? I want to play a game like the one that my players enjoy, where the first quest they did was to raid a giant beehive for honey so that they can jumpstart their economy and earning potential (and learned about market absorption, so they had to wander between several markets to offload their honey). What game can I do this in?>>94427570Okay, then why don't you post a screenshot of your players playing your game and enjoying themselves? You DO have friends that play TTRPGs with you, don't you anon? >>94427617My brother in Scientology, you can slay dragons and solve riddles in ACKS too! Page 163 core and Lairs and Monsters page 178. But other games don't let you calculate fish economics! The GM has to approximate and they might be bad at it, which would cause problems with verisimilitude.
>>94427682>it's a good thing that we can waste everyone's time playing an idiots poorly made and easily broken version of "baby's first try at making a half-assed economy game"
>>94427715>Still not giving any alternativesCoward.
>>94427715It works on my machine. Have you considered you just have terminal autism and nobody to play games with?
>>94427687Lmao, you are describing it as if having a detailed economic system alongside a detailed military and campaign system is somehow bad or wrong.The thing about ACKS is that you have both, and the systems behind make sense within the universe in a way that creates a living world.
>>94427737>it's fine because i'm stupid and boringGood for you I guess. Good luck with your honey harvest and your loose asshole.
>>94427740Yeah but that's bad because reasons, it's clunky despite giving no examples of that being the case and there's clear, obvious alternatives which I won't name.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKMLQ_RgJ4A
>>94427715>Wasting everyone's time>When you can not engage with that part of the game>When people actually enjoy engaging with that part of the game, those interested that isAnon you just can't accept that people play fantasy games for more than hacking and slashing dungeons.
>>94418855Pathfinder really is the greatest woke fall from grace that ever existed. Remember that they created things like this:https://aonprd.com/DeityDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Folca
>>94427764>Hey. look at what I forced my group to care about! Storing fish!That's genuinely sad.
>>94427749Not the same guy. Can you stop thinking about my asshole? I know you're a faggot. I also like the fact that when we called you out on not actually reading the system and not being able to point to a single flaw, you immediately devolved to "ur having fun wrong."So basically, I accept your concession.
>They've now reached the 'Yes people are having fun, but not in the right way. I, the fun finder general, have decided that they are incorrect and are not having real fun' stage of argumentation/v/ is a few boards over.
>>94427795I'm not the guy storing fish.
>>94427749>How dare you have fun playing with the economy in this game about, among other things, economy??!!? >No, play like my group only!!! Kill dragons and orcs all day!!!!>What? You can do both?!>W-well... You are boring!!!!
>>94427796>game is boring and tedious>BUT THAT"S A GOOD THINGWhatever hold ACKS has on you, I actually have started to feel sorry for you.
>>94427815You're calculating fish storage.
>>94427794>"Forced">Yes, I know more about your group than you!!! They are actually intimidated over the internet and tied to chairs so they don't leave the table and play economics!!!>They seem proactive?>All forced!!!
>>94427829>How dare you have enterprises and care about fish storage while also raiding dungeons and becoming wealthy???>Anything I don't get is boring and bad!!! Bad fun!!!
>>94427820>If I keep saying it, it'll be true>>94427829>Wow, your group decided to do something and there were actually rules for it, that's so lameMy group also has a harem of Troglodyte broodwives that they take into combat with them which they won in battle with a Troglodyte clan.They're going to wait until the children grow up and start a clan of their own who'll become part of their army going forward.But hey, I'm sure that's more boring than slaying the 34th dragon of the week.God you're such a pathetic creature.
>>94427829Are you mad that people are having fun with fish storage calculations?
>>94427863>People are having more fun calculating fish storage than I've had in my entire life and I can't stand ithttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZOXAHZbs6U
>>94427837I know that of all the things you could have gotten your group to care about, you thought fish storage was a big deal.It's like you even understand that you wasted 9/10s of a post with incredibly boring shit all just to say "We made 10k with fish."
>>94427854>Troglodyte broodwivesAnon that's just nasty, those things stink. Why not a elven harem like normal decent adventures?
>>94427829Yep and I'm having a blast.btw>>94427711respond? Do you have players of your own? Do you play games? Do you have a system that does this better?
>>94427854>God you're such a pathetic creature.I'm not the one with an imaginary harem of troglodytes.
>>94427877I am not fishbro, I am just making fun of you because you seem so baffled at people having fun in different ways.
>>94427877>Boring>Entire point is that it came out of random, procedural generation, which is what you said was boring>>94427891Funnily enough I've told the story before, let me see if I can find it in the archivehttps://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/93954915/#93960406People shit and seethed about me saying something positive about ACKS then as well mind you.
>>94427901>having fun calculating fish storageI think I have the right to be baffled.
>>94427894This has to be the most pathetic attempt at an argument so far. >Well, but your games are imaginary!!! Unlike me, killing dragons with dice for real!!!
>>94427903>>Entire point is that it came out of random, procedural generation, which is what you said was boringI mean, yeah. It was.
>>94427916I'm not knocking on it just because it's imaginary, I'm knocking on it because it's an imaginary harem of troglodytes.
>>94427917Well, I liked it.Come on buddy! Post a picture of your players talking about your game! Or a game that does what ACKS does but better!
>>94427924I have seen worse, really. But yeah I guess a harem of elves or scantily clad barbarian redheads would've been better.
>>94427903>We consider that, explain that they're a bit scrawny to devour and that none of us are going to reveal we're secret scalies by going 'Fuck yeah, hit me with that Troglodussy', but don't worry we'll take them with us anyway when we leave, which results in the chieftain going 'Alright, weird to turn down a free meal but you do you'Lel, he saw you coming over a month ago.
>>94427929I'm actually tempted to post some stuff, but looking through the text conversations has it all quite personal and not really the kind of stuff I'd share over the internet.Most of the stuff involves Homebrew systems as well, with lengthy debates about various aspects of them. I don't know what to tell you, because most of the discussion about the game itself happens during the game, since we play games that actually let us play them during them.
>>94427901might as well play FATALthe other thread made it seem fun, with the whole rolling high AC so the guy actually had a loose ass, yet he was super prudish about sex.he was also a manlet and liked dwarves more than other humans normally did lel
>>94428025Uh-huh, sure. And you have a gf in Canada right?
>>94428025While I am glad that you and your group had fun (and that we are ending the thread in a better note), I hope you realize that having a homebrew you can't share with others as an alternative to ACKS isn't a strong argument.
>>94428405There is no group. There is no homebrew.
>>94415189Just play Shadow of the Demon Lord>ACKS is fun! You can have fun calculating fish storage.Lmao at this thread.
>>94429302Yep. It is fun. Cry about it.
>>94429544But it's the wrong kind of fun. Waaaaaa....
>>94424701>Not actually all that fun to playSkill issue
