>>94632383
This is a consequence of capeshit/anime brain rot wanting everything to be badass hour+ long duels. Nerds treat magic like muscles, rather than external phenomena to be taken advantage of. It’s gotten bad.

Physics also moves a lot slower to the point where a martial is able to dodge—or even deflect—fucking bullets, lightning, etc, when that’s just impossible. Physics has to be raped in order for the martials to survive it/magic. Because it’s a game.

>>94632405
>Physics also moves a lot slower to the point where a martial is able to dodge—or even deflect—fucking bullets, lightning, etc, when that’s just impossible. Physics has to be raped in order for the martials to survive it/magic. Because it’s a game.
So martials are the reason why wizards can’t have fun? Because they will whine and bitch if things aren’t easier for them? Lightning HAS to move slower enough so they can see it coming? Lmao.

>>94632405
They also want everything to be a lot less lethal. “Just because you shot me in the face doesn’t mean I’m dead. I have 5 hit points left”. “Your brain literally fell out the back side of your skull”. “So?”.

>>94632421
Opposite is true as well. Martial shoots an arrow at a wizard and they'll throw a fit if they can't throw up an everything-proof shield as a reaction of have 25 different protection spells running 24/7.
Their bathrobe wearing ass would die to a well-placed arrow, so magic HAS to function in a certain way that makes it harder to kill people.

>>94632440
>Martial shoots an arrow at a wizard and they'll throw a fit if they can't throw up an everything-proof shield as a reaction of have 25 different protection spells running 24/7.
But that’s not an issue. That means the wizard is an idiot for not thinking ahead. If you can’t react fast enough for something then you prepare for it in advance. Spells are absolutely contingencies.

>>94632440
>wizard is about being wise and smart and cunning
>punished for not being wise or smart or cunning
That’s just expected. You can’t react to a bullet so wizards resort to passive magic.

>>94632383
>Why would a caster survive a single sword swing to the neck?
Because he just used a spell so powerful or effective that it removed combat altogether, so the sword swing never made it to his neck.

>>94632489
Okay but what if the wizard didn’t?

This is why magic should be brutal. It is not fucking around. Some witch doing a death ritual in her basement to take out some rival politician half way across the world would be 100x more terrifying than any sniper could ever hope to be. Magic is causing people to drop dead randomly, as though it were a “heart attack”. Magic is causing someone’s head to explode.

Only magic should be able to defend you from magic, and this is why people went to witch doctors and priests, etc.

>>94632446
>>94632484
See? Right on cue. Upon learning that a wizard died to an arrow, the reaction is to suggest that the wizard was a fool for not having dozens of spells to make him arrow-proof cast in advance, because people have trouble grasping the idea of a setting where those spells don't exist.

>>94632526
Yeah I don’t know why a wizard would prefer to use a [Slow Ass Fireball] than a [Spontaneous Fucking Combustion, Holy Shit], when the former can be avoided in theory, while the latter just cannot. It may as well happen from inside the body. Why does magic have to happen from the hands or fingers or some stick? Often a wand was just a directing symbol in ritual, not a literal exit for the magic.

>>94632530
Why wouldn’t the wizard look into his old scrying bowl, to avoid/remove the combat or encounter all together? Faggot.

>>94632530
>dozens of spells to make him arrow-proof
Why dozens? Why not just one spell? Stop exaggerating like a bitch.

>>94632552
>Why wouldn’t the wizard look into his old scrying bowl, to avoid/remove the combat or encounter all together?
The same reason the fighter wouldn't simply dodge the lightning bolt.
He can't, and you're whining and bitching because things aren't easier and magic doesn't solve all your problems.

>>94632562
>Why dozens? Why not just one spell?
Because 'those spells don't exist' means there isn't one. I know math is hard, but that's the way it works.

>>94632570
Magic isn’t supposed to be fair. Cope. Martials are supposed to be fair. Cope. Magic IS the out of the ordinary. Cope.

>>94632585
>Wizard throwing a fit over not being able to stop an arrow
Yep, that was the point I was making. Thanks for playing along.

>>94632570
I think he’s saying magic should be a lot more effective and ruthless and LETHAL than it typically appears in fantasy fiction; and all for the sake of the martial staying alive. Surviving a kinetic explosion spell that starts on YOUR spot is like arguing you can survive a literal grenade dropped inside your plate armor. You wouldn’t.

Just going by kinetic energy alone, you should not be able to survive a single combat spell.

>>94632611
Lethal-ness of physics as well as the speed of physics, yes. These things are always toned down so knights can take out dragons and crap.

>>94632611
I think you're getting mixed up in who you're replying to, but
>Just going by kinetic energy alone, you should not be able to survive a single combat spell.
Sure, just like how surviving an arrow to the chest or a warhammer to the skull isn't survivable. But somehow casters are surviving through the first volley of arrows from a group of goblins or bandits in the same way martials are shrugging off fireballs.

Wasn't that the point OP was making with the thread? That combat should be super lethal and whoever acts first should win? That seems like a pretty valid way to handle it.

>>94632646
>Sure, just like how surviving an arrow to the chest or a warhammer to the skull isn't survivable
Yes. Exactly as OP said. Why should a caster survive a sword swing to the face? They shouldn’t. Why should a martial be able to survive maximum gore? They just shouldn’t. Whoever gets to the other first wins, and often it’s the caster who is the one to spy/pry/scry first. If the caster isn’t prepared, then they just fucking did, like anyone else.

>>94632646
>But somehow casters are surviving through the first volley of arrows from a group of goblins or bandits in the same way martials are shrugging off fireballs.
One is meant to perform out of the ordinary stuff, as in, putting forth physics that can disregard kinetics. This will seem magical. The martial in comparison is one who is perfectly mundane and expected, so there’s more of a “how???” basis for the caster. A martial that can survive a bomb inside their armor is a caster just as much as they are a martial, by such a point. It’s out of the ordinary. Magic.

>>94632665
>If the caster isn't prepared
There is no preparing for that. They just fucking die like anyone else.
Handling it any other way is the same sort of concession that results in martials surviving fireballs. Coming up with excuses all for the sake of a character staying alive.

>>94632679
>A martial that can survive a bomb inside their armor
That's not what we're discussing though. This is a thread about how martials can't survive a direct explosion in the same way that a spellcaster can't survive getting tagged by an arrow.
Whoever is quicker on the draw wins. Being an archmage doesn't change that.

>>94632727
I feel like you’re intentionally missing the point. You can also hypothetically move out of the way of a volley of arrows. You can’t move out of the way of a grenade tied to your chest.

>>94632727
>There is no preparing for that. They just fucking die like anyone else.
I mean, you can take cover. How do you take cover from a grenade teleported into your head? Christ, anon. There are limits to surviving bullshittery.

You should not be able to dodge lightning. You WILL get hit by the wizard’s lightning bolt. Whether you survive it or not is another matter. If the wizard knows how to make it 100% lethal (because it is 100% lethal if it doesn’t leave your body) then you die instantly, no saves.

Magic coming from the hands is also a lot retarded.

>>94632753
>you can take cover
Yeah, that'd be a good thing to do if you went first. But if a wizard didn't, he can't. So he dies.

>>94632744
>I feel like you’re intentionally missing the point.
The point that whoever goes first wins, and that anything else is just people whining and bitching that their character should actually totally survive, thus ruining the entire premise?

>>94632784
Even if arrows are fired first from far enough away, you can hypothetically dodge them. How do you dodge a heart attack? By doing cardio? Lol.

>>94632784
>The point that whoever goes first wins
It’s actually whoever *hits* first wins ;)

>>94632790
>>94632795
>whining and bitching that their character should actually totally survive
Didn't go first? Dead. This isn't some anime where your wizard has the ninja skills to avoid being turned into a pincushion.

>>94632795
This. A material actually has to GET to the caster, kek, while a caster is like a fat guy watching you on a camera in private.

>>94632421
I think anon meant that game designers fuck and with physics the wrong way in order to balance these archetypes, giving martials insane time sense (heightened reflexes) and making some spells dodge-able when they shouldn't be (all beams in dnd, especially the eldritch blast come to mind; during a 6s turn against an opponent not focused entirely on you there's no way in hell you don't hit them with a laser pointer spell, ie "touch" ranged attack)

>>94632805
You don’t need an anime physique to move out of the way a couple of feet =/

>>94632784
what the fuck are you saying you retard what does this even means. christ i haven't seen this level of nogames shittery in a while. why do you care about wizards and martials in the first place when in the system you are pretending to play whoever loses initiative dies instantly and nothing else matters

Sure, a martial dies instantly to a magic missile. Sure, a caster dies instantly to a decapitating sword swing.

But now you’ve STILL given the casters the advantage, since they have so many more ways to avoid something.

>>94632828
>But now you’ve STILL given the casters the advantage, since they have so many more ways to avoid something.
So like politicians? Are politicians broken?

>>94632838
If you're designing a game and the choices are between a politician and a minimum wage McDonalds worker then yes.

>>94632818
>whoever loses initiative dies instantly and nothing else matters
If you'll notice, that's what the OP was entirely about. Why did you post in the thread to complain about the premise?
>>94632815
To move a couple feet fast enough to dodge an arrow? Yeah you do. About as feasible as martials dodging lighting.

>>94632828
>since they have so many more ways to avoid something.
Nope. If they didn't go first, they die. Anything else is no different than whining and bitching about how a martial should totally survive a lightning bolt.

>>94632838
>are politicians broken
>a small group of old men making the world worse for everyone
>are politicians broken

>>94632847
>To move a couple feet fast enough to dodge an arrow
Depends on how far away they are
>About as feasible as martials dodging lighting
Lightning moves 10000x faster than a bullet

It’s clear you’re trolling btw

>>94632847
>Why did you post in the thread to complain about the premise?
because i can? retard.
now defend the premise or i win.

>>94632855
>Lightning moves 10000x faster than a bullet
Yeah, and nobody is dodging that, just like how a wizard isn't dodging bullets or arrows.
Wizard didn't go first? Wizard dies. You gonna keep whining and bitching about it?

>>94632885
A knight running to some old man with a pointy hat is still slower than any arrow. Humans can’t run faster than arrows. Lol.

>>94632891
Knight shoots the wizard with a crossbow. Wizard dies.
Try going first next time.

>>94632894
The wizard put up a forcefield like an hour ago.

>>94632436
This is why the OSR is best. Everything is a lot more lethal, no dumbass reactions etc. Though saving throws still happen

>>94632902
There's no such spell. Wizard went second? Dead wizard. Anything else is coping on par with a knight thinking his armor will protect him from a fireball.

See >>94632591

>>94632914
It’s clear you’re trolling btw

>>94632917
It's clear you're whining and bitching btw

>>94632914
Missile Ward. It lasts 12 Turns, which is 2 hours. Not that you'd know, 5efag

>>94632945
And before some fag says "that's not a real spell," it's called Protection from Normal Missiles in B/X. Missile Ward is what it's called in Dolmenwood. It's the exact same spell.

>>94632945
>Missile Ward.
Nope, doesn't exist under this premise in the same way that things like saving throws and hitpoints that would allow a martial character to survive a fireball don't exist.

Throwing a fit about how your wizard can't do everything shows real narrow-mindedness.
These wizards die when they don't go first because they don't have any spell that will save them from getting shot by an arrow. Suggesting otherwise is a childish tantrum about not getting your way.

>>94632983
Are you retarded? It's a spell in the book. Why wouldn't it exist? Does the magic user just not get any spells now?

>>94633001
>It's a spell in the book.
No it isn't, D&Dfag.
>Why wouldn't it exist?
Why would it exist? Nothing about the premise suggests that it would exist. In fact, it suggests the exact opposite.

>Does the magic user just not get any spells now?
Of course they get spells. They get spells that, if they go first, kill anyone with ease.
They don't get spells that help them not get killed if they don't go first, in the same way that the fighter doesn't get +3 dragonscale armor and 50 hitpoints to let him survive spontaneous combustion.

Are you retarded? Do you have trouble with simple hypotheticals? Can you not comprehend a setting where magic does some things, but not others?

>>94633015
The entire argument is about D&D. Only 5e, 4e, 3.5e, 3e and 2e players deserve to die, not actual D&D players

>>94633069
If you want wizards to have ways of not instantly dying to arrows and fighters can shrug off spells that would kill a normal person, feel free.
But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is explicitly about fights being quick and vicious and ending with whoever shoots first.

>>94632383
>>94632405
If Both classes are powered up like it was, idk, a fantasy world or something. Why wouldn't it turn into longer duels? Because if you say
>Magic would instakill anybody reallistically
thats retarded.
>Magic can't protect you from anything and has the same worth as a gun in combat.
that's retarded.
Both sides of the spectrum should be more than capable of superhuman feats, and thus would be able to last in a fight against one another. Plus interactions with powerful magic and superhuman brawn makes for much more interesting storytelling than "they died instantly"

>>94632383
The thing is, in most of these cases casters are allowed to have spells that can protect them against mundane combat but martials cannot be assumed to have purchased anti-magic wares ahead of time.

>>94633098
Oh look, another child.

>>94633098
>Plus interactions with powerful magic and superhuman brawn makes for much more interesting storytelling than "they died instantly"
No it’s childish. Real life is brutal. Quick. Stop pretending it isn’t.

>>94633121
>um actually I have a free everything-proof shield so you didn't really kill me
>and if you did it was a hologram!

>>94633069
Anon, 1e was the worst edition

>>94633161
Did the player purchase an item that allows them to DM for themselves and as such make up whatever? Usually these systems have a defined range of potions and armaments you can stick with in your considerations without silly homebrew.

>>94633142
>>94633150
>Guys, if my fantasy reality I made up for escapism isn't realistic, it's childish!
No.

>>94633182
>Did the player purchase an item that allows them to DM for themselves and as such make up whatever?
According to the people who play wizards on this board, that item is known as a 'spellbook'.
Just don't ask them what happens if there isn't a spell for the thing they want to do. They get really upset about that.

>>94633088
Go back to playing lord of the craft or whatever the fuck children's game you play, pedophile

>>94633204
Well, what you want is closer to a video game simulation than any sort of real life that could form naturally/unintelligently.

>>94633291
Yes. I wish to escape the bounds of our shitty reality and engage in something to satisfy my imagination.
>something that could form naturally/unintelligently
please tell me a setting that has all the following:
Magic
No Deities/Gods
Realistic Physics/Consequences
Relevant Martial/Mundane Fighters

>>94633173
B/X is the best edition

>>94633328
I’m just saying the kind of shit you want has to be enforced by “the powers that be”, the gods, aliens, etc, since it’s too intelligently (artistically) considerate.

It’s like religion. If any of it was real/“real”, it would be the product of some alien, as it’s far too artsy and, well, like a game, to ever occur naturally/unintelligently.

Nature would never form a perfect statue of Jesus, or Buddha, let alone an Apache attack helicopter.

>>94633361
Ok, so because the fantasy setting requires an author to justify anything instead of being plausibly able to perfectly fit within the bounds of human scientific knowledge (which is IMMENSELY flawed in many ways but thats another discussion entirely) the setting is bad?

I mean you do you, but idk why your trying to engage in a conversation about fantasy.

>>94632383
Its not a literal death battle, its a debate over design philosophy

>>94633088
So fight that never happen, nogames faggot

>>94632405
in anime all martials are just melee casters
exceptions also exist where casters are just super weak so the martials don't have to be caster

>one guy hits dudes with a stick
>the other can shapechange into creatures that are better at fighting than the fighter and that can cast Wish and numerous other spells as spell like abilities with no component requirements - for the cost of a single spell slot, or a single wand charge, or a scroll

gee, I fucking wonder.

>Why would a caster survive a single sword swing to the neck?

spells that stop you from swinging a sword :
charm / dominate person. hypnotism. sleep. color spray. fear. daze. hideous laughter. ghoul touch. scare. deep slumber. hold person. suggestion. black tentacles. confusion. geas. hypnotic / rainbow / scintillating pattern. symbol of sleep / fear / stunning / pain / insanity. geas. eyebite. insanity. binding. irresistible dance. temporal stasis.

spells that stop you from finding or reaching the wizard :
obscuring mist. disguise self. [adjective] image. expeditious retreat. fog cloud. web. darkness. invisibility. hut / shelter / mansion / sanctum / rope trick. misdirection. blindness / deafness. spider climb. nondetection. fly. dimension door. solid fog. wall of ice / iron / stone / force. teleport. mirage arcana. seeming. overland flight. repulsion. mislead. shadow walk. sequester. phase door. plane shift. genesis. forcecage. mind blank. simulacrum. clone. maze. antipathy. screen.

spells that make your sword (and you) irrelevant :
ray of enfeeblement. reduce person. glitterdust. shatter. displacement. blink. gaseous form. shrink item. slow. stoneskin. crushing despair. resilient sphere. bestow curse. reduce person. baleful polymorph. power word blind. iron body. polymorph any object.

spells that kill you :
summon monster 1 - 9. scorching ray. explosive runes. stinking cloud. fireball. lightning bolt / chain lightning. haste. ice storm. wall of fire. phantasmal killer. enervation. polymorph. cloudkill. greater planar binding. cone of cold. contingency. circle of death. finger of death. create / animate undead. flesh to stone. mordenkainen’s sword. prismatic spray / wall / sphere. incendiary cloud. horrid wilting. symbol of death. imprisonment. gate. power word kill. meteor swarm. weird. energy drain. wail of the banshee. shapechange. time stop. wish.

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>>94632383
Because they use different gear, different strategies, use different resources, and beliefs to achieve the same goals. It can also be seen as unattainable versus attainable for the commoner in the setting.

But since they both achieve the same goals it becomes a comparison of which the most effective.

>>94632541

Because he wants to kill multiple people at once. How is that hard to understand?

>>94632541
Fireballs aren't slow. Spells resolve as soon as they're cast.

>>94632541
The only difference between these spells is that one has the Resisted Pro, so you can only you passive defense against it. It's not any more damaging.

Honestly, non-magicals should just by default get vastly more skill points. Skills should be more consolidated but vastly more skills should be added and Level 6/9 spellcasting classes just never get skill points at all.
I've seen all your INT stats, that shit is at 7 so you don't have skill points anyway, Mr Sorcerer.
The class tiers are ultimately decided by how well one can approach a large number of situations which is a place Spellcasters will always excel so giving non-magicals mundane ways to increase their utility can't be a bad thing.

Skills will never matter as long as magic can do anything.

>>94634493
This >>94634828
The only actual solution is to reduce the number of things magic can do. Either by trimming the spell list directly, or at the very least forcing casters to specialize in a smaller handful of spells.
Likely both, if you ever want them to come close to balanced with classes that could be considered remotely mundane.

>>94632383
3.5 completely fucked character balance

>>94634991
3.5 character balance is way way better than 3.0 character balance which is better than 2e character balance

>>94635065
3.0 has four infinite power loops, 3.5 has six. 3.5 is objectively less balanced.

>>94632383
>fight
You missed the entire point, idiot.
It's that martials can fight good.
Casters can do anything, solving important non-combat problems with no effort.

It's the difference between going on a quest to find a legendary elixir to cure a disease vs ...casting 'cure disease'. The former is worthy of an entire novel, the latter is just a power.

>>94632383
Because some people want to play sword guy in an ostensibly cooperative game, and get annoyed when they realize a few months into the campaign that their character doesn't pull his weight

>>94634336
>lists nothing but spells from Dungeons & Dogshit
DnD retards are infinitely worse than both martial-fags and caster-fags

>>94635230
Only system that exists, bitch. Stay furious.

>>94632383
LEAVE THAT WEREWOLF ALONE

>>94635176
martials cannot fight even passably, let alone good.

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>>94632383
>magic doesn't exist, that's just a crazy guy with a funny hat.

>coping this hard

analizing the posts in this thread, i came to the conclusion that martials should die if they lose initiative. if they win it, they have one round before they die anyway. casters meanwhile have plenty of ways to instakill martials, protect themselves, and why not also guarantee they go first
don't bother disagreeing, real life ain't fair and there will always be people who are just better and can't be beat.

>>94632446
>>94632484
Casterfag entitlement is the problem, as always.

>>94640330
Correct
Casters are inherently superior and martials as a concept shouldn't exist. The smart rule the strong. That's how society works.

>>94640660
No.

>>94632383
Counterpoint
Martial with an Enchanted (Or Blessed) shield that reflects magic and belt that augments his willpower against mental and physical impediment.

>>94640931
Force cage.

>>94641070
wait an hour

>>94640660
Yep. Babies who can't handle being told no.

>>94641290
You think you'll survive even one round? lol

>>94641322
Nope, just characters who actually have abilities that can affect the world.

>>94641412
sure why not

lol retard

>>94641418
Nope.

Yep.

>caster baby can't handle being told no

>martial's still wrong

>>94641822
>the whole point of playing the caster is so that you can tell everyone else, including the GM, no

>>94641440
>>94641728
>>94641822
>>94641847
are you people afraid of replying to each other or is this some woman thing i don't get

>he's still trying to get replies

>>94632383
The division was there from the beginning. Even before D&D was published, shaping RPGs as we know them forever, there were two classes.
>Fighting Man
>Magic-User
These were balanced out by the fighting man being the only guys who fought and the magic-users being the only guys who cast spells. Since magic was deemed to be extremely powerful, low-level magic-users couldn't cast many spells, but to counter-balance the high-level magic-users, fighting men who reached a similar level were expected to be lords and leaders of armies. Even then, this wasn't handed to them for free. The fighting man had to either earn. conquer, buy, or build his holdings and pay upkeep on his army, while the magic-user had to go out and find scrolls to copy into his spellbook.

You can blame D&D 3e, or anime, or whatever else, but from 2000 onward, there was a shift in class design and magic-users (now "casters") have a bunch of spells off the bat, can cast more spells, and even get free spells when they gain a level. The sheer power fantasy of "Oh, just cast this spell" is rooted in the idea of getting free spells. The fighting men (now "martials") have fuck-all to counter-balance this. The idea of holdings and followers for martials vanished about 20 years and no one really seemed to mind as most campaigns don't usually go for that long, so martials has less and casters have more.

So in answer to your first question, RPG design is skewed towards casters and the "versus" dichotomy is a symptom of this. How the shitposting about the disparity stopped being ironic and started being this petty is beyond me.

>inb4 cleric
Yes, clerics were introduced because disease, healing and undead were the main reasons for character deaths in Blackmoor and were created in direct response to those problems. While they are thrown in under the caster or martial umbrellas, people tend to default to wizards when thinking "caster" and swordsmen when thinking of "martials"

>>94642902
>The sheer power fantasy of "Oh, just cast this spell" is rooted in the idea of getting free spells.
So, the exact same thing as in OD&D, basically

>>94642902
>The idea of holdings and followers for martials vanished about 20 years and no one really seemed to mind as most campaigns don't usually go for that long, so martials has less and casters have more.
The counterbalance was supposed to be that every class gets to be superheroes instead of only high level wizards, but WotC still keep making the mistake of martials being entirely combat focused with not enough utility. And they also make absolutely retarded balancing choices, like saying "every fighter can fly" is no bueno, but giving a race flying like Aaracockra is totally fine.

Ideally every archetype would be a choice between being Superman or Batman-with-preptime

>>94642902
>martials has less and casters have more.
As it should be. Being an ordinary mundane person in a fantastic world full of magic should not be a viable character type. Martials are a waste of page space and should be deleted.

>>94632383
My problem isn't how much damage each class can deal, my problem is that it's just more fun to play as a mage because mages has more options while fighters can, usually, only deal damage without any additional effects.

>What if a spell is so powerful or so effective it removes combat altogether?
This is already what happens. Martials vs casters is a thing specially because casters have built-in tools to bypass combat and environmental hazards.

>>94632383
Because two characters of the same level should have roughly equal ability when it comes to their efficacy of solving problems and dealing with challenges. Stop being retarded.

>>94633535
None of the people arguing that casters should be overpowered actually play anything, let alone own any books, let alone understand what "design philosophy" means on any actionable level.

>>94643630
yes
human + control over unnatural forces will always be more than human + training on natural forces. It's like complaining that a programmer can do more with a computer than a doctor.

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>>94643964
First - there are fantasy settings where even wild animals have magic, so it makes no sense that fighters don't use magic. Second - there are fantasy settings where the laws of nature are different from ours and allow people who have mastered special techniques to do things that are not possible in real life. Third - in many tabletop systems, fighters don't even have a real-life options available, so fuck off, magefag.

>>94632914
This retard has never heard of protection from missiles spell

>>94644016
If your statement, and indeed the entire thread, wasn't based off a single edition of D&D, there would be merit to this.
Many of the games where wild animals have magical abilities do not give the pcs a bigger gun, but expect you to use other ways to even the odds, be it tactics, terrain, knowledge, or yes, equipment, but few give similar magic prowess to pcs the way D&D, 3.5 in particular, do, for virtually no drawback.
Most games have mechanical drawbacks, setting drawbacks, or a combination of both, as limiters. World of Darkness is a premier example, Warhammer is another.

>>94633930
Didn't you get ran off the board?

>>94640287
This illustration is fucking horrible

>>94632828
This.

Even in a world like Game of Thrones, where you just die if you get hit, if a magic-user successfully performs a death ritual, they will usually... win... and you just die...

Even if everyone has exactly 1 hp, the magic-user still has more avenues to take. This is why magic is quite specific, too. Why does it need to be about combat?

>>94644144
Why?

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>>94644107
>wasn't based off a single edition of D&D
Dnd is a kitchen sink without any logical thought put into it, the authors thoughtlessly mixed all the known archetypes and called it a day. If you use dnd raw, without any modifications, then you're retard.
>Many of the games where wild animals have magical abilities do not give the pcs a bigger gun
>Warhammer
>do not give the pcs a bigger gun
Are you tourist or retard? Your call.

>>94644207
A vast majority of 40k RPG systems have you start as way, way lower than Space Marines where even a basic bitch Bolter is usually either out of reach or considered your best option for CharGen and they still do jack shit against things like Rak'gol and Slaugth. I get what you mean in that 40k eventually gives you bigger gun but for most of the games you're random jobbers by tabletop standards for a good portion of the game.

>>94644207
>Dnd is a kitchen sink
Yes, but the martial v caster nonsense didn't become an actual thing until 3e.
Basic and Advanced made the road to power punishing, 4e made them work on the same mechanical base, 5e gutted the normally abused spells by making saves much easier to make.
>WF
Have you played the games? Both psykers and mages have severe mechanical and setting drawbacks limiting their ability to run roughshod.

>>94644147
>if a magic-user successfully performs a death ritual, they will usually... win... and you just die...
>a magic-user successfully performs
Magic either works or it doesn't, and it shouldn't always work. Catch a witch with her pants down, before she finishes her shit, and she will get sworded like anyone else.

>>94644229
>A vast majority of 40k RPG systems have you start as way, way lower than Space Marines
>Deathwatch
Ok nogames. Now fuck off.

>>94644251
A gun either fires or it doesn't.

The lethality of magic being toned down is what makes it survivable, since physics in real life is not fucking around. If you get hit in the face by a blast from a shotgun, you are DEAD. It should be the same with magic missiles/shrapnel.

It's truly ironic, since martials always accuse casters of being the ones to "rape" physics, when the physics of their own in-fiction REQUIRES it be raped (relative to our own), so they can survive "the magic", even when the ability to avoid bullets or lightning, IS MORE OR LESS SAYING YOU'RE THE FUCKING FLASH FROM DC. But for some reason they aren't the Flash in any other instance...

Martial fags are objectively more petty/pathetic than casters fags have ever been, and they've always been fucking BLIND to it. How much their hands have to be held. Meanwhile a caster/magic-user, is just assumed to be out of the ordinary, as they ARE magic (yes, MAGIC, as in "how did he do that??") users at the end of the day... and martials are not...

>>94644238
>Yes, but the martial v caster nonsense didn't become an actual thing until 3e.
We're not talking about history, we're talking about modern day. Modern dnd sucks and only retard would use it without modifications.
>Both psykers and mages have severe mechanical and setting drawbacks limiting their ability to run roughshod.
This, but the conversation was about "the setting doesn't give the player a bigger gun", lol. Warhammer is known for its over-the-top weapons, and saying that the systems don't allow to compensate for the difference in strength with better weapons is at best a dndrone projection, but more likely retard is just a stupid troll who knows jack shit about the setting or systems.

>>94644251
>Magic either works or it doesn't
Then it's not magic, but technology or mental technique. So no, magic without the risk of failure is for retards.

>>94644318
Anon, I think you need to work on your reading comprehension.
I was making comparisons about magical creatures to mundane pcs, and then compared magic in D&D to magic as presented in other systems with theoretically powerful supernatural abilities.
>We're not talking about history, we're talking about modern day
>5e gutted the normally abused spells by making saves much easier to make
READ, nigga, READ!

>>94644281
>A vast majority of 40k RPG systems
>names 1 out of 9, 3 of those 9 have space marines as possible pcs
ITT a bunch of trolls
Pack it up, everyone.
/thread

>>94644321
>Then it's not magic, but technology
Magic and technology are indistinguishable, even in antiquity, you realize.
>mental technique
Just considering some thing magic ("magic") is a mental "technique".
>So no, magic without the risk of failure is for retards.
You think science isn't without risk or failure? Some scientists literally had their bodies melt off their bones from poking at physics too hard.

>>94644395
>names 1 out of 9
In Black Crusade you can play as a Chaos Space Marine. In the rest of the systems you have a variety of BIG FUCKING GUNS to deal with psykers. Also in other systems you can play as Ogrin or Adeptus Mechanicus, or even have a fucking Baneblade(!) you dipshit. And their availability depends only on how much DMs are assholes, giving a stormtrooper a hellgun right from the start was the norm for my Dark Heresy group because the lore from FFG<<<<<<GW lore.

>>94644569
>Magic and technology are indistinguishable
Retarded take from retards who want to have overpowered magic without any drawback. Typical dndfags.
>You think science isn't without risk or failure?
In science, if you do everything right, there is no failure. Research is another matter, but then the goal of research is to make the unknown known, and after the research is over and scientists know the truth the risk of failure drops significantly. Meanwhile being mysterious, unknown and therefore unstable is the whole point of magic, anyone who wants MYSTICAL POWERS to be non-mystical and always give a stable result is an insecure piece of shit who wants to be overpowered without paying any price.

94644586
>idiot still can't read, trolls to get dopamine hit

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>>94644635
>In science, if you do everything right, there is no failure.
Getting there, however, is riddled with failure and even death, even horrifically cruel death.

"All progress, demands sacrifice", simple as.

>Meanwhile being mysterious, unknown and therefore unstable is the whole point of magic
The modern wizard is literally just the mad scientist, poking/hanging at the edges of current understanding, and I've always said this.

The parallels are disturbing.
- "It's not a matter of could, but should"
- "No sense of right and wrong"
- "All progress demands sacrifice"
- "Sweet, man-made horrors beyond my comprehension"
- "Oh-my-science... what have I done..."

There is definitely a dark arts side to science, and the mad scientist's creation (usually some pieced together monstrosity, some robot or AI, or some horrific disease, etc) running amok is precisely like the sorcerer's spell gone awry.

You're just not seeing the parallels.

>>94644742
Scientists also fill the same void/niche as wizards.

Look to typical superhero slop fiction. It's usually some wizard or scientist type sage who bestows the hero with free superpowers to save the day, or creates some artifact to do just that.

It's all weird ass knowledge bases.

>>94644742
>The modern wizard is literally just the mad scientist
If you want to play as a mad scientist then play as a mad scientist, there are systems for that. A mage should be something else, but I already understood that the dnd brainrot sits too deep in you so bye, you have once again shown that dnd is a game for stupid normies who want everything to be primitive, stable and boring because their stupid brain simply cannot comprehend anything more.

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>>94644768
I'm just being aware of history, and acknowledging what science is a descendent of, anon.

That's all. It all meets. In the end. The image of the wizard sitting in their tower orrery looking at the stars in the night sky, using strange arcane gadgetry, doing painstaking measurements of the planets, etc, should be visual evidence enough.

>>94632383
This is where good old square-based Warhammer Fantasy comes in.
Yes, the wizard can teleport regiments around, twist the minds of their opponents and blast apart dozens of foes.
Unfortunately they're on a battlefield with many heavily-arnoured troops all wanting them to tear them apart, where the "martials" are riding monsters and are bedecked with magical items, and if you slip up while casting a spell your head explodes.

>>94644742
>>94644751
>>94644783
this attempt to string wizards to a pop culture understanding of a scientist is weird to me because ultimately magic still isn't real regardless of what a hypothetical pop culture understanding of a peasant thinks is magic

>>94644137
So no counterargument? lol

>>94644161
It's one step away from world of Warcraft """fantasy art""". It's modern slop.

>>94632383
It’s a projection of the old nerds vs. jocks stand-off that I don’t think is a thing anymore…

>>94645836
nah

>>94632383
I hate this trope because it hinges on retarded gamey idea of magic-users absolutely not being able to use physical combat and fighters not being able to use magic, both of which just make no sense and don't happen in classic fantasy stories.

>>94645253
> ultimately magic still isn't real regardless of what a hypothetical pop culture understanding of a peasant thinks is magic
The chemistry in the brain leading up to "Wow! It's like magic!" is definitely, one-hundred percent, real. Magic can't exist even in fiction, technically speaking. Not in the sense you're thinking of. It's just a point, or a sleight, of view. An angle. A bar. Whatever. It exists the same way darkness, cold, or holes, exist. So not really. If you can't parse any of this logic, you suck.

>>94646444
nah they make sense and they happen

>>94647492
nope, not real

It depends on what magic is in your setting. If it's ASOIAF magic then it makes sense for non-casters to dominate. If it's literally free-form local reality warping then it would be nonsensical for non-casters to dominate over casters.

>>94647492
the "chemistry in the brain" is sociological and not innate, you think something is magic and believe other, stupider (or just less educated) people must also think it's magic
pop culture mad scientists aren't wizards

>>94647709
chemistry in the brain is innate

>>94648317
there's no chemical which instills the idea of something being magic, or there being magic

>>94648481
fear of the unknown, awe of the unexplainable/amazing comes to mind, i wouldn't think there would be a certain chemical you could point out in the brain, but its for sure a mixture of a few depending on the experience,
ancient people seeing and hearing bright, loud lighting strikes were probably both in awe at the sight, afraid of the noise, and curious on how such a phenomenon was possible, basically being befuddled, which whatever chemical reactions in the brain that cause those kind of feelings would be a ok way to describe it as "magic"

>>94647709
>pop culture mad scientists aren't wizards
Cope. Iron Man is a wizard.

>>94648634
you're trying to think of how an ancient person thinks with your modern cultural view of what an ancient person thinks
some may have attributed it to magic, a lot attributed it to the gods and that would've been bundled under the domain of dnd's clerics
point being it isn't a chemical reaction telling you it's magic, it's the current society's understanding (or lack thereof) telling you it's magic

>>94648635
artificer maybe

>>94632383
It’s like saying that an artillery piece is more powerful than tanks or infantry. In laboratory conditions, it is. If your game approaches laboratory conditions, it’s more of a shopping trip than an adventure.

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>>94648651
Artificers are wizards. Cope.

>>94648743
and rogues are fighters
iron man is as much a wizard as conan is

>>94632383
They "fight differently" in the sense that casters kill people, and martials die.

>>94648714
No, an accurate comparison would be gods vs ants.

>>94648635
Nope.

>>94651018
Nope.

>>94632405
>dodge—or even deflect—fucking bullets, lightning, etc, when
im not doing any of that, im simplu nullifying your wicked sorcery with the blessings of God

Martials are actually stronger than wizards since magic isn't real.

>>94648481
yeah there is

>>94632405
I'm just here to say: I really appreciate your correct use of Alt+0151. It's rare to find a person who does it. That is all.

>>94651971
Magic is any instance of "Wow, what the hell".

>>94652880
Wat

>>94655871
Most people—both on the Internet and IRL—don't use em dashes. They-unfortunately-use hyphens.

>>94656121
That's not unfortunate.

>>94632405
>Physics also moves a lot slower to the point where a martial is able to dodge—or even deflect—fucking bullets, lightning, etc, when that’s just impossible
By real world standards*. Nothing says a FANTASY game has to adhere to realistic physics or realistic anything. In fact, magic itself breaks the laws of physics because it can create and destroy matter, so this argument falls flat.

>>94632383
>Why is martials vs casters even a thing when both fight completely differently?
Answered your own question. Didn't read the rest.

>>94632405
fpbp

Another thread infested with the one sentence nuh-uh poster.

>>94656639
>Nothing says a FANTASY game has to adhere to realistic physics or realistic anything
No, but there’s a point where it just turns into a beep-boop overly considerate type of video game-y fantasy world, and then it’s closer to science-fiction with a coat of fantasy paint hucked over it. A fiction also has its own internal consistencies/physics.
>In fact, magic itself breaks the laws of physics because it can create and destroy matter, so this argument falls flat.
That’s not breaking the laws of its own in setting physics. Technically speaking, the breaking of physics cannot be done, and it’s only a relative matter. Nothing defies physics, only our understanding of it. This is magic. It’s exotic, alien, unfamiliar, etc.

>>94632630

I mean, if anything the lethalness of physics is toned down to allow the existence of a dragon in the first place.

There's not a single animal in the real world a guy with a spear can't figure out how to kill

>>94664299
A dragon shouldn't be able to stay aloft, period. But, typically, a dragon's hide or scales are what makes them physically resilient, although this likely still won't stop humans, in some way

If reading a book and then being able to shoot a fireball is okay, so is doing squats for a year and then jumping to the moon. Both should have unlimited scaling because it's fun.

>>94656703
I noticed some posters invoke physics only when to shit on non-mage characters. I never saw such attitude in actual play, so I assume they're just another type of trolls.

Wizards win.

>>94663273
nuh uh

>>94666187
Magic doesn't obey physics, retard. Martials do.

martials win

bump

>Why is martials vs casters even a thing when both fight completely differently?
The answer is that a lot of people are irritated by how D&D treats fighting.
Martial combat is baseline system that everyone has access to, including casters, it's just that martial classes have access to better modifiers and more attacks, with maybe one or two special abilities dependent on their class and subclass.
Then casters have access to an entirely separate system that allows them to circumvent the martial system entirely, when used intelligently. Debilitating spells that mean that foes don't have to be fought using the martial system, buffs that prevent you from being fought using the martial system, other spells that make as you as effective in martial combat as martial characters, offensive spells that inflict damage that would take martial characters several turns to accomplish, and more.
The only limiting factor of this system is the limited number of spells that casters have access to, which is circumvented in most campaigns because almost no groups goes for five or more encounters between every long rest.
The solution to this would be to introduce a system for martial characters that caster characters don't have access to, that could be used to accomplish similar feats that martial characters typically can't accomplish. Combat manoeuvrers that allow martial characters to stun their foes, blind their foes, cripple their foes, strengthen their allies, shed debilitating conditions, prevent foes from casting, inflicting massive damage and so on. Some of classes and subclasses do have access to some of these features, but they're usually very limited and locked behind a small pool of points, short rests or long rests, leaving casters with much greater access to these features.
Until martial characters get access to a diverse set of abilities that casters don't have access to by default, casters will always be supreme.

>>94674000
Why?

>>94635176
I'm not going to argue your point but I want to add that 'fighting good' is insufficient to win fights after a certain point in D&D and D&D-style fantasy - the opponents you'll come to face are built to be resistant or immune to non-magical weapons (and even magical weapons of insufficiently potent enchantment, or in some cases, any kind of weaponry), fly, or other means being immune to conventional force of arms.

>>94640931
Unless you give every martial that it's not really a big deal - considering that every caster casts spells by design - and that's just a shitty way to solve a problem.

>>94674349
bump

>>94674349
bump

Wizards win.

>>94640660
naw, it's not entitlement. If a caster doesn't have some sort of shield up, it's their fault. It could be magic shields, deflection, false images. If they arent taking the time to imbue these into cloaks, rings, buttplugs and the like so they arent constantly spending spell slots and other resources, that's on them.

The real discussion should be about all these tinkerers and alchemists taking over wizard roles.

You get hit in the face with a shotgun, you die. It’s that simple.

You get hit in the face with a magic missile, you die. It’s that simple.

Fuck health/hit points. Fuck pillow fight physics.

>>94689545
All martials should be using heavy spiked/studded pillows as their primary weapons

>>94689545
So magic just wins? Is that it?

>>94692371
>So guns just win is that it?
Yes?

All wizards should mind control martials into subservient sex slaves

>>94689545
Based

>>94685853
>
So if there is any kind of urgency to the threat that the party are facing then casters are fucked? Sounds good.

While we're at it, lets also also stop handwaving all the shit that provided a balance to spellcasters:
- material components (actually finding and keeping stock of the required components, not just handwaving a material components pouch)
- actually finding new spells to learn (not just poofing them into their minds when the level up sound plays)
- protecting their spell books (it's a book, it's really rather fragile, you need to protect it from the environment or you're fucked)

>>94632383
>DOOT DOOOOOOT

>>94642902
I think one way to handle the issue would be to bring back different leveling rates for different classes.
Even in 1st edition DnD a high-level magic user was stronger than a high-level fighting man (especially as you probably weren't going to be able to bring all those men-at-arms in full harness you got from becoming the local lord along with you on a dungeon crawl), and it's more or less inevitable because a high-level wizard is going to have access to powerful and versatile spells, while the high-level fighting-man is still limited to mundane fighting stuff. So the peak potential for the fighter is going to be much lower, but if it takes much longer for the magic user to reach that peak then it wouldn't be as much an issue in a typical campaign. Like, sure a level 20 wizard might be a reality-warping god and level 20 fighter just a guy who can swing a sword real good, but if the fighter reaches level 20 by the time the wizard is still level 10 and able to cast maybe one really strong spell per day, then the disparity is not as much of an issue except for very long campaigns. And by the time the wizard reaches level 20 the fighter would have been able to multiclass or take some epic-level prestige class or something that gives him supernatural abilities as well, so it's no longer a comparison between a god-wizard and regular dude with a sword but a god-wizard and an ascended demigod or something.

>>94644281
Only DW and potentially Black Crusade (if you play as CSM instead of baseline humans) lets you play as a Marine. DH, Rogue Trader, and Only War have you playing as baseline humans (or a techpriest, which to be fair can over time get enough cybernetics to basically become equivalent to a Marine). So the majority of the 40k RPGs don't have you playing as Marines.

>>94644807
But even then in the last edition of WFB before GW blew up the entire setting games tended to come down to "the side whose wizard first casts Purple Sun/Dwellers Below and fucking deletes the opposing army wins".

>>94645253
I feel it's the other way around. That is, the trope of a mad scientist is just the archetypal wizard given a new coat of paint to fit the modern era. Since "a wizard did it" no longer works as an explanation for seemingly impossible things when people no longer believe in magic, writers simply replace it with "sufficiently advanced science". See all the films and comics where radiation is pretty much magic and can create giant monsters or give people supernatural powers.

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>>94696163
Indeed. “It’s science I ain’t gotta explain shit” is just as valid as “it’s magic I ain’t gotta explain shit” since science, like magic, is full of black boxes, like the black goo from Ridley Scott’s Prometheus. “It’s the black goo I ain’t gotta explain shit”.

>>94696163
>>94696177
The stereotypical wizard is literally just a dreamlike, fantastical reflection of the mad scientist, and the trope or image even lead up to the latter. All the “certified wizards” of the past were the mad scientists of their day and age, building weird arcane devices and gadgetry like the classical Greeks, Archimedes, Roger Bacon, Da Vinci, etc.

Isaac Newton, “the last of the magicians”, was more occultist, or natural mystic than natural philosopher proper. Very much in esoteric matters, and believed in things like the philosophers stone, and sacred geometry (Solomon’s temple), etc. Isaac was also a heretic in his spare time, and rejected the Trinity.

Galileo thought he could read fate in the stars, and would offer readings to people. He would seriously entertain discussions like “Should a Leo date a Gemini?”. He’s most notable for upsetting the state of the Church, with dissenting science.

Paracelsus, the foremost physician of his day, the ‘father of medicinal minerals’, is on record claiming that masturbating into a chicken egg will produce homunculi.

One of the first individuals to propose that light travels, the guy who started the four elements, influencer of Aristotle, also saw himself as a living god, started a cult, and thought he’d rise from the ashes after he jumped into a volcano.

All mad/“mad”, but brilliant.

Even people like Marie Curie evoke this essence of the dabbling witch, poking at dangerous phenomena that deteriorates the body and mind over time. Her diary is still radioactive to his day.

>>94632440
People can dodge arrows in real life though, nobody can say the same about lightning.

>>94696224
>All the “certified wizards” of the past were the mad scientists of their day and age
Poking and hanging at the very edges of present day understanding, lacing their understanding with the arrogance of the imagination. Based. No one would dare to question the mad genius since they’re still unable to differentiate madness from brilliance. “He’s insane but he still makes results, so…”.

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>>94632405
>Physics also moves a lot slower
Ha! Fool

>>94696177
FUCK the black goo and FUCK David (haha)

>>94696094
that was dumb and overcomplicated, if that's the power balance, just make casters half as strong at every level so that a level 20 caster is equal to a level 20 martial and make actual level mean something?

>>94700425
I mean the actually way casters used to be balanced besides the limit of magic was that all actions in a round happened at once after all actions were stated. So if the wizard got hit while casting he would have to make a save or the spell fizzled.

>>94632383
what is this image from

>>94702778
Looks like something off the Disney channel.

>>94689545
no

>>94632436
>“Just because you shot me in the face doesn’t mean I’m dead. I have 5 hit points left”. “Your brain literally fell out the back side of your skull”

Sounds like a misinterpretation, fluffwise, of what is happening mechanics wise.

>>94632436
If you have 5 hp left, your brain is intact. Also, there are no rules for location damage, so they wouldn't happen no matter how much damage you take.

lol maximum cope

>>94712033
What in Jonathan Strange & Mr Norrell is this? (if is from the show I don't remember that scene, it's been years).

>>94632383
Autism

>>94712033
How does a martial get out of this pickle?

>>94632383
>Why is martials vs casters even a thing when both fight
that's why

>>94715774
He flexes the mud away

>>94715774
bro he had time to stand up about ten times while that guy was meditating with his axe, i don't think it's a problem

>>94632902
Oh yes, their +4 AC spell will definitely help against the, depending on level, 3-7 arrow attacks that chunk a 3rd of their HP per hit. Good thing you gave yourself that shield, a higher level fighter definitely can't defeat a 15 AC or so. You really out-smarted them.

>>94717146
It's damage reduction, silly.

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>>94632383
It's just bunch of nerds who didn't have sucessfull life overcompensating being bullied by jocks in high school. They do it in only way they can do it, by writting "magic nerd who spend his entire life better than dumb dude with sword".
You can only find stuff like that in modern fantasy tho, in classic tales and myths casters were support characters for martials like Merlin to Arthur and in greek myths casters weren't that impressive when compared to martials. Heracles held entire fucking world on his back so Atlas would bring him apples. Not to mention martials were clever guys most of the time.

Caster vs Martial is modern phenomenon forced by nerds bullied in high school, who can't get over it. This is why it's always "caster can override reality with snap of his fingers" but when someone bring "martial can move with inhuman speed" it's suddenly unrealistic and bad and of course martials must be dumb as opposed to wise wizard.

>>94719653
That's completely wrong though
It's all fakeboomers whining about martials being given tools because they want their based tradcore alphamale fantasy where everything is given to them for free for having 12 str but also this means that nothing in the world can be allowed to threaten a regular guy with 12str because that's the extent of a deviation from their selfimage that martialfags will allow
Casterfags have been trying to turn martials into anime characters since before there were TTRPGs

>>94721141
Realismfags are other unsufferable group, who want to turn fantasy into historical game, not realising that just dude with sword and caster who maybe will be able to cast single fireball per day won't be able to kill dragon, like ever.
Other retarded group are gunfags, who just want guns but also said early firearms to be instant death rays that will end every combat necounter in single turn, or just want ar-15 in medieval fantasy. They are ultra rare tho.

>>94719653
>>94721141
>>94721375
how the fuck were you retards able to write this much without putting down a single fact by accident

>>94719653
>>94721141
>>94721375
The issue is that really there are three main kinds of non-modern tabletop fantasy, that because of decades of cultural access have been mixed up in each other when they are tonally incompatible.
The first is Mythological Fantasy, the kind of stuff that draws from old myths and legends.
This is your classical mythos. The depictions of heroes are filled with high power feats based in exaggerated physical attributes. Monsters are terrifying things that torment the lesser folk and are defeated is grand feats of strength. Magic was foreign and separate from the hero, mostly coming from the gods.

The second is Pulp Fantasy, this is your Conan's, or your your Fathard and the Grey Mouser's. The heroes while in the top percentile of people are generally just moral dudes sometimes with some extra enchanted equipment or minor knowhow. Monsters while fearsome are still able to be felled by mortal hands, a threat on the scope of an oversized boar most often, dangerous but still an animal even dragons. Magic is esoteric and requires long complex and often costly rituals but with fearsome effects.

While not the chronological third the next one to talk about is Anime Fantasy, this is stuff like Exalted, Sword World, and basically every modern anime series that takes RPG concepts and applies them to a fantasy world. The heroes are powerful like the mythological figures but are much more flashy about it with more definitive origins and boundaries. The monsters are more dangerous than jacked animals but are not major threats themselves, the real meat of conflict is from the other people on the same level with similar capabilities. Magic is very complex and broad in usage but with hard technical limits baked into the systems.

Tabletop was based in Pulp Fantasy with D&D but has grown to take on others, because of this there is a fundamental mismatch in every system that takes its design from D&D unless you are trying to play a variant of Pulp.

>>94719653
>You can only find stuff like that in modern fantasy tho, in classic tales and myths casters were support characters for martials like Merlin to Arthur
I thinking part of the issue also comes from the fact that tabletop RPGs can't really have a "main character" (or, rather,it's considered bad form for one player to hog all the attention or GM to favor a single player over others). In myths magic was essentially a deus ex machina that could be used to solve a situation the hero otherwise couldn't, but it wasn't the main focus of the story. Merlin could do very impressive feats of magic but the story was about King Arthur, so his magic was used in the narrative as a plot device to assist Arthur rather than the story being about Merlin himself. But if Merlin and Arthur are both player characters in a RPG party it would kind of suck for Merlin's player to have his character sit in a tower until Arthur's player requires him to magic something up. And once you remove the limitation of only using magic when the narrative requires it, it turns out the guy who can do basically anything the plot would require is going to have a lot more utility than the guy whose only power is having given a fancy sword by some watery tart.

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>>94632383
>>94632405
And this shouldnt even be an issue. D&D is a game of cooperation, not putting players againdt each other. If a player feels underappreciated its the DMs problem.
I dont really care about balance either, magic shouldnt be balanced. The nain remedy before was to have different XP threshholds. The Magic user was the strongest in the party provided he or she could survive long enough.

>>94721375
>Realismfags are other unsufferable group
No, they aren't, the issue is everyone has a different idea of realism, and realism comes in many different angles, some of which are favored or disfavored for the sake of the charm of the narrative. Sometimes a contrast between realism and surrealism is precisely what makes a given narrative its charm. Look at Bioshock, look at Snowpiercer.

>>94722283
Mythological fantasy and what you're calling anime fantasy are exactly the same thing, and the heroes very often, usually even, had magic. Of course, often they were gods anyway.
>Tabletop was based in Pulp Fantasy with D&D
It wasn't.

>>94632383
>Why doesnt the caster die instantly in a game with Hit Points where characters can survive falls from orbit into pools of Lava?

Fucking hell this is retarded bait

>>94722283
>>94722998
yeah, the moment he described mythological fantasy i thought "shit like beowulf, conan, and exalted", but then he put those in a corner somewhere in his little system because he doesn't like them or something

the even bigger problem is that this isn't all that relevant to tabletop either, because it's just the tone of the fantasy, whereas tabletop is split by much more impactful categories, like tactical wargaming versus roleplaying for example

which makes it even more laughable when he said that pulp fantasy was the start, because the actual start was tactical wargaming with the tone somewhat irrelevant

>>94723163
Myth isn’t as obnoxiously immature as anime crap. The hero in anime is usually some cringe little girl or little boy. Even in the Bible (David and Goliath) it’s a lot less annoying since the hero is usually a lot more humble than the cocky chuuni kiddo in your typical anime slop. The archmage in your typical anime setting is some loli.

>>94723181
thank you for confirming what i said?

>>94723181
Never read norse or hindu or greek myths I guess lol

>>94723199
Norse is just degenerate. Hindu is actually a lot weird. More weird than immature. Although I can see why you would confuse the two.

>>94723239
he didn't confuse the two, he gave you three separate examples

look anon, no one can stop you from weaving your agenda into your posts, but you're gonna have to be less transparent to fool anyone

>>94723254
What agenda? I just started posting. Take your meds.

>>94723112
>characters can survive falls from orbit into pools of Lava
Maybe you just have a shit DM who doesn't use common sense?

>>94723239
You are completely ignorant.
By far the most famous hero in hindu myth Arjuna notwithstanding not because BG is better known (it's not, actually), but because he isn't actually known about, people just know that one quote that got popularized is literally a smug shota that acts childish and conceited and dabs on the supreme deity of the old pantheon

You should stop posting.

>>94723264
i said that your categories have more to do with what you like and dislike and aren't a genuine attempt at making the three different categories of fantasy tone you described, and when you responded to the post where i said so you reiterated that dislike is your only real criterion

maybe you aren't aware of what you're doing yourself

>>94723277
What categories? I’m not the other guy. I’m just pointing out that western silliness is still a lot more mature than Asian silliness, which consists of fart battles.

>>94723275
Arjuna is kino tho. He is not cringe at all. Just say you hate Indian myth.

>>94723518
Here's your >(you), mr chatgpt

There is nothing more mature than turning yourself into a female horse and then getting fucked by a real male horse. Loki called Odin a fag for wearing women’s clothing, after all. He could not be any gayer than that.

>>94723511
he shit about mythic fantasy, pulp fantasy, and "anime" fantasy

you also got counterpointed by someone else that at least three types of ancient myth are as silly or even sillier than anime, but kind of ignored it?

>>94723741
>ancient myth are as silly or even sillier than anime
Only in Asia *farts*

>>94723813
fix your diet, fartbro

>>94723575
Which one of them sucked the cum out of dude's corpses after hangings in order to replenish their mana?

>>94723854
That would be Odin

>>94632383
GMs are meant to make challenges difficult and abundant enough that casters running out of spells is a real threat, which they seem to be reluctant to do. Martials shine because they can put out consistent damage indefinitely. So if the casters never run out of spells, of course they will be better, they are balanced by their limited spells.

>>94722998
>>94723163
Apologies it was late at night when I worth that up and I also cut like two paragraphs including a more comprehensive breakdown of the evolution of tabletop fantasy as seen through the lens of D&D.

The difference between Myth and Anime is one of Tone, context, and emphasis.
In myth being a big hero while having the power to do fantastic stuff its just a inherent part of being a figure of myth, Such myths were also intently tied to physicality above all else. Hercules was super strong because he was a Demigod and his labors reflect those traits. Likewise a figure such as Beowulf is a figure of raw physicality and cunning in his feats.

In Anime the powers are much more defined and explicitly move beyond the realm of physicality with things such as Ki or hard limits on mana within the fiction itself. This is combined with more explicit powers, things such as sword beams or complex magical constructs on the fly.
Yeah Odin needed to suck guys off for mana, but point me to a story where in the middle of a fight some opponent uses a secret mana drain technique causing Odin to conserve his power or some such.
This is all to say there is a difference in tone between a guy running faster than a normal man could ever hope to achieve to get a message where it needs to go in time, and a dude who is flashstepping around the arena

While yes tabletop has its roots in wargaming the original fiction that the original system came with and therefore defined the medium and had rulings for, was based in Pulp.
Its a known piece of trivia that when Gygax started running games he mainly based it off of the pulp novels he enjoyed reading and even disliked adding Lord of the Rings style elements into the game but did so at the behest of his players.
It wasn't until the Hickman Revolution that the focus of tabletop fantasy began to shift from "a group of dudes in a dungeon" to "a group of heroes going to save the world" and all the new baggage that brought with it.

>>94724925
>In myth being a big hero while having the power to do fantastic stuff its just a inherent part of being a figure of myth, Such myths were also intently tied to physicality above all else.
That's not even remotely true
>In Anime the powers are much more defined and explicitly move beyond the realm of physicality with things such as Ki or hard limits on mana within the fiction itself. This is combined with more explicit powers, things such as sword beams or complex magical constructs on the fly.
You mean exactly like mythology?
>but point me to a story where in the middle of a fight some opponent uses a secret mana drain technique causing Odin to conserve his power or some such.
There are a lot of those

>>94724974
proof?

>>94724974
Powers in myth aren’t really defined like a hard system, though. They’re usually silly or just poorly thought out. “Only a wood stake through its heart will kill a vampire!” “What about a nuclear bomb from the far future? Would that work?” “No!”

>>94724980
Read like, any book of collected myths

>>94725097
it would because burning them also works

>>94725116
Sure, was it in the Prose or Poetic Edda perchance or somewhere else?

>>94632383
All casters in high magic games should be like the Taken from the black company, almost impossible to kill with layered defenses.
>be genius
>command raw essence of the universe
>live in world full of idiots with swords running around stabbing shit
>do nothing to protect yourself from this.

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I enjoy systems that bring casters back down to earth.
We have for decades forgotten that "action economy" is a thing, and have allowed casters to outshine martials. Enough. Wizards don't "run out of spells" and are not "glass cannons" because players have access to all spells in the player's handbook and plan their fucking "builds" accordingly.
Play a system where casting a spell requires a skill roll
Play a system where a botched casting attempt has consequences
Play a system where martials can get combinations of some sort going, and thus make them extraordinarily dangerous.
Play a system where being a martial is the predominant culture of the world the players are in, and thus it becomes the backdrop to all conflict
Play a system where being a caster is difficult and risky, and rewarding, but only if the rest of the group can protect them

>>94726181
So WHFRPG?

>>94726181
So Game of Thrones?

>>94723854
It was fabricated.

What is with shit, autistic players and wizards? They go hand in hand every time

>>94735465
Even in history, always.

Whoever hits first wins.

>>94632774
>You WILL get hit by the wizard’s lightning bolt.
Even if it passes near some grounded metal like a portcullis?

>>94740579
It shoots to your steel sword and you get fried.

>>94726181
As >>94727346 said the warhammer rpgs tend to make magic costly. Though many spells can absolutely gangle fuck a person's afternoon, week, or their entire bloodline. Spells also don't actually cost anything; spell slots are an illusion. While the Martial has to track his arrows or javelins.

>>94632405
fpbp

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>>94632383
In myth and stories, the hero has some clever solution to get around the magic or they have magic items of their own that enhance their power.

A level 3 fighter can survive a firebolt. A level 5 fighter can survive a fireball with a magic resistance cloak they got through a quest at that point. A level 14 fighter has some insane willpower to resist magical effects in combination with magical items and superhuman strength and endurance.

If you want a world where it's all about only realistic human performance, then just scale down the magic to that level or make it npc/monster shit that isn't common and that players can't use. If the best the wizard can do in the heat of combat is a firebolt, then your Game of Thrones-tier hero can survive it.

Literally why is this still a discussion?

>>94748612
because a fireworks display has been crystalized in popular consciousness as the absolute minimum for magic

>>94748612
>Literally why is this still a discussion?
See >>94719653

>>94749375
Would people really complain if you limited the magical power of a caster in a system to knowledge skills, a lesser firework arsenal and some ritual spells for divining shit? That would still be a really cool character. It's what I've wanted for these systems for a long time now, a magic system that scales in complexity and status effects, but that stays relatively low-power (your firebolt now have targets catch on fire for subsequent rounds, your firebolt now snakes around instead of just in a straight line, etc) and aids situations, rather than flat out solving them (like cure curse, cure disease etc that are completely antithetical to storytelling)

sigh

Threads like this are intolerable when it's just the guy going around insisting his mage should be able to kill literally anyone on the globe from complete safety, without being known, out of sight of anyone, and with zero preconditions like even mundane line of sight. Wants his character to be able to tap their head and someone on the globe just [head explosion].

It's exactly as anon called out. It's just casters wanting to be invincible and throwing a complete fit when they aren't.

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>>94674121
This entire post.

I can only add this. Systems that are successful in balancing this gap tend to tack on hideous risks to using magic or their flavor of mystic power. You screw up your big spell and suddenly you explode in to daemons. Literally. Or your arm is suddenly shorn clean from your body. Maybe you permanently go blind. You take xdx damage and can very likely die in an instant. Maybe you permanently turn purple. Gravity reverses itself for so many rounds, and the fall down can be bad. Honestly, forcing every full caster to use a wild mage type table on all spells would probably make people think twice and consider their options more. Sure the full caster can twiddle and undo 2 weeks of the DM's campaign, but he's just as likely to rocks fall you die the entire group.

There are other methods, but it's become clear most DMs and players will ignore them. Things like heavy costs in items needed to cast spells get ignored cause tracking a bunch of small items in your bag is annoying. If you did something like requiring every full caster to have some hideous malady to be able to use magic at all, you'd just end with people ignoring it most of the time or finding ways to game around it. What's missing an arm, an eye, a couple of organs, both legs, or having some crippling mental disease? Nothing if you won't enforce it.

>>94722998
Mythological fantasy involves men who are typically 'demigods'. Nephilim. Normal men cannot simply do what these giants do. Anime fantasy supposes humans just have a mystical strength not typically tapped in to.

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>>94748612
> Literally why is this still a discussion?
From where I stand, the solution is obvious.

Split mages in to two very distinct types. Scholars and blasters. One cannot be the other. They are different classes. I think the issue comes down to some people want to be more of a mystic and are fine with martials taking care of martial stuff, but you also get the people who want to just be a magical artillery emplacement. When both are housed in one class, you get a class that can explode every combat encounter but also avoid every combat encounter and solve noncombat encounters. This is not an okay design outside of anything besides a single player game. Players have to accept limits to their niche when others are involved.

Mystics would be more like scholars with some funny tricks that are still indispensable to solve practical stumbling blocks on adventures and maybe bag the occasional combat encounter before it starts if they plan EXCEPTIONALLY well with their nonviolent bag of tools. Artillery mages can take a few turns to then drop a boulder on an entire group of guys and suffer the practical issues of being a guy who only knows how to do that.

>>94634828
Underrated post. It also creates the worst habits in players. Many of them only play wizards with optimal spells now, unable to go for a flavor build forgoing certain spells, as they always need to have detect magic and all the ritual spells in addition to fireball and the best offensive spells in order to feel good about playing, as nothing compares to it in the game. It also brings with it this air of superiority where they are so apart from the world they inhabit and they like it that way, and they get this air of superiority about them, like they're som OP custom character in Skyrim that just breaks the world and that's the way they like it.

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>>94632383
A lot of people want to play hogwarts or their favorite magic caster anime with an all caster-party centered on magic dominating all and being pervasive everywhere with 9 level spells being shot out of their ass every two sconds, and in such a context they could redicule martials all day, but they're stuck with dnd with half the book being martials and half the players wanting to be martials, but they insist on imposing their vision of the world in such a context anyway. If such games became the norm they could be contained to those games, and people who actually want martials to exist and thrive in their world with less magic everywhere could play something else.

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Magic like people thought it played out in real human history was absolutely horrific and I’m surprised people don’t do it more like that.

It’s like if a house gets fucking dropped on your head while you sleep.

The ability to take out a person (they suffer a heart attack, their head randomly explodes, etc) from the safety of your basement like typical ritual offense magic was purported to work (coincidence *wink wink*) in history is 100x more terrifying than any gunman or sniper could ever hope to be.

Not only does this remove the identity of the perpetuator, it is an insurmountable offense without its own (another user/usage of magic) to defend against it. Magic is just a spontaneous "You Died". No massive displays of kinetic energy necessary. You just die. You just get possessed by the Rape Demon.

Physics is faster than you. Physics does not fuck around. Magic is unfair physics. This is why people went to priests and witch-doctors, as only magic will defend against magic. Only bullshit will defend against bullshit. Magic always functions like some sort of arbitrary game, too, so it obviously runs under arbitrary bullshit. To survive magic depends on the arbitrary.

You’re not meant to prepare for a thing you don’t see coming. That’s magic. It will fall under “wow!” tier logic, which includes fucking people over spontaneously, since magic has a lot to do with haste (“I want him dead NOW” “I want it to rain NOW”).

The ability to look at a person and see them spontaneously explode or combust is also incredibly horrific, if you want to remove the ritual aspect altogether, even if only from the viewer/s perspective ("the more effortless the sorcery appears, the more men fear the sorcerer" - Melisandre, A Game of Thrones).

I don't know why you think magic should come in projectile form or involve the unnecessary waving of the hands. That's not very magical.

tldr version: The Virgin Dodgeball Fireball vs The Chad Spontaneous Combustion

>>94632383
There's nerds that want to pretend to be strong and that be the best.
There's nerds that want to pretend to be smart and that be the best.
Their desires are necessarily incomparable if they want to be the best all the time.
That's it.

bump

>>94748612
>If you want a world where it's all about only realistic human performance, then just scale down the magic
no, fuck you

>>94748612
>Literally why is this still a discussion?
At this point I suspect that its one anon that is needless incendiary who tries to provoke fights to keep the thread bumped.

>>94752106
Sir, this pasta I was served is stale. I'm not paying for this.

>>94726181
nope wizards do everything stay mad

>>94752106
>tldr version: The Virgin Dodgeball Fireball vs The Chad Spontaneous Combustion
Kek

Try putting a grenade inside a knight’s suit of armor. See if they survive it. Magic is kind of like that.

>>94754925
then go play hogwarts in an all mage party setting where you can own the jocks all day or shut the fuck up

>>94674121
5e is the only edition that managed to balance this

Concentration mechanic prevented buff stacking

Spell damage was kept low

Martials generally out DPS casters

Casters are more for utility and crowd control than damage

The most strictly optimized 5e party all takes stealth proficiency however, and uses ranged weapons or magic. They will have a ranger using pass without trace (your entire party will sneak on anything CR appropriate) and goodberry rest casting. They will also have a wizard using mage hand and animated servant to open doors.

This aids ass thread has been alive for almost 3 whole motherfucking weeks how much could you possibly argue about this same bait topic. Holy fuck I hate all of you

>>94760988
Not at all.

>>94763488
At least it's almost over.

>>94763829
Um, yes. Try dodging a spontaneous combustion. Try dodging a heart attack. Did you not read >>94752106

>>94764217
>At least it's almost over.
This singular thread is almost over.
The retarded caster versus "martial" shitflinging will never be over, because retards will never play games which account for their own magic.

>>94763003
Tbh while people love to hate on 5th edition, I do have to give them credit for not making martials completely useless compared to casters. It's still not entirely balanced since casters have far more utility, but you can actually play a fighter without feeling like you're actively dragging your group down.
That's a big step up from 3.5, where fighter was intentionally written to be an unplayable trash to reward "system mastery", i.e. feeling smart because you figured out you should just play a wizard.

>>94751201
considering a regular thing dnd players complain about is that their sorcerer spell lists aren't as good as the wizards, and that they don't have every utility spell and every good damage spell availible to them, I don't think think anyone would accept that change. The game has put a lot of bad habits and expectations in them and now that would get a ton of backlash.

>>94766518
High level martial can dodge combustion, heart attack and child support at the same time

>>94766518
Done. Pretty easy. Anything else?

>>94751201
Good job, you made another class that no one will play.

>>94767567
It would be played by the same players who try and fill niches in party composition and end up playing healers 90% of the time. Now they can be a magical utility PC instead.

>>94768580
Nope.

>>94761619
no

>>94761619
lol seething martiallet

>>94767567
See, normal full casters would no longer exist. So you don't have a choice to play the omega class that fills every niche.

swing and a miss.