>>94699258
image is actually true, the Burn is in Daniels' future at the time of this scene so he has no reason to know about it re: temporal prime directive

that and very shortly in his own future time travel is outlawed, decades before the Burn

>>94699333
We have no context but I wonder how people in the 29th century treated the fact that the 31st century as largely a mystery. Maybe that's what caused the Temporal Wars in the first place, nobody knew what happened and everyone was making sure they'd be the one coming out the other side in tact.

Someone a while back posted a design for a kind of electro-rapier, it was just a short cord that would unspool from the handle and then it becomes rigid from the charge, someone a while back said it would be a cool melee weapon for the federation and they're right.

>>94700132
Federation weapon would need electricity because it's pretty pointless if it has no stun function

>>94699333
Or you can just take the grace that Lower Decks died for and ignore the shitty Alt-verse that managed to forget that there are alternatives to dilithium/anti matter for warp despite it being a foundational part of their first couple of seasons.
>you know the guys who's grand contribution to the multiverse is that the evil mirror universe is physically 'dark'

>>94700132
Rapier is pretty intuitive and fit people can pick it up fairly fast. Should be able strap a 'zapperstrip' on that badboy to give it stun while not getting too close. I'd like to see more STO weapons / uniforms make it into regular trek. I need a Pump Action Disruptor.

>Rutherford overclocks his electro-rapier and makes a lightsaber
>Mouse lawyers invade the alpha quadrant

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>>94701621
Boimler would 100% try and use it to rescue his friends and slice his own foot off.

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>>94701742
Took me ages to find the right gif, but this is Boimler energy. Confidence leading directly to screaming.

>94701742
>94701759
Go away. If nobody cared about the last season of that, much less they´re going to do it now.

Pulaski was good

>>94701742
>>94701759
The fuck is this soi slop and why are you shitting up my board with it?

>>94702900
Hey, I like Skeleton Crew.

>>94702885
I sometimes wonder how things would have gone if she stayed on and Crusher didn't return. Like I can't imagine her freaking out about taking command of the Enterprise in "Brothers".

>>94703313
"Descent", rather. Different Lore episode.

>>94703313
I don't think as she was in S2 she would have taken command in "Descent". She'd very much quote the rulebook and point out that as CMO with no other command experience it was inappropriate for her to be given command, as was offloading the entire crew to look for one guy on a hostile Borg-controlled world.

>>94703591
There's years to get to that point. Who knows what could have happened.

>Data forced to assume command when Picard and Riker are gone.
>Worf's gone too and Geordi is either gone or desperately needed in engineering
>Data requests Pulaski serve as his First Officer
>Impressed by her performance, encourages her to take the command exam.

>>94703591
>>94703759
I don't think Crusher was ever mentioned as having actual command experience prior to Descent and later Thine Own Self, they just popped the Commander pips on her in the first episode without thinking about it. Pulaski could've gotten a similar retcon, since she was also a Commander.

>>94703841
According to memory alpha at least there's not even any reference to Beverly serving on a ship before the E-D

>>94699333
there is no 'burn'. there is no fucking slave army of robots. fuckoff star trek hating plagiarist.

>>94701505
>forget that there are alternatives to dilithium/anti matter for warp
Oh it's MUCH dumber than that.

Dilithium isn't necessary for warp, it was used in matter/antimatter reactors that POWERED the warp drive (as well as the rest of the ship). The warp core is like an engine, you can power the "warp wheels" with other stuff theoretically (but the warp drive is the biggest power draw by far, so calling it a warp core makes sense).

Do you know what this actually means? As in, the implications of clean running, consistent power sources that turned matter directly into energy?

These things wouldn't have been just on ships. Planets would have been covered in them, tied into their power grids, using waste or air to power everything on the planet.

The burn wouldn't have just killed spaceships, it would've sterilized every major world or settlement of a species using dilithium matter/antimatter reactors in an instant.

It's fucking retarded even before we talk about the "bUt tImE tRaVeL iS iLlEgAl nOw" asspull bullshit. The Temporal Cold War was about protecting the past - THE WHOLE POINT WAS THE TIME TRAVEL GENIE WAS OUT OF THE BOTTLE FOR GOOD IN THE FUTURE! But we can just make genies illegal, apparently, and they'll stuff themselves right back in. How thoughtful of them.

>>94705250
>>94701505
its even worse than worse than that.

romulans use artificial singularities as their 'engines' hawking radiation and gravimetric distortions of space time in order to energise warp coils.

the federation use matter/ antimatter smashers. ALL the dilithium intermix chamber does is REGULATE the reaction. without dilithium, you simply have to build a reaction chamber that's about 10-20 times bigger, and considering how HUGE most starfleet vessels ARE by that time, that's merely 6-12 months in space dock refit. big fucking whoop. and when you combine THAT fact with the improvements in metals and material science between the united earth era and the 24th C, that reactor shielding and reaction chamber can be far smaller than it used to be, making a dilithium-less warp core entirely, pathetically feasible. the only reason the federation uses dilithium chambers is for simplicity and ease of access.

>>94705343
Yeah dilithium is basically the gearbox of spaceships.
It was the equivalent of saying that the gearbox of every running engine exploded at the same time, and as a result the USA collapsed into anarchy.

That still wasn't as dumb as Picard saying that no-one in the entire galaxy did AI research anymore because of 'galactic treaty'
I don't know what was dumber about that; the assumption that every other galactic power would obey that, or the assumption that none of the undiscovered species can't be working on it either.

>>94706110
its even sillier. its like the DSG clutchless manual gearbox of ship engines. you can still just install a manual gearbox. or even an automatic. you just can't have the triple plate, 16 caliper hydraulic DSG you beaut supertech gearbox. BIG fucking whoop. instead of flappy paddles to change gears on your manual, you're going to have to actually use the clutch! and drive stick! THE HORROR! or sclep out for an automatic and jsut deal with some spongy, sluggish gear changes and a SLIGHT loss of torque and power. wooooooo.

2025 was here, shit's still on fire

>>94706375
We do not live in the prime timeline, alas.

>>94705250
>THE WHOLE POINT WAS THE TIME TRAVEL GENIE WAS OUT OF THE BOTTLE FOR GOOD IN THE FUTURE
Make no sense but Im happy they did, Im not interested in the entire world being built around the fact that time travel is so casual children are learning it in school. Sounds like a mess. Skipping over it was fine.

>>94706440
temporal cold war is the most boring and gay metaplot of all treks and easily the worst part of enterprise. if enterprise replaced every temporal cold war episode with another andorean/vulcan ep or even, god forbid, another founding species conflict episode it would have been a much better show, even with Berman being unable to come up with interesting characters beyond "guy who is uptight" "guy who is too relaxed" and his favorite - "boobs"

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The time travel thing could have been so easily been resolved instead by the Q going 'No more Time Travel until you grow up and stop primarily using it to fuck each other over'.

There. Fixed. Actual god level entity group changes the rules cos they're sick of this shit. And maybe you can work around it with say a guardian of forever or something if you really need to. But it fits so much cleaner than lol banned it.

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>>94699258
So, when you actually figure out this stuff be sure to not tell the assholes keeping the info from you. Total power tripping jerks.

>>94706440
>thinks you can just "skip over" a time period with time travel when anyone inside it can just skip right back to you
The Temporal Cold War is a conflict that could never actually, fully end. You ALWAYS have to have somebody ready with time travel devices and temporal shielding to respond to somebody getting fucky with the past.

Like, say, somebody putting a sad alien on the planet with the "blow up all the dilithium" button on it that somehow nobody noticed in AN ENTIRE MILLENNIUM OF DILITHIUM USE.

Because STD's writers couldn't help themselves when they weren't allowed to get fucky with Star Trek's past anymore, they decided to detonate the future for shock value. Because goddammit, if somebody made the Federation before their precious OCs (since apparently ignoring that ENT and TOS already covered that gets your show yeeted into the future), they'll break it to pieces and give their OCs credit for making a new, BETTER Federation. No, not by making it actually better, silly - by retconning the old one to be evil and stupid!

It's so much like the shittiest of edgy fanfiction it hurts.

The Burn is the kind of thing that somebody would violate the Temporal Prime Directive for because it would save literally trillions of people, and all they have to say to the past is "stop using dilithium" and the Burn fizzles. IIRC they could just shut off reactors during the Burn to be safe from it, so a specific shutoff period wouldn't even require an infrastructure change - just stock up on battery packs, remotely run a few small, isolated reactors to determine when the Burn has run its course, and restart.

But no, got to sell the new Discovery season with shock value clickbait mystery box marketing and ruin the setting to do it. They somehow learned exactly the wrong things from JJTrek.

>>94706657
It was terrible. I still think STD handled it even worse with nothing but throwaway lines, but that's more a problem of STD's premise being contagiously retarded.

>>94705168
eat shit, nobody

>>94707222
cry more, CBS shill

The burn as a plot device in the present (space travel becomes more rare, federation crumbles into many points of light, heroes must reunite the points of light) is actually pretty cool. I like STD future as a setting. And I could ALMOST go even further, I could almost say "This is a good future for the Star Trek setting", the problem is that whenever they take some specific thing from old trek and bring it to the forefront it's always awful.

>>94707247
The problem with the Burn is it, like every other STD idea, is just a shittier ripoff of something thought of earlier. In its case, it's a ripoff of the concept for an unproduced Trek cartoon where Omega rips in subspace is what causes the Federation to fragment, which is a much more plausible idea that doesn't break the pre-existing lore.

>>94707267
>ripoff of something thought of earlier.
I don't think that any trek show should lose points for that, I think they lose points for not knowing what dilithium means. In fact I'll usually make the opposite argument, they should have used shitty ripoff breen instead of real breen, they should have used shitty ripoff trills instead of real trills, they should have made their own new variety of never-before-mentioned bullshittium and then told us that the new bullshittium is the only cost-effective means of producing black holes and antimatter.

>>94707307
It's the "shittier" part that's the problem. If they wanted to reuse the idea, fine. But they made it shittier because they don't know Trek beyond skimming wiki articles.

>>94707247
>>94707267
>>94706369
To be fair that whole 'and then the feddys went all madmax because a universal constant changed and everyone had to cope.

That actually sounds decent and interesting moving everyone away from galaxy class and generational ships into the mariocart equivalents for the galaxy as all the stuff taken for granted opens up new ways to travel and stuff.

Just a sin that we've put more thought into it then an entire writers room. A very well done death race 2901 with tons of new ship designs more space combat as maybe tank warfare instead of naval warfare. Etc. It got legs I could run that campaign.

>>94706741
A Q did it is boring and it's overuse would ruin the entire race. The Q are watching and judging humanity, but they shouldnt be babysitting humanity. I'd say it's more "trek" that we worked it out ourselves.

>>94707001
>The Temporal Cold War is a conflict that could never actually, fully end.
I agree, which is why Im glad they just skipped over it. The Burn wasnt the end of the war, it was a thing they added after, and pretty shit, but I respect them escalating the war into something that had to end.

>they'll break it to pieces and give their OCs credit for making a new, BETTER Federation. No, not by making it actually better, silly - by retconning the old one to be evil and stupid
To be fair, Discovery leans on dystopia but they never make out the Federation to be evil, that's what Picard does.

>>94707247
Does it? I dont mind the Discovery future conceptually, other than what caused it and nobody being smart enough to figure it out. But I thought the Data android from S5 was good, and I even liked the Breen stuff

>>94707651
>but I respect them escalating the war into something that had to end
I don't think you understand.

Do you know what happens to a time travel device when it's not running? Or to a time travel device design?

It moves into the future, because it still moves through time the long way.

There's no "skipping over" - time travel is just a part of the setting, and literally the only way to keep the timestream from being co-opted or outright destroyed by anyone in the future at all is to have your own time cops preventing it. You have to have somebody monitoring the whole scope of the timestream for modifications, forever, or you'll have somebody eventually jumping back and screwing the future to their advantage.

It can't end as long as TIME EXISTS once that genie gets let out.

I get that you don't like it but at least don't be as retarded about it as the STD writers.

>>94707960
legitimately one of the best explanations for the burn is that the DIS future is an abandoned timeline branch that was cut off from the main stream when somebody went back into the past and set up the dilithium planet bomb

time travel only doesn't exist there because whichever party used time travel to kill trillions with the burn keeps erasing anyone who tries to stop the burn

>>94707651
>even liked the Breen stuff
oh damn you're a SHILL shill
i kid (slightly) but i always preferred the idea the breen were gaseous or liquid in their suits after rewatching DS9 and seeing how the female changeling interacts with them - she doesn't treat them the way she treats any 'solid,' and it feels like it's more than just her being desperate
>>94707247
nah
it becomes clearer why it's a retarded place to take the setting when you realize it's just jj-trek all over again
>what if i destroyed something beloved for spectacle to sell a pointlessly edgy 'mystery box' story
the better way to do it is to have a part of the Federation be cut off somehow, and have your 'rebuild the noblebright setting from the ashes' storyline there
it should never be the whole setting consumed for your pet jj-plot even if you do that plot well IMO
it damages too much

>>94707651
discovery's federation and starfleet are so evil that an OBVIOUS mirror universe psychopath Terran fits in seamlessly and passes for years and years.

that's as anti-trek as you canget. since whenever mirror universe people 'infiltrate' in REAL trek series, they're caught pretty much immediately.

>>94703080
And you doubtless also enjoy buggering young boys, but we're not interested in hearing about it.

>>94708688
Which works great now that Shitscovery has been neatly folded away into an alternate quantum reality. It's annoying they're still claiming PICkled Old Codger and We Have TOS At Home but that can just be ignored.

I wonder if this round of youtuber cope about new owners finally turning the ship around has any merit, god it would be nice if it did instead of just being bullshit again.

>>94709651
*still claiming PIC and SNW are part of canon despite clearly originating from the same poison fruit as STD but that etc

>>94709654
>>94709651
It would be so great if STD's tineline wound up like what happened to the Novel timeline and got wiped out of existence.

>>94708744
Technically only that one main character Breen is solid, the rest think it's gross to do that. I think it's a fair compromise. To be fair other than that they went really safe, they basically just changed the name to Imperium, made future helmets and gave them giant ships. Hard to fuck up when you go very basic.

> to sell a pointlessly edgy 'mystery box' story
A plague on modern Trek. I knew PIC season 3 would have been shit when they started setting one up

>>94709654
Hard to separate SNW with the Lower Decks finale when Lower Decks also went back to SNW directly

>>94709494
to be fair it could be the specific ship, maybe the Discovery just has the reputation that their crew are all really edgy, just like the Cerritos has the reputation of being chaotic. Only the Cerritos's reputation gets enhanced by their positive results while for everyone, they just saw the Discovery be so edgy that they all got themselves killed.

>>94709833
>to be fair it could be the specific ship, maybe the Discovery just has the reputation that their crew are all really edgy, just like the Cerritos has the reputation of being chaotic. Only the Cerritos's reputation gets enhanced by their positive results while for everyone, they just saw the Discovery be so edgy that they all got themselves killed.


nope. because in real star trek, both crews from those shows would have been stood down, relieved of their ranks and placed into treatment until they could be rehabilitated.

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Headcanontard is back again, here to tell us that half of "real Trek" (which he hasn't actually watched, even though he'll lie and say he has) doesn't actually count as canon and mentioning it is nitpicking, but if you refute one of his factually wrong statements it means you're a shill for all of CBSTrek (which he also hasn't watched).

>>94710055
one of the only good things about Kurtzman trek is it's not NEARLY 'half of Trek' by any metric whatsoever even when you lump it all together

>>94710055
go away kuntman. go be a faggot retard elsewhere and shit up some other IP.

>>94709833
>fair compromise
no it was a violation to show us their faces for something that trivial. they just wanted to market off of 'we finally see a breen'
their breen face is just 'generic human with bubblegum on face number 50,000'
it's such a waste
so much of the stupid stuff in DIS is basically clickbait writing shoved into a show because they were stuck in a 5-year contract and absolutely desperate for ayesnthey could not for the life of them earn
it's got to be one of the most 'no thoughts, head empty (but also extremely, downright MILITANTLY gay)' writers rooms i've ever seen

>>94710119
>ayesnthey
*eyes they

>>94710119
nobody cares about the breen you terok noron

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>>94711936
>mfw the Breen have always been my favorite Star Trek species because I thought mysterious beings in sealed suits were cool as a kid

>>94710034
You are wrong.

>>94707267
Wasn't there an episode of TNG about warp drives' wake fucking up subspace? Couldn't they just have expanded on that?

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In regards to Breenface, writers coming into existing mysteries need to sometimes realize the mysteries were created without an answer in mind and should stay that way. The sheer hubris of some writers thinking they can answer such mysteries in a satisfying way is obnoxious

>>94712470
They could've done a lot of things.

>>94710055
I wasn't here for last thread but I went back and read some of it and this nigga is hilarious. I love how he kept coming up with newer saltier ways of saying "Damn you're right".

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>>94712470
Episode ended with a standard "Federation will investigate the problem and solve it" line, and it was only offhandedly referenced one more time in TNG, with DS9 and VOY pretending it never happened. So the common fan assumption from what I've seen is that it was relatively localized and the Federation did in fact deal with it.
Omega molecules on the other hand are such an obvious problem that the Federation drops everything and neutralizes them the moment a single molecule is detected, so they're a known quantity in lore that can be used for catastrophic scenarios like that.

>>94712513
Portraying a breen with his helmet off is like saying that ferangi aren't greedy and have never been greedy. Because being mysterious IS their thing. That said, you could answer the mystery in a satisfying way as long as your rendition made them seem weirder and more mysterious in the long run, the important thing is that you need to add more mysteries than you solve, what you give to future trek writers in that situation needs to be much greater than what you've taken. And they didn't give us anything. STD breen are generic space villains and they suck.

>>94712970
It's weird how no streaming Trek has referenced Omega Molecules. No throwaway joke in references: the show. No relevance to what's basically Voyager 2. No mention in the shows set in the time period we're told the Federation discovered Omega.

>>94712513
They won't satisfy everybody, but I think the idea that nobody had seen their faces under the suits tracks the most with them not actually just being dudes in suits. We don't hear that Kira has seen their faces after taking the suits, and there's empty space in there, so I'd always thought it was most likely they were gaseous at standard temperatures - as in, take them out of the suit's protective systems, and they literally boil away.

The problem isn't that they tried to answer the mystery, the problem is that making it a cultural thing is both the worst way to go about it... while also being the only idea the DIS writers in particular would have had. It shouldn't be a cosmetic choice. It's too consistent even under duress. It's also another example of the ways DIS "explores" alien cultures primarily by flanderizing them to extremes and consuming entire species of individuals with their own shallow portrayal.

The only reason DIS fans don't seethe about how shallow these things are is because they aren't pastiches of real human cultures. They'll of course bring up one-off insensitive stuff (that was tossed away like a live grenade once people reacted) in older Trek, but that's because the only method they have to promote DIS is to try and drag every other Trek show down to its level (i.e. "you have to tolerate the universally stupid thing I like because the stuff you like was stupid a couple of times").

Also, losing the snouts was a mistake.

>>94712470
It was solved almost immediately by limiting warp speed until a solution to avoid the damage to subspace was found. They responded to the problem immediately before it got out of hand, canonically, because that's how the actual Federation would respond to a thinly veiled climate change allegory.

Still a workable idea, but better to make it not the Federation's fault. DIS and PIC writers using the Federation as their "thing today = bad" allegorical punching bag is a foundational rot in both series.

>>94712513
There are ways to do it, though what is satisfying is, of course, subjective and ultimately there will always be people who think just the act of touching such a mystery is itself a violation of something sacred to them. You'll never win such people over.

That said, I do think it's possible to make it at least more palatable. For instance the jelly faces MAY have been intriguing if it is linked to them being a kind of proto-Changeling, a race on the verge of evolving beyond the need for solid physicality, and thus viewed the Changelings as cousins. You can deepen their connection to the Dominion War that way. Also reveal that when they die, like Changelings their bodies undergo rapid metamorphosis crumbling into a kind of dry, inert matter. That would explain why even when they are killed for their uniforms their faces are never truly seen. You could even expand this a bit. They made an aliance with the Changelings because they've reached a kind of biological impasse and joined for access to the Changelings impressive ability for biological engineering. The was is lost, the Changelings withdraw back to the Gamma. Maybe they didn't really have an answer or just a short term solution, and this is why the Breen were interested in the Progenitor tech. A species with the ability to insinuate themselves into life across the galaxy might have an answer. Hell, they could have used it as the chance for a Starfleet Moment where despite the Breen failing to secure their prize the Federation promises to work with them to figure out a solution.

And that's just off the top of my head. Sadly the writer's room is pretty deficient overall. Like PIC season 3 when the ship kept experiencing power surges WHILE they were having a power crisis but it took more than one episode before someone realized, 'Hey, maybe we can find a way to harness these power surges to solve our problem!". Fucking pathetic.

>>94713145
>It's also another example of the ways DIS "explores" alien cultures primarily by flanderizing them to extremes and consuming entire species of individuals with their own shallow portrayal.
You mean like TNG did to klingons and DS9 did to ferengi?

>>94714628
>the only method they have to promote DIS is to try and drag every other Trek show down to its level

>>94714669
lol

>>94714669
I'm not promoting DIS?

This has always been the thing I dislike the most about TNG+, it's unironically racist in a really stupid way that wouldn't hold up to five seconds of analysis. Ferengi especially is a joke, not just because it's a joke but because if a single person had ever spent a single second in a room with actual unashamed materialistic scum they could have made a compelling portrayal. They've tried to package two completely different and violently, vehemently opposed cultures as exactly the same thing and then throw on personal traits which contradict earlier (TNG) material in the dumbest and most handwavy possible way.

It's reasonable to say that DIS is stupid and that a lack of counterexamples is a failing that it has that older shows generally didn't, but the overall cultural flanderization has been part and parcel of everything outside of TOS since the moment worf appeared in TNG.

>>94714797
It wasn't worf, it was the first wrinkly klingons from the first movie, modern writers look back at that and say "Oh okay so new material can do whatever it wants at any time."

>>94712418
go fuck yourself, kuntman's personal asshole tongue-cleaner.

>>94715123
Cerritos is, if anything, less chaotic than the galaxy class enterprise
nta

>>94714797
I love TNG racism. Other civilizations have radically different points of view, sometimes what's good to them seems evil to you but also sometimes you can find common ground, deal with it bitch. But I also liked most of STD.

>>94710119
>their breen face is just 'generic human with bubblegum on face number 50,000'
I'll give you that, it sucks that they made them yet another humanoid alien

>>94712513
I dont think answering some questions is impossible, but you have to have the skill to pull it off, and the good will to be able to try.

I'm surprised more people arent mad at Discovery Breen but I think that people just dont really care about the show after season 3 so most of the takes you get of the later stuff is just from fans.

>>94714669
TNG Ferengi are really bad, dont have to be a Discovery fan to admit that. But in general most Trek shows are bad at this sort of thing, the only ones that consistently show some complexity in alien cultures is DS9 and Lower Decks

>>94714797
>>94716199
Star Trek will always be """racist""" in that degree by virtue of being a morality play. The fault of DIS and PIC isn't how they treat aliens, it's how they treat humans.

>>94716266
i disagree
i think those shows just hate everyone, and they especially hate anything that people liked before
i don't even really understand why, it's just unilaterally mean-spirited most of the time
i've heard with DIS it was because the guy in charge (who replaced the guy who had pitched DIS as what SNW became after that guy got booted by Kurtzman for whatever reason) hated older Trek for not being gay enough fast enough, but i'm unsure how true that is... or how that would manifest in something so misanthropic towards humans and aliens alike

>>94716199
>the only ones that consistently show some complexity in alien cultures is DS9 and Lower Decks
i don't know if i'd say 'only,' as ENT actually does this (not fantastically, but generally better than TNG or TOS handled Federation species in particular IMO), but i'd definitely agree that DS9 and LD are probably the best at it

>>94714797
I really don't get comments like this. First off, the Ferengi were basically ruined from the start. Rather infamously the actors were told to "jump up and down like crazed gerbils" and the actors played it up. Shimerman has actually been apologetic for how the species was initially portrayed, which set the tone for them from then on. He took the role of Quark to try to undo the damage, he said. And Quark, for all his antics, is still an effective Ferengi businessman and retains his criminal antics. He himself doesn't actively use violence, but he has no problem associating with people who do. And yet for people upset at this, they seem to forget that he's a CIVILIAN Ferengi. People might as well be made at depictions of the Romulan civilians in Reunification as being widely different than military and tal'shiar. Or civilian Cardies aren't quite as nasty as their military. I mean no fuck they're different! They SHOULD be different.

While Rom and Nog are quite different, they're treated as exceptions from the rest. Ishka shows a family tradition of deviancy from Ferengi norms, and yet she's also a quintessential Ferengi exceptional at business. Later we learn that the Ferengi people are shifting towards something a bit less brutal and by LD women are fully integrated as part of their workforce and open society. But even Rom, being a kinder gentler Nagus, still is able to wheel and deal around a Starfleet admiral (if he can get shit past Quark an admiral was probably child's play).

I don't know. Haven forbid they allow specieswide character growth, similar to the Klingons being open to peace with the Federation. What really dropped the ball was PIC. The Romulan Republic is exactly the same as their Empire, right down to the same treaties somehow still applying.

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This ties into my last reply but I think currently, the race in the worst state in the franchise is the Romulans, we have no idea what's going on with them and most of their lore additions have been kinda shit. Only thing I'd say is kinda cool (and I'll hand it to discovery for it) is that they seemed more willing to play ball in terms of reunification in the far future. I'll also give it to Andorians for still being such a blank slate.

The ones in the best state is maybe the Orions, definitely the Ferengi, to a lesser extent the Pakleds, and maybe the Klingons if its been long enough that early Discovery has been washed away by now.

>>94716266
I get what you mean here but it can still be done in a way that's to its detriment, like TNG S1 tipping over being enlightened to the crew just being snobby. And the aforementioned DS9 being able to tell morality play Trek stories without flattening the antagonists. Lower Decks kind of gets away with it too by making the stories a lot more universal so everyone gets to be involved in learning about themselves, the fact that the show positioned itself to be able to make "Vulcan Mariner" and "Klingon Boimler" that go through similar issues within their own contexts so successfully is good.

>>94718954
I havent seen ENT yet but I hear they do Vulcans well and at least tried to expand Orions.

>>94718973
I dont know if it's just me but PIC Romulans just feels like a race that doesnt make any sense, that level of distrust in all aspects of life down to false names and fake doors and the like doesnt sound like something that could make such a large faction rivaling the Federation. Sometimes how the military acts shouldnt be grafted unto civilians

>>94719597
>I havent seen ENT yet but I hear they do Vulcans well
There are times when they do. ENT's quality is extremely variable, probably more so than even Voyager's.

>>94719597
i think they mostly do vulcans better - they are more "pure" logic than in fedy era stuff. They intentionally hold back humans, break their own treaties to secretly spy on andoreans, and generally look down their noses at the other species, while slowly coming around the human virtues of trust, compassion and optimism. it can get tiresome but it is great when played against andoreans

and then they go to the ~expanse~ and the show becomes voyager 2 meets the heckin dominion war

>>94718954
>i disagree
>i think those shows just hate everyone, and they especially hate anything that people liked before
>i don't even really understand why, it's just unilaterally mean-spirited most of the time
Your brainrot is so bad, holy shit, I hope I don't end up like this.

When ferangi want to appear threatening their default natural response should be to make creepy grasping hand gestures and jump up and down like gerbils. I want to see a scene where a ferangi civilian on feranginar does this to scare away a wild animal and it works. Then I want to see another scene with ferangi mercenaries heckling an alien (which they greatly outnumber), the alien should briefly return their aggressive display (but not by jumping up and down like a gerbil, just snarling and leering a bit, more like a normal aggressive alien) and then withdraw. Then the ferangi mercenaries should go nuts even harder because they scared him away.
Maybe even some third scene, where the ferangi is in a strange environment and he doesn't know what to do so he does the creepy-hands goblin dance and it appears to work out for him.
All along you contrast this with the idea that ferangi are clever little weasels and that they quickly pick up alien body language. So these days whenever a ferangi has to argue with a human he'll puff his chest out, and do sassy head-tilts, and punctuate his statements with little stomps, that's human/bajoran/cardassian stuff that the ferangi learned (but also he bares his teeth to much and squirms too much because he's still ferangi).

>>94720445

ok, commie faggot.

>>94720631
lol

>>94719597
>I dont know if it's just me but PIC Romulans just feels like a race that doesnt make any sense,
Apparently Romulan high command, or at least the Tal'Shiar and its super duper secret cousin the Taller'Shiar, were the ones who sacrificed Romulus they accounted for this and plotted to retain control as well. We did see certain senators who got fucked over hard, but the core ideals of the old Empire seem fully alive and well behind the scenes. Enough to snag an entire goddamn fleet of copy pasta ships.

Yeah, it sucks and is lazy, especially keeping the treaty that still keeps Starfleet from using cloaking devices. How the hell do they still have a treaty when it was with a now de facto defunct political entity? At least their civilians seem allowed to freely move about the Federation and they aren't all terrible (still mostly terrible characters though). Raffi's awful son married one. Not!Legolas joined Starfleet before presumably dying on the way back to his home planet. Picard's goofy Romulan roommates/caretakers.

>>94720703
>>94719597
Taller shi'ar is mega dumb. If you have to think about it you can pretend that the dominion ambush took out a lot of tal'shiar leadership which lead to a bunch of secret political shakeups which resulted in the anti-robot psychos achieving enough influence to carry out their psychotic plan. But the way it's presented is supposed to be like fighting robots was always the main point of the romulan race and most romulans just didn't know it. For me it goes back to the basic idea of giving to trek lore vs taking from trek lore, they weren't really thinking about what future writers might want to do with romulans.
The thing is the rest of the romulan nutrek lore is actually pretty good. I love picard's romulan nannies, I love the sincerity-worshiping warrior monks, I love the false-door stuff and the cultural trappings of the admonition, I love the future reunification with vulcan. And I'd love to see how DS9's writers would have addressed any of that, but alas.

>>94720880
>I love picard's romulan nannies
agreed
>I love the sincerity-worshiping warrior monks
controversially, also agreed
>I love the false-door stuff and the cultural trappings
not my thing, kinda shitty low trust society. I guess it's suitably alien. I like the thing about having many different names though
>I love the future reunification with vulcan.
yeah that fucking rules

>>94720703
>he core ideals of the old Empire seem fully alive and well behind the scenes. Enough to snag an entire goddamn fleet of copy pasta ships.
I like the idea that the empire split in two with half being into continuing business as usual and the other half being more of a real democracy that's a lot more chill, but we just havent seen this at all outside speculation and I think expanded universe stuff

>>94720880
I honestly don't see how Oh and her idiot followers weren't immediately executed for this entire debacle:

>fucks up a prophecy
>fucks over the capitol world
>fucks up losing a cush job at Starfleet HQ
>fucks up with her entire fleet and has to limp back home with green balls

There is no way in hell they are so powerful and entrenched in Romulan society they can survive revealing this level of incompetence. Or in any sanely written series. In PIC? They're probably fine.

As for Picard's caretakers they weren't bad, but it was weird as fuck how they bumped the dude off between seasons so Picard could move in on his girl, who was much younger than he is. You still got it, John Luck Pickered.

>>94720445
>muh brainrot
are you going to substantiate this by refuting it? brainrot should be easy to refute
unless you just toss that word around like a mindless reactionary

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>>94709654
Picard may be crap, but it's crap that remained in continuity with TNG. At least it was a somewhat better ending to that era than Nemesis if you ignore 2/3rds of it.

>>94721329
Picard couldn't even remain in continuity with itself, let alone TNG. About the nicest thing you can say compared to Nemesis is Deanna only got physically assaulted instead of mentally?

>>94720551
I recall Quark did the classic Ferengi his a few times in the early seasons. There's one in particular... I believe it's in the episode with the Gamma Quadrant refugees who think Bajor is the holy land only for Bajor to go, "We don't want these religious whackos here." Just kidding with the setup, but, yeah, Bajor didn't want any of that. The boy who I think steals a ship later gets in a fight with Nog and Quark intercedes with the, "Better make myself look big!" Red Dwarf moment. Shame they can't do a bullfrog throat similar to Denobulon face puffery, just to fit with the toad theme.

>>94718973
What I liked about the LD episode on Ferenginar is that it only nudged the plot along, without resolving matters way too quickly. Ferengi society is better than it was, but still clearly as greedy and capitalistic as ever. I also liked Rom using his childlike guile to outmaneuver the admiral, and it's also fitting this was just a test to prove the Federation were negotiators worthy of Ferengi attention. Hell, I like that Boimler spent the entire time eating overpriced junk food and binging Ferengi television. The part I didn't like is that Freeman's role seemed way too easy. She saw through Rom from the start, and her only real opposition was the milksop admiral who was desperate to make the negotiations work. I know some people are going to hate that I suggest this, but I wish she'd called up Mariner to at least complain and let Mariner give her the clues as to what Rom was plotting. I know, I know, "you want Mariner to save the day!?" It's not that, it's because she was assigned to DS9 and surely interacted with Rom. I'd have liked a nod towards this and that her experience proves useful in providing insight into Rom's character. It's a minor enough point, overall I loved the shit out of the episode, especially the Federation Experience bar. Great nod to real life.

>>94721416
>TNG
>continuity

>Data
>constructed 2336
>discovered/activated 2338
>meets Riker 2364
>claims to be class of '78
>cannot use contractions
>Encounter at Farpoint
>DATA: No sir. But at your age, sir, I thought you shouldn't have to put up with the time and trouble of a shuttlecraft.
>shouldn't
>DATA: I can't see as well as Geordi, sir, but so far the material seems rather very ordinary.
>can't

>>94721416
nta and I don't have a dog in this race, I'm just going to say, since she came up, I hate that Deanna suddenly jumps behind the helm and pilots the ship to save Riker and the others. So much bullshit. Yes, by all means, have her sense her imzadi and point the way but piloting the ship through the interior of a Borg ship was already a a task they said only Data could perform, and now the damn thing is exploding at the same time! I get it, you want a big damn hero moment, then for some reason didn't spend ten seconds to say, "Oh and by the way Ro Laren and Shelby are fine and recovering in Starfleet medical which is why they can't show up on camera." Don't just say, "Well we wanted them to survive, but we were too cheap and didn't bother filming it, so lol they dead I guess." Yeah, no, it's clear they didn't give a shit and only said that to try to fend off the fan criticism for bumping off two of the strongest female characters from TNG.

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time for sexy shipposting to scare off the nati0trek fuckheads.

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anti-trek B-Gone TM

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a flying starbase you say?

I really liked the gimmick early Lower Decks was sold with - Second Contact and reexploring old ground. Wish it leaned more into inter Federation politics than it did.

I'd like to see more of Starbase 80 though. Honestly the finale notwithstanding, that and the Inner Light riff were my favorite episodes of the final season

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>>94707247
I felt like the futureverse had missed potential.
The Federation regained its strength too quickly and the Emerald Chain fell too quickly.
They could have explored the dynamics more of a Federation-less galaxy and how drastically that shakes up the political landscape of that era - and there were kernels of good ideas like Earth itself no longer being a Fed world----idk, it just felt like a missed opportunity to reintroduce the same status quo so quickly. Stuff like the Bajorran-Cardassian-Human character was cool though. Cardassians make everything cooler

>>94707651
>To be fair, Discovery leans on dystopia but they never make out the Federation to be evil, that's what Picard does.

Did Picard? First episode or two maybe, but it pulled its punches and blamed everything on the evil Romulan cult. First season might have advertised itself as critiquing the Federation but it was really scared to commit to the bit. Was no DS9, or hell even TNG. I'd kill for a show that actually critiques/deconstructs the Federation, but I'd never define Picard as that show

>>94718973
No, no they did NOT fuck with my boys the Romulan Republic
God damnit, they were fucking PERFECT in STO.

>>94722243
one of std and pickles many, many sins. turning romulans Extra extra retarded and extra extra evil. because people super cereal LOVED the romulans being insane fucktards in nemesis.

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here. have a sexy Endeavour-class warship c2409.

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talents if you don't know them on this one. but it doesn't adjust the numbers properly.

>>94722243
They didn't really touch on the Republic at all. The mentioned Romulan nation in Picard is the "Romulan Free State" and is vaguely implied to be a front for the Tal Shiar. Then in Discovery Unification happened at some point but in the dumbest way imaginable, with all of the Romulans going to live on Vulcan and the whole planet apparently teetering on the brink of civil war.

sometimes you decide to re-watch voyager for a bit and then you get to the episode where it turns out neelix has been dating a literally pre pubescent 1 year old who is now preggers. and it really just makes you wonder - who was hornier, Berman or Robbenberry?

>>94723302
Roddenberry was hornier. Berman might have been a bigger pervert but that's debatable.

>>94723302
Roddenberry was hornier but he at least ostensibly wanted to keep things consensual between adults. Berman is more of the skeezy Hollywood type.

>>94723302
Rodd, by a country mile. Berman didn't have the sand to bag prime Nichols or Barrett, let alone both at the same time. And all of his shit was just "what if there was a species of mayflies you could fuck?" or "what if a woman was so fucked up she had to wear a skintight suit for medical reasons?" Run of the mill jackoff territory. Shit anyone could come up with.
Roddenberry had that real depraved attitude. "Let's make the Ferengi short with huge cocks and make them ugly as sin. Oh and let's make them take women as slaves. Hot women. Women who have to be naked. And one of them will be my wife. And while we're on the subject, she'll be getting naked for other reasons. Cultural reasons." That's the kind of guy you sit down to talk to so you're less likely to see him crankin his hog.

I'm going to rant, it's going to be slightly unhinged.

People who try to pick apart the Federation's economy and society and claim Star Trek's future "doesn't work" and so the show is bad based on Current Year understandings of economics, philosophy, and psychology should be literally not-in-Minecraft-actually-IRL killed by public stoning after spending a minimum of six months in a torture chamber so monstrous it would make the edgy Vampire The Masquerade campaign of a 90's goth kid look tame by comparison. And it's not that their opinion is wrong - though it is - or that their logic is flawed - which it is - but that they express such a colossally, monumentaly stupid point of view *while acting like they're being super smart*.

The sheer Dunning-Kruger smugness of it all is enough to make you physically, violently ill. And the worst part is even when you prove them wrong, which is trival, they will simply withdraw behind inane
>wow dude why do you care so much it's just a TV show lol
and pretend they won anyway.

Someone will no doubt challenge me on the trivial point, so here you are: Let's stipulate to begin with for the sake of argument that literally every single criticism these braindead neolib or conservatard morons put forward is correct. Humanity can never change. Power hierarchy based on dominance dynamics are genetic and can never be overcome with reason. Capitalism is the final, unavoidable, desireable endpoint of human thinking on economics(lol) and can never be altered or surpassed or even successfully mitigated. Our "real" future can never, ever, ever be like Star Trek's. This can still *never* be a valid justification for "and so the show is bad" or "and so the show shouldn't be taken seriously", because even if all of that is true and the society and economy of Star Trek is so unlikely as to be functionally impossible, it still functions as a conceit to allow the show to tell interesting stories. cont.

>>94723714
cont...

These mongos think they're the cleverest person in the room when in reality all they have is utterly pseud bullshit that's basically:
>Umm, ackshulee sweetums FTL travel is impossible so Warp Drive can never exist and the whole foundation is the show is impossible lol checkmate athiests

fin.

>>94723714
>>94723723
you Do realise that the federation is still capitalistic, right? but since they are post scarcity the only 'currency' is TIME. effort. so instead of 'how much is this going to cost us?' like capitalists would ask now followed by 'and what benefit will it bring?' federation bureaucrats, starfleet officers on boards and comittees etc, ask 'how much time and effort, how many people is this going to take, and what benefit is it going to bring us?'

the federation just also comes with humans who are aspirationally meritocratic and the glue that holds a multi species polity together. despite the other federation races also being aspirationally meritocratic.

the big difference is that while the federation is multi-species, they're a mono-culture. sure the vulcan engineer has his IDIC etc, but as a logical vulcan, he has voluntarily ascribed to the ethos of the Federation as a whole. the andorian scientist is a FEDERATION and STARFLEET officer first, and ANDORIAN last.

so while the humans HAVE taken great strides to better themselves, they're still fundementally bargaining away time , labor, not for money, but for the things that are far more value, that can't be quantified in terms of money. they trade their time labor and expertise, for renown, respect, the oppurtunity to achieve great things.

hell, every starfleet wants to get to do first contacts, to see new worlds, new civilisations, and life. but they'll happily chart gaseous anomalies for three years to GET that chance. like, what else they going to do? their three squares and a bed are sorted forever, so really, its all up to WHAT they want to do with their free time. picards family grows wines because they want to, not because they have to or nothing. sisko's dad runs a restaurant making cool as shit food just because he wants to have people eat his cool food and love coming to his place. it doesn't mean he still doesn't have to get to the restaurant at 4 in the morning and leave at 10pm.

>>94723723
seriously, even without warp drive. as merely a solar system polity, human race all by itself would be post scarcity -esque though. there is so much water metals and rare earths etc in the asteroid belt that JUST mining that would effectively make humans post scarcity. effectively infinite resources. then our only limit becomes FOOD production.

>>94723788
Not him but you have no clue what capitalism is, what you're describing is just basic economics regardless of which economic system it's in.

>>94723714
I mean, you're right, the show "does work" wrt to the federation and specifically and only the federation (not really almost any of the other ayys), except also not the federation because
>no robots
and
>no genetic engineering
and
>no medicine
and
>no diet/exercise/etc.
and
>etc.

but ignoring that, the federation is just a dystopia. It presents itself as a dystopia, it is a dystopia, and it works as a dystopia. Infact, it only works because it is a dystopia. What's unrealistic about the federation is just that it has never been overthrown, basically.

>>94723815
That's what capitalism is.
nta

>>94723979
Your schizo delusions are not relevant to the topic of discussion, nor to the definitions of economic systems.

>>94723847
This is genuinely one of the stupidest posts I've ever seen anywhere online. A world where every individual is free to pursue their own potential without need or want with almost no limitations all of which can be avoided by simply going to any of the other dozens of space cultures that exist is a dystopia? Capitalism is just basic economics? No fucking robots?

This has to be a troll, I refuse to believe anyone who's actually watch Trek could be this wrong about this much.

>>94723979
Have you ever read Adam Smith, out of interest? Because I'd bet you a buck that his writing has more in common with the "comintern pravda academics" conception of modern Capitalism than your fuckwitted views do.

>>94723788
>it's another episode of "does not comprehend that the Federation is more than just Starfleet"
>>94723847
>no robots
>no medicine
>no diet/exercise/etc.
what in the actual fuck are you on about
the only thing there you might have a point on is genetic engineering, except it's still legal when used to cure genetic diseases
exocomps weren't illegal, neither was the creation of Data and Lore

if this is a PIC/DIS thing i'm sorry but what you've been watching isn't really Trek

try something much better written, such as literally any other show or Star Trek media, up to and including the VOY episode 'Threshold'

i envy your blissful ignorance, you get to experience the good stuff for the first time

>>94724116
>>it's another episode of "does not comprehend that the Federation is more than just Starfleet"
Unrelated to the ongoing argument, I'd love a show where a bunch of civilians go out and explore for the hell of it. They're still enlightened Federation humans (and assorted aliens) but they're not part of Starfleet, have no official Federation backing, and can therefore get into the more common civilian aspects of Federation life.

>>94724116
>>it's another episode of "does not comprehend that the Federation is more than just Starfleet"
ah yes. sisko's dad and his restaurant. what an integral part of STARFLEET.
yes, clearly the STARFLEET would lose to the romulans if it wasn't for the picard family winery!
all those picards scoffing at jean luc for joining starfleet instead of staying on the winery with them are CLEARLY the most integral part of STARFLEET.

sisko's dad is clearly Admiral of Gumbo. and picard's relatives must be a part of the tactical assault Cabernet Savignon wing

>>94724136
well, we saw how that worked out for the 'crew' of the raven, didn't we?

there's a reason starfleet prefers even its civilians to at LEAST do their science aboard a galaxy class or an excelsior etc.

>>94723788
>the federation is still capitalistic, right? but since they are post scarcity the only 'currency' is TIME. effort.
What the fuck? Any and every system in history (including the non capitalist ones) has weighed the amount of time and difficulty something has compared to what they value as the benefit when considering pursuing it. The federation similarly does have to consider its resources.
Post-scarcity as applied to the federation doesn't mean "literally infinite resources to do everything all the time all at once". If your definition of capitalism is any society which can't literally provide infinite resources of all types instantly and universally, then I would say you're a madman

>>94724361
whoa. you are utternly retarded. that isn't even remotely what i wrote. you have epicly shite reading comprehension.

>>94724116
Pretending that robots aren't illegal when there isn't a 1000000:1 ratio of robots to humans, that medicine isn't illegal when people die of trivial diseases and suffer from old age despite about a hundred solutions being found by a random fucking crew on a vessel not even remotely looking for that, that starfleet diets aren't awful when they're in worse health than most modern atheletes is completely absurd and gay
The only thing I let them pass on is that genetic engineering is banned by a cartel involving not just the federation, but the romulans, klingons, and probably cardies as well so it's not entirely their own fault that it remains banned, but the ban on earth was for a time at least purely federation retardation.
>i envy your blissful ignorance, you get to experience the good stuff for the first time
Unlike you I've actually seen TNG/DS9, this is how it is.

>>94724063
>without need or want
>only government handouts and feudal estates exist, your only way to even get off the planet is to accept a government job, very very few of which outside of the military aren't one way trips and the ones which aren't don't leave you with your own vessel to actually make it to neutral space
>federation will extradite and imprison you for running away anyway
There are plenty of humans etc. who aren't trapped in the federation but to pretend that it's anything but a dystopian military dictatorship for the ones that are is entirely disingenuous. The most obvious difference between the federation and the cardies is that if you were a pre-warp quarry slave in cardie space, they'd have given you spaceage medicine, even if you probably would still die of overwork and/or abuse.

>>94724063
Here's your >(you)

>>94724136
There's an almost infinite amount of stories you could tell about the crazy situations the Federation diplomatic corps get sent into to smooth over.
And without ever actually leaving the borders of the Federation at that.

You can also have your cake and eat it too by having a Starfleet vessel transport the diplomats to where they're needed, who then go off an scan some nearby particles because they're all science nerds.
So that way they're nearby when needed.

>>94724518
>robots are illegal when there isn't a 1000000:1 ratio of robots to humans
>medicine is illegal when people die of trivial diseases
oh you're RETARDED retarded
what the hell told you the diseases people die of in the setting were "trivial"? nobody even dies of cancer - Earth is explicitly, repeatedly stated to be entirely free of disease within 15 years of First Contact

>they're in worse health than most modern atheletes
what the fuck are you talking about?
where is the evidence for this?
nothing besides your deep, inexplicable need for the quintessential noblebright sci-fi setting to be the dystopia you've deluded yourself into seeing?

>>94724518
>your only way to even get off the planet is to accept a government job
there is AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY of civilian ship use in Trek you brainless pube
this is like saying boats are illegal in America because a show you watched followed the crew of a US Navy destroyer

you clearly know absolutely nothing about Star Trek. why are you even here?

>>94725485
>within 15 years
whoops, it was 50.
makes no real difference, they'd effectively cured cancer by ENT era

>>94725485
Have you tried actually watching startrek?
>there is AN ENTIRE INDUSTRY of civilian ship use in Trek
Yes, that you have to be born into feudal ownership of or be allowed to leave government service with the equivalent of an honorable discharge to access. You aren't allowed to perform any kind of private work and earn a ship, you have to get out of the federation before you're able to do so.

>>94722137
I'd say that people left the Federation at the thought of helping the Romulans is pretty terrible. That and revealing they experimented on Changelings in season 3

>>94705250
>>94705343
>>94706369
You are are now recalling that time Bajor destroyed an entire habital moon i.e a second homeworld to heat a few thousand homes despite Bajor being a civilisation with anti matter and fusion capabilites.

The warp core from a single runabout would have powered half their civilisation let alone heat a few thousand homes but they wreaked an entire planetary biosphere to accomplish something FEMA could have handled in a couple of weeks.

is it true they dumped discovery/strange new worlds from canon? are they gonna do the same for all modern trek shows?

After being thoroughly humiliated previously, the headcanon tard is now moving on to injecting his baseless headcanon to claim all Trek has always been shitty, not just nuTrek. While it's not an unexpected turnaround, it is still hilarious.

>>94725965
That actually makes perfect sense. You have to recall that early season Bajor was a wreck. Anti-matter and fusion capabilities are probably quite a stretch. I mean they barely had impulse fighters after relying on sub-impulse fighters during their fight against Cardassia.

Destroying the moon was EXTREMELY short sighted, no arguments in the least from me, but again that makes perfect sense for the Provisional Government, which was inept at best, corrupt at worst. But the Federation was forced to abide by them, since they weren't members, merely a kind of protectorate. The Federation could have surely rebuilt the place a lot faster than we saw. I mean, hell, they were still making horribly inefficient use of soil reclaimators by the mid-seasons. I don't know if it was because they weren't full members or because of Bajorian pride to do it themselves. We know they gave them some industrial replicators, though not as many as they gave the Cardies.

>>94723788
>>94724152
Capitalism cares about private ownership of 'capital' assets - stuff like currency, vehicles, production equipment, buildings, real estate, labor, etc. Neither it nor communism (even in its many differing and contradictory historical definitions) really cares about personal effects (like your time) unless it's explicitly productive (i.e. labor). It's looking broader. Stalin's regime didn't actually own everybody's toothbrushes and underwear; your workplace doesn't actually own your time (they're paying you for the result of you using your time for labor).

It gets more iffy with subscriptions/rent seeking, but that's something the historical people behind the economic foundations of capitalism and communism alike would be bashing to hell and back today. As in, Adam Smith and Karl Marx would both agree it was a dangerous, rampant problem.

The way Sisko's restaurant and Picard's vineyard work in Trek is likely more akin to a list of unused spaces; if you want to make a restaurant or manage a vineyard, choose an unoccupied space (or find someone willing to share and/or relinquish the one they occupy) and set your stuff up. It becomes occupied, not owned (it's not exchangeable for other capital, unless you and someone else agree to switch places).

If, somehow, despite the Federation being able to construct ecumenopoli and still generally not needing to, nothing's available and nobody wants you to do your thing anywhere on the entire planet, one of two things happens: 1) you realize it was a terrible idea that nobody wants and try something else or 2) you find some place on another planet or off-planet to do it.

Replicators negate the use of most products as capital (you just replicate the product or replicate the tools you need to make it), and with it most of the core utility of currency from which every other use is derived. The only limiting factors are energy and space, and the Federation has enough of both to exceed any demand.

>>94725531
>that you have to be born into feudal ownership of or be allowed to leave government service with the equivalent of an honorable discharge to access
This is just completely incorrect. Did you think Mudd had to work in Starfleet to get his ship? Did you think Kassidy Yates' ship was some kind of family heirloom?

Did you think watching Benjamin Sisko literally build a spaceship in his spare time was proof it was something civilians couldn't do?

I believe it appropriate to ask:
>Have you tried actually watching startrek?

>>94726122
Important to note that the Bajoran government did not see the Federation as allies at first. The Federation stood by during the entire occupation calling it an internal Cardassian matter, then swooped in once the Cardassians left to take the place of their enemies. To the Bajorans, they only begrudgingly had to accept Federation aid to survive, and were deathly afraid that they were trading one imperial master for another. To the Federation's credit this is where Federation values came into play because they let the Bajorans do what they wanted with the Federation merely providing the aid the Bajorans wanted and defence against a Cardassian reprisal. This allowed the Bajorans to be won over in the long run, even if it resulted in a lot of short term immediate mistakes. Were the Federation to try to swoop in and play saviour, the Bajoran rebels would not have stopped fighting and would've just changed targets.

>>94726149
As an aside, it's always hilarious whenever Adam Smith gets held up as the Marx of capitalism, when free-market capitalism was Smith's Torment Nexus. A lot of his writings were about extrapolating the end result of private capital ownership and advocating in favour of government interference to prevent its excesses.
Of course the USSR, China, and other "communism by force" countries were Marx's Torment Nexus, because he advocated for a cultural revolution by the people of an already industrial modern country, instead of a military revolution by feudal peasants, because he posited that the latter would just result in tyranny under a different name.

>>94726026
People are using Lower Decks to say they dumped Discovery from canon. By definition that argument only works if Lower Decks is canon, and to extend that it means SNW is canon since Lower Decks crosses over with it.

>>94723788
I think you should all remember that whenever you get into an argument with someone in this thread it could be the "post scarcity time capitalism" guy

>capitalists would ask "what benefit will it bring?"
already incomprehensible in just the first paragraph

The only canon trek is 'Far beyond the stars'

>>94726673
"Far Beyond The Stars" is set within a framing story on DS9, which means that if DS9 isn't canon, "Far Beyond The Stars" isn't canon either

the only true canon is the reality created at the Hotel Royale, featuring an improbable paperback novel being taken on a pointless decades-long manned mission to the edge of the solar system and used bafflingly by advanced aliens to create a habitat for the sole survivor of that mission, indicating that they could read and comprehend human writing systems but for whatever reason were incapable of returning the crew home or keeping them in more appropriate settings

the Hotel Royale is then improbably visited almost three centuries later by the crew of one of the most advanced starships in the galaxy, whose command crew include a telepath, an artificial intelligence, the telepath's ex-boyfriend, the first member of a hostile alien species to serve in their starfleet, a man born blind whose eyesight could only be fixed by a bulky implant, and so on

therefore the Hotel Royale is in fact a wider simulation extending across the galaxy, it is the simulation in which the entirety of Star Trek exists, and any inconsistencies or retcons that occur within it are simply the result of the alien mind that created the simulator that runs the simulation of bad human writing of the 20th century deciding to allow bad writing

it's a LLM

>>94723847
A dystopia compared to what? Even at its worse, the Federation is a freer place than anywhere today. It's not literal perfection and makes a lot of mistakes due to incompetence, but that beats being actively malicious and corrupt.

>>94726417
>>94726026
Maybe SNW is broad-strokes: all the events depicted happened across Pike's career in some fashion, but possibly not the way we see it on TV.

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>>94723847
>It presents itself as a dystopia

>dys·to·pi·a
>/disˈtōpēə/
>noun
>noun: dystopia; plural noun: dystopias
> an imagined state or society in which there is great suffering or injustice, typically one that is totalitarian or post-apocalyptic.

...explain harder.

>>94706110
>>94706369
Don't forget the fact that lithium-based antimatter reactors exist and are capable of powering up engines to Warp 7. It would had been interesting seeing a bunch of ships going back to less-efficient engines while being higher tech in different ways.
But the writers going that route was as likely as CBS allowing Starfleet Museum ENT to be canon.

>>94726026
>>94726417
Trekkies have historically had a more mature relationship with 'canon' than most other fandoms.

If something is too broken to fit together, they just disregard whichever thing they like least or rationalize it as a difference in depiction (see: >>94727417). Other fandoms (*cough* Star Wars *cough*) have a severe recency bias when deciding which of a contradicting set of information is true or not.

What does that look like in practice? Trekkies caring about LD and to a decent extent SNW, and not generally giving a shit about DIS and PIC except where the latter two are actively insulting to the rest of Trek, which is less an "I think this is canon now" thing and more a "stop being so nakedly hostile towards something I love" thing. I see DIS and PIC eventually ending up in a similar place to TAS canon - a few of the good ideas kept, but much of it largely ignored. With longer, serialized stories (rather than bespoke episode stories), this means the overarching plot is much more likely to be jettisoned altogether. When that plot is as incoherent as the ones in those series, that's much, much easier to do.

As an example, I'd expect Trekkies going forward to consider the Kelpians to exist, likely the Ba'ul, too, but probably think of Michael Burnham as a character in some in-universe slop fiction, if she exists at all. There's really no other way to get around her being inexplicably shoved into Spock and Sarek's family (or her culpability in starting a war because klingon bat'leth design was apparently so retarded pre-first contact it was primarily a hazard to the wielder) except to completely disregard it.

>>94727712
The next time they cast a new guy as Spock they'll probably also reinvent Burnham. I mean you're basically right about trek canon, I just don't think anyone is going to let go of Burnham, I think there will be people who like STD as it is plus people who like the idea and want to fix it.

>>94726211
It's funny when you think about it, but Bajorans and Cardassians both love to argue at about the same level. The primary difference, insofar as I can tell, is that Cardassians get horny when you sass at them. Bajorans just like to shout.

One of the funniest things, I suppose, is that if it weren't for Sisko being the Emissary it probably would have never worked out. It at lest forced them to be slightly more accepting of outsiders, though even he had to work to get acceptance, even from his first officer.

>>94727712
>Trekkies have historically had a more mature relationship with 'canon' than most other fandoms.
>If something is too broken to fit together, they just disregard whichever thing they like least or rationalize it as a difference in depiction

Historically, I've not seen that as true, at least before the Discovery era. I've been online a long time and Trek fandom is absolutely autistic about welding together a bunch of inconsistencies that really should have been chalked up as "yeah sometimes writers don't put a ton of thought into stuff" and left alone. People sitting around measuring warp velocities for inconsistencies (not the big TOS v TNG scale, but like small throwaway lines within shows about how long at warp whatever it would take to get to system whatever and doing 50 paragraphs of detective work on it).

>What does that look like in practice? Trekkies caring about LD and to a decent extent SNW, and not generally giving a shit about DIS and PIC except where the latter two are actively insulting to the rest of Trek, which is less an "I think this is canon now" thing and more a "stop being so nakedly hostile towards something I love" thing.
I do agree this attitude exists now and has existed since Discovery, but it is relatively new and a result of, as you identified, the insurmountable hostility that it has for previous Trek and it's fandom. This is also why SNW and LD have won back at least some old fans, they are less abrasive. Some people still hate them but a decent amount of old fans enjoy them, which I can't believe about Discovery or Picard, which seem tailor made for the "I licked your franchise, its mine now" twitter weirdos.

>>94727941

>Other fandoms (*cough* Star Wars *cough*) have a severe recency bias when deciding which of a contradicting set of information is true or not.
Well, it doesn't help that Star Wars official canon was erased in 2014 and started again. At the same time it was somehow turned into a culture wars battlefield and totally contaminated the property with a bunch of people shoving their pet politics into places they didn't fit. Sadly, this seems to have been happening across the board in the later half of the 2010s when basement dwelling nerd culture somehow became the cool mainstream thing. We can only hope that "wider audiences" and twitterweirdos go away from it all (along with the le counter culture /pol/ type vultures who build youtube careers screaming about those people)

>>94727954
>Star Wars official canon was erased in 2014 and started again.

this isn't true

SW had multiple levels of canon in the EU, and all but the highest level of those were made non-canon in 2014

a lot of what was there was bad melodrama intended to sell novellas at a time when the toys weren't selling and there were no movies coming out (the late 80s-mid-90s) and most of what was lost post-2008 related to the Clone Wars series because that was what was the predominant driver of sales on toys and merch during that period

but even prior to 2014 the idea that SW had a defined canon was only ever aspirational; like ST it had works that contradicted one another and this often determined which level of canon they entered into

in the 1990s the NJO/Wedge books, along with works like Dark Empire, determined what had happened post-ROTJ; but they also introduced concepts that were incompatible with the Prequels in some cases and so were relegated to a lower tier of canon; there wasn't even a defined canon until 1994, and what that meant was redefined multiple times before the end of the decade before it was decided that only the films were "true canon"; Lucas would later specify (during the release of ROTS) that he didn't "read any of that stuff" (the books etc) as it was simply additional material produced on behalf of LucasFilm by contractors; he would occasionally take characters from the EU canon into "true canon" (such as Aayla Secura for example) but was happy to have the EU have its own, separate and lower-tier, canon, which Leland Chee became manager of; Lucas had by this time disowned all post-ROTJ "canon" entirely as not part of his "Star Wars" (he changed his mind about that after being paid 4 billion dollars for LucasFilm)

Lucas also clarified that the TCW series was part of the movie canon (from 2008 onwards) and so to him, the only canon that ever mattered was that show, its movie and the six movies that preceded it

>>94727941
>Trek fandom is absolutely autistic about welding together a bunch of inconsistencies
That is actually part of what I was trying to get at - not treating any one series as Word of God.

>like small throwaway lines within shows about how long at warp whatever it would take to get to system whatever and doing 50 paragraphs of detective work on it
And I love them for it.

>before the Discovery era
I could be wrong of course, but I think what you may be seeing here as a shift in the fandom is actually a shift in the scale of the same idea that leads to people largely ignoring Threshold - the VOY episode with the warp 10 lizard babies - as in, not even really trying to weld it to the canon, just largely ignoring it. In large databases like memoryalpha where it has to be there, the solution is to beat that episode into shape to make it fit, rather than a 'welding' where contradicting sources are given even weight. It's one of the few things where one canon statement is highly preferred over another... before the Discovery era.

Before DIS, the fandom at large never seemed to feel the need to jettison nearly an entire series. ENT was as close as it got, but it was always more a stylistic thing - the actual story fits pretty well with everything else. Trekkies largely WANTED that fifth season by the time ENT S4 ended.

The worst the contradictions (like rescaling ESD so they could fit the Galaxy for that one shot) and impossible nonsense (like the Okampa population halving every generation because they didn't think "one child per mother" through) got were small arcs, throwaway lines, or bad episodes... until the Discovery era.

>>94727774
The next time they cast spock they won't even remember burnham. Literal forgettable trash.

>no one is going to let go of burnham
No we're literally plotting how to stuff her corpse in an alt-universe dumpster. We're far past 'letting go'.

>>94727217
I hate that this is better written and sounder then almost anything else in New Trek.

>>94699258
Isn't time travel a common occurrence in the Federation since "city on the edge of forever"? What with TAS being canon now?

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>>94721648
>>94718973
The thing about DS9 is that the Ferengi are pretty clearly on the cusp of a major social upheaval, caused by alien contact "corrupting" them, and >every< one of them who's offworld is in denial about it. Every character thinks he's the one exception, and successfully hiding it from the rest. Or just gave up completely like Nog. It's a race-wide Abelline Complex and it's kind of hilarious.

>>94723302
>>94723645
Berman never had to be kicked out of a script meeting because he'd derailed it for over an hour talking about the shape of alien cocks.

>>94726210
>Did you think Kassidy Yates' ship was some kind of family heirloom?
Kasidy Yates wasn't born into serfdom, correct. She's explicitly already free of the federation.
>Did you think watching Benjamin Sisko literally build a spaceship in his spare time was proof it was something civilians couldn't do?
You mean the fucking starfleet captain, war hero, and theocratic dictator of an entire planet? That "civilian"?

>Have you tried actually watching startrek?
Yes. You have not.

>>94726149
>if you want to make a restaurant or manage a vineyard, choose an unoccupied space (or find someone willing to share and/or relinquish the one they occupy) and set your stuff up
Except it's pretty clear that the only way to ever actually get one of these spaces is to be born into ownership.
>It becomes occupied, not owned (it's not exchangeable for other capital, unless you and someone else agree to switch places).
That would imply that it is exchangeable for other capital. You're right that it wouldn't be surprising if the federation murdered you for actually trying to engage in economic activity with it, though.
>If, somehow, despite the Federation being able to construct ecumenopoli and still generally not needing to
lmao
You mean they refuse to construct ecumenopoli and if you aren't born into ownership you're stuck a serf forever with little to no recourse (outside of a government position)?
>Replicators negate the use of most products as capital
lol
>The only limiting factors are energy and space, and the Federation has enough of both to exceed any demand.
lol

>>94727241
The federation is at least as actively malicious and corrupt as e.g. the United States or Germany.

>>94727465
>an imagined state or society in which there is great suffering or injustice
>one that is totalitarian
2 for 2

>>94728877
Weird headcanon bro.

I really like old ferangi. Their first appearance in particular sells the idea that they're nasty horrid badguys who are still people and who still have their own moral and social reality. And the second appearance IIRC is the one where a ferangi captain gets relieved of duty because he tried to avenge his son and avenging your son isn't profitable. That was totally awesome. The fact that they come off as overtly wicked and troll-like just makes it better.

>>94728349
no, you hate that it's been true since 1987

>>94728913
Are you self identifying?

>>94728877
faggot.

>>94728182
I simplified, but yes the movies remained along with TCW and Rebels, but the long running EU was erased. Therefore the "recency bias" regarding Star Wars canon at least in the modern era is not helped by the fact that 90% has been nuked.

>>94729561
Jedi Prince, Waru and the Christmas Special will always be canon to me.

>>94728252
I can see in around 2 years if Kurtzman gets canned LD and SNW get a similar 'semi-canon' status that TAS series had (LD I feel will get that first, with the explanation being the series events happened but as a regular Star Trek show instead of a comedy) while STD and PIC are stipped of what little 'good ideas' they had and are at best treated like the Kelvin Timeline or declared completely non-canon.

>>94729561
but the point is that the EU itself is a fiction of recency bias; there was no EU until the mid 90s and the idea that it all fits together before that is nonsensical (particularly talking about the Marvel comics, which just made stuff up every issue because they had the fastest turnover and shortest deadlines and next to no contact from LucasFilm, and were frequently completely at odds with the later movies even when they released the same year)

the whole question of canon only came about because militant fans in the late 90s - the same ones who a few years later simply could not accept that the prequels wouldn't retreat EU works but did their own thing, which was initially one of the major complaints about TPM even before it released - dedicated themselves to insisting that there should be a canon, again, largely because the older EU materials were long out of print and hard to find

the equivalent would be if sometime around the same time ST nerds had decided to try and reconcile the entirety of ST EU materials - all those outright contradictory novel series for example - and somehow got Paramount to agree to it for the sake of the mailman's spine

there never really was a SW canon outside of the movies and TCW as far as George Lucas and LucasFilm were concerned, and the layers of canonicity below G-canon simply affirm that truth; they were always saying "these other things, the video games, the novels, they're not really things that happened", but they were saying it in a way that allowed fans of those things to simply ignore the truth

>>94728877
>She's explicitly already free of the federation.
What? No she isn't. She's a citizen of the Federation. The fact that she plies the space lanes doesn't change that she's a citizen any more than an American airline pilot is "free of the Union" when he takes off.

>Except it's pretty clear that the only way to ever actually get one of these spaces is to be born into ownership.
It's not clear at all. We never see anyone try and set one up for themselves, so we don't have the slightest idea how easy or hard it is.

>You mean they refuse to construct ecumenopoli
They don't need to. There's no need to. Star Trek *does* very clearly have habitable planets being cosmically abundant, given the sheer number of them we see across the various series (Hell, the simple fact that Earth, Alpha Centauri, Andor, Tellar, and Vulcan are all wtihin about 25 ly of each other according to official star charts would suggest that habitable worlds are *ludicrously* abundant; heck, we have multiple instances of multiple habitable worlds existing in the same star system). There's no need to turn a planet into a city when you can instead just settle a nearby habitable-but-lacking-a-native-sapient-species world.

>laughing at the Federation's size
Oh hey I can pull out some back-of-the-envelope math I did a few years back. Hang on, this'll require a separate post.

>>94729842
The math I threatened y'all with.

Okay, so the movie First Contact establishes that the Federation is 8,000 ly across. The average thickness of the Milky Way galaxy is 1,000 ly. So this means that the Federation, assuming it is roughly cylindrical in shape, comprises an area of about 50.3 billion cubic light years. Assuming that the stellar density throughout is about the same as in Sol's local neighborhood (.004 stars per cubic light year), this would mean that the Federation contains some 201.2 million star systems. We know today that star systems with planets are the rule rather than the exception; every time we turn our telescopes to a star system, we find it has planets. Thus we can safely assume that every single star system in the Federation contains at least one planet.

Now, in ENT "Fight or Flight", it is stated that 1 in 43,000 planets supports intelligent life. So of the 201.2 million star systems in the Federation, some 4,679 contain civilizations or cultures of some description, ranging from primitive stone-age tech species all the way up to warp-capable civilizations. HOWEVER, it needs must be remembered that we encounter many planets that do not have sapient life, and it is reasonable to assume that for every habitable planet with sapient life, there are many more that lack them. Even if this ratio was as small as 3:1 (and it's likely to be much, much larger), this would mean that the Federation contains at minimum some 14,037 planets that support life but do not have a native sapient population.

Please note that we have not even begun to consider such things as terraforming or domed colonies.

TL:DR - The least valuable resource in the Federation is livable land.

>>94727712
>If something is too broken to fit together, they just disregard whichever thing they like least or rationalize it as a difference in depiction (see: >>94727417).
>I see DIS and PIC eventually ending up in a similar place to TAS canon - a few of the good ideas kept, but much of it largely ignored.
I fully agree with this. I dont think the fanbase can collectively make these non canon, and I dont think the shows can either, but people have the power to ignore things and I believe that after Starfleet Academy, we arent getting any 32nd century Trek again. Discovery has set itself up to be ignored by making the early stuff classified and the later stuff after everything else, so people who like the show can be happy while giving everyone else little reason to reference it again. The canon seems to have embraced the ships though, which is fair enough.

PIC is harder to ignore though, the Mars attacks and subsequent straining of the Federation sounds like it would impact most stories set in that time. Plus fans glaze S3 so much that I doubt much of that would get thrown away even if the finale was mega shit

>As an example, I'd expect Trekkies going forward to consider the Kelpians to exist, likely the Ba'ul, too, but probably think of Michael Burnham as a character in some in-universe slop fiction, if she exists at all.
this wont happen though. Like you said, things will just be acknowledged as a thing that happened and then ignored, like warp tearing apart space, or holodecks on the TAS Enterprise.

>>94730644
>I dont think the fanbase can collectively make these non canon,
I can only presume this is a failure of imagination on your part, especially in the current day.

>pic is harder to ignore
Not really.
>Hey is there a secrete universe full of Robo-Cthulhu's? And the Federation recognized Data's Personhood to make a bunch of datacopies that they kept as slaves (and didn't have the stupid twin requirement that one island of retards claimed).
How about Nooooooooooooooooooo.

>>94729731
>I can see in around 2 years if Kurtzman gets canned LD and SNW get a similar 'semi-canon' status that TAS series had
This is never going to happen. LD is the fandom baby right now and largely considered the best show of nutrek, making it semi canon will just piss off people with no real benefit

>the explanation being the series events happened but as a regular Star Trek show instead of a comedy
people already think this, though I think the references of the show in other Trek shows means it's less exaggerated than we think and the Cerritos is just a weird ship. The Doctor does straight up say the Cerritos is the most chaotic ship he's been on.

>>94730711
I dont think the fanbase consensus will be able to change much, and I dont think there will be enough fanbase consensus for it either. But it doesnt matter because we have the power to choose what we discuss and how, and what we focus on can affect what showrunners feel inspired to create.

>>Hey is there a secrete universe full of Robo-Cthulhu's
Yes that will be ignored. I dont think the synth ban will be ignored, even if it was undone. That sounds like something that will get referenced back to, because it's tied to the Mars attacks, which I predict is 100% here to stay.

On that note, nobody's gonna give a shit about the Picard S2 portal because Lower Decks made the portal people care about now

>>94729904
Except nobody ever said anything about livable land. We're talking about land on Earth.

>>94729842
>What? No she isn't. She's a citizen of the Federation.
No she wasn't. She's only a citzien now that she's married to sisko.
The shipping company was independant and took contracts from the bajorans, who weren't anti-currency at the time.

>>94729904
>assuming it is roughly cylindrical in shape
Big assumptions not supported by anything

>>94730889
A cylindrical shape simply gives us its is maximum possible extent. Even if its internal volume is only half as large, that's still 25.15 billion cubic light years containing 100.6 million stars, of which 2,339 have existing civilizations on them and many, many, many more are habitable but lack a sapient species and thus are ripe for colonization.

>We're talking about land on Earth.
Nothing we've ever seen in Star Trek suggests that overcrowding (and thus available land) is an issue on Earth.

>No she wasn't. She's only a citzien now that she's married to sisko.
Prove it.

>The shipping company was independant
That's not proof. An American citizen can work for a British company or vice-versa, so employment is not automatically indicative of citizenship status.

>and took contracts from the bajorans, who weren't anti-currency at the time.
So?

>>94731191
>Nothing we've ever seen in Star Trek suggests that overcrowding (and thus available land) is an issue on Earth.
Yes, because they have strict feudalism and ship people into space without any recourse.
>Prove it.
Watch DS9.
>That's not proof. An American citizen can work for a British company or vice-versa, so employment is not automatically indicative of citizenship status.
>So?
Federation citizens don't have currency and don't (legally) get paid.

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Why are you morons trying to argue with this tard, you're not arguing about the actual franchise, you're arguing about his headcanon which he can alter whenever he wants to "win." You're playing kaltoh with a pigeon.

>>94731214
>because they have strict feudalism
Prove it.
>and ship people into space without any recourse
Demonstrate a single unwilling colonist in all of Star Trek.
>Watch DS9.
I don't recall Yates' citizenship ever coming up once.
>Federation citizens don't have currency and don't (legally) get paid.
Does Yates actually get paid, or does she just handle currency as necessary to do her job?

>>94731235
I like watching them squirm.

>>94731235
yeah this is the kind of discussion you have when we're 250 replies in and the thread is about to end anyways. We should be arguing over ship sizes right now

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>>94731571
Why was the Vengeance so huge when it was designed to be capable of being run by just one guy?

Aside from the fact that it's just not a very good movie, that is.

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>>94731745
Because bigger equals badder and therefore cooler. You have to consider JJ logic. Death Star? No, PLANET Death Star. Star Destroyer? No, BIGGER Star Destroyer that is ALSO a Death Star. Luke? BIGGER LUKE! (ask /swg/ about that last one)

To his view pic related is awesome and not an ungodly confusing mess.

>>94731745
square cube law, smaller ships bleed energy faster

plus it's missing huge chunks of the saucer section, and the Enterprise in those movies is, despite what people like to claim, no bigger than the TMP Enterprise as demonstrated by multiple interior/exterior shots as it gets torn apart

which means the Vengeance is probably no larger than the Galaxy-class Enterprise, possibly with lower mass because of the big saucer hole

>>94731745
It's the exact size to open giant klingon space bottles.

>>94731318
>Prove it.
Watch TNG or DS9
>Demonstrate a single unwilling colonist in all of Star Trek.
Like half of the colonists in DS9 and almost the entire marquis?
>Does Yates actually get paid
Yes
>or does she just handle currency as necessary to do her job?
No, she literally complains about not being able to make money because she's grounded at one point.

You unironically need to watch some startrek before you reply again without knowing what you're talking about at all.

>>94731952
>Watch TNG or DS9
I have. I see no evidence of feudalism.
>Like half of the colonists in DS9
Which ones?
>and almost the entire marquis?
I wasn't aware of any of the maquis being forced to colonize the planets they live on.
>No, she literally complains about not being able to make money because she's grounded at one point.
It's her job to make money for her company. That's not the same thing as her actually collecting a paycheck.

>>94732008
>I have.
You demonstrably have not seen DS9. This is your last >(you)
>>>No, she literally complains about not being able to make money because she's grounded at one point.
>It's her job to make money for her company. That's not the same thing as her actually collecting a paycheck.

>>94731952
>almost the entire marquis?
That's moving the goal post.
The Marquis isn't pissed that they had to colonize.
They are pissed they were forcibly removed from their colonies because of a treaty.
Which you should know after watching TNG and DS9

>>94728549
I don't know if I agree with you about the Ferengi. The offworlders seem the most "tainted" due to contact, but homeworld (which is all we ever see) seems the most untouched. At least at first.

Of course Rom and Nog changed the most, and honestly as sudden as it was, especially Nog, I love what they did. Nog's was brilliant for such a quick change in his character. I mean that if you absolutely want to do a single episode character change, that's how you do it. Every other character doubted him, as the audience no doubt was, but then that scene where he breaks down and says he doesn't want to end up like his father. Goddamn. I felt like Sisko looked hearing that. And, honestly, it did work well enough. You can track it with some of Nog's earlier moments, such as Jake teaching him to read, and afterward he also still had plenty of Ferengi moments so he didn't just flip a switch and start acting all hyoo-mon. He still had plenty of wheeling and dealing in him. I loved the bit where they do a play on the MASH style quartermaster stuff. Rom DEFINITELY was better for interacting with Starfleet. The best way to describe his early portrayals is he's just trying so damn hard to be a "good" Ferengi, mocking women, being greedy, but that it was never really him. It definitely worked out for the better. Him going from an absolute idiot to a genius savant engineer was odd but you can see the early signs, like his ability to open the old chemist shop.

>>94732148
>Him going from an absolute idiot to a genius savant engineer
I mean... his characterization as an idiot was almost always "doesn't realize he's being exploited" + "incredibly clumsy" from what I remember.

I think a lot of people put too much weight on the "couldn't fix a straw if it was bent" line, when I don't actually recall us ever being shown Rom struggling with some engineering task.

>>94732148
As for Ferenginar. I think a lot of that was accidentally importing egalitarianism and similar ideals. But clearly part of their society was just unhappy. To me this oddly links all the way back to early season 1 when Keiko is setting up the school. Rom describes Ferengi education as kids being chucked into the deep end and you either swim towards the profit or sink into debt. Not quite the way he put it, I added my own spin, but close enough. Basically the Rules of Acquisition are all you get as your foundational upbringing.

Seems like a lot of this was just Moogie. Or, hell, all of it, really, playing with Zek's oldtimers (but they do love each other, it's just a tad transactional, which is so very Ferengi). I can understand her discontent. Her husband was a good person, but a bad Ferengi by the standards of their people. She, meanwhile, is a financial genius but also a bad (female) Ferengi by their standards. Of course she's pissed.

And clearly she wasn't alone. We do get a sense of this from the Bar Association episode. A lot of Ferengi dream of profit but do the sinking bit instead. Offer them a pension, time off for illness and holidays, healthcare, of course they'll grab for it. I mean if you're just going to OFFER it for free, what good Ferengi wouldn't? At that point the reforms would be so popular (except for the bosses) it would be hard to undo.

I do like that Rom, even as Nagus, still has to play by certain Ferengi rules. If he does things too easily they won't accept it.

>>94732187
The line in question was made by Odo, though, so I accept that people weight it accordingly. Odo prides himself on watching, studying, and being able to see through people. Of course he's not perfect. Eddington got by him. It fits, though, because EVERYONE underestimates Rom. In the episode Little Green Men when Odo is dragging Quark off for smuggling Rom offers to call cousin Gaila for help. Quark naturally calls him an idiot, but then you just see that smile on Rom's face. He knows exactly what he was doing.

I also like that Rom is an idiot savant of engineering due to necessity. He's self-taught, learning how to jury rig systems, because it turns out Quark is too damn cheap to hire a repairman or replace equipment, so Rom is left doing everything himself, even using cutlery if it has the right metallic composition. He doesn't Frankenstein the systems because he wants to, he has to.

>>94732187
>>94732269
I know early DS9 didn't have the characterizations nailed down, but lest we forget Rom successfully embezzled the Grand Nagus and was on the verge of murdering Quark scot free until Zek stepped in at the nick of time.

>>94732027
>You demonstrably have not seen DS9.
Tu quoque.

>>94731952
this level of stupid is actually impressive

every post you've made in this thread reeks of "Trek is too lefty so the Federation must be a dystopia" and a STAGGERING amount of delusional cope about it that contradicts what's actually there

news flash, bucko - you can still be a staunch libertarian anarcho-capitalist in Trek, and the Federation won't kill you for it. hell, you'd probably be able to found a colony on some world with other likeminded individuals and be completely unbothered by the Federation unless you start enslaving people or some shit. they won't even fucking tax you, they have no need for your colony's resources, and if stuff gets dire... ask them for aid, you'll probably get it unless something like the Dominion war is going on

we've had Mudd since TOS - the Federation doesn't even have a death penalty

>>94730644
>>94730758
>the Mars attacks, which I predict is 100% here to stay
i'm not sure it's actually even workable. it's too much of a violation of the precedents set by TNG episodes like "Measure of a Man," "The Quality of Life," "Data's Day," etc., and the entire theme of both Data and The Doctor's characters.

the prerequisite premise - synths building starships - is untenable because the Federation doesn't need them. what ship components can't be replicated can be manufactured and assembled by a small teams because of how easily Federation tech can automate construction

it is unironically almost impossible to justify a Federation ship requiring more humanoid laborers to construct than a tiny fraction of the eventual crew compliment. and you know what they would use if they somehow didn't have enough people for people-sized work?

FUCKING HOLOGRAMS

the constraint for Federation ship production was ALWAYS material, never labor - tractor beams and anti-grav tech make using humanoid robots for assembly retarded

i swear to god none of the people writing PIC understood that a replicator is ALREADY A UNIVERSAL FACTORY ROBOT

>>94732371
>the constraint for Federation ship production was ALWAYS material, never labor
I swear the opposite was stated in DS9 at some point, something about the Federation easily being able to build ships faster than the Dominion could destroy them, but the problem was in then crewing those ships.

>>94732412
Crewing ships is a different kind of labour compared to building ships.
Like, it's different people that do those things.
Might not be obvious though...

>>94732371
>we've had Mudd since TOS - the Federation doesn't even have a death penalty
visiting Talos IV

>>94732514
>In the 23rd century, General Order 7 was issued subsequent to the USS Enterprise's visit to Talos IV in 2254. By 2267, the penalty for Starfleet officers violating General Order 7 was death. However, in the only known instance of the order's violation, Starfleet declined to prosecute the officers involved. (TOS: "The Menagerie, Part I", "The Menagerie, Part II")

>>94732412
>>94732463
It's like saying the US today is lacking for ship crews. It's not actually a matter of shortages in population, it's a matter of training personnel and then being willing to do it. And given ship crews had to be up to star fleet standards, there simply isn't a quick turn around on them. Not like the federation vat clones and conditions the people in starfleet

>>94732412
>>94732463
>>94732880
What was the context of the "plenty of starships, limited crew" quote again? I feel like some of it is probably the bias that life long Starfleet members would have towards those who were rushed through with minimal training.

Also, Starfleet has a lot of ships in storage, but they probably aren't suited for front lines without refits.

I am guessing if it had no other choice, Starfleet could have fought the war by trying to swarm Dominion with armed civilian vessels and old ships with new crews, but they would have taken very heavy losses for each Dominion warship they managed to take down, which would have been very demoralizing.

Trying to automate ships could have also been an option, but it seems in the Star Trek universe, automated vessels have a tendency to get hacked or go rogue.

>>94725965
>The warp core from a single runabout would have powered half their civilisation let alone heat a few thousand homes but they wreaked an entire planetary biosphere to accomplish something FEMA could have handled in a couple of weeks.
That runabout runs on antimatter, which is a method to store energy. Would have been better that the Federation build for the Bajorans whatever energy generation system it uses to power the particle accelerators that make antimatter in the first place (massive solar arrays? fusion reactors? what actually powers the Federation in the first place? I remember that massive telescope array that ran on fusion reactors so massive and powerful they could chain reaction and obliterate everything nearby but is that it?)

Also, while we're at it. The easy answer is to replicate a fusion reactor but can fusion reactors be replicated? One of the things that mess up teleporters/replicators is magnets. Actually there's hundreds of things listed that teleporters can't teleport, why does the Federation build their ship superstructures out of victurium which apparently blocks teleporters if someone is standing too close to one of the bulkheads -
a situation that rarely happens but it did once in TNG:Hero Worship, what possible engineering reason is to use that alloy in ships that rely heavily on teleporters?

>>94732571
weren't we just over the whole "a Federation citizen isn't a Starfleet officer" thing?
was general order 7 a Starfleet thing or a Federation thing?

>>94732571
that doesn't mean there is no death penalty.

>>94733384
>there being effectively no death penalty does not mean there is no death penalty
OK, sure

>>94733380
Pretty sure General Orders are just a Starfleet thing.
If you think about it. technically, federation citizens aren't even bound by the prime directive.

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>>94733044
>what actually powers the Federation in the first place?
Most of the Federation's antimatter production comes from gas giants like Jupiter, which has enormous antimatter plants in orbit.
Hydrogen gas gets skimmed off the surface to provide the massive amounts of energy required to create antimatter.
Not sure, but they might also be collecting the small amounts of natural antimatter that gets caught in Jupiter's magnetosphere.
There's also solar collectors around the Sun who are less effective, but cheaper.

It is more accurate to say however that Starfleet is fueled by antimatter, not the Federation. Because antimatter is only used in situations where you need a lot of energy, stored in a compact and lightweight form. That is, as starship fuel. And also other things like photon torpedoes.

Where size and weight are not an issue, such as on planets or large enough space stations, fusion generators provide much cheaper, safer and more efficient power generation.
Generating antimatter actually nets you negative energy, as it costs you more energy to create a gram of it than you can get energy out of it.
It's only because it's so useful for things like long term long distance independent starship operation, or for increasing a weapon's destructive yield, that it gets made at all.

Fun fact, in the Enterprise-D, antimatter was stored in actual barrels on the underside of the engineering section, near where the bottom half of the warp core tube was.
These barrels had a self-containing magnetic field in them (think railguns) which caused the antimatter inside to never actually touch anything.

>>94733044
>can fusion reactors be replicated
I figure that most of it can, with the possible exception of the post-transuranic containment shell.
It's the artificial almost-neutronium that makes a fusion reactor safe and small and durable enough for everyday use.
While technically not needed, regular materials would degrade way too fast.
Replicating it is also technically possible but it would be so slow and energy intensive that it makes more sense to produce it in bulk in specialized facilities and then importing it.

>>94733010
>I am guessing if it had no other choice, Starfleet could have fought the war by trying to swarm Dominion with armed civilian vessels and old ships with new crews, but they would have taken very heavy losses for each Dominion warship they managed to take down, which would have been very demoralizing.

It's also very unsound, mathematically.

Any given Starfleet member, whether they're an academy graduate or whatever program O'Brien went through, represents an investment in time and resources that is probably orders of magnitude greater on the part of Starfleet and the Federation than the Vorta or Jem'Hadar. Jem'Hadar require no training and are ready to fight in days. They require only White. We don't know if the same's true of Vorta, but one might easily grant that Weyoun X comes out of the cloning pod much more ready to Weyoun than any Federation species comes out of the womb (or equivalent) ready to enter Starfleet Academy.

If that was the only choice left to Starfleet to continue the war, I genuinely feel that they would have surrendered to the Dominion and waited until they could engage in a guerrilla uprising like Dominion predicted in case of their victory.

The Federation is lucky the Dominion didn't decide to zerg rush them - that one bug ship kamikaze'ing !Enterprise shows they were both willing to do it and it's super effective. Even with the civilian complement off-loaded, taking out a !Enterprise and its Starfleet crew is a bargain for one bug ship and however many Jem'Hadar and Vorta were aboard. And we know the Dominion's willing to throw Jem'Hadar and Vorta into the meat grinder.

>>94733010
Certain individuals in the Trek fandom seethe about its existence, but the minimum-crew, nearly autonomous (and then proving itself literally autonomous by accident - the ship effectively saved itself from Romulan capture at some prodding by another ship's autonomous system) Prometheus actually makes a hell of a lot of sense as a response to the issues the Federation had during the Dominion War.

It is literally to the Dominion War as the Defiant was to Wolf 359.

>it seems in the Star Trek universe, automated vessels have a tendency to get hacked or go rogue
Giving the ship an actual personality via an AI - no doubt able to physically manifest an avatar via shipwide holoemitters - is a natural place to take that.

DIS trying it makes sense. It is even, and I mean this - a GOOD idea in DIS. They even take the route that avoids really stepping on the traditional naval beliefs and superstitions that Star Trek loves (and I love about Star Trek) by having the character be the ship's computer instead of the ship itself. They do it in a terrible "an alien probe did it" way, but whatever - a good idea is a good idea.

But, of course, DIS is DIS. What DIS writers did with the idea drives me nuts, because as usual they found every way they possibly could to take a reasonable idea for Trek and do it in the absolute worst way possible - since it's really hard to go wrong with, they instead have the idea halfway through the series, promptly forget about it except for a couple of mentions for the rest of the run, and then when they remember it finally for their finale... they abandon the character and our noble saint Burnham gives her an irrevocable order to sit on her ass in deep space for the rest of time.

Then we find out in a Short Trek it was so she could give some dude the last shuttle on the Discovery after 1000 years and then continue to sit in deep space alone and rotting.

It is so awful, for no reason. What the hell is wrong with these people?

>>94733789
>like Dominion predicted in case of their victory.
That was the autistic think tank.
Dominion didn't really care, they just have
>cauterize homeworld
in their standard post-war process to avoid this shit

>>94733902
Thank you for correcting me, anon. I misremembered, I believe, Weyoun stating to the Female Changeling he was promised Earth with that scene.

>>94733702
>Generating antimatter actually nets you negative energy
IRL, sure, but not with Trek tech. The Bussard collectors collect neutral hydrogen/deuterium/whatever the plot requires from interstellar space and the antimatter generator (which you can see labeled in your diagram) converts some of it to antihydrogen (antiprotons, specifically) to annihilate it with unconverted hydrogen.

Federation ships refuel themselves by moving. It's part of the "age of sail" explorer theming of the setting (sails don't require fuel). The closest thing to refueling they needed was replacing cracked dilithium crystals, which was made unnecessary by Montgomery Scott's invention of a way to regenerate the fractured crystals. Dilithium supply has more to do with replacing losses and building more ships than it does refueling by TNG era, despite what certain people say about it to make it more "grounded" by making it fuel (or just not realizing it was never fuel).

The only thing VOY needed fuel for was the replicator system. That fueling the warp core was never an issue for a ship that was planning to cross half a galaxy for over 70 years is a rather important detail.

Also, I believe the impulse engines are something like directed, open-ended fusion reactors, so it's likely the ships have fusion power as an emergency backup if the warp core fails, but they won't last very long because they can no longer use whatever antimatter they've generated/stored and fusion is much less efficient, so unless they're in a super dense nebula the ship is no longer self-sustaining.

>>94733853
>But, of course, DIS is DIS. What DIS writers did with the idea drives me nuts, because as usual they found every way they possibly could to take a reasonable idea for Trek and do it in the absolute worst way possible - since it's really hard to go wrong with, they instead have the idea halfway through the series, promptly forget about it except for a couple of mentions for the rest of the run, and then when they remember it finally for their finale... they abandon the character and our noble saint Burnham gives her an irrevocable order to sit on her ass in deep space for the rest of time.

Imagine getting mogged by one of Gene's ideas that wasn't good enough to get greenlit during his lifetime and got made into a b series starring Kevin Sorbo, a dude known for being in a cheesy action-adventure show.

>>94733789
>whatever program O'Brien went through
Probably the same way Simon Tarses was trained:
>"Yes, sir. All my life I wanted to be in Starfleet. I went to the Academy's training program for enlisted personnel. I took training as a medical technician and I served at several outposts. The day that I was posted to the Enterprise was the happiest day of my life."
I'm curious if it's got the same psychological tests done to Academy students.

>We don't know if the same's true of Vorta
Although they're clones we know they aren't a designer being like the Jem'Hadar (assuming they don't go the STO route of having a baseline species). Vorta are an elevated race of relative primitives, not addicted to the White, just loyal to the Founders for everything they were given. Assuming the story Weyoun told Odo is true. I'm sure it was, from his perspective, because that specific Weyoun would NOT have lied to Odo, but maybe the story they were told isn't the truth. That they sheltered a Changeling from hostiles and were elevated because of it. At the very least the only thing they can really taste is the kava nuts and rippleberries their species used to eat. Or maybe they were sold a lie of their generosity and the Founder's promise to one day make them powerful and put them at the head of an unstoppable empire. It'd keep them loyal.

Other than that, not sure. They're genetically engineered, but it's true we don't know if they're all clones. At the very least they have females, unlike the Jem'Hadar, but they have never shown any interest in sex that I'm aware of.

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>>94733998
>Federation ships refuel themselves by moving
This is correct, but the amount of antimatter generated this way is not enough for sustained operations.
The antimatter generator is there because if you're going to be flying a ship for 5-ish years the antimatter collected during that time can shave a few percent off your total fuel consumption. Think of it like regenerative breaking.

>The only thing VOY needed fuel for
I'm not sure, but I believe Voyager got sent to the Delta Quadrant with a full supply of antimatter, which should have gotten them around 5 years of normal operation. Which you could probably stretch to 8-10 years with careful use.
But you are correct, the show never did address how they were going to solve their long term antimatter needs. There's some fun ways they could have addressed that, for sure.

>the impulse engines are directed, open-ended fusion reactors
Indeed they are, and vectored by force fields. Pretty cool. They're not -that- weak though. With the exception of warp drive, shields and weapons fusion reactors are able to power every other function aboard a ship. And with auxiliary power (batteries) they're able to power the latter two as well.
Also on fusion power alone impulse engines can accelerate a ship to 0.75c.

>not with Trek tech
To refresh my memory I looked it up in the TNG Technical Manual (I love that thing) and it says it right there. Generating antimatter suffers a 24% energy loss.

>>94734148
>Although they're clones we know they aren't a designer being like the Jem'Hadar (assuming they don't go the STO route of having a baseline species).

I vaguely recall speculation that Jem'Hadar were built on the Tosk.

>They're genetically engineered, but it's true we don't know if they're all clones.

Indeed we just don't know for sure. The point I was mainly aiming for is that the Dominion can get a new Weyoun up and Weyouning faster than the Federation can get new Starfleet personnel up and Starfleeting.

I'd presume that because the Dominion can with Weyoun they could do the same with the rest of the Vortas - though there's not enough evidence to say for sure, but I think it's more plausible than not.

>>94734278
>TNG Technical Manual
I love it too, but sadly it's not canon. None of the technical manuals are.

>>94734041
Unironically VOY did it better with their "what if there was a spaceship that you could fuck (and also wanted to kill you for some reason)" episode.

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>>94706657
>and his favorite - "boobs"

A better character than a lot of nuTrek.

>>94734311
I think that's mostly for the cloaking and for the fact that there were originally plans to have the hunters who were after Tosk show up on Dominion ships. Give them a more cosmopolitan flair. Sadly it was not to be. Still, who knows, there's probably some merit there somewhere. Tosk are clearly based on the hunters, but with some added abilities. I mean presumably the rest can't cloak like that. It does kind of imply that maybe the Dominion may have juiced them with some Jem'Hadar traits so they could hunt the result, earning their loyalty. But, of course, still speculative.

>>94734311
>The point I was mainly aiming for is that the Dominion can get a new Weyoun up and Weyouning faster than the Federation can get new Starfleet personnel up and Starfleeting.
They used to. If you can find their cloning facilities then not so much. They really do put all their eggs in one basket. You think they'd have learned after the Federation destroyed their only station for making the White.

And of course originally Vorta weren't clones. This was added as a means to get Jeffrey Combs' Weyoun back in the series. They figured if Jem'Hadar are a clone species why not the Vorta too? That doesn't really change things one way or the other, it's just nifty trivia. I mean can you blame them?

>>94728182
>>94729744
>because some things were retconned in the movies and Filoni Wars garbage there was no canon
Odd revisionist take. Do you extend that concept to Didney Wars as well, where new media is frequently retconning the old?

>>94734319
That's a shame. I've referred to it often over the years.
I think I'll still keep using it though, unless shown otherwise.
Its level of detail and internal consistency is too good not to.

>>94734377
>They really do put all their eggs in one basket.

Poor writing, unfortunately.

>I mean can you blame them?

I can blame neither the real, behind the scenes people who made that decision nor the fictional, in-world Founders.

>>94734377
>>94734561
To be fair, the Dominion couldn't have anticipated The Sisko not only cockblocking their relief force from the Gamma Quadrant, but enlisting a bunch of extratemporal gods to blockade the wormhole, cutting off the Alpha Quadrant expeditionary force permanently. And they still almost won!

>>94734577
Certainly, but it seems to me to still be short-sighted to have only one White production facility and one Vorta cloning facility, considering that both are vital to prosecuting the war in the Alpha Quadrant.

>>94734612
The Dominion try to use proxies whenever possible and limit their direct involvement to a minimum. Limited facilities in the Alpha Quadrant aren't surprising by that measure. Total war on the Alpha/Beta Quadrants was accelerated a century above the time table thanks to the wormhole in the first place, so the Dominion's main plan was likely more of a "let's try and get these idiots to kill each other as much as possible and then swoop in to pick at what's left" with the existing Alpha Dominion only being enough to ensure the Cardassians were marching forward. Even if the immediate war wasn't successful, big deal they'll just send in more reinforcements, or gradually expand the long way until that century time table is fulfilled.

What fucked them was the virus being able to get into the Gamma Quadrant. Without that, even with the Prophets blockading the wormhole, the Founders would've simply played the long game because they had the luxury to. And even if the Founders had all died, that's still a bunch of Vorta who have every reason to keep the masquerade going in operational control of the Dominion, who would then have every reason to go scorched earth without mercy.

tl;dr the Dominion had no reason to care about the immediate war, and it's why Bashir, O'Brien and Odo winning the peace was far more important than the immediate military victory.

>>94734494
That's the best thing for it, but I'd consider the lack of mention of fuel in TNG, VOY, and DS9 to largely contradict the idea that Federation ships aren't indefinitely self-sustaining, barring component failure. VOY especially, but not a single plotline in DS9 involves targeting fuel supplies.

A lot of people headcanon Trek to be more zero-sum than it is in practice for 'realism,' which is fine as a headcanon, but that's not what's in the shows. I know certain Trekkie youtubers put way more weight than they should on the way the Technical Manual acts like Federation ships are constantly refueling at stations offscreen, but doing so requires it to override show canon - books never override show canon in Trek. They're beta canon.

Applying real life, modern day resource constraints to the Federation is one of the things that makes PIC's premise impossible to reconcile with... well, Star Trek.

Now, all that said, you COULD also read that text in >>94734278 to imply the net loss of energy is actually a net loss of antimmatter output compared to the energy put in, since the text only explicitly describes the process of the production of antimatter, not later annihilation with matter. Getting regular matter is effectively free in comparison, and that's half the energy in M/AM reactions.

Assuming this means 76g of antimatter requires 100g worth of mass energy to generate, the 152g worth of mass energy from annihilating the generated antimatter with 76g of normal matter would be a net gain of 52g of mass energy from 152g of input. This would make Federation matter-energy conversion as a whole only about 33% efficient, but still indefinitely sustainable given sufficient hydrogen, without technically refuting the technical manual. It also puts generating antimatter far outside fusion energy, which is consistent with fusion being what we see as emergency power, and loss of warp core stranding a ship regardless of its antimatter stores.

>>94734577
They still had time to build new cloning facilities, surely. One of the key features of the Dominion is supposed to be an extremely impressive ability to rebuild, for instance, their shipyards and their fleets.

>>94732148
>>94732231
>>94732187
>>94732289
>>94732269
Nog had a great character growth arc. Rom just changed for no apparent reason in order to be a funnier foil to Quark. Early Rom is just a super-generic normal ferangi waiter (who can't fix things).

Talking about Ferangi is weird because there was definitely behind-the-scenes creative difficulty finding their identify, but there is definitely ALSO an in-world process where their culture is transforming. This encourages people to come up with in-world explanations for the writing rooms and their growing pains. For instance, it's easy for me to believe that early Rom was trying very hard to look and sound like a normal ferangi, whereas later Rom is just more confident and that's why he seems weirder.

>>94734311
>I vaguely recall speculation that Jem'Hadar were built on the Tosk.
When I rewatched DS9 a few years ago I remember thinking that this was obvious and that there would have to be some sort of followup but there wasn't.

>>94734366
>It does kind of imply that maybe the Dominion may have juiced them with some Jem'Hadar traits so they could hunt the result, earning their loyalty.
I actually never thought of it that way, I just assumed that the founders saw those guys with their genetically-optimized perfect fugitive and used it as the basis for their perfect soldier.
Also the guys who chase Tosk for fun are probably going to be some of the best manhunters in the galaxy and it would have been cool to see more of them. The fact that they were the first ones through the wormhole makes me think that their antics get out of hand quite regularly and that their gamma-quadrant neighbors are just used to it.

>>94735080
>When I rewatched DS9 a few years ago I remember thinking that this was obvious and that there would have to be some sort of followup but there wasn't.

I went and read on Memory Alpha that there's a DS9 Companion Book that implies the Founders engineered both the Jem'Hadar and the Tosk, and that the writers wanted to follow up with the Tosk and the Hunters but they never got around to it.

>>94735020
>Rom just changed for no apparent reason
I think the reason stated makes sense. A lot of things about Rom were sliding, slowly, during the seasons. He was less abrasive, less forceful, and more the loveable dope. Check the season 1 episode where Keiko is setting up the school and tries to enroll Nog. Definitely not the lovable Rom we'd know by the end.

Of course the real reason is behind the scenes they were still trying to find out how to make certain characters work. They actually did some AMAZING work with Martok, Garak, Rom, and Nog, but some just never did quite pop. They admit they really screwed up Shakaar in that he was much less interesting and useful as a politician than he was as the crusty ex-resistance leader with a heart of gold (or candle ghost!). In-universe I can see it. Like other said, the Federation rubbed off on him in a good way. Forming the union and later joining the station maintenance crew was a nice move, but we'd seen before that he could stand up to Quark. Him nearly flushing Quark out an airlock because he was tired of his brother's abuse? Yeah, pretty bad, but not quite as bad if we see it in the light of him trying so damn hard to be a good Ferengi. My personal favorite was early season 2 when he sold Quark's seat on the runabout and evacuated the station with a Dabo girl. My man! Sneaking things out of Quark's storeroom, using parts from his disruptor for repairs, showing he can break into Quark's "secure" storage, and, oh man, there's a lot of little things.

In a way you can argue the better part of his nature was always there. They kept that and chipped away most of the nastier stuff. Hell, all of it, really. I think for the better.

>>94735315
Yea, I basically agree, but I know what better writing would have looked like. Early Rom would have had dopey moments, and later Rom would have occasionally put on his conservative-face, in order to sell the idea of the transformation. Retcons and transformations have a complicated relationship in Star Trek.

I don't personally get the idea that off-world ferangi are more conservative, but I can still see why someone would think that, they give you a lot of questions about ferangi and they give you a lot of fuel for your imagination to answer them. All the ferangi we see are weird outliers in some way, and especially with ferangi you never know which face is sincere and which face is just another business-face.

>>94734457
sweetie, it's not revisionism if you can point to historical interviews where people were outright saying it all along

the fact you haven't done your reading but want to position yourself as expert really doesn't make people want to engage, and since this shitpost spree of yours is about engagement, here's some free advice

work on your tight five

>>94735384
The thing is this is very common in shows like this. If things don't work, you find ways to change them. Maybe it doesn't always fit as neatly as you'd like, but you do what you gotta do. Sometimes they try to change things and it STILL doesn't work. Lookin' at you, Neelix!

Another major shift is Doctor Bashir. Some people really find his character more interesting when he was revealed to be genetically engineered. The actor HATED it. He felt he became discount Cmdr. Data spewing facts and probabilities. One character I wish they'd had more time to work on was Ezri. Her development was so rushed since they only had one season to work with, but they did what they could.

Speaking of single season changes that were controversial, Damar. Man, some people HATE that he to a redemption arc due to killing Ziyal. I personally hated more that he died! Why? Because he was at least trying to be a better man and could have helped Cardassia reform itself. In that way his going from a cold blooded murderer of Dukat's daughter to what he was in late season 7 would mirror what, one would hope, would happen to the Cardassians. Alas it was not to be. Now the place is trashed and there's really nobody to step up. Garak is still around, but, let's be honest, he's no the man for the job and I'd argue he knows it. He'll do what he has to to drive out the Dominion, but he knows deep down he's still an utter bastard.

I suppose Damar is still a microcosm for Cardassia. It's dead, Jim. I still think it sucks. Without a reformer who truly believes they need to be better, who has seen that the brutality and has no more stomach for it, odds are great that Cardassians will become embittered in defeat until one of the surviving old guard decides they need to go back to the old ways and become strong again. Dukat 2.0.

>>94710055
I just have one question.

What is Trek?

>>94735734
As is often the case with these loose ends... and I really do mean often... I really like what STO does with Garak. He's now a humble advisor... and still very much retains his edge in subterfuge, putting it to work to help restore Cardassia.

He does it in a very Garak, very Cardassian way, too - focus on restoring and defending Cardassia, and be willing and able to play nice with the neighbors. He's willing to support joining an alliance with the Federation... but not joining the Federation. He's learned from the Federation, but only insofar as pushing to restore a Cardassia without the glaring flaws of its past. And because it's STO, they got Robinson back to voice him.

He essentially ends up serving the role for the new democratic Cardassia that his father served for the old regime. Since there's no Obsidian Order anymore... officially... he's likely more like the unofficial official head of the new Cardassia's equivalent to Section 31. Or, of course, merely a humble advisor.

Also finding out in that storyline that the Female Changeling was the actual first changeling to harm another is such an incredibly appropriate and satisfying twist I almost wish it had been a plot point in the show.

As for Damar... by the time he kills Ziyal, it's already too late for him and for Cardassia to redeem themselves, by themselves. That chance was signed away by Dukat. The only window of opportunity for a rebellion without a Dominion-style "wipe out the population and implant a genetic disease in the survivors" reprisal is right at the end of the war. It's a tragedy in slow motion whether he kills Ziyal or not, and dying in the moment they finally learn the lesson they should have learned before the Dominion war is the story of Cardassia up to that point.

>>94736198
Trek is an optimistic show about the struggle of good of humanity winning over our darker impulses, finding the silver lining in the darkest of moments, and the wonder of exploration and discovery of the final frontier

NuTrek is an edgy Star Wars bootleg written by people who are upset they're stuck writing for Star Trek instead of whatever big thing they think they're supposed to work on.

>>94736198
it's a bicycle

>>94736230
Never played STO. Please tell me he actually refers to himself repeatedly as a "humble advisor" akin to being just a "humble tailor". I can hear his voice saying that.

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>>94736230
What I like about the sudden turn of Cardassia and Damar is that they learned it the hard way, not from the Federation being nice and showing them a better way, but by realizing they'd actually gotten into bed with a bigger, nastier monster than they thought. The external force that taught them was the Dominion. I doubt Dukat ever even realized how badly he'd miscalculated. Hard to say because what he sought in the fire caves was to become an even greater monster still. With apologies to Marc Alaimo, whom I know preferred Dukat to not be the villain, he's so damn good and awful at it. You just know that Dukat is repeating his past follies and that the Pah-Wraith surely won't see him as an equal and will turn out to be probably so much worse than the Dominion was. He just kept repeating the same cycles of self-destruction but on a scale that tried to bring everyone down with him.

>>94735734
>Damar. Man, some people HATE that he to a redemption arc due to killing Ziyal.
People hate that? I loved it. It's not like he did it in one episode, the entire season where he's the leader he's drinking so heavily he might be 90% Kanar by volume. Between Ziyal and being the leader it was clear that he was haunted by all of his choices which set him up for the actual redemption.

>>94740600
I suppose to me the kicker is that he didn't kill her out of any great sense of malice. He didn't view it as a murder, but an execution. She had betrayed them, and he was simply being a good cardassian while removing a reason for Dukat to linger on the station putting himself in harms way. He BADLY miscalculated Dukat's feelings on the matter.

I never really felt too much for Ziyal's character. I mean she wasn't bad, but pretty boring. Not a reason for her to die, but certainly I didn't feel as much punch as some people did. I largely felt her relationship to Garak was kind of creepy. Nevermind she was the son of his personal and family enemy, but the age difference. I know that's a reason why they found an older actress to play her (they went through like three different actresses in total).

>>94735315
I forgot about this guy, probably because it's a pretty forgettable episode, but I remember Quark's el-aurian rival. Phew. They had bigger plans for him but it did NOT work out. Wasn't he also supposed to be Guinan's kid?

There was also the woman who was attracted to Odo in the episode where he was made human. She was meant to be a bigger love interest but they realized she just didn't click with him so they abandoned it. DS9 was overall pretty good about finding ways to make characters work, but also quietly shelve them when they don't.

>>94740907
>writers wanted Quark's rival to be a more grittier Dirty Harry type character
>casting department hands them Jack Skellington
I love Trek for weird little stories like that.

>>94741079
Wow, I somehow never knew that Jack Skellington was Jerry from Fright Night. Where has this information been all my live?

>>94734612
>>94734904
I don't think they had just 1 cloning facility. The one blown up during Damars declaration was simply the one where weyouns were made.

Regarding the white, my assumption (based on them trying to trade for whatever that world the autist squad picked out) was they simply didn't have the natural ingredients in the alpha quadrant to produce it there (at least not easily), and had to scramble to ration and find alternatives when the wormhole and as cut off to them.

Now, having 1 white storage facility after getting blockaded was absolutely dumb as shit, but the Dominion loved and died by being stupidly centralised.

>>94743219
>the Dominion loved and died by being stupidly centralized
Yes, also they were always afraid of jem'hadar rebellion, a centralized storage facility is stupid if you're afraid of sabotage but it makes sense if you're more afraid of rogue jem'hadar. Not to mention the vorta, Jem'hadar and vorta hate each other for the same reason why the love founders, it's a safeguard against rebellion, they want to make sure that any rogue vorta (like Good Weyoun) will have to go it alone. The white is the iron chain of the founders, it's not enough to have a system that works, rebellion has to be impossible.

I mean, when you look at it from their point of view you can see how a jem'hadar rebellion in the alpha quadrant is actually worse than a wholesale defeat in the alpha quadrant. Ketracel white is hard to manufacture because that's the entire point of it, if it were easy to manufacture then it wouldn't work. Before the wormhole, the idea of Goran'Agar surviving without white would have scared them more than anything else in the alpha quadrant, if they had forseen that then they probably would have called off the whole invasion and just played the long game.

>>94743219
>>94743632
the Dominion was just badly written on key points

they're willing to risk their irreplaceable Founders on suicide infiltration missions impersonating kidnapped or murdered individuals but they've perfected cloning to the point that they can program a clone's personality and produce a new one within hours

total morons

the Jem'Hadar rebellion was a quiet storyline that never really progressed even though it was touched on multiple times; the drug-soldiers thing is straight-up Gene, cribbed from Encounter at Farpoint (again, the drug soldiers show up within the ten years before First Contact, which is just incredible to think they're around at the same time as Zephram Cochrane's surprisingly high tech hillbilly clan) and so the possibility of a rebellion was implicitly always there, with it explored in three episodes (at least; it's touched on during the Dominion occupation episodes too) - "To The Death", "Hippocratic Oath" and "The Abandoned" all explicitly deal with it, while "Rocks and Shoals" deals with it more obliquely, since those Jem'Hadar simply go insane without their fix and their leadership remain loyal

but taking the show in that direction - eg the Alpha/Gamma rivalry - more fully would have distracted from the momentum of the sacred war arc, and nothing must distract from Rappin' Ronnie Moore's holy wars

>>94743766
>the Dominion was just badly written on key points
Nah. It's badly written how they keep letting Sisko live but every t.v. badguy does that.
>perfected cloning to the point that they can program a clone's personality and produce a new one within hours
You're probably thinking of the Parada (the guys who made a working copy of O'brien and it worked so well that it tried to foil their plot). The dominion just uses cloned races for troops and officials and even then the clones come out wrong sometimes.

>>94735734
Honestly that
>Yeah Damar, what kind of people give those orders?
scene with Kira, Garak, and Damar is one of the few good parts of the WAR arc. I agree that it's sad they felt they had to kill him off so as to not "reward" the character for killing Ziyal.

I was drinking a lot of kahula at the time I was watching Damar's spiral into alcoholism and it really spoke to me.

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>>94744192

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>>94744235
What was being said was that kanar looks really fucking good
Do we know what it's meant to taste like? Visually it reminded me of picrel but I don't remember how anyone described it.

And is romulan ale "burning" supposed to be like, that leafy alcoholic taste of gin/absinthe or actual spice like spirits with pepper?

>>94744496
>Do we know what it's meant to taste like?
Probably not great. Cardassians drink hot fish juice in the morning instead of coffee so their taste is alien.
As for Romulan Ale, the burning almost certainly comes from the strength of the alcohol. So absinthe, everclear, moonshine and the like.

>>94744496
All we know is what the real life prop tasted like, which was literally sugar-free corn syrup.

>>94743848
even Wrongoun came out better than some of the Changeling impersonations

that one on Earth that had to blow itself up just to start a terror campaign was a total waste of time

>>94744708
>Cardassians drink hot fish juice in the morning instead of coffee so their taste is alien.
There are deviants that like [food meme], I'm sure there are deviants right on this planet that are into that right now

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>>94744496
Seen plenty of recipes for a Kanar Sazerac, which swaps the rye whisky for Fernet-Branca and cognac. A very dry and spicy drink.
>>94744708
>their taste is alien
Humans used to drink vinegar in variety of forms from ancient posca to more modern shrub. Think there were some drinks that used diluted garum.

>>94744714
>sugar-free corn syrup
What the fuck man.
I like the gross texture it seems to have, when he throws it against the mirror you can really see it. It's better that they don't tell you what it tastes like because then your imagination takes what it does know about cardassian food and fills in the blanks.

>>94746045
They originally used just regular syrup, but Casey Biggs was drinking so much of it while filming that he'd get jittery sugar rushes, so they switched to sugar-free.

>>94746080
It makes perfect sense in this context, I'm simply offended by the fact that such a substance exists in the first place.

>>94746080
>>94746104
It's the "retakes with eating/drinking" problem - every swig you see an character take during a scene could be half a dozen or more swigs the actor took, which is why a lot of things have the actors fake drinking.

Eating is harder for an actor to fake, so there are likely to be camera cuts and chewing nothing. Also real food props will pretty much always be cold and disgusting, because they'll likely be sitting out on the table for potentially an entire day.

>>94746104
>i'm offended by molecules

food science is not for you

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>>94746235
Props to Frakes because it seems like if they needed someone to actually eat weird alien food it was always Riker.

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In Starfleet, does the captain of a ship have to have the rank of captain? Like, does every Starfleet supply ship, science vessel, cargo hauler, etc. have person with the rank of captain in command?

>>94747070
No, and there have been multiple cases where the person in command of the ship was referred to as captain without having the rank of Captain. This applies in the real world navy as well.

>>94747070
>>94747107
Picard was given command of the Stargazer when he was only 7 years out of the Academy. No way he was any higher than lieutenant commander, and his promotions to commander and captain would've occurred during his tenure as Stargazer captain.

>>94747146
I know he was awarded captaincy of the Stargazer after he assumed command due to the acting captain's death, but can't find when he was promoted to captain. I believe Sisko was still a commander when he got the Defiant, but it seemed to be more of a monitor for the station, rather than his new commission as a captain.

>>94747107
Nog and O'Brien specifically discussed it at one point

>>94747146
>>94747070
Picard was helmsman of the Stargazer when he took command in 2333 and the ship was lost in 2355 (due to this having been written in TNG S1, the stardates are all fucked up so we can't pin it down more than that); there's no indication that he held a higher rank than Ensign (having graduated the academy) at that time, but of the on-screen regular helmsmen of the various ships, the tendency is toward Ensign or even Crewman with few ever above the rank of Lieutenant

Picard graduated from the academy in 2327; it's not clear when he transferred to the Stargazer, but he'd previously served on the Reliant and later claimed to have been transferred "dozens of times" between 2327 and 2365, so it seems he was moved around a lot between graduation and the Stargazer and between the Stargazer and Enterprise-D, possibly in the same way he was transferred off the Enterprise-D in favor of Jellico and transferred back, possibly in the same way Mariner got transferred a lot

the likelihood is that Picard skipped everything between Ensign and Captain

>>94747343
He was a lieutenants when he met Sarek for the first time. A novel says he was a lieutenant commander and second in command of Stargazer (on top of being a helmsman) which would explain how he was able to assume command after the captain died.

>>94747343
>the likelihood is that Picard skipped everything between Ensign and Captain
It's not uncommon to put someone ranked O-4 or occasionally even O-3 in charge of a smaller ship once they've demonstrated some command skills in real-life navies. Given his career up to that point Picard was likely a junior Lieutenant on the Stargazer. He may have started out as an unambitious science-track student, but after his near-death experience he switched to command track and began aggressively cross-training. He's already done at least one full cruise as an Ensign and is well into another. If his ships aren't doing five-year deep space missions but rather several 1-2 year hitches, then he could well have served under 4 or 5 captains by that point. The thing is, every officer he served under after he left the Academy trusts him implicitly and treats him like he shits gold bricks. We know he's been headhunted at least a couple times along the way too; it probably doesn't hurt that he's effectively a second Science officer who's a damned good pilot. It's very likely that Starfleet only let him keep the Stargazer until she got back to port, but that experience would be a huge flaming feather in his cap when they're looking for someone to be the executive officer on another ship while they overhaul the 'Gazer. Do a hitch or two as XO, pick up LtCdr along the way, and now there are multiple lower-ranked Admirals and other senior Captains all going "yeah, this guy deserves a ship, send him on a survey mission or something". I find it extremely unlikely that Picard would stay an Ensign or LT for over 10 years with that kind of record and political capital.

In re: the Reliant, I suspect she was probably serving as an academy ship or on light duty right after Picard got out of the Academy, it'd make sense given how trashed the boat was sixty years earlier.

>>94747343
Picard's history is one that's completely fucked up by people trying to make bible facts canon even after S1 contradicted them. It's the equivalent of someone trying to come up with a way to have Data still built by mysterious aliens after Datalore.

Actually, now I type that out, "A mysterious alien under the fabricated identity Noonien Soong lived among humans for some time and attempted to encapsulate all that he admired about them into an artificial life-form." probably would have worked out OK as a follow up, so Picard has it worse.

>>94747107
>>94747070
Honorary rank Captain vs Military rank Captain. Anyone who 'captains' a ship is called the Captain, but they don't need to hold the rank of captain.

I remember a TNG episode where some guy they save called himself the Captain of his TOS era shuttle, Wesley mocks him for it but he's corrected as it's technically true.

Would be really impractical to get a captain rank on board every Oberth and whatever those single nascel patrol boats were called (Toronto? Hermes?) who's only function was to float half destroyed in mass fleet battle scenes.

>>94748398
>called himself
Anyone can call themselves anything they like. Just wondering about canon examples of people given a captain's commission on a Starfleet ship while known for a fact to have a rank lower than captain. So no shuttle pilots or stuff like Defiant being placed under Sisko's command. A Starfleet officer below the rank of captain given the command of a starship by Starfleet.

>>94747515
good point

>>94747699
different Reliant; the one from WOK is turned into the Genesis Planet

I wouldn't say the guy who started his career picking a fight with Nausicaans had the highest chances of promotions

>>94747766
aside from forgetting Picard claims to have been a lieutenant when meeting Sarek ("at his son's wedding", though the son is never mentioned by name and Spock never mentions being married, this proves nothing; Spock didn't even admit he had parents), all of that was on-screen canon

it's still extremely unlikely that Picard was of a higher rank than Lt when promoted; the beta canon novel where that wedding happens sets it just two years after Picard's graduation and a full four years before his promotion to captain, which is hardly a stellar trajectory, if anything he would seem to stall early on, which is equally weird for a guy who's seen as such a wonderful officer

>>94748491
legally the captain of a craft is the officer in command, which is important for determining the chain o'command and ultimately responsibility for actions of that craft and its crew and passengers as well as property rights over any cargo or disputed salvage

in modern usage a private boat owner who has no formal skipper license would still be held liable as the "captain" of that vessel in the event of collisions or other nautical lawbreaking, and in the even of all flight crew on an airliner being incapacitated, the senior cabin crew leader becomes the captain of the craft (they are expected to be able to follow instructions from ground control about engaging and monitoring the autopilot, which can land the craft for them)

>>94748491
Data is given command of a Nebula class during the Federation's blockade of the Klingon/Romulan border in the TNG plot about the Klingon civil war. His douchebag XO even addresses him as Captain at the very end of it.

>>94734328
My god that episode gave me confused dreams at the time.

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Been watching I, Claudius and I cannot deal with Stewart having hair.

>>94740425
I do know he reminisces about being "plain, simple Garak" wistfully while standing in his old tailor shop on DS9 in one mission.

>>94749835
>what if a spaceship looked like a donut somebody sat on

STO's ship artists (some of the best in the business - I feel like not enough people are aware of some of the big names STO has had bringing its ships to life over the years) have to do the best with what they get sometimes. DIS 32nd century Federation styling is ass. DIS 23rd century Klingon ship styling is also staggeringly ass.

This is coming from somebody who actually likes DIS 23rd century Federation ship styling.

Not the Crossfield class though, that thing's fucking hideous. Also completely inconsistent with the rest of the visual language for the 23rd century Federation. Even ENT was at least consistent.

>>94753140
That's just a stolen Stargate design.
Praised be the Ori.

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>>94753140
Hell, the Crossfield is inconsistent with DIS ships. At least they're fucking silver.

STO has salvaged some designs though

>>94753140
>Not the Crossfield class though, that thing's fucking hideous. Also completely inconsistent with the rest of the visual language for the 23rd century Federation.

Gene called, he said stop fucking lying about Ralph McQuarrie's work

>>94753774
McQuarrie did not design the Crossfield. John Eaves designed the Crossfield as a shittier version of a sketch by Paul Christopher which was a shittier version of a rejected design that McQuarrie did before he got pulled away to do more Star Wars. Which is why the finished Crossfield is inconsistent with both pre-established 23rd century aesthetics and STD's own aesthetics.

>>94753140
>completely inconsistent with the rest of the visual language for the 23rd century Federation
I think with adjusting some of the details it would fit better. I don't mind there being the odd ship class that's completely different. Even in real life there's always the weird one out that's not a complete disaster, but doesn't offer anything radical to warrant their design over the standard, so they don't survive beyond the initial order.

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>>94753800
but it's not

it's not even inconsistent with the other rejected Enterprise redesign which ended up on-screen in several TOS movies (and a couple of TNG episode)

it's the same basic silhouette as the McQuarrie drawings with variant nacelles (so what, so does the Enterprise - even between the pilot and TOS, never mind the later changes) with the same wide shuttle bay (that they'd never use because of budgets, just like the TNG main shuttlebay) and a moving cutout from the saucer well shit if you can't accept that then you can't accept BoP wing adjustments or Warbird internal voids either so what the fuck have you been watching? are you literally mad at the Oberth because you should be but for different reasons

you can't call it an unreasonable hull because the same era has the fucking Oberth; you can't say the angular shapes, boxy hull or long nacelles are out because the bullshit that is the class J has disproportionately long nacelles (as realized by CGI to Jefferies original designs) and in previous appearances was just an angular Tholian wedge with some shitty nacelles stuck on, while the bullshit that is the Antares type has dumb short nacelles and is just a collection of boxes stuck together and let's not get started on the fucking Huron type

>>94744714
>corn
>sugar free

Pick ONE.
Bloody american education right there

>>94755394
>doesn't know about "sugar-free corn syrup"
>calls others dumb
Yes, it's not actually corn syrup, it's a substitute that has the properties of corn syrup without the sugar content. You know, like how there's "plant-based butter". It's not butter, because butter is a dairy product, but it's an alternative that functions similarly to the thing.

>>94755125
I'm not going to bother addressing all your individual points because they all stem from the same flaw of missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if specific individual parts kinda sorta look similar to other ships if you squint, because the collective whole of the Discovery makes it obviously stand out apart from McQuarrie's original design, every pre-STD 23rd century Starfleet ship, and every 23rd century Starfleet ship in STD itself. This is immediately obvious if you have functioning eyes and a brain.

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>>94755125
>>94755639
I can point out some rather glaring differences that break the comparison to the Crossfield silhouette pretty quickly.
McQuarrie's Phase II:
1. doesn't break Gene's nacelle LOS rule
2. doesn't have nacelles sticking back that are as long as the saucer and secondary hull combined
3. doesn't have holes in the saucer
4. doesn't shove the shuttlebay into the wedge shape in a trapezoidal recess between the nacelles
5. actually has nacelle pylons
6. doesn't have the saucer pulled down and back and fused weirdly with part of the neck sticking over it
7. doesn't have the Crossfield's inexplicable frontal preggers belly on the secondary hull (note its absence in picrel)
8. isn't covered with nonsensical, genuinely meaningless greebles - seriously why did they Star Wars greeble their Star Trek hero ship, even the NX's texturing is literally just supposed to be plates they made the hull out of

...Alright maybe I can't do this quickly.

For the record, I hate the McQuarrie design, and I still think DIS did not do it justice at all.

>>94755959
Personally, I prefer the nacelles stretching back. Galaxy style nacelles that mount from the rear and go forwards always felt a little off. I do love the Galaxy and I think they work on that design, but, for example, I hate the Intrepid's nacelles. The ships starts off with a nice sleek, but not aggressively pointy design, and then just ends. Like a woman with no ass.

>>94755959
>seriously why did they Star Wars greeble their Star Trek hero ship
If you hire the Star Wars guy, you're going to get a Star Wars design. Everything about Phase II, Planet of the Titans, and TMP was Gene overreacting to the success of Star Wars and 2001. He wanted Star Trek back on the air or in theatres, and was willing to capitulate to studio execs about stuff like visual design if he thought it would make them more likely to approve and fund a new Trek project.

>>94756037
I think that's more a problem with the Intrepid's butt - it has that flat block thing underneath it between the nacelles for the variable geometry pivot points, but that thing doesn't flow with the lines of the ship at all. The forward nacelles aren't so much the issue as the bizarre way the Intrepid does its pylons, IMO.

Also, the Intrepid's pylons attach solidly in the middle of the nacelles - there's exactly as much hanging behind them as there is sticking forward, but it's difficult to see because the pylons sweep forward and ship shots don't usually linger on the ugliest parts of Voyager, thankfully.

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>>94756857
>Also, the Intrepid's pylons attach solidly in the middle of the nacelles - there's exactly as much hanging behind them as there is sticking forward
From the mounting point, yes. But the pylons themselves are swept forwards. To illustrate my point, I find something like pic related more agreeable. Not perfect, mind you, I still find the profile of the nacelles clash with the profile of the ship, but the placement is more suitable.

>>94726417
I mean, the reasoning they're using is pretty sound. A Klingon got hit with something that turns you into things from alternate universes and he turning into a Discovery Klingon. It's a pretty explicit "Discovery happens in an alternate universe" statement to me.

Wait I just realised that voyager straight up uses footage from Event Horizon in S4 E10 lmao

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>>94757877
"Where we're going we won't need eyes to see!"
"But we will need coffee, so get the hell off my bridge!"

Rewatching Picard season 2 atm
ngl I kind of like it more than season 3.
S2 is experimental scitzo-writing that at least toys with some neat ideas off and on, whereas S3 is just TNG fanwank at its most obnoxious.

>>94758257
You don't like watching things that remind you of older things you already liked?

>>94758257
Low fuckin bar, all the same.

She literally seduced the borg queen and taught her empathy.
Fuck yea.