Kill yourself

>>94707130
What’s your major malfunction?

>>94707121
It's better on all fronts IMO but it is crunchier and a lot more granular. If that's your jam go for it. If you want something lighter than PF2e I'd look at Shadow of the Weird Wizard. I've had a lot of success using that as a 5e replacement.

>>94707121
I'd take it over 5E any day. That's not to say it's my game of choice, but it's solid, a bit too concerned with balance maybe, with a lot of feats that let you do things you should just be able to do anyways, but still, fundamentally solid and definitely better than 5E.

>>94707121
Imagine taking 5e, adding tons more math, but not actually increasing the game's depth in any meaningful way.

>>94707121
Genuinely? Better in most ways. It's far easier to run is the big thing, and players have many more choices as they progress through the game, while also being better balanced. There are issues of course- in particular despite the amount of spells, most are just ass so magic users will be taking the same 10 or so that actually work each level on their tradition's list. Also, keep in mind you shouldn't NEED a skill feat to attempt what a skill feat allows you to sometimes, just give the action a higher DC or something. As for dungeon crawls-- it actually has an interesting system for time mattering due to a few systems that break time into 10 minute chunks. Lets you roll monsters roaming dungeons and the like.

>>94707121
It's crunchy enough and that crunch is frontloaded enough a lot of 5e groups will simply bounce off.

>>94707121
Not that great, it seems like the authors missed a huge issue with it - it's all in French

>>94707121
It's got more fiddly bits but it's the same kind of game. That's why you can publish a whole campaign module created for one game for the other. Both are centered around big setpiece encounters strung together by skill checks and travel procedures dressed up with varying amounts of roleplay. Pathfinder's got more to grab onto, rules-wise, which includes more explicit procedures for the GM (which can be a feature or a bug, depending on how much GM fiat you like in your games), and there's books on books of character options for build autists, which, again, could be a good thing or a bad thing depending on your group. There's a million little rules differences to drill down into but in terms of the actual play experience they're both pretty similar and both offer a similar kind of playstyle. Neither of them are really dungeon crawlers.

>>94707121
Poorly.

>>94707527
I hope someone got fired for that blunder

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>>94707254
>Imagine taking 5e, adding tons more math, but not actually increasing the game's depth in any meaningful way
The amount of delusion out there with people thinking it's somehow not just all smoke and mirrors disturbs me.

>>94707121
3 action economy is fun, it leads to a lot more experimentation then just "I roll to attack" and in my experience you can do a lot more memorable combat encounters. My main issue is that Paizo is so obsessed with balance and wanting to give players unique options that the unique options lose anything that makes them cool for sake of balance.

races that can fly can't fly until like level 7 or whatever, you can play as a skeleton but skeletons somehow can still get poisoned and need to breath air otherwise it's OP.

>>94707130
i think OP is French so it should be
>tue-toi

>>94707158
>It's better on all fronts
it has even worse magic than 5e and 5e magic is already fucking dogshit

>>94709405
>worse
I can cast Sticks to snakes and raise dead actually has a time limit like it did before 5th Edition Diapers and Dogshit

>>94707121
Easier to run, easier to adjust, the biggest thing is to get the most out of characters, team work needs to happen which doesnt work with main character syndrome people.

>>94707121
Aside from having a bunch of pretty meaningless player options (feats and spell mostly) it's just better.
You can even have a more "flat" progression like in 5e by using the Proficiency without Level Variant Rule if the DM is willing to put the effort.

>>94709405
I like the magic more. Cry about it.

>>94707121
Just run 5e.

>>94709853
shill

>>94707121
>how well does pic related work as a replacement for 5e and 5.5e when it comes to a traditional fantasy game?
Quite well.
>How well does it handle dungeon crawling and exploration?
Better than 5e does it by a mile. There are actual exploration rules, dungeon rules, and everything you need to do this properly instead of handwaving a bunch of shit or requiring the DM to make shit up.
>How robust is it mechanically compared to 5e?
lol. This is a very silly question, considering PF2es big claim to fame is being a robust mechanical system whose rules actually function and arent missing in valuable areas unlike 5e. CR functions and well. There are rules for everything you need and didn't realise you need. Classes are balanced well so that none are like the 5e ranger and god wizards don't exist. Spellcasting is not the bullshit encounter enders or class replaces it is in 5e or 3e, being properly balanced to provide power but not at the cost of other classes.

Its a good system, give it a try. See if you like it and if you don't, find something else.

>>94710346
>rests between every encounter to get max hp, traps that are meaningless, no wandering monsters because anything not scripted is either mathematically too easy and pointless or too difficult and a tpk, etc

Sure bud

>>94710346
buy an ad

>>94710434
>rests between every encounter to get max hp,
5e does the same thing, except in PF2e it can be as little as 10 minutes, the minimum for a short rest. And if your DM doesn't want that to happen they can put pressure on the group to keep moving. This is a bad and stupid complaint.
>traps that are meaningless,
lol no. Traps in PF2e actually do things, can be quite dangerous, and higher level ones can be a pain to stop. Not to mention that the trap category also includes environmental hazards and ghostly hauntings, something that 5e doesn't do at all.
>no wandering monsters because anything not scripted is either mathematically too easy and pointless or too difficult and a tpk, etc
Wandering monsters are a bad solution to a simple problem, how to make dungeon exploration more engaging. If you need to skip to combat to keep dungeon exploration interesting, you've failed at making the dungeon interesting. Beyond this, adding in "random" encounters to your exploration is piss easy.

And giant tables of monsters for random encounters are for padding word count. A good DM doesn't need random monsters to make his adventures better, he should already have an idea of what fights he wants, when and where with the appropriate enemies, terrain, and weather.

And even then, the rules actually include a random encounter table for hexploration.
https://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=3114&Redirected=1

>>94710564
or you can fuck off and let people who play the system give their own fucking opinions.

>>94710596
Resting is required because the encounter math assumes that players are at best full health. So either the dm wants the players to die or run, or they’re letting their party rest for an average of an hour between every fight

>traps + environmental hazards

5e has all that same shit but the encounter math doesn’t assume you’ll be at full HP so you can actually include monsters in the traps and hazards and not just have a separate scenario for it.

>the Pf2e player doesn’t like random / wandering monsters, and doesn’t understand their role, who knew? Perhaps the part about resting being free and required ?

Randomness and chaos adds to the experience, curated fights are boring. Note in that rule for random encounters that it gives no guidance on what is happening in the world. It’s all curated carefully

>>94707121
There's a lot of incredibly dumb shit. For instance, Robot races exist; they can get sick. Or drown.

The base game plays properly. Just stay away from 2e Kingmaker's Domain rules. They suck.

>>94710760
>Randomness and chaos adds to the experience
Not really. Most of the time its just tedious busy work designed to interrupt the players current actions, a punishment for doing what they are supposed to do. Wandering patrols shouldn't be random, they should be already built into the encounters you expect and track. Wandering monsters when traveling should also be prebuilt, and should less be combat than things which add flavor and context to a region. A random group of goblins on the road is silly, but ones picking over an upturned cart clearly attacked by something big and not the goblins is interesting. The first is how the encounter tables work, while the second is preplanned and provides actually interesting information.

>5e has all that same shit
5e doesn't have haunts.
>can actually include monsters in the traps and hazards
They have the same CR system as monsters and are designed to be used alongside each other. In fact, the encounter budget the game gives you assumes that at least some of the monsters will be traps and/or hazards. Have you actually ever read the rules for this shit?

It is perfectly functional to throw multiple fights after each other if you want, the GM Core accounts for this. You can throw multiple low budget fights together, a moderate and a few low, but never a severe. And you can throw in various subsystems like a chase sequence to liven things up without needing constant fights.

>>94709272
>it leads to a lot more experimentation then just "I roll to attack" and in my experience you can do a lot more memorable combat encounters.
All cool abilities and basically every spell costs 2 actions to do.
Which means you can and will usually only ever do 1 thing and 1 thing a turn.
It's interesting on paper, but in practice you never really get those three actions...
Unless you're just ungabunga roll to hit x3.

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>>94709524
>raise dead actually has a time limit like it did before 5th Edition Diapers and Dogshit
Mr never actually played and can't use Google because he's too big of a retard shows himself. But what else can be expected from a PF2e fanboy.

>>94710779
>Robot races exist; they can get sick. Or drown.
Androids are basically biological creatures, and as such can drown or get sick.
Automatons neither eat nor sleep and cannot drown or get sick.
Poppets, living toys and puppets, are weird and occupy a middle ground. Living but not biological, able to get sick, drown, and require food, but resistant to the ailments of the living.

Now if you had complained about the skeleton ancestry, you'd have a point, but even then the DM is advised to alter this if they want but are cautioned that it would give the skeleton player a strong advantage early on. The game gives you a balanced base line, and then gives you the tools to unabalance it if you want. The same is true of races with flight.

>>94710941
> Most of the time its just tedious busy work designed to interrupt the players current actions

Lol

>But haunts

Nothing special. Just another trap/hazard.

>CR system traps

That’s the issue bud, they’re all carefully designed to be included and balanced around. Traps aren’t another feature to be feared because they’re carefully curated to be fair and balanced like monsters or any other feature in the game.

Games too safe and careful

>>94707121
pathfinder is more "hunt for +1 bonusses until you win" while d&d is more "which of these 3 options do you think you're smart enough to play smoothbrain" like don't get me wrong, both absolutely suck. They just suck in different and interesting ways.

>>94707121
It's very much based on 3rd/3.5 Edition, so there's a lot more focus on deckbuilding your character and stacking bonuses. It has a lot more options, but you have to devote character choices to actually making them work. Otherwise, it's not really all that different. There's a lot more books out with optional rules regarding exploration or other subsystems, but they don't add much, and some of them kind of suck.

>>94711067
>Games too safe and careful
Your kind of a retard. The traps are balanced so that the DM can easily pick what he wants without unexpected tpks. If he wants to run something dangerous but survivable, its actually possible without needing to guess at it unlike 5e. If he wanted to run a possible tpk, with a slim chance of survival on good rolls, its entirely possible to do that.

He doesn't need to worry about the bullshit of 5es completely jank CR system. He can make it as safe or dangerous as he needs without worry of something going catastrophically wrong because the devs were retards. Your confusing balance with being easy. Balance allows DMs to not have to be game designers to figure out whats actually dangerous to throw at their players and can rely on the system to do it for them. This way they can throw easy or dangerous encounters, including traps and hazard and other fun things at their players without worry of accidental tpks or the party simply steamrolling the encounter.

In fact, throwing a "guaranteed tpk if fought" encounter is possible and using the chase sequence rules to facilitate escape is a good use of the CR system and existing rules for a fun encounter.

>>94711152
Yeah, games designed to make sure that players are never in any real danger and that they’ll never be crushing their foes because weaker monsters are simply boring for the dm to run.

It’s safe and easy for everyone at the table

>>94711210
Now youre just a shitty troll.

>>94709690
>Aside from having a bunch of pretty meaningless player options (feats and spell mostly) it's just better.
As someone who has been playing since release because it's my group's preferred game, this is truly the worst thing about it. I cut my teeth on 3.5 so it's not like I'm a stranger to stupidly useless or no brainer character options, but for me the worst sin is finding so many of them just dull. At least with a stupid 3.5 option I can generally see they were trying to do something neat but botched the execution, but with PF2 there are so many feats that feel like
>Feat: Shoeman
>Requirements: Expert in Acrobatics
>Effect: You can tie your shoes twice as fast.

>>94711274
Dunno dude, all the balance in the world makes it seem like you know the success of the adventure before it happens because it’s all carefully curated

>>94711371
I know this is going to blow your mind, but adventures are meant to be beaten. They are meant to provide a challenge with an often illusory possibility of death. All of them are like this. Its the nature of being a game. The success of the adventure isnt guaranteed but the chance of death isnt meant to be a strong possibility.

Every game your DM has hosted, assuming youre not a nogames shitposter, has been with the assumption you'd beat the adventure and not die. All of the encounters were designed so that you may die but the chance was unlikely. Whether the DM has had to fight the CR system or not is entirely another question, but you weren't meant to die and were meant to succeed at the adventure.

>>94711513
This sounds like a justification for railroading and storyshitting

>>94711533
And now youre absolutely a troll. Or a shiteating OSR fan, but I repeat myself.

>>94711513
>the chance of death isnt meant to be a strong possibility
If the player characters don't have any real risk then the DM is not playing the game correctly. If every encounter is a pre-determined victory for the party, what's the point of even playing the game? You might as well just drop the Game aspect and just Roleplay with the players instead.

>>94711540
You’re the one suggesting that your tactical rpg with strong combat and well designed monsters/traps is designed such that the players ought not fail

>>94711552
>If every encounter is a pre-determined victory
>>94711583
>players ought not fail
Youll notice I didn't say this, you've reached for something not said and gotten into a tizzy about characters not being killed in every fight and how its now predetermined victory or not being able to fail. There's more to fights than simply death. Loss of resources is an important aspect of fights, failing at timed events that cause different outcomes for events, and a bunch of other things that don't involve death.

You idiots are literally too stupid to understand playing an RPG beyond thinking every fight must have a strong possibility of death for the characters or else its pointless. This isnt a shitty JRPG from 30 years ago with random encounters to pad its play time. This isnt a COD match where death is inevitable. This is a ttrpg, a roleplaying game where your character is traveling around solving problems and getting into fights, trying to tell a story through roleplaying and turn based combat. Random death is shit and deeply unfun.

>>94711609
> but adventures are meant to be beaten. They are meant to provide a challenge with an often illusory possibility of death

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>>94707121
>Genuinely, no joke, no bait, how well does pic related work as a replacement for 5e and 5.5e when it comes to a traditional fantasy game? How well does it handle dungeon crawling and exploration? How robust is it mechanically compared to 5e?

Genuinely, no joke, no bait, I was finally convinced to switch over after D&D shit the bed with the newest edition. We went to Pathfinder 2e. I can only like PF2e when playing it over some kind of virtual tabletop that automates a lot of the complicated and convoluted set of rules. In that regard, PF2e is absolutely fantastic with all the 3rd party support it gets for absolutely free. But I would never play Pathfinder at an actual tabletop with dice and miniatures, but no tablets or laptops to assist with keeping track of the rules, combat, and ways to legally build a character. It's just way too complicated for its own good, but a lot of people love the crunch so take that for what it's worth.

>>94711621
Adventures are meant to be beaten, yes. But fights within often have illusory possibility of death because death would be a shitty way to end that encounter. Excuse me for assuming that you were smart enough to extrapolate talking about adventures and the encounters contained within without needing to explicitly delineate between them. Ill remember to talk down to your level from now on.

>>94707121
Terrible, it has all of 5e's problems and then some.
>Alignment is a mechanic again, meaning that you're either using it or fucking around with cumbersome variant rules
>Deities have spell lists, meaning you can't homebrew your own pantheons without extra work and fuck that shit
>Feat bloat, so much feat bloat, so many useless and trap options
>Tons of weapons in theory, about 5 in practice.
>Spellcasters are too far the other way from 5e, being rendered impotent in almost all cases
>TOo many rules, it's like eating a bowl full of glass in one bite, it's crunchy, hurts, and you never want to do it again.

5e is bad, don't get me wrong, but I can fix 5e. I cannot unfuck PF2e. Then again, they're both D&Dfinder (yes this includes B/X and AD&D) so they're shit by default.

I just made my own system to my tastes, because fuck this garbage.

>>94707121
Where the hell can I find the Adventure Paths? I'll been trying Da Archive with no luck so far

>>94711655
Why is death unacceptable in a tactical RPG based around combat and fighting monsters?

Baby gamer or storybrained?

>>94711711
Why must every encounter require the possibility of death? Are too stupid to think of other failure modes that are more interesting?
>storybrained?
Are you another shiteating OSRfag who doesn't understand that sitting around a table telling a story through roleplaying and turn-based combat is literally what the whole endeavor is about and has been for decades. This isnt some shit videogame where your killing things all the time, and thats all that your doing.

>>94711756
>doesn’t answer the question.

>>94711678

DA - curated

>>94711773
Youre literally retarded.

>>94711711
>Why is death unacceptable in a tactical RPG based around combat and fighting monsters?

because game is oriented around players having named character so they have a big chance of them all completing a storyline where they defeat a huge threat and be called heroes.

I agree with you but each editions of dnd and their clones gives more and more survivability to player character. Good example is getting all your hit points after night's rest.

TL;DR - new mentality of not wanting their Mary Sues to die.

>>94711801
You’re fucking scared dude. That’s why you like pf2e. You’re scared of not being in control and not knowing the results of the future. The game is fun because we don’t know what happens. Stop curating and embrace chaos like a proper dice gamer

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>>94711003
>no response to sticks and snakes
Rot in hell godless one

>>94711878
>took 15m to project this hard

>>94711924
>p-p-projecting

Aren’t you the cuck who dislikes random encounters because they’re busywork? Fuck off idiot

>>94707121
Ran it for two years on Foundry VTT, first as a home campaign and then an AP (Fist of the Ruby Phoenix). Currently between campaigns and whatever/whenever the next one is, it won't be PF2e (it won't be 5e either).

If you're coming from 5e, I'd recommend the system for GMs who want easier* encounter balance, more frameworks for skill actions, and more customization of PCs without needing an EDH-style social contract to not show up with gamebreaking builds (which is not something my group actually struggles with).
There is, contrary to its proponents' claims, still a lot of jank in the game, and the designers are hyperfixated on "balance, mathematically proven" than "is this actually fun to play" or "does this fulfill expectations about how this trope/archetype should play."

I'll second >>94711627 and say Paizo is INCREDIBLY lucky to have a gaggle of hyperfixated CS autists making digital tools for the game, because it would be almost unplayable otherwise.
These tools are still janky, however, and I had to troubleshoot minor issues with them every couple sessions (mainly having to do with remaster compatibility, near the end).

The 3 action economy IS an improvement over other editions, but there's a huge issue in that you only get 3; charging 0 actions for something is often too good, so Paizo opted to charge 1 in a lot of cases, making it clunky and annoying to deal with. As an example, a potion with a usage cost of 1 action is actually going to be 3 actions to use, because it costs:
>0 actions to take a hand off a two-handed weapon
>1 to get the potion in your hand
>1 to use the potion
>1 to put the hand back on the weapon
(this works about the same for any build with both hands occupied)

>>94712134
Until 15th level, 90% of the game's skill feats either suck ass or are taxes to do basic shit. 20%-30% of the class feats and subclasses suck ass and will not be getting reworks. PC building feels highly constrained unless you use Free Archetype. They're stuck on a content churn business structure so AP design is unfinished and janky. Mounted rules are half-finished. Blasting is intentionally nonviable due to careful caster powerbudgeting, and there's no "I just want to blast" caster-themed option that can actually dedicate a reasonable amount of its budget to this concept.

You can tell the designers really did not want to keep using the spell slot system but had to anyways because they didn't want to alienate too many players. The system is almost entirely built around at-will and encounter powers when it comes to martials (and even a lot of caster features!) but is still stuck with the slot system, which results in a de facto "adventuring day" even if the forums tell you otherwise.

There are a lot of things you Just Have to Know about the game before playing that the game DOES NOT TELL YOU and you have to find out about from people on the forums who act like it isn't insane, e.g. needing someone to be built for post-encounter healing, the adventuring day, math-fixer items and math-fixer-item-fixer items, that encounter building is correct only for the mid-levels and PCs are weaker than expected at low levels and stronger than expected at high levels, etc.

>>94712291
Their selling point as "D&D, but balanced and with build depth" is constantly being defeated by their release schedule and their status as le struggling indie corpo resulting in a new wave of options every few months, with 30-60% of it sucking ass (Inquisitorbros...) and 5% of it redefining the "meta".

The loot system is more balanced/fleshed-out than in 5e but magic marts are generally allowed culturally and hard to avoid RAW due to settlement rules, and there's a huge difference between a fighter with basic kit/looted items only and a fighter with:
>Tactician's Helm for boosted action econ after making AoOs
>Boots of Bounding for a speed boost
>Wand of Tailwind 2 + Trick Magic Item for a separate speed boost
>Advancing rune on armor for free movement after killing enemies
>Obsidian Goggles for free darkvision
>Greater Phantasmal Doorknob to rape enemies on crit
>Energy damage runes on weapon
>Retrieval Belt for boosted item economy
>probably some other shit I'm missing because I'm only half as autistic as is needed to keep up with everything

Anyways, if your group has fun with it that's all that matters.

>>94707121
Yeah

It's fine. I jumped into the hobby with 5e and bounced off that for PF2e because it's much easier to prep in that just matching enemy levels to the party mostly works. There are still uninteresting bruisers that any smart party will shut down no problem and there are still some enemies that punch above their weight (Hydras are fucking lethal to parties that don't know how to solve them and dragons remain king) but it's a lot easier to work with than 5e where CR is completely meaningless and every combat encounter that you want to be meaningful requires careful scrutiny of every statblock involved. More codified rules and every skill having explicit uses also helps keep things moving and manages player expectations.

So, it's better to GM and I think it's better to play too. More choices in how you build. There are taxes in that if you're playing a fighter as an archer then you're going to take the feats related to shooting ranged weapons instead of other shit and your class probably has one or more levels where you don't want any of the feats and you dip back to lower level ones or an archetype, general feats suck and every character under the sun is going to pick up improved initiative and fleet, but it's still better than 5e giving most classes a new choice to make every 4 levels or so. And the system of gaining little +1s and 2s does genuinely encourage teamwork instead of playing selfishly. Fights get a lot easier when there's a bless/courageous anthem up and the enemy is kept off guard and/or clumsy, frightened, sickened.

I also exclusively play casters and never feel useless or locked into being the martial buffbot but I'll concede that there's a system knowledge issue there, it takes some experience to recognise when a spell is good and when it's garbage and there's a lot of garbage that seems cool out there.

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>>94712013
>took another 15m to bump the thread while crying to the entire thread
Sorry the rulebook didn't have something for you to reference when a new and novel idea popped up. It's hard to homebrew how much of a faggot you are

>>94713954
I feel like most of the classes have a small range which you can play and if you deviate too much from what the devs want it’ll break your character

>>94714121
I've not noticed that to be the case myself, the tight system maths can be restrictive but also mean it's really really hard to brick a character as long as you're boosting the raw attributes and skills you need them to be good at as regardless of your feat choices, attack/defence proficiencies will tick up at the same rate.

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>>94707121
I've found it fine enough. My group has done so much in 5e that just the novelty of pf2e has been quite fun.

I like
- more rigorous math makes systematic encounter building a bit better than 5e (still will need to do a LOT of adjusting to your specific group)
- Equipment/magic items is an essential part of the game. If you aren't buying shit then you will fall off hard. And there's SO variety of fun loot to throw at your players.
- 3 action turns feel better than 5e but only slightly, often the extra actions just get spent on tedium or get so heavily penalized that they're not useful. It will often feel like you get an attack and a move per turn.

I don't like
- Junky bloated feat lists. I swear you level up and get excited for a new feat only to find that 98% are shitty and too niche to be valuable or fun. Shit like "+2 to acrobatics checks to squeeze through tight spaces". Tiny bonuses to things that rarely or will never happen in a campaign.
- bit too crunchy for my preferences. I'm not the kind of player to spend hours and hours finding just the right feats/class/equipment combinations to create a giga-powerful glass cannon whatever. But my people in my group who do like that are obsessed.

As far as exploration goes I don't think it does a very good job compared to 5e. There are plenty of "rules" they throw at you about it but it isn't meaningfully integrated into the game system. They're about as useful as any 5e rules for exploration. I feel like it's the same case for dungeon crawling but I've not played or run enough dungeon heavy sessions to get a feel for it.

All in all it's fine as a replacement to 5e. It solves some problems but creates others, it will serve generalist fantasy well enough.

>>94714484
>Junky bloated feat lists. I swear you level up and get excited for a new feat only to find that 98% are shitty and too niche to be valuable or fun. Shit like "+2 to acrobatics checks to squeeze through tight spaces". Tiny bonuses to things that rarely or will never happen in a campaign.
Yeah, I think this is the common criticism I agree with the most. Skill feats and general feats are bad and amount to either fluff to pad a character concept or a tax to make a concept work.

>>94714509
Yeah I found it pretty frustrating. Like as a designer why would you sit down and come up with so many boring/bad feats? What's the point? It's crazy to me.

>>94707121
Why not go to pathfinder 1e or 3.x? The translation is easier since 5e was lifted directly from e6 style 3.pf play mixed with elements of 4e.
3.pf generally has much more depth and a larger library to draw from than any other d20 product on the market.

>>94714557
Partly because on the GM side of things,those as bad as 5e. Encounter prep is hard because there are way more variables to consider.

Partly because it's fun to have things to look forward to. Some of my players were excited to play animist, I have someone that really wants to play a necromancer when it's launched. You don't get that from systems that have stagnated.

>>94714577
3 hasn't stagnated so much as completed since there's not really anything else you could add. If you can think of it, it already exists in either mainline or 3rd party in a book or pdf that printed 20 years ago.

>>94707121
D&D5/5.5 is garbage, but PF2 is worse in every way. It is essentially an amalgamation of 3.5, 4e, and 5e, with the worst aspects of all and the benefits of none. This has been discussed extensively and I am tired of retreading it.

>>94707130
Fpbp.

>>94709272
This. PF2 is "Muh Balance: The Game", and it loses the toolboxing nature of 3.X as a result, making absolutely nothing about the game feel verisimilitudious or compelling or interesting.

>>94711152
>Your kind of a retard.
The irony.
>muh balance muh balance muh balance muh balance muh balance muh balance
Everything about you is autistic, safe, careful, diapered, lame, and gay.

>>94711513
>Every game your DM has hosted has been with the assumption you'd beat the adventure and not die.
I knew you were a retarded fucking faggot, but I didn't know you'd declare yourself to be a nogames D&Drone this openly, too.

>>94711609
>tell a story
To no-one's surprise, the retarded faggot inevitably reveals himself as an autismcore storyshitter wanting to push his failed fanfic novels onto an audience being held hostage by social protocol.

>>94711655
>uuuh I never said that encounters are a predetermined victory and that players oight not to fail!!!
>ok I said that but that's a good thing, ACKSHUALLY!
Why are Marxists always like this?

>>94709241
Aside from being balanced better, it's got all the problems of D&D AND more tedious math to make gameplay even MORE of a slog.

>>94710760
>Resting is required because the encounter math assumes that players are at best full health
math bases it's tiers that party is at full resources, you can string 6 moderates one after another and the last few will likely be scratching extreme because they're fucking supposed to. It literally just fucking tells you that t/m/s/e are t/m/s/e when at full and difficulty goes up as PARTY resources dwindle, spellslots included. It's the brainrot reddit community playing it like a board game that memed itself that ALL ENCOUNTERS have to be done at full health

>>94707121
I'm just giving up on ruleset and keeping the settings. I think it's possible >>94678356

>>94716309
Idiot

>>94716259
Dudes be saying that anything that doesn’t challenge the group is a waste of time, then be like, damn why do they need to keep healing to full to use their one resource up that the game is designed around when fighting stronger and “challenging” encounters?

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>>94709241
his skin makes for a good robe of eyes

>>94716317
>continues to pay money for someone else's rules
ok rulescuck

>>94716360
>poor and uneducated in the art of rules crafting

>>94716555
>rules crafting
This is tongue-in-cheek, right?

>>94710760
>Resting is required because the encounter math assumes that players are at best full health.
Any character with skill feats in medicine will able to fully heal a party in like 10-20 minutes, and skill feats are super cheap because the ones you get can't be used on any other kind of feat

>>94720157
Healing takes 10 minutes per character, unless multiple party members are burning skills on the same medicine itll probably take closer to an hour

>>94707121
I played only couple of games but felt quite bored with the slog of fights dm cooked up. Champion I made felt like had not much to do aside from whacking and ocassionally reacting. I had been under wrong impression its gonna be like a paladin but it was nothing like that.

>>94714530
I think a big part of it comes from Archives of Nethys just lumping in Adventure Path content into the main game, and the vast majority of PC options from those are just page filler. Mind you, the core books are also loaded with stupid options, but Paizo padding pages with shit character options has been a trend since the Dragon Magazine days.

>>94710564
why do retards reply with this to anything that's positive towards something other than d&d or warhammer?
PF is decently mainstream compared to most systems.

>>94722019
>why do retards reply with this to anything that's positive

This is 4chan.

>>94715017
3.X is not even half as much of a toolbox as you pretend it is and it has no verisimilitude if you bother to look.

>>94711657
2e doesn't have alignment anymore

>>94715017
This. PF2E is boring as fuck in the name of """"balance""""
Fuck that shit, a game where +2 on a d20 being a strong bonus has to be made by turbonerds who hate fun.

>>94724485
>3.5
>only system with any semblance of verisimilitude ever published
>has no verisimilitude
lol

>>94720525
If you are the parties dedicated healer then you can take a single feat (Ward Medic) that allows you to heal 2 - 8 members at once so you can heal the full party in maybe 20 mins tops with the medicine skill.

>>94707121
Terribly. It's more comparable to 4e.

>>94710941
>a punishment for doing what they are supposed to do.
In a well-designed system the players aren't supposed to be having a vacation while within a dungeon.

>>94711513
>an often illusory possibility of death.
And that's exactly why no-one should play PF2e.

>>94711808
In other words, you're not actually playing a game, you just pretend to.

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>>94730262

>>94730361
And that's a Skill Feat that doesn't eat into your class feats. So there's no reason not to take that feat really.

>>94707121
Played a few sessions as a player, so I can't tell anything about the GM side. It's supposedly easier to run than D&D 5e because the internal maths is more robust.

What I don't like:
>flood of unnecessary feats that either should be in baseline ability
You "need" a feet to shoot a barrel of gunpowder or drag a grappled enemy with you... come on.
>some ancestries (races) are divided into heritages (subraces) not in any way that'd make in-universe sense but to nerf the natural abilities
Catfolk is the most egregious example I've seen where half of heritages are just things that cats do on their own: Clawed Catfolk, Flexible Catfolk, Hunting Catfolk, Sharp-Eared Catfolk.
>lots of frontloaded bookkeeping
The online tools (Nethys archive, Pathbuilder 2e) help a lot, but on pen&paper, ugh.

What I do like:
>3 action economy
Superb, other games should try it as well. Not every round of combat uses it to all of its potential, but you're never forced to just stand in place and whack your weapon. This system made something as awful as True Strike actually useful, wow.
>Focus spells, Refocus action
Really neat mechanic, perfect for a session where you have several encounters separated by moments of respite.
>Archetypes (I play with the Free Archetype optional rule, your mileage may vary if you don't)
Really like this version of multiclassing. And it's not restricted just to that, it can be used for niche character themes like a translator, polearm acrobat, or a guy focused on swapping stances each turn for some colourful combos.
I really appreciate how lion's share of "feat trees" are classified as archetype, makes it much easier to "grok" them or look them up later.
>Critical weapon specialisation
Very similar to D&D 5e, so I'm not putting it as something PF does better... but it's still very neat and a plus of the system.

I like it more than D&D 5e, but I had help creating the character, without it, I would probably bounce off of it.

>>94724485
>3.X is not even half as much of a toolbox as you pretend it is
It's not GURPS or anything, but literally everything in 3.X is presented as a mere tool, and pretending otherwise is retarded.
>it has no verisimilitude if you bother to look.
I can only assume that you quite literally don't understand the meaning of the word, because 3.X is shock-full of options where the rules presented are entirely based in the concept or themes of whatever is being discussed, with little or no regard for "muh balance". Like it or don't, but claiming "it has no verisimilitude" is fucking idiotic.

>>94746764
No, they're not, and that's not what verisimilitude means.

>>94707121
It's designed to tard-wrangle power gamers and help Paizo distance itself from the D&D IP. It does both of those things well enough. However, in doing so, it reveals just how boring D&D designed around balanced combat is. Honestly, I'd rather play D&D 3e (for nostalgia and premade material) or GURPS Dungeon Fantasy (for actually fun tactical combat). As can be guessed, I'm not much a fan of D&D 5e myself. Still I definitely prefer it over PF 2e.

If anyone could answer this question, I'd be very happy: how many of the original Paizo crew from the Dungeon and Dragons Magazine days still do work for them?

>>94707121
Pathfinder 2e is much closer to D&D 4e, whereas D&D 5e is literally just the basic edition of D&D 3.X

Before 3.X, D&D had a Basic and an Advanced line of rules, so that players could focus on crunch or roleplay. WOTC dropped that and just made Advanced D&D 3e, and dropped "Advanced" from the name. 5e is, more or less, the Basic version of the game they never made.

One of the main problems of 3.X is that the dungeon crawl procedures are not well spelled out, so players gravitated towards what part of the game was spelled out: Combat and Character Builds. 5e Basically has the same problem. Really, just slapping a formal Dungeon Crawl Procedure on top of 5e will do you more good than switching systems. Unless you want more rules complexity. If you're after that, switch to any 3.X variant you like (Including PF1e)

>>94746764
>No, they're not
Yes it is.
>that's not what verisimilitude means
Yes it is.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/verisimilitude
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verisimilitude
Pearls before swine, I guess, because I assume you're functionally illiterate.