So my DM has this homebrew system.One of us even posted a demo/draft of it here: https://archive.4plebs.org/tg/thread/92974963And one of the most fun parts is the magic user.The magic is deeply customizable and has very few limits.Basically at the start of the game you create 3 spells, and they can be ANYTHING, literally anything.The DM often asks for the spells to share a theme, but they can literally be anything.Level 1 magic user calling a meteor, teleporting, knowing the future, isntantly killing people. The only limitation is creativity, that the spell can't ladt forever and you can only cast once per level, so a level 3 magic user can only cast 3 times before using magic gets risky.
>>94729646So last year I made a magic user with the most OP spells I could think of to try to break the game and see how far the magic could take me. The theme was summoning spirtis to do my job. The spells were:-Know the answer to any question, by summoning a spirit who would wisper it in my ear.(It was super useful and we knew a lot about the bad guys, but since I had to ask questions, sometimes I just had no way to know stuff and what to ask, like when we got backstabed by a helpful npc).-Instantly kill someone by summoning a Grim Reaper. (It wasn't very useful, since we fought a faction of people not a Big Bad Guy, killing people wasn't that useful since they could just get someone else, and we mostly fought groups and everytime I used this power they would just use it t convince the population magic was evil and further their political goals).-Complete mind control, by making the spirit possess the person (It was useful, but I rarely used it since I used the info one more often, and since spells can't be permanent we couldn't use it to make any lasting changes and the fact we were figthing a faction made so that one bad guy on our side wasn't that great).My best friend had the:-Do not appear suspicious, rewind time and make a knife that can cut anything spells. So now we had some down time I can research a new custom spell, any ideias of what I could get to try to break things further?So far, none of them broke the game.
>>94729646>So my DM has this homebrew system.Stopped reading rigth there.
>>94729646>>94729649Huh, neat idea, sounds like fun. In the later Ultima video games there was a spell called Armageddon which killed every single living thing in the world. It was a useless spell and I think it was meant to teach the player that infinite power is destructive.
>>94729646ymmv >immunity to spells of all kind>mass memory alteration >time stop for everyone except xyz >various forms of omniscience >control nature/weather >remove thing from having ever existed >telepathy with no visual indication
>>94729646>DM>homebrewSo he isn't a DM.But looking at the fact that his system is based off of whim, he isn't a GM, either.
>>94730204Based retard contributing to the bump limit
>>94729805Yeah that seems to to be kind of the ideia my DM was trying to convey.My original two spells were a portal spell and the instant kill spell.And my DM argued that those were bad picks.He said that to kill... Anyone can kill, literally any one, even our merchant friend (who got really good rolls in combat skills) can kill, why waste magical energy and potencial to do soemthing so mundane? Magic is limitless, literally able to change the laws of relaity and physics for a while why waste a spell slot doing something a dagger in the back can do just as well?And the portal eh argued was jsut as a bad, sure it can be used for a quick escape, but as a gorup we rarely used such strategies. It could be used for infiltration, we could teleport straight to the bad guy's lair, but now what? not everyone is good at sneaking, we are surrounded by bad guys and that's two spells gone, one to get in and one to get out.What remains is using it for fast travel, but is a waste since we could just... Walk there, sure it's instantaneous but so what? So he convinced me on the portal but I still kept the isntant death one, and he was right, not only it's a waste of a spell slot that I could use to gather info but since we are dealing with an anti magic faction, they just use the deaths to promote their views. So it always backfired.
>>94729905Le me take a look...>>94729905>>immunity to spells of all kindNot that great since spells can't be permanent, permanent magic is possible, but very rare and diffuclt, you need a whole ritual that often involves some sort of sacrifice to make a spell permanent. And we are figthing a faction that is anti-magic so they don't use magic a lot.>>94729905>>mass memory alterationThis could be useful, since the biggest downside to the mind control spell is how people get angry when they realised they have been mind controled. And we are trying to gain the will of the people to go againts the invaders.But still, mass braindwashing people to be on our side seems to be exactly the kind of thing that would fit their fear mongering narrative of why magic is LE BAD. >>94729905>>time stop for everyone except xyzI actually kind of like this, it could be used both in combat and out of combat... Yeah this is good.
>>94730445>>94729905>>various forms of omniscienceI kind of already got that covered with my "ASK ANY QUESTIONS AND GET AN ANWSER" spell. Seems safer than any type of scrying sich as crystal balls or astral projection.>>94729905>>control nature/weatherThis seems useful, is like a big elemental package, it could be used in a fight and outside of it... Hummm...>>94729905>>remove thing from having ever existedTHIS LOOKS POWERFUL, but I'm not sure if it's that useful... Again it's like the killing spell only more extreme. In this campaing no one rules alone and no one is THAT important that should be delt with non existence.>>94729905>>telepathy with no visual indicationThis could be useful, but I'm not sure how... We always stick toegherder and it's a magic fearing society so no use on npcs.
>>94729649>So now we had some down time I can research a new custom spell, any ideias of what I could get to try to break things further?Invisibility is always nice.Some sort of demi plane you can hide.
Really, this is the best you could come up with?>time travelTime travel is the ultimate "I win" button. The opponent did something that you didn't like? Nope. Are you missing an item? No you're not. Fucked something up? No you didn't. That's not to say of other uses - killing people before they grow up to become powerful, do spy stuff, and so on.>portalsThe fact that you don't see the utility of portals is... worrying. First off, with portals, congratulations - you just broke the economy. The world runs on logistics and with portals you've just cornered the market on it. You can also use it to abuse physics - perpetual motion is just one of them, but you can also blast people with lava or the Sun or high-pressure water; or open portals into the vacuum of space or just make them take massive amounts of fall damage. >summoningFind out what the strongest stuff is and learn the Summon + Control Strongest Entity spell. Now you have the top dog in your corner and when one isn't enough, you just summon more. See Angel Summoner vs. BMX Bandit. Or Balor. Or dragons. Make sure it has a control clause. >creationIf you can create solid objects out of thin air, that's also hax as fuck. Just think Green Lantern. You always have the right tool for the job, without fail. If your GM is a permissive fuck, just allows yourself to summon "anything that you can imagine." Boom, you just won the game because now you're summoning nukes or whatever.
>>94730907>Time travel is the ultimate "I win" button. The opponent did something that you didn't like? Nope. Are you missing an item? No you're not. Fucked something up? No you didn't. That's not to say of other uses - killing people before they grow up to become powerful, do spy stuff, and so on.The issue is that, just as the info gathering spell, I fele this put us in a very defensive position, we spent most of the first part of the game just, stopping the bad guys from accomplishing their plans that we rarely actually got around doing our plans, if we do time travel every little incovinience we wouldn't get past day one, no?>>94730907>The fact that you don't see the utility of portals is... worrying. First off, with portals, congratulations - you just broke the economy. The world runs on logistics and with portals you've just cornered the market on it. You can also use it to abuse physics - perpetual motion is just one of them, but you can also blast people with lava or the Sun or high-pressure water; or open portals into the vacuum of space or just make them take massive amounts of fall damage.Again, magic can't be permanent, and it's a low magic and magic fearing/hating society. So no portal network.>>94730907>Find out what the strongest stuff is and learn the Summon + Control Strongest Entity spell. Now you have the top dog in your corner and when one isn't enough, you just summon more. See Angel Summoner vs. BMX Bandit. Or Balor. Or dragons. Make sure it has a control clause.It's a low magic setting, so no angels, there are spirits but they are veyr mysterious and dangerous... But this may be useful and would fit my theme.
>>94730947>>94730907>If you can create solid objects out of thin air, that's also hax as fuck. Just think Green Lantern. You always have the right tool for the job, without fail. If your GM is a permissive fuck, just allows yourself to summon "anything that you can imagine." Boom, you just won the game because now you're summoning nukes or whatever.But how sueful would be to summon a nuke? Or whatever? We can just buy stuff no? Isn't that easier? Is wasting magicla potencial on stuff really that smart?
>>94729649Maybe not OP and game breaking but shapeshifting is always very useful.You can change into animals, mosnter and other people (as a disguise). So it's very versatile.Maybe make it as "COntrol organic matter or bodies" for it to be more powerful, that way you can control other people's body too.
>>94730460You seem weirdly limited in your imagination. Being able to see and hear instead of having to form your question and have the gm dick about with it is very different. You're doing a lot of political shenanigans from the sounds of it. Being able to split up and stay in communication instantaneously is very powerful. >I kind of already got that covered with my "ASK ANY QUESTIONS AND GET AN ANWSER" spell. Seems safer than any type of scrying sich as crystal balls or astral projection.
>>94731255>Being able to see and hear instead of having to form your question and have the gm dick about with it is very different.I feail to see how, for it to work I need to know where and when they are going to be having an important covnersation, I need to understand the context and the information they don't elaborate and I run the risk of being detected.They are not a magical faction, but they do have SOME magical protections.
>>94731659>I need to know where and when they are going to be having an important covnersationCan't you design the spell so you can see the past too? And make so that you target an event like "Important meeting" instead of a place? You are not thinking creatively enough.
>>94731795I guess so... Hummm...
>>94729646>>94729649The primary limitation here seems like the number of uses you get of each spell.Like you mentioned, a single target instant-death spell isn't that great, since you only get to kill one guy, and if you're fighting mostly normal people there's easier ways to do that.A better combat spell would either be something like a tornado or firestorm to clear out an army of enemies, or for something a little more precise, summoning an angelic warrior. For an angelic warrior, even you don't have it insta-killing people, it being able to stick around for even an hour would be much more efficient. On top of seeming less blatantly evil.'Controlling wind' also might be a better application than just having a tornado spell, since then you could not only use that for making a tornado to kill enemies, but also potentially use it for travel and flight. That said, a combat spell is never truly going to break the game. A level 3 spellcaster could use an angel to clear out 3 groups of enemies, but if there's more than that you've merely saved yourself some trouble. The lack of permanency also means that any solution is ultimately a temporary one.Someone else brought up altering memories, but that's going to run into the same problem as mind control, where eventually it wears off and the people you mind-wiped get pissed."Give all nearby enemies a heart attack" might be a pretty good spell, since not only does it clear out opponents, but it also could reveal any spies working for the enemy. Not exactly good for your PR to make entire crowds of people drop dead though, especially if your GM also has it so that members of the populace who are antagonistic towards mages also get harmed by the spell.
>>94729646You're definitely underestimating/underutilising Time and Mind magic anonFor just 3 spells to do the most, I'd have to say:1) Time Stop for the world, minus you and your allies. There's simpsons episodes showing why this one fucks, and there's a reason Za Warudo was a finishing move. Anything you can do, in a time stop, you can do unstoppably. Anything that's stealable is yours. Anyone who can be killed by mundane means? Dead. Infinite travel, you basically teleport. Outnumbered and surrounded? Doesn't matter.2) Memory alteration. Better than mind control - people get mad when you control their minds, but when you were always their best friend, their boss... hell, they don't even need to believe the same. Rearrange their memories, their minds, and write people to be what you need.3) Full Mind Reading. Okay, the mind-writing is very OP, but you need to know the material you're working with. Plus when you're not shaping the people you're dealing with, it helps to know everything everyone around you is up to. Stops you getting taken by surprise, so you know when you'll need to stop time
>>94732120>A better combat spell would either be something like a tornado or firestorm to clear out an army of enemiesYeah, the DM told us that more general amgic is always better, so isntad of fireball spell, create and control fire ios better sicne I can use to create a fireball effect or soemthign else, like a signal or a wall or anything really, it gives me more freedom.>>94732120>summoning an angelic warrior. For an angelic warrior, even you don't have it insta-killing people, it being able to stick around for even an hour would be much more efficient. On top of seeming less blatantly evil.But there are no angels in the setting, and people know I'm a magic user, and magic users are hated by the chruch and the secular, it could be seen as blasphemy to have an angel on our side, since there is no way to prove it's a real angel.>>94732120>'Controlling wind' also might be a better application than just having a tornado spell, since then you could not only use that for making a tornado to kill enemies, but also potentially use it for travel and flight.yeah control fire, wind or somethign else could be very useful. >>94732120>Someone else brought up altering memories, but that's going to run into the same problem as mind control, where eventually it wears off and the people you mind-wiped get pissed.I'm not sure, the rules of magic state that no permanent effects are possible, they are but they need elaborate rituals with blood sacrifices (part of the reason magic is hated) to be made permanent. But the effects of spells persist, so I can't keep a fire tornado going forever, but the damage cause by it stays even after the effect, so a mind control spell can't last forever, but the effect of memory altering spell could (at least the way I see it) last forever, sure peeople may realise their memories were tempred with, but the effeccts wouldn't change.
>>94732120>"Give all nearby enemies a heart attack" might be a pretty good spell, since not only does it clear out opponents, but it also could reveal any spies working for the enemy. Not exactly good for your PR to make entire crowds of people drop dead though, especially if your GM also has it so that members of the populace who are antagonistic towards mages also get harmed by the spell.That is interesting, but yeah PR is a big deal in this campaing, we are dealing a secullar inquisition that hates magic and is tryong to fall in the people's good graces.But they are the vagard, thetip of the psear of a alrger imperialist nation that see our territory as ripe for anexation, so they gain the trust of the people with the inquisition and after that they just take over with the the help of locals. The magical hating empire and their dreams of colonization are the big bad guys. And we own these lands, we are the elders (it's just a title, we are not old) and this is our people, so we can't jsut nuke them. Nuking the land is nuking OUR real state and the people we NEED to protect from this foreign invasion. And people ALREADY hate magic as it is, so it's a very good political position to campaing.
>>94732158>Stops you getting taken by surprise, so you know when you'll need to stop timeYou would still need to know when to cast the spell to read the minds of those around you though, because you can't just get always-on mind reading.Same thing with the memory alteration. That runs into the same issues as the Mind Control spell OP already had, which lasts less than 999 years because the mind control wore off during the course of the game.The result is going to be the exact same. You make an enemy think they're a spy working for you, they can't accomplish anything more useful than if they were just mind controlled, and eventually the spell either wears off, or they simply get caught as a spy.And then the faction puts up posters everywhere about an evil mage that can steal your memories and replace them. Then people accuse every ally you have of having their memory altered so they'd merely think they like you, and some of them might actually be convinced that their memories aren't real. Time Stop is the best of these, since that'd typically be enough time to break into a place, complete a mission, and leave. It does all of the sorts of things OP wanted out of his portal and instant-kill spells, but better.
>>94732158>1) Time Stop for the world, minus you and your allies. There's simpsons episodes showing why this one fucks, and there's a reason Za Warudo was a finishing move. Anything you can do, in a time stop, you can do unstoppably. Anything that's stealable is yours. Anyone who can be killed by mundane means? Dead. Infinite travel, you basically teleport. Outnumbered and surrounded? Doesn't matter.Yeah time stop fucks for sure.>>94732158>2) Memory alteration. Better than mind control - people get mad when you control their minds, but when you were always their best friend, their boss... hell, they don't even need to believe the same. Rearrange their memories, their minds, and write people to be what you need.This is good, and maybe even great in another campaing, but doign this would be doing the kind of evil shit our foes use againts us. Too risky.>>94732158>3) Full Mind Reading. Okay, the mind-writing is very OP, but you need to know the material you're working with. Plus when you're not shaping the people you're dealing with, it helps to know everything everyone around you is up to. Stops you getting taken by surprise, so you know when you'll need to stop timeIs this really THAT useful? When and how do I know that I need to use it? Our Specialist already detects lies naturally so we are often in the know. Like what can we do with mind reading that would be that useful? Know that our foes want to kill us? We kind of already know that... We know their plans, we have spies, I really fail to use the utility of mind reading since I already know the answer to any question of loyalty or location... Sorry i just don't see it.Maybe provide some exemples?
>>94732245>ime Stop is the best of these, since that'd typically be enough time to break into a place, complete a mission, and leave. It does all of the sorts of things OP wanted out of his portal and instant-kill spells, but better.Indeed, I think time stop is the big winner here.
>>94731233>Maybe make it as "COntrol organic matter or bodies" for it to be more powerful, that way you can control other people's body too.I second this.https://whitewolf.fandom.com/wiki/VicissitudeThe vampire discipline of Vicissitude is basically that and this link provides many fun ideas of what to do with it. Since you have no limits maybe make it so that you don't even have to touch your foes.
>>94732218>But there are no angels in the setting,Fair enough. I mostly brought it up as a potential for a summon that would come across as less evil. Although I think the proposal of Time Stop is ahead of it anyway. If you need to clear out a building full of people, stopping time achieves similar results, but with more utility beyond it.As far as memory altering, you'd need to ask your GM about that. I could see an argument being made for if you wanted to just erase or destroy someone's memories, but if it's specifically altering memories, then I'd expect that any new artificial memories would be just as permanent as mind control. Which is to say, not.
>>94732295Some asshole is saying shit? Literally shut his mouth closed.
>>94732304Turn your foes into chairs. This could be fun.
>>94732295This brings the same issue of the memories, would the effects of the spell be permanent? The no permanent effects rule is kind of vague. A healing spell would mend and fix broken bones right? So an altering bones and flesh spell would leave them altered?
>>94732356I'm not sure... Maybe?Another rule the DM set on magic is that there is a second way to make your spells more powerful.Sure having general spell is the best strategy but if you set limitations to them, they become stronger. So for exemple if two water mages would duel, but one had a generic "Control water spell" and the other had "Control salt water" spell and they were figthing in the sea, the control salt water spell would overwrite the generic one sicne it's more limited and specific. (he would be toast if they were figthing in a lake tho).So an NPC witch we found had a polymorph and she was able to make them semi-permanent since as she cursed people she would give them a mundane task that woud break the spell, but since most people she cursed were entitled assholes they would endup stuck in that form forever... Even if the task was quite easy. It had major fairy tale vibes. She argued that casting a form that the person has a "Resonance" with helped the spell, so the prince she turned into a pig had pig vibes from the start, but I dunno if that was just fluff or if has an actual impact on the spell.
>>94732475So maybe if the person is willing to undergo "magic plastic surgery" the effects can last longer? And a magical deformity spell would allow the person to try to resist it?Or maybe it has to do with things having the tendency to return to their original forms? So a healing magic works since it returns a person to the their original state?Well, the lore of the game says that magic is based on chaos energy and doesn't work as an exact sience. But those are good questions to bring my DM. Thanks.
>>94732356It does feel like it's very dependent on the GM in terms of what would qualify.'Spell to create a knife that cuts anything' is valid, because the knife will eventually disappear, but anything it cuts stays cut.'Spell to create a knife that turns anything the blade touches into a frog' is more questionable, because it's the same sort of context, but it implies a secondary portion of more persistent ongoing magic.I would assume that the line is that anything that would require ongoing magic to sustain it might be where the line gets drawn. If you use magic to contort someone's bones and flesh into a living chair, they probably won't stay as a living chair forever. They might not return to their normal shape, but the magic allowing them to live in an unnatural shape would wear off. That still does make flesh control very useful, since you could use it as a form of shape-shifting, healing, and as a last-resort combat spell. An earth-control spell might be useful for similar reasons, where you could use it to turn a mountain into a castle that will remain as a castle. Or many other sorts of terrain and fortifications. >>94732475>>94732506Interesting, although that might struggle to make anything overpowered, since the sorts of conditions that actually work are contingent on what the GM finds thematic.I doubt it'd be possible to turn someone into a body horror that only ends via 'true love's kiss'. It might work to have long-term shapeshifting magic that is basically permanent unless struck by a silver weapon, for example, since that'd be a thematic downside.There's probably good ways to utilize that. You could theoretically get a spell that blesses a town with luck, prosperity, and good harvests until an invader sets foot there. Which means that the people are going to be living great, until the invaders arrive and then the spell falls apart, and the people blame them for the bad luck instead.
>>94732601Yeah my DM is a "Whatever is fun first" kind of guy. It doesn't matter if it's busted as long as it's fun. Magic as a tool to have fun and make fun situations seems to be more important than making a coherent magic system."It's a RPG not a novel" he often says. But yeah time stop is clearly very interesting, and what I think I'm going to go with.
>>94730947>>94730960>time travelYou wouldn't NEED to get past day one. You win every conflict before it starts by adventuring in the past. If you're faced with a temple door you cast the time travel spell and say "I reached out to the builders and secured a copy of a key that I hid in the 3rd brick from the top and left." and then it's there. If you're encountering a villain, you cast the time spell and say "I tracked down his mother and kicked her in the cunt when she was pregnant." So on and so forth.>portalsYeah magic isn't permanent and people are superstitious, but people like money. Unless you're running some hard mudcore setting, you'll always have people who would be willing to sell their morals for money, especially if it gives them a MASSIVE advantage. >summonsSummons are always broken because action economy and if the summoning spell implies control (make sure to add that into the spell description) you can be reasonably safe in doing so.>create itemsNigger, you didn't just ask "how is a nuke useful." Or "how is having a calculator in a medieval setting useful." Or "how is having antibiotics useful." If the spell is "conjure any item you can imagine" then the limit is LITERALLY your imagination.You just have a very shitty one. Consider that maybe RPGs aren't for you.
>>94733500Also that sounds awful from both you and the DM. It's awful from the DMs perspective because clearly they have 0 idea what they're doing and not treating the world with the gravitas it deserves. From you, it's an asshole thing to do because you're asking for broken stuff in a "fun" setting.
>>94729649>So last year I made a magic user with the most OP spells I could think of to try to break the gameAnd you've lost me, go fuck yourself I guess? Or don't, I don't give a fuck.
>>94737402>You wouldn't NEED to get past day one. You win every conflict before it starts by adventuring in the past. If you're faced with a temple door you cast the time travel spell and say "I reached out to the builders and secured a copy of a key that I hid in the 3rd brick from the top and left." and then it's there. If you're encountering a villain, you cast the time spell and say "I tracked down his mother and kicked her in the cunt when she was pregnant." So on and so forth.
>>94737402>"how is a nuke useful."HOW IS NUKE USEFUL? It's too distroctive, not mention the fallout.besides how would my character summon all that stuff if they aren't even possibilities in this setting? Makes no sense.
>>94737420I just want to push the possibilities to the limit that's all, not break the game in a unfun way.
>>94738639???
>>94738718Yeah it was a good movie. Bit sad, but that's the point. >>94738727What does the setting not have physics? Okay fine, don't summon a nuke, summon a nuke equivalent. Summon something that can delete a city. And again the fact that you're asking "Oh how would something that can completely cripple the economic power of the Bad Guy Empire is useful" tells me that you just lack imagination. Go ask ChatGPT for help.
>>94740639>Summon something that can delete a citywhy would I want to delete a city? War crimes are bad pr and we are trong to prevent an invasion, anything we destroy is our own stuff and WILL be used againts us.Besides if you can't think of a good use for magic that is not destructive I think you may be retard, as I said above, anyone can kill. Magic should use for better stuff.
>>94740961Bro are you genuinely retarded, ESL, or are you just pretending to be retarded to troll? Listen to yourself:>We are being invaded by a foreign empire.>I see no benefit to nuking the foreign empire.
>>94729646>investiture of godliness>you become as God, capital G>omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent>it lasts forever minus one secondGg, no re
>>94745392Maybe it's your american brain, but he is clearly light, such a display of power would only make other nations fear you and try to fuck with you.
>>94751591Yeah. And you have nukes. People can kvetch about America and Pissrael all they want, so long as we're top dog they can't do dick other than gnash their teeth and do whatever America tells them. >he is clearly lightGiving Internet to you shitskins was a mistake.
>>94729646Time travel and time stop are OP, depending on limitations you can either solve each encounter or the whole campaign.A spell that creates a protection, like making a barrier is also useful, you could put it on allies and they are immune from bullets, or put it on your car and ram inside a building, this kind of stuff.The ability to create gold, or money, yeah materialistic, but really good in general, if those things are impermanent, try great charisma, being convincing and loved is useful given your situation where you need to save your tradition, not only kill people.Telekinesis, it's just really good, many many application. Even if it's just like Magneto where you manipulate 1 material.Try healing, it's really simple to kill people (guns exist since before we learned how to write), but healing people well is costly and time consuming, plus it helps your reputation (in particular if you can heal multiple people at the same time).The one where you obtain answers is good, but you need to be wise to begin with to know what to ask.Finally I would suggest illusions, in general can make appear anything, if that can't be, being able to take up any disguise/face so to infiltrate. Personally I recommend healing for your situation.
