Should magic have consequences?
>>94752447Yes. Sexy consequences.
>>94752447Yes. If I cast a fireball, a consequence should follow (a fireball is produced and splashes against an object). The same is true of every other spell.
>>94752447MISTRESS :_;
>>94752447It should have costs at the very least. You never want magic to be a "Win" button that works every time. Or any kind of "Win" button.
>>94752447>tips fedoraNo, it doesn't exist therefore it has no consequences, the same as prayer has no consequencesbut I get what you're asking, OP. You mean "Should there be long-term negatives associated with learning and practising reality-warping schools of power-wielding?" and the answer is "usually, but some people whine like little bitches when the consequences come knocking"
Shouldn't have happened to my wife.
>>94752514This anon has the truth of it.
>>94752447>>94752508>>94752520>>94752548Okay seriously What happened to her
Depends entirely on the game you want to run and various details of the setting.
>>94752609Sellen was a master sorceress who researched forbidden magics of the stars, and was expelled from the magic school for her heinous experiments. One of these was the creation of what the game calls a 'School of Graven Mages', which is a fusion of people into a giant stone sphere to be used as a tool of sorcerery and, in theory, serve as the seed of a new star. Sellen was banished for doing this to her colleagues, got strong, and went back with a plan to overthrow the sorcerer-queen Rennala and lead the magic school into a new age of discovery into magics she considered the old order too cowardly to delve into on her own. It did not go well. Essentially, she and her supporters were fused together into School of Graven Mages themselves by the queen. When you find her she can whisper to you, but is powerless to act. A horrible fate, but one that she herself invented and inflicted on others.
>>94752609There are two assumptions to make:Either she did it to herself, or someone did it to her. Either option is as believable as the other. There are arguments to be made for both. There are arguments that go against.We can’t even be sure if Azur and Lusat are fine. They’ve either become more powerful than you we possibly imagine, in typical transcendent Buddhist fashion, or they’re... just a pair of rocks…I feel like she wouldn’t do this to herself since she was planning on reshaping up the academy. Perhaps Ranni did it—or it was another group of graven mages.Also, for some reason the Karolos heads are spared from all graven masses. Why is this? Because the Karolos didn’t forego the Primeval Current, while the Olivinus appear to have imprisoned their founder, and the Lazuli are Carian loyalists.It’s also possible that Sellen is a Carian. Possibly. Could be why she dislikes them. She was the problematic relative in the family.
>>94752695>It did not go well. Essentially, she and her supporters were fused together into School of Graven Mages themselves by the queen.It’s left ambiguous. Rennala is no threat, so if it was anyone it was either Ranni or another group of graven mages. It’s also possible that Sellen did it to herself, but I find this hard to believe, for reasons.
>>94752447Of course magic should have consequences. Magic is POWER, and power *always* has consequences. There is no such thing as free, easy, limitless power without risk of danger or side effects. Either magic costs something to use, or its use has deleterious side effects on the world, or it needs to be done with extreme care lest the power wrest itself from the casters control and run amok. This both serves to balance the use of magic (most people either cannot, or will not, deal with the costs or risks involved) and make it the grander and terrible art that it should be. If your magic costs you nothing and is totally free of any negative repercussions and doesn't even carry the possibility of accident in it, what you have made is unfathomably boring.
>>94752717Renalla is no threat to YOU. You've already beaten her once. But she is still an extremely powerful wizard as far as anyone else is concerned.
>>94752447Being physically weak is a usual immediate consequence of picking a caster. What a question.
>>94752727>But she is still an extremely powerful wizard as far as anyone else is concerned.Once. She’s literally mind broken. The Rennala you fight is a glimpse of her at her fullest, which Ranni conjures to test you, or something. Actually, it’s implied she’s telling you to keep up the charade.
>>94752609All an elaborate scheme for her to have some Me time.
>>94752447Of course it should. If it didn't have consequences it wouldn't be magic, you'd just be waving a wand around for nothing.
>>94752740Only for player characters though.Huge, armored sorcerers are top tier enemies.
>>94752447The only cases where you can get away with magic not having consequences is if the direct effects of magic are extremely weak and/or spells take a lot of time to execute.Needing a whole ritual to light a candle might have some utility, but not if it has a chance to burn off one of your fingers.
>>94752447I hope so, or otherwise it isn't very useful.
>>94753045You can also get away with magic not having consequences if it is basically omnipresent. As in, literally everyone alive can and does use magic on a regular basis because its just a common skill. Like singing, anyone can do it but not everyone can do it WELL and the people who can do it the BEST are still rare and special for it. Anyone can mumble their way through a round of 'Happy Birthyday', but that doesn't make them qualified to sing opera. Likewise, anyone can light a candle with a touch or charm a knot to hold itself closed, but that doesn't mean you can fly or change the weather or summon a swarm of bees.
There is no evidence to support that crushing and snorting glintstone causes brain cancer
>>94752712>We can’t even be sure if Azur and Lusat are fine She says upon quest completion that she sent to retrieve the bodies of Lustat and Azur, which is a hint to go back to their locations and loot their armor sets. She killed them.
>>94752447Nope.
>>94752695>>94752717>>94752727I'm pretty sure she did it to herself, as a consequence of touching the primeval current.
>>94752447Hmmm, curious....https://arch.b4k.co/v/thread/699471024/Same filename and everything.
>>94753322>as a consequence of touching the primeval current.You can touch the primeval current without losing yourself to it. It’s primeval philosophy that’s bad. Graven masses are an artificial attempt at skipping steps. Becoming some crystal Buddha over time is what’s “natural”.
>>94752804>>94753314>>>/v/699478723Reposting the same image too...
>>94753365Shut up retard
>>94753444You first, /v/ermin spamposting scum.
>>94752721>Either magic costs something to use, or its use has deleterious side effects on the world, or it needs to be done with extreme care lest the power wrest itself from the casters control and run amok.What are the pros and cons of each approach as you understand them?
>>94752717>It’s also possible that Sellen did it to herself, but I find this hard to believe, for reasons.I always assumed it was her attempt to gaze at the Primeval Current.Which turned Lusat and Azur into rocks.So it twisted her in body as well.
>>94752514What if you cast fireball indoors and, in addition to incinerating your foes, you also set the house on fire?
>>94753495> magic has a costObvious depends on the cost, but the simple fact that it costs *something* means that there is always a pro vs con to its use. Small uses of magic may be cheap, but one must assume that larger scale/more potent magic costs more to use. And I doubt what it costs is measured in coin. Maybe its some of your vitality and it just leaves you exhausted, and over-taxing yourself can have you consumed by the spell entirely. Maybe it requires an external fuel, like magic crystals, which must be painstakingly gathered and hoarded. Unless whatever it costs is plentiful and easy to source, it makes sense for magic users to want to keep the secrets of magic close to their chest because every other magic user out there would be in competition for the same scarce resources so its better that no one else knows its true value. Either way, it provides a simple answer of 'why not just use magic to do X?', which is 'because you can't afford that'.> magic has deleterious effects on the worldIf people know this, magic is likely seen as a terrible art and magic users would be hunted down and killed without the protection of a king who vouches for them. Lets say that you casting a spell drains the land around you, turning good soil into lifeless ash that can never support life again. You wouldn't want people doing that shit willy-nilly, which means that magic is now a tool of last resort in case of emergency where the terrible cost it has on the land has to be outweighed by whatever other problem it is that you need magic to solve... or it become the weapon of evil men who know what the cost is but do not care. If you are a conquering army sweeping across the land, what do you care that the land you leave behind you is poisoned for centuries by your magic? Not your problem, you just keep moving on like a plague of locusts.
>>94752447Always.Both small and great.Mild and extreme.Scoffable and serious.All of them.
>>94753586> needs to be done with extreme care lest the power wrest itself from the casters control and run amokMagic is best done by expert scholars under controlled conditions, the sort of thing where every spell has days or weeks of preparation ahead of time to make sure that not a thing goes amiss. Nobody wants their wizard school and everyone in it to be turned to molten glass because incantation chanter #4 had a voice that was too deep and it threw off the harmonics.If using magic can go wrong unless everything is just right, then actual magic is likely done very rarely, experimentation is discouraged and you are expected to follow the instructions of what has worked before exactly, and magic users are to be kept far away from population centers so that the inevitable magical accidents happen in the middle of nowhere instead of the middle of the city. It also means that casting a spell in the middle of something as chaotic as combat is only ever done as a suicide bomb, using the uncontrolled surge of magic and the destruction it brings with it as the intended end goal, because a controlled use of magic would be all but impossible.
>>94752447No. It should never have consequences, EVER.>>94752514If you cast a fire ball something else must be frozen solid. it saps the heat out of one thing to redistribute it to another.
>>94753529The creation of graven masses is an artificial mad science experiment. Azur and Lusat became crystal buddhas over time. Glintstone is like a cancer.
>>94752447yes, especially for those who dare stay in magician's way
every problem with easy, superficial fixes; fixes that will increasingly devolve into short-term bandaids that lead to the problem getting worse when the “fix” wears off and the problem comes back.Even ties into the idea that magic is strange and misunderstood by everyone. A wizard is a mystic, not a scientist. They *know* how magic works and that’s that and by “know” I mean assertions they pulled directly from their ass . They lack the mental discipline to do any serious unbiased testing, and their egos too delicate to even entertain anything contrarian to their own model of the nature of magic.
>>94752712I like how when you find Azur he is just levitating in meditation, gives you a spell, then goes silent again. You can’t even do anything to him. Only a few attacks will make him flinch.
>>94753947It’s like that episode of Recess where they go to a retirement home and the not!Einstein senior refuses to talk to anyone who isn’t on his same level. He just sits there otherwise, staring into space. And then some nerd girl brings up physics and he doesn’t shut up.
>>94753894Shit, damn phone cut off the first half of my post that was saying that the consequences of magic should be a lazy mind.
Yes. In the real world every instance of magic, spelled magick and includes psi phenomena, is conveyed and faciliated by fallen angels. Invariably the user is destroyed in such a long term he or she isn't aware until it's too late. During then the "angels of light" promise enlightenment and longevity.
>>94752447No, because then it wouldn't be magic
>>94754157> the real world every instance of magic, spelled magick and includes psi phenomena, is conveyed and faciliated by fallen angels.Uhh, buddy… in the real world magic isn’t actually real. Nor is psionics for that matter. And don’t get me started on the .pic.What I’m saying is: take your meds.
>>94754820>pharmakeiaReally now?
>>94754828>Fauci is a dark wizardHow did I not see it before...
>>94754157Relatedly, I've been tinkering with a setting where having magical ability results in a condition akin to being a schizo.
>>94752447>Should magic have consequences?Not negative consequences, no. I don't play games to have my fun limited.
>>94752447I like it when it attracts demons.Our rough use of magic to alter the reality carefully crafted by the gods disrupts the veil separating our dimension from the demonic one, allowing them to seep in and maybe even damage our safe little bubble.
>>94752447yes
>>94755880Based. Wizards (and witches) should be like vampires. The older and the longer and more scraggly the beard (or more warty the face if witch), the more powerful the wizard. Same way elder vampires are mummified nosferatu-esque creatures.
>>94752447Traditional games?
>>94754854Unknown Armies?
>>94752447Not for every setting or game but I'm a big fan of it, particularly mounting physical mutations. I like the theme of transformation in games and it makes sense to me that funneling magic through and around your body would alter you over time. I mean the normal things we do and are exposed to everyday shape what we look like change our physical form, why wouldn't magic?This vid is one of my favorite depictions of how magic could alter a body. I think it's super neat.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwCV1opXBv8Symbaroum had a magic system where casting spells had the consequence of buildnig corruption. Too much corruption and you turn into a raging malignant arcane monster. But there were special rituals that could be done to bleed off corruption which were specific to each school of magic. I loved that idea, it adds a very different tension to adventuring when you know the longer you go out your mages are running the risk of exploding and killing everyone around them.
>>94756303>The older and the longer and more scraggly the beard (or more warty the face if witch), the more powerful the wizardHalf agree. It should absolutely work that way for men. The opposite should be true for women. The older and more powerful they get, the more scantily clad and heartstoppingly beautiful they become.Because you damn well KNOW that's what women would do with magic.
>>94752447I like the concept of magic hastening the aging process, mana, spell points, etc representing the caster's literal life force. Also a fun reason for why so many wizards have grey hair.
>>94758680No. Fuck that. Stop being a coomer.
>>94758085>SymbaroumLovely aesthetic, horrible writing/layout. I flinched when I saw that wizards and theurges were separate. They were actually the same in history. They also jump into revealing the mysteries of Symbaroum way too fast.
>>94758938Coomer or not, I have to agree with anon there. There is no possible way that women aren't going to use increasingly powerful magic to make themselves more desirable. That is 200% what would happen the moment women got access to arcane power. Spitting facts doesn't make you a coomer. It makes you accurate.
>>94755880Did he stick his staff up a fairy's ass in the 4th pic?
>>94759008>all women are vain No you dumb chud
>>94757450Significantly different than UA, but cosmic bumfights is still probably applicable.
>>94752447You cast a spell and something happens. Do you need more consequences?
>>94759321
>>94756933see >>94753354
>>94752447Here's a tip for you all.You want magic to be magical? Give the players the ability to use it to do anything.I mean ANYTHING.If they are level 5 and can cast a fireball, that spell itself shouldn't have consequences, let him have his fun.I ask for a arcane knowledge everytime someone cast something but you don't need toBut let's suppose, they want to ressurrect a fallen team member but don't have a ressurrection scroll in hand and none knows how to cast.Allow a ritual to do it.Put a cost on it.And consequences if it fails.It's fun.
In my setting, base magic can be used by anyone who trains in it. There are no "gifted" users. However, if a wielder increases their skill and studies more, they have the chance of elevating themselves into a higher being and their physical appearance will reflect their morality. For example, a heinous man will appear as a monstrous, powerful being, his grotesque appearance a reflection of his twisted soul while a saintly figure will appear more ethereal. A wizard focused on the mundane will have a more grounded appearance while those focused on the immaterial will either appear eldritch or shed their physical presence entirely and ascend to a higher plane. The same process goes for powerful warriors, though they lack the magical abilities. This setup provides me a plethora of thematic encounters and also allows for an evolution of characters that stretches beyond their individual personalities.
>>94761040Cultivation?
>>94752447Why did she do it?
From a mechanics perspective, giving magic some heavy (potential) consequences is one of the best ways to balance it. Rolling on a chart to see if you have to pay the piper for turning the battlefield in to knee-deep cake frosting so your enemies can't move will make people hesitate more than any other method of balancing this kind of encounter shifting ability. Your arm might explode in to a fine mist for your trouble, or your friend will. Or you get thrown 3 stories in the air. Or you summon demons hostile only to you right on the spot. Or you just turn purple. Other attempts to balance magic usually end up with magic being too lame or with people ignoring the book keeping intended to keep it balanced. By lore, this potentially fits better with the concept of someone who has no power of their own but twists some other, outside, force to their whims. Your reach exceeds your grasp and you may pay for it. Or not.
>>94762268Do what? Bump an offtopic /v/ thread?
>>94754820>>94754157Well, fortunately, the things that used to be willing to deal with humans are no longer willing to give them the time of day. Think about it in context and you might figure out why. Thus the current common exposure with this sort of thing is just through charlatans. Not people using 'familiar spirits'. But it is worth noting that is the original view of what magic even is. Humans cannot just do a set of obscure motions and out pops fairy glitter from your anus. You got magic by convincing something else to use it's natural, god given, gifts to do a task for you. Including telling you stuff you aren't supposed to know or can't know. Which is how any form of divination would work. That all said, anon is right. This is a massively poor idea. Anything capable of doing this is thousands of years old and has vastly more experience than the human they are dealing with. You are not going to win in a duel of wits or will. Not for long. In DnD terms, you'd be a warlock and every possible pact you make is with something that wants you dead by long ways or short ones. Which I know isn't a convincing argument against it for most. People who think they have no future will eagerly sell their soul on the cheap, and one life full of riches is very cheap compared to eternity.
>>94762441Why do you hate discussion?
>>94752721>There is no such thing as free, easy, limitless power without risk of danger or side effects.There is one. The forbidden magic of the stars and the stripes, which the great sorcerer Josef Stalin once called upon...Lend-Lease.
Depends on the setting and system you're going for. Grimdark setting and hardcore system yes.The more casual/light hearted/powerfantasy it leans the more it can just be there to empower player characters.Are you retarded OP?
>>94765703Discussion of what? Offtopic videogames?
>>94766531Is magic off topic to tabletop games?
>>94766581Is Sellen a character from your games (that don't exist) or from videogames?
>>94766597Is the idea that magic is dangerous and has consequences off topic to tabletop games involving wizards?
>>94759008>powerful magical being with reality altering powers>I'll just make myself look like whatever the current fad says is hot>instead of changing everything else around me and saying that what I normally look like is actual beautyNo games and no women
>>94766632And what does asking about the motivations and actions of a videogame character have to do with any of that?
>>94754854>divine madnessVery common. Shams and oracles.>>94754839Did you know ancient clerics had to get high in closed of spaces in their temples? Mystery cults made it a secret where they got high.
>>94752447Magic should be like code. If you do everything perfectly, it can do some incredible things. However if you fuck up something even as small as punctuation, it will explode in your face or have drastically different results than desired. Low level magic should be relatively simple and understandable, why high level magic should be incomprehensible to even the experts who are crafting it. Above all else, the how should be understandable, the why should be unknown with multiple different schools of theory trying to explain away inconsistencies.
>>94752447Depends on the setting, tone of the game, and the design goals of the ruleset. I wouldn't recommend trying to hack a system to support this into dee-un-dee fifth, for instance.But sure, I personally like the concept.I had a setting where magic caused mutations in those who wielded it which reflected the kind of magic they were doing. Independent wizards would become increasingly inhumanoid in a semi-random fashion, while those channelling magic from some sort of patron would more predictably take on aspects of their source. A cleric of the prosperity god might find their eyes turn to gemstones or their mouth constantly filling with wine, a paladin of the war god could have their hand fuse to their favoured weapon, druids would take on animal and plant features, etc. I think the plan was that true wizards would be an npc only thing, player character casters would need a metaphysical dealer for their reality bending. I only ever got around to running a few sessions of dungeon world (already a mistake) slightly tweaked to accommodate these ideas, and that was years ago now.At some point I might go back to rebuild it and try to make a fantasy version of the sci-fi biopunk system I've been writing, adapting the mechanics for biological augmentations to instead reflect magical mutations.
>>94766669No, women totally would use magic to make themselves hotter if magic actually worked, just like they use make-up, weight-loss drugs, skimpy clothes, and plastic surgery to do so IRL.They wouldn't do it to appeal to men, mind you. They'd do it to flex on other women.
