My party has a guy who always speaks up for the (unjust) status quo. Like, it's fucking annoying.If we have a kingdom, he'll be a supporter of the monarchy. Slavery? He supports slavery. Hates orcs? He hates orcs.Like every time I try and get the party to shake things up, he always takes the wind out of my sails. His argument is "This is how the setting is, I'm making someone who fits in instead of stands out."Like what kind of dick sees a grimdark setting and goes "Perfectly fine, nothing to change here?"
>>94762762I can do both, man.
>>94762752What was the premise of your game?
>>94762768Sorry then, my mistake. i couldnt tell if you were a robot or just mentally ill. Dont let me disturb you
>>94762794First one was Exalted, so it was "Make your own plot."The orc one was set on Golarion, and I think it was based off the Ironfang Invasion AP.
It sounds to me like the issue is that you aren't giving this player any incentive to be a revolutionary, nor a good reason for opposing the status quo. Why should he want to overthrow a monarchy? Have you established that it's a corrupt system thats worse than its alternatives, and does it benefit the player individually to join a movement to change that? Is slavery something ingrained within the overall culture (and therefore something very challenging to make people want to change), or a tool utilized by a very small amount of the elites? Moreover, how does slavery affect the player character?
>>94762837I'm not the DM, I'm a player. I mean it's more that when we see some inherent, systemic injustice, he always deflates any attempt to fix it.Sure we kill monsters and so on, but it's like we're not actually fixing problems. We're just the 'doing stuff' guys.
>>94762752Are you explicitly making the campaign about shaking things up? Like having an evil monarchy and telling the players to make characters that would join a rebellion? Because otherwise, there's nothing wrong with those characters. They'll buy meat from the butcher because that's normal, instead of attacking the butcher for not being Vegan.
>>94762846I repeat all of my questions, substituting "the GM" for "you"
>>94762852But like, those are obviously plot hooks to be followed up on. Instead the guy deliberately avoids that and encourages us to just do dungeon-crawling.
>His argument is "This is how the setting is, I'm making someone who fits in instead of stands out.">when we see some inherent, systemic injustice, he always deflates any attempt to fix it.It sounds to me you're applying a 21st century morality to this game world, while he's roleplaying someone born to and shaped by it.
>>94762911Sure, but that's the most boring way to go about things, is what I'm saying. That way, we don't bring about any positive change at all, it's just the same shit.The game becomes about trying to get rich rather than doing anything worthwhile.
>>94762895Are they? >Kingdom existsThis isn't a plot hook.>Society hates orcsOnly so much the PCs can be expected to do about that, especially if there's an ongoing war with orcs. >Slavery existsThis is almost a plot hook, but really relies on at least some form of abolitionist movement.Something merely existing doesn't necessarily make it a plot hook. A farm isn't a plot hook because you could trespass and set all of the animals free.
>>94762940That could be entirely true or entirely false, without specifics on how this setting works and what challenges you're considering it's impossible to give a meaningful response.I'm going to focus on the monarchy, since it's the first one you mentioned. Why the drive to overthrow it? Why is it grimdark? Is this monarch's relationship with the general population beloved, hated or ambivalent? What about the noble houses, what's their deal? Any nascent rebellions or encroaching rival nations?
>>94762965Well I mean, the King is a moron who is perpetuating a war his father started, which has been locked in a grinding stalemate for a decade. The common folk are too dumb to do anything but support him, and the nobles all have magic. Shit's not going to change unless the party does something.
>>94763090>The common folk are too dumb to do anything but support him, and the nobles all have magic.So are the common folk being inconvenienced by this war in any way? Do the nobles support the war? If the answer is that neither group cares or is impacted, then your drive for change (democracy?) isn't going to find purchase with either group. And if the peasants are too dumb to care about the king, are you really trusting them to do better in your reformed system?
JC wa seikou da
>>94762806>First one was ExaltedThe setting of Exalted is one where the dominant cultures/civilizations of the entire world has, as a cornerstone of their religion, the lie that you, personally, are an evil demon that exists only to spread darkness, pretending to be a human
>>94763256Pretty much. The player felt that the system was fine, it was just that they got it wrong and the REAL demons were the Dragon-blooded.Let that sink in. He wanted to wipe out an entire race of people, looked at their religion and went "Hmmmm, I see nothing wrong here, it's just that they're going after the wrong people and I should be in charge."I don't know how he took that shit away from an 'overthrow the evil empire' plot.
>>94763334It seems more that your issue is that your DM is completely freeform which means this player will overrule any attempt to make the campaign expand besides wander around and kill shit.Talk to the DM if you are friendly with him and express that you would like him to be more hands on, but subtle about it like have the characters in game find information in game or a job that would drive your retarded friends character to actually do something Also it could be that you are simply a bad fit for this group as they would rather do mindless shit instead of engage with greater plotlines or the setting
>>94763334But that is 100% appropriate as a goal for a Solar. 1E had a Dawn Caste who wanted to do the same thing.There are Ink Monkeys Charms that let you tap into your fury at the Usurpation, and kill DBs.
>>94763334Why answer some.of the questions but not this >>94763198 ? Seemed to bring up some interesting points. What's likely actually happening is you and this player have incompatible ideological baggage or lenses you're unable to step away from and use ttrpgs to play out power fantasies rather than experience different roles. You're stuck resenting each other or PvP until one of you ragequits or gets kicked.
>>94763090If all the nobles and peasants support the king, what kind of new government do you even expect the players to put in place?
>>94764087If it's ideological baggage like you say then OP's party crank is a disingenuous liar and a coward on top of all the other stuff. He's trying to hide behind "iT's WhAt My ChArAcTeR wOuLd Do!" when he couldn't give two flying shits about character consistency, only his political masturbation fantasies.
>>94762752What game?
>>94764256Couldn't you also level the same accusations at OP himself?
>>94764256I think that other anon meant ideology as in game phylosophies. One wants to mold and chage a world with their actions and the other wants to see what it'd be like to exist in a different world, the first has some distance from the setting and comes with a meta morality tied to changing things while the later is responding to the inputs and seeing who he'd be in that world. Neither has to be like racists or communist or whatever, it can work in any direction and even purely in game interaction ways.
>>94762752Why would the default setting for a character born and raised in a society not to be similar to other people born and raised in that society?People born and raised in a society that practices slavery don't just magically know it's wrong. They have been indoctrinated from birth to believe it's fine. It takes a lot to break that programming. Have you given the character a reason to be radically different from EVERY OTHER PERSON HE HAS EVER KNOWN? Being an abolitionist in a society that broadly practices slavery would essentially make you the unabomber -- a complete social pariah and probably a dangerous terrorist. Think of the craziest conspiracy theorist you can -- that is how an abolitionist would look. Voluntarily becoming that is a tall order and demands some extraordinary justification, not just rebellion for rebellion's sake.
>>94764364because OP is being open about what he likes or wants in a world without using the setting as an excuse. I think, that's what I got from the post with a tiny bit of reading comprehension.
>>94764397yes and noyou could have your reasons in your backstory if that's the thing you're playing, the plucky rebels trying to take down the empire kind of deal. Why do characters think the wizard kings can be beaten in Dark Sun? Because you need that for the premise to work, in context there's no way to convince someone that the living god is some dude you can take down. You could make normal people and have the GM give you the moment that changes you, but you still have to agree to the premise at that point and also agree to be moved by the thing they presented. Otherwise you're gonna be a dirt farmer rolling to take a potato, like a normal person would.
>>94764416If you're going to apply the accusation of "political masturbation fantasies", then it sounds more like something that OP agrees he's doing, see >>94762911 and OPs response of >>94762940
>>94764452I just said OP was sincere about it, which makes the other dude insincere. You answered telling me > it sounds more like something that OP agrees he's doingwhat is the point of your post? How is OP agreeing or not an issue at all? You really need to cut off the internet a read a book or something.
>>94763334Didn't you just say that Exalted' "make your own plot"? You don't have to overthrow the evil empire, and if you do, just replacing it with you own evil empire is, like, a completely Solar thing to do.>>94764416If the player OP talks about does the same thing in every setting, regardless of what the setting is, just what real world ideology would he be trying to push while using the setting as an excuse?
>>94764484I have no idea where your hostility is coming from, other than assuming every interaction here needs to be pvp. You seem to be saying that if OP wants to change a setting to fit his beliefs that's "sincere", but if the other guy does not want to its "political masturbation". I don't get why this is a good thing for OP but not the other guy. My personal stance is that both characters are well within their right to want those things and it should be resolved as an in-universe conflict between two ideologically opposed people.
>>94764511>If the player OP talks about does the same thing in every setting, regardless of what the setting is, just what real world ideology would he be trying to push while using the setting as an excuse?I was just explaining the post to someone with no reading comprehension, I'm not that anon. If I'd have to guess he did the same addition the people calling him based did, the three examples in the OP give a pretty clear image.
>>94762752I call bullshit. But good job getting some engagement tilting at your strawman.
>>94764552>You seem to be saying that if OP wants to change a setting to fit his beliefs that's "sincere", but if the other guy does not want to its "political masturbation".no, not at all. You're making up shit instead of reading the words. I react with hostility because you're answering random stuff and it's frustrating to see. The idea in the post your replied to was that both OP and the dude he doesn't like are projecting their ideologies. But while OP is saying>let's make a game about building a world the way I think it should behis hated player is saying>[monarchy/slavery/racism] exist in this world, I'm not saying I like it but I'm gonna go out of my way to defend themIt's possible that OP just gave three bad examples and the dude also played a socialist hero of the revolution and a vietnam soldier liberating cambodia. We don't know. I don't care. You should try reading something longer than 5k characters for a week or two, it will do you good.
>>94764566But why would you make that guess? OP just seems to be complaining about a guy who always makes a character who fits in with the setting instead of shaking it up the way OP would prefer. It's not impossible that there's some kind of political masturbation behind it, but there also isn't much reason at all to assume that there is. >>94762752An important question I should've asked before, OP: how does the rest of your group, including the GM, feel about this?
>>94762752Work with the GM. Establish a group within the setting that shares intended PC goals, and say everyone is part of it. If they still go directly contrary to that, their character mysteriously died two in-game weeks before the campaign starts.>Like what kind of dick sees a grimdark setting and goes "Perfectly fine, nothing to change here?"Given how big warhammer is here, you'd think you would be a little more aware.
>>94762940>Sure, but that's the most boring way to go about things
>>94763380>this player will overrule any attempt to make the campaign expand besides wander around and kill shit.How is "overwriting a religion with the theological equivalent of an uno reverse card and taking over the world via hijacking the dominant religion" NOT an expansion of the campaign?
>>94764256>when he couldn't give two flying shits about character consistency, only his political masturbation fantasies.But OP was crying that his characters are TOO setting-consistent when instead they should be libtard political crusaders.
>>94762752>"Perfectly fine, nothing to change here?"That's literally the message of Grimdark."It sucks and you can't change it."What are you, retarded?
>>94762752>>94762846>>94762940Seems clear that you and he want very different games.He wants an adventure game about surviving danger and getting rich.You want a superhero game where you right the world's wrongs.The two of you want to play different games.This is why things like "session zero" exist: to establish what game you want to play as a group.Talk with your group like an adult about what everyone wants so everyone is explicitly on board with one idea.
>>94765232>what if a player wants to take down a wizard king not to free the heckin slaverinos but so he can BE the wizard kingThen they're still in a setting where beating the wizard king is a pipe dream.
>>94764388I would definitely agree with you except for this phrase used in that post I replied to:>play out power fantasies rather than experience different rolesBut my point is that's a bad argument on the face of it. That seems like it's true for OP for sure, but he's being plain and transparent about that baggage. If the other guy is doing the same thing, then he's worse because he's disguising his motive in the pettiest way possible.
>>94765405those who say it can't be helped are the ones that can't be helped
>>94765653There's absolutely nothing in anything OP's said indicating that the other guy's doing the same, though.
>>94765675Anon, are you reading posts or just skimming them? Because your post is not actually a response to mine.
Obvious bait thread is obviousNice premise though, very meta>>94764087I don't see how the other player is doing this at all.>>94764364He did (read the post, retard), but he was wrong to level that accusation at the roleplayer also.
>>94762752>If we have a kingdom, he'll be a supporter of the monarchy.Based>Slavery?Also Based>Hates orcs? He hates orcs.Again, Based.>His argument is "This is how the setting is, I'm making someone who fits in instead of stands out."This is a statemeant my (and other GMs) would really appreciate. So Again, Very Based.None of these are plothooks and as long as you are the only one having a Problem with this you are the Problem. Especially if the DM is fin with that.In any way I think this is some form of Bait since there is no way someone lie you found their way here.
>>94762752You strike me as someone that wants to turn any and every fantasy world into modern day big city just with magic instead of smartphones.You are probably just as annoying to your fellow player as he is to you. He's roleplaying as just an other guy in the setting. You want to impose modernity on the setting.I'd suggest you find a different group to suits your "magic instead of smartphones" tastes.>>94764443taking down the wizard kings in darksun works because it's in the characters self interest.If you want an abolitionist in a slaving society you could play a person from an other society, an ex-slave, a person with enslaved family/friends/lover or just a person that gets fucked over by the slave system like a small hold farmer('s kid) who had to compete with large slave farms.those would all give a person a in world reason to be against slavery. Not just we consider slavery bad so our characters do as well.
>>94765995>taking down the wizard kings in darksunshould never be anywhere near achievable for a character born in the setting
>>94765995>Not just we consider slavery bad so our characters do as well.Considerable portion, possibly even majority, of people in the hobby is physically incapable of distinguishing between in character and out of character perception.
So it's a bit like playing a paladin with a lawful evil ally?
>>94766008yes, but the goal of opposing them / dream of taking them down are in character motives for just about every character you can make in the setting.>>94766028that's the sad reality and OP's problem, 1st person itis
>>94762752Engaging with the setting and making fitting characters for said setting sounds massively less annoying than whatever level of faggotry you're on
>>94765892No adventurers fit in, basedfaggot. You don't run games.
>>94762752Have the status quo fuck him over. Oh, turns out the people in charge who you were fellating all your life don't care and treat you as an expendable pawn/data point at best :^)Seriously though, what we have here is a failure to communicate, best resolved at the level of declaring your campaign premise, assuming you care about the player at all.
>>94766640He's not even the gm bro, just a player salty no one else in the group wants to uproot the setting because it doesn't conform to his modern standards.
>>94766515corrcet I am just a player. And Adevnturers can very much fit in. Not everyone whats "social outcasts/misfits that in the day":It is entire dependend on the game and setting you wanna play. And as already said by other people in this thread, this player and the other player want two different things.
>>94766640he is just a salty player not the DM
>>94765653The other guy seems to be making characters who actually fit into the setting, instead of being outliers to it.
>>94764256>OP outright admits that he wants to enforce his own morality onto the setting, not his characters mind you, his>'Yeah the other guy wants it to be all about his political wank fantasies'You're an actual honest to god moron.Or rather, dishonest to god, because I don't believe that you believe what you're saying.
>>94762752>>94762846>>94762895>>94762940This is either a massive troll or an unbearable faggot. Regardless, go fuck yourself. Having your character integrate into the setting as one of its people is one of the highest forms of roleplaying. The whole point of roleplaying is to be part of an imaginary world. The “conformist” is doing nothing wrong.
>>94762752Have you tried talking with your player, rather than throwing a tantrum to random anonymous strangers online?Sounds to me you are the kind of carpet muncher that gets rolled over anyone in any context, but then seethes five days later.
>>94767509its not "his player". He is NOT the DM.He is just another player.Amd he has likely left this thread due to backlash.>>94767504Absolutly correct
>>94762752How is any of this a problem? Most of the characters I make are in some way approving of their society and are either thrust into an active role or their ambitions are to change their status rather than society. Off the top of my head I can name>cyberpunk ganger that be the rich rather than eat the rich and would gleefully sell any would-be revolutionary to human traffickers for some quick cash>fantasy soldierman that was willing to follow whatever authority could provide safety and stability for his family, is getting increasingly disappointed in all of them and realizing he may have to step up to the plate>"disposable" son that has lived as a traveling merchant/mercenary for a time, is torn between wanting to prove his worth to his clan and enjoying his low-responsibility life>magitech-generated autistic meatdroid that has an intrinsic, compulsive desire to dive into dungeons and helping people>40K interrogator trying to use their authority to maximize personal gain/authority
>>94767282No, you're just functionally illiterate and skim posts for words you recognize then make assumptions from there.
>>94770857Are you the same anon who's complained about several other anons misunderstanding or just skimming your posts earlier ITT? If you are, you should consider the possibility that multiple people apparently misreading your posts might just be a sign of you being bad at expressing yourself clearly.
>>94771716Or that there's a well-documented adult illiteracy crisis.
>>94763334Whats wrong with that? The Dragon-Blood are slaves to there treasonous masters. The Solar deserve to rule, to reclaim. To be resplendent sun
>>94772235That you're contributing to, yes
>>94772476Not that guy, but that's killing literally millions of people.
>>94772517It's way, way less than that. There are at most (generously speaking) 15,000 Dragonblooded in all of Creation.The number may actually be less than 10,000. He could accomplish it in less than a decade, it's an entirely achievable goal.m2XVG
>>94772517Yes, and? Do you expect a setting that takes after Bronze Age myth and Chinese Wuxia literature to reflect modern morality and sensibilities? Do you think Odysseus' heart bled when he slaughtered Trojans in their sleep, or when he slaughtered suitors lounging in his house?
>>94772476Nah, Solars already had their chance and they fucked it up.>>94772523Around 30,000, according to 3E, IIRC something like 20,000 or 25,000 according to 2E. >>94772533Have you ever read the Iliad, anon? Because it does have people lamenting the horrors of war and the necessity of killing each other
>>94772673And plenty of other myths have heroes casually killing 1000 men with a single swipe of their blade.
>>94772484When a person can't parse an 'if' statement, that's on them. There's no helping someone stumbling over 3rd grade reading comprehension.
>>94772724Says the guy who can't even parse OP's complaints.
