Its 2025 who still gives a fuck about this pointles argument starting non-topic

>>94779851
Whatever the rules of the game you are playing say.
/thread

>>94779851
No, but Paladin=Compassionate. Doesn't mean they have to be soft and gentle, nor does it mean they need to be foolish.

>puckee21 thread

File: 1736580593530.jpg (579 KB, 3391x2543)

579 KB JPG

Friendly reminder Jeanne could seamlessly switch between comforting her dying enemies and threatening to slaughter an entire city if it didn't surrender.

>>94779916
What's a good example of a Paladin in modern media? Captain America? Obi-Wan Kenobi?

>>94780106
>Tfw no Cannon obsessed schizoid daughteru
Merde!

>>94779851
They can be, if their player feels like it. I feel like to a degree they certainly ought to be.

But then, I feel like a Paladin should be a Lawful Good only Chosen One selected by the higher powers of Good as their instrument on Earth. They should be a knight in shining armour who has no cruelty in them, and who defeats Evil not the sake of defeating Evil but to create a world where those who do not live by the sword can live lives of peace and plenty.

>>94779851
Only if his god=nice or he will be an heretic fleeing from the inquisitorial branch.

>>94780112
He may be a secret king, but its pretty hard to out-paladin Captain Carrot Ironfoundersson
Though his boss probably does out-paladin him, he doesn't do it with the same charisma. Carrot is the Nice paladin, Vimes is paladin

File: Carrot_Ironfoundersson.jpg (83 KB, 500x789)

83 KB JPG

>>94780382
Forgot pic

>>94780112
Luke is much more of a paladin than obi-wan

File: jw7lygNWSkMUB5IlWW0pqSITX(...).jpg (66 KB, 387x569)

66 KB JPG

>>94779851
>Mom, I posted it again!

File: Percival.jpg (20 KB, 400x223)

20 KB JPG

>>94780112
Where would you guys put Percival from Excalibur on his ranking of exhibiting the traits of an actual paladin?

>>94779851
No, Paladins are not "nice." Being truly good is not "nice" because it requires standing against evil, neutrality, and apathy. Being truly lawful is not "nice" because it requires conforming lawbreakers to the law by force.

Paladins are rough men ready to do violence to not only crush evil but to require good of others; not only to crush chaos but to bring the chaotic into conformity with the law. This means that to people who are not good and lawful, they come across as terrifying fanatics backed up by martial might and the power of God. To people who are good and lawful, paladins come across as a challenge to their own virtue -- their very existence always force good and lawful people to ask themselves, "Am I doing enough for law and good? If not, am I the evil/chaotic/neutral/apathetic person who must be struck down to save the world?"

People of all kinds hate and fear paladins on some level, and paladins themselves respond with contempt for the weaknesses of others that lead them to evil/chaos/neutrality/apathy, while simultaneously desperately wanting to save the kernel of goodness and lawfulness that exists (for creatures capable of good and lawfulness, such as humans and some dwarves and not very many others) under the filth.

None of this leads to very "nice" interactions.

File: fuckee.png (408 KB, 632x696)

408 KB PNG

>>94779851
Everybody knows it's you, puckee. Fuck off.

>>94783092
I think your latter point only really applies to the insecure or those who aren't truly lawful and/or good to their core. Those who truly believe in righteousness and lead a life of good have no cause to look upon a Paladin with dread. They can just as easily see them as guardians who affirm their values. Yes, there can be lawful and good people who fear they aren't doing enough, but that doesn't mean the default is to fear those who look to be better than you.
Similarly, Paladins can also feel sympathy or understanding for those weaker than themselves. Not everyone can be a paragon of moral virtue, but seeing a willingness to try in spite of weakness is virtuous in itself.

I think it's a complex issue, but overall too many people want paladins to be retarded lawful stupids or people like Javert/Deus Vult meme crusaders.

>>94779851
You can have "good intentions" and still be an arrogant, self-righteous jerk

>>94780106
>Anime shit
Anime always has the worst takes but the best waifus.

File: 381938.jpg (431 KB, 1920x1200)

431 KB JPG

>>94779851
>Does Paladin=Nice?
Yes.

Paladin

From French paladin, from Italian paladino, from Late Latin palātīnus (“palace officer”), derived from palātium (“palace”). Doublet of palatine.

1. A heroic champion, especially a knight.
2. A defender or advocate of a noble cause.
3. Any of the twelve Companions of the court of Emperor Charlemagne.

What a paladin is not:
>unheroic
>not capable of becoming a knight (=of the equestrian class)
>an advocate of an ignoble cause, a violator of noble causes
>not the unique companion of the person in power

>>94783092
Damn that makes paladins sounds like utter dicks

>>94783921
So I guess if nice = fighting for a noble cause then yes.

>>94783092
That sounds evil to me.

File: kick ass and praise the s(...).gif (190 KB, 500x313)

190 KB GIF

>>94783092
Best post so far. Paladins must actively fight evil, chaos and apathy in the world, and that looks "evil/mean" to those who are chaotic, apathetic and evil.

>>94785125
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mobtxEJHhY4

>>94783092
Why protect those who cannot protect themselves when you can hold them in contempt for being weak instead? A Paladin making normal people just trying to live their lives their enemy is insane. They fight so others don’t have to.

But to answer OP’s question, I think there’s more nuance to it than just being nice or not nice. A Paladin is under no obligation to coddle evildoers, but at the same time they shouldn’t be needlessly cruel, nor should they use their power to push around normal people. And I think they should consider an evil person changing their ways to be a greater victory than their death. A Paladin should be firm but just, to put it simply.

>>94779851
You first. Be detailed and specific.

>>94786254
OP HERE
I believe that a paladin must have sympathy for those who have suffered, but doesn't have to be super "nice" or "personable" as long as he does that. If you withdraw too much from the suffering of others you lose your sense of humanity. They must also have conviction when facing evil and be righteous and just. Essentially while they can get away with not being "nice" in no way can they ever be cruel and still be a paladin. Even if they keep their compassion hidden under a stoic veneer it must still be there, and it must be what ultimately drives them. Being good and making tough decision ultimately can't come at the cost of losing your humanity. Basically you must always believe in goodness and want the best for those who deserve it, no matter how stoic or battle-hardened you become. This sense of purpose is what separates a paladin from a mere mercenary.

>>94786553
Play a real game for once in your life, puckee.

>>94779851
superman & Captain America who kills his enemies and sometimes show mercy

>>94783092
This strikes me more as Lawful Evil or Neutral than Lawful Good. Retribution for its own sake or as a component of a personal understanding of justice can be Lawful, but Good requires mercy, hope, forgiveness, a belief that people can change, and a Christlike willingness to at least try to save even the worst and lowest people. Good can't coexist with contempt in the same way it can with empathy, sympathy, or even pity. It's saintly, perfect, selfless compassion of the kind a saint or bodhisattva should have.
All of this allows for defensive violence, even killing, but I think it's more interesting for reaching that point to be a struggle for a paladin in a way it would never be for a normal fighter. A paladin should not just be a cop in armor.

>>94783092
This is why everyone hates paladins.

It's not enough that you play a lawful good character, you must also be a cunt to everyone that doesn't, and only slighly less to those that do.

>>94788011
???

>>94785125
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-gjv5UoNs

>>94780382
I think you missed the opportunity to say Paddlin' Paladin.

>>94779851
A paladin of an evil god is not nice, for example.
Paladins are only associated with the following:
>serving an oath
>casting holy magic
>fighting in combat
Any other traits are permitted as long as they don't contradict the three.

>>94790090
This fucking guy. Punisher is easily evil. He's a control freak and murderer among other things. Just because his victims happen to be evil and Frank has some god complex about saving innocents doesn't make him a good person, and he gets a satisfaction in it that is unbecoming of a paladin.

>>94779851
No?
At least not all the time or from every perspective?
A classical paladin will get on a lot of people's nerves for being too strict, for example.

>>94793464
I'd put him LN

>>94779851
I've talked about this many times over the years on /tg/, but the best Paladin I have ever seen played was played by a little old nun who ran the Games Club in my Catholic High School. Sr Jean Margaret would always offer a chance at repentance and redemption, but wouldn't hesitate to smite those that tried to take advantage of her kindness. Coincidentally she also played a helluva rogue, you haven't lived until you hear a little old nun say stuff like, "While Ragnar distracts the orc chieftain, I'll slip around and stab him in his filthy green kidneys."

No, Hippie paladins are cope. The orc babies was never a dilemma.

>>94779851
>Paladin=Nice
I like current Paladin. Paladins are dedicated to the ideal/oath and will go to lengths to enact/uphold it whenever possible or when things are presented upon them, and detracting any way will make you a breaker of the thing you sworn into because you have to stand true to those concepts it NO MATTER WHAT even when your death or the death of others are in the middle of it.

>>94783092
Based. Nothing hurts people more than having a shining example of all the good they aren't acting as a foil to their weakness.

>>94783220
>Those who truly believe in righteousness and lead a life of good have no cause to look upon a Paladin with dread
Do they not? Are not all humans sinners? Do not all humans deserve damnation?

>>94779851
Paladins have no tolerance towards degeneracy and the weak. They embody everything about the conservative ideal. They're religious knights. They were based on the knights templar for crying out. Wherever they find evil, they are filled with holy wrath and destroy it without thought or mercy.

File: 1726611280978107.jpg (289 KB, 1920x1080)

289 KB JPG

>>94788818
>>94788729
That's the thing about Paladins. They're not there to spread the word of God. They're not there to be a shining example of kindness and patience and love. That's the job of Clerics. That's why the powers of the Cleric are so much better at helping people, while the powers of the Paladin are much more oriented at killing people.

Paladins exist to slay Evil.

Clerics exist to BE Good.

File: 1733306906674451.png (588 KB, 777x417)

588 KB PNG

>>94783092
Pic related, basically. He'll throw himself at you and your party, even if you have a heroic reputation from all the acts of good you've done, if he detects just one evil companion. Paladins do not believe in redemption and do not believe that an evil person can ever do good. They are avatars of Good without compromise and Law without mercy, and it can be terrifying.

>>94794780
That's the thing about Paladins, they are, in a very real sense...quite soulless. They don't behave like regular people, they're almost golems in a sense, machines carrying out a program without any life outside of it.

Here's Gygax's take on Paladins and LG:

>Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applies. Also, as I have often noted, a paladin can freely dispatch prisoners and civilians of Evil alignment that have surrendered and renounced that alignment in favor of Lawful Good. They are then sent on to their reward before they can backslide.

>An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth is by no means anything but Lawful and Good. Prisoners guilty of murder or similar capital crimes can be executed without violating any precept of the alignment. Hanging is likely the usual method of such execution, although it might be beheading, strangulation, etc. A paladin is likely a figure that would be considered a fair judge of criminal conduct.

>Chivington might have been quoted as saying "nits make lice," but he is certainly not the first one to make such an observation as it is an observable fact. If you have read the account of wooden Leg, a warrior of the Cheyenne tribe that fought against Custer et al., he dispassionately noted killing an enemy squaw for the reason in question.

>I am not going to waste my time and yours debating ethics and philosophy. I will state unequivocally that in the alignment system as presented in OAD&D, an eye for an eye is lawful and just, Lawful Good, as misconduct is to be punished under just laws. Lawful Neutrality countenances malign laws. Lawful Good does not.

>Mercy is to be displayed for the lawbreaker that does so by accident. Benevolence is for the harmless. Pacifism in the fantasy milieu is for those who would be slaves. They have no place in determining general alignment, albeit justice tempered by mercy is a NG manifestation, whilst well-considered benevolence is generally a mark of Good.

>Mercy is the shield that evil uses to defend themselves from justice.

He also said LG would slaughter a town of opposing alignment if they capitulated. So yeah.

>>94794816
>tfw God is Neutral Good

>>94794741
>>94794780
So what you're saying is, Paladins are lawful good shitbulls.

File: AI slop.jpg (267 KB, 1024x1024)

267 KB JPG

>>94795310
Basically, yes. Paladins are what happens when you technically operate within Lawful Good parameters, but you strip away all the parts of Lawful Good that make life worth living in the first place. It is a joyless, sour existence of misery, full of people that never learned how to live the Good lives they protect.

Why does it exist? Because antisocial autists can still serve a purpose in a Good society even if they're veritable Karens.

>>94794780
This seems extremely contradictory since your MC themself in BG is ultra evil incarnate by nature yet the paladin party member, an old veteran paladin at that can be convinced to take your side the entire way through.

>>94779851
"Nice" is too nonspecific. I do think paladins should be morally upstanding, which generally precludes being a complete asshole on purpose or taking pleasure in others' pain and deaths (even those of evil people). But doing the right thing often requires going against what a flawed society expects you to do, which will inevitably lead to a lot of people characterizing you as "not nice".

Every time without fail, the kind of people who go on about "paladins/lawful good is not nice" are always people wanting to basically be evil while being called good.

>>94779851
"Good" and "nice" are not expressly the same thing... but honestly, a Good character is going to be nice more often than not. In DnD, you may as well cast the fight of Good vs Evil (the alignments) as Altruism vs Sadism.

With that in mind, a Paladin (Lawful Good) is going to be altruistic. They're going to be respecting of others' lives. They're going to be more willing to sacrifice than take. Their position as also being Lawful won't contradict that, just color it differently than it would be if it were Neutral Good.

>>94779851
No thoughts of your own, jizzjunkie?

>>94780106
All I know about this game is all ths girls gave dicks for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-gjv5UoNs

File: yuhong-ding-arc-2.jpg (1.09 MB, 1920x3009)

1.09 MB JPG

I like the "too pure for this world" archetype of paladin

>>94796050
The thing about Paladins is they’re not designed to be nice. Almost all of their powers are designed around killing. Outside of Lay on Hands, which is a very minor power, they have almost nothing with which to help people outside of combat. So the type of person the Paladin attracts is inherently the type of person who only wants to kill bad guys, but doesn’t want to be nice to good people. When all you have is a hammer, a lot of things start to look like nails.

>>94797863
Nah. I think people who believe this do a great disservice to the idea of paladins and trivialize them. It's like everyone forgot their charisma was for more than smiting, and used for leadership and inspiring others to rise up in the face of fear and hardship. In my opinion Paladins are meant to be an inspiring ideal, basically the romantic vision of a chivalric knight and not the dirty reality. If the only thing the forces of good can do is brutally smash things, in the end they just keep/make the already fucked up world more brutal despite their reasoning.

>>94798054
>If the only thing the forces of good can do is brutally smash things
Paladins aren’t the forces of good, they’re only a very small, very autistic part of it. Clerics are a much more rounded holy warrior that fights, prays, and also helps people outside of combat.

Also Paladins aren’t actually that good at leadership, Bannerets are the real leader figures since they actually have abilities oriented around that role and they’re able to work with people who may not strictly be LG but can still help their cause.

File: superman.png (724 KB, 640x977)

724 KB PNG

>>94783092
Your post describes a Lawful Neutral character, not a Lawful Good one. As someone else said, The Good alignment comes with compassion and mercy.
The archetype of the ruthless Inquisitor who will burn a whole village of heretics with a stone cold face is either a Lawful Evil or a Lawful Neutral.

Lawful Good is Superman.

>>94798094
Gygax himself said the Lawful Good alignment comes WITHOUT mercy

>>94798100
Fair enough, then I guess my understanding of Good in D&D is wrong.

>>94798100
Long after he ceased to be involved with the design. And even then, he was a hack fraud who threw Arneson and other contributors under the bus to create a forced cult of personality.

>>94798100
Stupid as fuck, the point of lawful good is being more about good than being lawful, it's why the rules tend to explicitly say that a lawful good person or paladin doesn't follow the law or local customs just because it's law, because evil laws are still evil.

>>94798103
Neutral Good is what allows for mercy. God is Neutral Good in D&D terms.

>>94798131
Mercy protects the evil doer. Mercy is explicitly not giving someone what they deserve.

>>94798100
Lack of compassion and mercy is literally evil.

>>94798198
Not true, grace and mercy are inherently Chaotic Good concepts, they involve giving people treatment they don’t deserve and haven’t earned under Lawful Good laws.

>>94798152
And who's to decide exactly what someone deserves for a specific crime?
Depending on the scale at which you look at things, the eye for an eye philosophy can be seen as pure evil, as it doesn't allow the circle of hatred and vengeance to ever end, nor turn any of the individuals related to the crime to potentially become productive members of society, and its only result is to produce more sufferings and evil in the future.

>>94798216
So then, your ideal paladin would walk right past an innocent they could save that is in front of them, to go after a fleeing villain leaving them to die since technically they haven't earned anything.

>>94798264
Clerics are the guys who help the innocent. Paladins are the guys who punish the guilty.

>>94798278
That just sounds like laziness on your part and trying to rationalize it as fact. You don't care about playing the role of a paladin, you just want to be a smite bot.

>>94798321
That’s what the game mechanically supports. Paladin abilities are not designed to help civilians, they’re designed to kill.

File: BM&ACE.jpg (91 KB, 1080x600)

91 KB JPG

>>94780112
Probably the best example in modern (although not super recent) media in my opinion is Batman from the DC Animated Universe.
His visual motifs and coding are the opposite of the archetypal paladin, but in terms of writing he's directly on the nose.
Batman is absolutely driven to oppose evil, obeys a strict code and rules of engagement, and is absolutely willing to lay down his life (and nearly does multiple times).
He's also not nice or friendly by any stretch of the imagination being mostly cold, closed off, and awkward at the best of times, outside of him acting as Bruce Wayne.
And yet despite that Batman is endlessly compassionate, deeply believes in his fellow man, and respects the other heroes around him even if he doesn't follow their methods or style.

That stuff to me is the core of what a paladin should be. Anyone can go out and kill evil people and claim to be a servant of justice or god or whatever.
But without the appreciation, compassion, and love you haven't written a paladin; you've made Light Yagami, Dexter Morgan, or Frank Castle.
All of these characters kill evil people and see themselves as enacting justice to varying degrees and yet most people wouldn't hold them up as shining examples of paladins.

Hence the missing ingredient. Love, compassion, and respect for those who fight the good fight even if they do so in different ways.
That's in my mind what makes them a paladin.

>>94798382
Based

File: Knight.jpg (99 KB, 607x816)

99 KB JPG

>>94779851
Not necessarily, a paladin can be nice if you want to roleplay them that way. There are many different ways to play a paladin. And there are many different ways to play lawful good.

>>94795331
Shit take

>play a game based around murdering things
>it's only a moral quandary when Paladins do it in spite of the fact that Paladins are the only ones who have a guarantee of their morality because their class features would disappear if they weren't.
Instead of arguing the point about the actions of the class with actual consequences to immorality, let's ponder why that skeezy wizard in that tower by himself has been inviting young boys as "apprentices" to live with him.
It seems pretty suspect to me.

File: Charlemagne.jpg (124 KB, 1062x700)

124 KB JPG

Being a Paladin means riding along Charlemagne's army as one of his twelve elite troops.
Nothing else.

>>94799198
>posts a paladin that literally did nothing but read the holy texts and prepare to kill anyone who entered as soon as they came in

>>94798133
So is Jesus

>>94799608
He did stuff when he was younger.

>>94780112
Bumpfag please go and stay go

>>94779851

Aren't paladins fanatics?

>>94799369
Jesus, I had to scroll this far to find the one and only good answer.

File: 414cc3ec126df5309e0dedd93(...).jpg (164 KB, 736x981)

164 KB JPG

>>94804039
Can you even be considered a fanatic when your god is a proven entity that literally exists, and grants you magical powers for your service to him? I mean, how extreme do you have to act to be considered a fanatic at that point?

File: __pixiv_fantasia_and_1_mo(...).jpg (1.46 MB, 2142x900)

1.46 MB JPG

>>94805771
The thing that makes Paladins fanatics isn't that they serve a god, but rather that they're so autistic about it. Think of it like this:

Clerics:
>Get more powers from their god that Paladins
>Have fewer restrictions than Paladins do (they have to maintain a reasonably close alignment, but don't have an oath)
>Have a wider variety of more useful abilities than Paladins that are able to be used both in civilian life and in warfare

So what does all that mean? It means that Paladins are pretty much the awkward fanatic spastics that the gods tolerate and begrudgingly support, but don't particularly like, at least not in particular to their more well-rounded Cleric followers..

>>94805802
In what version of what game are you talking about? You need to clarify that. These things vary from system to system. And none of what you are saying is true about the paladins and clerics that I am familiar with.

>>94805965
Pathfinder and D&D

Nah every paladin I've ever played has been an asshole in one way shape or form. Mainly played Paladins of Gods who don't give a shit about lawfulness too much, had one paladin who served Charon, he was a grumpy old fart who would only do things you asked him to do if you paid him as he believed in the whole never do a job for free thing.

File: dragon_62_elmore.jpg (714 KB, 1254x1600)

714 KB JPG

>>94806323
>D&D
Maybe in the newer editions, not in ad&d though. Paladins are granted way more special abilities than any cleric. Clerics get more spells of course but that's because they are focused more on being spellcasters rather than warriors.
And saying clerics don't have an oath or something equivalent is also untrue. If they start breaking the tenets of their religion then there god is going to stop granting them their spells.
There really is hardly any comparison between clerics and paladins in ad&d. Paladins are given so much more (including some of the clerics abilities.) and without devoting themselves in the same way that clerics have to.

Paladins are a chosen avatar of their god and this is how that god would treat their avatar. Any system that does it differently is getting it wrong.

>>94806508
Paladins being an avatar of their god just sounds like pagan demon nonsense desu, I can see why they dropped that.

>>94799198
OP pic also has crusader vibe

>>94798334
>Lay on hands is not designed to help

>>94779851
Paladins are good.
how nice they are depends on how much of an edgelord you, personally, are about the nature of good and evil.
If you're pretty laid back, or a christian or something, you'll probably be pretty nice and merciful.
If you're fuckin' evil, or a new christian convert, you'll be killing anyone you can get away with in the name of the greater good.

GOOD IS THAT WHICH EVIL FEARS
JUSTICE IS MAKING THOSE FEARS REAL

>>94808878
See, this guy is evil.

>>94808803
>Aura of Protection is not designed to help

>>94808803
Lay on hands is extremely minor compared to all the spells Clerics get, including their Channel ability.

>>94779851
Short answer, no. Paladin's must be Good, acting for the benefit of others. If kicking a man in the balls and screaming at him for an hour about how dumb summoning Demons is means he doesn't lose his Soul later on then a Paladin will do it. It might not be his first choice but it's an option.

>>94808803
>lay on heads is not designed to help
>mercy is not designed to help
>different auras like courage, resolve and righteousness is not designed to help
>various utility spells like shield other, cure wounds, protection from evil. bestow grace, greater courage is not designed to help
I never understand murderhobo paladinfags. Why can't the Lawful Good knight both be a nice person who shows compassion and a powerful champion of god that smite his enemies?

>>94812356
Because most players are single minded and can only think in terms of stereotypes I guess.

>>94812356
Paladins are the sword of the gods.

>>94808878
See, this guy is good

>>94779851
Paladin = Morally good
Morally Good = nice

it might be nice to give a child candy and let them stay up playing video games but the morally correct thing is to give them a bed time and ensure they are eating healthy and exercising

>>94812790
doesn't mean he HAS to be a murderhobo. paladins are supposed to be the champion of the good gods. they were chosen because hey are both compassionate and filled with righteous zeal to eliminate evil from the world. that doesn't mean he would kill a kid or a surrendering enemy who is helpless against you

>>94794690
Depends on the setting.

>>94796198
Just remember that Evil can be just as likely, if not more so at times, to present as nice and friendly. However, this comes with the understanding that they are likely only doing so out of convenience or toward an end. Evil can be nice and pleasant, but as soon as it stops being useful or easy they may well turn on you. Maybe not openly, but Evil was never truly on your side to begin with. The only side they honor is their own. It's less "altruism vs. sadism" and more "altruism versus egocentricity." An egocentric can be pleasant, accommodating, and charming, but only so long as it doesn't put them out without promise of reward. In that sense, you could say that Good is better at genuine nicety as well as brutal but fair honesty.

>>94813398
Lawful Good is without mercy according to Gygax.

>>94813322
Bro quoting fuckin Greek classics at us.

>>94813620
Quit with the broken record, fag. We all know you are the same kind of scum as cops who join solely because they get to power trip and give zero fucks about protecting and serving.

>>94813869
Nope, but you can't use AD&D as your defense against Paladins having a wide variety of your abilities if you aren't willing to apply Paladin morality from AD&D

>>94813620
Gygax misunderstands his own system then. If what you're saying is even true. Following laws does not imply a lack of mercy.

>>94779851
Depends what god they're a paladin of.

>>94813885
Mercy is not giving someone a punishment they deserve, ergo to be merciful requires a bending of the law in the first place.

File: 1610397306588.jpg (313 KB, 1170x1600)

313 KB JPG

>>94813907
Oh ok. If that's your definition of mercy then I agree with you to a certain extent. However determining what crime deserves what punishment is a separate matter entirely. If you decide that someone who commits a minor crime deserves a major punishment than that in itself is not good. It is an extreme abuse of your power of decision and is therefor an evil act, not a good one.

The term for that is lawful evil.

Also were exactly did Gary Gygax say that Lawful good is without mercy? I feel like you are making stuff up. What I found was a quote from him were he makes the point that I am making.

"Lawful Neutrality countenances malign laws. Lawful Good does not." -Gary Gygax

>>94813907
Lawful Neutral. Literally defined by caring more about the law itself, than good or evil.

>>94814007
>>94814100
See >>94794816. "Nits make lice". If an evil-doer sins, you have full permission to kill his children.

>>94814158
Not reflected in any sort of canon outside that one set of statements you guys love to repeat over and over as though repeating it more makes it makes it more true, and this was also long after he ceased to be involved with DND altogether.

>>94814185
But he was involved with AD&D which was the edition that >>94806508 is referencing.

>>94814158
No you don't. His children are innocent, they don't deserve any punishment.

That would be an example of an evil law, which Gygax said a paladin will appose. You just don't understand alignments even on a basic level.

>>94814203
That was my post and it has nothing to do with what we are talking about.

>>94814230
>That would be an example of an evil law, which Gygax said a paladin will appose
And yet Gygax is supporting it, so it must not be evil after all.

>>94814233
Were did he support it? You are just making stuff up now.

File: FCH0DZkUcAAZbfz.jpg (1.15 MB, 1256x2000)

1.15 MB JPG

>>94779851
Yes.
Morals and ethics, as edgefags are so fond to point out, are a social construct.
They are a matter of how we choose to conduct ourselves, often to our own immediate detriment, to engineer a better kind of social circle and society, ultimately, for a better Quality of Life.
Shit like 'don't lie' 'defend the weak' 'strike out at tyrants' etc.


While a Paladin may be excessively driven, desensitized to carnage, or hold exceptionally high standards that breed enmity in those who don't meet them, a Classical Paladin is going to have a very strong moral and ethical core, and as such is going to be 'nice'.
You could argue that education, wisdom, experience and factional motivations could compel a Paladin to a state in which they're not 'nice', but given their station and the likely expectations and experiences, an uneducated or monocultured Paladin, who lacks the capacity for self-reflection, is unlikely.


Now a modern ttrpg Paladin, that being a PC who's will and charisma give them superpowers ala a Force user from SW, or a Wizard from WoD, they have the capacity to be 'not nice' as they're oath/subject based, not morals and ethics based.

>>94814247
>>94814233
>Listening to Gygax on matters of morality.
Aha! You've fallen victim to one of the classic /tg/ blunders!
The first of course is never comment or post in a skub thread. But the second, being never go by Gary Gygax's word when the subject of social conduct is on the line!
AHAHA! AHAHAHA! AHAHAHAHAHA!

>>94814247
>Paladins are not stupid, and in general there is no rule of Lawful Good against killing enemies. The old adage about nits making lice applie

File: io72wgvf1f921.png (217 KB, 700x460)

217 KB PNG

>>94814298
>>94814314
I like Gary Gygax and I sort of understand what he was trying to say as it pertained to chaotic evil races in d&d. However I think he went a little too far. He also isn't really saying much beyond some quotes that can be misconstrued in multiple ways. He also contradicts himself with his own reasoning.

I still doubt he supported murdering innocent children as a lawful good act. But if he did then he was just wrong, simple as that. Not so surprising considering his description of other alignments are confused and make no sense. .

>>94780112
Prince Phillip (Sleeping Beauty), Aragorn, and Samurai Jack.

>>94814906
>Prince Phillip
Isn't he just a side character?

>>94815577
Yes, and? Who says Paladins have to be the main character?

>>94816119
Paladins probably.

>>94815577
Not at all, he's the secondary protagonist. The Complete Paladin's Handbook from 2e actually names him as an example of how to roleplay a paladin.

>>94816147
That's not very humble of them.

File: reddit-soylent.mp4 (184 KB, 498x498)

184 KB MP4

>>94784086
>>94784055
>>94788729
>>94794573
>>94794793
>>94798131
>>94798382
>>94812356
holy fucking 5Efag
>waaah paladin won't let me have fun
>he's evil for wanting evil things to die, if you kill your enemies they win!
>he should be cleric-lite for some fucking reason

File: 1717358976507697.png (69 KB, 355x262)

69 KB PNG

>>94794546
The goblin baby scenario comes up in the NWN vidya. Mischa, one of the companions, is a sheltered Mystic Fire Knight (paladin of Mystra, think pali who subs smites, heals, and some clerical spells/abilities for arcane spells and armored casting) and protests against rescuing goblin children. Note that if she let them die, she'd have fallen.

File: Rorschach_in_the_window.png (444 KB, 594x491)

444 KB PNG

>>94780112
Rorschach. Whatever your opinion about his spoken ideals, ultimately he wants truth, justice, and freedom for all, and is fearless even in the face of death to achieve those aims.

File: 1618016528229.webm (340 KB, 506x284)

340 KB WEBM

>>94779851

>>94779851
Yes, all paladins are good and nice people. If anyone has a paladin do anything morally grey, such as killing surrendering enemies because they're evil, that paladin is going to DnD hell. Even moreso, the responsible player is also going to hell in real life, which is real and worse than you could imagine.

>>94798100
And Gygax was both Evil, and Stupid. He constantly tried to cheat his friends and coworkers out of what they were owed for their contributions to the creation of DND, and he constantly mismanaged his product and brand.

>>94816993
Lmao, no.
>I refuse to lie, even if saying the truth will kill billions of people.
Rorschach is a villain.

>>94818874
>billions died anyways
>WW3 is ramping up anyways

>>94816967
She not someone you can take as your henchmen. I guess it was decided she not ready to go out into the world.

>>94816993
Vengeance Paladin

>>94818874
Lying is evil.

>>94822386
Lying is chaotic, not evil.

>>94822386
>>94823306
>>94822386
>>94823306
Lying is not good or evil or chaotic. It all depends on what the lie is.

>>94823729
Paladins are based on a Catholic conception of holy knights. Under Catholic Doctrine, lying for any reason, any time, under any circumstance is a sin. The truth is sacred, and worth dying for, or letting others die for.

File: Knight Question.jpg (3.88 MB, 4320x4320)

3.88 MB JPG

Why does nobody roleplay paladins as easy going, likable, and compassionate/understanding? Somebody who is Lawful Good because they're idealistic and genuinely like people/helping people. Somebody who inspires others towards goodness.

>>94832179
Because that's the Cleric's role.

File: 1728949812304657.jpg (26 KB, 370x386)

26 KB JPG

>>94832680
Clerics are like the opposite of easy going and worldly.

>>94779851
If by "nice" you mean well-mannered, then probably not. While most models for paladins would be aristocratic knights like Ser Gawain and Galahad, I think it would be ridiculous if the kind of manners that only aristocrats would develop were a requirement.
It's more important to think about whether the paladin is good. Does he protect the weak or give to the poor? Does he seek to uphold justice and righteousness for all? A gruff, ill-mannered person who does those things is a better candidate for a paladin than a nobleman who speaks nicely but does little.

Would Judge Dredd be considered a paladin?

>>94832987
You've clearly never met the beer monks

>>94833653
No, he's a pretty clear lawful neutral.