>Martials are good at the early levels!...Until you discover Sleep and Color Spray.
>>94788998GREASE
- which is best taken advantage of by martials
>>94789002Yes?
>>94788998yeah sure, and after are you going to stab them to death after with your D4 dagger? or shall i bring in the 2D6+13 GWM greatsword?
>>94789399Achieve your objectives in the area and then leave.
>>94788998My male human fighter casts rape
>>94788998>calling warriors "martials"Is there a bigger red flag on /tg/?
>>94789564You're right, Monks are the only class worth calling a Martial Artist. I propose we change the name of Fighter/Warrior/Champion/et al to Sword Retard
>martials are le bad!Until you finish high school and can play gurps, anima and WHFB.
>>94788998Play Shadow of the Demon Lord, an objectively superior entry level skills-lite d20 tabletop with an official setting nobody gives a shit (heh) about and just homebrews over.
>>94788998So what makes Sleep and Color Spray not appropriate for war?
you're not supposed to do infighting
>>94788998>...Until you discover Sleep and Color Spray.Sleep puts 5d8 hp worth of creatures asleep, an average of 22.5 hp. CR 1 creatures outside of this average include but are not limited to:>Brown bear>Bugbear>Death dog>Dire wolf>Duergar>Giant eagle>Giant hyena>Giant octopus>Giant spider>Giant toad>Harpy>Lion>Spy>TigerIn addition, spell expressly does not work on Undead or creatures immune to Charm, so it additionally is useless against the following CR 1 monsters among others:>Animated Armor>Ghoul>Specter>Swarm of Quippers
>>94788998>Color SprayIn addition to many of the creatures listed here, >>94790305, being outside of its 33 hp (6d10) average, all it does is impose the Blinded condition, and further it is limited in range to 15 feet. In order to affect a creature, a mage must already be close enough that something has likely gone very wrong, and his low-AC ass is likely about to have a bad day regardless since even a blinded creature (who has disadvantage) will still be able to hit him more often than not.
>>94789578This made me laugh more than it should have
What makes Sleep and Color Spray not appropriate for war?
>>94790305>>94790323I'm guessing he meant previous editions given how genuinely dogshit it is in 5e in comparison to the retardedly good early game spell it is in ad&d/3.0/3.5
Crazy how he needed to post a thread, but doesn't want to discuss its topic.
>>94789987>shadow of the poopoopeepee lord
>>94790323Color Spray is absurdly good in 3.PF
>>94789399>taking pride in being a quicker janitor
>>94789399Crossbow or cantrip.
>>94788998Color spray only stuns 4d12 hp worth of dudes. Four level 1 orcs if you're lucky. Absolute tripe as far as spells go. My level one fighter had more HP than that.
>>947936723.5 version's a knockout on anything with 2hd or fewer. Degrading to a blind+stun then just a stun.You still need a martial to finish them though.
>>94793908Ok well we aren't playing 3.5, we're playing 5th
>>94788998>guns are good ....until you discover grenades!why dont soldiers just use grenades all the time instead of guns? seems like a no-brainer
>>94788998If only there was an edition that fixed this problem....
>>94789004Nah. Elven wizards get longsword proficiency.
>>94790323>low-ACBut we're not talking about pathfinder and never will be.
>>94794042but they do use guns instead of bow and arrow
>>94795599
>>94795406Elves deal less damage with longswords than martials deal with fists.
>>94789987It's still a D&D game. D20s are cancer and all systems that use them are the same flavor of dogshit.
>>94795678can you list some good games?
>EXPLOSION!Correct. This is the low level mage experience with powerful spells that they can only use once or twice a day.
>>94795635Math is objective and doesn't care about your hurt feelings.
>>94795905Right back at you.
>>94795905He's probably right, though. Unless you got high stats all around, your wizard probably has about 10 str, whereas a decent martial will have 18+ (from midlevels on, anyway). 1d8+1, let's say, if you have a +1 swordvs1d4+4 or higher (assuming improved unarmed strike or a spiked gauntlet)an average of 5.5 vs 6.5 at least
>>94795942>assuming improved unarmed strikewhy would you assume this>spiked gauntletnot a fist
>>94795947anything to not admit being wrong, eh
>>94795942Hell, if you're going mid levels then a level 6 fighter deals more damage unarmed than a wizard does with cantrips and they don't even need an improved unarmed strike to do it.12 (6x2) vs 11 (2d10)More accurate as well.
>>94795697RWBY unofficial TTRPG, fuck the source material but mechanically it's great.LANCER, again fuck the devs and their commie bullshit, but mechanically the system is pretty good.West End Games' D6 star wars, the best star wars game. No d20s, no proprietary dice, just d6s. Only works well for short games, but is really good for those games.Prowlers and Paragons, aka the best Supers system out there.Almost anything I've made for my own tastes, obviously.GURPS is a meme answer because it's more of a toolkit than a proper TTRPG, but you can get good stuff out of even basic GURPS.
>>94796225>RWBY unofficial TTRPG"rule of cool" anime shit>Lancerthats mechas in space>star warsagain>supersbruhI want knights and wizards and goblins and dragons
>>94795961Talking to yourself again? An unarmed fighter with 18 strength (not a guaranteed thing, especially in DEXfag Edition) would do 5 damage flat. Making up the swordmage having shit stats to skew the comparison still means 5.5 average is better than 5 flat. Then there's melee cantrips, or the elf wizard having a build that actually complements his own gimmick and then it goes right out the window. It was a stupid piece of hyperbole. Hell, a level 1 wizard can start the game with half-plate armor and be a frontliner. This is even more true in 4e (the good edition) but at least Fighters have the benefit there of actually being better at fighting than the other classes and 3.x all splats has lowbie wizards being uncontestable gods and you're a scrub if you take fighter levels at all.
>>94796340oh, you're talking shit editionnvm then; enjoy your slop
>>94788998>Martials are bad at the early levels!...Until you discover Enlarge Person and Barkskin
>>94796519you'd be better off casting those on the cleric
>>947939495thGarbage no person with self respect would touch.
Still wondering what makes Sleep and Color Spray not appropriate for war.
>>94790233What are you talking about?
>>94793908>You still need a martial to finish them though.Not necessarily, I guess hitting them with a D10 weapon is better than a d4, but the poor sap's still rolling fort against 10+Damage Dealt, which might be 2x because it's a crit, I forgot how they worked 2000 was a quarter century ago.
>>94798536>>94790421Oh, that's easy. It's because the effect is capped in efficacy. Also it needs to be followed up on.Like, assuming the targets are tightly packed, Burning Hands could hit 6-ish tiles for a max of 108 damage while Sleep affects 40HP worth of targets max no matter how many targets there are.
>>94801154Then Burning Hands would be martial, right? But there's always a seperate between "martials" and casters, despite the supposed "martials" not having access to Burning Hands, or any other spell.And, if efficacy is what determines whether or not something is appropriate for war, all those 1D8 arming swords and 1D12 great axes that only hit single targets shouldn't be appropriate for war at all.
>>94801682I mean, any 8 Int Fighter can learn to cast Burning Hands or Sleep at level 3 but they won't because of how weak it is by that point. Preferring the likes of Shield, Absorb Elements and Longstrider.But sure, they'd probably be better served with Burning Hands if they were facing many tightly packed enemies with low HP.
>the "default" edition is now 5e>the majority of D&D discussion is now about 5e>the majority of tRPG players in the world play 5eJust nuke the planet at this point.
>>94788998eyedrops counter sleepred-green color blindness counters color spray
>>94788998stop playing dungeons and dragons
>>94789399As if it matters if you cut a sleeping man's throat with a shiv or a katana. Dead is dead, anon.
>>94806419most of them are new to the "hobby" so its not like that really matters
In D&D Basic, monsters that were put to sleep by the Sleep spell could be killed in a single attack as they were couldn't put up any resistance. I think that's pretty cool. The thief hears monsters in a room behind a door, the fighter kicks the door down, the magic-user casts Sleep and then everyone, including the cleric, gets to slit some throats and crack some skulls. That's awesome, I like when the party gets to cooperate like that. I really like Basic, I'm looking forward to running it soon.
>>94807128in 3.5 they can all coup-de-grace sleeping enemies for a guaranteed hit, guaranteed crit, and they have to make a fort save vs the damage or die (if they weren't already dead from the damage)so say your 8 str mage with a quarterstaff coup-de-graces a sleeping goblinhe auto hits, does 2d6-2 damage (an average of 5), and the goblin must make a DC 15 fort save (10 + damage) or diea typical goblin warrior has 5 hp, so even without the save, its at 0 and thus staggered, not to mention prone from being asleep; theres very little chance it can stand up and fight without dying
Yeah, but I find it weird that <most powerful person in your preferred setting> can be slain because someone succeeded a stealth check.
wait you have DM's that don't have enemies dogpile your wizard casting a 1-round spell? they can literally see your squishy wizard is charging up something big when they're casting sleep
>>94808035Is that really so weird? I mean that's how it works in real life as well.
>>94808061In a high HP game? Yeah, it is weird. A drop in mechanical verisimilitude. Doesn't matter if you think HP represents Meat points or Luck points they should both stop you from dying so easily.
>>94808052if they start far enough away it doesn't matter
>>94807208That's why your Wizards keep a pick or a scythe on them.
>>94806419That's not Braunschweig. Or Oberstein, or Reinhard.
>>94795623looks like she missed the bump actually
weird how no one ever runs into magic resistance in these threads
>>94796225Bro. Lancer is ass mechanically, what are you talking about.
>>94808515no it's Reuental
>>94795947anon, moving the goal posts!
>>94793949>5thGood news!The caster IS a martial
>>94809718>unarmed>has to use a weaponok retard
>>94809888
>>94789987>Shadow of the Demon Lordauthor had good inklings for certain thing but then decided to go nowhere with them
>>94796368NTA, but this is a meme response. It doesn't help your argument.
>>94796225so you care only about mechanics, not about setting and flavour?
>>94809650I know damned well who it is! He's not known for orbital nuclear strikes!
>>94807208>3.5Class: WizardRace: Half-Elf (immune to sleep)Level: 1Intelligence: 12 or higherStrength: 10 or higherSpells prepared: Sleep, Sleep1st Level Feat: Martial Weapon Proficiency (Greatsword)Step 1: Cast sleep on a 4HD enemy goblinStep 2: Goblin fails save, falls asleepStep 3: Coup de grace the goblin, average damage is 14 (4d6), Fort save if it mattered is 24. DC increases on a range of 2 to 12 based on strength bonus.
>>94815881scythe would be far better for coupdegraces
>>94815922true and fair
>>94815881You don't need proficiency for a coup de grace. Auto hits.
>>94795635>>94789004>>94789399you can just execute sleeping people with any bladed weapon bakas>>94806461see
>>94816144Okay so Scythe instead of Greatsword, and maybe Spell Focus instead. But yeah DC 30 Fort Save at level 1 assuming 10 strength
>>94793949No we fucking aren't.
>>94796225didn't the devs of Lancer just rip out the combat systems from that game and implemented them into a completely different game that except for combat was nothing like Lancer?
Can't the caster just use Inflict Wounds or something for an instant 6d10 crit that will piss all over a 2d6+3 Fighter?
>>94820733inflict wounds is 2d10 and has a con save
