https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9rF6O9ZiTEwOwsDRQR-UoCQZj6CZvqVEsI-ST1Pwck/edit (no, it is not going to dox you; you appear as anonymous to others)I think that the overall chassis, framework, and core mechanics are fantastic: easily some of the best I have ever seen in an RPG with grid-based tactical combat. I appreciate the workday pacing, the initiative mechanic, the activated faction abilities, the reduced importance of attack roll dice luck, the inter-class balance, the inter-class balance, the interesting enemy teams, and the noncombat challenges: in their broad, broad strokes.However, after having Directed the game from 1st level to max level, I think that the finer details could use plenty of polish. My experience was very rough and turbulent. It was rather fiddly and annoying to keep track of all of the collision damage flying around. My player and I have both played and DMed D&D 4e up to level 30, and have both played and GMed Pathfinder 2e and the Starfinder 2e playtest up to 20th level, so we are experienced with grid-based tactical combat.Direct quote from the player: "I don't think any other game has asked me to do this much math in a single turn." It was a lot of collision damage, and I mean a lot.PC power levels can also get out of hand. Even with the game's various infinite loops strictly barred off, I saw a level 7 party with 0 Victories one-round an extreme-difficulty encounter against EV 145 (including a stability 6 omen dragon) before any enemies could act, thanks to Seize the Initiative, This Is What We Planned For!, Flashback, Gravitic Disruption, Dynamic Power, Armed and Dangerous, the Thundering weapon, the Deadweight, and the Bloody Hand Wraps. Later, at level 10, with 0 Victories and a ceiling to bar off the Deadweight, they wiped out EV 250 (including Ajax and his damage immunity 5 and negative Stamina) during the first round with three PC turns still unused.You can read more in the link at the top.Yes, I took the surveys.
>>94797262It's good to see people here playing games.
>>94797476Yes, there are links to the level-by-level playthroughs in the document. Thank you for having a look at them.It was very rough and difficult to keep track of, mostly because there was so much collision damage flying around. From level 7 onwards, I was essentially no longer playing the game any more as the Director, because PCs were instantly blitzing down the enemy side with mountains upon mountains of collision damage.I think that Draw Steel! has strong potential. In an earlier stream, they appear to have recognized that Draw Steel! is probably the single most forced-movement-focused tabletop RPG in the entire market. I have to agree; at level 10, I saw an NPC get slid from one corner of a 100×100-square map to the opposite corner, all during a single PC's turn (or, well, two turns, given the extra turn from Kuran'zoi Prismscale):https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OUngfFKV7CH1gYfuQhs3nDNq-rRaw-cOPXS3ZJE20c/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.anpgquzg005mI earnestly have faith that the writers can smooth out its metaphorical rough edges and capitalize on its top-notch core mechanics.
Update: I actually got a response from Geoff, general manager of MCDM.>I might suggest that you consider making your own fork of Draw Steel using the open license. A brief look at at your documents it's pretty clear that you have your own tastes and opinions about game balance and goals and making your own home-brew version of the rules would be the best way to have the level of control you appear to seek.
>>94797262>the inter-class balance, the inter-class balanceYou really like the inter-class balance huh?>I don't think any other game has asked me to do this much math in a single turnThat's funny considering that (if I'm not crazy) one of the stated goals was to not have tons of math during combat.>>94797846So they just dismissed the criticism wholesale?That's disheartening considering the potential.They could at least have reasoned why things are fine as is and you should homebrew your own shit instead of just going "it's pretty clear that you have your own tastes and opinions about game balance".Weird.
>>94797923On one hand, it does sound kinda disheartening and the manager does sound like he's trying to hide how assmad he is about the criticism by using PR speak. On the other hand, the open license does sound like an opportunity for /tg/ to get shit done. If getting shit done is something that still happens anyway, but OP seems to have done his homework so maybe something could come out of this.
>>94797846>just fix what you don't like yourself! I see they're taking the WotC approach on this one.
>>94798097Fixing your crunch requires work, numeracy, and game design chops - something that is lacking in the RPG side of things, compared to vidya and board games.
>>94797923>That's funny considering that (if I'm not crazy) one of the stated goals was to not have tons of math during combat.In theory, Draw Steel! has little in-combat math.In practice, here is a simple example of what a forced movement collision with Gravitic Disruption might look like at level 1:https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z9rF6O9ZiTEwOwsDRQR-UoCQZj6CZvqVEsI-ST1Pwck/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.wie9g21cgddThis is pinball, pachinko, whatever you want to call it. And this is assuming that the infinite loop is barred off.
>>94797846>just fork it like some dogshit linux program broHaha shit i was thinking these were shill threads but i guess not because clearly this game is going to be a wreck
>>94798348I disagree, video games just adjust by x percent and balance by statistics, you cant take 5% off a D6 resolution mechanic. Ttrpg game design needs to be secondary to optimization for playability or your game will just never be played
>>94799166You need to find people that can think about second order effects, which obviously was not done here. However, people that are good at that cost too much money to bring on as consultants for TTRPG ghetto and they still get it wrong sometimes.Their response speaks to a lack of game design. How do you stop infinites? With core mechanisms - manifesting in vidya with various diminishing return mechanics like progressive gravity in airdashers, and get-out-of-jail buttons like Bursts and Parries. That these issues made it this far just speaks to the TTRPG side of game design's willful ignorance.
>>94799152>2hu>shillNah, he's just a giga autist. He does this with every playtest he's part of.
Matt Colville dislikes the feedback too, unfortunately.
>>94800867>outside the dev communityI bet the people he's getting these high effort replies from have made three more than three times as many full games as he has
>>94799935>>2huSomehow I didn't even notice the pics that op was posting.Considering pictures like >>94797846 and >>94797262 , now I'm sure OP is the one in the wrong.
>>94797846lol he sounds fucking ass mad. Makes me think this is gonna flop
>>94800867>>94800888this is just pure salt that people aren't sucking his system off as the end all and be all of roleplaying.
I just hate this game after it was promoted for a long fucking time while not even having a name yet.
>>94797846>>94800867Jesus fucking Christ. How far up your own ass do you have to be to respond to your players like this?
>>94800867Bros, I'm starting to think his game design credentials are a bit exaggerated like that weaselfucker voicechanger guy.
>>94797846I mean are you really surprised? You're operating on a level of autism most players aren't capable of imagining, especially considering that the target audience is beer-and-pretzels storygamers that are confused by 5e.
>>94798335Most people aren't going to hyperoptimize like 2hu.
>>94797846Honestly I will say it's pretty disappointing to get such a limited response to your very detailed feedback. However you have made me interested in this game where no other press has.
>>94800919No, I do not think it is going to flop. I think it is going to be very successful by non-5e RPG standards.I think it is impossible for Draw Steel! to fail at capturing a large audience, simply because the preexisting MCDM audience is exceedingly loyal and eager to support MCDM.The preexisting MCDM audience consists chiefly of D&D 5e players and "dissatisfied with 5e and specifically looking for an alternative to 5e" players, so the audience's benchmarks for game balance are not that hard to clear.I think that Draw Steel! is guaranteed to have a diehard, sizable following (for an RPG that is not 5e, anyway).I still have genuine faith that the writers can polish up their game before the final release, though.
>>94801040>I still have genuine faith that the writers can polish up their game before the final release, though.Given that their response to you pointing out legitimate issues with it was to tell you to go fuck yourself, I think your faith is misplaced.
>>94797846Based, he must have a powerful sperg radar.
>>94800867>outside the dev community>useful testing"Useful" testing, or structured testing which I assume he is referring to, is done by the QA\tester team; not by customers and volunteer audiences. Tossing it to the masses means you get the masses' voice, it is by its very nature not meant to be structured. But I suppose I wouldn't know as I am not a member of this "dev community" which I assume I wouldn't know, because she lives in Canada.Unless this comment is in response to something wildly out of line and I'm swinging at windmills, he seems kinda like an ass when faced with critical feedback. If he handed out forms with 1-5 agree\disagree and he just got "Needs more minigames" written on it I'd get it, but otherwise why shit on the people who are passionate about your work? It's so easy to respond with "Thanks for the feedback!" to dribbling responses, and just ignore their actual feedback if it's dogshit. I like the guy generally, no clue why he'd act so dismissively when his whole shtick is that everyone's voice matters.
>>94801545>no clue why he'd act so dismissivelyBecause he's afraid of people expecting him to put actual work into the product they prepaid for.
>>94797262How does the initiative work, Edna?>>94797846BTFO
>>94802417>How does the initiative work, Edna?Alternating, nominative initiative, much like Lancer or ICON. However, certain abilities can make PCs jump ahead in line, such as the shadow's Hesitation Is Weakness or tactician's This Is What We Planned For!A talent can use their Flashback ability to replicate This Is What We Planned For! to allow allow a five-PC party to act ahead of the enemy side. This is happening at level 1, incidentally.
>>94802491Can you explain what nominative initiative means for people who have never played any of these games and/or are stupid
>>9480261850/50 chance of the PC side going first, or the enemy side going first. Whenever a side activates, it nominates one unit who has yet to act this round. That unit acts. Then, the other side activates and nominates one unit who has yet to act this round. Rinse and repeat until the round is over.Draw Steel!'s NPCs and monsters are sometimes clustered together into "initiative groups" who are considered to be a single unit for initiative purposes.
Hey wait I haven't finished reading the starfinder write up yet, how long until you play cosmere
>>94797846>Just fix the balance issues yourself, bro.Why should anyone pay for such "product"?
>>94797262>It was rather fiddly and annoying to keep track of all of the collision damage flying around.>Direct quote from the player: "I don't think any other game has asked me to do this much math in a single turn." It was a lot of collision damage, and I mean a lot.Yeah, that sure sounds overly complicated. I wonder how MCDM's gonna deal with->Oh, by the way, the party was 80% hakan for extra forced movement, and I had one single player running all five charactershttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q9RAZxNdCk8
>>94803447people pay for 5ea product doesn't need to be good for people to pay for it
>>94804574And those retards already have their containment game and won't buy anything without "5e compatible" stamp.
>>94804696of course everyone who plays 5e is a retardbut people who don't play 5e can also be retarded
>>948045282hu tism strikes again
>>94801020No, but a good chunk of the playerbase has been trained for the last twenty-five years to hyperoptimize. A company is of course in their right to say they don't want that audience, but it's a part of the market they're actively abandoning and it's a part of the market that buys a lot of stuff and plays regularly.
>>94804528>>94807297I have GMed Pathfinder 2e and Starfinder 2e for this same player, though, all the way up to 20th level. They were controlling four 20th-level PCs simultaneously.This player still found Draw Steel! and its collision damage to be significantly more of a hassle.Look at the level 10 null's first turn here, for example:https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OUngfFKV7CH1gYfuQhs3nDNq-rRaw-cOPXS3ZJE20c/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.u725rc33e814
>>94800972How far up your own ass do you have to be in order to think that you deserve a higher-effort response?
>>94809829I think you guys should reexamine your life choices.
>>94800867What the fuck does this fat retard think a playtest entails? I shant be paying for this game
>>94810807Public playtests are just marketing campaigns. Very little will change between this and the full release.
>>94811870He shouldn't have released a full demo so he could hide behind the lie that the full product will have more in that case. Colvilles not entitled to my money, my apologies to all the kickstarter players waiting on this waste of space.
>>94810331Not very far, if the game is in a public playtest. If you aren't open to engaging with test data supplied by players, don't hold a playtest. That's the door you choose to open when you go that route.
>>94797262>I think that the overall chassis, framework, and core mechanics are fantastic: easily some of the best I have ever seen in an RPG with grid-based tactical combat.>level 1 infinite loops
>my player and iThis invalidates most of your playtesting data, because most ttrpgs aren't designed for 1 player.>>94800867He is correct in this instance.
>>94809829why posting that stupid ass pic that has zero connection to ttrpgs?
>>94809829Yeah, I gotta say, as problematic as the way the devs respond to criticism is, it's still a bit much to expect them to prioritize the issues you're having when it's not very likely the average player is going to use the game the way you and your friend do.
>>94813358What stops a group from playing those characters with different players, though? That seems like such a minor component of the matter at hand.
>>94813285Welcome, newfriendCan't believe I'm saying that, I joined at the start of the decade
>>94813404Same thing that stops 5e from having all-coffeelock parties
>>94813611>utter newfag calling me a newfaglmao, I've been in this shithole since 2007
>>94813903Uhuh, and you've just never run into 2hu before
>>94814641of course I know what those shitty characters are, still no reason to spam them here.Their faces, environment, expressions and so on have no relation to the posts, they don't even have relevant texts.OP is just spamming them.
>>94815227Demotivation post by newfaggots who don't understand what an avatarfag is
>>94797923>>94798097>>94798335At the beginning of the playtest document there's a paragraph that says something like>This game has been designed to do one thing, with only two or three supported tones. While we're very interested in feedback about if we did this well, we aren't interested in feedback about whether or not that one thing is a retarded thing to make a game around. That's just you wanting us to make an entire different game
>>94799152They've said a couple times they hope to do something like 3.5 where other full games are spun out of the central mechanics like D20 modern or Mutants and Masterminds
>>94800867>>94800888>>94800936Years before this game came out coleville did a video on play testing in video games and said something like>Something people learn during play testing sometimes is that a game never should have been made to begin with. What you need to understand is that by the time you're playtesting something it's too late for that kind of feedback - the design is by definition past the point of no return if they're already playtesting it. The ONLY thing playtesting is for is figuring out the most efficient way to execute this decision, no matter how shitty you've decided the decision to make Rayman Raving Rabids actually is.He also talked about how as a writer on videogames he'd be handed completely finished cutscenes that didn't have any dialogue, and his job was just to write a script that made everything happening in the cutscenes makes sense, but the one thing you could NEVER EVER do was suggest something in a cutscene was retarded and should be redone.
>>94801122The appropriate response to>Your minivan is not a very good sports carIs absolutely to go>Well no shitRegardless of how factually correct it is that a minivan makes a good sports car.
>>94801545They actually do have a paid playtesting team, I'm assuming the paid playtesters and the backers looking over the playtest packets disagree, and they're choosing to assume the paid QA team is write and random customers are wrong.
>>94803447See>>94804528
>>94811870These aren't even the public play tests, which happened six months ago. This is releasing the post playtest first draft as a preorder reward to backers. The playtest has been over since like August
>>94812394Playtest has been over since August. People in the discord are ass mad because they weren't following the playtest and just got the demo.
>>94815227Nobody cared who he was before he put on the mask
2hu, do you run any games that aren't spergfests? Risus, say, or Savage Worlds for something that's still tactical?
>>94817342why would you ask something you already know the answer to?
>>94821423
>>94816670Then the feedback they’re ignoring is even MORE important. If you want your core system to serve as a base chassis for an untold number of spinoffs, it needs to be airtight.
>>94816755Touhufag's setup is unreasonable, but it's the dev's response that's damning.
>>94816755Do you know why casters were so broken in 3.X? Because the original playtesters only played them according to their existing assumptions, without actually trying to achieve anything with them. They didn't see the cracks in the system because they weren't looking for them. Rejecting playtest data because it doesn't conform to your idea of what a party should look like is setting yourself up for hilarious failure.
>>94815227Wow, you really are new. Amazing. Either that or you've been holed up in one or two generals for the past ten years. Yknow it's not healthy to live in an echo chamber right?
>>94797923It's touhoufag, he's got crippling autism and the guys at MCDM were right to dismiss his demands.
>>94817342That depends on your definition of a "spergfest" game. I am still running PbtA to this day, for example.>>94823971If my player and I see an infinite loop and report back on it, that infinite loop is still in the game, no matter how many players are playing. (Bear in mind that these include level 1, single-ability infinite loops. Gravitic Disruption, for example, is self-looping entirely on its own.)If my player and I see an overly strong individual option and report back on it, that overly strong individual option is still in the game, no matter how many players are playing. ("Hey, if I craft a cheap Deadweight for my character, I can use my Psionic Leap or dragon knight flight to get free attacks on each of my turns...")If my player and I see that a given monster or combat objective does not really work, because the mechanics are simply broken or whatnot, that still applies no matter how many players are playing. ("You know... it is probably easier to just kill all of these monsters, so let us just do that.")
>>94824159Maybe you should've sent it in before the books went to print, then. Ever think about that Autismo Maximo?
>>94824270The latest playtest ran from 21 December 2024 to 13 January 2025, so about ~23 days. Before then, the MCDM team showed only levels 1 to 3 to Patron backers.21 December 2024 was the first time that Patreon backers received the full game.I submitted my playtest feedback at the end of this window, on 13 January, before the designated deadline time.
>>94823971No, an infinite loop is an infinite loop. The fix is a simple as adding a recursion limit to the problematic ability, or a universal ability to break out of forced movement.
>>94824465Part of the issue is how, despite this game having grid-based tactical combat, many abilities are casually worded.>Gravitic Disruption: When a target takes damage, you can slide them 2.This is a level 1 ability. This would be innocuous in, say, D&D 4e... but forced movement into a creature or an obstacle causes collision damage in Draw Steel!, so Gravitic Disruption is an infinite loop all by itself.This is just one of several infinites that my player came across. Even if Gravitic Disruption is patched so that it never triggers itself, it is still very strong due to the sheer number of times that it can trigger in a single turn. It could use a 1/turn limitation.
>>94801122>legitimate issuesit's 2hufag. it's like saying you should adapt casinos to rainman.>>94801545I worked as QA for videogames.My work was opening and closing menus to see if the background music got interupted and shit at that level. Once you're in beta the game is pretty much done. This is a pre-order teaser. The most they'll fix is wording and layout.>>94813016I believe his philosophy is leaving broken stuff in the open for people who want that and trust groups to self police if they want a broken game or not.
>>94813285so people know it's Edna and react acordinglyfor example, knowing that their playtest write up is at ulililia levels and will be ignored.>>94824159I can't imagine how your PbtA games goAre they full precure city destroying anime fights powered by nothing? are they harem tier endless loops of awkward people trying to socialize? Do you adapt to the players? Do you rail road them? where do you rail road them to?
>>94824579You are correct in a strict, literal sense but I don't believe most players would interpret that rulestext in that way. There is an implication there of it being triggered by something that's not itself. RAI, instead of RAW.
>>94821481>it needs to be airtight.No it doesn't, it just needs to be barely functional but popular. See D&D for an example.
>>94825127When we ran Gravitic Disruption, we ruled against it triggering itself. However, Gravitic Disruption was still exceptionally powerful, because it could trigger many, many times in a single turn: each time causing a collision, and each collision triggering Synapse Field.
>>94824579Yeah, adding "once per turn" fixes it and dismissing such an easy solution just because touhoufag found the exploit is simply bad practice when it comes to game design.
>>94824353James confirmed that he saw your survey feedback btw
>>94824579Yeah okay, I've been shitting on you (rightfully so) but that's also plainly retarded for its abuse capabilities. RAI or not, it's messy. It should be "When a player damages a target"
>>94797262Is that you, touhouanon? When did you switch genshin impact? I feel betrayed.
>>94797846Normally I'd say that this is an absolute dogshit tier retard response to give to a playtester, but given that you're 2hufag I'm guessing this was actually fully warranted and asking you to fuck entirely off and make a game yourself was his only sane option.
>>94824610>it's like saying you should adapt casinos to rainman.kek, this>>94824669>where do you rail road them to?why, to hu, of course!
>>94824610>trust groups to self police if they want a broken game or notYou mean if they want to play something t else instead of his slop?
>>94827699You can see they are already walking back their suggestion that the feedback was received here >>94826395Do you get paid to be that retarded or do you do it for free kwab
>>94827759If you send them stuff outside of the survey format they will knee jerk shoot it down. With contempt. It doesn't tell you what James will do to the survey response, he's more open minded than the others.
>>94825127Actually Yugioh card text is bad.
>>94827730Some people like playing broken characters, the animu dream, and it's better to have those options in the open than being technicalites you have to debate over.I'm just guessing tho.
>>94824610>trust groups to self police if they want a broken game or not.What a deal breaker. If I am picking up your system to DM, doing an editorial pass and coming up with house rules to run the system for the first time is a deal breaker - and leaving intentionally broken builds in the game screams "lazy fucking design"
