Why is shadowrun often considered "Lorewise great, but mechanically complex?" Like I have asked a few people who want to play a cyberpunk style game with dnd races and shit, but this is always the response, they are always scared of even touching the system. Rather, they would go through hell and back and make an even more convoluted system for cyberpunky game into dnd/pathfinder or they would want to add magic and races to cyberpunk red/2020(20202 I'd argue is even wackier than most systems with the omninumber targeting and random limb damage).Having played 4th and 5th of shadowrun, I can say that the mechanics of the game isn't that unsounded and is fairly straight forward. Compared to 3.5/pathfinder Frankenstein rules and 5th dnd compounding bonuses that can make a 5th lvl players kill strahd, I feel like Shadowrun (at least 4th and 5th) are fairly grounded. Most excuses I see are primarily that Shadowrun's rules are too complex and convoluted, or that no-one should have 30d6 at chargen(an impossible feat considering I have tried several times to get a character to this "30 die" capabilities only ending with armor being the only one I can munchkin).What makes shadowrun such a scary system for new players?
it's pretty fucking self evident when you read the rules
>>94818931Red the rules, pretty fucking easy to understand.
>>94818938even making a character without chummer is a gigantic pain in the ass you retarded contrarian
>>94818960Not really, I'm sorry you suffer from retardation that simple rules are too much for you to handle.
>>94818919Most people are lazy, stupid, or both. You simply don't play Shadowrun with those people. Don't surround yourself with brainlets.>>94818960Don't assume that your personal set of deficiencies is some kind of universal truth or general phenomenon. That's not healthy and stunts your potential for development.While I do stand by the things I said above, this is obviously a shitty bait thread, and not even a clever one.
>>94818919I haven't played Shadowrun since the 90s but it's not too complicated. To be able to get other people into a system, do a couple things:- Prepare or copy a quick-rules that's max 2 pages- Learn the rules well enough to walk your players through character creation, and put tabs in your book so you can flip to any relevant choicesThen walk them through creating characters. Most people will get into it if they don't have to work to do so. So make it easy on them.
I read the 2E Magic rules once. Might as well play AD&D for the same level of complexity but faster gameplay and more fun.
>>94818919Firstly, there's nothing wrong with a game being mechanically complex. It just appeals to different sorts of people. Objectively, there are drastically simpler games than Shadowrun out there. Pic related has given me far better cyberpunk one-shots than any dedicated cyberpunk system.Having said that, from my own experience with 5th edition, it was often a matter of formatting rather than the rules themselves. The book tends to send you on a scavenger hunt whenever you're looking up a rule. Toss a grenade in a room? You need to check page 182-183 to determine where it scatters, then flip to page 435 for the actual stats of the grenades themselves, and then to page 197 to see how much of the surrounding terrain gets destroyed.I'm sure it's possible to eventually pick up on all of these random rules, but it doesn't make for a very enjoyable learning experience unless you already have a GM who is already very familiar with it all in order to keep things running smoothly.
>>94818919The basic mechanic resolution is fun and simple.It's all the other bits where the game becomes bogged down with countless modifiers, rules, exceptions, modes, limits, etc. etc.Sometimes you use one characteristic in a specific situation, but whole other in an almost identical situation. You usually use spell's force rating except in this scenario where the caster's Magic stat is used because... there's no reason why, it just does, and you add it to ever increasing list of exceptions you need to remember.Hacking — which is already infamous in cyberpunk games for being a whole another minigame inaccessible to to non-hackers — uses two different systems because the devs wanted "internet magic" but without calling it "Magic", so there's now Resonance and Sprites and whatever that act exactly like Magic and Spirits... except for another few exceptions which the GM has to remember.I've played CP2020, CPRED, PF2e, CoC, WHRPG 2e, Dark Heresy 1e and in all of those systems character creation was straight-forward if sometimes time-consuming. Sometimes I noticed I had less money or Agility than needed for a cool weapon so I went back and corrected that one thing, but it's incidental.Creating a character in Shadowrun is -constant- page flipping back and forth because the choices you make at step 4 influence not only those at step 5, but also step 1 and 3 and you need to calculate all of that.Pregen chars help here, but that's true for almost all systems.>an even more convoluted system for cyberpunky game into dndKeep in mind that for a D&D 5e player, a hack of D&D 5e is easier to work with than whole another system even if objectively speaking the abomination that comes from trying to fit dnd peg in cyberpunk hole is more complex than Shadowrun.
>>94818919I wanted to play shadowrun, but one time the guy from my party that wanted to gm it offered to do an one shoot he mailed us a dozen of rulebooks. Ive tried to read through them, but got a bit disinterested at 2nd. Later on he forbid me and some other guy for playing certain classes because it was to hard to graps for him for 1st session. When the gameday came he had a tantrum because we didnt read through all the books and didnt know fully how to play it and guess what, he apparently didnt knew much eithier, because he skimmed through most of the books and half assed all adventures.I recon if youll have capable gm that can show you how the game is played than its a nice expirience.
>>94818919>Lorewise greatit sucks
>Live long enough to see public opinion on dnd4e turn completely around>Live long enough to see post-market dominance mtg get a serious competitor>Live long enough to see Cyberpunk get a video game adaptationBut I've done-seen about everything, when I see Shadowrun get contrarians saying it is actually very simple and easy to play, suitable for beginners.
>>94820680There's a good explanation right here.
>>94820800>>Live long enough to see public opinion on dnd4e turn completely aroundNah, that's just 4chan contrarianism. If you talk to people out in the real world they still treat 4e like the stinking turd it is.
>>94821488Obviously it's online-only, and obviously you're right that 4e is shit, but the new generation of netizens are hard at work rewriting history and they have decided shit is gold and great is overrated. It was bound to happen.
>>94820800it's very fun to run with beginners if you want your coworkers to stop pestering you about tabletop rpgs
>>94818919Even if the core mechanics are simple, the actual steps you need to figure out what do to do are layered, fiddly, and filled with exceptions and edge cases.Hands down one of the most painful systems to play, of the games that people at least pretend to play.
>>94818919It's not mechanically complex. It's just explained very terribly. I had to basically rewrite the rules from scratch based on rules Q&A's found online in order to have anything make any sense. Because so many things in the rules are left too vague or even contradict themselves.
>>94821488>If you talk to people out in the real worldlol
It makes excellent CRPGs and a bad tabletop experience. I've tried and tried. Apparently the Germans can do it but I don't speak German and also they seem like a very unfriendly bunch to my smooth American brain.
>>94821608>>94821488Triggered by the other thread, huh. Weird that you have PTSD from posting.
Oh good, a shadowrun thread, even if it isn't SRG.Can any anon tell me what types of weapons are suited for throwing? Chummer doesn't have a separate category for it.I assume throwing a highland forge claymore or osmium mace is off the table?
>>94818919>What makes shadowrun such a scary system for new players?>>94818938>Red the rules, pretty fucking easy to understand.>>94818972>Not really, I'm sorry you suffer from retardation that simple rules are too much for you to handle.>>94819107>Most people are lazy, stupid, or both. You simply don't play Shadowrun with those people. Don't surround yourself with brainlets.These are exactly the reason why nobody wants to play Shadowrun. What you literal autists fail to understand is that nobody is as smart as you think you are. Go ahead and pat yourself on the back if you're being honest with us in that you're able to read, understand, and remember all the rules of how the later editions of Shadowrun work. Unfortunately, you're not able to grasp that everybody else is having trouble achieving that, so they are turned off to the game. Your attitude of berating other potential players as too stupid to understand the rules CONTRIBUTES to Shadowrun going down the toilet like it did, because compounding the problem of a convoluted rules set is the game being primarily played by intellectual snobs like you. Other games have this same exact issue. And so people just quit before even trying in favor of other games that are easier to grasp in rules and concept.-t. FORMER Shadowrun player and game master who played since 1st edition.
>>94818919I wish shadowrun and iron kingdoms got more multi-media stuff, truly fascinating settings
>>94820029>>94812263>faggot is ritual posting this now in ever thread he doesnt likeholy kek and I thought op was supposed to be the one with Autism
>>94827242>people just quit before even trying in favor of other games that are easier to grasp in rules and concept.Power words over here. If people who played complicated games learned to say "Oh, it's difficult, but it's worth it." they might finally get someone to play with. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to figure something out and having the person whose the most experienced and motivated to play just repeat over and over that it's actually super easy instead of helping. Out of all the tricks the devil played on autists, it was the inability to empathise that was the cruellest one.
>>94827242>>94828149wisdom
>>94827242>>94828149Shadowrun isn't even remotely difficult in any fucking universe lmao wtf am I reading>If people who played complicated games learned to say "Oh, it's difficult, but it's worth it." they might finally get someone to play with.One thing that we can all agree is that it isn't worth it. There isn't an edition of shadowrun that isn't a terrible game, mechanically.Writing's bad too but that's a different issue and not universal.
>>94818919The biggest problem with shadowrun is the rulebook layout is fucking dogshit and finding the rules you need is a pain. In the 4e version of the rulebook the editing was so awful that it would sometimes reference a page in the text and if you go to said page it would be something completely different.Also the magic rules ARE convoluted, especially summoning spirits.
>>94818919i think its easy to play but running it RAW is hard because you have 3 planes of awareness you have to keep track of as a GM. I used to make a general for the game and added some login stuff to really sell the game and I think it worked for a while.
>>94818919German detected
>dude it's easy, just roll your pool vs their poolPeople say this about every shit system to ignore how character gen requires looking through 10 books to be able to walk across the street and more complex mechanics require you to present a case as to which interpretation is legal.>>94825877>Apparently the Germans can do it but I don't speak German and also they seem like a very unfriendly bunch to my smooth American brain.That's just a meme, the German edition doesn't fix most of SR's problems.
>>94827242>Your attitude of berating other potential players as too stupid to understand the rules CONTRIBUTES to Shadowrun going down the toilet like it didWrong. What actually happened was that brainlets constantly bitched and moaned about SR being too complex (instead of just finding a game which better suited their needs and expectations), which led to another gaggle of brainlets at CGL attempting to dumb it down. They failed, badly, so now 6e's combining the worst of both worlds and ended up irrevocably shitty - it's still not appealing enough to brainlets, but also fucked up beyond repair for actual SR players.>they are turned off to the game>people just quit before even trying in favor of other games that are easier to grasp in rules and conceptAnd that's perfectly fine. No game is for everyone. I won't deride a low-complexity ultra-rules-light narrative game for what it is and what is wants to do, but I can see and say that it's not for me, and isn't meant to be in the first place. And that's fine.>you're able to read, understand, and remember all the rules of how the later editions of Shadowrun workThis is not as big of a feat as you make it out to be, and 5e isn't really that much more complex than 3e was. Now, whether you like stuff like that or not, that is the question that actually matters.>>94828149There's a huge difference between being a real potential player (who will indeed receive help if necessary) and being some digital rando on a basket weaving forum proclaiming that shit's just too hard for anyone and can't be done ever, which is patently untrue.It's a complex system, but whether it's worth it for you is entirely subjective. And if you're really actually honest-to-god having serious problems understanding it, chances are it's just not your thing, and will not be worth it for you.
>>94828513>most of SR's problemsWhich are, in your opinion?
>>94828753Probably something to do with how character gen requires looking through 10 books to be able to walk across the street and more complex mechanics require you to present a case as to which interpretation is legal.
>>94827061>I assume throwing a highland forge claymore or osmium mace is off the table?Well, if your strength is high enough...I'm sure any reasonable GM would agree that the stats or a "survival knife" on SR5 423 would suffice for actual throwing knives or shuriken. it also has a little blurb about throwing weapons on that page.>wireless throwing knivesThere's rules for it!You can even throw arrows and grenades!
>>94829792In better systems it would be a ranged weapon attack made with weapons possessing a specific tag, or all things can be thrown by default and some things have a gutchecked difficulty penalty or even — heaven forbid! — there's a table whenever the rules mention throwing a weapon. The game is designed badly and they don't have enough money to hire anyone who can untangle their spaghetti and make readable books.
In fifth edition they introduced limits.They noticed that in fourth edition players could optimise their characters to roll ridiculous amounts of dice and thus trivialise any challenge presented.Instead of fixing their game's maths they introduced three new statistics for the player to keep track of.Those statistics don't do anything interesting, they're only relevant when they nerf your character and prevent cool moments from happening and their sole purpose was to make game designers' "job" easier.This is what kind of game Shadowrun is.I've heard that second edition is actually robust and digestible, so there's that, but good luck finding a group to play it.
>>94830509>I've heard that second edition is actually robust and digestibleI'll vouch for that.>good luck finding a group to play it.Let me vouch for that one, too. :(
>>94829678But none of that is true. I was wondering if he had some actual points, especially in context of Krautrun.
>>94825833I know, big challenge for 4channers.>>94825882?????
>>94829835>weapons possessing a specific tagLike being listed in the 'Projectile and Throwing Weapons' section? Other weapons which are meant to be thrown mention it in their specific blurbs, and for everything else there are rules for improvised weapons.
>>94830509>In fifth edition they introduced limitsThey expanded their scope and generalized or streamlined their application. And you can still focus hard and turn your character into an absolute OTP if you wish to, you just have to consider one additional aspect while min-maxing (usually by simply not dumping certain attributes all the way down because you think you don't need them). In normal play limits do exactly what they're meant to, which is barely anything while not getting into the way.
>>94828743>brainletsNobody cares that you bothered to memorize the location and edge cases for all the random Free +1 to X thingies they spread our throughout the splats.>>94830685What does Hitlerrun actually fix?
>>94818919>but mechanically complex?The midwits you're quoting are confusing mechanical complexity with rules density. Shadowrun is about a mid-complexity game with that designation mostly propped up by the more advanced magic and hacking rules. It's the sheer quantity of rules and options that trips people up.>What makes shadowrun such a scary system for new players?The insane breadth of options at chargen makes character creation a minor nightmare for new players. Even with guidance if they're not half-assing it a new player is probably looking at a chargen time of something like 6 hours. Best solution is to just give them a pregen to play a few runs with to familiarize themselves with the mechanics then come back to making their own character later.
>>94830981>The midwits you're quoting are confusing mechanical complexity with rules density.Rules density adds to complexity.
>>94827242That's not what fucking happened. SR went to shit because noone professional will work for CGL because of their embezzlement and pay fuckery and it resulted in a progressively worse edited and designed game until we got SR6, which none of the established fanbase likes. If CGL wasn't shit SR would have easily held its position somewhere around the 4th or 5th biggest RPG.
>>94830981Can you give an example of what you would consider three high-complexity rpgs, for comparison?
>>94830849So... they either don't do anything except making the player do some tedious bookkeeping OR they turn relevant but only to prevent a big moment.They're either unnecessary or detrimental and could be replaced by the designers doing their job of balancing the game and having good playtests. And to be clear: I don't think they're so horrible that they make the game unfun since they don't matter that much, they're just a blatant example how badly the system has been handled.
I think it's very poorly explained in the books. The changes between editions with people playing various editions doesn't help because you hear snippets of contradictory things, it's as if 5e discussion was mixed with 4e mechanics and the weirdly especific 1e saves
It's antiquated design. Take rolling to hit: first you figure out any range modifiers, situational modifiers, etc you have to your pool, then you roll to hit and the enemy rolls to dodge. Then you roll for damage, and the enemy has to roll to soak, and you have to figure out shit like armor piercing. A single action involves 4 different rolls and a host of modifiers. On its own, this is value neutral, but most people don't want to deal with that pace of game.
>>94818919I want Larian to make a Shadowrun game.
>>94823609>>94828442>>94830582(and anyone who has experience with it)Have you considered making a streamlined lite version with a more intuitive chargen and better structured rules?I've wanted to run shadowrun for over a decade, but midway through whatever edition I try the idea of having to hand hold players through that feels daunting. I've never found a GM that runs it or is willing to give a masterclass.Maybe somebody already made this and it just didn't spread.
>>94818919/tg/ is about 70% faggots repeating memes and things they've heard youtubers say, which was also just them repeating memes.
>>94818919It's simply a matter of>Do I want to learn this gameand the answer is "No".I bought GURPS manuals just to read them. Just to read them, not even to play them. They're entertaining, and their mechanics are fun to poke at. I do that with a lot of RPGs, just to imagine the moving parts.I didn't do that for Shadowrun. I just don't fucking care, any more than I don't care to read the rules for PF2e or whatever they call Dungeons and Dragons these days. I bit the bullet for 5e a while back because it was what my friends wanted to play, but I just can't stomach it any more, so I don't.
