When did it become too late to salvage D&D?
>>94826509When they decided that the DM's ability to rewrite it was an excuse for poor design.
>>94826509When gygax was let go in the 80s. D&D has been retarded ever since
>>94826509>sampleEven the coomer spams are getting extremely low quality, how does this place manage to keep getting worse?
>>94826546I never know if I'm talking to a retarded poser or an actual fossil who longs for the good old days 40 fucking years ago.
When (you) joined.
>>94826671Based newfag who thinks he's an oldfag
I remember listening to some boomer talking about how the game became overrun with children after b/x
>>94826671They're literally all posersNobody who played with gygax ever had anything good to say about him>>94826615>how does this place manage to keep getting worse?You're still somehow managing to suck more dicks than OP, so I feel that you should be the one to answer this question.
>>94826509June 1978.
>>94826509It was actually just yesterday. Woulda been easy before then, but now the ship has sailed.
>>94826509When Wizards of the Coast got ahold of it. Holy fuck, what a shit company.
>>94826509There wasn't a fixed point specifically but if i had to draw a soft line it was immediately after Dave was pushed away in '77-79, a strong line was after Gary was kicked out from TSR with the subsequent satanic panic puritanwashing and, finally, the "chopped with an execution axe" line happened with wotc acquisition. What happened next was just hasbro beating the decomposed carcass of the dead horse that was once tsr d&d.
>>94827662Now post the 2024 pic where the party are all anime girls, except for the one female player playing a gay male tiefling.
>>94827662D&D was always a community driven product, and remains that way to this day, despite TSR/Wizard's best effortsIt's really impossible for them to dictate what D&D is, and the only success those companies have ever had is when they made populist decisions. Trying to pretend that D&D needs to be saved is really a bad joke, because D&D remains far and away the most popular RPG, without even a close 2nd place. If D&D is beyond saving, then all other RPGs are doubly royally fucked.Even 5.5 will likely make money in the short term, despite being a pretty lame product that missed its window by about half a decade. Even despite being pretty lame, it's a solid piece of design built from a strong foundation, and the larger RPG community still really hasn't had any strong impetus to move on from 5e yet. There hasn't been any dramatic paradigm shift in RPGs, no impressive innovations, nor even any strong competitors. It may be another five years or even a full decade before a strong case for a 6e is made.For all bitching the trolls perform here, the unfortunate reality for them is that not even WotC can dethrone 5e, and RPGs in general have really done very little towards challenging a design that did its best to have wide appeal and succeeded beyond everyone's expectations in that regard. While there's always going to be niche RPGs and RPGs that cater to smaller crowds, D&D was built as a whorish system designed to cater to the masses, and not even something like the misstep that is 5.5 making some pretty poor predictions on the way things were heading is likely going to be enough to unseat it.Luckily, most people don't obsess about what's popular and what isn't and will just play games they enjoy, so only trolls with chips on their shoulders will continue to suffer.
>>94826536So, it hasn't yet? The ability to homebrew has never been baked into the rules, just a logical extension of each group being different.>>94826546The only versions of D&D that are any good (BECMI and 2E before the Complete Class books) are games that Gary never touched.>>94826615You keep pretending like the ocean of piss was ever good.>>94826877That's not necessarily true, the Blume brothers, Ernie, etc. People who he DM'd for but never played under said he was a master of immersion and rolling with whatever weird shit you wanted to do. He was just also a very bad business man and a coked up asshole in his private life, and that clouds all of the positive memories.
>>948265094th Ed.
>>94827662I hate to bare the bad news but in the mid to late 00's A party looked like the right side if you were playing 3.5 Yeah I can get that free feat or I can see in the fucking dark
>>948282314e was the closest to being salvageable again. It was the only modern edition that understood that D&D is a game and went back to its roots of war games with extra steps, and not Table Top Second Life.
>>94828220People who played with him had a vested interest in pretending he was much better than he actually was, his own sons in particular. To what extent, you might ask? To what shameless extent?The Gygaxes tried to push the idea of the "Gygax Number", ie. how close you were to playing with Gary, with a 1 being playing with Gary himself, and a 2 being playing with someone who had played with Gary, and so on. They wanted to pretend this was some kind of point of pride, a number you could flaunt and use to pull rank at a convention, complete with the pyramid-esque element of "if you play with me, that will raise your Gygax number, and more people will then want to play with you".They explained this number while also trying to sell sessions with themselves as DMs, sometimes for ludicrous prices like $5000 for a session.
>>94828488The language you use and the opinion you present make it fairly clear you're bitter about being a tiny minority.Also, RPGs were a DEPARTURE from wargames. You might as well argue that you wish planes would stop flying and went back to their roots as bicycles.
>>948265094th
>>94828231>>94828602seething 3aboos
>>94828494>Gygax NumberLucas is a grifter who never actually played much with his father.yt0t8
>>94828512>DEPARTURETry again. You don't know as much as you think you do about this hobby.
>>94828512The language you use and the opinion you present make it fairly clear you're bitter about 3.e not being the favored edition to normalfags anymore.
>>94828714nta but vagueposting is a sign you aren't confident in your knowledge either
>>94828731Most RPGs are wargames. And the ones who aren't, are usually the farthest away from the core TTRPGs like D&D.
>>94828842>Most RPGs are wargames. That original edition was printed before Gygax realized what Arneson had handed over to him. He called it a wargames expansion because he didn't know what role playing games were yet. It wasn't until months later, when a community formed around the game and it became a sleeper hit, that Gygax went back, actually figured out what the game was, and then spent the next several years trying to patent the concept. He even coined the term "role playing game" in an attempt to make it clear that D&D was NOT a wargame and was in fact a brand new type of game and that it should be eligible for patents, its rules protected by copyright, and even the term "role playing game" should be protected by trademark. Thankfully, the courts simply upheld the rule of law that game rules can't be protected by copyright or patent, regardless of how innovative their rights holders believe they are.
>>94826509This picture is part of a set by Ayaswan, notoriously graphic guro scene artist. Lots of necrophilia, organs torn out and used and sex toys, and filling empty skulls with piss.I don't think you started this thread with pure intent.
>>94828231This, in the sense that it was the purest distillation of modern D&D and was happy to slaughter sacred cows to make it work.
>>94826509The moment they dropped the 5 saves.
>>94828979>RPGs are not wargames because Gygax needed to call it something else to patent itAs I said, most RPGs are wargames, they are not a departure, and a game can be more than 1 genre. Also,>He called it a wargames expansion because he didn't know what role playing games were yetThat's like saying that NetHack and ADOM are not hack and slash games because at the time they did know that they were roguelikes.
>>94828494They're just really committed to the "medieval" bit, with the greedy and corrupt interpretation of Apostolic Succession.
>>94827946D&D is the most popular game because TTRPGs are a dead hobby just like literature. There's no more growth.
>>94829175>As I said, most RPGs are wargamesDoubling down on being wrong? Also, no one cares what you say if you have no way of actually backing it up.RPGs are not war games. Most have very little to nothing to do with war, and even those that do typically only involve skirmish battles with one individual per player, which are considerably undersized and uncommon among actual war games.The roots of RPGs are not even just war games, with war games being themselves just a category that fall within the broader spectrum of parlor games, with many parlor games having stronger ties with theater games. RPGs really are nothing more than an amalgamation of classic parlor games, and its ridiculous to try and pretend that only one end of a large spectrum matters just because you personally happen to be a little shit.>That's like sayingCalling RPGs war games is like calling a man a monkey. The evolutionary paths diverged ages ago.
>>94826546Gygax made his own bed by fucking off to California a Second Time after the attempted Blume takeover and leaving Williams as his representative at TSR.Lets not kid ourselves his last great work for D&D as a game was AD&D and for D&D as a brand was the cartoon.
>>94829489Gygax had almost nothing to do with the cartoon aside from signing off on them using the D&D name. The cartoon was largely designed and even pitched several times before anyone even considered slapping the D&D name on it.
>>94829548>implying anything has come close to "eclipsing" DnD in the cultural zeitgeist Lol, lmao even.I don't get why you guys cope SO HARD over it being the most popular. No tabletop game "eclipses" dnd in any objective sense.
>>94829566Basic bitch trolls. You find them on every board. They just like to complain about whatever's popular, because it's the only way they ever get any kind of attention.
>>94829548Yes you are don't play tabletop games because you are retarded.
>>94829315>Calling RPGs war games is like calling a man a monkey. The evolutionary paths diverged ages ago.No, that's calling a man a primate. You are the little shit who doesn't understand the concept of wargames carrying more to it than the semantics of its name.Most RPGs can just be described as "a wargame where you roleplay as a character", I'm not even going to say "one individual per player" like you did, as most RPGs accommodate for a player controlling and roleplaying as multiple characters.Meanwhile, if you try to describe the other way around, you will have to explain that the focus is on combat, and that during it, the game is turn-based, on a grid map, you roll to hit, miniatures have classes and other innate bonuses of the kind, and the shitton of other innate minor rules of wargames.>many parlor games having stronger ties with theater gamesI really hope you are not implying that RPGs are more of a theater game than a wargame. Because if you did, this conversation would have ended already, since you would be appealing to the literal meaning of a roleplay, and not the actual baggage that comes when you say that a game is a RPG.
>>94826509Never?All the older editions are still there if the current thing is not to your taste, and there's a lot of D&D adjacent systems out there.Or you could just go and play GURPS.I'll be over here enjoying 3.5e for now.
>>94826509WotC's purchasing of the rights was the final nail in the coffin, but the funny thing about that saying is that things that are being nailed into a coffin are already dead and it was already too late for any talk of "saving" anything.
>>94829861Most ttrpgs don't have all that shit you are talking about. How do you not understand how specific of a niche you're in?
>>94826509>too late to salvage D&DNot actually a thing
>>94828220>So, it hasn't yet?It has, from the get-go actually.Try to look at the rulebooks, at what's actually written, and how they seem as though their concepts weren't designed with each other in mind. Every character option seems isolated from one another, when they're supposed to exist in the same world. Every monster, every enemy type, they're also conceptually isolated, when they're supposed to be able to exist in the same world. They're made with the possibility of occupying the same world in mind, but they don't reflect this whatsoever.It was always a cross-fanfic, a veritable tabletop Fortnite in which the so-called fathers of tabletop roleplay clashed glorified Funko Pops at each other to see if Han Solo could outwit the red dragon and win Vampirella's hand in marriage, only to dip out on her and pilot the Millennium Falcon to the Celestial Realm and hit on virgin goddesses for the rest of eternity.In case the point was lost on you, there was never any cohesion to it in the first place, never mind the problems with the mechanics themselves; though caster supremacy arguably didn't start until 3e.It was always made to make the DM rewrite it, because that's what its creators did. It's unstructured, inconsistent garbage, and doesn't deserve a single fraction of a cent.
>>948282314e was the closest to an actual game D&D ever got to being, but it was still trash.
>>94828291Free feat sounds like the pick.
>>94829861>No, that's calling a man a primate.Except it's not, because that's an accurate statement. Your statement, on the other hand, is wrong on every level it can be.>You are the little shit who doesn't understand the concept of wargames carrying more to it than the semantics of its name.You are the idiot trying to extend the umbrella of war games far beyond its reach.Here's the commonly understood definition, one even you could agree with.>A wargame is a strategy game in which two or more players command opposing armed forces in a simulation of an armed conflictThat is fairly narrow and specific type of game, and one that doesn't really encompass RPGs in all their variety, many which have no violence at all, and all of which far exceed that specific criteria.>Most RPGs can just be described as "a wargame where you roleplay as a character"Not even in the slightest. Can't call D&D that. Can't describe VtM as that. GURPS definitely not. CoC is a no. Ryuutama makes your premise laughable. The best I can give you is if you're trapped playing WFRP with the worst kind of GM.Even then, we still have you essentially trying to say "A plane is a car. A car plus wings" and thinking you're being anything more than the dumbest pissant when people tell you that you're a fucking moron for trying to say a plane is a car and needs to be as car-like as possible.
>>94829861>I really hope you are not implying that RPGs are more of a theater game than a wargameSome are. Many don't use miniatures, some don't even use dice, and many have only the most minimal rules required in order to facilitate role playing.Go look at Dread, and then tell me whether you think it's more of a theater game or anything like a war game.
>>94829566Unless we're talking about game design. Or balance. or art. Or book formatting. Or book quality. or Adventure quality. or being good for anything that isn't generic fantasy slop.
>>94831652Yes, you don't play at all because you are stupid and can't read.
>>94833164No u
>>94828291You were objectively better off picking the free feat because 95 percent of DMs forget to even mention the light level in an area in almsot all cases.
>>94828494That's pretty based. I'd pay 100 dollars to play with anyone who played with Gygax. Id pay 500 to play with gygax if he wasn't dead. Fuck it, I don't give a fuck. I live with my mom I have plenty of money. Before I got a gf I almost paid my old oneitis from high school 2000 dollars to have sex with me. 500 to play with the original DnD creator would be worth it I'd remember that shit forever, even if it was dogshit. Id run an entire party of characters in ODnD.
>>94830368Name a single roleplaying game that fits this retarded and vague ideal you've created.
>>94830375>>94830368Posted exactly one minute apart, never mind, this is a 4e fag shill spamming his "D&D is a kitchen sink except for the gay MOBA edition" nah, 4e reinforced the gay "adventuring day" concept and was generally a soulless wargame. Except the wargame never even took off. It failed completely.
>>94833734That's pretty sad.Also, we're talking 5,000 to play with one of his sons. Even you're not enough of a cringey sod to consider that.
This TJ is out of control.
